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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Jess was talking about creating a course on the or my dirty laundry.
Yeah, helping a child through well the title wasn't even helping a child.
It was just Social Awkwardness.
Yeah.
Helping with social awkwardness.
And then she looked straight at me and said, this might be a good one for you, Scott.
And then I just blankly stared at her for a minute, wondering, what should I say?
Right, exactly.
No, I'm just kidding.
I'm pretty sure I had some sort of uh comment, but you told me I should make a bullying course.
Oh yeah, that's right.
And then give it to myself.
I did say that, didn't he?
Yeah.
So he can take it and he can give it right back.
So don't feel too bad for Scott.
Yeah, Jess says so herself.
Yeah.
Okay, let's see.
That's why we shouldn't do any opens anymore.
I think just
I'm sure there's w at least one person that actually enjoys these cold opens like this that have very little to do or nothing to do with the actual episode.
Yeah.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Let's talk about how we can be distracted by our phones.
I wish I was on TikTok for you.
Yeah, I'm sure you do.
I'd prefer.
Yeah, I'm sure you would prefer that
Today's episode is on yuck.
All right.
Today's episode is on parental phone use, Jessica.
I'm looking at you.
Okay.
You can yell you want.
So I wanted to start with something that I think most parents have felt where you're in the middle of a moment with your child.
playing or doing something, or maybe you're at the park or just playing on the floor or whatever.
And your phone buzzes.
You tell yourself it's just a quick check, but then five minutes later you look up and your child
has since moved on to something else.
And I think there's this feeling of guilt that we often feel.
So can you talk about this feeling?
I guess this parents' paradox
I think I read that somewhere, Parents Paradox, which I kinda like the uh the sound of them.
Where uh our phone is both kind of our lifeline, but also a source of deep guilt.
I mean I feel like you nailed it right there
Right?
To fully get into my answer, I think we'll get into the episode, but I think two things are true.
Like yes, our phone is our lifeline.
Yes, it's the way people get in contact with us.
And yes, sometimes our guilt is necessary
when it comes to phone use because I think a lot of the times we are on our phone too much.
And for myself, sometimes and I start to feel that guilt, it's like, do I really need to text my friend about this meme right now?
You know, I rarely text him out of a meme, but you know what I mean?
Like
Does this text actually really matter in this moment?
Can this wait till my child goes to bed or I'm not at the park playing with them?
Right.
And so I feel like there's a balance of like
Yes, sometimes we have to be on our phone or sometimes there's something urgent happening at work and we have to email back and forth and like or we have bills to pay and people, you know, they see you at the park
on your phone, but really you're e-transferring like five people that bills that have to be paid or whatever.
There's always this balance, but I do think sometimes the guilt that we feel can urge us to really question ourselves, like do we have to be on our phone right now?
Or
Maybe this could wait for later.
I don't know.
You might have different perspective than me because I have been feeling very not necessarily guilty, but just called to try and be on my phone less in front of the kids.
And I've noticed since being on my phone so much less, since January, which if you guys remember, that was one of my New Year's resolutions and I've actually stuck to it.
quite well.
I've noticed that what I used to think was like an urgent thing I have to respond to, although my friends maybe don't love it, it can usually wait till the kids are in bed and then I can get back to all my texts or whatever it is.
Yeah, and I would say that's a poor example
Using texts like you're a notoriously terrible texter.
Where you don't text for back for like five days sometimes.
Yeah, I guess I'm a bad texter.
It's mo I think for you it's more
Work related.
You're looking at DMs and stuff on Instagram comments, all that kind of stuff, and you'll check and then be on there for whatever amount of time.
So it's
It's work related, but you can still do it when you're not going to be able to do that.
Well even that like I feel sometimes I'm doing that, then I'm like, why am I checking this right now?
I could check this later
What I'm trying to say about the guilt is like I think I hear a lot from people like just trying to like shut down the feeling of parental guilt, but sometimes I do think the guilt
is important to just be curious about and see if there is any truth behind it.
Because sometimes guilt is just an indicator that we're living in a way that doesn't actually align with our values.
Yeah.
We might need to change something up a little bit.
So I'm basically what I'm trying to say is parental guilt is not always a bad
thing.
And sometimes we can be curious about it and realize I don't need to feel guilty right now.
Or maybe it makes sense that I feel guilty because I'm not acting in a way that aligns with my values.
Yeah.
Well and I think the point where you said
paying bills.
And some might say, well, just wait until they're the kids are in bed.
You don't have to do that at the park.
I think that is
Potentially possible for a time until your kids are old enough to stay up later and then they're almost up
We were just talking about this in the last episode.
Yeah.
Like our kids it's summer right now.
But like our kids have been up later.
We have like forty-five minutes to an hour, like some days, but by the time they go to bed, you kinda tidy the house, you sit on the couch.
You have maybe forty five minutes.
And if you have bills to pay, you have things that you have to do, people to get back to.
That's all completely taken up by doing that
So I do think that there is a level in which if you are with your kids all day long and they're at the park and they're nicely playing and you want to spend that thirty minutes trying to get back to some people or, you know, catching up on some stuff, like to me that's not something I'd feel bad about.
Yeah, it's probably more if you're
If you're doing that and then every moment that you're with your kids or most moments you're with your kids, you'll be distracted by your phone.
Yeah.
Like I would say I'm worse for that than you are.
My brain just works where I'm like, I randomly have this idea.
I gotta look into that for a second.
It's like something on the house that I want to alter this little thing and I'm
Like in the one bathroom on our main floor, we don't have a fan, like a bathroom fan for some reason.
So then yesterday all of a sudden we're talking about that and I'm immediately like, okay, let me look.
What kind of wall like are there wall-mounted fans that go into bathrooms like this one that will stop
snow in the winter and hot air from coming in in the summer and like all that stuff and so I go down a whole rabbit hole because I am quite positive I'm gonna forget about what I'm doing
Maybe that's because I use the phone too much that I feel like I won't remember things.
I don't know.
I feel like you definitely have a habit for that of like anything we're talking about.
Like I could bring up any topic and within seconds you're on your phone looking at
And I've had to call you out before to be like, I just want to talk to you about this.
I don't need you to research it right now.
Like we just want to have a conversation about this.
But I think it's just how your brain works.
You're like, I want to get the right answer.
I don't want to forget.
I don't want to lose this
Or like, even if it's just like a a fact about some, like, oh, whose voice is that?
And then all of a sudden you're like we're watching a cartoon and Scott's like, oh I recognize that voice.
Whose voice is it?
And all of a sudden you're on your
phone like I say it's this person's voice.
I don't hear it.
And then or even yesterday we're watching a movie and I hear a Kiwi or New Zealander accent, which
Jess and the kids can't tell the difference between a Kiwi accent and Australian one.
So then I was like, I have to confirm this that I'm correct than it was, in fact.
But then I think what happens is then you're like, I have to confirm this, which doesn't really matter in the grand scheme.
No, I know.
You get on your phone and now all of a sudden, oh I'm looking at the news or I'm on here, I'm looking oh now I'm on Amazon.
Like
Well, it's usually I end up on the 3D printing forums of Reddit.
Or your electronics forums.
We all have our crutch.
I love seeing projects that people are working on.
And like one right now I'm working on is creating a little uh custom small keyboard that has a bunch of programmed keys on it to do different things on my computer and I do feel this has to do with the way your brain works in terms of like
I don't know if it's ADHD or what, but like you hear about something, you have to research it immediately.
Without sometimes noticing the way that that interrupts the flow of a conversation or the way that that might make
your child feel who's sitting there and not because sometimes we don't know what you're researching.
We don't know what you're doing on your phone.
So for us, we're having a conversation.
For you, you're like, oh I'm researching this thing that you just mentioned and I'm gonna tell you about it.
But you don't say that.
So all I see is
I'm talking to you now, you're not looking at me.
Right.
And I think that's where sometimes our arguments come into play and the kids notice it too.
That's not to say what you're doing on your phone isn't
Like fine.
It's just sometimes I'm on there 24 seconds.
No, you're not.
But I'm picking up I'm picking on you.
But because I do the same thing, right?
We do.
We'll be in the middle of a conversation and be like, oh I have to check my DMs or something like that.
Oh and you get sucked in.
I was just talking to my brother about this the other day.
He was saying he also uses Instagram for work and he said that he noticed that he had literally just got his daughter out of the car seat, was like carrying her to the house, his baby was like in the car seat.
Carrier, he's carrying her to the house, he opens up his phone and he just opens Instagram, he just starts scrolling through, seeing who's liked his posts.
He's like
Why am I doing this right now?
And I'm like, yeah, that's how it gets here.
He's like, and then I'm like on Instagram scrolling, just walking to the house and I'm like, how did I even get here?
That is something we will cover later in this episode and then our next episode next week on AI
Okay.
But yeah, we him and I actually had that conversation when I was at their house the other day and we were just talking about how even
as intentional as you want to be.
Sometimes you just by default, open up your phone, all of a sudden you're on it and you don't even realize how long it's been, and then you you're like
What am I doing?
And so anyway, just to normalize that we all do this to different degrees and we all have our things.
Maybe your thing is researching.
random stuff and looking on 3D printing forums, my thing is checking my DMs and my comments and being on my Instagram.
Typically, you know, everyone has their thing, but it's tough out there.
I'm wondering if you've heard of the word technoference, because I came up in the research that I looked at.
And it's not just about being distracted, but it's about technology actively interfering in
our relationships.
I saw multiple references to this term technoference.
I've never heard it, but I can understand what it means.
So from your
clinical or therapist perspective, how do you see this technoference showing up in families you work with and what's the emotional toll it takes on parents who feel caught in this cycle?
You know where I see this come up the most is within couples.
Oh.
Like in terms of the family as a whole, like yes, it definitely is impacting the kids.
Maybe they're also on their own screens, so they're not seeing it as much, or they're just not naming it as much.
But I see this as the number one
thing couples are fighting about right now.
Like between the two.
Between the two of them.
No.
Because it's exactly what you and I were just starting the bicker about, right?
Like it's
Are we bickering?
Not bickering, but like it could be seen as that, you know, like I'm picking on you and then you're like, well, you do the same thing.
Yeah, right.
Right?
And what's the underlying thing?
Well we both want to feel seen and heard when we're having conversations with each other.
Yeah, right.
So when I feel like I'm trying to talk to you and you're distracted, I get annoyed because I'm like, listen to me.
But then you're like, wait, you just did the same thing to me 15 minutes ago when you weren't interested in the conversation I was trying to have with you
You didn't listen to me.
So then we almost got a sense of like, well, you do it to me all the time, so why can't I do it to you?
Yep.
And it becomes this like bitterness between the two of us where like if you're bored by what I'm trying to tell you, then you're like, Well, sh when she was bored by
Me telling her about my 3D printing, she was on her foncil.
I'm bored about her talking about a deep profound desire for longing and an ache of
hope that's within all of us that I was trying to tell you about the other day.
So I'm gonna be on my phone.
You know what I mean?
Like, not that we're this bad, but this is
the number one thing that couples are fighting about.
And it really the deeper thing is everyone wants to feel heard and seen when they're having a conversation with their partner.
And technoference is a great description of like
you're having a conversation like this and all of a sudden it's almost like a wall has gone up, whether or not you're still listening.
Oh, there was a lot of interesting stuff on this, honestly.
I found it quite interesting, mostly because for our work we use our devices quite a bit.
And that means that we are on them.
often and I feel like we are essentially trained, our brains are trained to use them at this point as we go through.
It's very interesting the science that's been done on it.
And one of the most
Interesting concepts to me from developmental psychology is the still-face experiment, where an infant becomes distressed when their parent suddenly becomes unresponsive.
Uh and the research suggested that a parent absorbed in their phone is creating a digital still face, so essentially doing the same thing where they're not giving any response to their child.
So
Can you break down for a listener's what is happening in a child's brain and body when they repeatedly experience this from their caregiver?
Because that's what can happen.
You're you're creating this still face.
Relationships are often you are looking into someone's eyes, you're seeing their body language, you're trying to gauge how they're thinking and what they're thinking about, what they think of you.
through not only their words but their facial expressions or the way their body is positioned, all that.
But when you have a still face, you're not doing any of that.
It's very unnerving for a child.
when their parent does not give them a response, right?
So this is where actually a lot of parents used to be taught to ignore their kids, right?
So that the behavior would stop
Because when you ignore your child by giving them that still-faced reaction, it is so uncomfortable for a child and they so badly want their parent to give them like this warm, nurturing, loving expression
that that's why the behavior would stop, right?
Because it is so distressing to be ignored.
But this is where it is coming into play with phones, technology use, because
We are actually not intentionally trying to ignore our children.
We might be in the room with them at the time, right?
But to our children, it's still coming across as being ignored, whether or not that is our intention, that is how it's being received
And it makes sense.
Like you think of, let's say I'm on my phone scrolling through my DMs and scrolling through Instagram and I'm seeing tragedy after tragedy.
I'm reading DMs that are like stressful, like
difficult things are happening.
My brain is in this world of what I'm seeing online.
And it's not in the world of my children are running around the sprinkler with their freezes in their hand.
Right?
Like it's so hard to even be
present in what's actually happening with our kids.
So then by the time our kid is saying, Mummy, Mummy, Mummy, and all she wants me to do is just like push her freezy up so she can finish eating it.
I've just consumed all this tr traumatic news and my brain is now in like fight or flight mode based on everything I just saw.
And it's really hard to even be present in the moment with her.
This is what's happening to us
Which has never happened before 'cause it's not like our parents had access to the news twenty four seven a day or six PM on weekdays or something, right?
You'd watch the news at that time if that's what you
There's like a ritual to it at least.
There's no ritual to it.
Right.
And if you don't know what's
Going on, then that's a problem.
Or even like the drama that I can bring up even in France.
Like I hear this all the time with moms, right?
It's like all of a sudden they they open up Instagram and they see a picture of all these moms hanging out together
at the park and they're at home with their kids, right?
Like you would never have known before having social media that all these moms were on a play date together and
you weren't invited or whatever.
And now it's hard to be present with your kids because you've just seen this or you're comparing yourself or you're feeling bad that you don't have friends like that.
So yeah, it's coming across as the still face because you're you're deeply locked into what you're seeing, so much so that it's hard to like shift your focus on the child that's in front of you.
I think.
I mean there's so many things that I'm noticing are just unhealthy about it.
Like to have access all the time to all of this information and people and everything.
I don't think we're meant to
know everything all the time.
I know.
At all hours of the day.
For someone like me, it is honestly and I think it has made
Maybe I I always had ADHD, I think, but I think it's made it way worse.
Totally.
Because it takes nothing for me to pull out my phone, have it in front of me, and be like, oh, I know I need this thing
Oh, like I'm looking right now.
I can see our grocery order is picked, so we can pick it up later.
Yeah.
Right?
So and I can see all these Slack messages from teammates and all that kind of stuff.
And before you know it, you're reading them all.
And I'm reading them all.
I have to respond to all of it.
I have to make decisions based on it.
Or even I am walking around the office or the house and I'm like, oh, it would be convenient if we had this.
It would make our lives a little bit
More efficient, easier, so we don't have to waste too much time doing this.
That's usually what I'm on my phone for.
But your brain is like your brain works so fast and the phone just like
I think enables that, right?
So it's like, oh I need this fan.
Okay.
There's nothing to inhibit me to slow me down.
I don't know.
It allows me to do things way faster, which is great, but then I think that
has an effect, a negative effect on other aspects of my life.
Yes.
And you're not alone.
Like that.
No, I think that's a a common problem.
Like I don't think
Uh even talking with friends, it's the same thing.
Yeah, it's so hard.
But the unintended consequence of that is like we're kind of in our own little bubble, I feel like, when we use our phones.
We're not always noticing the way that that is picked up by our children or by our spouse or partner or whoever it is.
And I think if we are the model for our kids and
I don't know.
The way I've been thinking about it recently, especially after doing some research on this last week, is that if our kids are older, do I want them to use their phone in the same way I'm using it?
Because
Let's just say if this is the way I'm using it, let's just assume that that's how they are also going to.
Right.
So then do you feel comfortable with that?
Am I going to feel comfortable with them using it in the same way?
And I'm
Likely not.
Right?
So it it's been starting to make me f think that way a little bit more.
Because I think that's sort of the reality.
Technology's not going to go away.
They're going to have phones or some variation of it by the time they get to the age where they can use it.
So do I want them using it in the same way I'm using it?
And if not, then maybe it's time for me to make a change.
Totally.
And now here's another thing, so we don't have to feel so guilty about being caught in this because I think it's easy to feel guilty and it makes sense and we should listen to that because that means
Maybe we can make a change.
But the research and I mean this is well known.
This isn't just a lack of willpower.
The research talked about this architecture of addiction, so infinite scrolling, notifications, reward loops, and all of them are purposefully designed to capture our attention and keep us
there for as long as possible.
And big companies, large corporations want us there as long as possible because that's how they make more and more money.
Which makes sense.
So how important is it for parents to stop blaming themselves and instead understand they're up against a powerful system?
And do you think shifting that mindset from I'm failing to um
potentially being manipulated, does that help?
I think it helps with the self-compassion.
Like for me.
I think when I started like just a personal note
really posting on our mama village or nurtured first at the time, I was unaware of how that was gonna affect me from an addiction level.
And I remember like just craving like I want to go on.
I want to see what the likes are.
I want to see what the comments are and like what the DMs are and like feeling this like
I have to look, I have to check all the time.
And I don't think at the time I could have identified what was actually going on.
Like I felt like, oh I just need to check.
Because I don't know what people are saying or whatever, but I think what was actually happening was I was forming this addictive pattern, right?
Of like I have to go on, I have to check, I have to see.
And it definitely disrupted my time with the kids at times because I get irritated or annoyed with them when they're asking me to hang out or play or whatever.
Over time, I've come to understand that that's what was happening and that platforms like Instagram are designed to make me addicted to them, right?
And then working on it, it's even worse
Like I'm not just scrolling, I'm also looking to see what people are saying and checking how posts are doing and whatever.
So I think over time, understanding that that is what that platform is meant to do.
has helped me be like, okay, you don't want to be addicted to this.
You need to have these boundaries in place because it's not healthy to check this all the time, to be on here all the time.
And that's helped me ch make some changes that were really essential.
So I think it is important to understand the way it impacts your brain so that you can put your own boundaries in place and not be on it all the time just because you feel like you should.
Well, and it's
Again, it's I think important to at least understand that these platforms are specifically designed to keep you on for as long as possible.
So even for me being on Reddit, it is specifically designed
to keep me there for as long as possible, distract me with all of these different, again, fun things.
I love building things.
I love building these little electronics projects, whatever, doing stuff for the house.
I can find it all
There and see people who have done it and what they went through to for their final solution.
And never ending.
And it's never ending, yeah.
I can find
millions of whatever different type of thing I want to 3D print.
Or maybe I'm troubleshooting an issue with my printer and trying to figure that out.
I can find it on there.
Or maybe I want to figure out some issue with our soffit on our house.
I can find it on there
Well, I think it's both there's a level of instant gratification.
So it immediately rewards you.
But then there's also like for you being on Instagram, there's that intermittent reinforcement, which
if I understand correctly, is the most powerful type of reinforcement.
So you don't get rewarded every time, but you get rewarded often enough that it drives you to do it more.
Right.
And it makes you be like, oh I want to write the next post
like see how that one does.
Like I wanna do more.
I want to do another story.
That has shifted for me a lot over time when I've come back to my values.
But like I
Just wanted to say that because I think we need to hear from people who've been there why you get in that situation where you're all of a sudden watching it all the time or you're stuck and you notice yourself.
for no good reason being on it, right?
Like it's designed to make you do that.
It's not just like you have no willpower.
It's literally a system designed to make you addicted
And that's why we want to model something different for our kids, because I would be devastated if all of our kids were addicted to their phones.
Our problem is that's already happening.
in the world, right?
And like for us, we didn't grow up with phones, right?
So we didn't get this till we were adults and we still got addicted.
Mm-hmm.
I know.
So that's the thing that really motivates me is like we didn't get phones, you and I got our phone first phones together, I think, in university.
Yeah, you had one that you could do T9 on like testing.
Yeah, and then remember I dropped it in a river and then I had it for like a couple months.
I accidentally fell out of my pocket and then I was like, eh, I don't need another phone.
And then I got one again in university and like it only did T9, like nothing else.
Remember it's a simple flip, that's what it was called.
Oh yeah.
Classic.
That thing lasted.
You can drive over that thing.
Yeah, I think it was Nokia, so of course it did.
Yeah, it was classic.
And we still got addicted.
Yep.
Right?
And we had all of our formative years without
these devices now.
Most of them, yeah.
We had the final part of our formative years.
Right.
But imagine our kids generation.
Why know
So that's just why it's so motivating for me to get a handle on my own use so that I can be the model I want for the kids.
Going back to what you said before about getting frustrated.
Like you were kind of addict you were addicted to insting on Instagram and then you'd get frustrated because the kids were interrupting you and everything and that made you maybe more stressed out.
This is a common
kind of feedback loop that in the research they actually described.
Okay.
So they talked about a parent is stressed.
So they turned to their phone for a quick escape
or post something on Instagram.
Yep.
But that technoference leads to more challenging behavior from their child, which in turn creates more stress for the parent.
And then you end up back on your phone because you're more stressed.
Yep.
Uh so I was gonna ask, have you seen this coping paradox in action?
But you have actually described that it's happened to you.
Yes.
So how can parents begin to recognize they're stuck in this cycle then?
First, I think we need to identify our own stress, right?
I was just talking about when I was addicted or whatever, the time when it was I was really stuck on it.
If I look at when that was in the grand scheme of my life, it was also after I just had our second baby and it was the pandemic.
So was I just addicted or was posting on Instagram at the time also an escape for me from the realities of a very difficult life?
Aaron Powell Well and on top of that, I was also
still allowed to travel at that time.
So I was gone for several months.
Yep.
For like six months or something like that afterwards, like back for weekends basically, but gone for six months.
So I was parenting on my own, didn't have other adults to talk to.
It was the pandemic.
I had a baby and a toddler.
And I think signing on to Instagram and being able to create posts, talk to other people
see things doing well or the account growing.
It was more than just addiction.
It was also an escape from the realities of life.
An escape that felt good, right?
And then when it didn't feel good, it felt awful
Like if something wasn't working or posts weren't doing well or people were mad at me for whatever reason people were mad at me that day.
I took it also personal.
Like all of it was personal.
And then of course that impacts the way
you treat your kids.
Because if you're all stressed about something going on online, that stress comes out in your parenting and now your kids misbehaving more.
Now you want the escape more.
So you go back online, but it doesn't resolve the issue of connection
Right.
So like what's the greater issue I think behind a lot of our screen use is a desire for connection with others, with ourselves.
I think we get a false sense of connection often on social media, right
A false sense of belonging, a false sense of connection.
Sometimes a true sense.
Like, don't get me wrong, social media has a lot of benefits to being on.
You can learn a lot, like there's a lot of pros, but they have to be within boundaries, right?
Like I know a lot of people too are like addicted to scrolling TikTok, following all these influencers on there, and like I totally get it.
But I think when it starts to impact your children's behavior, instead of
Being like I just want to scroll more just to numb myself out so I don't have to deal with this.
I think sometimes it is a call to action to be like this is not gonna get
better by me numbing myself out.
Do you think it's as easy as that though?
Like for a parent to recognize that their child's behavior is a result of them being on?
their phone or their computer?
It's not easy at all, I don't think.
Like I think we can recognize it, but that doesn't mean the solution is without work or something.
Oh my sorry, my original question was how can a parent recognize that they're in that pattern?
Oh I see.
Sorry.
I went off base here.
That's okay.
I mean, if you're listening, that's a good start to this episode.
And then ask yourself about your own screen use.
Like what function is it serving?
Is it serving the function of like you're paying your bills?
You have some entertainment on there, but mostly like it feels good.
the way you're using it or is it serving the function of like I don't want to cope with my life and I'm stressed out.
So I just go on TikTok and I scroll reels like just to help me zone out from my life.
You know, and maybe there's a time and place where screens can be a helpful tool and just zoning out for a little while.
Like I actually don't think it's all awful.
Sometimes your life is
really, really hard and you do want to just zone out for a little bit.
I don't think but is that the most healthy way to do it though?
No, like what I'm thinking is like you're comfy
Comfort show or something like that, right?
Like if we're really stressed and we go sit on the couch and we turn on the office, it's our comfort show, we watch it for like an hour before
before bed.
Like I don't see that as being like the worst thing that you can do.
Or you and I sit together and we watch like funny reels for a little while before we go to bed.
There's a connection piece there.
Right?
That's different to me, then I'm so stressed out, my kids are crying.
I don't want to participate in this.
So I'm gonna just
scroll through TikTok and and you notice yourself you're not on there for any purpose.
Like you're just literally on there just to scroll and it's like midday.
I'd ask yourself if that
actually serving you or what's the deeper thing?
Because I know for me when that was all going on, like the deeper thing was like really craving real connection and really craving like
feeling lonely and having a hard time.
Right.
And I don't think the answer was going to be found ever on social media.
The answer was actually going to be found in like real relationships and like seeing people and stuff.
Right.
So you have to ask yourself
How is this serving me or not?
And like really take some time to look inward at why you're on there, what you're doing, and if it's gonna help you be the parent you really want to be.
Yeah, okay.
And I think
Again, going back to recognizing if you're stuck in that cycle, seeing if there's any possibility maybe your child is acting out more or has been for a while, is there potentially any relation
between the way you're using your device and how they're acting.
Yeah.
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Okay, so we understand, I think, that it can be a problem.
I want to get into some solutions.
And the research is big on re-engineering your environment instead of relying on willpower, which I think it makes sense.
Maybe let's talk about what you did
than to change how you used Instagram in that time.
Like what changes did you make to your environment that helped you do or would you say it was strictly willpower that got you through being on there constantly?
I think it was a couple things.
I think first it was the knowledge that this isn't working for me and it's burning me out, right?
And it's not the model I want to be for my kids.
So first I kinda had to establish like why do I even want to make a change here?
Yeah, let's say we've done all that though.
I want to get into how do we actually so we've already talked about recognizing it's not good for us.
recognizing that it's not how we want our kids to do things.
What did you specifically do to help it be easier not to go on Instagram so often?
I think I had to the environmental I agree with
So not having my phone on me everywhere in the house that I went.
I think I used to like just have my phone in my pocket all the time.
I started to feel like I wanted to
almost like lose my phone or just like not have it on me all the time.
So I would just like leave it on the counter, kind of like flip it upside down, leave it on the counter
Another environmental thing that I have done that I know and irritates all my friends, but I have it on silent all the time or like do not disturb so that I don't get every single
vibration like every single notification come up for me because I would notice that like similar to what you talked about, as soon as I get one notification, I all of a sudden you're on and like check all the other notifications.
Like
So even still now, like I don't have notifications for email turned on.
I always have Do Not Disturb on.
Like I have a few people who can still get through, like you or babysitter or whatever.
But I found that even that helped me go on it much, much less because I wasn't constantly being notified about things that were happening.
Trying to place my phone somewhere that's not within reach.
So
For example, the dinner table, like I usually I'll leave my phone on the counter so that when we're having dinner as a family, it's not like right there for me to easily just like look at.
And I find when it is right there for me to easily look at, I do look at it.
Because again, will power alone's not enough
Like as soon as you're distracted by it, boom, you're on it looking through it, right?
Yep, 100%.
And then I think having these boundaries in my own head too of like, so I will be on it in front of the kids.
But I like to have a reason I'm on it.
So that if they say play with me or whatever, I can be like, you know what guys, I have to do 30 minutes of work right now.
Like I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna do work
Like I want to have a reason when they ask me why I'm on it.
And if they're like play with me and I don't actually have a valid reason that I'm on my phone, I will turn it off and I will go play with them.
Like so that's just a boundary I've set for myself
Because there is times they say that and I'm just literally looking at DMs or whatever.
Yeah.
Not actually doing anything super productive.
And I will be like, you know what?
You're right.
Put it down.
play with them.
So it's I think it's a mix of the environmental things, knowing my reasoning and actually doing the work of being like, you know what, I
I'd probably feel better if I played with you than if I scroll reels.
I think that makes sense sometimes.
I mean even me being on Reddit sometimes
Thinking, hmm, this doesn't make a ton of sense that I'm on here right now.
I already have five other projects I'm working on right now.
I don't know.
You don't need no ideas.
And those are the things and then I like try and think about too, like how would I feel if I was them right now?
Yep.
And that helps me be like, okay, I would probably hate that.
So let me put it down.
So
It's been a journey I think I've improved a ton.
And now that I've improved so much, it definitely motivates me to continue to not be on my phone.
Yeah, and I think
The big one for me is I get notifications for so many things.
And the problem is for everything that we do, even something as simple as the setup we have here in the podcast studio, I control it all off my phone.
Right, so I can control every device in here from my phone and then sometimes some of these apps you get notifications every day for different things.
And I've I will go through it every once in a while and turn off notifications, but there's still always something
something that's giving me notifications, then as soon as you look, you're in.
You're in, yeah.
So I think the notifications one for me, if I can just turn that off, that would actually be
the most beneficial thing.
But it's it's just hard because I have so many different things that I'm running on there and some of them I do need notifications for.
I know.
I do feel that helped me a ton when I just had my phone on silent all the time.
But the thing is that I also am now bad.
uh getting back to people.
Which whatever.
That's I feel like another mindset shift for me.
Maybe we need a landline.
I would love a landline.
People can just call you on the landline when you're home and available.
Otherwise To be honest, I have considered getting a landline
I think when our kids are like that age of babysitting.
That was a joke.
But yeah, we can do that.
Okay.
I actually think landlines are not a bad idea.
I actually think about that a lot in terms of like I take a little bit of time to get back to people.
When I do it's intentional.
But
My parents, like they used to yeah, they'd only really be on the phone at night after like we're all in bed and then they call someone to make a plan for the weekend, right?
Like we've lost that.
Now it's like it's almost someone texts you, it's like expected that I'm gonna get back to you within five minutes.
And I don't love that.
Like I don't want people to I think with you it's expected you get back maybe within the week.
Yeah, five to six.
Sometimes not even that.
But to be honest, I set that I tell my friends that like hey look
I'm not a quick texter.
Because one time a friend was like, is this personal?
Like why do you take so long to get back to me?
But I I think if you can be honest, like
Unless of course it's something that's pressing.
It's not a personal thing.
It's just I don't always get back to everybody right away.
I'm not that person.
I think
When I took that pressure off my plate to constantly get back to people as soon as I got a message, it helped a lot with the phone use.
But
That's also my personality compared to your personality that'd probably stress you out to have all those lingering texts.
Mm-hmm.
I like inbox zero.
Yeah, you like inbox zero
We're comfortable with different things.
I can't even look at Jess's phone or computer because you look at her mail app and it might be four or five thousand unread emails and that
Not anymore.
Now I have someone who helps me get the book.
Even your personal inbox though?
Oh no, not that.
Guarantee you.
It's in the thousands.
Oh yeah.
I don't even want to say it's all spam.
But Yeah, see I would be very quick to unsubscribe.
See, different personalities.
So you gotta figure out what's gonna work for you.
I mean I've also maybe it's something uh it would be good for me to be more comfortable not responding until later in the evening or something.
But that's just that's hard for me to do.
at this point.
Yeah, because like typically at night when I'm not working, like if I'm not working, I'll catch up on all my texts.
Like that's my time I do that.
Also just feel like we're not meant to be in the know of all these things at all times.
Like the news
Like I don't think we're meant to like read the news at all hours of the day, all the time.
It's good to be in the know, but I feel like now that we have the ability to know everything all the time, like it's almost a pressure that comes with it to like know and be passionate about everything all the time and like
I just feel like we're not meant to live like that.
It's too much.
Agreed.
Okay, let's go back to what you were saying before.
I do like the strategy of narrating your tech use out loud.
Because I think and it's actually shows up in the research too that that's a good way of doing it.
So why do you think this simple act is so powerful for modeling good digital citizenship?
And how does it change the experience for a child who is watching you
Potentially.
Yeah.
I think it's exactly what you and I were talking about before.
Like when we're having a conversation, you start researching something and like me and the kids don't know what you're doing on your phone, it makes it more likely to be frustrating for the person looking at you because they're like
What are you doing?
Like I thought we were having a conversation.
And in your head, you're like, this is part of our conversation.
Like I'm researching something that we're gonna talk about.
So I think as soon as you can narrate to your child and there's like a
reason why you're on there, then all of a sudden it's not just mom's on her phone because she doesn't want to play with me.
It's like, oh mom's on her phone because she has to pay her bill for the water or whatever it is, right?
Or she has to get back to my teacher about piano lessons at school or
When your children can know, then they can like can understand that you're not just sitting there trying to ignore them.
Right.
I think back to the still face experiment, like
And also a rule I try and have is if I hear my kids say once like mommy, like I try and instantly look up, make eye contact with them.
I'm not always perfect.
I actually do.
I know you don't think so.
I know it's
You don't think so?
I saw it this weekend that you did not do that.
One of the girls called for you like four times.
Yeah, see?
If I don't sometimes you don't hear it.
That's the problem.
I know they do that to you all the time too.
Oh, I'm not saying I don't, but I just think it's funny that you think that you're really good at that because I saw multiple situations where that did happen.
And here's the problem with this weekend.
I had something stuck in my head.
A situation that's happening, you know, in the world, in the news, it's weighing really heavy on me.
Every time I open social media, I'm reading about it.
And it distracted me from real life
And it is real life and it is important and it's okay that it was on my mind.
And I feel like I was way more locked into my phone than normal because that was on my mind, which then impacted the way I was
treating the kids.
So like that happened to me literally this weekend and it was kind of like just this situation that was happening online.
But it's such a balance, right?
Like
For me, part of that is my job that I need to talk about these things, I need to research, I need to understand.
And sometimes it comes at the cost of not hearing your kids.
So, hey, I'm far from perfect.
I'm trying, I'm intentionally trying, but that doesn't mean I do it right all the time.
Clearly.
Scott will let you know.
Oh, I just think it's funny because I noticed it a couple times this weekend.
Yeah.
Even with me you did it too.
I will be honest with that.
So I think
Extension of that.
I think, yeah, of course there's there are times where parents need to be on their phones.
Maybe it's for work or something like that.
So what's the difference between using a screen as a tool versus using it as a pacifier?
And how can parents use their devices in a way that feels intentional and maybe guilt-free?
I don't know if that's possible.
Maybe some people don't care, but
Let's say maybe guilt-free rather than reactive and or distracted.
And again, if we think about this in a way where we want to model to our kids how they should be using devices, I think.
A lot of parents, maybe people will be mad at me for saying this, but I think a lot of parents use screens as a pacifier for their child when they shouldn't also.
Yeah.
So what do you what do you have to say to that, Jessica?
I mean I think it's true.
We use that as a pacifier for ourselves and a lot of parents are like, here, here's the iPad with a YouTube show that's highly, highly stimulating that I know is gonna keep you watching it for longer.
That's the reality that we have right now.
And I think if we want to change it for our kids, and some people don't want to, right?
I don't think that's who's listening to the podcast.
But if we want to change our kids' addictions to screens, yeah first we first have to look inward and look at our own addiction to screen
And ask ourselves like how much time am I spending online that's simply just scrolling?
Like I'm not on there to learn, I'm not on there for any
function other than to just scroll endlessly, you know, or research endlessly, but like do I need to do this right now?
Or look at threads.
You know, whatever it is, like everyone has their vice, like I said.
For some people it's online gaming, that's not phones, but like they're f or they're playing games on their phone, you know, good old Candy Crush.
I'm just kidding.
But I don't do people still play Candy Crush?
Oh, I'm sure they do.
It just makes me laugh because it's like the first game and only game.
I never got into phone games, but you know, some people are doing that on their phones.
So like is it serving you?
Is it serving your family?
Or is it just numbing you?
And is there something greater?
Like maybe you need support, maybe you need therapy, maybe you're anxious or stressed or depressed and like
phones are being used as a way to not cope with realities that are going on in your life, right?
Or maybe the phone use is making you stressed out.
Like even for people who
are on the news so much.
Like I think some people they feel like they need to be in the know with the world so much that they read every single news article.
and like they're constantly reading the news.
I used to be like that too.
I used to be obsessive about looking at police reports in our area, right?
And I remember that?
I used to like
always read the news.
I would like read the police reports to see like, oh, you know, what kind of crime has happened here or whatever.
And I would be able to kind of say it under the guise of like
You know, I just want to make sure we're safe.
But it became compulsive and unhealthy to read that much of what's going on in the world, right?
So ask yourself how it's truly impacting you.
I think we need to do that if we don't want to pass that on to our kids.
Yeah.
Because also like we pass it on to our kids because like if we want to just scroll
TikTok or reels or whatever for hours.
Our kids aren't gonna let us do that unless they're also pacified.
So then we give them something so we can both just kinda veg out together.
Okay, once in a while, sure.
Like maybe you just wanna relax on a Sunday afternoon.
But if that's every day
I would argue that it's probably so addictive that it's likely never a good idea.
To give your child a show.
No, like to use
a phone and scrolling as a way to pacify yourself or a child, whatever.
But I think because it's so addictive, it's probably one of those things where it's just it's better that you just don't
Do it.
Which I mean I do it, so I can't say but I just think in general the recommendation is likely don't going to be whether that's realistic or not.
I don't know.
Well, because the dopamine hits that you're getting, like with reels especially, let's say your TikTok, it's like boom, boom, boom, boom, dopamine hit.
So much to the factory.
Because it the dopamine l decreases over time and then you have to do more to get that.
Yeah.
And then watching a TV show all of a sudden's not enough anymore.
Right?
You can't
Like how many of us can't watch TV?
Because TV show and Yeah, you have to have TV and reels.
Didn't I get mad at you the other night and like, can you choose one?
Because your reels are really loud and the TV was really loud and I was like
Yeah.
I don't need both on.
Well I feel like I was bored by whatever was on TV that you wanted to watch, so I just decided to do my own thing.
But I had it loud.
But you had it loud and I'm like, can we turn one of these off please?
Because like why do we need two screens on at full volume right now
You know, so I think part of it maybe is if you do have a relationship where you can feel safe to talk about these things like you've heard
throughout this episode, I call Scott out on stuff and he'll call me out on things.
And we tr really try hard not to get offended by each other when we do that, but we'll do that in the moment too
Yep.
Sometimes we get f offended by each other.
But I do think we're pretty good at holding each other accountable, knowing that these are the goals that we have for our kids.
Yeah, I think the key thing is we're not trying to dig at each other and
No, like sometimes we have little arguments about it, but for the most part I think if I'm like, hey Scott, I just want to talk.
Like, can you not be on your phone?
You're good.
Or if you're like Jess, I thought you weren't gonna have your phone at the dinner table, you should like put it away, right?
You do need that person to kind of hold you accountable.
Right.
Okay.
I I have a couple questions to wrap this up.
Uh we've talked about a lot of different strategies.
But I imagine a parent listening might still be feeling a mix of motivation and dread thinking, have I already messed up my kid?
Because I I don't know for sure, but I'm sure you hear that from parents.
What is
Let's say your single most important piece of advice, again the one thing, for the parent who wants to start making a change today, but is feeling overwhelmed by guilt.
You know I hate the one thing.
I know.
It's never one thing.
If someone's gonna start with anything, what should they be starting with?
I mean, instead of just guilting yourself to the point where now you feel even worse about yourself, just take your guilt as information that you're acting in a way that doesn't align with your values.
Ask yourself
Where you'd like to be, and maybe even write that down.
Like, how do I want to use my phone in front of my kids?
Like just make your goal clear for yourself and then see if there's one small change that you can make that's gonna help you move towards that
So whether it's turning off your notifications, having a certain spot on the counter where like your phone goes during dinner time.
I think if you can show to yourself and prove to yourself that you can make
one small change, that momentum can make it easier for you to build upon those small changes.
But start with something that feels actually realistic to prove to yourself that you can do it.
Yeah, probably dependent on
A person's personality too.
Like I would probably choose something that's maybe slightly unrealistic, just to push myself a little bit further to see how far I can go.
Do you have a goal that you want to do?
I mean yeah, I think one of the main ones is not being on Reddit as often, looking at 3D printing projects or electronics projects.
Yeah, that's probably good.
But the thing is I could foresee me just saying that and then I could justify home
projects fixing something in the bathroom or installing something new in the house, right?
So I just like to build things, so I always love looking at how other people are building things.
So
I don't think that's wrong.
Maybe your goal has to be like this is the time that I do that instead of just like any time that you feel like doing it.
Maybe there's like a boundary of when or
how maybe instead of on your phone it's like, hey, I'm gonna intentionally open up my computer with like a goal of this is what I'm gonna look for.
I don't know if there's like other boundaries.
Like maybe the problem with you is like
You literally could do that anytime, no matter what.
Pretty much.
Right?
So then that's just always an option.
Whereas if you had like a time boundary or like a lot of people say it is helpful to set the expectation for themselves to I'm the
do that type of thing on my computer instead.
The computer is still you're on a screen, but it's a little different than the phone.
It feels a little more intentional.
Maybe not to you.
You could probably be on your computer for hours too.
It could be.
Because then I have then I have my design software in front of me and then I open that up and then I'm designing things and look
I have to look up certain So I said I feel like for your brain who just loves information doing this kind of thing, screens are like it's great, a lot of benefits.
Which we didn't talk about, but like it's also pretty hard to set containers for yourself.
I feel like I'll have to think on that.
Yeah.
Come up with some.
Yeah.
Just think about it.
I think I definitely should, but I just don't know what it is right now.
Okay, so
final thing.
Ultimately I think the goal isn't to get rid of our phones, 'cause that is quite literally just not realistic, especially for the work we do and I'm sure a lot of other people.
But the goal is to be more present with our families.
or with friends, build those relationships.
Look people in the eyes when we're talking to them.
When families successfully shift their habits and reclaim that time, what's the biggest change that you've seen?
And what does that reclaimed connection actually look and feel like?
So if you, let's say have been working with couples, because that's who you say struggles with it the most.
When they are able to resolve this, what does that end up looking like for them?
I feel like their communication can improve a lot.
It's pretty hard to communicate with someone who's
Like you said, like the phone kind of feels like a wall, right?
And then we get defensive over it.
So I feel like communication can improve, just overall satisfaction in the relationship, because you're feeling seen, you're feeling heard, like and physically seen too.
Right.
A lot of the times like even like intimacy, like physical and emotional can improve because you don't have that thing blocking you all the time, right?
Like real connection, real conversation.
does a lot more for us than when we're both on our phones.
Yeah.
And then when we have those things as couples, partners, it's easier to parent your kids and be on the same page.
Right?
Like it's much harder to parent your p your kids when you guys are disagreeing or not communicating or on different pages or like not even talking about things that matter, like your values or whatever.
So I think in turn the kids feel it because you're improving your relationship.
The couple.
But then even if you decide, you know what, I'm not gonna use my phone during dinner time or something like that, or you you don't use
your phone as much around your kids.
I mean the research was suggesting that you'll end up seeing fewer challenging behaviors even from your kids because they'll feel like you're actually attending to their needs.
Totally, 'cause what are challenging behaviors often saying?
See me, hear me, love me.
You know, and if they feel like there's this wall between the two of you that's your phone, they're just gonna amp up the behavior in order to get that connection.
So it totally makes sense.
Okay.
Well this is good.
This was good.
I've been trying to write fewer questions, but it seems like that's not helping us shorten these episodes in any way, shape, or form.
To be honest, like, how do we have so much to say to each other all the time?
I have no idea.
It's good.
Maybe that's why you're on your phone so much, cause you're like, I'm sick of talking to this lady.
Maybe.
Well
Honestly, you usually don't even allow me to talk to you about any of these topics until we've actually had the So then after this.
I mean the the phone use thing we've talked about lots.
But some of the other ones
You don't really allow me to talk to you about them so much.
Yeah, true.
That's fair.
So now that's unlocked a new whole new conversation, yeah, for us.
Perfect.
Well, that's it.
It's been a slice.
Thanks so much for listening.
Thank you for listening.
We'll talk to you next time.
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
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