[00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology Podcast. I'm Krysia, and it's great that you've joined us this week. The podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and.

Non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish. If you'd like to access the [00:01:00] transcript for this episode, it can be found in the link in the show notes. And today on Cat Chat we're gonna have a recap and a topical discussion about our mental health series. So I'm gonna hand over to Zoe, who's got some insights to start us with.

Yeah. So as you'll know if you've been listening to the podcast over the last few months, we've been running a short series on mental health and autism. So this series followed the positive feedback we got after the Center for Autism and Theology's webinar on neurodiversity and mental health.

So after that feedback, we felt it was really important to keep the conversation going a little bit and provide further resources on the topic for our podcast listeners. So over the series, we've heard from Amy Pearson on masking. We've heard from Cody Crawshaw and Maddie Schofield on anxiety. And then most recently in July, we've heard from Grant McCaskill our codirector on diagnosis and fears and [00:02:00] uncertainties around this big word over diagnosis and how these things can impact the mental wellbeing of autistic people.

And we really loved hearing from our guests. And also exploring some of the topics further, and also other topics like tiredness and our CATChat episodes. We really hope that you've found this series helpful. Um, and mental health is a topic that we'll continue to explore in the podcast. But yeah, we just wanted to spend a bit of time for this CATChat episode, reflecting on the series, thinking about, um, why it's been so important

and just discussing how we hope to continue these conversations in constructive ways. 

Yeah, I'm, I'm really glad for this discussion. I think it's one of the, it's, it's clearly one of the big ones, both by the response that we've had to it and, and the, the, um. Just the statistics, right? Um, the reality is that neurodivergent folks have mental health issues at a, at a higher rate than the general population.

Um, we always try to be and [00:03:00] want to be affirming in our discussions, um, through the Center for Autism, autism and theology, but there's also. Um, we, we, we can't hide from the realities and, and a lot of church communities are wondering how best to support neurodivergent folks in their congregations. And the reality is a lot of times.

That's going to involve mental health supports, right? If you want to, if you really want to be neurodiversity affirming and welcoming in your congregation, you have to be aware of what people are going through, and you have to be willing to support them where they are, um, and not just pretend everything's perfect and everyone's, um.

EE everyone's coming in the door in the exact same way. So I think it's a really important conversation. I think there's obviously more conversation to be had, um, but it's, it's just, it, it, it, it's good to talk about it, to help to destigmatize it. There is still a great deal of stigma around [00:04:00] mental health in the church and in society more broadly?

Uh, the more that we talk about it, the more that we face it, honestly, the more that we treat it like any other health issue, right? We don't, we're not embarrassed about being about having an infection, but we're embarrassed about being anxious or we're, we're embarrassed about talking about anxiety. Um, so the more that we can destigmatize it, the more we can bring it sort of out in the open, then the more we can actually.

Address it head on and help people who are having mental health issues, mental health crises. Um, and, and that's just really important, not only for neurodivergent folks, but especially maybe for neurodivergent folks. 

Yeah, absolutely. And I really like what you said about churches and congregations understanding what people are going through and that it's more than just the experience of being autistic.

There's these co-occurring experiences, like mental health issues, and I think that's so important as well. When we think about resourcing churches, it's [00:05:00] as much as it is. Um. Supporting churches and encouraging churches to be more inclusive. It's also understanding that a lot of people are really struggling and just whether it's like fixing lighting or fixing the sound, that doesn't necessarily, um, like there's still so many underlying mental health challenges that often need unpacked and supported when we're talking about neurodivergent people.

So it's important, yeah, the sort of sensory stuff need to be addressed, but also the underlying emotions of. Being an autistic or neurodivergent person in a world that isn't suited to you, that's so important to address and think about. 

Yeah, and I think in particular in relevance to Amy's episode, which was really not only really fun to record, but it was also just so important as well, because I think there's lots of people when we know stuff.

We want to help people, as in we want to be able to empower people. We want to be able to make [00:06:00] people feel comfortable. We want to help people to flourish, and I think there is at the moment a little bit of a disjoint between what people know and what they, I. Want to know, and I think that's why these conversations are just so I important and also bringing them outta perhaps the more academic field where we might use really quite specific language and into kind of just everyday conversations, which is just part of the heart of what we do on the Autism Theology Podcast.

Yeah, and just following on from that, I think what I've enjoyed about each episodes like Amy Cody and Maddie Grant is the very like. They've given us really clear definitions for what we're talking about, which with each thing, because I think sometimes like masking anxiety over diagnosis and diagnosis, these words are kind of thrown around quite a lot.

And sometimes when we talk about them, it can maybe be like a lack of clarity about what we're actually saying. So for example, [00:07:00] Amy Pearson was very clear about the difference between what. Like stigma management and um, kind of, I can't remember her wording. 

Presenting different parts of who you are Yeah.

And how you might be with the different people. Yeah. And how that might differ compared to the actual protecting yourself. Exactly. And presenting quite. Unconsciously unconsciously to avoid detection or difference in stigma. Yeah. 

Yeah. Like the idea that everyone does that, but masking for an autistic person is something very clearly different.

And same with like Cody and Maddie talking about, um, what I. Anxiety disorder actually means, and how that maybe differs from everyday feelings of anxiety. And I, and like again, grant, talking about diagnostic processes, I feel what we've gained in this series, and I hope our listeners feel this too, is a very clear, like, this is what we're talking about.

And it's, I guess that's the education side of it, isn't it? It's equipping [00:08:00] us with the language to talk about these things.

Yeah, and we've talked before about how, what churches are looking for as a checklist of things to do. And the best that we can do, I think, is give them a toolbox, right, of different sort of things to approach, different topics to, to have at least a rudimentary grasp on so that you can recognize it when you're, when you're confronted with it.

Um, I think that's. The, you know, in some ways it would be much easier if we were able to give a checklist. And there are things that we can think about, but this is, this is what we're trying to do is, is these are all the different topics that might be relevant. Um, and unfortunately we can't tell you which are going to be relevant in any given instant because.

All autistic people and neurodivergent people more broadly are all individuals and they're all very different. Um, but what we can do is say, here are things that you need to be aware of, things that you need to consider. And I think that's, that's how this conversation keeps continuing.

[00:09:00] I wonder, I'd really love to hear Ian and Krysia at what you felt was the most, um, I guess, prominent thing that you took away from the series. Like is there anything that any of our guests said, or anything that we talked about in our cat discussions that just really struck you as very profound?

For me it was. For me, it was, um, the, the discussion we've already alluded to about stigma management versus, so for me it's a linguistic background, I think about code switching, right? The difference between the way that you talk to different people.

Um, but that, that idea that everybody changes the way that they behave in certain situations a little bit. But the difference between that and autistic masking, which is really stigma management, which is really a trauma defense. You've been told you are wrong often enough that you. That you hide your wrongness, quote unquote.

And I, I'm not endorsing that language, but that's the, that's, that's the way that it gets internalized. Um, and it's just, it's just fundamentally different than a [00:10:00] lot of people understand, um, on, on a basic level. And I just found that discussion really, really helpful. 

Yeah, and I think for me also in the conversation with Amy was being able to have that conversation around kind of how we.

Share information on autistic lived experience because that's something that as a researcher, I've often quite got people often ask for, or can you just give me a bit of free information and that kind of thing. And actually knowing kind of some really good resources. Obviously I know good resources, we, we, the three of us know good resources, but kind of being able to think of what actually good resources.

We can share specifically on masking I think was really, really important and really useful and it's something that I've kind of carried along that's probably going to be part of things I recommend when asked that question again later down the line,

yeah, those are [00:11:00] both really interesting things and definitely like for me, it's similar. Just those things have really struck out. I think doing the episode, recording the episode with Grant, I think I found that the most educational for me, like. I really didn't know a huge amount about the diagnostic, um, process.

Like for me, I was diagnosed as dyslexic at the age of like 10 ish, and then I'm not autistic, so that's not a process that I've had to go through. So I found that really helpful actually, just. Although I know a lot about autism and theology, I don't think I'd ever actually sat down with someone and heard a lot about the diagnostic process.

Um, some of the complexities of why people, um, are really like using these kind of terms, like over-diagnosis. Some of the fear around that isn't. It's just not an area that I knew an awful lot about. And obviously I. Had an idea that diagnosis and discourse around over-diagnosis would have an impact on mental health.

But just hearing grants, reflections on how complex it [00:12:00] really is. And um, also just, he talked a lot about, like, I. The issues that public discourse around overdiagnosis can then the impact that that can then have on policies when there's, um, so much media attention and people getting quite riled up that does have an impact on what happens in the country and what's funded and what isn't.

And just the importance of like, um, yeah, the importance of recognizing this cycle of how how government policies are informed. That was really fascinating. 

Yeah, and I think as someone who's done. A fair amount of social policy research assistant work throughout my PhD. I always find it so frustrating when kind of people who know the policy know the policy, but not necessarily everybody who's impacted by it.

And people in our churches, congregations, people down the local shop, people in the kind of other social groups or hobbies, you might not necessarily know the ins and outs of that policy and just [00:13:00] have. I really not necessarily know all the impact. And I just think unpicking that is just so important and breaking that down in such a clear way.

And I know certainly having GRA heard Grant speak a few times, he's just really, really good at kind of giving that whole story together. And I just think that's really important. I. 

Yeah, absolutely. And I really appreciated his vulnerability actually for all of, like for the episodes I did with Maddie and Cody and then also with Grant.

I feel like I really appreciated their vulnerability and just their willingness to talk about their own experiences. 'cause that's something we've probably not talked about either. Like it's a big thing when we invite people onto this podcast, um. Often ask them if they're willing to share their personal experiences and some things that have been really difficult for them.

And I think this mental health series has also made me really appreciate that more like what we're asking of people and how willing people are to share their stories in order to help other people. And that's been really [00:14:00] great.

As I said at the beginning of this episode, although we've done like a mental health series talking about mental health and autism is something that we will continue to do as the Autism and Theology podcast because it's something we view as very important for the reasons Ian shared earlier.

So just to end this discussion, we thought, um. We just discuss some kind of future topics that are related to autism and mental health that we maybe wanna chat about in the future and maybe could unpack more. Ian, I know you had a few ideas. 

I do, I, you know, the, in, in some ways the, the, at least classically speaking as far as mental health challenges, the big one is depression.

Right? Um, in some ways that's the one that's the scariest, has the most stigma around it. Um, we talk the least about in a lot of capacities, but is in some ways, uh, it can be, can be. The most damaging can be the most harmful, um, and is certainly very common among neurodivergent folks. [00:15:00] So I think that's one that it would be good to hit on at some point.

There are also two, uh, related topics that I see come up again and again. I. With autistic people in, involved in the church that are not classical mental health challenges, but are nonetheless, um, very commonly co-occurring in neurodivergent folks. One is, um, what's called PDA, which is, uh, the, the. Clinical terminology is pathological demand avoidance.

But you'll see a lot of, um, affirming folks refer to it as persistent drive for autonomy. And it's the fact that a lot of times if you tell neurodivergent folks or certain neurodivergent folks to do something, they just don't want to do it. And it, you know. We often assume that it's just stubbornness or, or being a stick in the mud.

And the reality is that it's that for, for some neurodivergent folks, it's, it's, it's more than that. It's wanting to be able to control what we can [00:16:00] control and, and feeling unsafe when we're, when we're pushed in a particular direction. So that's, that's one that I see regularly in the church. We're very good about telling people what to do and sometimes that can backfire.

And then the other is, um. We've talked about rejection, sensitivity, RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria is what it's called clinically. And that's the idea that sometimes feeling rejected is, is like an out of body experience for neurodivergent folks. And this is common in both, um, autistic folks and ADHDers and probably some other neurodivergence uh, neurodivergent folks as well.

But. This is, uh, for me, there is a very strong possibility that that's a significant explanation for why so many neurodivergent folks are not in the church is because if we end up feeling rejected or judged by a community, it is so uncomfortable and so surreal an [00:17:00] experience that it is traumatic and that the, the best thing we can possibly do for our own self-help is just get out of there and never.

Be seen in that place again. Right. And, and unfortunately the stakes are really high with the church and we are really good at rejecting people in some ways. Um, and especially if you have a high degree of social expectations and someone behaves socially in a different way than you're expecting, we can unintentionally reject neurodivergent folks and cause them to, to retreat or to flee, um, out of self-preservation.

And I just think it's worth exploring. 

Yeah, I fully agree with those, like all topics that I really hope we get people who have the authority and have the knowledge to share about those things and really educate us on them. Um, yeah, I think. One area for me that I would love to have done and we actually, I'd hoped to do it for this series, but we just couldn't find anyone that [00:18:00] was appropriate for it.

But doing something about like mental health and the creative arts or music and how churches can maybe be incorporating those things to support the mental health of neurodivergent people. There's plenty of research talking about those things as, um. Quite therapeutic

and that's something I feel we could really talk about in a church context. But yeah, just couldn't find the right person. So if anyone knows of someone who would be, um, relevant to chat to, um, yeah, that would be great. I don't know. Krysia, do you have any thoughts of mental health type discussions you would like us to chat about on the podcast at some point?

Yeah, I think I echo a lot of what you've both said around creative arts and also complex trauma. Trauma, trauma around perceived rejection. I think that's, they're both really, really important and they both, I. Have so much that could actually bend, kind of both pushes forward in terms of church saying this is the kind of [00:19:00] thing that is, you know, we could pull people in, helps us kind of do church beyond barriers, beyond walls, which see, as you both know, I'm all about.

Um, but also with the kind of more trauma and rejection sensitivity and how that all interlinks together into one big bubble of the trauma of being neurodivergent. I don't think that. There is enough kind of discussion within church context, especially when we think about some of the narratives that less affirming places may have around what it means to be autistic.

Um, dyslexic dyspraxic, A DHD, more broadly neurodivergent, if we include severe mental illness into that as well. Um, that I think actually there's an awful lot that could be discussed and unpacked a lot more, and I think also people's stories as well. Can be platform and heard more.

[00:20:00] Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, it's just been fantastic to have a little bit of a closing up of this series and yeah, just share some of our reflections and things that we'd like to discuss going forward. Um. Thank you to everyone who's listened to this series. If you haven't already, we really recommend going back and listening to our episodes.

It's been fantastic to have some really great guests on for this series. And yeah, we hope you enjoy it as we hope that you've enjoyed it as well. I. As always, if you wanna get in touch, you can email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on social media at Autism Theology. We would love to hear from you, whether that's to suggest episodes or just to say hi.

And finally we have a bit of announcement for a save the date. The Center for Autumn and Theology has an online conference on the fifth to the seventh to November, so quite a while away. So we'd really encourage you to get that in your diaries. It's on faith in the [00:21:00] margins, engaging with non-speaking and black artistic Christians.

It's gonna be. A three day event with various speakers, and we'll be sharing more about it on the podcast and also on our social media. So keep an eye out for that.

Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. If you have any questions for us or just want to say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter at Autism [00:22:00] Theology.