The best salespeople are people who care about the well-being of their customers. They wanna sell something that's worthwhile and meaningful. If you wanna provide a value and and service, then you're coming at it from a a different place. And in my opinion, those are your typically good salespeople.

Hi, everyone. You're listening to Skating DevTools. I'm joined today by Guy Zarega from Cyborg, an AI startup in New York. He was my old boss at Stack Overflow when he ran the whole of sales and marketing. He was someone who I looked up to a lot, learned a lot from, and have wanted to have on the show for a very long time.

Double down on your success. As you hire salespeople, they'll find the market for you. Like, get some repeatable actions and then hire experienced salespeople. An experienced sales leader goes a long way.

Today, I'm joined by Guy Zaregar. And Guy hired me when I worked very briefly at Stack Overflow, and Guy was the EVP of Revenue at Stack Overflow. So they're kind of the top dog of sales

and

marketing. And even though I was there for a very short time, I quickly learned that Guy really knew his stuff and I learned so much from you, Guy. So really happy for you to come on today.

Well well, thanks for having me, thanks thanks for the kind words. Appreciate it.

Yeah. One of the things that I remember from you, and I kind of always have it in the back of my head, first rule of sales is know your audience. And I I remember you used to, like, kind of hammer this into us all the time. Why why is it the first rule of sales?

So so I I first off, thank you for remembering that. Right? And and one of the things I try to do when I lead is develop things that are really easy to remember. Right? Very simple rules of thumb.

And and the number of rule of sales, know your audience is critical because our job is to communicate. Right? And so the way that I speak to a five year old is different from how I speak to a 25 year old to a 50 year old, from a business person to a creative person to a technical person. Right? So what I need to understand is the person in front of me dictates how I communicate.

The idea that I wanna treat or communicate to people the way that I wanna be treated and communicated to doesn't apply because not all people are like me. Right? So the the real way to think about is how does Jack prefer to be spoken to? How does Paula or Sue or Johnny? Right?

You you kinda say, well, who are they? Where do they come from? And and, you know, as a fallback, yes, we treat people the way we wanna be treated, but then as you get to know them, then you treat them the way they wanna be It is sort of the, in my opinion, the appropriate and best way to to move forward.

Yeah. And I remember we used to do, like, a lot of kind of coaches or like you'd listen to a lot of calls where we'd we'd but we'd manage to book a call. I think we would record it and then we'd play it back in like these meetings. What what do you what do you see like the kind of common mistakes that people make?

There's a couple things. And, you know, one of the other ideas of what I try to anchor people to, which is the number one complaint about salespeople is we don't listen. And and so when we say we don't listen, what what does that mean? That means that either you're talking and I'm not hearing what you're saying, or I haven't stopped talking and giving you a chance giving you a chance to speak. Right?

Yeah.

But either way, I'm not listening. And, you know, that's a really important message for any salesperson to hear because what happens is when you're not being heard, it it depends on who you are. It can strike a a deep emotional trigger, which can make you feel like you're not valued. That that what you think or or saying is not important. And any salesperson that's creating that environment is never gonna be successful.

And in the in the same way that if I was a a doctor dispensing, you know, lifesaving advice or medication, if the patient is not being heard, you know, like, how can I do that effectively? Like, you know, that's not a great experience for the patient. And so we we think about the role of the salesperson. You know, the the best way to ensure that that you are listening is to ask good questions and and allow the prospect client to describe and talk. And and what I find is that when you do that and open ended questions are best.

And when you do that, people will come forward and and share what their challenges are. And then you could be of service and provide value and provide a solution. But if they never describe it because you're talking too much, what you're doing is you're you're making them feel defensive, and that that's the worst, possible equation to create.

Because then they won't wanna tell you anything. They shut down.

Yeah. Clients shut down, become nonresponsive, and that you know, you you go nowhere with that.

Scaling DevTools is sponsored by WorkOS. If things start going well, some of your customers are gonna start asking for enterprise features. Things like SSO, skin provisioning, role based access control. These things are hard to build and you could get stuck spending all your time doing that instead of actually making a great dev tool. That's why WorkOS exists.

They help you with all of those enterprise features, and they're trusted by OpenAI, Vercel, and Perplexity. Here's what Kyle from Depot has to say about WorkOS.

We use WorkOS to effectively add all of the SSO and SCIM to Depot. So for us, we can effectively offer SSO and SCIM, and it's like two clicks of a button, and we don't ever have to think about it. It's like one of the best features that we can add to Depot, and it's super affordable, which effectively allows us to, like, break the SSO tax joke. And essentially say, like, you can have SSO and SCIM as, an add on onto your monthly plan. So it really allows smaller startups to essentially offer like that enterprise feature without a huge engineering investment behind it.

Like, it's literally we can just use a tool behind the scenes, and our life is exponentially easier.

Thanks again, WorkOS. Back to the episode. So I guess like a lot of my questions and my experience was because I was working as a SDR sales development rep. So person booking meetings and we were this was first Stack Overflow's Teams product. So for people that don't know, it's like a internal version of Stack Overflow.

So it's actually selling to developers compared to a lot of Stack Overflow's other products, which at the time were like talent and advertising stuff. So I guess, like, the first question will be around, like, SDR stuff. And what did you see, like, the best the people that were, like, best at kind of booking booking meetings and progressing that onto the next stage doing?

Yeah. I mean, I so to me, the folks that have the most success as an SDR, which by the way is the hardest job in sales, and it's always interesting that that's where you start. Right? Like, that's where you start. So if you can make it as an SDR, you'll be a very good salesperson.

If you don't make it as an SDR, it doesn't mean you can't be a good salesperson. That's the other thing too that people don't know. But having said that, you know, so just let's just use the Stack Overflow team's model for the for discussion purposes, which is you mentioned, hey. You know, we were trying to engage developers. When you think about a developer, it's it's, you know, to, again, falling back on this idea of know your audience.

So if you're selling to a developer, what what do we know about developers? Developers code in a language. But if I said to somebody else outside of the technical norms, right, outside of, you know, technical communities, I mentioned language. They go, oh, Spanish, French. They would immediately go to a spoken word.

Right? But to a developer, language is a written word. And so what my my my interpretation of that is that developers and it's also funny. Like, developers on Teams or in Slack will actually be saying, oh, I'm talking to so and so, but they're actually typing. Yeah.

But I'm talking to Jack. No. You're not. You're you're actually texting. You're you're typing to Jack.

You're not talking to Jack. And so what that what that really means is developers prefer the written word than the spoken word. So if you think you're gonna call up and talk to a developer and get them into your product, you're probably not choosing the channel or the, you know, the communication medium that's gonna be appealing to them. Yeah. And and so that's the first thing is, hey.

They wanna be re they wanna be connected to via email. Right? Send send a send a good email. Then the other side of it is developers are trained to look for errors. Like, they they they're trained to look for bugs in code.

So guess what? You send an email that's grammatically incorrect, poorly written

Factually incorrect.

It's gonna have no value. No weight. Like, you lose credibility instantly. And so what that means is you gotta be really thoughtful and intelligent and approach it in a way that's gonna be reasonable and and appealing. So you don't have to be written.

You know, you you wanna keep the the the sales speak, the marketing stuff, you know, to a minimum and just talk point blank. And and the good news for Stack Overflow by the time you joined is that we had become a a very strong brand within the developer community. So they're more likely to respond to something from Stack Overflow. But that's not always the case, and so how do you, you know, break through the noise? It's it's by being creative and thoughtful about what it is that they've done, and it's tough.

But the more you know the person that you're trying to connect with, the better your chances are. And and so, yeah, again, kinda anchoring back to the silly, which is real. So the the first step is real, research and initial outreach. So research. Research the person.

Because of the Internet, we now have the ability to get to know that person as much as possible. So do the research and initial reach out. I mean, when I started, there was no Internet. Like, you were cold calling. Like, you had no idea who this person was.

Sometimes you would have a name that you could not tell if it was gonna be a male or female, and you you were complete you know, just no idea. And you're always like, oh, I was expecting to speak to a woman. It's a man. Or I was expecting it to be a man. It's a woman.

And you you can't see the person. It was just complete way more difficult and challenging. But people did actually it's before caller ID, so people did pick up their phones. And that's a whole another, you know, layer of things. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That that makes sense. I think like, in the short time that I had, the only successful one I think I had was like, when it was like, send this preposterously long researched email and got a reply and it was like, free spent. It's a very bad idea.

I I never, like, it seemed to work, but I never really realized if it was, like, a good idea to spend, like, an hour on an email or something. The

the short answer is not a good idea, but but the idea the idea of customization is the good is the right idea. And the other thing is that the more that you do it, right, like anything, you get better and faster at it. Yeah. And and you start to understand the things that that work. And when you put together put the time into an email, someone who's getting that email is a give it thirty seconds, they'll recognize, hey.

This person's put some time into it. And and that that increases your chances of a response dramatically.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, kind of stepping out from, like, SDR. So say, like, you get you have a positive first meeting. I I know this could mean many different things, but I'm gonna let you run with that.

But say the the first meeting goes well, what do the best people do after their first, like, good meeting?

So there there's an idea, and and so many of these sort of quotes or, you know, principles or rules or guidelines that I had adopted over the years always come from some other place, you know, in my experiences. And I was a competitive athlete for a lot of years, and and I had the good fortune of working with an Olympic coach. And and he used to say that you have to earn the right to win. And and so I I translate that. They you have to earn the business.

Right? And so what does that mean? That means that after a a good call, you sent a summary of what was discussed and what what we agreed as to next steps. Right? And and that also opens up the the the sort of infamous ABCs of sales.

Right? Always be closing, which is a complete misnomer. It's it there is truth to that, but it's actually always be getting commitment or always be closing on next steps. It's not like closing the sale because very in today's business world, there's no such thing as a one call close, really. It's made up a bunch of different commitments along the way to the big commitments when they sign and and yet you have a deal.

And so to me, that's what good salespeople do. They they send a summary, agree on next steps, follow-up, and they earn the business. And they advocate they become an advocate for the person that they're trying to serve and, you know, deliver a solution to. For me, the best salespeople are people who care about the well-being of their customers. You know?

And and that's you know, that they wanna sell something that's worthwhile and meaningful. Right? Like, you don't care about that, then what chances are, how good the salesperson are you gonna be? But if you wanna provide a value and and service, then you're coming at it from a a different place. And in my opinion, those are your typically good salespeople.

So that's more, in a way, more important than, like, the specifics of how you move it forward.

Well, it start it starts there. Right? So it starts with motivation and intention, then moving it forward becomes, hey. Okay. So I I'm I'm gonna demonstrate and earn the business by being diligent, being on top of the business, being responsive.

And and there's sort of a funny thing that getting back to some of the stuff that we did at Stack, which is, you know, one of the ideas here is that, there's always an external goal. Right? And then there's an internal goal. And the internal goal that I try to I I don't I I try to move people towards this idea, but it has to be something that everybody on the team agrees to, which is we wanna be the best place to work at in sales. Right?

We and and so what what does that mean? You know, we wanna treat each other well, be fair to each other, but simultaneously, we also wanna be the best company to do business with. Right? And so okay. So how did that play out?

That played out during how we treat the customer. And and every single one of us has the ability to make someone feel good. And and so if I recognize my job is to make your experience with me worthwhile, meaningful, then then guess what? Like, keep you're gonna you're gonna buy from me. Right?

And and it comes down to trust. So when people make you feel good, you tend to trust them When they're easy to talk to and and provide, you know, valuable insight, you begin to trust that person. And and so, you know, that's anchoring all you know, surrounding this idea. Salesperson's job at the end of day, get someone to make a decision. And so how are decisions made?

And there's a, you know, there's a there's a sliding scale of emotion to intellect. But the emotion that has to be there is trust. No one's gonna agree to buy a product from somebody they don't trust. Yeah. Not gonna happen.

So all these little so all these little things begin to build the trust. And some people are very untrustworthy you know, untrusting, and other people are trusting out of the gates. And so your your job as a salesperson is to assess where that person is on that spectrum and how they make the decisions, anchoring back to this idea of know your audience.

Mhmm. And that that's kinda how you build the trust is just kind of doing the things that you said you're gonna do and that sort of thing. 100%. Yep. I I wanna go into that more, but also conscious of time, I want to ask you from like the founder's perspective.

So when you're talking to founders about, you know, let's say, it's a dev tool starting to get some sales. They've done it all themselves so far, but they, you know, they want to take it to the next level. Maybe they wanna hire someone, start building a team. Like, what what kind of things do you say to people?

So I think the a couple things. One is, you know, what you're describing is they've participated in founder led sales so far. Yep. Yep. And and and so which is which is very typical for most start ups.

Right? And what I would ask them is what's the commonality amongst the sale you know, across the sales that you've had? Is there a pattern? Because, really, at the end of the day, when you begin to scale, if there's no pattern, it's really hard to scale. So it's this idea of of finding what's working and sticking with it versus trying to find know, re recreate success every time.

And so, really, what you're starting to anchor towards is is it the company that you're selling to? Is this is it the thing that they're working on, or is it a is it the vertical? Is it the size of the company? Like, what is it that is important? Right?

And so why why am I referencing that? I'm referencing that because what you're gonna try to do is build you know? So we talk about I you know, ICP, ideal client profile. He's also ICP ideal candidate profile. So what does the ideal candidate look like for this job?

And build out build that out. So someone that understands or so, like, let's just say, for example, you're building a you have a tool that tends to that you're selling to developers that tend to work in manufacture. So you just get somebody coming from solve if you could find somebody who has manufacturing in the background, you know, in a sales environment, that's a plus. If it's a technical sale, another plus. Right?

So you start to I I be you know, itemize the I the things that you believe are critical to their success. The other thing that's also really important is when you're dealing with, you know, an early early stage startup is getting someone that's actually worked in an early stage startup before. So, you know, it's always funny to me. Oh, we hired an ex Microsoft, ex Google person. Oh, okay.

Do you realize that that that salesperson had every every possible tool and marketing collateral piece at their disposal? You put them in a sharp environment, they're gonna go crazy. Well, where's where's my where's my where's my sales collateral? Where's where's all the marketing? When's the next focus group?

When like, what are you what are you talking about? Like, that doesn't exist.

Marketing's not doing their job. West whistleblades. Yeah. Right. And and

and so that's, you know, that's to me and and be you know, I I've seen it over and over again where founders get enamored with people who work for big companies. Okay. That's great. If you're a big company, you're hiring that person. Fantastic.

But you're a small company. Look for someone that's been successful at a small company. Right? Like, that's critical. And then the other thing too, which I know you and I have talked about previously, is that at the startup phase, depending on what your funding capabilities are, in an ideal world, you hire three salespeople, right, you know, versus two.

Some people are, oh, we'll be able hire two salespeople. The problem is you hire two salespeople. One's good, one's not. We hire three, now you actually have a a fair comparison because you're gonna have, you know, top, middle, and bottom. And, you know, if you hire two salespeople and both of them are terrible, is it both are terrible salespeople, or is it the product?

Right? And I've seen people I've seen companies hire two salespeople. One person cannot has no success. One person has success, and then every other person they hire after that person also struggles to be successful. And so what they what happened is they hired somebody who's, you know, a ridiculously good salesperson, and no one else can sell the product.

Yeah. That must be Saiget.

Yeah. And and and I know that type of person, and so what what which is not the worst thing in the world either because what ends up happening is if you could bring someone in who is really experienced and sophisticated, they can actually break down what it is that person's doing that's have that's having the success, and then you recreate that. But it it's it's a different level of sales understanding, and lots of times that person's having a success, they can't articulate it and translate it to somebody else. They're they're usually not at that the the it's it's a different skill, And most times, those people don't have it.

Like, kind of random question. Does it is it usually the, like, a very small number of salespeople make most of the revenue, or is it, like, tend to be?

So that the get so usually, it's the 20% equals, you know, delivers 80% of the revenue. But there there are other rules of thumb. And and one of the rules of thumb in in SaaS sales is, you know, as you're scaling, 80% of your team should be hitting quota. And as soon as you 80% of the team's not hitting quota, you gotta stop hiring. Something's wrong.

That could be the could it be the quotes is wrong?

It it could something's wrong. And and so it could it it could be the marketplace blew up. It could be the product has lost its luster. It could be that the we've saturated the market. So that there it it basically requires a pause in a in analysis.

Right? You have to diagnose what what's actually happening. But if 80% of the team's hitting their numbers, then you continue to hire. And the the idea of, you know, the the 20 e rule really does that that's a a fact, and it's just that's just the reality of of business and and sales. How that plays out is different because you have you you have different like, so at Stack, for example, Stack had three different lines of revenue.

And within the talent team, which was the largest team, you had three different sales teams. You had a SMB, mid market, and enterprise team. And so there there are lots of different layers, you know, so a enterprise salesperson should be bringing much more revenue than an SMB person.

Yeah. But maybe slower to ramp up and stuff, I guess.

Yeah. Exactly.

Mhmm. This is a side question that I've heard some people talking about. What what's like the minimum deal size or like annual contract value for to like justify having salespeople versus like sales self serve? Is that

just, like, impossible question? No. It's not well, so you're not I'm not gonna give you an answer, but because the problem is is that I so for example, I used to know these really well. I've worked in environments where the average deal is $9,000. But if you're closing 10 of them a month right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You're you're doing okay. And and I've been in those environments. I've also been in a environment where the average deal size was, like, $5,500. But you were doing you were doing 20 of those a month.

So is it more about how much a sales person should be bringing in?

Well, so a couple of things. One is so you're you're asking the question from a sales perspective, but you also have to ask the question from the market perspective, which is Mhmm. From a self serve standpoint, how easy is it to use the product? Does it require a salesperson to explain it to to and then and then typically someone from the technical side to come behind that salesperson or work in tandem with the salesperson, whether it's implementation, account services, whatever it is. So to me, it's not it's not just a a purely a mathematical or financial question.

It comes down to, you know, the product. At Stack, when I got there, we had self serve, and we used to sell it in a single job listing, a thirty day job listing. And and what we found very fast found out very fast was that nobody hired somebody in thirty days. It typically took long. So when we were actually selling something, it wasn't gonna be successful in most in most cases.

And and so then we started to say, hey. You you know, you you gotta buy and I don't remember what it was, Mike, you know, five five job listings or, you know, so five months worth of job listings kinda thing, minimum. And and then the next thing was, hey. We found that if we actually had a salesperson reach out, then then then this would actually double the the amount of revenue that the client was willing to spend on self serve. Wow.

Yeah. I mean, it was it was dramatic. And and, again, that's just by having the con you know, educating educating the client in terms of what's required to be successful in in that market. And so I wish it was a simple, oh, you you know, guess what? Under $5,000, self serve all day long.

But if I you know, you could have them private. It's $4,999, and it's the most difficult product to to download and install, and then then you where are you? You know what I mean? Like, you have to have you'd be paying people to support that.

Okay. Okay. So there is no easy answer, basically. People searching for an easy answer.

I I think the bigger, like, the the stronger takeaway is asking the right questions.

Mhmm.

Right? And and to me, it always starts back to what is the market? What is the product? What is the market? And, you know, the buyers particularly when you're new, the buyers dictate the terms.

When you become a household brand and you have the best product, then all of sudden, you can change the expectations and and behaviors in some cases.

Have you have you come across because Vercel, I think a few years ago, and so I think there was a really good article by this guy, Hank, who was the CMO of ourself for a while about how they started to, like, hire people that were, like, working at, like, Apple and technical support and stuff as, their salespeople to kind of reach out. Have you come across any kind of, like, these unconventional ways of doing, like well, I guess it was just, like, unconventional hires where it's, like, very indexed on, like, technical skills even though they're, like, more, like, doing the sales job, not just support.

I think in the case of Vercel. Right? So Vercel and, you know, they're an interesting company because what they've done better than most is really endear themselves to the developer community. And so that kinda speaks back to what we were talking about, know your audience. So they understood that, hey.

In order for us to have success and get the momentum that we need to to, you know, move into the enterprise, we have to have the support of the developer community. How do you get the the support of the developer community? Don't put, you know, slick salespeople in front of the developer community. Put technical people in front of the key you know, the community. Right?

That's that would be my response from or interpretation of what they did there. The other side of it gets back to what you had just asked about, which is self serve. Right? My understanding, and, again, you know that I'm not technical at all, is that Vercel's products are so intuitive and easy to use that they are a pleasure at every turn.

Right? Yeah. It is great products.

And yeah. And so something that is like that is is more it's gonna have it's just gonna be way more successful on the sell serve front than something that isn't.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Right? And and and and so, again, I get back to product and market dependent. And, oh, by the way, getting back to what we were talking about with developers, which is developers are much more cultural at their keyboards. Right, and then engaging in in a dialogue. And so what that means is by having a product that doesn't require technical support, me to or me to reach out to anybody, talk to anybody.

I I I basically built the ideal customer the ideal product for developer. It's all in the docs. It's it's all written down. Like, there's no it's it's foolproof.

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's true. And I think there's a lot of companies starting to just try and go, like, full self serve where they can. I feel like later on it, the buyers want to talk to salespeople.

So there's a couple things there. The first is and I never had this experience until I got to Stack. So Joel Spolsky, you know, the the founder of Stack Overflow, very, very talented, intelligent, and creative guy, he didn't he was not a fan of SalesKeep, unsurprisingly. Typical developer. And he he was you know, he founded FileCreek Software, and FileCreek Software also didn't believe in sales.

They basically believed the product would sell itself, and that was the belief that he brought to Stack Overflow. And then when he hired Tall Jeff, Jeff Shapansky, Tall Jeff had the exact opposite belief, which was, hey. You have to have sales. And what played out for Fog Creek was that they started to have their lunch eaten by Atlassian. And, arguably, Fog Creek's products were actually better than Atlassian's, but Atlassian outsold them at every turn because they had a sales team.

And and so what ended up happening is they they hired me, and I was the first sales leader that they hired. And so I was kinda like the ugly redheaded stepchild in the the company because everyone else was developer centric.

Yeah.

And I'm not a, you know, like a big, you know, salesy sales guy. At least I don't think I am. And Definitely not. So I so I fit in well at that company because of my my persona and and also because I came from a place of, you know, commitment to talent. Right?

And and so I aligned very well with Joel and Jeff, but he was shocked that all of a sudden we start having that revenue started coming in, and we built this you know, at at the height of the time that I was at Stack, the revenue was at a 135 people. You know? Sizable. And and that was something that was completely foreign to Joel. He kinda just stood back and watched it, you know, build on itself.

And so it to me, sales, you know, the the conversation around AI taking away jobs. What what I have found is kind of interesting. More today than, call it, a year ago, the testimonial or reference referral of a colleague is more important Yeah. Than what you're reading online.

Because you can't trust what you read online.

Right. And and because of the not just the trustworthiness, but the the volume

of

it.

True. Yeah.

And there's just so much noise. And so what you really are now relying on is the word-of-mouth in a way. And and so what a salesperson used to be salesperson used to be the word-of-mouth. They used to be the expert. But now information's, you know, at everyone's fingertips.

When you start to talk to clients, they're way more educated about the product than they ever were before. And now it's information overload, and we're like, I'm drowning. Just tell me, you know, who who in my network has, you know, had this same problem and had they solved it.

So they kind of, like, connectors almost, and, like, kind of

Yeah. I mean, it's the value of the network. Right? It's the value of of not you know, knowing and having strong relationships with folks you've worked with.

Yeah. I remember sometimes when it was like a huge company, sometimes you would know that there's this other person who's also trying to get this into the company, and they wouldn't know. And you'd be like, oh, did you know there's this other guy in like Amsterdam that's doing this thing? Yeah. Makes sense.

Yeah. So I guess last kind of question was the last well, was Kai, what what do you think is the last question I should ask you from like I know. You're a DevTools founder. I I could come up with one, but I wonder if there's one that you think that people should be asking that they're not.

It's to me, like, to it's sort of funny. Like, we used to call it honeypotting, which is, you know, you you have six like, as a as a so you founder led sales. You're having success. You gotta be really diligent and record what it is that you're doing. Is it repeatable?

Right? And you try to replicate each of the you know, because every every sales call is an experiment. At the end the day, every sales call is an experiment. And if you approach it like a scientific experiment, what do you know? There are controls.

What are the controls? What are the things that we can control? That's literally to me, that's the best advice you can give to any, you know, founder is is double down on your success. And as you hire salespeople, they'll find the market for you. Like, just just get get some repeatable actions, some repeatable behaviors in terms of those controls, and then hire, you know, experienced salespeople.

You know? An experienced sales leader goes a long way. Someone who's been there, done that, you know, can can do every facet of the sale.

Yeah. That's that's really good advice. And I guess as well, control for having three salespeople at a time. And

Right. Yeah. If you can. I write a lot. Controls.

Yeah. And unfortunately, a lot of companies can't do that. But the more that you record, the better off you are. Just I mean, it's just and and if you really approach it scientifically and think of each each sales call as a petri dish, you're you're gonna really it'll dramatically change the the course of the company in in a positive way.

Guy, thank you so much. This is an episode I've wanted to do, I think, since I started the podcast, because, yeah, you're I I learned so much from you, and I hope that everyone listening did as well. Thank you so much.

Well, thank you for having me. It was always a pleasure certainly working with you and a pleasure keeping in touch, so, all the best.

Thanks everyone for listening, and I think we're gonna have the founder of Cyborg on at some point, so check that out as well.