Austin Tichenor

We talk to Austin Tichenor!

Show Notes

Intro: writing comedy, Joss Whedon, unproblematic men, putting public figures on a pedestal, the hierarchy vs. collaboration dialectic.
Let Me Run This By You: White coat hypertension, writing seminars, Boz's success story!, navigating systems for your own benefit.
Interview: We talk to Reduced Shakespeare Company's Austin Tichenor about UC Berkeley, Boston University, law school, surviving a directing MFA.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Sean rock is comedic, true crime, serial killer thrillers. I don't know what that means. Great. I'm getting my popcorn ready to be very specific.

1 (48s):
So, and yeah, so I think that that's, I'm sort of finding my way in terms of like what? So I, I, I felt like, okay, I need to bite the bullet because it's also 30 pages. So it's not a lot like compared to a 60 page. Oh my God. So it's half the, not half the work, but like you have half the real estate, which in some ways is harder in some ways. So anyway, I had this idea and I, I have a friend of mine. Who's a comedy writer and I, I, and we were talking about this idea of these two women, sort of a dumb and dumber, but for women. And so we started, yeah. And we have these conference rooms here and speaking of dumb and dumber. So we have these conference from here with glass walls.

1 (1m 30s):
Right. And there's like dry erase markers. And there's, you can see some kind of old writing on the glass walls. Well, so we're writing, I'm writing in my, you're not supposed to write it in the glass walls. It, in fact does not come off the glass, speaking of dumb and dumber. So then I'm like, so someone knocks on the door and is like, Hey, you guys know that you're not supposed to be writing on the glass walls. And literally I've written on the whole wall. And I'm like, oh my God. So it took me an hour to get off with scrubs and I had to use different rag. Anyway, it's the stupidest thing because there's no other place to write in the room and there's no whiteboards, so there's something wrong here. But so in, in step with, with sort of dumb and dumber, but anyway, so we're writing this like half hour comedy about just two women that are really dumb, but they're not really dumb.

1 (2m 24s):
Of course they're genius in their own way. But I liked the idea of like seeing women. Yeah. Just seeing women do really dumb shit like bridesmaids, you know, like you're like, yeah, like that kind of a thing. So I don't know how it's going to go. And we just started and we're like meeting, you know, once every couple of weeks, but like, it's good for me too. I also, there's a to study comedy. Like I'm never in my life, like I've done a lot of sort of study and research about drama and crime, but nothing on comedy. And there's a course, a million classes and stuff like that, which I'm not taking, but there's also like books and stuff that I always shied away from.

1 (3m 7s):
I think it was scared. Like, I don't know how you feel, but like, I feel like comedy is so hard to do right. That like, I just was scared of it.

2 (3m 16s):
Yeah. 90% of the comedy you see is terrible. I mean, and that's just talking about the stuff that gets made. So yeah, no, it's really a comedy is, as the saying goes, whatever it is, death, death is hard comedies. I forget. There's something about death. Something's harder. Writing comedy is harder than death, but that thing that you were saying about the toxic work environment, I've heard that too. And actually I was just reading the New York article about Josh Sweden.

1 (3m 50s):
Oh my God. Yes. And about the writers in the room and that, that one writer and he's reading or shit, and he's like making fun. I mean, he should be fucking, I mean, I shouldn't say that he should be hurt badly.

2 (4m 4s):
So for people who don't know, Josh Sweden was the showrunner of Buffy the vampire Slayer. And he was heralded as a feminist. I mean, icon practically. In fact, when I first heard that he was not who he appeared to be, I instantly flashed, I had this patient who had endured a lot in her life. Let's just say that. And she was extremely feminist and that was her favorite show. And he was her favorite person. And, and I distinctly remember her saying, he's like one of the only good guys in, in Hollywood, something like that, something to that effect.

2 (4m 53s):
And honestly, what the hell, I mean, please write a profile about unproblematic men. I it's gotten to the point where I'm like, is nobody

1 (5m 5s):
I'm doing the right thing. I just, I mean, you said a brilliant line, like which I'm going to steal and put in my script, which is in, in hold my calls, which is he's one of the Hollywood good guys or something like that. I think we all are. So looking for that, that when someone appears to be that we cling to them desperately in hopes that they will save all other men and it never works. Like they're all problematic. And I think of course we're all problematic all humans, but, but this is a special brand of problematic in Hollywood in creating art in, in showrunning land and also just Hollywood in general.

1 (5m 49s):
So like, this is a very specific type of toxic asshole man. And there are so many, so many. And so I agree, I need a profile about, but see, as soon as that comes out, there's going to be a woman that's like that dude. Fuck.

2 (6m 4s):
Oh, yeah. Right, right. Right. So remember when you were getting your MFA and you were had to watch all those old films and you said they were all written by women. What I never heard is when, why did that change and what was the,

1 (6m 20s):
So nobody, they, they ran out of men, journalists, writers to write the sort of storylines for the new, for new movies. Right. For the new art of cinema. So first they were silent. Right. And then, then there were titles, you know, let people wrote. And those were written by usually at the beginning, mostly journalist men. Right. And like newspaper, men like that, then they literally ran out. I think of men, people that could write. Right. So they, so women started submitting write some under fake names under, but a lot under their real names. And they didn't give a shit because they didn't get credit.

1 (7m 1s):
So nobody cared. They were women. Right. Cause it wasn't, they weren't on the screen. So as writers, so women really took over, like they, they, I think they just took over. Okay. So that was going great until I believe what happened was until the, the money men got involved from New York. Yeah. So it became a business. So then the money men financed the films, bankers and then women, I think like the first world war, right. Was what was, was, well, I don't know,

2 (7m 41s):
1917

1 (7m 43s):
Something like, I don't know. We're, we're, I'm dumb. So, but like around there the men had to go to war and the women had to take care of the kids. Right. So there was no one to there. They couldn't, it transitioned to more stereotypical gender roles and women stopped writing and then it just took over for

2 (8m 2s):
Yeah, I see. Okay. Well you're right. I mean, it's also like, it's fine for you to do all this work as long as you're not taking credit, but when it comes time for everybody to really recognize this as an art form than intake credit, then it has to be men. Well, okay. So, I mean, I never watched Buffy. I never got into him. I just read that he, his father was a television writer wrote for the golden girls. So that makes us like, okay, so that's how you got in. And he grew up like rich on the upper west side. I think actually the problem is the way that we want to deify people who seem good because then, and actually, this is what I said in the article, because then they have no place to go.

2 (8m 55s):
But you know what I'm saying? Like the majority of humans, if not all, I've done regrettable things. So let's, don't put any, let's just, don't put anybody on such a pedestal, but then we do that because we need heroes. It's a very complicated thing and we can't get out of it. It's just the paradigm we cannot get out of.

1 (9m 20s):
Got it. It started with the Bible. I mean, it's Jesus, it's the Jesus thing. It goes back to whenever. So we need someone to feel like. And I think if you spent to feel like they're going to save us, right. And if you take it for the psychological bent, right. It's like parenting, we're looking for the good dad and the good mom that by the way, don't exist that we have

2 (9m 43s):
To do not exist. We have to

1 (9m 44s):
Build it inside. Oh my gosh. I adore them. I wear them all the time.

2 (9m 50s):
They're really, really good on you. Oh, good. Yeah.

1 (9m 52s):
Gorgeous. Yeah.

2 (9m 55s):
For interrupting you. No, no, no, no.

1 (9m 56s):
I love it. They're like my favorites. Okay. So yeah. I mean like w we, I think it comes down to, and you, and I always talk about this. So like in my dream, kind of, we have basically I've decided like a psychology podcast, but a different kind of psychology podcast. We already have a psychology podcast, but I'm just saying we have a arts and psychology podcasts, but I am obsessed with this idea now that like, and it looks, it's no, it's no shocker that, you know, this is a whole personal growth industry built on this, but like internally we have to build the good mom and dad. And we have to build the savior because, or not even a savior, a helper, because if not, we are destined to repeat this, but then it also makes for really good television, you know, like cold shows and stuff like that.

1 (10m 45s):
But like, it's, it's an inside job, you know, is one of those phrases that they throw around and program and 12 step program and stuff. But it's true. It's fucking, it's

2 (10m 56s):
True. It's true. It's

1 (10m 58s):
So boring in a way, but it's just true.

2 (11m 1s):
Well, what's boring about it is that we, despite like being reminded of this or being uncovering this truth over and over again, like we just can't hold and I'm saying, we meaning me, I cannot hold on to it. I, I know that. And then I forget, and then I want to make somebody else a hero and then I want to feel bad. You know, I want to, and then it's like such a setup for ourselves too, because the way I worshiped bill Cosby, when I was a kid, of course he was America's dad. I needed a dad. That, that makes sense. But there, there was, even if I had found out that like something more innocuous like that, it didn't like dogs or something.

2 (11m 42s):
I, that would have been a disappointment to, I mean, the, the better thing is to say, Hmm, that person is doing some good work. I'm sure they're not perfect because I, I'm not excusing bill, by the way. I don't mean I'm just talking more about like fandom and, and the, and our innate human need to, to make these people seem perfect. And then the feeding frenzy that we do when we learn that they're not actually perfect. And, and it all ends up being a way of not asking yourself what you're not taking. Yeah. And that's what it is. We're always taking everybody else's inventory instead of our own.

2 (12m 23s):
Right.

1 (12m 24s):
And it's deadly. I mean, you know, that's cold, that's, that's abusive relationships, that's domestic violence. It's like we even like organization. So like, so organizations or contests or things that help like I'm looking at, because this is my world right now, like looking at the arts and, and, and Hollywood as like the, the, these organizations, the blacklist, other things, things that were created to help. Right. And then people go, oh my God, this is finally the answer.

2 (12m 57s):
And then it just becomes a problem until the peak,

1 (13m 0s):
Because the people who run it are fallible. Right. Yeah. They're humans. So inevitably there's a downfall. So like, I don't think, I think starting an organization is like the scariest thing in the world. And like, you and I have like a company, but it's different in that. Like, I think we're developing this community so that people are stakeholders, but still, like, I have to say, you know, there is a fear of mine though, like, you know, for, for our listeners where we started this cool group and you're not invited, no, no, we started this cool group, but really it's, it's just, it's like an artist collective. Right. But even that, when people are like, oh, the founders, Jen and Jean, I'm like, oh, shit ball.

2 (13m 42s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Well, and that's the other thing is that we have to have a structure, right? I mean, this is the debate that goes on in my mind all the time. I was good friends with somebody in California who wanted to her dream was to have a theater company where the founding members rotated artistic directorship. So nobody would be artistic director for more than like a year or two. I moved away from California right before she started it. And she started it. And it actually was, I think, pretty successful. It closed during COVID because like everything did. And, and, and even though that sounded so cool to me. And even though I was definitely in my young and idealistic phase phase of life, then a part of me was like that isn't going to work because we're people.

2 (14m 32s):
And because despite our, whatever, our political leanings are, however progressive, we may feel, we are, we ultimately are hardwired to want one or two or a group of small group of people to be in charge. Even, you know, somebody always has to be in charge of the people in charge, Ryan. That's why organizations need these structures.

1 (14m 55s):
Yeah. And that's yeah. And, and that's, yes. That's why shit gets created. Bylaws rules, human resource departments are built on this thing of like, oh, we're going to get into trouble. So we need safety nets or procedures for when that happens. And I just, I just all, I'm just like, oh God, I don't want to get sued. You know what I mean? Like I'm like, please don't please. I'm already in a lawsuit with our evil landlord, former landlords. And I, and I don't want to be, it's like, no,

2 (15m 27s):
Or in a similar position of like, on the one hand, we want to be rich and famous. On the other hand, we

1 (15m 36s):
Don't want any problems.

2 (15m 37s):
We don't want to have the same problems. Yeah. Yeah. That's my husband has a patient who he says is just really looking for the friction free existence. Just wants to have a life with no hassle. He really he's in his early twenties. He's truly, and sincerely seeking a life that is hassle-free. And as we learned from Don who Mo brown, who moved to The Bahamas to live a hassle-free existence, which does not,

1 (16m 6s):
She, she found problem. You like, she found problematic people in paradise. Like, that's the name of my show, problematic people in paradise. It's going to be a show about this woman who escapes and goes to The Bahamas. And then she pitches her Tet and the fucking lady next to her pitching her tent is bonkers. And won't leave her alone. Like that is the greatest idea for comedy ever. But like the thing is this, the thing is like, yeah, I don't know. And I think you're right. I mean, I think the only answer if there is an answer is to turn inward and to look at, okay, like, what's my part in this? Like, did I, and, and if I don't think I have a part, then I need to remove myself, like, what can I do to make the situation better?

1 (16m 53s):
And if it's not possible, then we gotta go. You gotta go. But like the Josh Sweden thing, reading her, the female writers. So she like, you know, that you pitch ideas and then you write dialogue and stuff. And like, he humiliated her in front of a group of writers. And no one stood up for her, of course, because this is also, this is also back in the day, but also it's scary and you're a new writer and what the fuck. So I think what we need is more people like us in rooms, because I'll tell you this. I, as even though I'm an emerging writer, I'm not a writer that needs the money necessarily to live.

1 (17m 38s):
Or if someone came down and said to me, you can't be a television writer or a screenwriter, I would not kill myself. Right. So I don't have that much to lose. Like, look, if I get an, a writing room and be fucking scared shitless. But I also like to think, and maybe I'm wrong that if some shit was going on, like this, I would be like, wait the fuck. I worked in social services. This shit didn't even happen there. We're not going to have it here when it's, this is like a fucking paradise job. So stop this man. Right? Like we're not doing this here, but I, and I would be fired, which would be okay because you know what? I could always go to the Arco and PM. Like I am telling you right now, there is a backup plan.

1 (18m 18s):
And that plan is a minimum wage job that I have done before. So I, while I will be scared, I would like to think, and we'll see if I ever get in a room, but like, I would like to say that I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're being a Dick. Like, we can't do this. And if you're going to do this, I'm going to go. And then I'm going to fucking drag you on Twitter and your career is over. So

2 (18m 39s):
Of course we'd like to think that that's what we would do. I mean, would we really do? And in a given situation, it's hard to say it's truly hard to say. I was proud of myself at the artists collective thing that I said, the thing that I've never said in a situation like that before, which is like, okay, but how are we going to really make this diverse? Like, literally I don't mean let's have ideals and let's post a picture of Martin Luther king on MLK day. I mean, like, how do we actually do something differently? And that will only, I think that only comes from facing what your own fears are about things. I mean, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back. It's just like a very clear progression from when I start to look at all of my stuff, I become less afraid of all of my stuff.

2 (19m 27s):
And when I'm overall less afraid, then I feel more empowered to do, to actually live according to my values, instead of just

1 (19m 34s):
Right. And I think the real step that I'm noticing with you is that you took that sort of, you took a stand in your last organization and said, wait, I can not do this. I can't participate in this. And here's why, and you said what you needed to say, and you removed yourself from the situation, but you, you definitely took a stand. So I think taking a stand in whatever way we can, and it's going to be really interesting to see how we do in the artists collective when shit comes up, because it will come up. You know, one of us is going to write some bias, racist as shit because the human nature, right.

1 (20m 16s):
And then when we're called on it, which I hope we are, it's going to be really interesting to see how I, how you help every person in the collective handles it. It's going to be messy. And it's going to be weird. I think it's going to be important though, to see how we handle it, because that's really a Testament to, is the group gonna last and also, are we going to walk the walk that, am I going to walk the walk of the talk I give? So like, we can use it as a mini exercise and like, what would we do in a writer's room or some kind of entertainment, like thing, if someone does some weird shit, either on purpose or not on purpose. Yeah.

2 (20m 54s):
Yeah. That's it. That's the only thing to fear is fear itself.

1 (21m 10s):
We know it's like the most boring thing, but it's true. Like I hate having my blood pressure taken. I have high blood pressure. It goes up to 180 7 every time in the doctor's office, 180 7 because of my panic, 180 7, like, that's my number. I know it's going to do it. They retake it manually. It goes down to one 40 or one 30. It's like the thing. And I could feel it happening. And the lovely nurse note was supposed, you know, it's so interesting when I told him what was going on with me, I could see he got anxious. And then he started trying to tell me funny stories that weren't funny. And like, he was like, oh, just we'll have a cocktail together. He's not trained. He doesn't know what's happening. So it went way up. And I just thought, you know what?

1 (21m 51s):
That's what it is. He goes, oh yeah, it's 180 7. I was a guest. That's what I said it would be. And then she came in and I talked to my amazing doctor. And by the end she takes it manually. And it went down to one 40 over. I mean, it's fine.

2 (22m 3s):
Why, why do they take blood pressure at the very beginning of an appointment? I mean, they should just always do it at the end of

1 (22m 8s):
Which insurance it's dumb and it's insurance, it's all insurance based. So I think they're trying to get the money out of the way first. So if they do the vitals and they get paid, right. So, so they, but they don't want to do at first, but it's just the way the system is. And my doctor was like, no, we're never doing this again. Like, I'm always, she wants to do it with the cuff first to see where I'm at because that, but she doesn't have to be right at the beginning of the appointment. And then she'll always, they always take it manually. The only reason they don't take it manually, the only reason is to save time.

2 (22m 41s):
Right. And then it's not really saving time in many cases. I mean, I'm sure there must be people out there who don't get that white coat fever, but nobody in my family, every single person in my family has high reading at the beginning of that.

1 (22m 53s):
Yeah. And they think I'm having a stroke. I'm like, no, I'm having a panic attack. Like there's a different thing. And then my doctors get it. They're amazing. But the nurses don't really, I mean, they're not there to, they're not therapists. That's not their jam. They're trying to get your vitals and get the fuck out to the next patient.

2 (23m 7s):
Oh God, that, that thing you're describing of you're with the nurse and he's and his level of experience or whatever means that he's going to be often afraid of situations that are happening, that, that collision of two people's fears in a small space, like a doctor's office is always so overwhelming. And you just, and, and also couple that with the social thing where you can't really say, we're both afraid right now, you know, because he would look, look at you. Like you're crazy. But what if you could say, Jim, we're both afraid right now you're talking about cocktails and appropriately.

2 (23m 51s):
And I have high blood pressure. Yeah. Let's do, let's do something different. Let's pretend like this isn't happening because the other thing that happens to you, I know, I know this for a fact is when you feel like people are pretending your anxiety shoots way and you feel like you're being asked to participate in pretending

1 (24m 12s):
And, and, and, and here's the thing like literally your body can not lie. So you're actually taking a reading of my anxiety. That's what my doctor said. Like, that's all it is. So blood pressure when you take it in the arm is actually just a reading of your arm, the blood flowing through your arm. It is not an indicator literally of what's going on. Otherwise it's not great because it means that everything's working too hard, usually, especially in a non-threatening situation. But she, my cardiologist is brilliant and that she's like, I don't base anything on that. What I base it on is if you, how you feel, I can use it as a gauge, but like, unless I lay hands on you and hear, listen to your heart, check your brain with a scan.

1 (24m 56s):
I don't know what the hell it is. So I it's just ease. People are trying to make things easier. And really it's, it's, we've created a real, a real fucked up situation. But I wish I had said to Leo, his name was Leo. Like I wish I had sent that. Cause he was like, oh my God, we're going to be fine. Oh no, this is the worst. That's like, when you're afraid to fly. And someone's like, oh my God, you're going to be fine. Like, everything's fine. Like, don't worry. And you're like, oh my God, you're fucking crazy. And you're anxious.

2 (25m 23s):
The amount of times I hear somebody say to somebody else don't feel fill in the blank, whatever it is, you're feeling I, what a waste of time don't ever say. I, and I'm saying it to myself too, because I'm sure I say it too. Don't ever tell somebody, you shouldn't feel that way. Don't it just, what you should be saying is wow. When you tell me you feel that way, that makes me really nervous. That whatever I feel that way, or yeah. Yeah. There's just a lot of work to be done in terms of our own self knowledge and honesty and ability, to be honest in all our affairs.

1 (25m 59s):
And so the doctor for me is like doctor and flying is the best way to tell, like where it's the best way to like work out, like what's happening for me because I'm like, oh my God, this is, and I did it. That's the important thing I did it. I, my labs are all fine. Like everything. Like my doctor's amazing. I've lost weight. I have 30 pounds more to go to be like an optimal heart health, you know, which is fine. I want to do that over the next couple of years, I'm fine. But it was traumatizing and it's always traumatizing and she knows it's traumatizing. It's just, it's also the nurses, there's such a high turnover. The last nurse I had, there was amazing. She was this large woman that I adored and by large, I mean, she was like six feet, two.

1 (26m 42s):
And like just large woman. I felt we safe way safe. She's like, I read your chart. She said, I know we know all about you. We're going to just do it. And then we did it and it was low. The first time she took it, she didn't go into,

2 (26m 59s):
By the way, that's what they should be teaching people. Whether it's true or not tell the patient, you read their chart. That is some, everybody struggles with this thing of like, oh really? I'm going to repeat to you the same thing. I've already now repeated three times to other people in this same office. I'm going to answer verbally questions that you just had me answer on paper. I, I know that that's for insurance too, but like do yourselves and everybody else a favor, just let the patient know. I mean, it'd be ideal if you read the chart, if you actually did read the chart, right. It's not just tell them you did

1 (27m 36s):
The other thing that happens in. Yeah. Right. Lie. I don't care if you lie to me, but it's not. It's like the intention behind the thing. So like the other thing on my, I am at St. John's and I love the system of what w when you literally type in my name, because I've seen my doctor do it, the issues come up and you could see it. So it says, if you try it, when my chart pops up, it says white, the first thing it says is white coat hypertension, like in big letters. And then it says mood disorder. Then it says, AFib, like, those are the things you don't even have to read the chart. You could get the subtype,

2 (28m 13s):
The bullet

1 (28m 13s):
Points. Yeah. You could read the cliff notes right there in big letters. And she did that. I'm sure she didn't like look into the minutia, my child, of course.

2 (28m 20s):
Right, right, right, right. Yeah.

1 (28m 22s):
And of course it was lower when she took it with the cuff. It was one 50. So it's like, anyway, I have this whole I'm on this whole crusade to like, not change the medical system. Cause fuck all that. But to like, really look at okay, like since they're probably not going to change, right. Because of whatever, how can I do it? And basically I just have to go through it. Like I,

2 (28m 43s):
Yeah. You just got to go through it. That's it. There's no way. There's no way out. But through this weekend I participated, I took a writing workshop seminar, and I'm not going to say who it was with because I won't, I mean, I'll tell you, I should tell you it, I charge we'll bleep this out. It was will end.

1 (29m 7s):
Oh yeah. Playwrights.

2 (29m 9s):
Okay. Yeah. So I took this writing workshop and it was whatever it was 150 or $175. And it was a two-hour workshop where it didn't give a lot of detail about what was actually going to be in the workshop, except for the two main people who were the mentors in it. And what it turned out to me is the first hour was a Q and a, between those two writers, which it's Hmm. You, each of you have a look at PDF page. I do know the answer to most of these questions already.

2 (29m 50s):
And then the second half was writing exercises, which were actually good. I mean, you know, I, I love a writing exercise. One of them was write a scenario, a scenario that's impossible to write something that's impossible to stage. Mine was a peacock smoking a cigarette. Fantastic. So your mind goes into, I mean, just the act of doing the writing exercises is freeing. I couldn't help like Carrie Bradshaw. I couldn't help, but wonder if that's great. That's a great way. What are we doing here?

2 (30m 30s):
Like Mariah? Okay. Writing. Actually I have like 15 books on my nightstand that are full of writing prompts. Like that's not really what I needed from you. I needed from you. And, and here's the thing I want to run by you. Like, what did I need for, what did I need from this? What was I actually looking for? Well, if I'm honest with myself, I'm always hopeful that when I get to meet people who have some degree of success that somehow meeting them will be hooved me down the right, what I did end up spending a lot of time doing during the Q and a that I didn't care about was writing down the names of all 146 attendees. So I could look them up on social media so I could follow them from our undeniable writers account so that they would follow us back.

2 (31m 17s):
And that kind of worked cause like five people did follow us back. And I, in other words, I guess, I guess I'm thinking about it like, oh, I'm going to become a better writer. I have this idealistic thought about why, you know, w when I sign up for something like this, but the reality is I just want somebody to pay me to write something. And I have these ways of that I think are going to be successful in terms of getting me there, meeting this person, connecting with this person on social media. And maybe that's fine. Maybe that's fine. Maybe that's worth $150, you know, for me to feel like I did something for my writing and for those people, I guess, I guess that I don't have a very well formulated sharp question in it, but it's like, do you know what I mean?

2 (32m 10s):
When I say, you're, you're gearing yourself up to do this thing that you're telling yourself is going to be for a reason. That's not actually the reason that you're ultimately going there for us.

1 (32m 21s):
Absolutely. And I think I will say that from taking things and from being a facilitator of things, a lot of right, and this is, we talk about on the podcast. Art is so hard when you talk, when you into trying to make money from it, because everyone's looking for different things, obviously, but also like these workshops and seminars and classes, they just vary. So wildly in terms of what the fuck they are. Zoom is weird. What, what are we doing? I literally heard about, so like my MFA program I left is now, you know, they met in person and now they had to just do a session on zoom again, because of the virus.

1 (33m 12s):
And I heard that like, half of it was just filler time, like filler because they did it. So filler, I think that's, what's happening is there's a lot of filler going on. So it's not so much that the cost is exorbitant of 150 or 175. It's sort of like, right. What is the content of the thing?

2 (33m 31s):
Yeah. Well, I mean, for, for, for what it was, it was exorbitant, right. Because, because of course those two people need to make their money to put food on their table, I guess. Okay. Here's what I guess I'm, I'm narrowing down on it. Yeah. There's just what you said. A lot of, most people probably go into our touristic pursuits for a more pure reason than to make money from it. But of course you're met with this. Okay. Well, if I want to do this all the time, then I have to make money from it. And it leads to a lot of pretending about what we're really doing here.

2 (34m 12s):
Like these two people needed to have 150 people give them $150

1 (34m 18s):
A lot of money by the way. Right.

2 (34m 21s):
Or is it because that's, you know, yeah, probably a drop in the bucket compared to what they've paid for their own education, you know? So I, and I guess I wouldn't want the, I guess I wouldn't want to suspend to not suspend my disbelief because we all sort of need to tell ourselves a story about why we're doing something. And sometimes if the answer is it's just for money or for, it's just, that's unacceptable to you for your own value. So you have to tell yourself a lie about what it is that you're really going into it for, but you're right.

2 (35m 3s):
It's filler. A lot of it is filler. And you just have to know that going in again, don't put everything on a pedestal.

1 (35m 10s):
I mean, it's really interesting. It's like, right. I, I, I think it's how I navigate systems. It comes down to, so like, what is the system of, even in a little level, like what is the system of this workshop? Right. And then like once we get in there and we see like, oh, this is the system they're just going to talk. And I think he did the exact right thing for you, which was how can I make this work for me? Yeah. So I have a, just a quick success story that I love. So this organization that I was a part of that I won't name that I thought was going to be the savior, this right. Helping writers. Right. Okay. Fine. Did not work out for me.

1 (35m 51s):
But then I thought, okay, well, is there any part of the system I can use? So I got a great rate rate, two page pitch out of this, this, this organization. And then I said, okay, well wait, what else can I do? So they offer these, you, you can, it's a pitching calendar and you can sign up to send your pitch or do a verbal pitch to the manager of your choice for a set for a $30, which is nothing to me. I mean, like compared to what I spent $30 on tank tops, you know what I mean? That I don't like, okay, fine. So I targeted a manager, one that was from a comp one that was from a company I adore.

1 (36m 33s):
And from what I know about them, I mean, what do I really know? But really they seem really cool. And he seems really cool. And the work he likes is really cool. He's a manager. I said, okay, well, what the fuck? I'll just send them my pitch. I'll sign up and send them. So I did that and I did not hear, and I did not hear, and I did not hear. And I said, oh, they fucked me again. Like, they didn't even give him my shit. You had to like, fill out this, but that. And so I said, you know what, Jen stick up for yourself. So I wrote them and said, Hey, I never heard back. I did this thing. I never heard back from my, the manager I pitched. And they said, oh no, no, it's coming. They have until this day to do it, which wasn't clear in the thing, but, okay. So I said, okay, we'll see, we'll see if it comes my way.

1 (37m 13s):
Like I was expecting nothing. So then on Friday I get an email. He fucking loved the pitch, loved it. He loved everything, everything got excellent. And he was like, please send me the script ASAP. So he now has hold my calls and we'll see. I mean, it can, it, it, it exciting. So that all is to say, and I know we have to wrap up, but like to say, like, I have to figure out how to navigate certain systems to my benefit. And that's just what my clients had to do. Navigate the system, that when I was a therapist, that's just what two students have to do in school systems. We figure out how to navigate these systems. And these systems are really fucked up because people are fucked up and they run the system.

1 (37m 56s):
So anyway, everyone finds their way. I think, to navigate the medical system, the legal system, the entertainment system, like you find the system, figure out, figure out your system. Yeah. O Y S voice voice

4 (38m 29s):
Today on the podcast, we are talking to Austin there. Austin is a writer, director, performer, and managing partner of the reduced Shakespeare company. And he's funny and gregarious. And he's got a great way with the story. So please enjoy our conversation with Austin pitcher.

1 (38m 58s):
Oh, that's beautiful plates. Wow. You have quite the boys. You do voiceovers. Did I say

5 (39m 4s):
I did until my voice, my agency's voiceover department closed. And I've just got too many things going on. Well, this is part of my problem. We'll talk about my

2 (39m 15s):
Problems, survivor all your problems.

1 (39m 18s):
We did order an order from like maybe three, four years old.

5 (39m 23s):
Yeah. Yeah. The bed wedding. We can go wherever you need to go.

2 (39m 28s):
Okay. Well, let's start with this Austin titular. Congratulations. You survived theater school.

5 (39m 34s):
Yay me.

2 (39m 36s):
Yay. Yay. All of us. Where did you go

5 (39m 40s):
For undergraduate? I went to university of California, Berkeley, where I was a drama and history. Double major, real like

1 (39m 48s):
A real dummy is what you're saying.

5 (39m 50s):
I'm a real well, it was a lot easier to get into Cal however many years ago. That was, I'm going to say 40, but, but yeah, I couldn't possibly get it in there now. And then I took a year off and then I got my MFA in directing from Boston university.

2 (40m 8s):
Oh, okay. And directing. All right, cool. But for Berkeley you were studying,

5 (40m 14s):
I guess I was, well, the Berkeley theater department. I mean, the good news was, I mean, well, the bad news was they didn't, they didn't give you much direction in terms of what you should be studying, but the great news was they didn't give you much direction in terms of what you should be studying. So you were, we were constantly putting up our own shows and making our own art. And in fact, when I had, when I was there, I got a job stage managing the Oakland symphony. And that took me, that took me away from any faculty led productions that re rehearsing the evening. Cause I was always working in the evening. Oh. And making money.

5 (40m 55s):
I always had to explain to my faculty about that. So I was in a lot of student productions that rehearsed, you know, after midnight or first thing in the morning, wherever, wherever we did it was, it was, it was great. I mean, and I, I know a ton of so many talented people came out of that program and, and you're right. Actually talented regardless of how talented they were. They were no dummies, you know, it was filled with kind of pretty, pretty bright folks. And that was exciting.

2 (41m 26s):
So then what's the, what's the gap between the Berkeley and getting

1 (41m 33s):
Your MFA and D were you directing before? How did you, how did you pick directly?

5 (41m 38s):
I'd been doing shows honestly, how far back did you say we wanted to go? I've been doing puppet shows since kindergarten. I was, Yeah. Well, I got to put it to good use. I've never stopped doing puppet shows really, but, but I started doing plays in elementary school and I would all always get the parts, not the greatest parts, but the parts with the most lines, because really super wanted to play Peter in the lion, the witch and the wardrobe in third grade. But they cast me as the professor because he had all the speeches in their region and I get memorize it like, so playing an old man, even that

1 (42m 15s):
I was always the narrator always. I thought the narrator doesn't have a fucking personality. What the fuck?

5 (42m 23s):
Well, exactly. So you got to put, you got to bring your own, I mean the good news, bad news again, good news, bad news. But I, but then I, when I started doing community theater in my teens and, and doing shows in high school and then shows in college and there were more instances of me looking at my director and I could do a better job than this, you know, I would see, I would see shows that would inspire me a great direction, great artistry that would inspire me. But these crappy mediocre directors motivated like I can be, I can, I can be at least as mediocre as this guy. And I bet I can be better.

5 (43m 4s):
So that's what, that's what I got the double major in history in drama, because it was the early eighties and the rise of the Reagan youth and everybody was going to law school and I thought, you know what, I'll go, I'll do this. And this will be fun. And I'll go to law school. And literally in my, in that year off after graduation, my dad had been to Hastings law school for a year. And he had to drop out to take care of his mother who was dying of cancer and in the fifties. And he said, yeah, don't go to law school. You will hate law school. So I, I had that father who encouraged me to not Blau to God and to follow my dream instead.

5 (43m 45s):
So I applied to graduate.

1 (43m 47s):
And you think, what do you think that he just knew you so well? Or like, why do you think he thought you'd hate it?

5 (43m 54s):
I beak, I think he knew me pretty well actually. I mean, he think he knew I was idiosyncratic. I like storytelling. I didn't like close reading. I actually could. I bet. I bet I've only figured this out recently. I bet I would've loved to being a lawyer, but I would have hated going to law school.

1 (44m 19s):
And a lot of people say, yeah,

5 (44m 21s):
Yeah. And I, and I had two college roommates who had subsequently gone on to become lawyers and every time I would see them then, and then over the decades, now they would say, oh God, you dodged a bullet.

1 (44m 35s):
Yeah. Yeah. My husband went to law school and was a lawyer. And he liked, well, I don't know about liked, but he law school was okay. And he hated being in the courtroom and being a lawyer and he doesn't do it anymore, but yeah, it's a very bizarre profession. So I'm glad you didn't end up there

5 (44m 51s):
V2. That's the weird thing was I applied to different schools. I thought I was going to go get my MFA in acting actually. And I applied to like five or six students, different schools. I got into all of them, except for Yale, you know, was fuck those guys.

1 (45m 9s):
Yeah. I'm not even sure Yale's a real thing. You know what I mean?

5 (45m 14s):
It's just like Narnia. I, but I, and I got into, but it really came down to NYU's MFA program at Tisch and where they gave me all the money and it's like, wow, I'm going to make money go into this school. But I, I visited some of the classes. I didn't much care for some of the classes that I saw and, and, and, and Boston university was offering less money, but that, and, and, and BU was a directing program. And I realized kind of in a light bulb moment that I would have more opportunities to act as a director than I would have to direct as an, as just an actor.

5 (45m 55s):
And I think that was one of the few only smart decisions I ever made about my career. What

1 (46m 1s):
Didn't you like about the classes you saw? Tish?

5 (46m 5s):
I, they, one thing was that they take a bunch of people in their first year and then winnow it down over the years of the program. And I thought that was kind of bullshit. And, and then I saw the huge numbers of people that they took. And I went, I CA I just kinda went, I think I'm better than that. I'm not interested in this and I want to be challenged. Not that I'm a great actor and I'm, cause I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm certainly not a transformative actor. I mean, this is what I got. I'm not going to be, I knew that about myself. And so directing, I just thought would give me more of a challenge and ultimately more of a control of my career.

5 (46m 50s):
I think that was the illusion, the illusion we strive for in the arts and maybe in other fields is that illusion of control. And I felt like I wanted to be, not just an actor. I wanted to tell stories. And sometimes those stories I could tell from somebody else's script and direct them. And sometimes I had already by then started writing some plays, wrote a musical in college. And I thought, you know, maybe that's a thing too, again, again, because I knew my limitations. It's a tactic. I just went, there's more stories. I think I want to tell,

1 (47m 20s):
You know, it's so interesting. It's like, if I, if I, if NYU offered me like $10, I'd go, I would've gotten, like, I think it's, there's something I love about people who are like in the face of just being offered some shit. They still say no, because it's not the right thing for them. Like, I just love that. I just wish if I, you know, I would love that for everybody I love is to go into a situation, whether it's as an actor or director, whatever, as an adult or child, a youngster and say, you know, you're offering me this job, this money, this thing. But I know in my heart like this, isn't right. I'm going to take another route.

1 (48m 2s):
Oh my God, that's brilliant. Like, that's the freedom.

2 (48m 5s):
Oh, it's the diff it's always the difference between people who were brought up to think they deserved something and people who were, you know, brought up to believe in, take whatever you get. Cause nothing, you know, nothing is really coming down.

1 (48m 19s):
And I think that they, everyone comes by their shit, honestly. So it's not even like, yeah. And, but like, yeah, I was brought up to like, if someone's offering you anything and I think, look, you do what you have to do, but I can honestly say that did not serve me. That did not serve me. That attitude of like, take what you can get and just go, I didn't even apply because I didn't even apply any aware out like anyway, so, okay. Continue.

2 (48m 42s):
We often say you auditioned for all for five acting programs. Okay. Do you remember?

5 (48m 50s):
I CA I can't recite it to you, but I can't, but I do. It was, it was, it was a house speech from Henry Ford telling his dad, you know, I would not have it. So I will prove to you that I'm your son. And, and, and actually just recently I realized, oh, you know what? I shouldn't learn the other half of that scene now. So I've started working Henry. Fourth's a thing, speech that yells at his son too. That's been, that's been a fun process. I had to do that. And then I had to, for the directing programs, I had to two different programs, require different things, but I had to direct plays on purpose and on paper, not on purpose, mostly on paper.

5 (49m 30s):
So I would have to turn in here's, here's how I would direct Tom Scott or here's like one Carnegie Mellon. I think I had to, I had to direct a scene from Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead. I chose it in front of whoever was interviewing me, you know, so I had to bring in actors, it was a hit.

2 (49m 52s):
That's great. But that is a hard thing to audition for. I mean, directing has got to be a really hard thing to audition for it. Did you like the program at BU

5 (50m 1s):
With reservations? Yeah, I did. I mean, with the same reservations I have with all charter schools, which is there, they're never exactly what you want. And, and, and the thing I did, the thing I liked about the BU program is that I think this is the best part about theater school is the people you meet. And I met great people. I, and I worked with some great people too. And in all, and again, like all theater schools, but everywhere you work, you learn some things that you love and you learn some things that you're never ever, ever going to do. So I met some wonderful people, people with whom I'm still in touch and several whom I've worked with over the years.

5 (50m 41s):
The thing I didn't like about the B U program was that their actors, their undergraduate actors were BFAs. And, and I think I'm, I I'm already on record as saying that I would, I think a BFA as a silly degree. I just, it's not, it's not a silly degree for everybody. People who know what they want to do. They know they want to be actors. That's all they're ever going to want to do. Boom, go get your BFF. Great. But the, I, I wasn't aware of the undergraduates. That would be you ever having to like read a paper, write a paper, read a book, talk about the news. Talk about current events.

5 (51m 22s):
I hate talking about current events, particularly currently in the last four or five years, because I can be a sparkling dinner companion, or we can talk politics. There's there's not a, there's not a subtle gradation there between those two extremes,

1 (51m 38s):
But I think you're right. Look, look, look, let's pause and say, BFAs are so Uber specific at a time where no fucking buddy at 1980, I was 17. When I started my BFA. What in the fuck? I mean, it's too specific. I needed more vagueness. I needed more. Like I literally need, I remember sitting in history and being in it. We had to take like one history class and being like, I don't know what she's talking about. And I have no desire because my, my acting teachers are telling me like, basically yoga is most important in life. So, so I, and it's not their fault.

1 (52m 18s):
Like that was their job, but like I needed more general education. I really did. I really did

5 (52m 26s):
Well. And my, my wife had her, has her BFA from Boston conservatory of music and her emphasis on musical theater. So, and she wanted to direct and she wanted to improvise. And that's what she has gone on to do art. We've had, we have told both of our children do not, do not do not go into show business, do not, do not. We have a 50% success rate. Our son has to decide is, is not, unless he backdoors it. I could see him somewhere down the line, ready to go screenplay a little.

1 (52m 58s):
Yeah. And it'll probably get made like the next, you know, fucking store.

5 (53m 4s):
And our daughter is, she's a senior now in a theater program. And the one thing, and That's the one thing, the one thing we would not support as a BFA. And it like in our first orientation meeting, when they told her what she would be allowed to do as a BA and what she would not be allowed to do as a, she looked at me and went, yeah. Okay. You were right. You were right. And I think it's great because, you know, we told her all our life, this is a horrible, horrible, horrible business. And she has quite rightly said, fuck you, I'm going to do what I want to do. And you and mom succeeded in this business of how tough could it be. Right.

2 (53m 42s):
Right. Oh yeah. Oh, to say, got you there.

5 (53m 47s):
I have raised her to Sasser elders.

2 (53m 50s):
Then you were always interested in Shakespeare though, because when you were auditioning for your programs, did that, I did not do that. You went full unit full Shakespeare.

5 (54m 0s):
I w I wish I could remember whether that was required or not. I think it might have been because that, you know, we were all a part of the, the league of the league of whatever training programs, professional training programs or whatever. So, you know, you were going to work in the classics and I will very good. It was interesting. I was always, I was good with text, but I wasn't good at connecting emotions to the text until much, much later. So it, it was, but I have been a fond of Shakespeare. I, I grew up in the bay area. I was born in San Francisco, grew up there and was lucky as a kid. Cause we got taken to field trips at American conservatory theater in San Francisco.

5 (54m 42s):
And so I saw great productions of Julius Caesar and Othello and Mackers and, and, and an amazing production that I think you can see in its entirety. Now on YouTube of taming of the Shrew Commedia, dell'arte based inspired taming of the Shrew with Freddie Olster and mark Beastmaster, Sanger as Petruchio w wearing tights and no shirt most of the time. And Lord, my ovaries started to melt when I watched him. Golly. And then the first, then the first, my first exercise at BU in the directing program was to take a play.

5 (55m 29s):
And again, I think I could pick my own play. I, or maybe, I don't know. I ended up picking much ado about nothing, do a five minute cutting of this play,

2 (55m 39s):
Play

5 (55m 41s):
Five minutes of the whole play. What do you need? What is essential in this play? Do you need to tell the story of this play in five minutes and you know, you're you get, you, you, they throw actors at you and you can do whatever you want. And so it was a great exercise, not just for Shakespeare, but for storytelling generally.

2 (55m 58s):
And so in that scenario, do you ha do you lean on picking bits for exposition or picking bits for whatever the emotional arc is of the story? Yeah.

5 (56m 11s):
Yes. All of that. It really, I guess it would depend on the exercise. I mean, taming, the Shrew is a comedy, so I'm going to make it a con I mean, much ado about nothing is a, is a comedy. So I'm going to make it a comedy, but it was also experiments in tone. And you know, what, how serious do you want your comedy to be? How wacky, how, whatever. I mean, that's always that it's, it's really, it's a really, that's my form of cooking is mixing in the spices of comedy or the, the, the, the base, the broth of pain and tragedy that grounds the comedy.

5 (56m 52s):
Yeah, it's it's it was in grad school that I finally started to get around the idea that I had to have all the answers. When I stepped into the rehearsal room, it was li re real life. And plus being an actor, I wanted to work with actors and get actors ideas. So I don't want to come in and go, oh, I figured it all out. All you need to do is this, this, and this it's way more interesting to just work with the actors and let them bring their ideas to, I don't know everything and I don't need to know everything.

2 (57m 21s):
Yeah, no, absolutely. There's just a different, and a lot of films are made where the director has already figured everything out, every shot before they go in. And you know, I mean, it's a gamble because if you're really, really good, that can turn out fine. But if you're not, then it can appear very distracted. Okay. So tell us how reduced Shakespeare for people to know reduced Shakespeare is taking all of the plays of Shakespeare and condensing them, not unlike this five minutes, much ado you did for taming with whoever was and presenting it to schools. Right? And to all kinds of,

5 (57m 58s):
Okay. It itch. It started, I was not one of the founding members of it that was founded by it. Actually, we just celebrated our 40th anniversary, lasts that August. Thank you August. Oh, I've only been with the company 30 years this year, but I'll that they it's, the company started as a pass the hat act at Renaissance fairs in Northern California performed by a bunch of friends who thought it would be fun. Daniel singer was the man who, who, who thought, wouldn't it be a great idea to call ourselves the reduced Shakespeare company. We'd be the other RSC. And You know, we'd just do short versions of the plays with few people.

5 (58m 44s):
And those five people eventually became three people as people fell away. And, and then they realized, oh, three is a magic number because we know that song. And they started doing a three-person Romeo and Juliet from, they did that for a couple of summers than they did then Jess Winfield dropped away and they did a two person Hamlet. Or if I got that backwards, I do have to have that exactly backwards. They did a three, they did a three version Hamlet for, for a handful of years. Then they did a two-person Romeo and Juliet because Jess had walked away for a bit. And then, and then somebody said, well, you've done two of Shakespeare's plays. You should do all of his plays. There's only 30 set. There are 35 left. How tough could that be? And they wrote the song well, wrote the show, the show behind me, the complete, the complete works of William Shakespeare bridged and premiered it at the Edinburgh fringe festival in August of 1987, thinking that would be the Swan song of the company.

5 (59m 38s):
It turned out to be just the beginning because interest from other companies and other theater festivals started coming in and it became sort of a full-time job by 1989, which is when Daniel left to become an Imagineer at Walt Disney and helped design theme parks and, and read Martin replaced him. Now read the bald guy in the company. And I were in the drama department together at university of California at Berkeley. And along with Jess Winfield, he had been in that department as well. So when Jess, when Daniel left, Jess thought of Reed, when Jess left that both thought of me. And, and, and, and so now for the last 30 ish years, Reed and I have been running the company as the original guys have fallen away and we've expanded our repertoire of plays.

5 (1h 0m 28s):
So it's not just the complete works of William Shakespeare. It's now reducing other huge, boring topics at short. So they complete the complete funny, you should ask the complete history of America, abridged the Bible, the complete word of God abridged. Now I'm looking at the show, all the great books of brands, every book, every book you should have read in high school, but probably didn't completely Hollywood abridged, all the great movies, all the, all the world complete world of sports abridged and of the ultimate Christmas show. And then our last brief, our final two shows our most recent two shows have taken us back to our, our, our Shakespearian roots.

5 (1h 1m 9s):
Cause we have written William Shakespeare's long, lost first play abridged and, and our new show, which we will is two years old now, but we've only had seven performances because of the pandemic that shut everything down is Hamlet's big adventure. A pre-K

1 (1h 1m 23s):
Fantastic. So I just want to say, like, there is, it's interesting. We talk a lot to people obviously to artists and there's something like magic. So getting to sort of discovered at the fringe festival and Edinburgh is like the dream, right? So like I just show at the fringe in New York, my show was not discovered. Let's just say like, that was it for the show basically. And like something special happens like that is the dream, right. That they have this sort of love for language and love for Shakespeare and wanted to make clearly fun and funny and accessible to people. And I'm just so it's like, the timing must have been so right for that specific thing at that specific time in Edinburgh for then it became, I mean the dream, they became a full time job for them.

1 (1h 2m 13s):
Like that is like the dream. So do you think it's just like, it's just you, do you both think it's like the magic, like timing mixed with like that, cause the most shows that go to fringe festivals, that's it like that? Is it like the Swan song if that's even, so what, what made it so desirable to other companies, do you think?

5 (1h 2m 33s):
I think it was the, the, on the ensemble. How well, how well the three guys played with each other. They'd been doing it in at Ren fairs and playing it in front of audiences of all different types and all different in all different kinds of situations, outdoors, indoors. So they were extremely tight and there had been commercial productions of the complete works without members of the reduced Shakespeare company. And they've all kind of failed because bringing in three, three actors, no matter how good they are, you don't have that same sense of ensemble and same sense of timing that, that, that we do who have been doing it for years. I mean, we always thought of ourselves as as much a comedy team as a theater company.

5 (1h 3m 18s):
So when we're hiring new actors, we're looking for the three comic spokes of the wheel or legs of the stool, right. To hold everything up again, part of the problem is sometimes you get three identical guys. You can't tell them apart, they have completely identical energies and comedy wants that construction. So, so if I'm, and these are based on Commedia archetypes, but more recently we talk about, you know, the, the Marx brothers or the three Stooges or, you know, as other different archetypes, like, like when, like when I'm directing replacements for Reed, Reed is our, our Mo figure from the Stooges.

5 (1h 3m 59s):
You know, the one who like, come on, you guys knock it off. Right? Remember my brother, you know, he's that guy. And I almost invariably have to tell the actors. And it's hard when they're working with me because I'm their boss. You know, I say, you gotta bring, bring it more. You gotta bring the heat. You got to access your inner Mo a little bit because this, the comedy depends on you driving the rhythm and the rest. Other people can be funny in different ways. And that's another thing we people need to understand is how to be funny in different ways and also how to serve the text. It sounds like anarchy, but it's not. We actually have a task to reduce a huge topic to two hours that task we take incredibly seriously.

5 (1h 4m 42s):
So cause if it's just guys, you know, wanking off for two hours late, plenty of Shakespeare joke, then there's nothing compelling from a narrative standpoint. And as silly as these shows are they do have a narrative urgency or should

2 (1h 4m 57s):
What, what, what does the notion of something being a bridge afford you, that doing the complete, just doing one play.

5 (1h 5m 9s):
I mean the, probably the best thing is it F it affords us to get to the point, you know, to get to the thing that really interested in boss, you were asking about, you know, why was the timing so good? I think one of the time in things in 1987, late eighties was the rise of MTV, the bite size MTV generation, no attention span, young people, stupid young people in England. I think we capitalized on the fact that we did Shakespeare the way the Brits think Americans would do Shakespeare, which is BA you know, badly irreverently. And yet there are those moments.

5 (1h 5m 50s):
There are those moments where in all of our shows where we stop and actually get very serious for a second. And, and the response typically is, oh, these guys could do this for real, if they want it, you know, and that's a nice thing. It's like seeing spinal tap, these guys are excellent musicians. They also happen to be really funny if they, it would, the joke wouldn't work as well, if they were not as good music.

1 (1h 6m 14s):
So there's something about, you know, what, I'm, what I'm, what I'm really taking from. This is like, there's something about the level of commitment that is essential to making art work. Like, even if you're committed to the wonkiness the weirdness, and we, we talk a lot about, we've been talking a lot about world building or like community building. Do you, everyone has to buy in that this is a complete world. They can trust, even if it's absurd, even if it's about the Elizabethan times, even, you know, we got to buy in. So the commitment can't just be, this is a gimmick, right? So it has to be, I like what you said about like that, that they could do the seriously if they wanted.

1 (1h 6m 55s):
Like, I think that is the thing about comedy is that, you know, or like something like the office works, because you can tell that the commitment and the talent is there, even though they're talking about fucking insane, crazy, stupid shit. So it's amazing.

5 (1h 7m 11s):
And if you're not committed, why should the audience, why should the audience invest if you're not invested, but to your point, Gina, about what does this afford us? I think it affords us to kind of get to the point, get to somehow essential truths under the guise of we're just throwing it all into a blender and having fun with it. You know, it's, it's, whenever people say you can't make a joke about a thing, particularly a sensitive thing or a horrible thing, that's the worst part. If like somebody dying or something, or, or somebody has done some nefarious, horrible crime and you can't make a joke about it.

5 (1h 7m 52s):
I said, well, it's, it's, it's rarely the joke. That's the problem. It's the thing that we're making the joke about. That is the problem. And I think that's valuable in the, in, in the, in the case of like our more recent shows, like the ultimate Christmas show, we just said, it's the only Christmas show you'll ever need to see, because it's got every, every winter holiday crammed into 90 minutes, but like William Shakespeare's long lost play a bridged. We conceived as sort of first draft Shakespeare. It's his very first play. He was still a genius, but had zero craft. And, and so he put every single storyline and every single character and every single famous speech into one, 100 hour long unpronounceable thing that he was not old enough or experienced enough to know, just to know that that's an unpredictable.

5 (1h 8m 38s):
So in our script, we reduce it down to a manageable two hours. And it's been in the few student productions I've seen of it. It's been kind of wonderful because you get to have students going at going after really great material without having to do the whole play around it.

2 (1h 8m 59s):
Yeah. And I'm imagining that the, what the audience likes about this is the accessibility and feeling like, oh, okay. I wouldn't have normally gone to see a Shakespeare play because I would be afraid that I wouldn't understand it, but these people have already told me before I've ever gone to see it, that they're going to make this extremely, they're going to give me the cliff notes, which is all I would've read in high school anyway. Right. And, and what I bet when people leave that show, they're saying, oh, I get it. I understand Shakespeare. Like I understand the language or I understand. And I understand why it's still relevant.

5 (1h 9m 40s):
Well, and that's the thing we D we discover all the time, which is that people come well for one, I've talked to enough young people now, like in their twenties, like my kid's age, who said, oh my God, you were the first Shakespeare production I ever saw when they played our, your video in English class or whatever. And I will say, as a reward or punishment usually is reward. Oh, shoot. What was I going to say?

2 (1h 10m 6s):
Like she said, you like, oh

5 (1h 10m 9s):
Yeah, that's right. And, and the other point about that is that people come to the like, grownups will come and see our show going, no, I hate Shakespeare. Why am I being dragged here by my PR partner? And then they come out of it going, wait, I knew more Shakespeare than I thought I did because Shakespeare is everywhere. Shakespeare. Every time I turn, every time some Shakespeare gets mentioned in any of the TV or films, I watch, I yell, drink. And thankfully I don't drink because I'd be hammered by the time because he's there all the time. So we make the audience feel smarter. And I think that's.

2 (1h 10m 42s):
Yeah. Okay. But what about with the Bible? So my first thought, when he said, you did this read the Bible, I was like, okay, this is sort of a book of Mormon ish. You know, like a send-up of religion, but is it a send-up what's what was the, why did you pay for the Bible to convince?

5 (1h 10m 60s):
Because we had done one of the reasons they thought of me to join the company in 92 was because they, they, they were getting to be know that sh the complete works was like five years old, getting to be five years old at that point and venues where they had performance said, this is great. You guys, what else you got? There was danger of them being a one trick pony. And it was a really good trick, but, you know, people wanted other things. And so we thought that the conversation was sort of a, what we had been, we'd been, we were very famous in England, more famous in England than we were here and in the states, and, and the thinking was, what can we, what can we write about what can we reduce that, that Americans take as seriously as the Brits take Shakespeare?

5 (1h 11m 45s):
And we thought, Ooh, ourselves. So we wrote the complete history of America abridged, and we were booked at the Kennedy center in 93, I think. Yeah, 93 and in rep with the complete works. And, and then, but, but the complete history of America then got extended to five weeks, then seven weeks. And we ended up playing the entire summer of 12 weeks at the Kennedy center with the complete history of America bridged. And that got us onto national public radio. That started getting us a lot more attention in this country and the Kennedy center that said, this was great. What else could we, we do.

5 (1h 12m 26s):
And we had been approached by Israeli television to do a half hour reduction film of the Bible for Israeli television. And it fell through as most of our television deals do, but we told the Kennedy center, he said, well, we have w we could do, we could reduce the Bible old Testament first act second act in Israel. It'll just be a one act w and the Kennedy center. That's how different times were, this was back in 94, 95, the Kennedy center said, oh yeah, that sounds great. You write it and come back and perform it here next summer. Boom. That was it. How'd it go? How'd it go really well. It cause again, different times it was in the nineties, the reviews, the reviews were great.

5 (1h 13m 11s):
The audiences were great. It was nominated for a Helen Hayes award for best new play. If the response was really good and, and we had three different writers. So we, I mean, at Reed and Adam Long, one of the founding members of the RSC was still with us at that time. And, and, and me and Reed was very not devout, but he was a church goer. His parents were born again. Adam was raised, raised a Catholic Meritage Jew and was a practicing Buddhist. So he was Buju Cadillac or something like that. He had, he has a phrase for it. And, and I was basically agnostic leading to atheism atheism, but mostly agnostic.

5 (1h 13m 55s):
I don't believe I don't care, but they're great stories. So for us, it was, I mean, honestly, and this is the secret for all of the things that we reduce and make fun of is that it was a celebration of the subject matter. And again, it didn't seem so bold and dangerous and controversial back in the nineties, it was a celebration of the greatest book ever. Right. And at that with some of our marketing site was, was the, was saying, the good book just got,

1 (1h 14m 24s):
Oh my God, that's fantastic. Wait, I go to Ms. Happy. Cause I'm like, as writer, as a writer, I'm like super curious, even the F the freaking process of how do you start? Like you have the Bible. Okay. There it is. What do you do? How did you, how do you do, that's like the weirdest writer's room ever. How do you break down the Bible?

5 (1h 14m 46s):
Well, I mean, the Bible, at least like Shakespeare's plays has a structure. You know, they have books, every, you know, there are books that you can follow and reduce. And, and basically we started at the very beginning and work our way through. And, you know, w we learned writing the America show, the America show was harder because, well, it was harder in one sense, because how do you pick what to do? But it was easier in a certain sense, because you could just go chronologically, right? So that, that worked, that worked fine. But we learned sitting around that table that we can't right. Sitting around a table, not, we can't, anyway, we would argue about nonsense about participles.

5 (1h 15m 26s):
So rather than sit there, you know, we'd say, oh, I have an idea about Lewis and Clark. Let me go in and do that. I have an idea about doing the cold war as a film, more let's let me try that. I've got to think about a thing. So then we go away and write, and then we come back together and we read what we have, and now we have something concrete to look at to, to edit. And sometimes we go, yeah, that doesn't work. And sometimes we go, oh, I there's a germ of an idea. There, can I, can I take it next and see what I can,

1 (1h 15m 54s):
You really have to trust each other implicitly, like it. And also there's a certain level of, cause there's two things going on. There's this subject matter is huge. And also, so you have to trust each other. You have to believe in each other and you have to know each other. And also, yeah, there has to be a spirit of still of playfulness based on, right? Like, did you guys, it sounds like a lot, like a lot of improv training. Did you all have improv training?

5 (1h 16m 23s):
We all had some improv training, but none of us were truly improvisers, but we were all theater people. We had all worked in ensembles. We had all, some of us read had written a play, a very funny play in college. I wrote a musical in college. Adam helped write the complete works. So none of us were complete neophytes in terms of, of being writers. And, and I mean, the other thing we learned over time, and now it's not, we don't even worry about it anymore is that there's no point in arguing. What's funny, you put it up on its feet and in front of people. And if they laugh, it's funny. And if they don't, it isn't. And so it's, it's fairly binary.

5 (1h 17m 4s):
So that's that, that, that stopped us from having to have a lot of stupid around the table. We'll just try it, just try it. And so back then we had that ability in terms of, in terms of the Bible, we did, I will say, I said it wasn't controversial, but, but, but we were conscious of the fact that, you know, there are probably some people who are probably going to be, think we're not, we're not being this isn't cool. So we bent over backwards to not put anything horribly offensive in there. The judge, the sex jokes, wouldn't be too dirty. You know, although we do have a scene, but this is political. This is medical. This it's the same between Abraham and God, where God is telling him to circumcise his son in God's honor.

5 (1h 17m 51s):
And so that's a very funny conversation talking about penises and for skins and useless bits of flesh, but in re re in reality, the Bible show is our jet. You genuinely most G-rated show

2 (1h 18m 7s):
So good that worked out. I mean,

5 (1h 18m 10s):
Yeah, no, of course. Now, of course it's self-censoring and we got, we got a letter once from after hurricane Katrina. Maybe I think somebody wrote us a letter. I'll take the time to write a, an actual letter. This was still on the time of email Rhoda, an actual letter saying, Hey, I just saw that there were a lot of productions of the complete word of God, a bridge, a blasphemous play in the path of hurricane Katrina. How dare you. You brought this down upon Ababa. And I wanted to write back and point out all the churches that were in the path of her Trina. And I was advised that a sleeping dogs lie discretion to the better part of valor to use two different.

2 (1h 18m 51s):
I love it. I love it. So I'm going to ask you a question that you don't have to answer, and if you don't want to answer it, we'll just, we'll

5 (1h 19m 0s):
Just cut it out. I'm tired of talking about my sexuality

2 (1h 19m 4s):
In looking at the reduced Shakespeare company website, looking at affiliated artists. I don't know if it's a complete list or not. It's, I'm going to say it's like 95% white men. So what's it been like for you guys over the last couple of years as theater is having, having a huge reckoning with race?

5 (1h 19m 29s):
It's been great because we have been trying to change it up for years and I, and the reason we have it, it's nobody's fault, but our own, you know, it's just, you know, laziness. And also we don't read and I don't pay ourselves when we're not actually writing or directing. So we, we have other jobs, we have other jobs, but it's been great because 20 years, well, 23 years ago, now we did the complete millennium musical abridged. And it was, it was me and it was me and Reed. And a third, the third actor was a woman, specifically my wife, the one with the BFA in musical theater and experience at second city as an improviser and a comedian, why wouldn't you?

5 (1h 20m 17s):
And it was great. And it was so well received and the songs were funny, but it was about the millennium. So it died a quick death. Nobody was interested, but weirdly many theaters where we performed Kennedy center was one Pittsburgh public theater was another many people where we had performed. It had seen our previous shows said, this is great. D is great. My not that's my wife. She's great, but really you're, you're a three man. We were told this. Wow, well, no. Why, what why? So that sent us down a particular, it didn't send us down.

5 (1h 20m 59s):
It inhibited change earlier than it should have happened because we know a ton of funny women. We also know a ton of funny actors of color, but we haven't been good enough about reaching out to them and getting them we've had, we've been, we've had a lot of different genders in the cast and backstage, but that's not a thing that one sees on a website, lots of Latinos, lots of Jews, but they don't count. Right. In terms of visibility in terms of, I made, if we're going to have the conversation, let's be honest about, you know.

5 (1h 21m 40s):
Yeah. But I don't see a darker face on that. Okay. So it really is about colorism really. Okay. We have now hired three new actors and all of them, none of them, white men, they're all hysterical. And we were supposed to have our first performance with some of these new cast members this week, as we record, those have been postponed till the fall. We were supposed to have one of the, one of our other new actors play on February 11th and 12th. That's been postponed now. So now our next performances are not in April, but we hope to bring in all of our new, new, diverse, and crucially younger actors to come in.

5 (1h 22m 25s):
So, I mean, I think the reckoning has been great long overdue and terrific.

2 (1h 22m 32s):
Okay, good. I'm really glad to hear you say that. So what I mean without, I guess you don't have to give anything away, but like what's the direction that you're, that you see the company going on in the next, you know, couple of decades, more bridging of more, I mean, cause there's probably a limited number of huge canons of work that you can condense.

5 (1h 22m 57s):
So

2 (1h 22m 59s):
Yeah, sure.

5 (1h 23m 2s):
Well, you're adorable thinking we have direction. So thank you for it's. It's an interesting question. I mean, right now our goal is survive. The pandemic. We have the, one of the few reasons. Well, one of the biggest reasons we've been able to survive is that we have very little overhead. We're a theater company without our own building. We have one full-time employee and we had to furlough her down to half-time she's our office manager, props and wardrobe goddess, you know, but, but Reed handles a lot of the business work. His wife is our general manager. They met when she was running the theater, a theater in Ireland.

5 (1h 23m 45s):
And then while we were in London, she was running a theater there. And now she's when she's not teaching high school drama and English, she's running our theater. And so they handle the business with my putting in 2 cents every now and then I do the weekly podcast. I do the company's social media where I, I guess I drive some of the, some of the writing a little bit, but I mean, that's another thing we've been doing as part of this pandemic. And part of the, is part of the development of the company or the future longevity of the company is this in the last couple of months, Reed and I have been updating our scripts because they were all very, I mean, there was, I mean, jokes, all kinds of jokes go past their sell by date.

5 (1h 24m 36s):
And nothing proves you that you are old and out of touch and not funny, faster than complaining how the young people won't let you tell your jokes anymore. Right? Totally. You know what you want people aren't laughing at your jokes tell better jokes. So our scripts are almost all of them, except for Hamlet's big adventure. The latest one had been published, but they are now printed on demand. So it's not that hard to change the scripts. So we've been up the, the America show. We would update a lot anyway, cause every four years we would take it out as an election special election edition and, and, and put an improvised section in the second act where the two leading candidates for the for president would take questions from the audience in real time.

5 (1h 25m 24s):
And that was always fun. But some of the more recent shows I'm in the more popular shows, all the great books, completely Hollywood, if a complete history of comedy, a bridged ultimate Christmas and, and long lost, we've gone through w w we've done try to do two things, go, go through and either update the jokes that are now out of date, or get rid of the jokes that may have been funny five or 10 years ago. But aren't funny now. And arguably, maybe they weren't that funny that to some people, but the other thing is, all of our shows are very meta and we have always told the truth and the scripts about the, the white man demographic of the, of the people doing this comedy.

5 (1h 26m 8s):
I mean, we've always tried to use our identities as, as comic fodder. And so whenever we, whenever we get a new actor in the company, we change those jokes and change those references. So they fit better with the actors on stage. And what we're trying to do is go through the script and make them less dependent on a specific demographic like old white guys. Well, we weren't that old then, but, but going through and just getting rid of the, too many of the gender signifiers, because there really isn't any reason why it needs to be five, you know, it's so

1 (1h 26m 44s):
I got to say, it's so interesting to hear and, and lovely actually, to hear that, like, here's the deal like you got to update your shit. Like, I don't think people like to change. Right. And Gina and I we're both therapists. We get it. Like, nobody likes change. It fucking sucks. But if you want to not be obsolete, you have to change. And I think it's great that you, that you take the reckoning of sorts and make changes versus dig your heels in because then it doesn't work. And so I actually, it gives me hope that you're changing shit because a lot of people that we talk to are like, you know, yes, the reckoning is great, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1 (1h 27m 25s):
I'm going to do my best, but we don't really know what we're doing instead of saying no, we're going to make the changes. Let's just make the changes. It's hard. It's

5 (1h 27m 34s):
Yeah. Well, and nobody, nobody wants to be on stage telling a joke that gets booze instead of laughs you know, at least of all us and the, I mean, this, this particular reckoning about the scripts started about four or five years ago when we both started teaching college more frequently and we'd get pushback from our students going, wait, wait, is this funny? I said, Ellie was all I could tell you is that it was, but it isn't now. And I get that, you know? And so that's been, you know, if you're going to be any kind of teacher at all, you got to listen to your students. And if you're just going to get pissed because your students have a different opinion that maybe you shouldn't be teaching,

2 (1h 28m 12s):
I love that. I just heard something that I'm going to try to incorporate, which is if you're over 40, you should strive to have an 30 and under mentor, not a mentee, but a younger person. Who's much younger than you as your mentor, as a way of keeping current with progress. I, I echo what Bob is saying. It gives me a lot of hope what you're saying, because not that a lot of people wouldn't answer that question necessarily, but it would make a lot of people uncomfortable and it would make a lot of people give like a very pat answer. And really what, how I'm interpreting, what you're saying is I'm not afraid to say that what we, what we really thought was the bees knees.

2 (1h 28m 59s):
Then we S we see hasn't has it worn very well. Hasn't aged very well. And, and your goal is still, your goal is not to protect your pride from 20 years ago. Your goal is to make your audiences continue to like the work that's what everybody's goal should be, but everybody gets caught up in their own ego about it. Okay.

5 (1h 29m 21s):
And, and the thing is, I mean, this is the biggest argument to go to college as far as I'm concerned, is that the more, you know, the more there is to laugh at, you know, life becomes full, full of richer comedy because of it. And the biggest reason to get more different types of people on stage is that there are more different types of jokes. You can then tell.

1 (1h 29m 43s):
I think comedy is it's really great that comedy allows us to do this because people who do just straight drama and gene and I were just talking about this, like straight drama is like, takes itself. So freaking seriously, that comedy is a really good meter for what is going on in the world. Right? And so if you can write comedy and you can say, okay, like that, wasn't funny. And the reason I know it, wasn't funny is actually I tested it out and nobody laughed. Like you're saying, it's binary. Like you have a thing is where drama is a little more subjective. Whether you're moved by something comedy, it's like, no, the fucking people didn't laugh. So it's not funny. Like, there you go.

5 (1h 30m 24s):
Some of our favorite reviews are the ones that said this was horribly unfunny. Despite the hundreds of people in the audience yes. Was not,

2 (1h 30m 34s):
Oh, I love that. I love that. Well, honestly, we're gonna have to wrap up soon, but was there, is there any anecdote or thing that you want to share from your theater school days or,

5 (1h 30m 47s):
Oh gosh. Which w which one should I choose

1 (1h 30m 53s):
Theater school, whether undergrad or grad where you were like, what is happening? Why am I doing this? Or, or I can't believe that just happened.

5 (1h 31m 6s):
Wow,

1 (1h 31m 7s):
God, I can think of one. And then you think of yours. I just had a flashback to, we had to Rick Murphy, our teacher had us doing an exercise where we were blindfolded and we had to do movement around the room with each other blindfolded. And, and there was always a jackass who decided to do some crazy ninja tumbling moves and bashed into me. And I just remember, I really was hurt in that exercise. And because someone's ego decided blindfold that I'm going to do a crazy karate kick and kick someone in the face now, why come on?

1 (1h 31m 47s):
Anyway, I just thought of that because I hurt myself the other day. And I was like, yeah. And I think it might've been taped actually. But anyway, so we'll share that. And that just came to mind too, to take some pressure

5 (1h 31m 59s):
Off. I know if that made me think that there you go. Well, it didn't make me think of anything specific except except one thing that I really loved about Boston university, again, again, there was not, there was some direction, but not a lot. It was internally directed. And I had directed some musicals in high school while, and in college. And I, I thought, I thought, I just don't want to do that. I wanted to challenge myself. And so when I was at BU I directed like all different kinds of plays, and that was just really rewarding that I got the opportunity to do this.

5 (1h 32m 44s):
Like I did a 1930s drawing English drawing room thing on an eight foot by eight foot square, where the audience was on two risers. Like the whole thing wasn't bigger than 30 feet square. I directed a Sam Shepard play full for love. I directed up big broad Neil, Simon comedy. I directed Joe. Orton's what the Butler saw a fan. You know, one of the greatest modern farces very problematic right now in terms of, in terms of how some of those jokes play. But I also, and then I directed bent, bent, and it was, again, this, this was in 80 19 84, you know, so kind of right in the teeth of, of what was happening with aids and everything.

5 (1h 33m 33s):
And there was one professor there at BU Rick winter, he was married to Bob chaplain. Bob chaplain was one of Kristen Linklaters either assistants or disciples, just one of the finest voice teachers ever. And one of the, just the most amazing teachers I ever had. And, and, and, and Rick was the one stop shopping for all the students that were worried about aids and what they could do and where they could get information and where they could get, you know, where they could be heard. And so I directed bent, and wasn't even aware of how important that play had become to so many of the students, because we were just rehearsing.

5 (1h 34m 16s):
And I was just trying to make it happen in with all the limitations that you have in a student program. And at the end of it, at the end of the final performance that you see, there were, people were so packed in the room and, and, and people were standing. People were weeping. People. Rick came up to me and just looked at me and I fucking burst into tears. I had no idea. I had this, this reservoir of Pence up feeling about the thing and I, and it, and it told me something, it told me something important about not only the actors on stage or the play being stage, but the audience that's hearing it, the audience that's receiving it and how they're taking it and how that we, and how we are working in tandem, working together in the theatrical space to create this event.

5 (1h 35m 12s):
And I, that's the story that comes to me when you ask us,

2 (1h 35m 17s):
Yeah, very, very meaningful and very much at the heart of why people, you know, do theater before we let you go. What is your podcast about,

5 (1h 35m 28s):
Ah, the reduced Shakespeare company podcast, the very imaginatively named reduced Shakespeare company podcasts, what it says on the tin. It, we started it in December of 2006. I've been doing it every week since then. I just dropped my 789th episode. So we've been doing it for 8, 789 weeks. It's it started off because we had been, we had been running in England for 10 years at the criterion theater and Piccadilly. And we had closed in 2005 and we thought, well, what, what can we do to do something, to give our fans in England and kind of around the world and Matt croak, who, you know, was, was the podcast whisperer, just say, you got to get on this.

5 (1h 36m 13s):
Guy's got to get on this. We've done so much radio. We've done that BBC world service radio show. We'd been on NPR, a bunch. We love audio comedy, but the thought of creating content every week was daunting writing. But I thought, well, wait a second, I can just turn on a microphone and just, we could just talk, we could riff for 15 or 20 minutes, and that would give people something, it'd be a little bit like the Beatles Christmas records that they would send in their fans at the end of every year would, they would just turn on a microphone for 15 or 20 minutes and they would do whatever they do, and then they turn it off and send it out. And that's kind of what I've been doing. And it was about three or four months in to the thing that I realized, well, wait a second. I could, I don't, it doesn't just does it.

5 (1h 36m 54s):
Doesn't have to be just the reduced Shakespeare company. I can talk to many people, anybody about what they do. And, and, and with my wife's the, the second city Chicago comedy mafia that, that, that I'm a member of by marriage has so many, you know, famous and successful people that I've, I've pimped a bunch of them to be my guests on podcasts. But, but as we've toured around the world, we have met so many interesting artists and actors and comedians and writers and directors and novelists and, and, and, and people. And it's just been, it's been a treat cause I'm definitely not getting paid to do the podcast. I don't have a sponsor, but it's only 15 or 20 minutes long.

5 (1h 37m 35s):
And it's been enormous fun because I just get to talk to all these people and then share that conversation. So

2 (1h 37m 56s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five-star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina Polizzi are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina <em></em> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?