WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.026 --> 00:00:04.556 Jethro D. Jones: to Transformative Principal. 00:00:04.556 --> 00:00:08.276 I am very excited to have on the program today, Emily Alki. 00:00:08.306 --> 00:00:12.356 She is a former high school business computer education teacher, turned 00:00:12.356 --> 00:00:15.476 curriculum geek, and she's the vice president of the Curriculum 00:00:15.476 --> 00:00:18.536 Leadership Institute, which is a nonprofit organization that partners 00:00:18.536 --> 00:00:21.866 with school districts to improve teaching and learning by developing 00:00:21.866 --> 00:00:24.116 a local curriculum first, which. 00:00:24.491 --> 00:00:30.271 If you know me, I love this idea and want you to also, check out episode 00:00:30.271 --> 00:00:35.221 6 57 of Transformative Principle, which is called Using AI Layering to 00:00:35.221 --> 00:00:37.141 create hyper localized curriculum. 00:00:37.141 --> 00:00:42.691 I. Brent on that one, talked about what he's doing and it is amazing. 00:00:42.691 --> 00:00:44.821 So you're gonna wanna listen to that one. 00:00:44.821 --> 00:00:47.701 And this one, I'm sure we're gonna touch on some things. 00:00:47.761 --> 00:00:50.611 That one just released, so Emily hasn't heard it yet. 00:00:50.771 --> 00:00:55.601 And she, can't speak to it yet, but I'll bring in some things from that. 00:00:55.601 --> 00:00:57.041 So we're gonna start with that. 00:00:57.041 --> 00:00:57.461 And. 00:00:58.286 --> 00:01:03.686 If you've heard this name Alki before, you know that I love the Alki family, 00:01:03.746 --> 00:01:06.266 all of them, and I'm really excited. 00:01:06.546 --> 00:01:09.006 Emily and I have been chatting for the past few years. 00:01:09.056 --> 00:01:12.476 She is Eric Mackey's wife, and and. 00:01:13.346 --> 00:01:17.396 didn't realize that this family is in education. 00:01:17.426 --> 00:01:21.566 When I first met Eric so many years ago, and now each time I meet a new one, 00:01:21.566 --> 00:01:23.696 I'm just like, Hey, you're awesome too. 00:01:23.726 --> 00:01:25.946 So Emily, welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:01:25.946 --> 00:01:27.026 I'm so glad to have you. 00:01:27.161 --> 00:01:27.671 Emily Makelky: Thank you. 00:01:27.671 --> 00:01:31.751 Thank You I'm, I'm obviously excited to talk about curriculum today. 00:01:32.321 --> 00:01:37.751 But, when you used to have Eric on the podcast, for so long, I always kinda 00:01:37.751 --> 00:01:41.681 wondered, are you gonna pull his wife in to talk about the emotional side 00:01:41.891 --> 00:01:45.011 or being the spouse of a principal? 00:01:45.041 --> 00:01:46.031 Because it's heavy. 00:01:46.121 --> 00:01:47.291 It's heavy for sure. 00:01:47.951 --> 00:01:48.581 Jethro D. Jones: it is. 00:01:48.581 --> 00:01:51.521 And we, won't talk about that today. 00:01:51.521 --> 00:01:53.681 I won't put you on the spot 'cause that was not the plan. 00:01:54.891 --> 00:01:58.781 But, we should at some point, have some spouses on because, 00:01:58.831 --> 00:02:00.271 spouses carry a big burden. 00:02:00.271 --> 00:02:01.621 And my wife certainly has. 00:02:02.341 --> 00:02:04.561 you have, lots of spouses have. 00:02:04.561 --> 00:02:08.991 And I'm sure that would be an interesting little, discussion to have about how 00:02:08.991 --> 00:02:10.971 to manage that from the other side. 00:02:12.291 --> 00:02:16.256 Emily Makelky: It would be, I, I would assume that, all the principals would 00:02:16.256 --> 00:02:18.296 just be like, I know I've heard it. 00:02:18.296 --> 00:02:18.896 I know. 00:02:19.021 --> 00:02:19.311 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:02:21.356 --> 00:02:21.866 Yeah. 00:02:22.196 --> 00:02:22.796 Emily Makelky: anyway. 00:02:23.006 --> 00:02:23.666 Jethro D. Jones: that's good. 00:02:24.026 --> 00:02:26.166 we're gonna talk about curriculum today, 00:02:26.451 --> 00:02:26.801 Emily Makelky: Great. 00:02:26.936 --> 00:02:32.016 Jethro D. Jones: so I wanna start by talking about the, the difference between, 00:02:33.126 --> 00:02:36.756 what curriculum is, how you see it, and then let's talk about the difference 00:02:36.756 --> 00:02:41.406 between curriculum and resources, and then we can get into some other things. 00:02:41.451 --> 00:02:41.841 Emily Makelky: bet. 00:02:42.321 --> 00:02:42.561 You bet. 00:02:42.736 --> 00:02:47.016 I, think it's actually really simple, curriculum, I would say the definition 00:02:47.016 --> 00:02:50.166 of curriculum is simply, what is it that. 00:02:50.646 --> 00:02:54.316 We're teaching our kids, what is it that we value in our district, 00:02:54.646 --> 00:02:55.876 and our kids need to learn. 00:02:56.386 --> 00:03:00.116 And really it's just the what, there are, in teaching and learning, there's the 00:03:00.116 --> 00:03:01.706 what, there's the why, there's the how. 00:03:01.706 --> 00:03:06.316 There's the how do and pulling it back to our, the PLC questions, 00:03:06.346 --> 00:03:08.146 it is the first PLC question. 00:03:08.146 --> 00:03:10.096 What do we want kids to know and be able to do? 00:03:10.426 --> 00:03:13.096 That essentially is the curriculum piece. 00:03:13.546 --> 00:03:17.776 And thinking about kind of the, differences between 00:03:17.776 --> 00:03:20.226 that and, and, resources. 00:03:20.226 --> 00:03:23.556 I think that the two are confused very often. 00:03:24.216 --> 00:03:27.576 Especially when you're talking to say elementary teachers. 00:03:27.706 --> 00:03:31.786 Very often in elementary schools they talk about, we teach this 00:03:31.786 --> 00:03:33.646 curriculum and they will name. 00:03:33.991 --> 00:03:36.991 A resource or a program that they teach. 00:03:37.231 --> 00:03:42.031 But truly what I would say is that the curriculum comes even 00:03:42.031 --> 00:03:47.881 before you adopt that program and figure out within our district or 00:03:47.881 --> 00:03:50.851 within our schools, what is it? 00:03:51.121 --> 00:03:55.231 What skills, what content, what knowledge do we want our kids to 00:03:55.231 --> 00:03:59.581 know and be able to do, and then find resources to support that. 00:04:00.886 --> 00:04:06.256 Jethro D. Jones: so the resources is more the how we teach it or the, with what 00:04:07.561 --> 00:04:08.011 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:04:08.076 --> 00:04:10.896 Jethro D. Jones: so what about curriculum versus standards? 00:04:10.896 --> 00:04:16.686 Because in my experience, I would say that you're describing as a curriculum 00:04:16.686 --> 00:04:22.446 is really the standards and the resources is the curriculum, the how you teach the 00:04:22.446 --> 00:04:24.566 standards, how, where do you fall on that? 00:04:24.581 --> 00:04:25.211 Emily Makelky: You bet. 00:04:25.691 --> 00:04:29.461 standards of course, are, adopted or created by the state. 00:04:30.326 --> 00:04:35.996 And they basically tell, your teachers or your school districts, hey, within 00:04:35.996 --> 00:04:39.026 that state, hey, this is what kids need to know and be able to do. 00:04:39.236 --> 00:04:42.326 But the thing about those, there's, two things that I want to point out. 00:04:42.326 --> 00:04:44.996 The first is that, actually is the minimum. 00:04:45.266 --> 00:04:48.446 And some teachers, probably, especially math teachers right 00:04:48.446 --> 00:04:50.936 now are saying like, what? 00:04:50.996 --> 00:04:53.366 That's the minimum and you expect us to teach more. 00:04:53.586 --> 00:04:54.786 Nope, not necessarily. 00:04:54.786 --> 00:05:00.726 I don't expect you to teach more, but if there are some skills or, if 00:05:00.726 --> 00:05:05.666 there's content that is not included, or that are not included in your state 00:05:05.666 --> 00:05:10.496 standards, but that you value as a school district, as a community, and 00:05:10.496 --> 00:05:15.146 you want to include that, you can, you have the, per you have permission, you 00:05:15.146 --> 00:05:18.826 have the flexibility to do that and include that into your, curriculum. 00:05:20.186 --> 00:05:24.086 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, so we won't get into this whole discussion about the 00:05:24.086 --> 00:05:29.156 minimum standard and whether or not states trying to force too much or, any of that 00:05:29.301 --> 00:05:29.631 Emily Makelky: Sure. 00:05:29.696 --> 00:05:31.226 Jethro D. Jones: that's a whole separate discussion. 00:05:31.226 --> 00:05:35.636 And we're just going to recognize that if you work in the United States, the 00:05:35.636 --> 00:05:40.166 state has a curriculum or a, set of standards that you are required, that's 00:05:40.346 --> 00:05:41.966 the minimum that you should be teaching. 00:05:42.801 --> 00:05:43.281 Emily Makelky: Correct. 00:05:43.341 --> 00:05:45.891 Jethro D. Jones: and we can agree with that and be, and we can 00:05:45.891 --> 00:05:47.241 move on from that discussion. 00:05:47.621 --> 00:05:53.531 Because the key piece here is that you basically have to make sure 00:05:53.591 --> 00:05:56.651 that those things that are supposed to be taught are actually taught. 00:05:56.681 --> 00:05:59.951 And if that's the case, then you're doing the job that the state is 00:05:59.951 --> 00:06:02.801 requiring, which totally fine. 00:06:03.281 --> 00:06:09.221 But for anybody to think that minimum is the like. 00:06:10.031 --> 00:06:14.261 Is the doctrine, the thing that, that only this and nothing but 00:06:14.261 --> 00:06:18.721 this is, just crazy in my mind. 00:06:18.761 --> 00:06:19.051 Emily Makelky: Sure. 00:06:19.291 --> 00:06:21.211 Jethro D. Jones: this whole like solo scriptura thing. 00:06:21.211 --> 00:06:23.911 Like this is the only thing and we can't accept anything 00:06:24.106 --> 00:06:24.526 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:06:24.721 --> 00:06:27.541 Jethro D. Jones: Only the standards that the state says is all we can teach. 00:06:27.781 --> 00:06:29.461 That seems a little bizarre, right? 00:06:29.521 --> 00:06:30.241 Emily Makelky: I agree. 00:06:30.241 --> 00:06:35.531 And I would honestly say that would, to me, it sounds like a cop out, for, 00:06:35.531 --> 00:06:40.421 teachers or school districts to say, no, we can't do more than what the state says. 00:06:40.421 --> 00:06:42.851 I would just say that's a cop out. 00:06:43.141 --> 00:06:48.281 You absolutely can, and and perhaps you should, depending on, on, on 00:06:48.281 --> 00:06:50.141 the factors in your school district. 00:06:50.441 --> 00:06:50.891 Jethro D. Jones: yes. 00:06:50.951 --> 00:06:54.281 And you, it's going to be hard to not. 00:06:54.656 --> 00:06:59.936 Do more than the standards because you, there, there's the implicit curriculum, 00:07:00.186 --> 00:07:03.726 the explicit curriculum, and then other biases and things that you bring in 00:07:03.966 --> 00:07:08.586 and things that you think are important you want your kids to know that 00:07:08.586 --> 00:07:11.586 aren't necessarily in the standards. 00:07:11.586 --> 00:07:14.226 And I said we weren't gonna go into this, so we're not going 00:07:14.226 --> 00:07:16.626 to, so we're gonna move on, but. 00:07:16.911 --> 00:07:21.261 But the next thing is, is developing this curriculum, what it is that 00:07:21.261 --> 00:07:26.001 you're going to teach at your local level, and how important that is. 00:07:27.141 --> 00:07:35.241 So, talk about why that matters and how local should we get school department, 00:07:35.541 --> 00:07:37.551 or should it be limited to the district? 00:07:38.301 --> 00:07:39.081 do you manage that? 00:07:40.476 --> 00:07:42.006 Emily Makelky: we suggest. 00:07:42.996 --> 00:07:46.656 That local means school district, so district wide. 00:07:47.646 --> 00:07:52.686 and really the, reason that we say that is because very often we have kids transfer 00:07:52.686 --> 00:07:56.556 from one school within a district to a different school within a district. 00:07:56.676 --> 00:08:01.756 And so if you keep the curriculum, the, same, at least what it is you're teaching. 00:08:02.116 --> 00:08:07.541 And if you think about pacing being the same, and that really is a, 00:08:07.546 --> 00:08:12.926 discussion maybe for another time, but also a discussion at your kind of 00:08:13.016 --> 00:08:15.746 district-wide decisionmaking level. 00:08:16.076 --> 00:08:19.916 The reason behind that is so that teachers can collaborate and talk about 00:08:19.916 --> 00:08:25.726 what's working for them, and basically how can you be a better teacher, but 00:08:25.726 --> 00:08:29.896 also for those, kids that transfer from one school to another so that 00:08:29.896 --> 00:08:34.516 there's no time wasted, they are, able to, as much as possible, pick up 00:08:34.516 --> 00:08:36.826 where they left off and, continue on. 00:08:36.826 --> 00:08:42.106 So we would say that, your curriculum, we would recommend 00:08:42.226 --> 00:08:46.666 creating a a, guaranteed and viable curriculum at the district level. 00:08:48.226 --> 00:08:51.016 Jethro D. Jones: So having that at the district level, why? 00:08:51.106 --> 00:08:52.371 Why do we bring. 00:08:53.086 --> 00:08:54.286 staff in to do this? 00:08:55.636 --> 00:09:00.646 What's their, role in working on creating that curriculum for the district? 00:09:01.321 --> 00:09:04.621 Emily Makelky: there are a few things to consider when doing this. 00:09:04.891 --> 00:09:10.231 First, this is a big ask and for sure, all of your administrators listening 00:09:10.231 --> 00:09:13.921 right now are like, oh my gosh, I'm supposed to ask them to do another thing. 00:09:14.131 --> 00:09:15.121 They're gonna revolt. 00:09:15.521 --> 00:09:15.971 And, 00:09:16.061 --> 00:09:17.171 Jethro D. Jones: pause right there. 00:09:17.261 --> 00:09:17.621 Emily Makelky: okay. 00:09:17.711 --> 00:09:17.771 Jethro D. Jones: a 00:09:18.041 --> 00:09:18.641 Emily Makelky: Okay. 00:09:18.671 --> 00:09:21.281 Jethro D. Jones: I, so I'm doing a doctoral program right now, and 00:09:21.281 --> 00:09:24.761 last night in my class, one of the principals said, I feel like I can never 00:09:24.761 --> 00:09:27.851 ask my teachers to do anything more because they're always doing so much. 00:09:28.151 --> 00:09:30.551 And I gotta tell you, Emily, that is such a cop out. 00:09:30.891 --> 00:09:35.781 it drives me crazy because teachers want to be doing meaningful work. 00:09:36.141 --> 00:09:40.521 This developing the curriculum that you're gonna teach is meaningful work. 00:09:40.701 --> 00:09:41.991 You know what they don't want to do? 00:09:42.351 --> 00:09:47.051 They don't wanna do another baloney, doesn't matter, form that the district 00:09:47.051 --> 00:09:50.861 needs or something that doesn't impact what's going on in their 00:09:51.131 --> 00:09:51.431 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:09:52.391 --> 00:09:56.081 Jethro D. Jones: So it's not that teachers are too busy to do the things 00:09:56.081 --> 00:10:00.431 that they need to do, it's that we ask them to do stupid things like 00:10:00.491 --> 00:10:02.471 filling out a form for reimbursement, 00:10:02.686 --> 00:10:03.881 Emily Makelky: Yeah, sure. 00:10:03.881 --> 00:10:06.611 Jethro D. Jones: That is one of the things that is a little tedious thing. 00:10:06.641 --> 00:10:10.241 Doesn't take a ton of time, but it takes enough that it disrupts your flow and 00:10:10.241 --> 00:10:11.621 it's not what teachers are typically good 00:10:11.781 --> 00:10:12.001 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:10:12.431 --> 00:10:16.331 Jethro D. Jones: This, however, is the thing that they should be spending 00:10:16.331 --> 00:10:20.681 their time and energy on figuring out what and how to teach their kids 00:10:20.681 --> 00:10:21.732 that are right there in front of 'em. 00:10:22.211 --> 00:10:22.721 Thank you. 00:10:23.291 --> 00:10:24.191 I go 00:10:24.281 --> 00:10:28.241 Emily Makelky: That I could just see you like step up onto 00:10:28.241 --> 00:10:30.521 that soapbox and step back down. 00:10:30.701 --> 00:10:32.531 Jethro D. Jones: Yes, I do that a lot. 00:10:32.531 --> 00:10:32.921 Yes. 00:10:33.101 --> 00:10:33.551 Emily Makelky: I love it. 00:10:33.551 --> 00:10:34.001 That's okay. 00:10:34.421 --> 00:10:38.261 Yeah, and I would 100% agree what I would argue too. 00:10:39.131 --> 00:10:43.751 Is that developing your local curriculum is the first thing that you should do. 00:10:44.451 --> 00:10:48.541 or that, your, you should have your teachers do, figuring out, because 00:10:48.541 --> 00:10:51.106 it's the foundation of all of teaching and learning what you know, 00:10:51.211 --> 00:10:51.601 Jethro D. Jones: Okay. 00:10:52.111 --> 00:10:52.501 All right. 00:10:52.531 --> 00:10:53.071 I'm sorry. 00:10:53.071 --> 00:10:53.371 I gotta 00:10:53.371 --> 00:10:53.701 Emily Makelky: you're good. 00:10:53.731 --> 00:10:56.581 Jethro D. Jones: again because if you do this work. 00:10:56.956 --> 00:11:01.726 Then a new teacher coming on, how do you ask the new teacher to be 00:11:01.726 --> 00:11:03.466 involved in the curriculum process? 00:11:03.736 --> 00:11:06.616 If you've been doing this work for five years, let's say 00:11:06.646 --> 00:11:07.036 Emily Makelky: Yeah. 00:11:07.786 --> 00:11:08.836 Jethro D. Jones: what's, their role? 00:11:08.836 --> 00:11:14.626 Because what it sounds like you're saying is you need to start and then 00:11:14.626 --> 00:11:16.126 everybody does it and then we're done. 00:11:16.576 --> 00:11:18.526 And I don't think that's what you're actually saying. 00:11:18.796 --> 00:11:21.826 Emily Makelky: No, it's not what I'm, it's not what I'm saying, but it, what 00:11:21.826 --> 00:11:25.846 I am saying though is if you don't ha, if you have not already been through 00:11:25.846 --> 00:11:29.476 this process, if you haven't already identified what your curricular targets 00:11:29.476 --> 00:11:34.666 are, then pause maybe some of your other initiatives and focus on this one first. 00:11:35.566 --> 00:11:36.406 Then revisit it. 00:11:36.436 --> 00:11:38.296 Curriculum work never ends. 00:11:38.416 --> 00:11:43.516 And I am a huge proponent for if something isn't work, use your common sense. 00:11:43.636 --> 00:11:48.226 If something is no longer working, let's not just continue to do it because, 00:11:48.676 --> 00:11:52.126 we are just told this is what we have to do, but hey, let's revisit this and 00:11:52.126 --> 00:11:53.596 say, you know what, it's not working. 00:11:54.316 --> 00:11:55.426 Let's, fix it. 00:11:56.536 --> 00:12:00.646 So typically, and, really best case scenario is that, okay, we go through 00:12:00.646 --> 00:12:06.556 this process, say for math, and we, we, create their local curriculum 00:12:07.126 --> 00:12:09.526 and then, and, put it in draft form. 00:12:09.556 --> 00:12:13.776 We try it out for a year, two, we develop some assessments that align to it. 00:12:13.776 --> 00:12:14.106 Great. 00:12:14.106 --> 00:12:18.366 We've got this nice little package that now our teachers can use moving forward. 00:12:19.446 --> 00:12:19.956 Excuse me. 00:12:20.056 --> 00:12:22.576 But then we do need to revisit it and revisit it. 00:12:22.856 --> 00:12:28.986 As far as new teachers coming in, this is like a huge, help, I know 00:12:28.986 --> 00:12:33.066 when I started teaching and, I taught business and computers, there, there 00:12:33.066 --> 00:12:37.716 was nothing anywhere about what is it that I should be teaching. 00:12:37.716 --> 00:12:41.876 And I actually came from the business world and started teaching, after I had 00:12:42.296 --> 00:12:43.586 been, doing something else for a while. 00:12:43.586 --> 00:12:44.726 So when I came in. 00:12:44.981 --> 00:12:47.981 I'm looking around my classroom like, okay, so what is it 00:12:47.981 --> 00:12:49.001 that I should be teaching? 00:12:49.871 --> 00:12:52.811 and I went down to my principal's office and he said, I don't know. 00:12:52.811 --> 00:12:53.591 You're the professional. 00:12:53.591 --> 00:12:54.791 Teach what you think is right. 00:12:55.541 --> 00:12:56.591 And I remember, 00:12:57.131 --> 00:12:58.011 Jethro D. Jones: That's huge, 00:12:58.181 --> 00:12:59.111 Emily Makelky: oh my gosh. 00:12:59.466 --> 00:13:01.806 Jethro D. Jones: being told, you're the professional, you decide what to teach. 00:13:02.496 --> 00:13:04.146 that is not what most teachers hear. 00:13:04.146 --> 00:13:05.226 Most teachers hear. 00:13:05.226 --> 00:13:07.536 This is what you have to teach, this is how you have to teach it. 00:13:07.626 --> 00:13:09.426 And it is in incre. 00:13:10.626 --> 00:13:14.926 that's really the case, just have, just buy an AI bot to do it because. 00:13:15.736 --> 00:13:17.326 What's the point of having a human 00:13:17.326 --> 00:13:17.686 there? 00:13:18.586 --> 00:13:19.966 I, and I'm not kidding either. 00:13:20.266 --> 00:13:24.766 If, we know exactly what to teach and how to teach, just have the, AI do it. 00:13:24.766 --> 00:13:25.216 Emily Makelky: Sure. 00:13:25.246 --> 00:13:25.756 Jethro D. Jones: sorry, I keep 00:13:26.086 --> 00:13:27.196 Emily Makelky: No, you're good. 00:13:27.286 --> 00:13:27.466 Jethro D. Jones: to your 00:13:27.886 --> 00:13:28.636 Emily Makelky: I did, 00:13:28.826 --> 00:13:29.186 Jethro D. Jones: on. 00:13:29.186 --> 00:13:32.386 Emily Makelky: what was very scary for me, was a couple of things. 00:13:32.386 --> 00:13:34.426 I was not a teacher at that time. 00:13:34.486 --> 00:13:41.181 I was just beginning my degree and, so I. When he said that, I was terrified. 00:13:41.451 --> 00:13:43.641 I was like, oh, shoot, I don't, know. 00:13:43.911 --> 00:13:48.261 And in that same conversation, when I applied to become a teacher, I applied 00:13:48.261 --> 00:13:50.421 for the computer applications position. 00:13:50.811 --> 00:13:54.411 But as I was talking to him, two weeks before the start of school, I 00:13:54.411 --> 00:13:58.641 also found out that I was gonna be teaching Intro to Business, multimedia, 00:13:58.641 --> 00:14:00.171 advanced Multimedia Accounting. 00:14:00.171 --> 00:14:00.861 In your book. 00:14:01.806 --> 00:14:02.466 All things. 00:14:02.616 --> 00:14:07.806 Yeah, I was like, okay, so, I don't know what I'm supposed, I didn't even 00:14:07.806 --> 00:14:11.976 know what the word multimedia meant, let alone teach it, and advanced multimedia. 00:14:13.506 --> 00:14:18.426 So, bringing it back to my point about if you have this curriculum that is 00:14:18.426 --> 00:14:22.296 created, it is ready to go, and you have assessments that are aligned to them. 00:14:22.391 --> 00:14:25.691 You have a new teacher that comes in and you do, a bit of training with them 00:14:25.691 --> 00:14:27.221 on this is how you read the curriculum. 00:14:27.221 --> 00:14:30.641 This is what it means, this is how you use it to develop your lesson plans. 00:14:31.141 --> 00:14:35.851 Then they at least ha at least know what is it I'm supposed to be teaching? 00:14:36.221 --> 00:14:40.781 And now they can use kind of data points, what worked, what didn't work. 00:14:41.511 --> 00:14:44.241 And it, and in my case, I was the only teacher in the district. 00:14:44.241 --> 00:14:46.641 It was a very small school district, so I was the only one 00:14:46.641 --> 00:14:48.201 that even taught these things. 00:14:48.451 --> 00:14:52.081 But when you have, multiple teachers, they can talk about what's working, 00:14:52.081 --> 00:14:55.811 what isn't working, and really just go back to that whole PLC, idea 00:14:56.351 --> 00:14:58.091 and just focus on getting better. 00:14:58.766 --> 00:14:59.156 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:14:59.906 --> 00:15:02.816 the idea of curriculum being. 00:15:03.506 --> 00:15:05.336 Constantly evaluated 00:15:05.501 --> 00:15:05.861 Emily Makelky: Yeah. 00:15:06.686 --> 00:15:07.406 Jethro D. Jones: and checked. 00:15:08.216 --> 00:15:11.606 A, perfectly appropriate thing for a new teacher who's never taught it 00:15:11.606 --> 00:15:16.496 before to do, is to come in and say, here's where it doesn't make sense, 00:15:16.731 --> 00:15:17.171 Emily Makelky: Sure. 00:15:17.366 --> 00:15:18.986 Jethro D. Jones: and to give them a role. 00:15:19.286 --> 00:15:24.236 As a newbie with fresh eyes who doesn't hasn't been there for 20 years and 00:15:24.476 --> 00:15:27.776 doesn't know all the ins and outs, that's a great opportunity to listen 00:15:27.776 --> 00:15:31.046 to them see what they have to say. 00:15:31.226 --> 00:15:35.126 Liz Wiseman wrote a book called Rookie Smarts, where she talks about how 00:15:35.126 --> 00:15:39.986 powerful it is for someone to be a rookie, which means that you're not, not bound 00:15:39.986 --> 00:15:44.786 by the things that, that already are happening there because you don't know. 00:15:46.166 --> 00:15:50.036 I was talking to someone yesterday who was in the business world 00:15:50.036 --> 00:15:54.506 and he became a writer and let me see if I just took his this note. 00:15:55.406 --> 00:15:59.216 He said it's often better to come from an outsider's perspective 00:15:59.921 --> 00:16:01.811 because you don't fall into the. 00:16:02.551 --> 00:16:07.351 Assumptions and all the things that are built into that already. 00:16:07.411 --> 00:16:12.811 And you can be critical without being derogatory or dismissive, 00:16:13.111 --> 00:16:15.541 but you're critical because you're new and you don't understand it. 00:16:15.541 --> 00:16:18.931 And that's a great opportunity for new teachers to be involved in the curriculum 00:16:18.931 --> 00:16:21.481 design process, the day they start. 00:16:22.211 --> 00:16:22.966 Emily Makelky: I agree with that. 00:16:22.966 --> 00:16:24.916 I do wanna push back just a little. 00:16:25.231 --> 00:16:25.921 Jethro D. Jones: Oh, good. 00:16:25.951 --> 00:16:26.221 Le 00:16:26.296 --> 00:16:26.656 Emily Makelky: Yeah. 00:16:26.761 --> 00:16:26.851 Jethro D. Jones: it. 00:16:26.911 --> 00:16:27.571 Bring it on, 00:16:27.646 --> 00:16:28.516 Emily Makelky: Bring it on. 00:16:28.776 --> 00:16:29.256 No. 00:16:29.256 --> 00:16:31.446 Really what I wanna push back on is. 00:16:32.886 --> 00:16:37.356 there, at least in our curriculum development process, we spent about 00:16:37.356 --> 00:16:42.366 eight days with this committee of teachers, kindergarten, pre-K if you 00:16:42.366 --> 00:16:44.586 have it through, through 12th grade. 00:16:44.766 --> 00:16:48.546 Talking about the vertical alignment piece, what is everybody, what is 00:16:48.546 --> 00:16:50.166 their true focus of what's going on? 00:16:50.861 --> 00:16:54.221 And a lot of times when you have a new teacher come in, and I don't 00:16:54.221 --> 00:16:57.731 necessarily mean like a brand new teacher, straight outta school, but 00:16:57.731 --> 00:17:01.211 a teacher maybe from another school district that taught something different 00:17:01.211 --> 00:17:05.881 or taught something, and is just comfortable in what they're used to. 00:17:06.451 --> 00:17:10.441 I do wanna caution you not to just say, yep, you can go ahead and change 00:17:10.441 --> 00:17:14.311 that because it's what you're used to, but instead, let's talk about. 00:17:14.546 --> 00:17:17.546 At, even if you have to pull that committee back in and say, Hey, 00:17:17.726 --> 00:17:21.386 these are the conversations that we had and this is why we, wrote it and 00:17:21.386 --> 00:17:22.856 put it together the way that it is. 00:17:23.706 --> 00:17:26.946 So, I'm not saying no to what you said by any means because I think 00:17:26.946 --> 00:17:28.746 there's so much validity in that. 00:17:29.076 --> 00:17:34.656 But also there is validity to that whole process of having the full K 00:17:34.656 --> 00:17:40.836 12 team together, talking through who owns what, if that makes sense. 00:17:41.651 --> 00:17:42.101 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:17:42.221 --> 00:17:44.621 I appreciate that because what I was thinking was a brand 00:17:44.621 --> 00:17:45.581 new OUTTA college teacher. 00:17:46.081 --> 00:17:46.541 Emily Makelky: Sure. 00:17:46.691 --> 00:17:47.381 Jethro D. Jones: in the classroom. 00:17:47.441 --> 00:17:48.011 That's what I was 00:17:48.131 --> 00:17:48.671 Emily Makelky: Gotcha. 00:17:48.701 --> 00:17:48.851 Okay. 00:17:49.661 --> 00:17:52.121 Jethro D. Jones: because there is a difference between someone coming in with 00:17:52.121 --> 00:17:54.791 10 years experience new to a district. 00:17:55.481 --> 00:18:00.101 and here's the other thing, in education, we act like nobody 00:18:00.101 --> 00:18:01.151 ever leaves and nobody ever 00:18:01.516 --> 00:18:02.051 Emily Makelky: All right. 00:18:02.381 --> 00:18:05.831 Jethro D. Jones: is it's rare to not have someone new in your building 00:18:06.101 --> 00:18:07.721 at a school level every single 00:18:07.721 --> 00:18:08.111 year. 00:18:08.501 --> 00:18:11.111 And so change is actually constant. 00:18:11.381 --> 00:18:13.811 And when I was principal of a school in. 00:18:14.096 --> 00:18:14.876 Fairbanks. 00:18:14.936 --> 00:18:20.756 We had, it was a seven, eight middle school, and a third of our stu or half 00:18:20.756 --> 00:18:23.156 of our students were military affiliated. 00:18:23.456 --> 00:18:26.486 So every year, a third of them moved 00:18:26.846 --> 00:18:27.446 Emily Makelky: Sure. 00:18:27.776 --> 00:18:28.616 Jethro D. Jones: knew moved in. 00:18:28.916 --> 00:18:33.566 So every year we had about two thirds of our student body that 00:18:33.566 --> 00:18:35.036 was brand new to our school. 00:18:35.531 --> 00:18:35.951 Emily Makelky: Wow. 00:18:36.131 --> 00:18:36.581 Jethro D. Jones: that. 00:18:36.791 --> 00:18:37.931 We had new teachers. 00:18:37.931 --> 00:18:41.291 We had, teachers who were military associated, who left also. 00:18:42.251 --> 00:18:47.231 And what I loved about that was that we didn't have to hold onto these old 00:18:47.231 --> 00:18:52.451 things because a third of the kids might actually remember that was going on. 00:18:52.601 --> 00:18:53.081 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:18:53.141 --> 00:18:56.201 Jethro D. Jones: And so it was really easy to say, oh. 00:18:57.431 --> 00:18:59.771 I got on one of my counselors about this one time. 00:18:59.771 --> 00:19:03.611 She said, she was like, we used to do it like this, and now we do it like this. 00:19:03.611 --> 00:19:05.081 And I was like, why would you even say that? 00:19:05.501 --> 00:19:08.381 You don't need to say, we used to do it this way, because it's not a change for 00:19:08.381 --> 00:19:10.151 them because everything is new to them. 00:19:10.156 --> 00:19:10.526 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:19:10.691 --> 00:19:12.611 Jethro D. Jones: just explain it how it works. 00:19:13.466 --> 00:19:14.606 Right now, and it 00:19:14.726 --> 00:19:14.816 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:19:14.876 --> 00:19:17.846 Jethro D. Jones: matter how it used to work, we can change things every 00:19:17.846 --> 00:19:20.876 year very easily because of this unique situation that we're in. 00:19:21.686 --> 00:19:26.636 back to my original point, we're always changing and so we need to have plans for 00:19:26.636 --> 00:19:31.586 when we do change and when somebody leaves and somebody comes in away to keep the 00:19:31.586 --> 00:19:33.836 continuity that we think is important. 00:19:34.316 --> 00:19:38.996 There when teachers change, leadership changes, students change, all those 00:19:38.996 --> 00:19:42.866 things change, and we need to have some way to make sure that the things we 00:19:42.866 --> 00:19:44.846 think are important are still continuing. 00:19:44.876 --> 00:19:46.136 Even with those changes. 00:19:46.556 --> 00:19:46.946 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:19:46.946 --> 00:19:47.786 Absolutely. 00:19:48.056 --> 00:19:48.806 Absolutely. 00:19:49.001 --> 00:19:55.686 And thinking from the, perhaps principle perspective on, on this, 00:19:56.976 --> 00:20:02.731 I really think it's important to, I. make sure that the culture, or 00:20:02.731 --> 00:20:05.431 maybe it's the climate, I can Yeah. 00:20:05.521 --> 00:20:07.561 Get those two mixed up a little bit. 00:20:07.831 --> 00:20:08.251 Jethro D. Jones: all right. 00:20:08.671 --> 00:20:09.871 we'll call it culture, 00:20:10.456 --> 00:20:10.746 Emily Makelky: okay. 00:20:11.041 --> 00:20:11.426 Jethro D. Jones: what you're 00:20:11.461 --> 00:20:12.031 Emily Makelky: Okay. 00:20:12.226 --> 00:20:12.426 Jethro D. Jones: ahead. 00:20:12.571 --> 00:20:14.971 Emily Makelky: basically that it's okay to, mess up. 00:20:15.151 --> 00:20:16.831 It's okay to try something out. 00:20:17.011 --> 00:20:19.201 You are not expected to be. 00:20:20.101 --> 00:20:22.531 I don't know the authority in your content. 00:20:22.531 --> 00:20:26.071 And I'm, now I'm speaking from the high school perspective because I find 00:20:26.071 --> 00:20:30.991 that at the elementary, teachers are very comfortable just trying things, 00:20:30.991 --> 00:20:35.791 collaborating, messing up like that is very normal, but at the high school level, 00:20:35.791 --> 00:20:41.011 it doesn't tend to be, I, feel like high school teachers tend to be very defensive 00:20:41.881 --> 00:20:44.821 and very resistant to, to change. 00:20:45.131 --> 00:20:47.021 And so making sure that. 00:20:47.576 --> 00:20:52.886 That they know they're, not gonna be in trouble because they screwed up. 00:20:53.196 --> 00:20:55.566 Or because they wanted to try it and it didn't work. 00:20:56.046 --> 00:20:56.586 I don't know. 00:20:56.751 --> 00:20:57.201 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:20:58.146 --> 00:20:58.536 Emily Makelky: yeah. 00:20:58.596 --> 00:20:59.136 I don't know 00:20:59.331 --> 00:20:59.781 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:21:00.711 --> 00:21:03.381 one, one of the issues with that is that high school 00:21:03.716 --> 00:21:05.456 and middle school teachers to an extent also. 00:21:06.516 --> 00:21:09.816 focused on the content area that they're teaching because that's 00:21:09.816 --> 00:21:10.836 what they spend the most time 00:21:11.166 --> 00:21:11.376 Emily Makelky: yep, 00:21:11.916 --> 00:21:16.056 Jethro D. Jones: They, have kids cycle through their classroom 45, 55, 90 minutes 00:21:16.056 --> 00:21:20.886 a day, and, but they are focusing on their content all the time and that, that is one 00:21:20.886 --> 00:21:23.076 of the challenges that we face is that. 00:21:24.066 --> 00:21:28.476 they put more emphasis on the content than they do on the students. 00:21:28.506 --> 00:21:30.546 And they need to remember that they're teaching students, 00:21:30.546 --> 00:21:31.896 they're not teaching content. 00:21:33.006 --> 00:21:38.496 that is a, difficult thing to, to adjust your perspective on, especially when 00:21:38.676 --> 00:21:42.606 you've been in this system for your whole career of this is what it's like. 00:21:42.606 --> 00:21:45.426 I've said this many times on the podcast, so people who listen 00:21:45.486 --> 00:21:49.726 regularly, this is just one of my constant refrains, in Russian. 00:21:49.816 --> 00:21:52.336 The way that you say that you are a teacher. 00:21:52.831 --> 00:21:57.421 It is impossible to say, I teach math, or I teach English, or I teach first grade. 00:21:57.871 --> 00:22:03.601 You say, I teach students to that math, and basically the way that it 00:22:03.601 --> 00:22:08.311 translates is I take students to the content area and that is a much different 00:22:08.311 --> 00:22:10.291 approach than how we talk about. 00:22:10.786 --> 00:22:15.106 Teaching in the United States, we teach English to students, and 00:22:15.106 --> 00:22:18.496 the reality is that really you are taking those students to the content. 00:22:18.496 --> 00:22:21.376 And if you think about it like that, it changes your perspective and 00:22:21.376 --> 00:22:22.786 makes you think about it differently. 00:22:22.936 --> 00:22:26.176 And that's one of the powerful things that, that I, when I learned Russian, 00:22:26.176 --> 00:22:28.186 I was like, wow, this is deep. 00:22:28.216 --> 00:22:32.686 And there's real depth to this understanding of what it means to teach 00:22:33.166 --> 00:22:37.006 that you're not teaching a content, you're teaching students, and the 00:22:37.006 --> 00:22:38.866 focus should be on those students. 00:22:39.631 --> 00:22:43.711 But it's important to know what you're doing with this content, but it's always 00:22:43.711 --> 00:22:45.601 gotta be secondary to the students. 00:22:45.811 --> 00:22:48.421 And I know not everybody agrees with me on that, but that is a, 00:22:48.421 --> 00:22:49.981 hard line in the sand that I draw. 00:22:50.441 --> 00:22:51.881 Emily Makelky: I do agree with you on that. 00:22:51.881 --> 00:22:56.331 And, part of the work that we do, is what we help school districts 00:22:56.331 --> 00:22:59.151 develop a curriculum coordinating council is what we call it. 00:22:59.151 --> 00:23:02.391 But it's, this council that oversees all of teaching and learning. 00:23:02.751 --> 00:23:05.511 Very similar to a guiding coalition within PLCs. 00:23:05.816 --> 00:23:08.606 Except ours, would be district, it would be district wide 00:23:08.756 --> 00:23:10.406 and not just school based. 00:23:11.156 --> 00:23:15.076 but one of the conversations that I always had, as a consultant with 00:23:15.076 --> 00:23:19.466 this group is really just, talking about, oh gosh, what is it Maslow's? 00:23:20.391 --> 00:23:20.681 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:23:20.831 --> 00:23:20.951 Emily Makelky: Y 00:23:21.241 --> 00:23:21.601 Jethro D. Jones: hierarchy of 00:23:21.821 --> 00:23:22.391 Emily Makelky: Thank you. 00:23:22.391 --> 00:23:22.871 Yes. 00:23:23.471 --> 00:23:26.351 So, really focusing on that with your students. 00:23:26.351 --> 00:23:29.351 If they aren't getting food at ho, if they're hungry all the 00:23:29.351 --> 00:23:30.491 time, they're not gonna learn. 00:23:30.671 --> 00:23:30.941 Okay. 00:23:30.941 --> 00:23:34.241 It doesn't matter what, you're trying to teach 'em, they're not gonna learn. 00:23:35.391 --> 00:23:39.051 And building relationships, I know that was my husband's big thing. 00:23:39.271 --> 00:23:41.401 Making sure to build relationships with those students. 00:23:41.431 --> 00:23:45.571 If your student does not feel comfortable and safe, or feel like they have a 00:23:45.571 --> 00:23:46.951 relationship with their teachers. 00:23:47.356 --> 00:23:48.166 They're not gonna learn. 00:23:49.486 --> 00:23:50.476 so yes. 00:23:50.806 --> 00:23:54.196 we focus on the curriculum piece and what is it that you're supposed to be 00:23:54.196 --> 00:23:58.846 teaching, but you can't even really get to that until you make sure that you've 00:23:58.846 --> 00:24:04.436 got those other foundational pieces set up, and really functioning well. 00:24:05.186 --> 00:24:05.606 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:24:06.086 --> 00:24:06.866 absolutely. 00:24:07.106 --> 00:24:10.166 So let's talk a little bit about the principal's role 00:24:10.391 --> 00:24:10.681 Emily Makelky: Yeah, 00:24:11.156 --> 00:24:11.696 Jethro D. Jones: in doing 00:24:11.936 --> 00:24:12.476 Emily Makelky: sure. 00:24:13.496 --> 00:24:17.156 Jethro D. Jones: we've talked a lot about district-wide stuff, but the, principal 00:24:17.426 --> 00:24:20.666 really should be, a lot of people say the instructional leader, you're 00:24:20.726 --> 00:24:22.316 probably gonna say the curriculum leader. 00:24:22.556 --> 00:24:24.926 what does that mean for the role of the principal? 00:24:25.496 --> 00:24:29.156 Emily Makelky: I would say that all of this work lives or dies 00:24:29.216 --> 00:24:32.066 with the principle so often. 00:24:32.891 --> 00:24:37.661 We'll be working with a committee that includes teachers from, various 00:24:37.691 --> 00:24:41.851 schools within the, district, various, grade levels within the district. 00:24:41.881 --> 00:24:45.031 And they'll raise their hand and say, Hey, this is awesome work. 00:24:45.031 --> 00:24:49.591 I love what we put together, but how are teachers gonna 00:24:49.591 --> 00:24:51.151 be held accountable to this? 00:24:51.541 --> 00:24:57.151 Because if principals don't truly understand this work, then they're not 00:24:57.151 --> 00:25:01.681 going to make sure that the expectation and hold their teachers accountable. 00:25:01.981 --> 00:25:02.761 To teach again. 00:25:03.091 --> 00:25:06.451 So if that's the case, then it dies. 00:25:07.111 --> 00:25:08.641 But, but if. 00:25:09.556 --> 00:25:15.186 As a principal, if you can participate in, the, process, I 00:25:15.186 --> 00:25:17.826 think that is, is just enormous. 00:25:18.966 --> 00:25:23.856 and really, I don't mean come to the meetings and sit in the back of the 00:25:23.856 --> 00:25:28.506 conference room and still be on your email checking your phone texting like that 00:25:28.506 --> 00:25:31.356 really, it almost defeats the purpose. 00:25:31.836 --> 00:25:33.666 it, would almost be better if you weren't there. 00:25:34.581 --> 00:25:37.581 Because then teachers can see that you really don't care about it. 00:25:38.121 --> 00:25:44.061 So if you are able to, and I know how busy principals are, 00:25:44.571 --> 00:25:46.041 Jethro D. Jones: but it's still a cop out if you say you're too 00:25:46.041 --> 00:25:47.991 busy what you focus on. 00:25:48.076 --> 00:25:48.196 Emily Makelky: I. 00:25:48.981 --> 00:25:51.711 Jethro D. Jones: that, that excuse doesn't fly to anybody listening to this show. 00:25:53.976 --> 00:25:57.246 Emily Makelky: So if you can block off on your calendar, the 00:25:57.246 --> 00:25:58.866 curriculum development dates. 00:25:59.886 --> 00:26:03.356 And, I would also say, and actually this came from my father-in-law who I think 00:26:03.356 --> 00:26:05.606 has also been on your podcast, Jeff 00:26:06.656 --> 00:26:08.066 And he suggested. 00:26:08.636 --> 00:26:10.076 Select a content area. 00:26:10.076 --> 00:26:13.046 So if you were a social studies teacher, if that's where you feel 00:26:13.046 --> 00:26:18.206 more, most comfortable, then sit on the social studies subject area 00:26:18.206 --> 00:26:22.076 committee and participate as a teacher. 00:26:22.076 --> 00:26:26.456 Would as a full committee member participate in the process in developing 00:26:26.456 --> 00:26:30.386 this so that when you go back to your, school and to your teachers, you can 00:26:30.386 --> 00:26:31.556 say, this is the work that we did. 00:26:31.676 --> 00:26:32.786 This is how we did it. 00:26:32.816 --> 00:26:35.846 This is why, which is the biggest piece you've really gotta. 00:26:36.221 --> 00:26:39.231 Gotta, hammer in your why, do we do it? 00:26:39.531 --> 00:26:43.456 And then why is it so important to hold your teachers accountable? 00:26:44.856 --> 00:26:45.276 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:26:45.366 --> 00:26:45.636 Yeah. 00:26:45.636 --> 00:26:46.326 This is good. 00:26:47.196 --> 00:26:49.206 one of the things that you said. 00:26:50.681 --> 00:26:55.961 disagrees with the point you just made, is the, teachers. 00:26:56.231 --> 00:27:00.221 The teachers are the professionals, and yet the principal needs 00:27:00.221 --> 00:27:01.781 to be at the meetings. 00:27:02.711 --> 00:27:07.151 And, this is an area where, where would diverge a little bit and I 00:27:07.151 --> 00:27:10.721 would say, it's essential for the principal to know what's going on. 00:27:11.006 --> 00:27:14.756 But I wouldn't say that the principal has to be at those meetings necessarily, 00:27:14.966 --> 00:27:17.216 but I'm open to discussing this. 00:27:17.246 --> 00:27:19.646 And so how do you balance that? 00:27:20.306 --> 00:27:22.976 teachers are professionals and should be able to make these decisions 00:27:23.036 --> 00:27:29.036 with the principal needs to be there and engaged in it, like really? 00:27:30.026 --> 00:27:32.816 The principal, in my opinion, should probably take a step back 00:27:32.846 --> 00:27:34.076 and say, you're the professionals. 00:27:34.076 --> 00:27:37.886 I'm gonna support you and I don't have to be at those meetings 00:27:37.886 --> 00:27:40.316 because you know how to do this. 00:27:40.976 --> 00:27:42.866 how do you reconcile that? 00:27:42.866 --> 00:27:43.526 What are your thoughts 00:27:43.726 --> 00:27:47.456 Emily Makelky: Yeah, I, suppose that, that, what I mean is that 00:27:47.456 --> 00:27:52.516 the principal should participate, but not in, an evaluative way. 00:27:52.876 --> 00:28:00.556 So the principal should not be there saying, or, judging their teachers. 00:28:01.421 --> 00:28:04.001 Instead they should be their peer. 00:28:04.401 --> 00:28:10.311 And discussing and working through why is this happening Now, if there are 00:28:10.311 --> 00:28:16.071 principals that are going to go and judge their teachers and say, Nope, 00:28:16.401 --> 00:28:20.541 you, need to be teaching this, then perhaps they should not be sitting 00:28:20.541 --> 00:28:21.861 on those subject area committees. 00:28:22.191 --> 00:28:25.131 But if you're able, as a principal, if you're able to put yourself 00:28:25.131 --> 00:28:26.511 back into your teacher role. 00:28:27.291 --> 00:28:28.791 And discuss and talk through. 00:28:28.971 --> 00:28:30.321 'cause that's the point of this work. 00:28:30.451 --> 00:28:33.661 When we work with school districts, we, say it'll take eight days, 00:28:33.971 --> 00:28:36.881 throughout the school year or perhaps, over the summer or something. 00:28:37.091 --> 00:28:41.401 But, there's a lot of discussions that happen about what is it, 00:28:41.401 --> 00:28:42.751 what skills, what content. 00:28:43.016 --> 00:28:44.276 That we should be teaching. 00:28:44.276 --> 00:28:49.316 And so I think that if a principal comes in and is able to just participate, in 00:28:49.316 --> 00:28:54.056 those conversations to determine that, I think it's healthy and I think it's okay. 00:28:54.346 --> 00:28:57.556 And I think it will help improve that, piece. 00:28:58.251 --> 00:29:01.371 Moving forward within your school district, and they can explain, 00:29:02.131 --> 00:29:05.351 to, teachers that did not sit on those committees, what happened, 00:29:05.411 --> 00:29:09.341 why is it not, why is this change not a scary change, perhaps? 00:29:09.731 --> 00:29:11.411 How can we embrace this? 00:29:11.471 --> 00:29:14.231 Yeah, and I think I'm getting ahead of myself, but, thinking about, the 00:29:14.231 --> 00:29:16.011 principle as a, an instructional. 00:29:16.416 --> 00:29:20.536 Leader, being able to pro provide feedback to, your teachers when you do 00:29:20.536 --> 00:29:25.646 a walkthrough and you fully understand curriculum and how it was developed, what 00:29:25.646 --> 00:29:29.156 the learning tar targets are, and then you do a walkthrough with your teachers 00:29:29.156 --> 00:29:34.506 and you can say, Hey, I. I, I saw by your pacing guide, and your curriculum, 00:29:34.506 --> 00:29:35.586 that this is the learning target. 00:29:35.586 --> 00:29:39.096 You were supposed to be teaching or you were expecting to teach. 00:29:39.296 --> 00:29:40.886 I didn't see any evidence of it. 00:29:41.366 --> 00:29:43.106 visually it's nowhere, whatever. 00:29:43.766 --> 00:29:47.356 and I couldn't hear the alignment, of your instructional strategies 00:29:47.356 --> 00:29:49.156 to the curricular target. 00:29:49.366 --> 00:29:51.946 you can have kind of some meaningful conversations and I'm 00:29:51.946 --> 00:29:53.236 pretty sure that was a tangent. 00:29:53.326 --> 00:29:54.046 I apologize. 00:29:54.046 --> 00:29:54.916 Let's write it back in. 00:29:54.976 --> 00:29:55.306 Jethro D. Jones: okay. 00:29:56.536 --> 00:29:57.316 It's all good. 00:29:58.036 --> 00:30:04.366 so to that piece about the instructional leader, I, I think is important also, 00:30:04.366 --> 00:30:10.186 but I think we misunderstand what that means and, and a lot of times we 00:30:10.186 --> 00:30:15.886 give the impression that the principle is the main expert and the one who. 00:30:16.186 --> 00:30:18.046 Who knows more than anybody else. 00:30:18.046 --> 00:30:25.926 And I don't think that is either necessary or wise, because principals are managing 00:30:25.926 --> 00:30:30.126 this big, huge system and they're, setting the vision, they're guiding 00:30:30.126 --> 00:30:33.516 it, and they're setting up the school for success and all this kind of stuff. 00:30:34.596 --> 00:30:37.146 for them to be the. 00:30:37.776 --> 00:30:43.956 The final answer on everybody's skill and proficiency at teaching is a little 00:30:43.956 --> 00:30:46.926 bit silly to be honest, because they. 00:30:47.841 --> 00:30:50.721 I don't believe that is their most essential role. 00:30:50.781 --> 00:30:54.231 I think those other things I described of designing the school, which I talk 00:30:54.231 --> 00:30:58.871 about in my books of you have a just a warm body who's just there in the school. 00:30:58.871 --> 00:31:02.981 You have a manager and that person just makes sure that things don't go wrong. 00:31:03.101 --> 00:31:06.641 And then you have a leader who like sets a vision and makes plans and does 00:31:06.641 --> 00:31:08.201 a good job as the instructional leader. 00:31:08.441 --> 00:31:11.531 But then you have a designer who actively designs and sets 00:31:11.531 --> 00:31:13.271 up the school for success. 00:31:13.736 --> 00:31:20.906 And if the designer is the one who's doing everything, it's not going to work. 00:31:21.716 --> 00:31:28.346 they, the idea of a one act or a one person play exist where that 00:31:28.346 --> 00:31:31.316 person is the director and the sole actor, and they play all the parts. 00:31:32.186 --> 00:31:37.076 does exist, it's a lot better when there's a director and a whole bunch 00:31:37.076 --> 00:31:40.626 of actors who are playing different roles and that's the thing that 00:31:40.626 --> 00:31:44.936 actually draws people to, movies and shows and events and things like that. 00:31:45.936 --> 00:31:49.356 the other analogy that we'd like to draw is with sports that. 00:31:50.246 --> 00:31:54.866 there's a coach and the coach is not out on the field playing and the coach can't 00:31:54.866 --> 00:31:57.356 and shouldn't be out on the field playing. 00:31:58.136 --> 00:32:04.376 And, a great coach right now is Andy Reed who played football in 00:32:04.376 --> 00:32:08.096 college, but then became a coach and didn't play in the NFL and yet. 00:32:08.666 --> 00:32:13.706 He's one of the most successful coaches out there, and so we have to understand 00:32:13.706 --> 00:32:18.236 that your role is different and you're not a teacher anymore, and you have 00:32:18.236 --> 00:32:22.316 to let those decisions be made and let other people do those things. 00:32:23.156 --> 00:32:26.906 And this is still an idea that I'm working through, but there's 00:32:26.906 --> 00:32:30.926 something there about your job is that much different from a teacher. 00:32:31.976 --> 00:32:35.556 You can't, still be doing the teacher things and giving feedback 00:32:35.556 --> 00:32:39.066 about curriculum alignment is one of those things, in my opinion, 00:32:39.336 --> 00:32:41.016 that principals need to let go of. 00:32:41.516 --> 00:32:46.106 And teachers need to hold themselves and each other more accountable than relying 00:32:46.106 --> 00:32:47.906 on the principal to be the one to do that. 00:32:48.266 --> 00:32:50.096 And this is the first time I'm saying this out loud. 00:32:50.096 --> 00:32:50.936 How does that jive with 00:32:51.471 --> 00:32:51.956 Emily Makelky: I think, 00:32:51.956 --> 00:32:52.166 Jethro D. Jones: poke 00:32:52.886 --> 00:32:54.686 Emily Makelky: no, I actually really love it. 00:32:54.886 --> 00:32:57.196 I'm putting, I'm gonna put my teacher hat back on. 00:32:57.196 --> 00:33:03.356 I remember, in my, I don't know, I don't know if it was like my interim evaluation 00:33:03.356 --> 00:33:06.786 or summative or something like that, but I remember, and this is going back 00:33:06.786 --> 00:33:11.826 15 years or so, but still, it, was a rubric situation where I was evaluated 00:33:11.826 --> 00:33:15.066 on, I don't know, 150 different things. 00:33:15.436 --> 00:33:17.596 And I was docked on. 00:33:18.041 --> 00:33:21.341 Something about my instruction, and I asked my principal, 00:33:21.341 --> 00:33:22.931 I said, okay, that's great. 00:33:22.961 --> 00:33:23.981 I'm happy to work on that. 00:33:23.981 --> 00:33:26.021 Can you gimme an example of what that might look like? 00:33:26.021 --> 00:33:29.321 And he said, no, I can't. 00:33:29.471 --> 00:33:31.026 And I was like, okay. 00:33:31.871 --> 00:33:34.361 And I don't blame him at all for that. 00:33:34.541 --> 00:33:38.291 But it is, it's difficult when you're being evaluated 00:33:39.026 --> 00:33:39.716 Jethro D. Jones: exactly. 00:33:39.941 --> 00:33:40.961 Emily Makelky: they don't. 00:33:42.161 --> 00:33:43.841 They can't, they can't go there. 00:33:44.171 --> 00:33:47.441 they, their brains can't, my principal couldn't go there 00:33:47.441 --> 00:33:48.791 and that is completely fine. 00:33:48.791 --> 00:33:50.741 I am not criticizing him one bit. 00:33:50.741 --> 00:33:55.821 It's more that evaluation piece where I was being evaluated, and I was frustrated. 00:33:56.031 --> 00:34:03.861 So I actually do really like that idea of, hey, let's figure out what our roles are. 00:34:04.956 --> 00:34:06.696 And we can let go of some of those things. 00:34:06.696 --> 00:34:08.046 I think that's completely fine. 00:34:08.316 --> 00:34:12.636 But I do, I, am gonna push back a little bit that I do strongly feel 00:34:12.636 --> 00:34:18.456 like the principal does need to fully understand what curriculum is and why 00:34:18.456 --> 00:34:23.286 it's the expectation, and then how to hold your teachers accountable and 00:34:23.286 --> 00:34:25.146 make sure that they are, using it. 00:34:25.456 --> 00:34:28.456 We just have a lot of school districts that we work with. 00:34:30.286 --> 00:34:31.936 Where, excuse me. 00:34:32.551 --> 00:34:35.911 When we roll out the new curriculum, there are teachers that say, 00:34:35.941 --> 00:34:37.231 yeah, I'm just not gonna do that. 00:34:37.651 --> 00:34:38.551 I'm just not doing that. 00:34:38.551 --> 00:34:42.631 And it's not because of it, it's not because they're good 00:34:42.631 --> 00:34:44.671 teachers and feel like it's wrong. 00:34:44.791 --> 00:34:46.291 It's because they don't wanna change. 00:34:46.966 --> 00:34:47.326 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:34:47.671 --> 00:34:53.281 Emily Makelky: and I think that's, that is perhaps a, I don't know if that's a rule 00:34:53.281 --> 00:34:55.701 of a principle, but, I don't think, yeah. 00:34:55.701 --> 00:34:56.001 Sorry. 00:34:56.421 --> 00:34:56.991 you go. 00:34:57.046 --> 00:34:59.116 Jethro D. Jones: That, that's exactly what I'm talking about. 00:34:59.116 --> 00:35:02.776 That is not a instructional leadership problem. 00:35:02.776 --> 00:35:09.391 I. is a culture problem and a designer of a school problem that if somebody is 00:35:09.391 --> 00:35:15.781 unwilling to change, that is the role of the principal to either get them outta 00:35:15.781 --> 00:35:20.371 the school or put them in a position where they don't have to change or 00:35:20.401 --> 00:35:25.201 do something make it so that they are aligned with the vision of the school. 00:35:25.531 --> 00:35:28.861 And if you're not, you really shouldn't be at that school. 00:35:29.146 --> 00:35:30.946 And that's just all there is to it. 00:35:31.396 --> 00:35:34.906 And so then, that brings up all these other questions that we're not gonna get 00:35:35.221 --> 00:35:35.511 Emily Makelky: Sure. 00:35:36.376 --> 00:35:38.476 Jethro D. Jones: a new principal comes in and they're gonna be there for three 00:35:38.476 --> 00:35:41.446 years and this teacher's been there for 20 and is gonna stay for another 10. 00:35:41.716 --> 00:35:46.006 Like those are things that districts really need to evaluate when they move 00:35:46.006 --> 00:35:50.806 people and when they hire people, and when they set principals up for failure or 00:35:50.806 --> 00:35:52.756 success and what those things look like. 00:35:52.756 --> 00:35:57.046 And the plan really should be like, this is your role. 00:35:57.436 --> 00:35:59.296 if we just need a warm body. 00:35:59.636 --> 00:36:02.876 Then the principal should not be making instructional leadership decisions 00:36:02.876 --> 00:36:05.576 because they're just there to pass the 00:36:05.976 --> 00:36:06.256 Emily Makelky: Sure. 00:36:06.356 --> 00:36:08.756 Jethro D. Jones: If they're being moved to that school because there was a problem 00:36:08.756 --> 00:36:12.866 at another school, but they can't fire 'em, for example, then that's on the 00:36:12.866 --> 00:36:16.466 district and they should not expect, and that principal should not expect 00:36:16.526 --> 00:36:20.456 to be an instructional leader at that school because, and that stuff happens. 00:36:20.486 --> 00:36:22.796 We like to talk about, pretend like it doesn't, but it sure 00:36:23.191 --> 00:36:23.676 Emily Makelky: Oh man. 00:36:24.196 --> 00:36:26.356 Jethro D. Jones: That, specific instance, somebody not being 00:36:26.356 --> 00:36:29.506 willing to change, that is not an instructional leadership problem. 00:36:29.776 --> 00:36:34.816 That is a vision, that is a culture that is a school designer problem that 00:36:34.936 --> 00:36:37.546 principals need to own and take on. 00:36:37.756 --> 00:36:39.736 But that has nothing to do with the curriculum. 00:36:40.066 --> 00:36:43.176 That is just hinge point That is just what's the word? 00:36:43.366 --> 00:36:44.086 Focal point. 00:36:44.086 --> 00:36:48.346 The thing that, that is causing the teacher to show their unwillingness 00:36:48.701 --> 00:36:48.991 Emily Makelky: Yeah. 00:36:49.996 --> 00:36:52.426 Jethro D. Jones: to buy into the vision of the district and the school 00:36:52.666 --> 00:36:52.726 Emily Makelky: Yeah. 00:36:53.236 --> 00:36:54.916 Jethro D. Jones: and that is what the real problem is. 00:36:55.156 --> 00:36:57.616 But that has nothing to do with curriculum or instruction. 00:36:58.486 --> 00:37:01.096 That just happens to be the spark that's sliding that bigger 00:37:01.396 --> 00:37:01.786 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:37:02.146 --> 00:37:02.776 I agree. 00:37:03.946 --> 00:37:04.996 Jethro D. Jones: this, is a good discussion. 00:37:05.086 --> 00:37:06.226 I'm glad we're having this. 00:37:07.696 --> 00:37:09.331 Emily Makelky: I wish listeners could see you right now. 00:37:09.431 --> 00:37:10.451 You're fired up. 00:37:11.131 --> 00:37:15.301 Jethro D. Jones: I am, I'm, I feel that I'm getting more fired up as time goes 00:37:15.301 --> 00:37:20.411 on because I've been doing this thing for 10 year, more than 10 years, we keep 00:37:20.411 --> 00:37:24.821 coming back to the same conversations and I can only imagine how someone 00:37:24.821 --> 00:37:27.911 like Todd Whitaker feels who's been doing this way longer than I have. 00:37:27.971 --> 00:37:32.021 And the same things keep coming up, but we gotta change the dynamic for 00:37:32.021 --> 00:37:34.601 things to really, to be different. 00:37:34.961 --> 00:37:35.861 And, I think. 00:37:36.176 --> 00:37:41.256 That being an instructional leader is great, but here's, the thing that I 00:37:41.256 --> 00:37:44.706 really want to get to, and I know we're not gonna have time to get into all 00:37:44.706 --> 00:37:52.026 this, but my approach to curriculum is much different than a lot of people's. 00:37:52.056 --> 00:37:58.716 And when we stopped focusing on saying, this is what we want the kids 00:37:58.716 --> 00:38:01.236 to learn, and we started focusing on. 00:38:01.611 --> 00:38:06.111 How do we make sure that kids are enrolled, which means they're choosing 00:38:06.111 --> 00:38:09.471 to be part of their learning and they're somewhat in control of their 00:38:09.471 --> 00:38:13.971 own learning that it's not all coming from the adults in the building. 00:38:14.841 --> 00:38:21.741 Our students just blew our expectations out of the water all across the board. 00:38:21.921 --> 00:38:28.761 The punk kids, the kids with disabilities, the gifted kids, every single kid more. 00:38:29.916 --> 00:38:33.906 we expected them to, as we changed that approach. 00:38:34.206 --> 00:38:40.056 So focus away from curriculum and focusing on actually engaging the kids 00:38:40.056 --> 00:38:44.646 in what they're doing, that flipped a switch and kids just blew up. 00:38:44.976 --> 00:38:48.546 Like their learning just went out of it just went crazy. 00:38:49.296 --> 00:38:54.426 so my fear is that we're starting in the wrong place with all this stuff. 00:38:54.936 --> 00:38:57.996 And I probably should have started the conversation with this, 00:39:01.146 --> 00:39:03.006 but next time we can talk 00:39:03.026 --> 00:39:03.956 Emily Makelky: Yeah, 00:39:04.446 --> 00:39:07.086 Jethro D. Jones: but that's really an issue that I see in 00:39:07.086 --> 00:39:09.006 our education system is that. 00:39:10.581 --> 00:39:14.691 When we, force it, which is what we do when we have scope and sequences 00:39:14.691 --> 00:39:18.771 and we have timelines of when kids should or when teachers should teach 00:39:18.771 --> 00:39:22.131 what and pacing and all that, we are saying, this is how and when. 00:39:22.491 --> 00:39:23.781 Kids, need to learn these things. 00:39:23.841 --> 00:39:29.931 And the reality is, that learning is such an individual thing and it is so personal 00:39:29.931 --> 00:39:36.651 to every single person that yes, you can make it happen this way, but it is. 00:39:37.491 --> 00:39:40.611 You talked about the bare minimum with the standards, right? 00:39:41.001 --> 00:39:45.471 This is really the bare minimum of instruction and, 00:39:45.471 --> 00:39:47.001 the focus is on instruction. 00:39:47.241 --> 00:39:50.811 The focus is not on learning, and there's a big difference between those two. 00:39:52.011 --> 00:39:53.661 I just touched the tip of the iceberg. 00:39:53.721 --> 00:39:54.171 What do you have to 00:39:54.226 --> 00:39:57.236 Emily Makelky: I was just gonna, I think I would just say is there 00:39:57.236 --> 00:40:01.676 a way to combine the two thoughts? 00:40:02.906 --> 00:40:05.486 I agree 100% that kids all learn. 00:40:07.616 --> 00:40:09.806 Differently at different times. 00:40:09.976 --> 00:40:16.636 And, I have a 4-year-old and a 6-year-old, and looking at their classmates, it's 00:40:16.636 --> 00:40:21.526 very clear that kids learn in different ways and at different times, and I 00:40:21.526 --> 00:40:26.836 really hate the idea of kids being penalized because they don't have it yet. 00:40:26.926 --> 00:40:28.516 They haven't gotten it yet. 00:40:28.666 --> 00:40:33.946 And so how do we, combine the two ideas? 00:40:34.516 --> 00:40:38.386 And think about, but what is it that they really do need to learn? 00:40:38.566 --> 00:40:42.106 And maybe it's not at the end of kindergarten, they must learn this, or the 00:40:42.106 --> 00:40:43.666 end of first grade they must learn this. 00:40:43.666 --> 00:40:49.006 But by the time they leave our schools, they must know these things if they're 00:40:49.006 --> 00:40:50.656 gonna be successful in the real world. 00:40:50.716 --> 00:40:56.706 I do really think that there are some skills, and, there's content that really. 00:40:58.371 --> 00:41:00.171 The majority of kids should know. 00:41:00.171 --> 00:41:04.651 And I don't think that's calculus, I don't think that's, those higher level things. 00:41:04.651 --> 00:41:10.021 But I do think that there are just things that our kids need to know to be good, 00:41:10.231 --> 00:41:12.771 good humans and effective, individuals. 00:41:12.861 --> 00:41:15.711 And so how do we make sure that they do get those things? 00:41:15.711 --> 00:41:19.751 How do we focus on those things in ways that allow for, their, 00:41:19.751 --> 00:41:21.011 own engagement and their own. 00:41:21.716 --> 00:41:25.186 Kind of processing, to, to, make sure that they're learning those. 00:41:25.406 --> 00:41:28.816 I think that those are conversations kind of district wide, to have 00:41:28.816 --> 00:41:30.586 or schoolwide or, whatever. 00:41:30.646 --> 00:41:32.806 But I, do love the idea. 00:41:32.806 --> 00:41:38.236 I agree wholeheartedly that, that education does need to, change. 00:41:38.566 --> 00:41:41.296 And I, do think that. 00:41:42.931 --> 00:41:43.411 I don't know. 00:41:43.411 --> 00:41:46.831 What we, what I've struggled with quite a bit is when we try to make 00:41:46.831 --> 00:41:48.991 that change, there's so much pushback. 00:41:49.801 --> 00:41:52.921 From all stake, from so many stakeholders, not all stakeholders, but 00:41:52.921 --> 00:41:57.031 from so many stakeholders that people suck back in and say, okay, never. 00:41:57.091 --> 00:41:57.781 Nevermind. 00:41:57.841 --> 00:41:58.951 Let's not rock the boat. 00:41:59.071 --> 00:42:00.691 Let's continue with what we are doing. 00:42:00.931 --> 00:42:04.891 When really, I feel like there's just a hump. 00:42:04.891 --> 00:42:09.271 And if you move past that and start seeing like, you did, when you start 00:42:09.271 --> 00:42:12.961 seeing success, then roll with that success and let's make it happen. 00:42:12.961 --> 00:42:17.731 But instead, I feel like a lot of times we get afraid and say, woo, nevermind. 00:42:18.136 --> 00:42:21.506 I'm worried about my job, for instance, I'm worried about, whatever else. 00:42:23.151 --> 00:42:25.971 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, it's, and it's, yeah. 00:42:25.971 --> 00:42:27.471 There's so much to unpack there. 00:42:27.521 --> 00:42:29.471 But I will say this. 00:42:29.471 --> 00:42:31.781 Once you get past the hump, you're absolutely right. 00:42:32.111 --> 00:42:32.801 Things change. 00:42:33.761 --> 00:42:36.851 Parents are like, my kid's never been this happy with school 00:42:36.876 --> 00:42:37.096 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:42:37.271 --> 00:42:39.641 Jethro D. Jones: and whatever you're doing, I want you to keep 00:42:39.676 --> 00:42:39.896 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:42:39.911 --> 00:42:40.121 Jethro D. Jones: it. 00:42:40.481 --> 00:42:47.441 That, that is powerful because that's real and that is something that parents feel. 00:42:47.501 --> 00:42:52.151 And when kids feel that way school, it affects other parts of their life also. 00:42:52.466 --> 00:42:58.346 And so they might not be as crabby as teenagers with their parents when they're 00:42:58.346 --> 00:43:02.906 having good days at school, but when they've got the thumb pushing down on 00:43:02.981 --> 00:43:03.201 Emily Makelky: Yep. 00:43:03.446 --> 00:43:04.766 Jethro D. Jones: and then they go to school and they got the 00:43:04.766 --> 00:43:09.266 thumb pushing down on 'em again, that's, really tough for them. 00:43:10.066 --> 00:43:10.426 alright. 00:43:10.456 --> 00:43:11.836 This was a good conversation. 00:43:11.866 --> 00:43:13.786 I think we're gonna need to talk again. 00:43:13.846 --> 00:43:15.226 We didn't even get to ai. 00:43:15.956 --> 00:43:18.536 We, didn't even get to so many things that we. 00:43:19.121 --> 00:43:20.141 Could talk about in the 00:43:20.441 --> 00:43:21.041 Emily Makelky: Sure. 00:43:21.861 --> 00:43:23.661 Jethro D. Jones: And you and I have been talking for years also, 00:43:24.271 --> 00:43:25.921 we should just continue this. 00:43:25.921 --> 00:43:30.331 The thing that's so crazy is, I, like I said, I've been doing this for so long 00:43:30.331 --> 00:43:33.421 and still there's so much left to talk 00:43:33.636 --> 00:43:33.926 Emily Makelky: Sure. 00:43:34.021 --> 00:43:36.691 Jethro D. Jones: there's so, many great conversations to have. 00:43:37.471 --> 00:43:39.961 I, encourage you to connect with Emily. 00:43:40.201 --> 00:43:42.571 She, as I mentioned, works for curriculum. 00:43:43.166 --> 00:43:48.806 Learn Leadership Institute, and you can find them@clweb.org. 00:43:48.926 --> 00:43:52.216 And, there's a link to that in the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org. 00:43:52.666 --> 00:43:55.066 And Emily's email address is on there also. 00:43:55.066 --> 00:43:59.836 Any, last question I always ask is, what is one thing that a 00:43:59.836 --> 00:44:03.676 principal can do this week to be a Transformative leader like you? 00:44:03.676 --> 00:44:04.036 Emily. 00:44:05.891 --> 00:44:09.671 Emily Makelky: I, I, guess I would say. 00:44:10.001 --> 00:44:13.091 Something they could do this week is starting to ask about, and we didn't 00:44:13.091 --> 00:44:18.401 even talk about this, but starting to ask about learning in, in measurability. 00:44:18.791 --> 00:44:24.491 Meaning instead of saying, okay, are your kids understanding what 00:44:24.491 --> 00:44:25.781 they're supposed to understand? 00:44:26.291 --> 00:44:27.761 Talk about it in, what is it? 00:44:27.821 --> 00:44:29.801 How did they show you that they understand it? 00:44:31.421 --> 00:44:32.111 If that makes sense. 00:44:32.111 --> 00:44:38.141 We didn't talk about that yet another time, but, that is a piece of, curriculum 00:44:38.141 --> 00:44:39.971 work, making sure that it's measurable. 00:44:39.971 --> 00:44:42.821 What does it look like when a kid understands something? 00:44:43.421 --> 00:44:44.351 Jethro D. Jones: Good stuff, man. 00:44:44.681 --> 00:44:45.461 You're leaving us with 00:44:45.731 --> 00:44:47.441 Emily Makelky: oh, cliffhanger. 00:44:48.101 --> 00:44:49.301 Jethro D. Jones: Wait, that's great. 00:44:49.331 --> 00:44:49.721 Okay. 00:44:49.721 --> 00:44:50.831 Emily, this was awesome. 00:44:50.831 --> 00:44:51.521 Thank you so much. 00:44:51.521 --> 00:44:52.091 I'm definitely gonna 00:44:52.121 --> 00:44:52.871 Emily Makelky: Thank you. 00:44:52.871 --> 00:44:53.621 Absolutely. 00:44:53.621 --> 00:44:54.101 I'd love to. 00:44:54.371 --> 00:44:57.851 Jethro D. Jones: we should probably just schedule it, once you, after the summer 00:44:57.851 --> 00:44:59.981 when you get all, settled in the new year. 00:45:00.011 --> 00:45:01.901 We can, we should do that again. 00:45:02.126 --> 00:45:02.366 Emily Makelky: you. 00:45:02.576 --> 00:45:03.356 That sounds great. 00:45:03.416 --> 00:45:04.436 Thank you for having me.