00:00:04:00 - 00:00:26:19 Justin Nabity This is the DocNation podcast. We are a movement founded by doctors for doctors dedicated to empowering medical professional to reclaim control over health care decisions and advocating for their fair share of the industry's resources. Please note the views expressed are those of DocNation and not necessarily those of our Guest or Reference Health centers. 00:00:26:21 - 00:00:43:11 Reid Lancaster I want to start this podcast off by saying, so I'm going to I'm going to just talk a little bit about Neil for a second, and then, Justin, I'll let you go, but let's, let's let's start. I'd like to start with saying, hi, I'm Reid Lancaster, I'm a founder of DocNation. Justin's a founder at DocNation as well. 00:00:43:11 - 00:01:05:10 Reid Lancaster And so is Neil. We have another founding partner, Doctor Anthony Giuffrida He wasn't able to make it today, but I just wanted to start out a little bit different today and say, hey, Neil. Neil is he's in the trenches. And Neil, I just wanted to say I was going to say this offline, but man, podcasts are supposed to be flowy and real and, you know, not scripted and we're not scripted. 00:01:05:10 - 00:01:20:12 Reid Lancaster And so I just want to say, man, thanks for your thanks for your support. I've known you for a long time now, but thanks for your support. And DocNation, you're, you're a very important founding member. And just tell us where you're at. And I think I think last week you were. Were you by a train station or something? 00:01:20:14 - 00:01:22:01 Neil Dougherty I was. 00:01:22:03 - 00:01:28:21 Reid Lancaster And why are you traveling so much? What do you do? Why are you traveling so much? And what got you interested in supporting physicians? 00:01:28:23 - 00:01:33:08 Neil Dougherty So this is, thank you for asking the question. I'm happy to be here... 00:01:33:08 - 00:01:42:18 Reid Lancaster Dr. Wheeler, sorry, we start off typically by doing that with you, but I just I just wanted to keep it real. I'm just impressed by my my my partner. So I just wanted a couple of minutes, for Neil, if you don't mind. 00:01:42:20 - 00:01:43:17 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Love it. 00:01:43:19 - 00:02:02:07 Neil Dougherty To start off here. I'm at Spine Summit here in Tampa. Right. This is an amazing meeting. It's a huge meeting for spine surgery. There's the deformity surgery. But there is a meeting that I just walked out of. It's a big lecture hall. Tons of physicians in there. I was talking about the future of spine surgery innovation. 00:02:02:10 - 00:02:32:04 Neil Dougherty That's what gets me going, right? The the new toys and new ways and solutions to help people in that conversation. Who was talking about physician collaboration. They also went on to mention that doctors are not, each other's enemies, right? Between specialties. Justin, you would love it because who said, Dr. Lenke said, sometimes hospitals are enemies, sometimes insurance companies are enemies. 00:02:32:04 - 00:02:52:11 Neil Dougherty But doctors, we need to stay together. There was like a DocNation, like advertisement a little bit there. And so I was like, this is exactly where I'm supposed to be. You know, you have those moments or you like, this is where I'm supposed to be in this lecture hall. And then when he was done, they started talking about some things, other spine things. 00:02:52:11 - 00:02:59:19 Neil Dougherty And so, DocNations where I'm supposed to be talking about this exact message. So I'm glad to be here with you, Doctor Wheeler. 00:02:59:21 - 00:03:00:13 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Awesome. 00:03:00:18 - 00:03:11:03 Reid Lancaster Thanks, Neil. Man, thanks for your commitment. We wouldn't be here without you. We're grateful for you. All right, Justin, without further ado, go ahead with your introduction of our guest, Doctor Wheeler. 00:03:11:04 - 00:03:37:00 Justin Nabity Absolutely. Today we're talking with Doctor Chaminie Wheeler, a passionate advocate for independent physicians and true physician leadership. She's leading the charge to restore trust in medicine by strengthening the doctor patient relationship free from the administrative interference that is so common. Doctor Wheeler has been instrumental in organizing independent doctors in Pennsylvania and Lehigh Valley, giving them a stronger voice in patient care. 00:03:37:02 - 00:03:42:13 Justin Nabity Doctor Wheeler, what inspired you to take such an active role in the independent physician movement? 00:03:42:15 - 00:04:08:21 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Absolutely. This is I love the, the the background right there that doctors do need to stick together. The what inspired me. So I, you know, went to medical school, I went to residency, worked in corporate health care really my whole life. In large health systems. And you, you know, get a census of number of patients you're supposed to see that day and you do your best. 00:04:08:23 - 00:04:40:06 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler And, and what I realized is that the longer I work, the more autonomy I was losing every single day to do, to, to use, the knowledge that I went to school for, to do and where how was I losing that autonomy? It was really being lost by regulations and different criteria that were placed on the doctor patient relationship by, individuals who didn't go to medical school. 00:04:40:08 - 00:04:47:10 Justin Nabity But aren't regulations good? Aren't they like what we need to have for protection? Like why why is that not better for for patients and you? 00:04:47:19 - 00:05:11:24 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler I think some regulations is good. But overall every health care decision needs to be be made between the bounds of the doctor patient relationship. It should be free of all other things. So one of the things like, you know, why do you have to do step one, two, three? If the doctor believes you should do step four why can we do step four and get that patient better? 00:05:12:03 - 00:05:24:09 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler If the patient wants to do step four the patient is willing to pay for step four, why do we need to do step one, two and three? Because that's the regulation. 00:05:24:11 - 00:05:30:08 Justin Nabity And from your perspective, what is the reason what's our justification for running you through all those extra hoops? 00:05:30:10 - 00:05:31:09 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler So in my. 00:05:31:09 - 00:05:40:02 Reid Lancaster Yeah define define what regulation means. Like that we're we're regulated. We can't go to step four but we have to go one, two, three. Why why is that? 00:05:40:08 - 00:05:41:10 Reid Lancaster What is the regulation? 00:05:41:10 - 00:06:04:09 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler one could be even a hospital. Hospital in that it makes a protocol that said, if a patient comes into the E.R. with shortness of breath, you order this, this chest x ray and that chest x ray needs to be ordered before. Even though I'm saying your judgment, the patient has been, I don't know, on a flight. 00:06:04:09 - 00:06:24:08 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler And you think it's going to be a pulmonary embolism? Time is critical for that evaluation, treatment and all of that. But the hospital protocol says we need to do a chest x ray first. We need to do this. We need to wait for D-dimer to come back before we can order that CT that could actually be better for the patient. 00:06:24:10 - 00:06:47:14 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler In some cases, we should go through all of those, but not in all cases. So one regulation could be a hospital driven protocol. That's that's literally there to, maybe as a safeguard, but it's really not I believe there is a lot more, incentives and financial gain to do more testing than to do what exactly is needed. 00:06:47:16 - 00:07:13:16 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Another one could be that's what the insurance requires. The insurance regulatory that says, you know what, shortness of breath. This is the diagnostic code. Therefore you need to go through step one, two and three. And therefore this is the way you need to do it. So it really is it's not best patient care. And it really interferes with the flow of the entire what's happening in the ER. 00:07:13:22 - 00:07:34:12 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Because you might have been able to triage and get that patient better and out and that bed available to another patient a lot faster. If you were free to make the have the autonomy to make the decision, and you're going to take responsibility for your actions, we have that. So there really should not be that hindrance. 00:07:34:14 - 00:08:04:21 Reid Lancaster So, Doctor Wheeler, if administration and the insurance companies are forcing you to practice medicine in a way that you don't see is best fit, and you are out of those three parties, the doctor administration and the insurance company, you are the the person with the knowledge, the person executing the plan. Why aren't you making that decision? Why would they make you do those those things? 00:08:04:23 - 00:08:31:21 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Because we sign an employee contract that says, I am going to follow this. This is what I will do. So that is where I realize to have to be the best advocate, advocate, and to have true physician leadership that can transform health care is really is to be independent, so that I am not worried about where my paycheck comes from, paycheck comes from, you know, what job I do for my patient. 00:08:31:23 - 00:08:56:00 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler And I. And so I am, independent physician, but I'm actually more purist in that way because I'm a direct primary care. So I even step outside of the bounds of that insurance regulation in addition to the administration. So in both things. So I have the autonomy to make the decisions that I that is best. And and it's beautiful. 00:08:56:00 - 00:09:16:11 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler I get to actually, even my patient this morning we talked about how in medical school we have learned that, you know, 17% to 75% of what's going on with the patient is really taking that history and to figuring it out. Then there's the physical exam and labs and testing is really should only be about 5 to 10% of the picture. 00:09:16:13 - 00:09:40:07 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler And why don't we do that? Because seven minutes is just it's not enough to take a good history. So we refer to another person, or we order a bunch of tests that didn't necessarily even need to be done. And that skyrockets healthcare. I think in 2023, there was, I think the U.S. healthcare cost was 4. ... I think 7 trillion. 00:09:40:07 - 00:10:02:04 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler I want to say, and of that and so when we so in my whole thing, it's about the doctor patient relationship. The more distance we put between the doctor and the patient, the more profit that it generates, because you limit the time between the doctor and the patient to be able to, you know, have that. 00:10:02:04 - 00:10:31:06 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler So you're more likely to write a script and it's, it incentivizes almost in a way, illness is easier to to somebody comes in, the blood pressure is high. It's much easier to put them on a beta blocker and send them on their way. It takes 30 seconds to write that, but it would take me 30 minutes not to write that script, because I need to talk to him about a lot more and take the liability to have them come back to get that blood pressure rechecked and make sure that it is going in the direction it needs. 00:10:31:08 - 00:10:46:18 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler And insurance billing code may just not cover that next visit or that next visit to get that person better. So it really our system is incentivized to keep prescribing that pill, maybe add another one to cover the side effects of one. 00:10:46:20 - 00:10:52:21 Reid Lancaster I'm hearing that insurance companies are incentivizing illness. 00:10:52:23 - 00:10:53:17 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Yes. 00:10:53:19 - 00:11:01:00 Reid Lancaster That that that's that's that's a powerful statement. But that's what I'm hearing. And that's the way I see it as well. 00:11:01:02 - 00:11:06:04 Justin Nabity Yeah. Yes. It's a common theme. Neil, you're going to say something a moment ago. 00:11:06:06 - 00:11:17:16 Neil Dougherty Yeah, Reid, you hear that? I hear that too. I also hear that, as a patient or a consumer of healthcare, I want to find a doctor that doesn't have to answer to anyone. 00:11:17:18 - 00:11:36:05 Reid Lancaster You know, I love that, Neil, I love that. Here's why. We don't just need to put it all on the doctors, because doctors are not doing a good job of taking the power back. That's why DocNation exists. We really shouldn't even exist. If doctors would just get together and create a collective bargaining group, that's really all we need. 00:11:36:05 - 00:11:56:19 Reid Lancaster We don't even need to start a union. We just need a collective bargaining group that comes together and says, okay, we don't like this, we're going to fight, and we don't even have to fight where, the patient, you know, we don't have to, I hate to say this word because people get so scared, but we don't have to strike. Like... 00:11:56:19 - 00:12:14:17 Reid Lancaster We don't have to go to that level. We just need to come together and be able to make decisions together and show some sort of power to let the the insurance companies know, okay? It's just not as easy as us calling the shots every step of the way. But Neil, you said something I think is really important. 00:12:14:19 - 00:12:37:21 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler We do have the power. I just like we do have the power because I think about like money drives everything, right. And the way that I see it is that every health care dollar in our system is paid for by our patients, and it's generated by a physician or a physician service. So when so we as doctors, really we just need to come together and recognize the autonomy we do have. 00:12:37:23 - 00:12:58:08 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler And really healthcare medicine cannot exist without us. And we went to medical school to take care of our patients. And it cannot exist without patients. So when we have both of those two things on both sides, we just have to recognize that and get behind it and go all in and say, this is it. 00:12:58:10 - 00:13:22:03 Reid Lancaster I think there are physicians out there who are going to listen to this podcast and say, that sounds amazing. Like, I would love to be in Doctor Wheeler’s shoes right now. What are some of the pitfalls and challenges, of being, a solo or being in private practice? What were some of the pitfalls or challenges that you faced that people are all thinking, can I even make money doing that? 00:13:22:03 - 00:13:28:06 Reid Lancaster So if I can ask, you know, do you know, if I can ask a kind of a personal question is, are the financials okay? 00:13:28:08 - 00:13:55:20 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler 100% they are. And so we have our office has only been open for a year and a half. And within that year and a half we have around 450 members. It's my husband and I. We have. So there is, there is a need in society for, our patients want a doctor that will take the time to listen to them and actually take a history, not just write a prescription. 00:13:55:22 - 00:14:17:16 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler I feel like the, role of a physician, especially in the, has been degregated to one who can prescribe and where more than one who can prescribe more than that, you know, and so the finances are good. Our last two meet and greets we had we had 20 people. We have done zero advertising. 00:14:17:18 - 00:14:36:23 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler It's all been word of mouth. We don't advertise. So, and I tell our, I like I have, you know, other doctors, I said, all you have to do is just do a good job with the patient in front of you and other. And it's, it's a it's a need. I don't consider health care as a right or privilege. 00:14:37:01 - 00:15:10:22 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler It's a need in society that needs to be met. And it should not be met for obscene profit. So it's our finances are good. And that's honestly why, I wrote a resolution here in Pennsylvania, in 2023 for to create an independent practicing physicians section within the Pennsylvania medical society. It was a hard fought battle, but we were able to create that because in Pennsylvania, about 78 of our, percent of our physicians are employed. 00:15:10:24 - 00:15:23:04 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler And, you know, 22 are independent. And that number is continuing to getting, change as our networks continue to engulf our, independent doctors. 00:15:23:07 - 00:15:23:15 Justin Nabity Yeah. 00:15:23:18 - 00:15:39:04 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler So our section, this is January 1st of 2025, is officially a section where I'm actually the board trustee for the independent section within the medical society. And we are going strong. 00:15:39:04 - 00:16:23:20 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler We just had a zoom meeting. We meet every month. Our meetings are well attended, and we have guest speakers that really think outside the box, innovative individuals that help grow. And so it is hard. It is hard, but it is so worth it because the reward is great. And I do I, I mean, I'm a pediatrician, so I do tend to live in the land of unicorns and rainbows, but I really believe the independent movement actually is going to be the, it's going to be the solution to health care doctors taking back autonomy and so, we have a lot of good things in play. 00:16:24:20 - 00:16:49:17 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler I when my husband and I just hosted a gathering, earlier in the month, in February, we had 47, doctors who drove from all over the state who came. We talked and we united. We have, a group in the Lehigh Valley that we created. There's about 70, some are physicians, some are non physicians like chiropractors that are on it. 00:16:49:17 - 00:17:10:08 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler But we have a group of about 70 with all kinds of specialties with our own. That is just our whole goal is so we have two large health networks in the Lehigh Valley, Saint Luke and Lehigh Valley Hospital. So our patients and we don't have the, the deep pockets to be able to put a billboard on every corner. 00:17:10:10 - 00:17:34:06 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler So we want to give our patients choices, though. So we came together, and our goal is that our patients can have a choice where if they want to go to a Saint Luke doctor, they can Lehigh Valley doctor, they can. Oh, and there's another website of independent doctors. Maybe I'll go to one of them, you know, is really is is free market increasing choice price transparency. 00:17:34:06 - 00:17:36:09 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler We got this. 00:17:36:11 - 00:17:36:21 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler You know 00:17:36:21 - 00:17:38:15 Justin Nabity I love how fresh this is. You are. 00:17:38:15 - 00:17:40:04 Reid Lancaster I know this is amazing. 00:17:40:04 - 00:18:00:24 Justin Nabity Year and a half you said and you know, for people that are afraid or think they can't do it, you're living proof that is possible. I'm so proud of you, Doctor Wheeler. What you what you've done? I was digging around a little bit, doing some research, and I got to see you stand up for yourself and for your practice and for your patients and so many people. 00:18:01:01 - 00:18:22:23 Justin Nabity When you were interviewed by the news and took a stand for what you believe, which is patient choice and physician choice, like, that's what's so awesome about DocNation is that we get to bring together so many leaders that are doing big things. It's hard sometimes, you know, you're so busy with your head down that you don't really know what's going on around you. 00:18:23:00 - 00:18:33:02 Justin Nabity And here we are. You are changing the game and you're taking on the Goliath here. That exists and it's working and it does. 00:18:33:02 - 00:19:00:11 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler It is. It's working because it's what's good. It is, it's good. Like for me, when you said on the news it was it was such a hard time. I'm a pediatrician. I've been a, advocate for, you know, vaccines my whole life, I, I, I've taken I mean, I've done spinal taps with, you know, with kids with vaccine preventable and kids who were vaccinated with meningitis, you know, so I've seen both sides. 00:19:00:11 - 00:19:25:19 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler I've seen the, working in pediatric ER. And, and when health care decisions were being made and, and, and just really forced upon people, for my, you know, my colleagues and my, like, the nurses and everybody was just not saying anything. It was so hard for me. I was like, you know what? We need to take a step back. 00:19:25:19 - 00:19:47:11 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler I mean, during RSV season, we always wore masks and gowned and gloved and went in to take care of our little babies. Right. That's what we did. Before we left the room, we took everything off and put it in the in a in a bin. And now I'm told that I can walk around the hospital wearing the same thing and it's okay to go from a patient room to a patient room, something I've never done. 00:19:47:13 - 00:20:06:16 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler And and it's supposed to be okay. And I'm not supposed to ask, is that okay? And why does that make sense? I'm I am literally not supposed to say that. And so I'm like, look, I know this. Everything is new and I honestly don't know where everything is the right decision or not. But I know we cannot be forcing things on people. 00:20:06:18 - 00:20:08:05 Justin Nabity Yeah. Yeah. 00:20:08:07 - 00:20:09:21 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler You know. 00:20:09:23 - 00:20:11:01 Justin Nabity So amazing. 00:20:11:03 - 00:20:37:15 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler It is. It's good. It's a we took a you know and our it's, it's, it's a it's a great journey. I mean there are independent doctors that are in all different specialties. We are actually have been able to advocate in the state of Pennsylvania to, decrease the strength of the restrictive covenant restrictions in Pennsylvania in healthcare. We got legislation, our governor signed last summer. 00:20:38:04 - 00:21:15:23 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler So, that was a, you know, some it's not exactly what we wanted, but it's better than what we had. You know, and and we chose direct primary care because it really is concierge medicine, but it's not concierge prices and truly does work. And we I really do, think the direct primary care movement, where we can expand HSA to increase choice for families and all of those will just really take off and transform health care to really be back, to restore that covenant of trust in medicine that we really need. 00:21:15:24 - 00:21:34:02 Reid Lancaster I think my favorite thing that you've said so far is that it's working because it's good. And I translate that to say it's working because it's the right thing to do, it's the right way to do medicine. And that's so refreshing to hear. But I also, I hear you saying this direction in this focus and my advocacy is not easy. 00:21:34:08 - 00:22:05:16 Reid Lancaster And I got to be honest, DocNation and our focus is not easy. You know, it's a challenge we're fighting. We're trying to get people together. We're we're we're we're going against the administration and regulation and and legal stuff. And so, that's like we have a sister in arms here. And I'm just encouraged today you're going through all these battles, yet you have a nice smile on your face and your focus because you know that what you're doing is the right thing to be doing, and it's working, and it's the good thing to be doing. 00:22:05:18 - 00:22:13:07 Reid Lancaster So I just want to say thank you so much for doing everything you're doing, and DocNation is here to support you in any way that you can see fit. 00:22:13:09 - 00:22:38:05 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler I would love it. I mean, if whatever that we can do to collaborate and help. And really it's not about just independent, like, I don't know if you saw on our website, but I firmly believe it, that, you know, independent doctors are the best choice for patient advocacy because you can actually say what you're saying in a hospital setting. 00:22:38:10 - 00:23:02:01 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler And not only that, we're the best advocates for our employed colleagues because we can advocate where they can’t, because of their contracts. So we are here for employee, you know, employed colleagues and for our patients and for each other. So you're right. We have got to be in the same sandbox and get along and say, let's move forward. 00:23:02:03 - 00:23:02:24 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler You know? 00:23:03:01 - 00:23:19:21 Neil Dougherty I would I would want like the person that's on my team to be able to say the truth and do the right thing. I would want my doctor to be able to tell me the truth and say the right thing and say the right thing, right. Do the right thing right now. I love what you're saying, and I'm inspired by your work. 00:23:19:23 - 00:23:24:17 Neil Dougherty I'm a fan now, so, Yeah. Thank you, 00:23:24:19 - 00:23:25:14 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Thank you! 00:23:26:09 - 00:23:47:11 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler And I would love it if you guys ever, you know, wanted to do this in Pennsylvania. Part of our independent physicians section group. I mean, we have it's it's it's really energizing. It's the only the reason it's not moving faster is because we are independent. We have to take care of the business of medicine in addition to our patients. 00:23:47:13 - 00:23:48:16 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Just not enough time. 00:23:48:20 - 00:23:49:22 Reid Lancaster That's right. 00:23:50:13 - 00:23:53:08 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Otherwise it would be moving faster. 00:23:53:10 - 00:23:54:17 Reid Lancaster We totally... go ahead, Justin. 00:23:54:19 - 00:24:11:01 Justin Nabity There's at least one thing that we need to do after this. And that is we helped a dermatologist start his practice in Pennsylvania, and he is doing really well. We need to get him connected with you. So maybe he's already connected with you. I don't know, we'll find out afterward. Like, let's make sure that we do that. 00:24:11:03 - 00:24:16:03 Reid Lancaster Doctor Wheeler, one of the things we do is we help manage private practices and start private practices. 00:24:16:03 - 00:24:17:06 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Okay. 00:24:17:08 - 00:24:30:23 Reid Lancaster Because we see that that is a way to freedom. And when I say freedom. I truly mean freedom. Physicians are not free. They get they they go to school. They work so hard they become elite all the all to be shackled. 00:24:31:00 - 00:24:53:04 Reid Lancaster Their decisions, their decision making, their knowledge, their experience is not flourishing because they're shackled by administration and the insurance companies. And, so we help start practices. But that is is this takes a long time. It takes a long time. And so that's why we started the advocacy side. To do more, more. You know. 00:24:53:06 - 00:25:17:15 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler That sounds wonderful because we started our DPC and I can tell you just in 2025, I have had five physicians reach out to me about how they can leave. And, you know, I just share our story and, you know, I'm willing to, but like, no, some would be great resources because they are they want to leave. They want to, you know, not be shackled. 00:25:17:15 - 00:25:19:14 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler They want to make those decisions. 00:25:19:19 - 00:25:22:21 Reid Lancaster We we've been helping doctors leave for 15 years. 00:25:22:21 - 00:25:24:07 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler That's wonderful. 00:25:24:07 - 00:25:31:13 Reid Lancaster So so do this will you reach back out to those five people and just send them over to us, and we will help walk them through the process. 00:25:31:15 - 00:25:33:11 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Okay. 00:25:33:12 - 00:25:34:01 Reid Lancaster Wow I really 00:25:34:04 - 00:25:43:00 Reid Lancaster feel like we have a sister in arms at some point. I want to meet your husband. Tell him thank you for all the work he's doing because we know it's a team effort. And we'll be in touch. 00:25:43:02 - 00:25:44:03 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Thank you. 00:25:44:05 - 00:25:45:13 Reid Lancaster Thank you so much. 00:25:45:15 - 00:25:45:21 Justin Nabity Thanks Dr. Wheeler. 00:25:45:21 - 00:25:47:07 Dr. Chaminie Wheeler Awesome. This was fun. 00:25:47:09 - 00:25:50:23 Reid Lancaster This is fun. You're awesome. 00:25:51:00 - 00:26:07:20 Justin Nabity This has been the DocNation podcast. If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe, rate, and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you are listening to us. Your feedback really helps us reach more listeners like you. We'd also love to hear your thoughts and any topics you'd like us to cover in future episodes. 00:26:08:01 - 00:26:15:10 Justin Nabity Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn for updates, behind the scenes content, and join the conversation. Thanks for listening.