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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
You don't have a dad joke on the ready?
No, I should, I know.
What kind of dad are you?
I am very bad at dad jokes.
You need to have a sense of humor to be good at dad jokes.
Is oh so you're oh that that hurts, Jessica.
I'm sorry.
Can someone can one of you who's listening please Yeah it was actually.
Okay.
There it is.
There it is.
Okay.
I was not following along with that.
Yeah.
Someone maybe can come defend me because
This is my everyday life.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode
So Jessica, let's just get right into it, since your intro was no better than mine ever is.
So we received an email, and I may butcher this name, so I apologize if I did not pronounce it correctly.
Demelza
Who's a listener from Australia?
Is looking for guidance on how to manage her five-year-old son's use of what she calls bad language
She explains that her son, who is generally very expressive and playful with words, has started calling her dumb and stupid, telling her to shut up and experimenting with near-curse words.
She notes that this sometimes happens when he's upset after she's set a limit or boundary, but other times it seems playful, likely for the shock value and attention.
His nine-year-old sister also sometimes instigates it by calling him names.
So while Demelza is trying to understand the unmet need behind the behavior, she admitted that it deeply bothers her.
And she fears him being labeled as one of the those boys when he starts school next year.
So she's was seeking advice on a consistent approach
to let her son know this language is not okay.
Beautiful.
I think so many parents have been in her shoes.
I've heard this question countless times about the rude language and then your
Afraid that your child's gonna be that person who's rude and that's not who you are as parents.
You're like, how is this language even coming out of my child?
It's overwhelming, and I think we can make a really big deal of it.
Like it can feel like
this is gonna be my child forever.
They're gonna be this rude mean kid.
And what I really want parents to understand about this is typically I think she's right on it.
There's a shock value involved.
There's a level of playfulness and creativity involved.
And there's just a level of trying it out.
And seeing what happens, right?
Kids are naturally really curious.
And now I know these words are things I shouldn't really say.
So what happens?
What happens when I say it?
And then on the flip side, I think when the kids are angry and saying these words, they're really trying to just show you how mad they are.
Right.
So there's there is all sorts of reasons why kids say these types of words.
And as always, we just want to be curious about how it's serving your specific child, right?
But I I don't get too worried about it as a therapist
When I hear a parent like this talking and is concerned about her child, I don't think, oh man, your kid's gonna be brewed forever, you know?
I think
Your kids trying it out, trying to see what kind of reactions they can get.
And there's some very simple things that we can do to help them not use this rude language long term.
Yeah.
Well I mean her son is quite young too.
Yeah, and based on the research that I was finding on root language or swearing, it's considered to be developmental exploration.
So at a certain age kids start learning more words and try they make up words.
They try and see which words get, yeah, the shock value.
But then a lot of parents report children who seem to deliberately escalate their language to hurt others when they're angry.
Which I think is again, they're kind of exploring what reactions they get or they're feeling this feeling and they know that this is something that people don't really like.
So
They're just kind of using that.
And I think even a little deeper, it's like if your child is screaming like the F word at you or something, right?
That gets your attention right away.
Yeah.
And it signals to you just how mad they are.
So I do find that sometimes kids who feel like they're not being heard, maybe we're kind of ignoring them, like they're escalating
that they're not really feeling like they've got their parents to like truly understand how mad they are.
And then they drop an F bomb where they they say
something just wild like, I want you to die.
Well we have to respond to that, right?
Then our kid knows that we know how mad they are
So sometimes it's as simple as validating your child's feelings and getting on their level and talking to them before they escalate to that
point.
I have had a lot of success with parents just simply starting to notice this pattern of escalation and teaching parents that kids don't just start off with the F-bomb or saying that I want my mom to die.
Right.
Like usually there's little bids for your attention that are happening along the way.
And if we can address it earlier, then we don't even get to that point.
So I think that that's helpful for parents too, to try and notice the pattern in their child and know that usually just
Doesn't just start there.
That's that's when it's associated with anger.
Okay, I see.
Yeah, but I mean still they're gonna feel that anger regardless, aren't they?
And they might use that word just because again they're impulse control
They don't have much of it, so they know that this is what gets a rise out of someone and really shows.
So is it even realistic to
To say that you can stop it from happening?
I mean two things.
Sometimes you're just gonna have that angry outburst, and maybe that's just the words that your kid is using and you have to teach them new ways to be angry.
Right?
I
I share this quote and it's something like, stop teaching kids to not be angry and start teaching them how to be angry.
Right?
And so your child, the only way they might know how to be angry, and then we have to ask ourselves, well
Where did they learn this, right?
Is maybe through yelling and swearing.
That's how they know how to be angry.
So we have to teach them new ways.
But I do think that if you can start to notice the pattern of escalation in your child,
you can actually address the anger before it gets to that point.
Because almost every child has signs.
We just often miss them or we ignore them or we think it'll just go away, right?
So like pacing, fidgeting, getting up and down, starting to get antsy.
Now they're like starting to kind of be defiant.
They don't want to do what you're saying.
You know, all these little things
But if we ignore them, we don't be like, hey, hey, let's go for a walk.
Like, you know, let let's just move our bodies and get outside for a minute instead of sitting in this situation where they're getting really angry
If we don't get them out of it, we don't get them moving in a different way, we don't validate how they're feeling, we get to the explosion.
But I do think it's possible to help them with anger without them getting to that explosion every time.
Okay
I feel like you are thinking about this almost too logically.
Like we I think that was in our last episode we kind of debated.
I was being a little bit too logical that time.
I think in this case you might be too logical.
I just feel like kids, especially when they're younger, like maybe our eight-year-old might not do it now.
But I don't know, I could foresee a f
five year olds still doing it, even if we're doing all the things that you're saying.
Yeah.
Sometimes a meltdown will just happen.
Yeah.
I agree with you there.
I agree with you.
I think we can notice the signs and sometimes you can notice all the signs, but it's too late
Yeah.
Like their brain is already going into meltdown mode and this is happening.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I agree with you there.
Do you think there's ever like if there is there an age where swearing
being rude to others.
Is there a concerning age where it continues?
I think is it impacting their life and their ability to make friends and their ability to be in relationships with other people
and their ability to cope with their emotions, right?
Like I'm concerned about that.
Like I'm not that concerned about a three-year-old having a major tantrum.
Yeah, right?
No, right.
Well I think about not that Demelza's
nine year old is doing that, but she said she she was instigating it.
But let's say let's say in a different scenario, our eight-year-old is
doing those things.
And maybe not even to kids at school.
So they get along with kids at school no problem.
But as soon as they get home, they act out like that.
I could foresee that being a possibility.
Totally very common.
I don't know, as being rude and swearing and all that
More concerning when it's that age?
I would say yes.
Like the older your child gets, right?
And and kind of the behavior that we allow space for in the home, especially if it's hurting siblings
Right.
I think sometimes we're like, oh well it's all they only do it at home to and you know, to their siblings.
But the sibling relationships have a long term
impact on on a human being, right?
So I think if your child is nine or ten and they're swearing and yelling and
hurting their siblings when they're angry, then yeah, I that would be something I would want to look into and try and understand what's going on here and how can I teach them how to be angry in healthier ways.
Right.
So if I'm understanding correctly, what you're saying is it's more concerning in any situation, no matter the age, if it starts affecting their ability to regulate their own emotions.
As they get older especially.
But create relationships or be kind, let's say, to siblings or family members, that kind of stuff.
Yeah, because okay, let's say a three-year-old or a four-year-old even.
I think when our
one of our kids was four, her she would say what the heck all the time and I think she would just say stupid, that's stupid and stuff like that, right?
She's trying it out.
Okay.
I've heard my mom say what the heck and now I'm saying it
about everything, you know, and it's really it's little.
Like it's totally not the end of the world.
It didn't help that I was I would chuckle every time.
Well we would laugh a little bit.
Like and when she started one of them started saying stupid
And we would laugh because just coming out of their cute little mouth, like that's a funny thing.
But now we're reinforcing it and now they're saying it all the time, right?
And so the only way to really help them kind of stop saying these things, because we do want to help them develop social skills and help them understand what's actually acceptable to say to other people, that kind of thing, right?
We had to be like, hmm, maybe we can't say stupid all the time, right?
And then when they would say stupid, we'd be like, just try and keep it really boring, really neutral, not give it a lot of attention, and stop reinforcing it by giggling and laughing when they said it
Okay, over time they have stopped saying it because they realize that they've tried it out, doesn't get a big reaction anymore, and it's just not the way that we talk in our family, right?
So you and I also have to be mindful of our language around the kids.
If
we don't want them talking in this way.
That is challenging for me.
Yes, which is the same thing.
Even on this podcast, I sometimes let it slip.
Scott has a bit
more language than I do and I mean peop and people will say that too, like is it so wrong if my kids swear in my house?
Like I that's up to you and your family and what what you care about, right?
Like some parents really just don't care if their kids swear as long as they're not
being hurtful to other people.
Right.
And other parents just really don't like that.
And so that to me is a family value thing.
If your kid's not hurting anyone what they're swearing, right?
Right.
Well I mean that's at home, but then is it is it possible for children to differentiate between being home and at school or something or like on the playground or let's say we
Go to karate?
Not really, at the young ages, right?
So you just have to kind of know the way you talk around your kids is how they're gonna talk to others.
And so
Make sure that you're okay with that, right?
To me that's different.
Like your your kid, they accidentally go, oh shit, or something like that.
Because I've heard you say it a million times.
That's very different than intentionally saying hurtful, mean, or rude language to someone in order to get that person's reaction or to make
that person feel a certain way.
You know what I mean?
Like I feel like it's almost three categories here.
Like the one category is the way you swear or I occasionally swear I don't swear very much.
I wouldn't even be able to count on one hand the number of times I've heard you
I guess swearing is we're gonna talk about the like dropping an F-bomb, but like I I don't know, I say shit a lot
So I mean that's because we grew up in the country, that's not a swear word to swear word to people from where we live.
Anyway.
So there's that, just dropping like little swear words kind of in context at home.
Then there's I'm really angry and I'm using really intense language to let you know how mad I am.
And then there's
I'm being rude and I'm looking for a reaction from people.
Either I'm looking to be hurtful, I'm looking for them to give me a big reaction, I'm looking for them to get angry at me.
So I feel like there's three kind of paths and we first of all need to identify where a child falls.
If they're just using language kind of in their day-to-day life, they're just modeling what they see you do and they're just trying it on.
The words are new, they're interesting.
If they're really angry, okay, they need you to know how angry they are.
So then we're going to focus more on identifying that feeling underneath the word than getting so caught up in like, you can't say that and fueling the anger.
But if they're truly intentionally trying to be rude and hurt someone, that's probably where I'd actually be the most concerned of the three.
Okay.
Well, okay, so if we go back to this situation where
We have a four-year-old who says I hate you or you're dumb or you're stupid or something like that.
Is that something that as a parent you should be responding to versus some of the other things you kind of just ignore?
Or like how would you handle I mean I know we you don't love
being prescriptive and saying you have to do this always, you have to do that.
But I think it would be helpful to know is there a general rule of thumb for when as a parent I respond
Mm-hmm.
To the girls.
Yeah, so let's get curious.
So first off, I'd be asking this parent if they're sitting in front of me, when is this happening?
Okay.
Are they dysregulated?
Are they just calmly walking up to you and saying, I hate you?
Is it when they've had attention from you or is it when they've been alone for a long period of time?
How are you responding when they do this?
So I I kind of would need more information in order to know this is how you should respond, right?
I see.
So it's mostly if they've been rude or they've used
Whatever, use rude language.
You're mostly concerned about what happened prior to that event and try and figure out, okay, get curious about what was it exactly that led them to the point where they
Yeah, so imagine in your child that all the behavior, even the words that they're using, is a form of communication with you.
So to me, a child saying, I hate you is a form of communication, right?
And so what are they really trying to say?
They might be trying to say, I'm really mad at you right now.
Right.
And in which case I'd be like, oof, those are big words.
I hear you.
You're really mad at me right now and I love you and I'm here for you and we're gonna work it out.
I would support them with the anger and then later when they're calm, totally not in that situation at all, I'd be like, hey.
Uh you've been saying I hate you.
Those are hurtful words.
You know, I I know you don't hate mom.
I know you don't hate me.
So let's try and think of some different words you can say to tell me how mad you are.
Yep.
That's what I would do over and over with a child who's saying I hate you when they're angry
Yeah.
Now if a child if if you're just like breastfeeding your baby, let's say, and everyone's calm and your four-year-old calmly walks up to you and says, I hate you.
Or I hate the baby.
Or I hate the baby.
Okay, well now we're dealing with something different.
What what's going on?
Are they trying to push you away?
Are they feeling some separation between you and them?
And often I hate you in that context.
means I need you.
Yeah.
I love you and I need you, but you're not giving me attention.
So okay so therefore I hate you.
And again, it's it's your child's way of trying to
Communicate, I actually need you to know how much I don't hate you, and I need you, but I need to I'm just wondering if I say this, will you just pull away from me
Yep.
So in that situation, I would say to my child, I love you so much.
There's nothing you could ever say to me that would change that, and see how they respond to that.
And so I think
In our responses, we often get so caught up in the words that we miss the meaning, like the tr the deeper meaning behind it.
And then that's where we get into conflict with our kids because we focus so much on
Why would you say you hate mommy ear?
You can't say that that's mean, you know, go sit and time out.
Well now let's say it's a s meanwhile that's giving them a bunch of attention
Which is what they're craving anyway.
Yeah, it's giving them a bunch of attention, which is what they're craving, and now they know, oh, and I say I hate you, it's a surefire way to get my mom's connection.
I see.
I think that makes sense.
What I was also finding in the research was that verbal aggression, so when they're like when a child is angry, actually is it represents a developmental progress or milestone from physical aggression.
So when kids are really little
They hit.
All their body.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They throw some a toy or something like that.
But I was finding it's actually a developmental milestone for them to use verbal aggression instead of physical aggression.
So at let's say four or five years old, this is actually something, from what I'm s understanding at least, that you should almost be like kind of proud of that they've made it to that step.
Not that you want them to continue doing that, but and correct me if I'm wrong here
They're at the point where you can actually start teaching them the words that they can use to represent the feelings that they have without using root language.
But it's kind of like the beginning stages of that
So not necessarily starting to say that, but that's the point at which it may start to click for them.
Yeah, I actually I think that is so important to know.
It reminds me of
lying.
We did an episode on lying, but it's like lying is a developmental milestone.
Verbal aggression, rudeness is a developmental milestone as well.
So it's like congratulations through childhood and a developmental milestone.
So let's not freak out about it but let's a little bit like I I realize that in theory that makes sense, but that's not something I've ever put
Two and two together.
Yeah, I've never put that together, like, oh yeah, this actually makes sense that they would be transitioning from this to now like hitting and throwing things to now they might start throwing and hitting things less and now start using their words more to
do the same kind of thing.
Well I actually noticed this recently in our five year old.
Yeah.
And so sometimes with that girl.
Like she used to be very physical in her aggression.
But it's it
She hasn't really hit or had done anything like that in a while.
But the other day she wanted me to buy her this pair of shoes and and I wasn't about to do that
Because we weren't at the store for shoes, which I told her.
And they were way too small.
It was just like so many things.
Yeah, they're like three sizes too small.
She was like They were pretty though.
Yeah, her brain was just absolutely stock
on I need to buy this sparkly pair of shoes that's three sizes too small and but my feet squeezed into them is like an evil stepsister on Cinderella.
Like anyway.
And I'm like, hun, we're at the store for food, returning one thing, and we're going home.
That's our plan.
The plan is not to buy shoes today.
And she's lays on the floor and goes, Well, if you don't buy me these shoes, then I'm never coming back shopping with you ever again.
You're the worst mommy in the whole world
What kind of mommy doesn't buy her kids shoes?
And like there's a million people listening, right?
She's got a million shoes at home.
She gets hand-me-downs from her older cousin and there's like shoes everywhere.
Yeah.
Anyway, so I just hold I'm heaving my boundary, like, no, we're not buying shoes today and I understand that that makes you upset.
You're really angry.
I'm not the worst mom, and we're gonna keep going.
We're gonna go home.
Let's have a nice rest of our trip.
I'm never going to the grocery store with you ever again.
And she started using her words instead of hitting me, which she used to do.
Yeah, she used to do that all the time.
She used to just hit me.
But now she and she's her body is calm, but she's using her words against me.
And I actually, in my own head
celebrated it a little bit.
And I was like, an onlooker might see this child as manipulative.
I am seeing this child as trying out what can I say to
get someone to do what I want them to do in this situation, how closely will my mom hold this boundary?
Like can I trust that she's gonna hold this boundary?
Can I trust in her leadership right now?
And the ability to be able to think, if I say this, it would impact someone in this way.
And it would make them feel guilt.
And that guilt would make them want to buy these shoes for me.
That is so many thought processes going on at the same time, right?
There's a lot of mixed feelings going on there.
Yeah, they've developed enough of their brain to then be able to start building those connections, which is pretty
I don't know.
I think it's pretty neat actually with her especially because she was more physical than our oldest.
Yeah.
And I think as parents we immediately were like, oh child's manipulative, they're bad, they're lying to me.
I think we have to see it's like, okay, this is a new skill they're trying on, right?
And the the question isn't is my child bad and manipulative?
The question is how can I teach my child now to use this new skill in a way that's gonna serve them and is actually healthy.
versus using it to manipulate people.
But she has to try it out first and see where the boundary is, right?
So in this situation, the best thing I could do was hold my boundary.
Which was I'm not buying these shoes and then take her out of the store.
She was really mad at me.
I remember.
Yeah.
And my older daughter, our older daughters was staring at us like
Holy, okay, this is so embarrassing.
She's very embarrassed by the whole thing.
Oh yeah.
I didn't even know that, actually.
She just like has a side eye and like you know scoots away.
She's like, not with me
And uh anyway, we get in the van and you know, I just usually in a situation like that, I'm holding my boundary.
We get in the van, I'll put on some calming music.
And then usually always like a couple minutes later, she'll be like, hmm, I guess you're not like the worst mom.
I'd probably go back to the grocery store with you.
And then I'll be like, okay, I think now we're ready to talk.
And then I coach her through, this is what you were feeling.
Do I have that right?
Okay, this is what you said to me.
Now can you see how that that doesn't work for mom?
What could we say next time and what could we do different next time?
And it is that coaching process after
that's gonna help her brain learn how to navigate those difficult situations.
And I think we forget about the coaching process again with the rude language.
Like we just get so caught up in how do I punish them or how do I
What kind of consequence should they have for being rude to me in the store?
Or just I think even more simply, I think parents just want to stop it.
Yeah, we just want to stop it.
So it's not even thinking like punishing or whatever, any of that stuff.
I just think a lot of parents
literally just want to stop the language or stop the hurtful things their kids are saying, which makes sense to me.
None of us want to raise a manipulative, hurtful child.
I think again.
I mean you're a great example.
You've been teaching me about the developmental stages.
I think this is something that, again, even something as simple as going from physical aggression to verbal aggression being a developmental milestone or like
a process that they develop.
I don't think that's common know like it makes sense.
It makes a ton of sense, but I don't think it's common knowledge enough that parents would
I don't know, it's basically through things like this or you on Instagram teaching about it.
I like I don't know how How else would we know this, right?
And then we have our own fears.
Like I was talking to someone literally yesterday who's like, is my kid gonna be
the bad, rude kid forever, you know, because we have our own fears that come into it.
Especially I think a lot of I don't want to be stereotypical, but I feel like a lot of dads and their sons, like they don't want their sons, they're fearful, or even moms and their sons
that they're gonna be these mean boys, right?
They they don't wanna be the ones raising the boys who end up being mean or hurtful, right?
then they get really scared.
And I think out of our own fear sometimes then we're like, we have to shut this down.
Like and we can't see it for what it really is.
And we almost see our little five year old children and we imagine that they're gonna be exactly this way at fifteen.
And that's really scary and overwhelming.
And I think it causes us to really react.
Yes.
Right?
And that reaction, the attention we give it can actually fuel it more.
So we I think we just get really stuck.
Yeah
That's kind of like I mean when you're learning to drive for the first time or you're learning to ride a a motorcycle or something like that.
You're supposed to look where you want to go.
And
You have to look where you want to go if you're trying to avoid something too.
You don't look at the thing you're trying to avoid because you're more likely to actually hit the thing that you are trying to avoid.
So I
I've used that a lot in my mind for I don't know for a lot of different things.
I remember learning that when we were in driver's ed and thinking like this can apply to a lot of things in life.
If you focus so much
time and attention on the thing that you don't like, it is likely to amplify that thing.
You're likely to steer right into the thing you don't like.
and potentially make it worse.
I feel like that's a actually such a beautiful metaphor for the discipline in general.
I think so often like the rudeness is a great example.
Like we're like
I don't want my kids to be rude.
They're mean.
And then we start labeling them, right?
Like, ah, you're you're a meanie.
You're being mean.
You're being rude
So much so that they're like, oh, I guess that's my identity.
I guess that's who I am.
I'm the mean kid in the family.
And I a lot of families, if you look at family structures, like you see the black sheep.
you know, in the family, there's the one kid who just ends up being the one who swears more or who's mean or aggressive or rude, and you find out that often they got that label really early on.
Yeah
And we want to be so mindful of that.
Like with our kids, and I coach parents with this too, you want to be mindful of the labels you give them.
So when our child
Is saying something manipulative like she was in that grocery store, I'm not saying you're being manipulative.
I'm saying you're a good kid and I know you love me.
So I'm speaking what's true, right?
I know you love me.
I know you're gonna go grocery shopping with me again, for sure.
You love grocery shopping with me.
And you had a really hard time in the store today.
Your brain got super stuck.
So let's talk about it.
Do you like their external mantra generator or something?
Yeah, because I know that the words I speak over them become the thoughts they have about themselves.
So if I come into that exact same scenario and I say, you were being manipulative and mean and rude in the store today.
You're being mean, you're meanie, and I don't want you to be like that.
Like what how does that help her internal narrative of who she is if she hears that repeatedly, right?
So instead I would I would speak the truth that you want your children to believe about themselves over them
Right?
You're a good kid.
You're having a hard time today.
Your brain got stuck.
I use that language a lot when the kids get mad because you see it in their eyes, right?
My brain's stuck.
And then they it's funny how the older two now
Can verbalize those things for themselves too.
I think that's quite funny and cute.
Yeah.
My brain's so stuck on the shoes, Mom.
I'm so thankful they don't have my internal brain.
What's your internal brain?
I'm not allowed to make mistakes.
You want to go deeper on that?
I think what you're saying though is very much it can be applied to more than just rude rude language.
Yeah.
It applies in just the way we view our children and our children feel that.
If they know that their parents view them as good human beings who sometimes make mistakes, but mostly have really good intentions and who love
you and love their siblings and love other people, that will become what they believe about themselves.
I always laugh a little bit because it's like
I mean we don't do Santa, we've done a whole episode on that.
But if you can get your kids to believe in something like Santa Claus, right?
Like a lot of kids just fully believe that this man in a red suit comes down their chimney and brings some presents every year
And you can get your kids to believe in like the Easter bunny and all these things.
Think about how like wild and far-fetched those things are.
So you have the power to make them believe that.
Imagine what the power that you have
over what they could believe about themselves.
Yeah.
And how much they trust you.
Like if they trust you so much that they trust that when you say a
Big fat man in a red suit comes down the chimney and brings you presents and they're like, okay, mommy, if you say that's true, like I believe you, then how impactful can your words be when you say
You're a good kid and you love other people and you love me and you just were having a hard time today and you don't want to talk like that.
Like I just think it's really profound and and so we want to use their trust in us
for good and and for truth and for, you know, saying loving things.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
Mm-hmm.
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When it comes to sibling influence on language.
I think that's that's a big one.
'Cause I mean, older kids I mean our oldest maybe wouldn't appreciate it so much.
She doesn't love even when we say, Oh shit, and when we like hurt ourselves or something.
But I could just foresee that
happening, maybe between the middle and youngest, I don't know.
Totally.
Uh but articles suggest addressing the older child without shaming.
But how would you handle a situation where, let's say, our five-year-old
is systematically teaching our three-year-old to swear or use cruel language.
Do any situations require a bit stronger intervention?
Like realistically speaking?
Yeah, I think
I mean you probably want to start with pulling them aside.
Yeah, I'm I'm picturing this probably would more so happen with like, let's say you have a nine-year-old and a
four year old, right?
And the nine-year-old's picked up all this language at school and now they're saying it at home.
Yeah, maybe five and three is not realistic.
But yes.
So I would probably start just with having a conversation, right?
Pouring back into the relationship with the nine year old
And saying, hey, I know you hear this at school and you kind of talk like this at school, you know, and we can talk about how appropriate that is, but also your little brother is five.
And it's not appropriate for you to be talking to him in that way.
He's still really little.
And we just need to be mindful of the way we talk around him.
Like I think it's okay to have that kind of conversation.
And then even as a parent, if you start to notice that your older kids teaching the younger kids stuff that they really shouldn't know, I would just intervene and be like, okay, hey, why don't we go for a walk?
Like you and the nine-year-old, like let's go upstairs to your room or something like that and let's just
Let's have a quick chat and then it's a reminder, right?
But I think we need to remember that parental intervention there is still important.
I can't really expect even a nine-year-old because like I think at the nine-year-old stage
You're still curious, right?
Like you're trying to figure out what you think about these things and you might want to process it with your brother who you love, but you kind of forget that he's five.
Yeah
I think about my brother.
We probably taught him like so many things.
Because I'm the oldest, right?
And I remember my friends and I, like he would just be sitting there listening to everything that we said, right?
Like he probably heard lots of things
just because we were older and he was around.
So it's important to just be mindful of that.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
What about
modeling calm responses.
Because we've we've been talking about that, how you're supposed to be the model for them.
But even in situations where, let's say your child says something hurtful.
Like, is it ever acceptable to have an authentic emotional response to what they've said?
Like, let's say one of the girls called you a hurtful name
Isn't it a little more honest and instructive for the parent to say that hurt my feelings?
Rather than to have therapeutic neutrality?
I don't know.
I'm really on the fence about this one, to be honest.
I'm kind of up two minds.
I think as soon as we start letting our kids know repeatedly that they can hurt our feelings, it almost
And I'll probably get flack for this, but almost diminishes our leadership position a little bit to be like I'm so fragile that you saying in the heat of the moment that you hate me makes me feel like I'm gonna cry
That's like, in my opinion, more of our own stuff that we have to work through as parents because we know our kids don't hate us.
You know, it like it may be different if like your 15-year-old is like, mom, I really hate you.
You know, and it's like
so serious.
But if your five year old screaming I hate you because you won't buy them the shoes that they want, I think as parents we need to do our own work to know that they don't hate us.
They're just having a hard time right now.
And I think as soon as we start making a big deal of that, like, oh, you really hurt mommy's feelings.
Like, and of course, like we're allowed to have our own authentic reactions and we talk about that with the adults in our life, like how we felt in that moment
But I think it can show kids like how much power they can hold over us.
And I think that's maybe like too much responsibility for kids to have.
I don't know.
But on the flip side, like I do understand sometimes having an authentic reaction can be okay.
But I've seen it where it's like parents like a little too much tell their kids how their actions make them feel, to the point where we're saying like
you're solely responsible for making me not get dysregulated.
Whereas I would rather my kids are just like, oh, mom's not that face because she knows I don't actually hate her.
So
Like why am I bothering saying this?
Because she sees right through me.
She knows that I love her.
I'm just having a hard time.
Yep.
Does that make sense?
I think it does just wonder in reality if that's as easy
It's totally not easy.
Parents get very triggered by these words and it makes sense, right?
Because we are very fearful of our child's rejection
Yeah.
We want our kids to love us.
These words are probably some of the most triggering things that parents tell me about.
And that's why I think it's really important that parents know that the majority of the time it
does not mean that your child actually hates you.
It means that they actually love you and they need you and they're they're seeking your support and your guidance through it.
And of course sometimes you'll have just human emotional reactions.
Like I'm really not worried about occasionally your
It's more if it's like continual and repeated that you're So imagine like every single time my daughter says you're the baddest mommy in the world, I'm like, I am?
If you really think that, like, oh, that really hurts my feelings when you say that.
Yeah, right.
Right?
Then all of a sudden it's like, oh, oh, whoa, mom can't handle this meltdown.
Okay.
Like
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
But if like Yeah, I can see that.
That's a little less that's not as healthy.
Especially because you know that they're little.
They don't really mean that.
They're just using words that they know are gonna get attention and kind of dig a little bit
Yeah, it's like so now like that is something our five year old will say to me, You're the baddest mommy.
She said that 'cause I said it's time for bed and she's like, You're the baddest mommy in the world.
So in one situation I could be like, Oh, you really think that, hon?
Oh, that makes me so sad.
And another situation would be like, I'm not the baddest mom.
I'm trying to help you go to bed.
That's what good moms do.
Okay, let's go to bed.
You know, and then we just don't make it a big deal and she learns I can handle it.
So yeah.
Always nuance, but
Uh yeah, I think some parents might struggle with that a bit.
I feel like the two of us for the most part, what our kids say doesn't really affect
us too much.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess it's different if your child's like genuinely coming to you being like, I don't think you're a very good mommy.
Yeah.
Then you don't ignore it.
Like they're actually telling you something.
Yeah, but I don't I have a hard time seeing how a four or five year old, whatever, like whatever, able to think that deeply enough.
Yeah
But you know, you can take that serious like and and ask yourself if there's any truth to it.
But I'd say for the most part, the littler kids, like it's just about
Telling you they have a big feeling.
Yeah, and I mean again if we go back to the the ultimate way to parent is to have a very close connected relationship with them.
Mm-hmm.
You might pick up on that stuff anyway
Yeah, exactly.
Just because you're constantly trying to get curious about them.
More on that though, so the research was recommending
Explaining why words are hurtful to build empathy so that at least kids know why the words are helpful.
So
You can explain like what you said this is how I would imagine it's acceptable.
You can tell me if I'm right or wrong.
But let's say like one of our daughters says, Dad, you're stupid, or something like that.
I can say, we don't say that in our house.
That's not a very nice thing to say to someone else.
And let me explain why.
To some people
You whatever and just go on to not necessarily about me and why it hurts my feelings or anything like that, but more just about this is what that word you're saying actually means.
And is that actually what you're hoping to mean by what you said?
Because I think a lot of kids just they know certain words.
Yeah.
They just hur hear things and they know certain words are not very nice, mostly because of the reaction, not because they actually understand the underlying meaning behind it
Totally.
I think that's totally fine, especially if they're just trying it out, right?
They're just like, huh, I wonder what would happen if I called dad stupid.
Right?
And then in a calm moment you just explain what it means.
And sometimes for kids are like, oh, I didn't know that.
Okay
So how do how do we teach though the impact of the words that we're using and what their meaning is without potentially inadvertently providing
a roadmap for emotional targeting.
Right?
Because I think we've heard it before that some parents are like, my kid is like a narcissist or something, or my kid is a a psychopath or whatever, because they've done or said certain things.
Well, and bullies understand emotions probably more than anyone else, right?
So in bullying prevention, we're often like, tell the bully that they're hurting your feelings and walk away.
It's like
A bully fully knows that they're hurting your feelings.
That's why they're saying it.
Like you don't need to tell them.
That just makes it worse.
But I think for the most part, it with
within the structure of a connected, healthy parent-child relationship, explaining these things is not gonna make your child a narcissist, right?
Or a sociopath, right?
So again this is not necessarily what I think.
I just I know that you've been asked that question before.
So it's first about the foundation.
Like do you have that relationship foundation, right?
And that's the most important thing.
If we have that, then our child isn't looking for these emotional reactions from
other people, right?
So that's the first thing.
And I think through that connected relationship, then you can have these discussions with your children.
And
they will probably be received pretty well.
And kids actually do need to know what certain words mean, right?
If they don't know, then they're gonna just keep trying it out
to see what happens when I say these words and why do people give me funny looks and why do they get a big reaction, right?
Yeah.
But if they know, okay, well now they have the info.
I feel like we've missed one really important piece and we can talk about it just briefly.
I know this episode's long.
I have been reading a lot of research lately on ADHD, neurodiversity, the way that the the ADHD brain works
And I'm noticing a pattern in my practice of a lot of kids with ADHD engaging in rude language or like picking fights in like rude ways.
And what I'm learning is that sometimes that is actually a way to kind of get their
That dopamine hit or that literally just thinking that as we were talking about this.
Yeah.
Just like as a bully
I feel like that emotional reaction is giving you that hit that you need.
And it's just it's something that a need in their brain that's not being met.
And they're by being rude or being mean to someone else
And seeing that emotional reaction, it gives that like satisfying feeling.
And that's kind of it's reinforcing itself a bit.
Yeah, so that's the other reason we haven't talked about that kids can be rude is it can yeah, it can get that dopamine hit that they're looking for or like that reaction that they're looking for.
And often kids with ADHD or other neurodiversity
will actually start fights.
Not that they're intentionally realizing this is why, but because their brain is like, I need this.
Like I need this excitement or this interaction.
And so
And those kids, you can talk to them till you're blue in the face about language and how it impacts people, and that's not very nice, and you can't say that.
But unless they find a new way to get that need met, they're gonna up the ante.
And so for those kids, you're gonna see more swearing, you're gonna see more rude behavior, you're gonna see yelling out stupid impulsively, because they're also
ADHD kids are also impulsive.
So you're gonna see all those things come out.
And I think a lot of the approaches that we discussed today might not be as effective if you're also dealing with a child who needs to get
that part of their brain activated and they've learned that they can get it activated this way.
Yep, that completely makes sense to me.
Yeah, as we were talking, that was just in my head, like, huh
As someone who now knows that I have ADHD, it makes sense that let's say I wasn't the bully, but I was definitely one that went to pick fights.
Yeah.
In especially in grade school.
So I just find that just like realizing a little bit more about myself as we were talking.
I was all I was working with someone recently and their kid is a just a genuine, beautiful, like amazing child
And they'll pick fights in this way and they have ADHD.
And so we've been talking about the ADHD brain and how it works and why picking fights or being rude or like just yelling
Penis out super loud in the middle of class is like very Oh, I used to play that game allowed my buttons.
Right?
And then I was thinking about little Scott and like
Scott's report cards, which I'll say.
Scott would do better if he m minded his own business and focused on his schoolwork.
It was funny because it's not like any of them were that bad.
Like they were all I had
pretty decent grades.
But it was just pretty much throughout.
If Scott would focus on the work, he would do amazing and c
Yeah.
Oh it's uh
I find that's quite funny.
Maybe we do our next episode on this, but I find the research on ADHD in kids is just like so fascinating to me.
Especially working with so many kids like this and knowing like you and myself and just seeing like, oh my goodness, that's why this.
That's why for a kid with ADHD, countless discussions on how this word is not very nice isn't doing anything, right?
I just thought at the end of it all we should talk about that.
Because if that's your kid, then maybe there's
Like we need to find different ways for them to get that need met.
And that's gonna be what helps you.
I think that's quite interesting.
I feel like this is a good place to end this episode.
I feel like we've talked a lot about this.
Hopefully Demelza got something out of this.
This was valuable.
This is a fun topic.
I really liked it.
Yeah, it's quite interesting.
It I'm finding more and more as I'm looking at the research and the studies that have been done and the articles out there.
I am definitely seeing the patterns in everything now.
I feel like I had a very, very high-level view.
So I could like.
understood sort of at a broad level, but now I'm starting to understand a little bit more deeply and it you have to admit it's pretty fascinating.
It is fascinating.
Yeah.
I would love to get more into the actual brain
science specifically at some point.
But I don't know that I will ever be able to be a good expert on it.
So maybe we'll have to have someone else on to talk about that.
Yeah.
I agree.
It's like I've been doing this for
over a decade and it's just like I just never stop being fascinated with this and wanting to talk about it.
It's just so interesting.
to me and I love that we are able together to build these conversations and the people listening can get excited and find this interesting too
Yeah.
Well and actually the more I'm learning, the more I think I said this in one of our past like recent episodes.
Just understanding a bit of child development helps you understand
your child and treat them so much differently than you otherwi like otherwise I would.
Just based on how I grew up, I think I would be raising our kids very differently if it wasn't for you explaining a lot of this to me and now even
Learning a lot of the actual research behind it.
It's been quite eye-opening.
Yeah.
I know eye-opening and it just it makes me want everyone to have this information because it just thinks
It's empowering and it actually helps Obviously it is.
It helps you see your job as a parent of like how important it is and how wise your children are and how it's like it's not just like this old school parenting where it's like the parents the boss and the child just
you know, be seen and not heard or like doesn't know anything or whatever.
Like it's this relationship we're building together and it's just I don't know, it's really beautiful.
So
Mm-hmm.
That's great.
Well, it's been a slice.
It's been a slice.
Alright, we'll talk to you next week.
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