Jethro D. Jones: to Transformative Principal.
I am very excited to have on the program today, Emily Alki.
She is a former high school business computer education teacher, turned
curriculum geek, and she's the vice president of the Curriculum
Leadership Institute, which is a nonprofit organization that partners
with school districts to improve teaching and learning by developing
a local curriculum first, which.
If you know me, I love this idea and want you to also, check out episode
6 57 of Transformative Principle, which is called Using AI Layering to
create hyper localized curriculum.
I. Brent on that one, talked about what he's doing and it is amazing.
So you're gonna wanna listen to that one.
And this one, I'm sure we're gonna touch on some things.
That one just released, so Emily hasn't heard it yet.
And she, can't speak to it yet, but I'll bring in some things from that.
So we're gonna start with that.
And.
If you've heard this name Alki before, you know that I love the Alki family,
all of them, and I'm really excited.
Emily and I have been chatting for the past few years.
She is Eric Mackey's wife, and and.
didn't realize that this family is in education.
When I first met Eric so many years ago, and now each time I meet a new one,
I'm just like, Hey, you're awesome too.
So Emily, welcome to Transformative Principal.
I'm so glad to have you.
Emily Makelky: Thank you.
Thank You I'm, I'm obviously excited to talk about curriculum today.
But, when you used to have Eric on the podcast, for so long, I always kinda
wondered, are you gonna pull his wife in to talk about the emotional side
or being the spouse of a principal?
Because it's heavy.
It's heavy for sure.
Jethro D. Jones: it is.
And we, won't talk about that today.
I won't put you on the spot 'cause that was not the plan.
But, we should at some point, have some spouses on because,
spouses carry a big burden.
And my wife certainly has.
you have, lots of spouses have.
And I'm sure that would be an interesting little, discussion to have about how
to manage that from the other side.
Emily Makelky: It would be, I, I would assume that, all the principals would
just be like, I know I've heard it.
I know.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily Makelky: anyway.
Jethro D. Jones: that's good.
we're gonna talk about curriculum today,
Emily Makelky: Great.
Jethro D. Jones: so I wanna start by talking about the, the difference between,
what curriculum is, how you see it, and then let's talk about the difference
between curriculum and resources, and then we can get into some other things.
Emily Makelky: bet.
You bet.
I, think it's actually really simple, curriculum, I would say the definition
of curriculum is simply, what is it that.
We're teaching our kids, what is it that we value in our district,
and our kids need to learn.
And really it's just the what, there are, in teaching and learning, there's the
what, there's the why, there's the how.
There's the how do and pulling it back to our, the PLC questions,
it is the first PLC question.
What do we want kids to know and be able to do?
That essentially is the curriculum piece.
And thinking about kind of the, differences between
that and, and, resources.
I think that the two are confused very often.
Especially when you're talking to say elementary teachers.
Very often in elementary schools they talk about, we teach this
curriculum and they will name.
A resource or a program that they teach.
But truly what I would say is that the curriculum comes even
before you adopt that program and figure out within our district or
within our schools, what is it?
What skills, what content, what knowledge do we want our kids to
know and be able to do, and then find resources to support that.
Jethro D. Jones: so the resources is more the how we teach it or the, with what
Emily Makelky: Yep.
Jethro D. Jones: so what about curriculum versus standards?
Because in my experience, I would say that you're describing as a curriculum
is really the standards and the resources is the curriculum, the how you teach the
standards, how, where do you fall on that?
Emily Makelky: You bet.
standards of course, are, adopted or created by the state.
And they basically tell, your teachers or your school districts, hey, within
that state, hey, this is what kids need to know and be able to do.
But the thing about those, there's, two things that I want to point out.
The first is that, actually is the minimum.
And some teachers, probably, especially math teachers right
now are saying like, what?
That's the minimum and you expect us to teach more.
Nope, not necessarily.
I don't expect you to teach more, but if there are some skills or, if
there's content that is not included, or that are not included in your state
standards, but that you value as a school district, as a community, and
you want to include that, you can, you have the, per you have permission, you
have the flexibility to do that and include that into your, curriculum.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, so we won't get into this whole discussion about the
minimum standard and whether or not states trying to force too much or, any of that
Emily Makelky: Sure.
Jethro D. Jones: that's a whole separate discussion.
And we're just going to recognize that if you work in the United States, the
state has a curriculum or a, set of standards that you are required, that's
the minimum that you should be teaching.
Emily Makelky: Correct.
Jethro D. Jones: and we can agree with that and be, and we can
move on from that discussion.
Because the key piece here is that you basically have to make sure
that those things that are supposed to be taught are actually taught.
And if that's the case, then you're doing the job that the state is
requiring, which totally fine.
But for anybody to think that minimum is the like.
Is the doctrine, the thing that, that only this and nothing but
this is, just crazy in my mind.
Emily Makelky: Sure.
Jethro D. Jones: this whole like solo scriptura thing.
Like this is the only thing and we can't accept anything
Emily Makelky: Yep.
Jethro D. Jones: Only the standards that the state says is all we can teach.
That seems a little bizarre, right?
Emily Makelky: I agree.
And I would honestly say that would, to me, it sounds like a cop out, for,
teachers or school districts to say, no, we can't do more than what the state says.
I would just say that's a cop out.
You absolutely can, and and perhaps you should, depending on, on, on
the factors in your school district.
Jethro D. Jones: yes.
And you, it's going to be hard to not.
Do more than the standards because you, there, there's the implicit curriculum,
the explicit curriculum, and then other biases and things that you bring in
and things that you think are important you want your kids to know that
aren't necessarily in the standards.
And I said we weren't gonna go into this, so we're not going
to, so we're gonna move on, but.
But the next thing is, is developing this curriculum, what it is that
you're going to teach at your local level, and how important that is.
So, talk about why that matters and how local should we get school department,
or should it be limited to the district?
do you manage that?
Emily Makelky: we suggest.
That local means school district, so district wide.
and really the, reason that we say that is because very often we have kids transfer
from one school within a district to a different school within a district.
And so if you keep the curriculum, the, same, at least what it is you're teaching.
And if you think about pacing being the same, and that really is a,
discussion maybe for another time, but also a discussion at your kind of
district-wide decisionmaking level.
The reason behind that is so that teachers can collaborate and talk about
what's working for them, and basically how can you be a better teacher, but
also for those, kids that transfer from one school to another so that
there's no time wasted, they are, able to, as much as possible, pick up
where they left off and, continue on.
So we would say that, your curriculum, we would recommend
creating a a, guaranteed and viable curriculum at the district level.
Jethro D. Jones: So having that at the district level, why?
Why do we bring.
staff in to do this?
What's their, role in working on creating that curriculum for the district?
Emily Makelky: there are a few things to consider when doing this.
First, this is a big ask and for sure, all of your administrators listening
right now are like, oh my gosh, I'm supposed to ask them to do another thing.
They're gonna revolt.
And,
Jethro D. Jones: pause right there.
Emily Makelky: okay.
Jethro D. Jones: a
Emily Makelky: Okay.
Jethro D. Jones: I, so I'm doing a doctoral program right now, and
last night in my class, one of the principals said, I feel like I can never
ask my teachers to do anything more because they're always doing so much.
And I gotta tell you, Emily, that is such a cop out.
it drives me crazy because teachers want to be doing meaningful work.
This developing the curriculum that you're gonna teach is meaningful work.
You know what they don't want to do?
They don't wanna do another baloney, doesn't matter, form that the district
needs or something that doesn't impact what's going on in their
Emily Makelky: Yep.
Jethro D. Jones: So it's not that teachers are too busy to do the things
that they need to do, it's that we ask them to do stupid things like
filling out a form for reimbursement,
Emily Makelky: Yeah, sure.
Jethro D. Jones: That is one of the things that is a little tedious thing.
Doesn't take a ton of time, but it takes enough that it disrupts your flow and
it's not what teachers are typically good
Emily Makelky: Yep.
Jethro D. Jones: This, however, is the thing that they should be spending
their time and energy on figuring out what and how to teach their kids
that are right there in front of 'em.
Thank you.
I go
Emily Makelky: That I could just see you like step up onto
that soapbox and step back down.
Jethro D. Jones: Yes, I do that a lot.
Yes.
Emily Makelky: I love it.
That's okay.
Yeah, and I would 100% agree what I would argue too.
Is that developing your local curriculum is the first thing that you should do.
or that, your, you should have your teachers do, figuring out, because
it's the foundation of all of teaching and learning what you know,
Jethro D. Jones: Okay.
All right.
I'm sorry.
I gotta
Emily Makelky: you're good.
Jethro D. Jones: again because if you do this work.
Then a new teacher coming on, how do you ask the new teacher to be
involved in the curriculum process?
If you've been doing this work for five years, let's say
Emily Makelky: Yeah.
Jethro D. Jones: what's, their role?
Because what it sounds like you're saying is you need to start and then
everybody does it and then we're done.
And I don't think that's what you're actually saying.
Emily Makelky: No, it's not what I'm, it's not what I'm saying, but it, what
I am saying though is if you don't ha, if you have not already been through
this process, if you haven't already identified what your curricular targets
are, then pause maybe some of your other initiatives and focus on this one first.
Then revisit it.
Curriculum work never ends.
And I am a huge proponent for if something isn't work, use your common sense.
If something is no longer working, let's not just continue to do it because,
we are just told this is what we have to do, but hey, let's revisit this and
say, you know what, it's not working.
Let's, fix it.
So typically, and, really best case scenario is that, okay, we go through
this process, say for math, and we, we, create their local curriculum
and then, and, put it in draft form.
We try it out for a year, two, we develop some assessments that align to it.
Great.
We've got this nice little package that now our teachers can use moving forward.
Excuse me.
But then we do need to revisit it and revisit it.
As far as new teachers coming in, this is like a huge, help, I know
when I started teaching and, I taught business and computers, there, there
was nothing anywhere about what is it that I should be teaching.
And I actually came from the business world and started teaching, after I had
been, doing something else for a while.
So when I came in.
I'm looking around my classroom like, okay, so what is it
that I should be teaching?
and I went down to my principal's office and he said, I don't know.
You're the professional.
Teach what you think is right.
And I remember,
Jethro D. Jones: That's huge,
Emily Makelky: oh my gosh.
Jethro D. Jones: being told, you're the professional, you decide what to teach.
that is not what most teachers hear.
Most teachers hear.
This is what you have to teach, this is how you have to teach it.
And it is in incre.
that's really the case, just have, just buy an AI bot to do it because.
What's the point of having a human
there?
I, and I'm not kidding either.
If, we know exactly what to teach and how to teach, just have the, AI do it.
Emily Makelky: Sure.
Jethro D. Jones: sorry, I keep
Emily Makelky: No, you're good.
Jethro D. Jones: to your
Emily Makelky: I did,
Jethro D. Jones: on.
Emily Makelky: what was very scary for me, was a couple of things.
I was not a teacher at that time.
I was just beginning my degree and, so I. When he said that, I was terrified.
I was like, oh, shoot, I don't, know.
And in that same conversation, when I applied to become a teacher, I applied
for the computer applications position.
But as I was talking to him, two weeks before the start of school, I
also found out that I was gonna be teaching Intro to Business, multimedia,
advanced Multimedia Accounting.
In your book.
All things.
Yeah, I was like, okay, so, I don't know what I'm supposed, I didn't even
know what the word multimedia meant, let alone teach it, and advanced multimedia.
So, bringing it back to my point about if you have this curriculum that is
created, it is ready to go, and you have assessments that are aligned to them.
You have a new teacher that comes in and you do, a bit of training with them
on this is how you read the curriculum.
This is what it means, this is how you use it to develop your lesson plans.
Then they at least ha at least know what is it I'm supposed to be teaching?
And now they can use kind of data points, what worked, what didn't work.
And it, and in my case, I was the only teacher in the district.
It was a very small school district, so I was the only one
that even taught these things.
But when you have, multiple teachers, they can talk about what's working,
what isn't working, and really just go back to that whole PLC, idea
and just focus on getting better.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.
the idea of curriculum being.
Constantly evaluated
Emily Makelky: Yeah.
Jethro D. Jones: and checked.
A, perfectly appropriate thing for a new teacher who's never taught it
before to do, is to come in and say, here's where it doesn't make sense,
Emily Makelky: Sure.
Jethro D. Jones: and to give them a role.
As a newbie with fresh eyes who doesn't hasn't been there for 20 years and
doesn't know all the ins and outs, that's a great opportunity to listen
to them see what they have to say.
Liz Wiseman wrote a book called Rookie Smarts, where she talks about how
powerful it is for someone to be a rookie, which means that you're not, not bound
by the things that, that already are happening there because you don't know.
I was talking to someone yesterday who was in the business world
and he became a writer and let me see if I just took his this note.
He said it's often better to come from an outsider's perspective
because you don't fall into the.
Assumptions and all the things that are built into that already.
And you can be critical without being derogatory or dismissive,
but you're critical because you're new and you don't understand it.
And that's a great opportunity for new teachers to be involved in the curriculum
design process, the day they start.
Emily Makelky: I agree with that.
I do wanna push back just a little.
Jethro D. Jones: Oh, good.
Le
Emily Makelky: Yeah.
Jethro D. Jones: it.
Bring it on,
Emily Makelky: Bring it on.
No.
Really what I wanna push back on is.
there, at least in our curriculum development process, we spent about
eight days with this committee of teachers, kindergarten, pre-K if you
have it through, through 12th grade.
Talking about the vertical alignment piece, what is everybody, what is
their true focus of what's going on?
And a lot of times when you have a new teacher come in, and I don't
necessarily mean like a brand new teacher, straight outta school, but
a teacher maybe from another school district that taught something different
or taught something, and is just comfortable in what they're used to.
I do wanna caution you not to just say, yep, you can go ahead and change
that because it's what you're used to, but instead, let's talk about.
At, even if you have to pull that committee back in and say, Hey,
these are the conversations that we had and this is why we, wrote it and
put it together the way that it is.
So, I'm not saying no to what you said by any means because I think
there's so much validity in that.
But also there is validity to that whole process of having the full K
12 team together, talking through who owns what, if that makes sense.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.
I appreciate that because what I was thinking was a brand
new OUTTA college teacher.
Emily Makelky: Sure.
Jethro D. Jones: in the classroom.
That's what I was
Emily Makelky: Gotcha.
Okay.
Jethro D. Jones: because there is a difference between someone coming in with
10 years experience new to a district.
and here's the other thing, in education, we act like nobody
ever leaves and nobody ever
Emily Makelky: All right.
Jethro D. Jones: is it's rare to not have someone new in your building
at a school level every single
year.
And so change is actually constant.
And when I was principal of a school in.
Fairbanks.
We had, it was a seven, eight middle school, and a third of our stu or half
of our students were military affiliated.
So every year, a third of them moved
Emily Makelky: Sure.
Jethro D. Jones: knew moved in.
So every year we had about two thirds of our student body that
was brand new to our school.
Emily Makelky: Wow.
Jethro D. Jones: that.
We had new teachers.
We had, teachers who were military associated, who left also.
And what I loved about that was that we didn't have to hold onto these old
things because a third of the kids might actually remember that was going on.
Emily Makelky: Yep.
Jethro D. Jones: And so it was really easy to say, oh.
I got on one of my counselors about this one time.
She said, she was like, we used to do it like this, and now we do it like this.
And I was like, why would you even say that?
You don't need to say, we used to do it this way, because it's not a change for
them because everything is new to them.
Emily Makelky: Yep.
Jethro D. Jones: just explain it how it works.
Right now, and it
Emily Makelky: Yep.
Jethro D. Jones: matter how it used to work, we can change things every
year very easily because of this unique situation that we're in.
back to my original point, we're always changing and so we need to have plans for
when we do change and when somebody leaves and somebody comes in away to keep the
continuity that we think is important.
There when teachers change, leadership changes, students change, all those
things change, and we need to have some way to make sure that the things we
think are important are still continuing.
Even with those changes.
Emily Makelky: Yep.
Absolutely.
And thinking from the, perhaps principle perspective on, on this,
I really think it's important to, I. make sure that the culture, or
maybe it's the climate, I can Yeah.
Get those two mixed up a little bit.
Jethro D. Jones: all right.
we'll call it culture,
Emily Makelky: okay.
Jethro D. Jones: what you're
Emily Makelky: Okay.
Jethro D. Jones: ahead.
Emily Makelky: basically that it's okay to, mess up.
It's okay to try something out.
You are not expected to be.
I don't know the authority in your content.
And I'm, now I'm speaking from the high school perspective because I find
that at the elementary, teachers are very comfortable just trying things,
collaborating, messing up like that is very normal, but at the high school level,
it doesn't tend to be, I, feel like high school teachers tend to be very defensive
and very resistant to, to change.
And so making sure that.
That they know they're, not gonna be in trouble because they screwed up.
Or because they wanted to try it and it didn't work.
I don't know.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.
Emily Makelky: yeah.
I don't know
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.
one, one of the issues with that is that high school
and middle school teachers to an extent also.
focused on the content area that they're teaching because that's
what they spend the most time
Emily Makelky: yep,
Jethro D. Jones: They, have kids cycle through their classroom 45, 55, 90 minutes
a day, and, but they are focusing on their content all the time and that, that is one
of the challenges that we face is that.
they put more emphasis on the content than they do on the students.
And they need to remember that they're teaching students,
they're not teaching content.
that is a, difficult thing to, to adjust your perspective on, especially when
you've been in this system for your whole career of this is what it's like.
I've said this many times on the podcast, so people who listen
regularly, this is just one of my constant refrains, in Russian.
The way that you say that you are a teacher.
It is impossible to say, I teach math, or I teach English, or I teach first grade.
You say, I teach students to that math, and basically the way that it
translates is I take students to the content area and that is a much different
approach than how we talk about.
Teaching in the United States, we teach English to students, and
the reality is that really you are taking those students to the content.
And if you think about it like that, it changes your perspective and
makes you think about it differently.
And that's one of the powerful things that, that I, when I learned Russian,
I was like, wow, this is deep.
And there's real depth to this understanding of what it means to teach
that you're not teaching a content, you're teaching students, and the
focus should be on those students.
But it's important to know what you're doing with this content, but it's always
gotta be secondary to the students.
And I know not everybody agrees with me on that, but that is a,
hard line in the sand that I draw.
Emily Makelky: I do agree with you on that.
And, part of the work that we do, is what we help school districts
develop a curriculum coordinating council is what we call it.
But it's, this council that oversees all of teaching and learning.
Very similar to a guiding coalition within PLCs.
Except ours, would be district, it would be district wide
and not just school based.
but one of the conversations that I always had, as a consultant with
this group is really just, talking about, oh gosh, what is it Maslow's?
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.
Emily Makelky: Y
Jethro D. Jones: hierarchy of
Emily Makelky: Thank you.
Yes.
So, really focusing on that with your students.
If they aren't getting food at ho, if they're hungry all the
time, they're not gonna learn.
Okay.
It doesn't matter what, you're trying to teach 'em, they're not gonna learn.
And building relationships, I know that was my husband's big thing.
Making sure to build relationships with those students.
If your student does not feel comfortable and safe, or feel like they have a
relationship with their teachers.
They're not gonna learn.
so yes.
we focus on the curriculum piece and what is it that you're supposed to be
teaching, but you can't even really get to that until you make sure that you've
got those other foundational pieces set up, and really functioning well.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.
absolutely.
So let's talk a little bit about the principal's role
Emily Makelky: Yeah,
Jethro D. Jones: in doing
Emily Makelky: sure.
Jethro D. Jones: we've talked a lot about district-wide stuff, but the, principal
really should be, a lot of people say the instructional leader, you're
probably gonna say the curriculum leader.
what does that mean for the role of the principal?
Emily Makelky: I would say that all of this work lives or dies
with the principle so often.
We'll be working with a committee that includes teachers from, various
schools within the, district, various, grade levels within the district.
And they'll raise their hand and say, Hey, this is awesome work.
I love what we put together, but how are teachers gonna
be held accountable to this?
Because if principals don't truly understand this work, then they're not
going to make sure that the expectation and hold their teachers accountable.
To teach again.
So if that's the case, then it dies.
But, but if.
As a principal, if you can participate in, the, process, I
think that is, is just enormous.
and really, I don't mean come to the meetings and sit in the back of the
conference room and still be on your email checking your phone texting like that
really, it almost defeats the purpose.
it, would almost be better if you weren't there.
Because then teachers can see that you really don't care about it.
So if you are able to, and I know how busy principals are,
Jethro D. Jones: but it's still a cop out if you say you're too
busy what you focus on.
Emily Makelky: I.
Jethro D. Jones: that, that excuse doesn't fly to anybody listening to this show.
Emily Makelky: So if you can block off on your calendar, the
curriculum development dates.
And, I would also say, and actually this came from my father-in-law who I think
has also been on your podcast, Jeff
And he suggested.
Select a content area.
So if you were a social studies teacher, if that's where you feel
more, most comfortable, then sit on the social studies subject area
committee and participate as a teacher.
Would as a full committee member participate in the process in developing
this so that when you go back to your, school and to your teachers, you can
say, this is the work that we did.
This is how we did it.
This is why, which is the biggest piece you've really gotta.
Gotta, hammer in your why, do we do it?
And then why is it so important to hold your teachers accountable?
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.
Yeah.
This is good.
one of the things that you said.
disagrees with the point you just made, is the, teachers.
The teachers are the professionals, and yet the principal needs
to be at the meetings.
And, this is an area where, where would diverge a little bit and I
would say, it's essential for the principal to know what's going on.
But I wouldn't say that the principal has to be at those meetings necessarily,
but I'm open to discussing this.
And so how do you balance that?
teachers are professionals and should be able to make these decisions
with the principal needs to be there and engaged in it, like really?
The principal, in my opinion, should probably take a step back
and say, you're the professionals.
I'm gonna support you and I don't have to be at those meetings
because you know how to do this.
how do you reconcile that?
What are your thoughts
Emily Makelky: Yeah, I, suppose that, that, what I mean is that
the principal should participate, but not in, an evaluative way.
So the principal should not be there saying, or, judging their teachers.
Instead they should be their peer.
And discussing and working through why is this happening Now, if there are
principals that are going to go and judge their teachers and say, Nope,
you, need to be teaching this, then perhaps they should not be sitting
on those subject area committees.
But if you're able, as a principal, if you're able to put yourself
back into your teacher role.
And discuss and talk through.
'cause that's the point of this work.
When we work with school districts, we, say it'll take eight days,
throughout the school year or perhaps, over the summer or something.
But, there's a lot of discussions that happen about what is it,
what skills, what content.
That we should be teaching.
And so I think that if a principal comes in and is able to just participate, in
those conversations to determine that, I think it's healthy and I think it's okay.
And I think it will help improve that, piece.
Moving forward within your school district, and they can explain,
to, teachers that did not sit on those committees, what happened,
why is it not, why is this change not a scary change, perhaps?
How can we embrace this?
Yeah, and I think I'm getting ahead of myself, but, thinking about, the
principle as a, an instructional.
Leader, being able to pro provide feedback to, your teachers when you do
a walkthrough and you fully understand curriculum and how it was developed, what
the learning tar targets are, and then you do a walkthrough with your teachers
and you can say, Hey, I. I, I saw by your pacing guide, and your curriculum,
that this is the learning target.
You were supposed to be teaching or you were expecting to teach.
I didn't see any evidence of it.
visually it's nowhere, whatever.
and I couldn't hear the alignment, of your instructional strategies
to the curricular target.
you can have kind of some meaningful conversations and I'm
pretty sure that was a tangent.
I apologize.
Let's write it back in.
Jethro D. Jones: okay.
It's all good.
so to that piece about the instructional leader, I, I think is important also,
but I think we misunderstand what that means and, and a lot of times we
give the impression that the principle is the main expert and the one who.
Who knows more than anybody else.
And I don't think that is either necessary or wise, because principals are managing
this big, huge system and they're, setting the vision, they're guiding
it, and they're setting up the school for success and all this kind of stuff.
for them to be the.
The final answer on everybody's skill and proficiency at teaching is a little
bit silly to be honest, because they.
I don't believe that is their most essential role.
I think those other things I described of designing the school, which I talk
about in my books of you have a just a warm body who's just there in the school.
You have a manager and that person just makes sure that things don't go wrong.
And then you have a leader who like sets a vision and makes plans and does
a good job as the instructional leader.
But then you have a designer who actively designs and sets
up the school for success.
And if the designer is the one who's doing everything, it's not going to work.
they, the idea of a one act or a one person play exist where that
person is the director and the sole actor, and they play all the parts.
does exist, it's a lot better when there's a director and a whole bunch
of actors who are playing different roles and that's the thing that
actually draws people to, movies and shows and events and things like that.
the other analogy that we'd like to draw is with sports that.
there's a coach and the coach is not out on the field playing and the coach can't
and shouldn't be out on the field playing.
And, a great coach right now is Andy Reed who played football in
college, but then became a coach and didn't play in the NFL and yet.
He's one of the most successful coaches out there, and so we have to understand
that your role is different and you're not a teacher anymore, and you have
to let those decisions be made and let other people do those things.
And this is still an idea that I'm working through, but there's
something there about your job is that much different from a teacher.
You can't, still be doing the teacher things and giving feedback
about curriculum alignment is one of those things, in my opinion,
that principals need to let go of.
And teachers need to hold themselves and each other more accountable than relying
on the principal to be the one to do that.
And this is the first time I'm saying this out loud.
How does that jive with
Emily Makelky: I think,
Jethro D. Jones: poke
Emily Makelky: no, I actually really love it.
I'm putting, I'm gonna put my teacher hat back on.
I remember, in my, I don't know, I don't know if it was like my interim evaluation
or summative or something like that, but I remember, and this is going back
15 years or so, but still, it, was a rubric situation where I was evaluated
on, I don't know, 150 different things.
And I was docked on.
Something about my instruction, and I asked my principal,
I said, okay, that's great.
I'm happy to work on that.
Can you gimme an example of what that might look like?
And he said, no, I can't.
And I was like, okay.
And I don't blame him at all for that.
But it is, it's difficult when you're being evaluated
Jethro D. Jones: exactly.
Emily Makelky: they don't.
They can't, they can't go there.
they, their brains can't, my principal couldn't go there
and that is completely fine.
I am not criticizing him one bit.
It's more that evaluation piece where I was being evaluated, and I was frustrated.
So I actually do really like that idea of, hey, let's figure out what our roles are.
And we can let go of some of those things.
I think that's completely fine.
But I do, I, am gonna push back a little bit that I do strongly feel
like the principal does need to fully understand what curriculum is and why
it's the expectation, and then how to hold your teachers accountable and
make sure that they are, using it.
We just have a lot of school districts that we work with.
Where, excuse me.
When we roll out the new curriculum, there are teachers that say,
yeah, I'm just not gonna do that.
I'm just not doing that.
And it's not because of it, it's not because they're good
teachers and feel like it's wrong.
It's because they don't wanna change.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.
Emily Makelky: and I think that's, that is perhaps a, I don't know if that's a rule
of a principle, but, I don't think, yeah.
Sorry.
you go.
Jethro D. Jones: That, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
That is not a instructional leadership problem.
I. is a culture problem and a designer of a school problem that if somebody is
unwilling to change, that is the role of the principal to either get them outta
the school or put them in a position where they don't have to change or
do something make it so that they are aligned with the vision of the school.
And if you're not, you really shouldn't be at that school.
And that's just all there is to it.
And so then, that brings up all these other questions that we're not gonna get
Emily Makelky: Sure.
Jethro D. Jones: a new principal comes in and they're gonna be there for three
years and this teacher's been there for 20 and is gonna stay for another 10.
Like those are things that districts really need to evaluate when they move
people and when they hire people, and when they set principals up for failure or
success and what those things look like.
And the plan really should be like, this is your role.
if we just need a warm body.
Then the principal should not be making instructional leadership decisions
because they're just there to pass the
Emily Makelky: Sure.
Jethro D. Jones: If they're being moved to that school because there was a problem
at another school, but they can't fire 'em, for example, then that's on the
district and they should not expect, and that principal should not expect
to be an instructional leader at that school because, and that stuff happens.
We like to talk about, pretend like it doesn't, but it sure
Emily Makelky: Oh man.
Jethro D. Jones: That, specific instance, somebody not being
willing to change, that is not an instructional leadership problem.
That is a vision, that is a culture that is a school designer problem that
principals need to own and take on.
But that has nothing to do with the curriculum.
That is just hinge point That is just what's the word?
Focal point.
The thing that, that is causing the teacher to show their unwillingness
Emily Makelky: Yeah.
Jethro D. Jones: to buy into the vision of the district and the school
Emily Makelky: Yeah.
Jethro D. Jones: and that is what the real problem is.
But that has nothing to do with curriculum or instruction.
That just happens to be the spark that's sliding that bigger
Emily Makelky: Yep.
I agree.
Jethro D. Jones: this, is a good discussion.
I'm glad we're having this.
Emily Makelky: I wish listeners could see you right now.
You're fired up.
Jethro D. Jones: I am, I'm, I feel that I'm getting more fired up as time goes
on because I've been doing this thing for 10 year, more than 10 years, we keep
coming back to the same conversations and I can only imagine how someone
like Todd Whitaker feels who's been doing this way longer than I have.
And the same things keep coming up, but we gotta change the dynamic for
things to really, to be different.
And, I think.
That being an instructional leader is great, but here's, the thing that I
really want to get to, and I know we're not gonna have time to get into all
this, but my approach to curriculum is much different than a lot of people's.
And when we stopped focusing on saying, this is what we want the kids
to learn, and we started focusing on.
How do we make sure that kids are enrolled, which means they're choosing
to be part of their learning and they're somewhat in control of their
own learning that it's not all coming from the adults in the building.
Our students just blew our expectations out of the water all across the board.
The punk kids, the kids with disabilities, the gifted kids, every single kid more.
we expected them to, as we changed that approach.
So focus away from curriculum and focusing on actually engaging the kids
in what they're doing, that flipped a switch and kids just blew up.
Like their learning just went out of it just went crazy.
so my fear is that we're starting in the wrong place with all this stuff.
And I probably should have started the conversation with this,
but next time we can talk
Emily Makelky: Yeah,
Jethro D. Jones: but that's really an issue that I see in
our education system is that.
When we, force it, which is what we do when we have scope and sequences
and we have timelines of when kids should or when teachers should teach
what and pacing and all that, we are saying, this is how and when.
Kids, need to learn these things.
And the reality is, that learning is such an individual thing and it is so personal
to every single person that yes, you can make it happen this way, but it is.
You talked about the bare minimum with the standards, right?
This is really the bare minimum of instruction and,
the focus is on instruction.
The focus is not on learning, and there's a big difference between those two.
I just touched the tip of the iceberg.
What do you have to
Emily Makelky: I was just gonna, I think I would just say is there
a way to combine the two thoughts?
I agree 100% that kids all learn.
Differently at different times.
And, I have a 4-year-old and a 6-year-old, and looking at their classmates, it's
very clear that kids learn in different ways and at different times, and I
really hate the idea of kids being penalized because they don't have it yet.
They haven't gotten it yet.
And so how do we, combine the two ideas?
And think about, but what is it that they really do need to learn?
And maybe it's not at the end of kindergarten, they must learn this, or the
end of first grade they must learn this.
But by the time they leave our schools, they must know these things if they're
gonna be successful in the real world.
I do really think that there are some skills, and, there's content that really.
The majority of kids should know.
And I don't think that's calculus, I don't think that's, those higher level things.
But I do think that there are just things that our kids need to know to be good,
good humans and effective, individuals.
And so how do we make sure that they do get those things?
How do we focus on those things in ways that allow for, their,
own engagement and their own.
Kind of processing, to, to, make sure that they're learning those.
I think that those are conversations kind of district wide, to have
or schoolwide or, whatever.
But I, do love the idea.
I agree wholeheartedly that, that education does need to, change.
And I, do think that.
I don't know.
What we, what I've struggled with quite a bit is when we try to make
that change, there's so much pushback.
From all stake, from so many stakeholders, not all stakeholders, but
from so many stakeholders that people suck back in and say, okay, never.
Nevermind.
Let's not rock the boat.
Let's continue with what we are doing.
When really, I feel like there's just a hump.
And if you move past that and start seeing like, you did, when you start
seeing success, then roll with that success and let's make it happen.
But instead, I feel like a lot of times we get afraid and say, woo, nevermind.
I'm worried about my job, for instance, I'm worried about, whatever else.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, it's, and it's, yeah.
There's so much to unpack there.
But I will say this.
Once you get past the hump, you're absolutely right.
Things change.
Parents are like, my kid's never been this happy with school
Emily Makelky: Yep.
Jethro D. Jones: and whatever you're doing, I want you to keep
Emily Makelky: Yep.
Jethro D. Jones: it.
That, that is powerful because that's real and that is something that parents feel.
And when kids feel that way school, it affects other parts of their life also.
And so they might not be as crabby as teenagers with their parents when they're
having good days at school, but when they've got the thumb pushing down on
Emily Makelky: Yep.
Jethro D. Jones: and then they go to school and they got the
thumb pushing down on 'em again, that's, really tough for them.
alright.
This was a good conversation.
I think we're gonna need to talk again.
We didn't even get to ai.
We, didn't even get to so many things that we.
Could talk about in the
Emily Makelky: Sure.
Jethro D. Jones: And you and I have been talking for years also,
we should just continue this.
The thing that's so crazy is, I, like I said, I've been doing this for so long
and still there's so much left to talk
Emily Makelky: Sure.
Jethro D. Jones: there's so, many great conversations to have.
I, encourage you to connect with Emily.
She, as I mentioned, works for curriculum.
Learn Leadership Institute, and you can find them@clweb.org.
And, there's a link to that in the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org.
And Emily's email address is on there also.
Any, last question I always ask is, what is one thing that a
principal can do this week to be a Transformative leader like you?
Emily.
Emily Makelky: I, I, guess I would say.
Something they could do this week is starting to ask about, and we didn't
even talk about this, but starting to ask about learning in, in measurability.
Meaning instead of saying, okay, are your kids understanding what
they're supposed to understand?
Talk about it in, what is it?
How did they show you that they understand it?
If that makes sense.
We didn't talk about that yet another time, but, that is a piece of, curriculum
work, making sure that it's measurable.
What does it look like when a kid understands something?
Jethro D. Jones: Good stuff, man.
You're leaving us with
Emily Makelky: oh, cliffhanger.
Jethro D. Jones: Wait, that's great.
Okay.
Emily, this was awesome.
Thank you so much.
I'm definitely gonna
Emily Makelky: Thank you.
Absolutely.
I'd love to.
Jethro D. Jones: we should probably just schedule it, once you, after the summer
when you get all, settled in the new year.
We can, we should do that again.
Emily Makelky: you.
That sounds great.
Thank you for having me.