WEBVTT 00:00:02.970 --> 00:00:06.600 Matt Abrahams: To combat the inevitable forgetting of your content that 00:00:06.600 --> 00:00:11.820 your audience will experience, you need to define your 10% message. 00:00:12.345 --> 00:00:15.555 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:15.555 --> 00:00:17.265 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:17.625 --> 00:00:20.895 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:21.435 --> 00:00:24.735 Today I am really excited to speak with my friend Carmen Simon. 00:00:25.095 --> 00:00:29.265 Carmen is a cognitive neuroscientist, author, and speaker who studies 00:00:29.265 --> 00:00:32.715 the way the human brain processes and retains information. 00:00:33.075 --> 00:00:37.275 Her work focuses on helping professionals create memorable experiences that 00:00:37.275 --> 00:00:39.495 influence decision making and behavior. 00:00:39.945 --> 00:00:43.005 She's the author of Impossible to Ignore: Create Memorable 00:00:43.005 --> 00:00:44.655 Content to Influence Decisions. 00:00:45.195 --> 00:00:46.155 Well, welcome Carmen. 00:00:46.155 --> 00:00:47.805 I am so excited to have you here. 00:00:47.805 --> 00:00:49.485 It's about time you've been on the show. 00:00:49.485 --> 00:00:52.425 We've known each other for decades, and I'm really excited to have you here. 00:00:52.695 --> 00:00:54.855 Carmen Simon: Thank you so much for inviting me and welcome everyone. 00:00:54.975 --> 00:00:55.335 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:00:55.335 --> 00:00:56.364 So let's get started. 00:00:57.345 --> 00:01:01.019 In your research, in your book, Impossible to Ignore, you discuss the 00:01:01.019 --> 00:01:03.480 difference between attention and memory. 00:01:03.690 --> 00:01:07.050 You go further to say that memory is a byproduct of attention. 00:01:07.229 --> 00:01:10.800 How can a communicator design a message that's not just experienced 00:01:10.800 --> 00:01:14.370 in the moment, but is structured to create lasting memory that influences 00:01:14.370 --> 00:01:16.320 future decisions and behaviors? 00:01:16.690 --> 00:01:21.580 Carmen Simon: That's a strong question and a very deep one, because to aspire 00:01:21.580 --> 00:01:25.480 at creating memory traces in somebody else's brain, it sounds very good and 00:01:25.480 --> 00:01:30.250 noble on the surface, not so easy to do in practice, because we forget our 00:01:30.250 --> 00:01:32.590 lives almost as quickly as we live them. 00:01:32.800 --> 00:01:34.900 Matt Abrahams: More so as I get older, for sure. 00:01:35.050 --> 00:01:36.910 Carmen Simon: It's to say for all of us after the age of 00:01:36.910 --> 00:01:38.890 25, it's a downhill battle. 00:01:38.890 --> 00:01:40.270 It's not that it's impossible. 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:43.810 We have to try harder to first pay attention, and as a result of 00:01:43.810 --> 00:01:45.580 that, remember a little bit better. 00:01:45.910 --> 00:01:47.530 It's not easy to pay attention. 00:01:47.530 --> 00:01:51.010 Attention is one of the most misunderstood cognitive processes in the brain. 00:01:51.160 --> 00:01:54.429 The good news though, is that we don't pay attention just in one way. 00:01:54.429 --> 00:01:56.560 We pay attention in various ways. 00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:58.690 We have multiple attention systems. 00:01:58.899 --> 00:02:02.649 So one practical guideline that we can share with our audiences is, as 00:02:02.649 --> 00:02:06.880 you think about attention, your own or attracting other people's, think of 00:02:06.880 --> 00:02:08.620 it in terms of these two dimensions. 00:02:08.710 --> 00:02:10.449 One is, where are you looking? 00:02:10.695 --> 00:02:13.364 Because attention can be paid to the external world. 00:02:13.665 --> 00:02:16.304 What is something that has gotten your attention lately, for instance? 00:02:16.394 --> 00:02:18.825 Matt Abrahams: I'm spending a lot of time thinking about AI. 00:02:18.945 --> 00:02:20.804 Carmen Simon: Okay, so you've, uh, turned around. 00:02:20.804 --> 00:02:22.065 You're surrounded by tools. 00:02:22.065 --> 00:02:26.804 Some are text-based, some are voice-based, but the attention is going outward. 00:02:27.095 --> 00:02:29.045 Attention can also be paid inward. 00:02:29.345 --> 00:02:33.274 As you're thinking about AI, and perhaps you have some introspective thoughts, are 00:02:33.334 --> 00:02:35.015 these tools getting better than we are? 00:02:35.015 --> 00:02:36.515 Are they as creative as we are? 00:02:36.575 --> 00:02:39.185 Where are you looking internally or externally? 00:02:39.515 --> 00:02:43.975 And there's also another dimension, which is who's dictating the looking? 00:02:44.394 --> 00:02:48.475 Are you looking on your own accord, either outside or inside, or is 00:02:48.475 --> 00:02:50.095 someone prompting you to look? 00:02:50.364 --> 00:02:54.685 Because sometimes you may be passing by somebody or something and suddenly 00:02:54.894 --> 00:02:56.215 you just have to do a double take. 00:02:56.454 --> 00:02:58.945 At the intersection of these two variables, where are you looking 00:02:58.945 --> 00:03:02.185 and who's doing the looking or prompting it, you might think, well, 00:03:02.185 --> 00:03:06.355 I have a lot of control in terms of prompting someone to look outside. 00:03:06.655 --> 00:03:09.924 From that perspective, you can use some physical properties of a stimulus. 00:03:09.924 --> 00:03:13.054 Like for instance, if something is small all the time, then making 00:03:13.054 --> 00:03:15.364 something large will get attention. 00:03:15.575 --> 00:03:19.535 If something is quiet, then something that will be louder will get your attention. 00:03:19.834 --> 00:03:22.984 So think about some properties of a stimulus that you can manipulate on 00:03:22.984 --> 00:03:27.964 your own and that makes someone look, if you make them look, you're more likely 00:03:27.964 --> 00:03:30.035 to enable them to remember something. 00:03:30.545 --> 00:03:31.594 Matt Abrahams: That's really fascinating. 00:03:31.594 --> 00:03:35.494 So it's taking something and changing the way it normally appears. 00:03:35.554 --> 00:03:38.344 Our brains are wired for novelty or things that change, so 00:03:38.344 --> 00:03:39.394 that attracts our attention. 00:03:39.755 --> 00:03:42.545 Carmen Simon: Luckily, novelty is not the only thing that attracts our attention, 00:03:42.545 --> 00:03:46.625 but yes, if you can make something new, or sometimes you don't have to put so 00:03:46.625 --> 00:03:49.954 much pressure on yourselves, 'cause coming up with something new all the 00:03:49.954 --> 00:03:51.545 time, that would be very difficult. 00:03:51.755 --> 00:03:56.704 But I want to make a distinction between these two terms, novelty and surprise. 00:03:56.945 --> 00:04:00.214 Novelty is something that you haven't seen or experienced 00:04:00.214 --> 00:04:01.924 before, very hard to come up with. 00:04:02.225 --> 00:04:07.385 Surprise is something that you have seen or experienced before but did not expect. 00:04:07.920 --> 00:04:11.340 And the reason why that still works on attention is because the difference 00:04:11.340 --> 00:04:14.700 between what you expect and what happens is how the brain learns. 00:04:14.910 --> 00:04:17.550 So biologically speaking, we don't really like surprises, because 00:04:17.550 --> 00:04:20.700 what is a surprise but a failure to predict what happens next. 00:04:21.060 --> 00:04:24.780 But we can afford not to pay attention to surprises because a brain that 00:04:24.780 --> 00:04:28.770 predicts the next step is a brain that survives a little bit longer. 00:04:28.980 --> 00:04:32.310 So for example, I remember seeing an image in a presentation that 00:04:32.310 --> 00:04:36.450 somebody had created of an eggshell, and out of it comes this little pug. 00:04:37.050 --> 00:04:37.920 You don't expect that. 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:38.970 You have seen the pug before. 00:04:38.970 --> 00:04:42.060 You have seen an eggshell before, but not in that combination. 00:04:42.060 --> 00:04:46.680 So as a practical guideline, wonder, can you look at what your audiences 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:48.630 are looking at and expecting? 00:04:48.990 --> 00:04:51.360 And at some point, twist the familiar. 00:04:51.780 --> 00:04:54.270 Matt Abrahams: And it doesn't have to be as dramatic as having a dog come 00:04:54.270 --> 00:04:57.380 out of an eggshell, but it could be anything that's slightly surprising. 00:04:57.760 --> 00:05:01.830 And by virtue of helping guide people's attention, does that necessarily 00:05:01.830 --> 00:05:03.210 mean that they'll remember it more? 00:05:03.590 --> 00:05:06.710 Carmen Simon: Typically, so if you can't have attention, you are increasing 00:05:06.710 --> 00:05:10.430 the chances of memory and what is science, but the increased likelihood 00:05:10.430 --> 00:05:14.030 that something is going to happen, is it going to happen all the time? 00:05:14.030 --> 00:05:17.390 Definitely not, and it's unfortunate because I would love if a hundred 00:05:17.390 --> 00:05:20.150 percent of attention turned into a hundred percent of memory, 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:22.250 and that is not always the case. 00:05:22.550 --> 00:05:27.890 Often attention is combined with some stronger emotion too, because you may 00:05:27.890 --> 00:05:32.070 see the pug and the eggshell, but maybe you don't really care about pugs at all. 00:05:32.070 --> 00:05:33.420 You're thinking, ah, yeah, whatever. 00:05:33.630 --> 00:05:37.170 And those segments are not really all that easy to come by. 00:05:37.170 --> 00:05:40.590 Like I remember a classic study that was done on a campus and somebody 00:05:40.590 --> 00:05:46.230 had put a clown on a unicycle, and they wanted to see how much attention 00:05:46.230 --> 00:05:48.060 would that clown on a unicycle get? 00:05:48.390 --> 00:05:52.034 And because people were walking, looking at their phones, maybe a 00:05:52.094 --> 00:05:56.534 fraction of those paid attention, even those who did look weren't necessarily 00:05:56.534 --> 00:05:58.125 tuned into what was happening. 00:05:58.125 --> 00:06:00.615 So even though visually you're seeing it, you're not really 00:06:00.615 --> 00:06:02.354 processing all that fully. 00:06:02.594 --> 00:06:05.385 So therefore the memory for it is not as strong. 00:06:05.565 --> 00:06:09.934 So imagine I look with humility at business content because hardly ever are 00:06:09.934 --> 00:06:14.385 we in the position to create something as exciting as a clown on a unicycle. 00:06:14.625 --> 00:06:17.925 So if that doesn't get attention, it's very clear that 00:06:17.925 --> 00:06:19.065 we have to work hard at it. 00:06:19.475 --> 00:06:21.155 Matt Abrahams: In the business context, people are often 00:06:21.155 --> 00:06:22.505 distracted by other things. 00:06:22.505 --> 00:06:25.415 So actually just getting that focus in the first place is hard. 00:06:25.535 --> 00:06:28.655 Carmen Simon: So true, multitasking and distractions are quite 00:06:28.655 --> 00:06:31.745 often the biggest culprits to attention and therefore memory. 00:06:31.895 --> 00:06:36.905 So in a humbling kind of way, look at what people are doing, deviate 00:06:36.905 --> 00:06:41.485 from the pattern, and a step before that would be what we call priming. 00:06:41.485 --> 00:06:44.455 So get the brain in a ready state to pay attention. 00:06:44.755 --> 00:06:47.815 One of the reasons we may not observe the clown on a unicycle is 00:06:47.815 --> 00:06:50.844 because we're not ready for something that's a little extra special. 00:06:51.025 --> 00:06:53.935 So priming means getting the brain to process the stimulus 00:06:53.935 --> 00:06:56.844 so that the next stimulus can be processed a little bit differently. 00:06:57.055 --> 00:07:00.474 So if you sacrifice some of your darlings, let's just say, you're 00:07:00.474 --> 00:07:03.115 coming up with some of these surprising elements, something that's a little bit 00:07:03.115 --> 00:07:07.630 more unusual, put those elements right before something that really has to get 00:07:07.630 --> 00:07:09.610 attention and therefore be memorable. 00:07:09.610 --> 00:07:12.070 So don't waste those within a sequence. 00:07:12.280 --> 00:07:16.000 Place them strategically before points that really have to get attention. 00:07:16.280 --> 00:07:17.240 Matt Abrahams: Really interesting. 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:21.500 So this notion of priming and disrupting patterns can be really powerful and 00:07:21.675 --> 00:07:25.065 as somebody who does what I do, uh, helping people craft stories, we 00:07:25.065 --> 00:07:28.335 often talk about the emotional arc or the logic of the story, but what 00:07:28.335 --> 00:07:31.575 I hear you is adding something else to it, which is thinking about where 00:07:31.575 --> 00:07:35.625 those things that are most surprising fall, and what you can do beforehand 00:07:35.625 --> 00:07:36.975 to get people prepared for them. 00:07:37.185 --> 00:07:40.755 That adds a whole nother dimension, but one that could be very valuable. 00:07:40.785 --> 00:07:43.155 Carmen Simon: Very valuable because everything has a sequence. 00:07:43.155 --> 00:07:45.255 Something happens first, and then something else happens 00:07:45.255 --> 00:07:46.275 and something else happens. 00:07:46.575 --> 00:07:50.775 And I'm noticing in my neuroscience research quite often it is very important 00:07:50.775 --> 00:07:52.605 to get their brain in a ready state. 00:07:52.995 --> 00:07:55.875 Matt Abrahams: Gimme an example of something you could do to prime 00:07:55.875 --> 00:07:59.545 somebody for a typical business presentation that somebody might do. 00:07:59.555 --> 00:08:00.665 What might I do to help? 00:08:00.990 --> 00:08:02.490 Carmen Simon: Let's think of some primers first. 00:08:02.490 --> 00:08:05.850 There's some generic ones, just so you can recognize the power of priming. 00:08:06.030 --> 00:08:09.660 So for instance, let's just say that I wanted you to process the word table 00:08:09.750 --> 00:08:13.740 a little bit easier, if I said to you the word chair, you'd be a little 00:08:13.740 --> 00:08:15.210 bit more ready for the word table. 00:08:15.210 --> 00:08:17.970 But I, if I said to you the word tiger, you would not be 00:08:17.970 --> 00:08:19.470 all that ready for the next one. 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:23.160 In business content, let's just say that you want people to remember the fact 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:27.840 that if they use your services, they will be prepared for AI, for instance. 00:08:28.170 --> 00:08:31.650 You could have a semantic prime, you could have an emotional prime. 00:08:31.770 --> 00:08:36.210 A strong story can be a good primer to an otherwise abstract message. 00:08:36.539 --> 00:08:39.150 Matt Abrahams: I'm reminded of a conversation I had with Robert Cialdini, 00:08:39.150 --> 00:08:42.420 and he talked about pre-suasion, the things that we can do in advance 00:08:42.420 --> 00:08:43.680 to make somebody more likely. 00:08:43.680 --> 00:08:48.210 And he gave the example of a mattress company who on their website had pictures 00:08:48.210 --> 00:08:52.920 of clouds, and the idea was that our beds are very comfortable and soft. 00:08:52.920 --> 00:08:56.190 And so you're priming the brain to think about that, and I 00:08:56.190 --> 00:08:57.115 find this really fascinating. 00:08:57.820 --> 00:09:00.700 You argue that the brain is naturally forgetful. 00:09:00.970 --> 00:09:04.510 How can a speaker proactively build retention moments into their 00:09:04.510 --> 00:09:08.530 presentations or communication using specific, perhaps linguistic or 00:09:08.530 --> 00:09:12.160 visual cues, to ensure that the most critical information isn't forgotten? 00:09:12.704 --> 00:09:16.005 Carmen Simon: What I'm noticing in my research, no exception, is after 48 00:09:16.035 --> 00:09:20.234 hours, people forget 90% or more of the content that they're exposed to. 00:09:20.444 --> 00:09:23.745 Beyond the fancy environment of it all, beyond the handwriting of 00:09:23.745 --> 00:09:26.325 it all, people naturally forget. 00:09:26.325 --> 00:09:28.395 We haven't merged with AI yet. 00:09:28.575 --> 00:09:31.785 We have human brains, and those brains are fallible. 00:09:32.055 --> 00:09:35.055 I'm not so worried about the 90% that is forgotten. 00:09:35.204 --> 00:09:39.930 I am worried about the 10%, let's consider it a metaphorical number because sometimes 00:09:39.930 --> 00:09:41.790 people forget way more, by the way. 00:09:42.150 --> 00:09:46.080 Every so often I'm noticing increase just slightly, not by much. 00:09:46.290 --> 00:09:49.380 So the metaphorical 10% tends to stay there across time. 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:53.160 You need it to stay there because people make decisions in your favor based on what 00:09:53.160 --> 00:09:55.130 they remember, not on what they forget. 00:09:55.380 --> 00:09:59.985 But what I worry about that 10% is that it is random unless you take care of it. 00:10:00.075 --> 00:10:04.005 What I mean by that is if you present to a group of 20 people, one person 00:10:04.005 --> 00:10:07.095 will take away one 10% message, another one will take another one, 00:10:07.095 --> 00:10:08.355 and another one will take another one. 00:10:08.505 --> 00:10:13.385 And the reason sometimes decisions in your favor are slower is because not everyone 00:10:13.385 --> 00:10:15.845 walks away remembering the same things. 00:10:16.145 --> 00:10:21.695 So you're not just after a memory or after a unified memory across a group. 00:10:21.695 --> 00:10:24.785 Decisions are hardly ever individual, usually they're social. 00:10:24.995 --> 00:10:30.900 So as a practical technique ahead of time, wonder what is your 10% message. 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:36.120 So many people aspire at attention and memory, but very few really know 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:37.710 what they want to be memorable for. 00:10:38.040 --> 00:10:41.520 So as you're listening to us have this conversation, ask the question 00:10:41.579 --> 00:10:43.860 always, what is my 10% message? 00:10:44.099 --> 00:10:48.150 And if you had the courage to call your audience members in 48 hours and say, 00:10:48.390 --> 00:10:50.069 what do you remember from that segment? 00:10:50.400 --> 00:10:52.350 Would you be satisfied with their answer? 00:10:52.410 --> 00:10:55.830 You're only satisfied with the answer if you know your 10% message 00:10:55.920 --> 00:10:57.000 and then there is no secret. 00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:58.740 Repetition is the mother of memory. 00:10:58.980 --> 00:11:01.560 You'll come back to that message again and again. 00:11:01.800 --> 00:11:04.950 Like for instance, if we had to create a 10% message for this show 00:11:04.950 --> 00:11:09.510 right now, let's call it control your 10% and one criteria then for 00:11:09.510 --> 00:11:11.730 controlling your 10% is you clarify it. 00:11:12.075 --> 00:11:14.925 Then you repeat it more often than you think. 00:11:15.194 --> 00:11:18.885 In my studies, I'm showing that in a five minute presentation, a repetition 00:11:18.885 --> 00:11:22.575 of four times is necessary for you to be in charge what they take away, 00:11:22.905 --> 00:11:28.665 10 minutes repetition of at least six times, 20 minutes, at least 12 times. 00:11:28.875 --> 00:11:31.785 And the reason I think people are not so comfortable with repetition 00:11:31.785 --> 00:11:35.565 is because they think I'm approaching very smart audiences, especially 00:11:35.565 --> 00:11:38.984 people in tech, especially people globally who have brilliant minds. 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:43.460 Even those brilliant minds still have human brains and their memory 00:11:43.460 --> 00:11:45.620 is just as valuable as yours. 00:11:45.890 --> 00:11:47.210 Repeat your 10%. 00:11:47.810 --> 00:11:50.990 Matt Abrahams: This notion of picking what is your 10% and doubling down and 00:11:50.990 --> 00:11:53.070 really focusing, really, really important. 00:11:53.660 --> 00:11:57.920 Does that repetition have to be saying the same thing exactly the same way? 00:11:57.920 --> 00:12:01.430 Or can I say it, and then tell a story that reflects it or use 00:12:01.430 --> 00:12:03.080 an analogy that represents it? 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:06.110 Does the repetition have to be the same words to get the effect? 00:12:06.700 --> 00:12:09.580 Carmen Simon: I like where you're going to in the sense of you're using the 00:12:09.580 --> 00:12:11.560 repetition, you're using the analogy. 00:12:11.770 --> 00:12:14.530 You can use all of the other techniques you want, as long as 00:12:14.530 --> 00:12:17.890 once you're done with those, you come back to the exact same message. 00:12:18.160 --> 00:12:20.440 Don't leave it to chance and don't leave it to them because 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.190 especially from a beautiful story, people can extract so many other 00:12:24.190 --> 00:12:26.320 meanings and so many other nuances. 00:12:26.395 --> 00:12:29.635 So they can take it in many directions, but no, we want to come back to the 00:12:29.635 --> 00:12:33.475 same main message, control your 10%, for instance, for our conversation. 00:12:33.475 --> 00:12:36.954 Matt Abrahams: So you can use a variety of tools for repetition, but you definitely 00:12:36.954 --> 00:12:38.935 wanna say the same thing a few times. 00:12:38.935 --> 00:12:43.465 So if I have to say it 12 times for a 20 minute presentation, maybe I actually say 00:12:43.465 --> 00:12:47.095 the literal words three or four times, but I use all these other examples to fit in. 00:12:47.125 --> 00:12:50.095 Carmen Simon: You can use the other examples, but come back 12 times because 00:12:50.095 --> 00:12:53.215 when you want people to decide in your favor, they will use their memory. 00:12:53.485 --> 00:12:57.715 And if you are in a competitive space and people don't remember you and a 00:12:57.715 --> 00:13:02.455 message associated with you verbatim, what happens is that you take away gist. 00:13:02.785 --> 00:13:06.415 And if they take gist away from you and gist from somebody else, and gist from 00:13:06.415 --> 00:13:10.465 somebody else, after 48 hours and beyond, people will not know who said what. 00:13:10.975 --> 00:13:11.845 And what do they do? 00:13:11.845 --> 00:13:14.965 They tend to give credibility to the more familiar source. 00:13:15.235 --> 00:13:18.895 And if you're not a familiar source, that means you have spent that time 00:13:19.105 --> 00:13:23.485 creating somebody else's message and they take the credit and that really hurts. 00:13:23.855 --> 00:13:24.694 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:13:25.084 --> 00:13:27.574 Carmen, I knew this was gonna be a fantastic conversation. 00:13:27.574 --> 00:13:28.715 You did not disappoint. 00:13:28.834 --> 00:13:31.925 You've given me so many tools to think about how I can communicate 00:13:31.925 --> 00:13:36.125 so that I get my 10% message across and engage audiences more. 00:13:37.385 --> 00:13:39.755 Before we end, I like to ask three questions, as you well know. 00:13:39.755 --> 00:13:43.055 One I create just for you, and the other two are similar across everybody. 00:13:43.055 --> 00:13:43.895 Are you, you up for this? 00:13:43.955 --> 00:13:44.430 Carmen Simon: Sure, sure. 00:13:44.795 --> 00:13:48.725 Matt Abrahams: You do a masterful job in your explanation of being 00:13:48.725 --> 00:13:53.495 very descriptive, of using lots of examples, you practice very well the 00:13:53.495 --> 00:13:55.265 things that you teach and have studied. 00:13:55.415 --> 00:13:57.005 Is that something that you really think through? 00:13:57.005 --> 00:13:58.085 Is that just natural? 00:13:58.085 --> 00:14:00.245 And how did you learn to do that with so little effort? 00:14:00.830 --> 00:14:02.480 Carmen Simon: It's, um, often a combination. 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:05.840 Some things come naturally, but some things have to come a bit 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.860 more deliberately because in our practice we help a lot of clients 00:14:10.070 --> 00:14:12.080 do the same for their audiences. 00:14:12.290 --> 00:14:15.560 In our business, as you very well know, we have audiences with audiences. 00:14:15.620 --> 00:14:20.120 It's very easy to start speaking about your own features and benefits 00:14:20.125 --> 00:14:23.930 and things that get you excited at the expense of what this means 00:14:23.930 --> 00:14:25.835 to you, the secondary audience. 00:14:26.450 --> 00:14:31.250 So it's always a reminder to put it through their lens, sit where 00:14:31.250 --> 00:14:34.670 they're sitting, wear a few of their shoes, the customer's shoes, 00:14:34.670 --> 00:14:36.230 would be even more, more exciting. 00:14:36.785 --> 00:14:40.655 I really enjoy also examples because if I have some good examples and 00:14:40.655 --> 00:14:44.375 stories, and you are a believer in great stories, with each time that 00:14:44.375 --> 00:14:48.785 you speak, it's almost an extra excitement moment for your own energy. 00:14:49.055 --> 00:14:53.495 So I'm hoping one of the practical lessons from this conversation that we have, as 00:14:53.495 --> 00:14:57.395 you control your 10%, is to challenge yourself to say, how can I maintain 00:14:57.395 --> 00:15:00.365 my own motivation and have that be up? 00:15:00.395 --> 00:15:03.365 Because people will sense lack of energy very quickly. 00:15:03.665 --> 00:15:07.605 And I remember this interview with the longest lasting Broadway 00:15:07.605 --> 00:15:09.135 show, the Phantom of the Opera. 00:15:09.195 --> 00:15:11.595 Some people think Cats, but it's actually the Phantom of the Opera. 00:15:11.595 --> 00:15:15.915 So a journalist interviews the person who has played in the show for so many 00:15:15.915 --> 00:15:20.295 years, and his first question is, how many times have you done this role? 00:15:20.645 --> 00:15:23.865 1764 at the time of the interview. 00:15:24.165 --> 00:15:29.235 So this person had to repeat his own 10% message 1700 times. 00:15:29.595 --> 00:15:31.785 How do you master that much repetition? 00:15:31.995 --> 00:15:36.255 For him it was highly sexual because every two weeks he says we get a new Christine. 00:15:36.585 --> 00:15:39.585 So that's why, how he was keeping his own motivation going. 00:15:39.645 --> 00:15:43.155 But the lesson for all of us is look for some small elements. 00:15:43.155 --> 00:15:45.795 It could be the stories, it could be the practical applications. 00:15:45.795 --> 00:15:48.285 It could be something very concrete, but something has to 00:15:48.285 --> 00:15:49.395 keep your own motivation up. 00:15:50.175 --> 00:15:51.555 Matt Abrahams: I very much appreciate that. 00:15:51.555 --> 00:15:55.335 I teach very similar content and have for many years, and what helps me keep 00:15:55.335 --> 00:15:59.145 it fresh is reminding myself that it's new for the other folks and what can 00:15:59.145 --> 00:16:01.155 I do to help land it best for them. 00:16:01.580 --> 00:16:05.060 Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:16:05.420 --> 00:16:08.090 Carmen Simon: I know we could go for the public figures, but here's one that's 00:16:08.090 --> 00:16:12.290 still in my mind years later, I wanna say it's been at least five years. 00:16:12.680 --> 00:16:13.520 So picture it. 00:16:13.880 --> 00:16:18.410 I'm in Poland and I'm visiting the Salt Mine, so I'm not a big tour group 00:16:18.410 --> 00:16:22.250 person, but the only way to go and visit the thing is to join a group. 00:16:22.550 --> 00:16:28.105 And as I'm here at the entrance, I'm part of maybe 10, 12 other people, and there 00:16:28.105 --> 00:16:33.355 comes a tour guide and the first thing she says is, welcome to this three hour tour. 00:16:33.535 --> 00:16:36.895 And I just want to fall over because I'm thinking not only am I not a tour 00:16:36.895 --> 00:16:40.885 group person, but three freaking hours of this thing, there's just no way. 00:16:41.035 --> 00:16:43.705 And let me just tell you that she was one of the most inspiring 00:16:43.735 --> 00:16:46.660 communicators I had seen in a long time. 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:50.050 I had to go all the way to a Polish salt mine to find it. 00:16:50.260 --> 00:16:53.350 But she applied many of these techniques that you and I are talking about and 00:16:53.350 --> 00:16:55.240 you very likely teach in your classes. 00:16:55.420 --> 00:16:57.700 The storytelling was just top notch. 00:16:57.970 --> 00:17:02.160 Not only just was it top notch in the sense that stories existed, they were 00:17:02.160 --> 00:17:06.840 being said with good inflections and the timing and the punchlines and the 00:17:06.840 --> 00:17:10.170 priming of it all, like before a good story would already be ready, that 00:17:10.170 --> 00:17:12.090 something exciting is going to happen. 00:17:12.090 --> 00:17:14.190 Remember priming the brand and getting it ready. 00:17:14.370 --> 00:17:17.940 So I think we can find inspiration from so many people. 00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:21.180 Like next time, maybe you go to Starbucks, pay attention to how 00:17:21.210 --> 00:17:24.540 that person might have a story and tell it because they could be a good 00:17:24.540 --> 00:17:26.010 communicator that can inspire you. 00:17:26.355 --> 00:17:30.855 Matt Abrahams: I love finding great communicators in average places. 00:17:31.035 --> 00:17:36.255 There was a gentleman who ran a barbecue next to a car wash I used to go to. 00:17:36.465 --> 00:17:39.735 He was one of the best storytellers I've ever heard, and I would 00:17:39.735 --> 00:17:42.735 just wash my car a lot because I just liked connecting with him. 00:17:43.185 --> 00:17:43.935 Final question. 00:17:44.115 --> 00:17:48.435 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:17:48.735 --> 00:17:49.095 Carmen Simon: Ooh. 00:17:49.125 --> 00:17:54.105 So the three ingredients would be tied by the one main message, control your 10%. 00:17:54.405 --> 00:17:56.475 Underneath that, what would be the ingredients? 00:17:56.535 --> 00:17:57.825 Make sure you clarify it. 00:17:57.915 --> 00:18:02.415 If you know what your 10% message is, your audience is also more likely to 00:18:02.415 --> 00:18:04.725 know, nebulous to you, nebulous to them. 00:18:05.025 --> 00:18:08.175 Number two, we are talking about the element of surprise. 00:18:08.555 --> 00:18:11.975 Associate some of your messages, supporting points for your 10% 00:18:11.975 --> 00:18:15.155 message with something that jolts the brain out of its habitation. 00:18:15.425 --> 00:18:17.345 And number three, there is no secret. 00:18:17.345 --> 00:18:19.655 Repetition is the mother of memory. 00:18:19.805 --> 00:18:24.275 Come back to that 10% more often than you feel comfortable with, and that's 00:18:24.275 --> 00:18:28.050 how you are deliberate about your 10% message and you do not leave it to chance. 00:18:28.675 --> 00:18:33.175 Matt Abrahams: Clarify, surprise, repeat, and in that you will really 00:18:33.175 --> 00:18:36.865 deliver on your 10% message and make your message more memorable. 00:18:36.865 --> 00:18:41.305 And Carmen, our time together, I hope, will live in the memories of all of our 00:18:41.305 --> 00:18:43.615 listeners, certainly etched in my memory. 00:18:43.645 --> 00:18:46.615 Thank you for your time and I'm super glad we finally got to do this. 00:18:46.675 --> 00:18:47.575 Carmen Simon: Thank you so much everyone. 00:18:50.365 --> 00:18:52.135 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:18:52.135 --> 00:18:53.480 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:18:54.290 --> 00:18:56.900 To learn more about communication and neuroscience, please listen 00:18:56.900 --> 00:18:59.060 to episode 39 with David Eagleman. 00:18:59.510 --> 00:19:03.575 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham. 00:19:04.430 --> 00:19:05.990 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:19:06.170 --> 00:19:08.540 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:19:09.020 --> 00:19:12.230 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:19:12.470 --> 00:19:14.570 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:19:14.840 --> 00:19:19.640 Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and check out fastersmarter.io for 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:23.750 deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. 00:19:24.140 --> 00:19:27.500 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:31.440 AMAs, Ask Matt Anything, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.