Joe Mantegna

Show Notes

Intro: Mummies vs. Zombies, cancer doulas
Let Me Run This By You: Gina has projection issues.
Interview: We talk to Joe Mantegna about Morton College, The Goodman School of Drama, Arthur Lessac, starting his career with HAIR, Dr. Charles McGaw, The Shubert Theater, Morton West High School, André De Shields, Jonathan Banks, Carrie Snodgrass, his close relationship with Bella Itkin, Geraldine Page, Eugenie Leontovich, Patrick Henry, playing Judas in Godspell, Organic Theater,  the Grease premiere at Kingston Mines theater, Jack Wallace, Medusa Challenger,  Stuart Gordon, the sci-fi play Warp!, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Dennis Franz,  John Heard, Richard Gilliland, Meshach Taylor,  The Wonderful Ice Cream Suit, Esai Morales, Edward James Olmos,  Bleacher Bums, Robert Smigel, winning the Tony, Mandy Patinkin, his approach to ensemble acting, breaking news about  Criminal Minds!, House of Games, dealing with David Mamet's language, American Buffalo, Sexual Perversity in Chicago, A Life in the Theatre, William H. Macy, going up on his lines on opening night of Glengarry Glen Ross, Lindsay Crause, Nan Cibula-Jenkins, Vincent Gardenia, and why JOE MANTEGNA PREFERS TALKING TO US OVER THE NEW YORK TIMES! Hopefully, next time we'll get into the Jim Clemente of it all, about Southern Italian miners migrating to the American Southwest, and Wait Until Spring Bandini
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina <inaudible>. We went to theater school together. We

1 (13s):
Survived it, but we

2 (14s):
Didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We

1 (21s):
Survived theater school and you will

2 (23s):
Too. Are we famous yet? Which is the horrible,

1 (32s):
Where's their costume. What did she wear? Who was she?

2 (35s):
Zombie cheerleader.

1 (36s):
Love it. Love it. Especially since I'm I'm I'm watching glee. I'm I'm for the first time. And there's the, all about the cheerleaders there. Zombie cheerleader. Perfect. Okay.

2 (47s):
So she's walking around and she's holding these pom-poms out and I'm like, what is she doing? And then I realized she was doing a zombie walk. She's

1 (56s):
Smart. Why

2 (57s):
Do some bees hold their arms out in front of her?

1 (60s):
Oh, that's a great, great question. If there's any zombie experts in his zombie historians in our listener pool, please write to us and tell us why that's great. Like I think it started with mummy's.

2 (1m 16s):
Well, Frank. Okay. Okay. That's what I was going to ask next. I was going to say if there are any zombie historians, please tell us what the origin of it was. So mummies

1 (1m 25s):
It's first in the old movies, old, old movies, the mummies walked like that. So I think the zombies are stealing that look from the mommies, so,

2 (1m 35s):
Okay. And you do something around this time of year. It does get, like I forget about, there's a difference between a zombie and a mummy and then,

1 (1m 43s):
And they're slow zombies. There's fat, some bees, I mean, zombies is a whole genre of everything. Oh yeah. Like, like if you, if you read screenwriting stuff, they talk a lot about not, not all books, but a lot of books when they're talking about genre, it's like the, the, to get really specific. You can't just say zombie, it has to be, are they slow or fast on B? So like in what is it like a world war Z. They're fast Sotheby's but like, I believe in the original day of the dead, Romero's their slows on me. So it's a whole thing. And I know, I only know this because I had a friend that was like a zombie nuts, so,

2 (2m 24s):
Okay. So picture you and I are sitting on a park bench in the apocalypse and we're just still our same normal self. Somehow we've avoided getting effected by the apocalypse. And then this zombie just goes, zipping the thing past us. And we say, yeah,

1 (2m 44s):
The past sappy and then a slow one comes with that's a slow zombie.

2 (2m 49s):
Can you tell, I can see already that's going to be a real slow. What about a medium speed zombie? That's what I would probably be. I'd probably ride,

1 (2m 59s):
I think I'd be on the slower end, but, but I, I think with some training we could maybe get to be fast zombies if we wanted, if we wanted to. Yeah. So did you get your self care in? I did I feel, how do I feel? How to say? Yeah. So it's interesting. I, I am in amongst my group of peers and people, a little younger I've become sort of the, my cousin called it the cancer doula. So when the exact term, yeah. And so I had a friend who was diagnosed on Tuesday with breast cancer and I sort of helped her navigate until she could.

1 (3m 43s):
Cause there's this weird period between when you're tested slash diagnosed the first, you know, I mean, there's a lot of weird periods, but the, the weirdest one from my, in my experience as an outsider, look, I've never had the disease in my body myself, but I've known many people who have, including my mom and my husband. And there is this weird period between when you're diagnosed and when your treatment starts. So, and that is like a no man's land where people's minds go crazy. Understandably that's our, what our mind does. So I was sort of there because she had, and she's younger, she's 33 and she's sort of a mentee in a lot of ways.

1 (4m 24s):
She's a writer of mine and I just was there to like field questions. And then when I didn't know them, I said, I have no idea, but you'll find out from the doctor, I have no choice, but to a question. And basically the question is that everybody asks is, am I going to die? So, which is obviously such a layered question because we all know that the answer is yes. I mean, that's part of the deal, when is another thing. And so it's like, I never say, well, we're all gonna die. So like calm down because that's just not helpful. And it's also not helpful to me when I'm in that situation at all.

1 (5m 4s):
So what I say is based on what the doctor said, because people never remember what the doctor says when the doctor calls. And luckily I was there to write it all down. I was there when she got the official confirmation and I immediately just started writing everything. The doctor said, because later you can go back and say, listen, based on what the doctor said out of the words out of her mouth, where this is treatable and curable type of cancer. So we have to go with what the experts said, say science and the expert, this lady is a bad-ass, this is what she has devoted her life to she's seen.

1 (5m 45s):
And so anyway, I, lot of what I did this week was regurgitating and, or like reiterating what the experts said so that this my friend could not lose her mind. Like, that's literally what I, you know, and, and, and it is a, yeah, the brain is a wild creature and it looks like my friend's going to be okay. However, nobody really knows because, you know, and then, and then the question is, will it come back? So like, it never ends, the questions will never end and it's best to stick with the data.

2 (6m 31s):
Kind of related to the thing I wanted to run by you, which is not anything that specific, but just generally about projection and like, I'm always, so it's actually always really amusing to me when I catch myself in a projection, which really you could make the argument that like, everything you do in life is as a projection. Cause that's just sort of how we're built psychically. But no, like I have a friend, a local friend who has a business and it's a business that I happen to drive by every, almost every day. And I noticed like, well, I first I thought during the pandemic, oh, I wonder if this business is going to close and it's sh she stayed there.

2 (7m 14s):
She stayed there. And then one day I drove by and I realized that there was no, it was empty inside. And I thought, okay, I got it. You know? And then I've been like debating, reaching out to her because, you know, it's, it's tricky. Like some people would welcome that and some people would feel ashamed or whatever. And I, and every day I drove by this thing and I feel bad that I hadn't called her. And I feel bad for her. And just imagining her, maybe she had to move. Maybe she had to leave the area. Maybe she can't afford to live here anymore. Or maybe she moved her business

1 (7m 48s):
To a new location,

2 (7m 49s):
To a new location.

1 (7m 52s):
My guess is what happened.

2 (7m 54s):
And that's exactly what happened. And it's just hilarious, the amount of, because of course it doesn't have anything to do with her and it has everything to do with me, but I just love catching myself in these moments and what you're talking about with the cancer. I mean, it's impossible for her not to project, whatever her knowledge or experiences of cancer onto her, this situation, it would be impossible. And in a good way for you not to project your experience, I mean, it turns out your projection was really helpful because you knew to write things down and you knew, and you could imagine her, you could, you, the freaking out was very familiar to you and yeah.

2 (8m 36s):
So it can be a good thing, but

1 (8m 38s):
Projection. Yeah. I think that you're right in that most things are projection and it doesn't mean that it isn't right also happening with the other person. So your projection could be spot on. So I guess then it's not really a projection, but it is, if you are a, you are giving the characteristics and the feeling and the tone of your own situation to their experience. But I definitely feel like the obvious projections for me are like, when, when I think, you know, someone's angry or upset with me, and really they're afraid that I'm upset with them.

1 (9m 21s):
Like that is the, if you ever, when people are like, what is projection? Like, look, dude, that's for me at its simplest form, it's like, oh, I'm projecting that onto you because, so anyway, but yeah, I, I think the, if we could harness the power of the brain doing its gymnastics, we could power the whole planet for, for decades in terms of the energy that is used. And I

2 (9m 51s):
Anxious energy

1 (9m 52s):
And just like going in, in the story, the narrative of whatever it is. And it, even if it's cause you can do. I mean, even though it's rare, like I can do a positive projection to like what I've talked about on this podcast of like thinking someone's gonna be my best friend or be projecting my hopes and dreams onto someone that I don't know that they're going to help me. They're going to, it's going to be awesome. And that usually doesn't happen just because it's a projection and you can't know, it usually is a different version of that. Even if it is a positive projection, but you know, my, my husband miles is always saying, you might as well project something positive, but you have to be careful. I have to be careful with that too, because then I get into situations where I'm like, why, why, why are, why, why aren't we best friends?

1 (10m 39s):
And why didn't you ask me to join your circus, whatever it is like. And then, so it's just a matter of like, for me, knowing that projection is part of the deal, but also eventually if I'm brave enough to check things out, like to, to figure out if the business just moved or like, yeah.

2 (11m 1s):
Yeah. That's what it, yeah. I think over time, as you know this about, as people know this about themselves and as their anger, maybe it's some of their anxiety decreases about these kinds of things. In any case, they learn to check the facts more. So this topic came up yesterday at my house because it just hasn't been a good week for Mike. It hasn't been a good week. Family-wise right. Kids. Aren't, we're just not doing that. Great. And so last night at dinner, I said, we're not doing that great. Like this one is, you're fighting with this one and this one is the bickering, blah, blah, blah. And we've had many, many, you know, cha children of two therapists.

2 (11m 44s):
We talk everything out or we try to talk everything out. We talking most things out it's to the point that my oldest is like, I can't to live in a family and in a house where we never have to talk about our feelings, he's he, he, he thinks this is all just such, which is understandable and fine. And we started talking about this issue of how every time you're having a fight, you're having every other fight that you've, you're, you're having all the other fights. Right? That is correct. And what we were trying to, or I was trying to convey, because one of the things that we're talking about is dishonesty and it was, and I, and I came up with an analogy that I'm pretty proud of.

2 (12m 30s):
So let's see what you think about it. If you think of the connection between relationships, trust, and honesty, really the relationship is the road long could stretch in any direction. The trust is the car and honesty is the gas. So you could have a beautiful car and a great road looks like it's going someplace fantastic. But if you don't have the honesty to put in the tank, your car is not going to go. You could have a great amount of honesty or get, or a truthfulness.

2 (13m 13s):
But if you don't have trust, if you have nothing, no gas, nothing to put the gas into, that's not going to help you get anywhere. And you can have an amazing road leading to these great vistas. But if you don't have the car, you know, I think that's great. Good. And how did I know it went over pretty great. And then one of my kids said, oh, I wish I could remember what it was. He said, well, you need this for a relationship. Oh, he said kindness. I said, okay, that could be the oil. Yeah. To refresh her kindness. Oh. And that was the other thing that came out of it. I said, let's, let's do a kindness campaign in our house. Let's do every day.

2 (13m 53s):
We try to say one pause and you know what? It was tricky for them. It was tricky for them to give each other a compliment that didn't have to do with themselves. Like the compliments started out as like, I like how you were. I like how you stopped saying this to me. I liked how you did something for me. And so then the challenge was, say a compliment that doesn't have anything to do with yourself. Anyway. So just as all, just to say you, if you really, if you want to make a difference in your life about these long held intractable beliefs, you just have to, you have to take an extremely active approach to do it.

2 (14m 33s):
You have to come up with like, not just thinking differently, but like actual steps.

1 (14m 39s):
I think that it's a constant, a constant work and it is right. It goes through phases. And it's interesting, you know, my dad was a child psychologist, but he was like super, super troubled. And so we never talked out anything. I think he was trying to get what he needed through his clients. Right. He was trying to get, he was projecting onto his clients, even though they're kids, we protect on the kids just the same. And he was also probably trying to get what he didn't get as a kid, through his clients. It's just a never ending.

1 (15m 19s):
But I think later in life, I hope, I hope that, that your kiddo can see that like the talking things out, as annoying as it probably gets, at least I think that right in there too, in the car, like maybe that the seatbelt could be like safety, right? In the relationship. We had no safety in our, in our family in terms of talking things out in term, you need it all. And I think that, that at least I hope kiddos who, who talked things out in their families learned that like it's safe to, it can be safe to express themselves. I think that's going to be who have kiddos as they get older in terms of not being super Uber people pleasers, but maybe you do all the work and you're just a people pleaser.

1 (16m 10s):
Anyway, I don't know. I don't have that experience. So I can't say

2 (16m 14s):
One little funny anecdote I'll share with you is I was driving with my daughter and I don't know how we got on the topic of if we weren't talking about self-esteem, but whatever we were talking about, she was asking me about something about me when I was a kid. And I said, well, probably not, because I didn't have very much self-esteem. And she said, what? And I said, you know, I just didn't like, have, I didn't think that highly of myself, I mean, the look on her face was just, she does, I have nothing, but self-esteem I say nice things to myself.

2 (17m 8s):
I think I'm, she's a say nice things to myself every morning. I, yeah. Yeah. Like she had this whole like, basically practice, like a spiritual practice of loving herself that I didn't even know. She had Aaron probably taught it to her. Aaron probably said, you know, you have to say nice things to yourself every day, but isn't that beautiful.

1 (17m 29s):
Awesome. That is, it gives me so much hope so. But yeah.

2 (17m 37s):
I wanted to ask you about how some games, which you mentioned. Okay. Did you say that's your favorite?

1 (17m 43s):
It's it's one of miles' favorite movies and it's a, it's a really interesting, weird, and it is, it's been a year since I've seen it, but it's wild it's. So

2 (17m 59s):
I saw it for the first time on you saying that. And did you hate it interviewing Joe Montana yet? No. Knowing it, it was, I liked it, but, and so maybe I was wondering if maybe we could ask our guests about this today, because what is it about me? Like sometimes that ratatat speaking style really works. Like, I think it really works in Glengarry Glen Ross and I, it just in this movie, it was so stilted. Every can came across the Stilton.

1 (18m 36s):
If I recall correctly, like one of the things that I liked about that was that the whole thing's a con right. So like fake. So like, I think this stilted for me was like, oh, this whole thing is like, everything's a con, that's how I interpreted it. Now it could just be dialogue that didn't work. But like, it, that's why it worked for me because I was like, oh my God, Metta on a metal level. Like it does seem stilted. And it seems weird. And even when, but I, for some reason, it like, w we like it really worked in miles is obsessed with the story. Like the way the story is told, you know, just in the acting, but you're right. The dialogue is odd.

2 (19m 17s):
So it would, do you think it's fair to say that the premise of the movie, as you've already said, is that everything is a con and that the psychiatrist is there, that's just a more legit and celebrated sort of con

1 (19m 35s):
Interested to see what, what Joseph thinks about that, you know, like about that take on that movie and then, yeah. Yeah. So house of games, and then the other one, you know, of his stuff is the criminal minds one. And then that, that, that I've watched, I mean, criminal minds is like, it just went off the air right. In 2020. And the other thing is my aunt made me tell him, said that I had to tell him that he gets better looking as he gets older. So we got to tell him that, but, and then my, and so criminal minds, and that I'm really interested.

1 (20m 15s):
He, he supports on his website. It says homeboy industries, which is about gang members. And I really want to see if he's, I'm assuming he's still affiliated with that since it's on his website. So I'd love to hear about that, but also just like, what was the Goodman school of drama? Like, what is the hell went on?

2 (20m 31s):
Yeah. Yeah. And I watched, I ended up watching a bunch of interviews with him. He really seems like the nicest guy in the world. He, he really does. And we have this weird sort of one. I only heard him mentioned this in one interview, but his Italian weren't from the same area as mine, but from the, from Sicily. And they came to the United States and settled in the Southwest because they were minors. And that's exactly what my dad's family did. And I never met any other Italians except for the people who lived in my dad's town, who did that. Cause every, you know, every other Italian goes to New York,

1 (21m 14s):
Sometimes Chicago later. But

2 (21m 16s):
Yeah,

3 (21m 26s):
Today on the podcast, we're talking with Joe Montana. Now, listen, if you don't know who he is, I don't know where you've been, but he's a star of stage. He's a Tony winner star of screen. You might have seen him on criminal minds, of course, but also the movie house games and godfather part three. I mean, the guy has done everything. He's, he's really a living legend. So please enjoy our conversation with Joe. <inaudible>

4 (21m 57s):
I'm an old man. I have a lot of stuff.

2 (22m 1s):
You are an Zadie is

4 (22m 6s):
Zadie. Nope. Oh,

2 (22m 8s):
It's like a term for like a hot dad.

4 (22m 13s):
Your daddy

2 (22m 14s):
Before.

1 (22m 14s):
Can we start just since we're being weird, my aunt, my Tia wanted me to tell you that you, as you get older, you the Mo the most, you get more and more handsome. So we'll just start by that thing

4 (22m 26s):
That I already love her.

1 (22m 29s):
I'll tell her, I'll tell her. Thank you for joining us. Yeah.

4 (22m 33s):
Oh, well, I mean you, are you, are you currently at the school now or past it?

1 (22m 40s):
I'm like a grandmother. Oh,

4 (22m 42s):
Okay. Got it. Okay. Okay. I wasn't sure that's what your alumni okay. That's

2 (22m 50s):
Yes. Okay, great. So we, we always start by saying, congratulations, Joe Montana, you survived theater school.

4 (22m 57s):
I did school.

2 (22m 59s):
Yeah. And you are our first Goodman person. And we want to hear all about it. I mean, cause you've stayed involved with the school. So, you know what it's like now, what are some of the main differences?

4 (23m 12s):
Well, I mean, it's hard for me to compare differences in terms of the academia of the school, because I would set an attendance once it moved to DePaul. But so that's, that's a tough question in terms of that. But all I can say is, I mean, I'm, I'm glad it was perpetuated. In other words, had to be a whole different ball game back when I was going, because first of all was the Goodman school of drama. We were located in the basement of the art Institute. So it was like being in a little underground or was no windows. It was a big deal when they made that little theater. So there wasn't even a theater that existed outside of the, the main stage, but students weren't even allowed to perform on that main stage.

4 (23m 58s):
I mean, until the second year, when you were eligible to do children's theater, which was kind of a moneymaker for the school, which was kind of cool. Cause every Saturday you do these performances, which I did. I did all four. I did all three children's shows. That's my second year. Plus they had a summer program where they actually paid you. It wasn't much but 50, you know, you can do the summer, the program. I don't even know if they still continued that. Did they do that at DePaul? That they have the children's theater program?

1 (24m 29s):
The children's theater program is actually still it's the moneymaker I believe.

4 (24m 34s):
Exactly. All right. Yeah. So, but it was good. I mean, it was a good experience. Oh fuck. They had a thing. I don't know if you knew this, but over the Mark Key of the theater at the Goodman theater was carved into the wood. It's probably, it has been there since the inception, when I don't know when that theater was built, it could have been the turn of the century, if not earlier, but it said you yourself must set flame to the fact it's what you have brought. We were aware of that. No, no. Well, that was carved into the, I mean, in other words, we were in the audience and it was a nice theater. It's like a 700 seat theater. You sit in that theater and then you saw this beautiful wood proceeded and carved in huge letters.

4 (25m 18s):
Was you and yourself much settling to the fact that faggot is a bundle of sticks. You know, obviously it had other kind of back in the sixties, a whole other kind of phenomenon. So the reason I bring it up is because at the end of the school year, they had the golden faggot award and it was these little, it was, it was, it was kind of cute. It would take these upside down plastic champagne cups and put these gold bundles of sticks and paint them gold. You know, it was, it was very like crap since, you know, it was like crafts arts and crafts and they, and they had this big ceremony at the end of the year and they gave out these golden bag of the words.

4 (26m 0s):
And I was very flattered because I won, I won, I won three that year. I won for all three of the shows that I had done at the Goodman for the summer. So I was, I was, I was, I was, I was a big ticket in the children's theater. I was a hot ticket in children's theater. But the one thing I could say is, and again, you would be best to tell me if it was somewhat similar in scope, but the theater school was run very much. Like maybe I can imagine maybe like a theater school would have been run in the 18 hundreds. I mean, it was very specific, very, I mean that first year you really didn't do anything.

4 (26m 43s):
You just classes, you took speech movement, this, that, and the other, but there was hardly any performance. It was, it was almost like they were trying to someone like the military. It's almost like let's get the ego out of you. I don't care what you did in high school or junior. I went, I went two years, junior college before I came to the Goodman. But it was like, all, all you did was you had an improv class maybe or stuff like that, but there was no performance outlet. There really was none. And they wanted it that way. And God forbid, if you told them, you know, maybe you had an addition, there was very little outside stuff like TV or film very little anyway. But if you even mentioned that, it'd be like, you know, what are you crazy? You know, you're a theater actor, the whole thing.

4 (27m 23s):
Yeah, go ahead. I went to Martin, Martin, Martin, junior college in Cicero, Illinois.

1 (27m 30s):
I'm from Chicago, I'm from Rogers park and then we moved to Evanston. So my mom taught at Oakton community college. So I was wondering if it was open.

4 (27m 37s):
No, it was Martin to the college. And then it was still in the same building as the high school. They have their own building now in Cicero, but it was back there. It was in the same building. So we used to put a piece of grass in the third floor. Paul called it the campus. I mean, I didn't have much in terms of education, past high school, but it worked out. But, but, but, but the classes were very, I mean, like there was the left. I don't know if they still taught the less SAC methods for speech.

2 (28m 9s):
They combined it with when we were there anyway with Linklater, it was less.

4 (28m 13s):
Okay. Well it was less sec then. And it was huge. I mean, you're walking around with a cork in your mouth and looking at mirrors and doing all that stuff. It was very, you know, rigid. I guess it'd be the best way to put it. And for a long time I thought, what the hell is this? Why is it, you know, this is bullshit. What am I doing? All this crazy stuff. And it really wasn't until later when I, and I mean, I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but after my two years, and I, and I paid my way through, I mean, back then tuition was like 800 bucks a year. And I, and I, I, we had no money. My parents, that's why I couldn't go to college, but I took student loans both years. In other words, back then they offered, you can, you could borrow $2,000 from the United States government each year for school.

4 (28m 60s):
And I did, and I would use 800 bucks to get into the school for the first year. And the rest I bought my parents for color TV. It wasn't a thing then. And I used it for rent because I lived with two other guys that went to the Goodman. And my second year I got a scholarship, but I still took the loan because I needed the money. So then I just used the two grand for, you know, whatever rent and things like that. What was funny? Wasn't so then my third year, I had a scholarship for my third year, and this was the summer of 1969, but they were doing the play hair was coming to Chicago and they were holding auditions and something like over 3000 people were going to audition for the play.

4 (29m 42s):
So it was like, I mean, it would be like Hamilton holding auditions for a Chicago company of Hamilton or something like that. So I thought, well, what the hell I had done? My, my background was musical comedy actually in high school and junior college for the most part. So I thought, oh, what the hell? I'll try out for it. Well, as it turned out, I got cast and it was like, no, I had to make a decision. Do I do my third year of Goodman? My third and final year of Goodman, school of drama or two here. So I remember meeting with Dr. Charles Mughal, who's running the school at the time. And I, I honestly think I would have been influenced by what he thought, because I thought, you know, I don't know, it's a Broadway musical.

4 (30m 24s):
It's my first job. I get to join equity and become a professional actor. But on the other hand, they're apparently looking at hair like, oh, you're doing so, but I went and met with them and I have to say, Dr. McCall is in his, whatever wisdom you want to call it, whatever. I, I explained to him what was going on. And I was like a month out of maybe starting school for my third and final year. And he said, listen, Joe, or Mr. Montagne or whatever you called me. He said, you came here to be an actor. They're offering you a job. Your third year's mainly going to be performance for whatever.

4 (31m 6s):
Maybe he understood me better than I understood myself. But he said, oh God, congratulations can carry on. And you know, live your life and you know, to make, start your path. And they did. And I never looked back.

1 (31m 22s):
Can you imagine if you hadn't done that, who knows would've happened? But that was, I love that. He said that and that he was not like, no, you must stay in school because who knows would've happened. You probably would have been still a mega talent, but you never know. And so you did have,

4 (31m 39s):
I did hair. I did here for a year and a half on bro. I mean, it was on the Shubert theater downtown, which is now the, I dunno, the American airlines theater. I don't know what it's called, but we were at the Schubert. And the fact that show was so successful, it ran there for a year and then it was already booked for, I'd never thought a play could run for a year in Belltown. So then we moved to the Blackstone, which ultimately got bought by theater school. But we moved into the Blackstone in 19, had to be done 19 sometime in 1970. And we ran there for quite a while. And then I joined the national tour and that's where my wife and I got together. She was, she, she we'd known each other from, I was in junior college.

4 (32m 20s):
She was in high school, but we used to do district wide musicals out in Cicero. She went to Morton west high school. I went to more needs. We did district wide music. She also got cast in here, but this is somebody I'd known known from that theater department. It's so tremendous. I have to say that from Morton east Martin west, the junior college, that of the four leads in hair, three of us were from that program of more, yeah. Out of 3000 people auditioning, they all came. Three of us came from that high school east or Morton west. Yeah. Incredible, incredible. The one guy who ran the department was to this day, I've been touch with him. He's like almost 90, but him and the people who worked with him, they ran that department.

4 (33m 6s):
Like I've looked, I've worked on Broadway now a few times. And each time I walk into a Broadway theater, I look around and go, well, it's just all right, but it's not more than these high school theater is not as first as big theater at Morton. These high schools built like in the twenties and thirties. And it's a, it's a landmark and it's like 2300 seats. I mean, it's, it's massive and it's beautiful. And, and we went to plays and they ran these auditions. Like my wife would, I've always, and we're still together. My wife, I mean, we've been together over 50 years, but we'll, we'll, we'll talk about how it was harder to audition for the plays at Morton east and Western. It was positioned for professionals.

4 (33m 46s):
That's neither here nor there, but anyway, that's what I left the Goodman 69 to Joe to go into the, the hair. But now to get back to my point being, you know, you know, why am I taking these classes, the movement, you know, we're going to run around with Tom. Do you remember who taught the movement at the time? And, and, and Sue and park, we did the less sex stuff. All of a sudden I get cast. Now, all of a sudden, I'm doing eight shows a week of a musical. This is a whole other ball game for anybody. Who's been a student, all of a sudden, I've seen other kids in the cast, like they're losing their voice, they're doing this and that.

4 (34m 26s):
And I'm realizing I'm having to do stuff like, you know, using the Y buzz and putting, you know, making sure when I'm singing and doing lines on the stage, as big as the Schubert, you know, it's a project in order to get it, you know, start to tap in to those things I learned. And the same thing would movement class. You know, I remember at my audition, I think that helped me get cast because they'd have you do some improv stuff. And a lot of people would just like, we're doing Dick, you know? And I'm, I I'm, I'm, I'm thinking I'm trying to be imaginative because I'd taken these movement classes. And it was like, so I had to say, in retrospect, I thought to myself, you know, what, as strict as it was, and as kind of our, as it, maybe it seemed, or, you know, serious minded as it was, it has kind of paid off because many of the cast ultimately got Tamo Horgan, who was the director, was a guy who was a great director.

4 (35m 22s):
He's got, he directed the original Broadway show. There was only four other, three other companies besides the New York of that. There was New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, and San Francisco and Tom O'Rourke and directed all of them. And he was just brilliant. You know, he was, he, he created, he made hair, what it was by, you know, making it imagine too, this was, there was the doom scene. It was all that little stuff to kind of piddling. The audiences will make them want to see it, you know, but it was so much more than that. The music was great. It was the Hamilton of its time. But, but all of that came into play. And a lot of the kids he hired Tom would hire like raw talent initially. Like when they cast the show, they thought this person thinks like, I'll give you an example.

4 (36m 5s):
When I went to audition, I, you know, I've been going to the Goodman for two years. I show up in a seersucker jacket with a tie and the music to Brigadoon because I'm thinking it's a musical, I'll sing, you know, you know, the heads are Underhill and, and I want to look presentable and I walk in and here's Jerome Ragaini and Jim righto and Tahmoh Oregon. And they looked like they stepped off, you know, like a rolling stones cover. And they're looking at me like I'm from Mars, dressed in a suit and tie. And I said, now I'm going to sing a song from Brigadoon. You want to go cast way to go walk?

4 (36m 47s):
And they were like, I can see, they were like in shock, but I guess I was in a rock band for like five years. I mean, I had a decent voice and yeah. Yeah. So they saw something in me and they said, look, we want you to come back. You know, this was the first callback it come back, but you dump the suit. You know, luckily my hand was a little long cause I was in a band that was still in the band. So my hair was actually longer than most people. It was like a kind of beat a look, you know, they said, get rid of all that stuff and can pick something a little, you know, pick a song that's, you know, and I realized, oh, this is not like, pretend, you know, you know, love rock musical.

4 (37m 27s):
These guys really are like that. Of course, I came in, I borrowed one of the student that I remember his name was Dan partner. He was like a hippie from, from Colorado. And he used to wear like a syrup to school, basically a rug with a hole in it. I borrowed that. I wore that to the next position. So I walked in with that and you know, maybe saying something from like blood, sweat, and tears or something like, yeah, here we go. And I wound up doing two or three more callbacks and got cast anyway. But my point being many of the students got, or not students, many of the cast members got dropped along the way. And not only that, when I got cast, I was cast what they called the tribe. I was a member of the tribe.

4 (38m 8s):
My one major number was the flag song. That was like my solo. But otherwise I did all, anything stuff. I wasn't one of initially one of the leads by my wife, Arlene for Morton west was she played genie. And then other kids were more nice. Ted Aliota was Claude, but he broke his leg actually early in rehearsals and they had to replace them. But that's what I meant. We had three of us that ultimately did delete in the show, but I quickly became the understudy because the guy was wasn't it who had to leave because he was like a rock and roll, not a rectum. He was like a Vegas kind of guy. He had a lot of flashes and stuff, but he couldn't hold up to eight shows a week going on. And then, yeah, I mean, once you, who've never done that, you know, it's a responsibility and a lot of them didn't take that seriously.

4 (38m 53s):
They'd be out partying every night and they come in, I can't talk. So bottom line once, once camo Horgan left and it became like, Hey, this, we got to do this as, this is a job. Then things started to fall into place like Andre de shields, who you may know who he is. We wanted to Tony a couple of years ago, he was in our company that cast Stan Shaw, not another guy when I took some notoriety from roots and other things, Elena Reed, anyway, but it started, it started to shake itself out. And people who really kind of had some, some element of knowing what they were doing, Jonathan Banks. So you may know from breaking bad and all that, he was our stage.

4 (39m 34s):
He was our stage manager. He tried out, he was, he tried out, but he couldn't sing well enough. So, but he lied and said he had some experience in stage managing. So they made them

2 (39m 45s):
Everything you're describing about your curriculum sounds actually exactly like what we did, the differences. We did it for four years and, and the law and you couldn't perform your first year. You only got to do something on a very small scale. Second year. You really didn't get into the casting pool till third and fourth year.

4 (40m 4s):
What's funny is I got, I got, I did something in my first year, totally by a fluke because I had, I was the only kid in school with hair, like down to here. The one of the main stage show they did one of the first main stage shows. They did my first year with Caesar and Cleopatra. But Carrie Snodgrass who wound up winning him, nominated for an Oscar later, married Neil young and passed away. But anyway, she was Cleopatra. And this guy, Marie Mathison was, was an actor that they used to bring in like names. He was somewhat of a name of theater. You know, they, they would bring in name people to play the leads, but no students, no first-year students could be a, well, they use third year students and stuff to play other parts, but first year, absolutely not.

4 (40m 48s):
But I remember the, the director, this guy named, I forget his name, but he sees me walking around school with his hair down to here. And he, he tells, you know, Mugu says, I need that guy in the place. The only person in the entire school who looks at gypsy, I'm going to have to put wigs on everybody. Cause everybody's, everyone has got short hair. Nobody was. And so they put me, so I just played like a spirit carrier, you know, that whole production. But I used to drive Carrie Snodgrass home every night because she happened to live near where I lived. I got to know her pretty well, but that was my, that was, that was the one. And only time I made it to the Goodman main stage because I left the school before I would have been eligible.

4 (41m 30s):
Otherwise,

2 (41m 31s):
Did they have the cut program then where they asked me to be invited back every year?

4 (41m 40s):
Well, it was, I'll tell you this. It was a little different back then in the sense that you didn't audition my first year, you, you had letters of recommendation and, and also, you know, the Vietnam war was going on and just be, sometimes there'll be military people coming in and out that wanted to become actors and they would get letters of recommendation. So we'd have some people in, there were like guys that were a little older that were, had done a couple of years in the army, whatever. So, but what they did is I'll give you an example. My, my freshmen class was 60, as I recall, like about 60 people. My second year class was 12 that's how many got cut or quit there was.

4 (42m 27s):
But I think it was kind of self immolating with over to word is turning yourself on fire, because what would happen is, I mean, there were literally a couple of people who were like certifiably insane. So I mean, all of a sudden you see you do an improv and all of a sudden they really wanted to kill you, you know, things like that. And so, so a lot of people fell along the wayside and got weeded out because they shouldn't have been there in the first place, but they'd had at least an audition process, which they started sometime after I left, they would have at least maybe seen that. I don't know. But, but, but, but just going on letters of recommendation, didn't quite cut it.

4 (43m 13s):
So, so there was a lot of people there who realized, well, no, what am I doing here? I don't want to do this. Especially with, with being as strict as it was. I think they thought it was going to be like, Hey, I can have fun and do this. You know, some people actually switched programs. They would call like, you know what? I don't want to be an actor. I want to be a second designer. Or they go into the lighting department, you know, something like that. So there was a big attrition. And the third year, as I said, if I would've stayed in my third year of the 12th, only five continued. So that third year class was only five that had done the previous two years. And like I said, some left for different reasons. Some just didn't want to like it anymore. Some got a job. Like I did some, you know, just went back home and some just couldn't cut it.

4 (43m 58s):
We might, may not have been asked to come back, but you would think they'd want the money. I mean, think, you know, I think a lot of it was more, they just, people just couldn't quite handle it. I was very, very close to Bella hick and probably I w I, you know, and I can't speak for the late Bella. It can, but she probably had to name maybe the five students. She was closest to her in her life. I think I would be one of them. And I don't mean that in a boastful way, because we got in a very personal way. She knew I was kind of like one of the broke kids, you know, that like was living off my loan and stuff.

4 (44m 39s):
So literally she met her husband, Frank, you know, while I was there, it was a carpenter at the school. At the time she hired me to paint their apartment when she got married. So after school, I would go to their apartment and painted, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't a painter, but she did it only because she knew I needed the money. And so we were very close. And even beyond after I left the good men that would come and visit her call her, I've been to her home. Her and Frank, we were very, very close. I might, my dear friend Renee I saw was, was another one she got very close to. And she used to talk about Geraldine, Paige.

4 (45m 21s):
She was always close to Geraldine page would have been married to rip torn a wonderful actress. Well, we didn't have a specific acting teacher. I mean, with the cat, the co the, the staff, I mean, there was, nobody was, there was no like one-on-one thing, but she was certainly, I would say she was my strongest influence. She and she directed. I know she directed the first of the children's shows I did there. I think maybe even two of them. And that was one of her. I mean, I could tell I was one of her favorites. You know what I mean with her? And I, we bonded. I mean, we just worked, she had a couple people that you can tell, and there was a leak you may have heard about Eugenie Leon, who was the teacher there.

4 (46m 2s):
She was from, she was something, she was Russian. And she was from the Moscow art theater and that whole thing. And she, she, she, she studied, you know, she, she knew Stanislavski. I mean, she was something, she had this heavy Russian accent. You can look her up because she she's, she was in a few movies. My name was Eugenia, Leon Povich, but she taught it this way. And she, I wasn't my Joseph, my Joseph, that's what she called me. She was actually wonderful because he was such a character. Patrick Henry was another one on the staff who taught the history class. And he was kind of, he started the St. Peter that became very prominent in Chicago, back in the sixties, late sixties, early seventies.

4 (46m 44s):
And so the staff then was like, Patrick, Henry and Leon to bitch Bella, Joe slowish. Those are the, those were the main ones. And then there were others that I could think of. Sue Ann Park taught voice.

2 (46m 59s):
Did Dr. Bella always have that a cervic wit we've had so many people on this podcast telling their Bella stories. I mean, she had the greatest one-liners my favorite one was she said to somebody you're standing in the middle of your costume.

1 (47m 21s):
The other one was, we had a friend who went to her and said, I really wanted to be in this play. Why, why wasn't I, I wasn't. I, and she said, because I didn't want you in my play.

4 (47m 36s):
Yeah. Bella would cut to the chase. I could. Yeah, no, she, she was, I loved her to death and yes, if I had to pick what was my favorite instructor or people on the staff, there would have definitely been Bella. Tom <inaudible> was, was we got, I got to be very close to, cause you gotta remember this was the sixties. And he was the one guy that actually, you know, after hours you could smoke a joint for them. You know what I mean? But he hated the fact that w we would come to dance class, you know, after having smoked a joint, because he knew it. He'd say, I told you don't do this during school hours. Shit. But he was great. And, and anyway, but like I said, this was the sixties.

4 (48m 20s):
It was a unique time in our history. That's okay. I just wanna make sure it's not the gate

2 (48m 31s):
Launched with hair. And then what did you, did you keep doing theater? When did you transition into television and film?

4 (48m 39s):
Oh yeah, I did theater for, well, I did theater for almost 15 years. In other words, after here, the next actually thing I did was Godspell in Chicago. I got cast in Godspell at the Studebaker theater over on Michigan avenue there. I think it's gone now. I got cast. I was Judas in that and I did that for a year. So I really thought that was my ticket. I thought, you know, I'm going to be a musical comedy guy. I'm going to be Jim Dale, hopefully something like that. But while I was at doing a Godspell, Andre de shields, who I mentioned to, I'd been in the hair cast with me, went back and started working with this group that he had worked with out of the university of Wisconsin, which was the organic theater company run by Stuart Gordon.

4 (49m 27s):
So they had come back from Wisconsin because they basically have been kind of kicked out because he had done this nude version of Peter pan up there, you know, which was very controversial. It was a completely new, I think Andre played tiger Lily, which gives you an idea of what the, you know, the imagination of that. But that's what was great about the organic theater at the time. So anyway, he comes back and he's working with organic theater. So of course, while I'm doing Godspell, he invites my wife. We weren't married yet, but we were still together. My mother, Arlene and I to come see him, do the show, work at the organic theater. This is like 1971, maybe 72, 72.

4 (50m 8s):
And we see it. And the show just knocked our socks off because it was done in three, they did 3, 3, 1 up in three parts that ran in Chicago for like over a year. It was tremendous. You got to also realize too Greece was playing at the Kingston minds theaters, a midnight show. We used to go see that. That was like

2 (50m 24s):
Theater. Like,

4 (50m 27s):
Yeah, it was a theater. It was called the Kingston

2 (50m 29s):
Mind. Oh, I used to work there when it was a blues bar. I didn't know it had been a theater.

4 (50m 34s):
Oh, it was a theater. And the reason it was called Kingston minds is because have you ever heard of the act of Jack Wallace? Well, Jack Jack recently passed away about a year ago, but Jack June Picasa who started the Kingston ones, she left Jacqueline at that time was a terrible alcoholic, but it was cleaning himself up and she let him live in the theater in exchange for cleaning up, sweeping up. And his father was a miner in Southern Illinois at the Kingston mines. So June decided to name the theater, Kingston, mines theater, and that whole complex because of Jack's father working in these mines. Cause she said she had such an affinity towards Jack because he was this incredible human beings and then wound up checking it, cleaned himself up and wound up between one flew over the Cuckoo's nest, Chicago Murphy and got all this acclaim.

4 (51m 21s):
And they made a documentary, which you should see called the portrait of an actor. He had been in prison, you know, Jack and I worked together many, many times after that, we did a movie for a Columbia student film called Medusa challenger and actually got a lot of play. He did the original, he was in Glengarry Glen Ross with me on Broadway. I mean, he was, he did a lot of Mamet movies. Jack went on, he did things he did up anyway. You can look them up with Jack was a force of nature. The apitomy of Chicago, raw talent ex-convict who becomes a Broadway actor type of thing. But anyway, Kingston, mines. Yeah, that was the midnight show at Kingston, mines, Greece.

4 (52m 2s):
And from there went to, went to New York and became one. And it wasn't really a musical at the Kingston money. It was a play with some music, but it was much more raw. I mean, there were stuff in like, fuck you. And you know, I mean, it was, it was, it actually had a lot more balls. It was more, I thought it was actually better than what it became, but of course it had to that to become commercial. But anyway, that's another story. So I don't even know how we got on that

2 (52m 34s):
Talking about what, between hair and

4 (52m 39s):
Right. So Godspell, we went to see work and I was so taken by the show. I thought it was so imaginative. It was kind of like what hair was to me. It was like this guy, Stuart, Gordon. I mean, he's like, wow. Cause the thing was, there were, they were using like goofy little props and stuff, but this thing was so explosions and things and lighting and scientist, little tiny theater, you know, up in uptown, you know, up on beacon street, there's a terrible neighborhood. It's terrible. And it was like, what did, what is this? You know, this is incredible. So anyway, that showed them went onto Broadway while I was doing Godspell.

4 (53m 19s):
But at flopped New York, wasn't kind of ready for it. Unfortunately, as it turned out that here's later star wars happened and all that, we could actually predated all that stuff. It just wasn't, it, it probably because they, they, they, they, they, they, their vision was too big. They should've kept it like an as an off-Broadway show. And I'm thinking of been huge, but they tried to expand it to Broadway. And you can't because what made it, it was camping and the camp didn't work on a giant Broadway stage anyway. So Stuart Gordon comes back to Chicago with the whole company. Some of the people left, John heard was got to be pretty well known. He left, but some of the original state court has heard a few others. It's not, they said, well, we're gonna come back and re restart the company, the organic.

4 (54m 3s):
And at this time though Godspell was ending. And I decided, I don't know if they still have it in Chicago. They used to have these equity showcases where you could, if you were an equity member, you could put together a scene and then they would invite agents.

1 (54m 18s):
They still have versions of it yet at the, at the theater building on Belmont. They had it for a long time.

4 (54m 22s):
Well, that year now I've Godspell had finished. And I thought, well, what am I doing? This equity showcasing, maybe, you know, that'll do something. So I, I, I used this one actor, Richard Gillilan, who was married to Jean smart, who became my dearest friend who actually just passed away last year. And Michelle Taylor, another pretty well known actor also passed away few years ago. But the three of us, myself, Richard and Michelle decided to do a play. And I said, you know, let me ask this director who did work, who worked for my friend, Andre de shields. See if he'd like to direct it, because you've just back from New York, maybe he's come, nothing to do. And I call and he did, he was looking at Stuart was like, be great.

4 (55m 3s):
So he directed us in this little showcasing and it was wonderful, you know, and nothing really. I mean, it didn't matter what came of it, but what came of it was he asked us the three of us to join his company, the new organic theater company. And I had nothing else going. And I thought I liked this guy. And I thought, yeah, I'll do it. Michelle said, he'll do it. Totally. The reason Richard do it, didn't do it. He got offered a job at ACP in San Francisco after Godspell. And he went off and did that. So Michelle and I joined the organic theater. The first play we did was the wonderful high school suit by Ray Bradbury, which actually turned out to be a huge hit. We toured Europe. We took it to Europe with 20, 25 years later.

4 (55m 45s):
I've made the movie that story, you know, for Disney, we actually made the movie with, I was the only one from that cast, but it was, he signed Miralis and Eddie almost Gregory Sierra. It was great. Anyway, the movie I thought I loved the movie came up. I thought pretty well, Disney doesn't push it pretty much, but at least it came out anyway. So I was that, that started my career with organic theater. I wound up staying five years less than doing a play that I conceived, which was Bleacher bums about people and the bleachers of the Chicago Cubs. I came in with this idea with the summertime. We had used all our money on our shows that year and storage said to the cast, but a company, anybody got an idea for a plane, it will cost us nothing.

4 (56m 31s):
And I said, well, I have this idea of a play of the people who sit in the bleachers. All we'd have to do is build somebody to wear what you wear to the ballpark. And that's what got Bleacher bums going in.

2 (56m 44s):
Is that what inspired their whole SNL thing with the bears?

4 (56m 51s):
No, no, no. I had, I D I mean, I didn't, I mean, you'd have to ask them. I mean, I didn't, they, Robert speical who came up with that bit, he, I think he just did it thinking I'm posting this and Elena I'm from Chicago. I'd be the guy to do this bit

1 (57m 7s):
Beliefs. Your bum is brilliant. It's like one of the first things I saw as someone from that area as like a teenager. And I thought, oh, this is like, this is Chicago. This is, you know, this is my town. It is so iconic. It is hilarious. And I didn't know that was the origin story, Joe.

4 (57m 29s):
No. And it came up and, and look, I mean, if you go to Samuel French and get the script that says conceived by Joel, Montanian written by, and the, my name is in there with the original cast as it should be, because we, once I pitched the idea, cause I used to sit in that section of the bleachers and solvers going around me and I said, hi wave. So I brought the company to the ball game. We went there for three days in a row, Wrigley. Felix said, am I right? Isn't this a play? And so we went back to the theater and did improv or improv and taped them. So we did like nine hours worth of improv. And from that cleaned the script and we, and we built it around a nine ending plate. That was, that was important. I remember going to Wrigley field with a Nagra recorder recording sounds just so it helps to sell it.

4 (58m 11s):
And when people walked into theater, we had a guy selling popcorn that was organic. Wasn't wanting it to be immersible like you were there. You know, we did the play. Cops was like that to like, you walked in, you thought you're walking into a diner. That's midnight in Chicago. So anyway, but I got lucky with that one. It was like, yeah, the idea was a good idea, but I couldn't have done it alone. And so collectively, and it became obviously to this day, they still do it. I mean, I get, you know, worldly checks for like 30 bucks, six months because we shared a royalties with all the original cast.

1 (58m 44s):
Do you feel like you're an insomnia, like an ensemble actor? Do you consider yourself like working in an ensemble is your jam?

4 (58m 52s):
Yeah, I would say it's my, it's my jam because that's what I know. I mean, like I said, as I said, when I finally, like I said, when Glen Gary finally happened in 1984, which kind of did change, like certainly changed my career plane. I remember after I won the Tony award that night, somebody came up to me and said, well, what's it like to win the Tony awards? I said, it's like winning the lottery, but I, but I've been buying tickets for 15 years. I've been doing theater from, from 1969 to 1984. No bang. This happened. So, I mean, all I knew was ensemble work, especially at the organic, but even in the musicals, it had to be me or will listen to work.

4 (59m 34s):
As soon as you're working with, even with one other actor, it's an ensemble, it's a one man show.

1 (59m 39s):
Right. Right. And I think it translates for me watching you on television. So I'm a true crime nut, like every other lady in this world. But I, so, so, and, and criminal minds is one of my, my favorite things of all time. And what I noticed about you on that show is that there is still an ensemble feel to that show for me, that it is not, it's like it's a family you're watching. And I think that's what makes it so amazing.

4 (1h 0m 5s):
Well, that's, I'll, I'll tell you this. When I joined the show, when it came to me, you know, Mandy Patinkin had been on the show when he left and he left kind of going, that's a whole story in itself. We just kind of, he just left the first day of shooting the third season. He just didn't come. You know, there's a lot of reasons and that's a whole other story. So anyway, now if you've watched the show, there was like three or four episodes that they kind of, they had to scramble because they wrote them out. And so there was nobody there so that I get the call saying, they're interested in you playing this part. You know, Mandy Patinkin left the show and they're looking for somebody to kind of fill that slot. And I didn't know anything about it. But the only thing I knew about criminal minds was that my dear friend, Michelle Taylor loved the show and told me, you gotta watch the show and I still didn't watch it.

4 (1h 0m 54s):
But now I'm being offered the role. I better see what this is. So I watched, they, they gave me the episodes. I watched like one or two of the very first episodes from season one, but I said, I want to see what they're doing now. So they sent me the episodes that they had just done without Mandy, you know, so I can see what it was going up. And I watched it. But I thought when, when Mandy was there, it was kind of like, he was like, you know, leading the parade. Right. But when I watched those episodes without him, I thought, this is no, this is not Magnum PI. This is not house.

4 (1h 1m 34s):
This is an ensemble. Everyone, actors are tremendous. And they have such a strong identity. You know, Dr. Ray, he was my favorite right away. This fucking character is unbelievable. I love this guy. And I don't even know. And same thing with Penelope Garcia and every single one of them, they had such a strong identity. And now it was really able to blossom because that's the guy who was kind of leading the parade. Isn't there now. And they all have to kind of pick up the slack. So I looked at it. So then I took the meeting with the no shit. I can't believe I'm spacing on his name. Ed Bernero, who was the show runner ex Chicago cop 10 years in Chicago.

4 (1h 2m 20s):
So, first thing, when I met him, I walked in his office and he had these white Sox things. I go, well, two out of three, eight bed is an Italian. You're Italian from Chicago, but you're a Sox fan. I said, but

1 (1h 2m 33s):
I'll

4 (1h 2m 33s):
Take the meeting. So then I said to him, we talked and I said, and it was a short meeting. And he even brought it up later. He says it was the shortest meeting I ever had. I expected all these questions, that things. And he says, I remember you coming and looking around saying, well, you're Italian, you're cop from Chicago. You're a Sox fan. I could live with that. I'll do it. And then he was like, you'll do it. I said, yeah, I'm in. And then I explained it. But what I said was, I said, but here's the condition. I said, you got to keep the ensemble that you have. Now. I said, don't put me at the front of the parade. I said, yeah, I'll accept being number one on the call sheet, which was important to me because I've been around long enough to realize it trickles down from number one.

4 (1h 3m 15s):
And if Mandy was number one and he's a little nuts, they don't need, I don't need to find out that somebody else is a little nuts and it's going to trickle down to me as number 2, 3, 4, or five. I gotta leave. I gotta be at least in terms of that, you know, I want to set the tone because I'm not going to be nuts. I know myself well enough to think it's going to be okay. We're gonna have a good time on this. Especially if everybody was still shook up, they thought maybe the show was going to go away. You know, when he left and I said, look, no, this show, I don't think it's going to go anywhere. I said, it's like a baseball team. I said, you lost the left fielder. I'll come in. I'll play left field. I said, but you know, it's not my show. I said, so I said, I, in fact I said, the analogy I made is I said, I want to be Dr.

4 (1h 3m 58s):
Smith from lost in space. I want to be the old Crump curmudgeon in the group. I said, but I don't want to be the captain. I said, no. I said, let's calm this Gibson. Be the, that guy. Let him see. Who's the likely guy he's running the team. Let me just be, you know what I am. I said, so they built this whole backstory. He and I, and then we, and then we even did the episode. We saw the young versions of us. And, but anyway, so it's right from the jump I felt this was a tremendous ensemble. That if you look at all the great shows, long running, especially television of all time, that's the reason we could go to Mary Tyler Moore. You go to, I love Lucy

1 (1h 4m 40s):
Reminds me of, so I'm a huge, I was a huge Barney Miller show fan growing up. And it has a similar vibe to me where everybody's, it just, it, it, you can sense the fact that everyone respects the other person's work and everyone does their jobs. So well that I cared about. I never cared about like, when I watch true crime, I'm like, eh, if they get off it it's okay. But like in criminal minds, I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Every one was essential to the whole show. It was brilliant.

4 (1h 5m 16s):
That's what keeps the show going because of course there's going to be changes as we did. You know, some people come and go, there was the cast changes to summit, but the nucleus always was still there. And some people filled in some didn't fill in maybe as well as others did. But I tell you where we wound up the final eight and it went everywhere from eight to seven, five to six, back to eight, we wound up with eight and boy that last two seasons. We got really tight that group. Cause I mean, I think we were all of a similar mind. It was for women for men. And we were all like all on the same track and you know, spoiler alert. There's a good chance. We'll come back.

4 (1h 6m 2s):
We'll see. All I can tell you is there there's strong interest from CaroMont plus because they're that new outlet and everything. And of course they, they realized they would like to have something what we do so well in syndication. We're still, I think one of the top five in the world, I get fan mail from China. It's ridiculous. I've been this year, I've been invited to about 150. You talk about girls, high school, girls graduation, some marriages, but mostly graduation, young girls. I get it. They're fascinated by this because they want to know what to avoid. I think

1 (1h 6m 42s):
I used to see myself am in the, because Gina, Gina and I were both therapists for many years and then, and now writers. And so I could see myself in those characters as a, as a woman, it usually true crime that the problem is it's all men all the time, but criminal minds had such compelling women characters that weren't just victims. Actually. It was amazing. So that's just my,

4 (1h 7m 9s):
Yeah, they're so strong. All four of them, the four we officially wound up with, I mean, Kiersten Padgett, AIJ Aisha. I mean, I can't think of for a stronger woman in EV and we all got along so well, there's no egos. There's no nothing. I mean, it's like, that's what, we're all, we're all in. I mean, we're all, you know, th th they're doing a lot of business in negotiations, but we, as a collective group have said, we would like nothing better than to get back together and play around for another whatever, how long. So we'll see what happens as soon as it'll happen would be probably spring of next year, but I'll, I'll let you know,

2 (1h 7m 46s):
And we will. So I want to respect your time and I know we're going to have to wrap up soon, but I've got to ask about David Mamet. Who's such a big part of your career. I actually hadn't seen house of games until a couple of days ago and it reminded me. So I always have the same experience watching a man at play, which is I can't get into it. I can't get into it. I'm all the way in. I never want to leave. That's always my journey. And it was the same with that movie. And I actually, before we were talking to you, I was asking BAAs what she makes of this sort of stilted language.

2 (1h 8m 25s):
And actually her answer for your movie is, well, it's all a con. So it, it plays because you know, everybody's pretending, but I was just curious how that was for you or how his language has been for you. Has it ever been something to kind of overcome,

4 (1h 8m 46s):
Well, first let me say this. Cause I think you'll find this interesting. I first met mammon on the steps of the Goodman theater. It was like 19. I think I was doing a wonderful ice cream suit at the time at the, at the organic. So it was like 19 72, 73. And I was going back to the Goodman probably to see Bella or somebody like that. And I was going down the stairs. Cause like I said, it was underground. I was going down the stairs and this gentleman's coming up the stairs and he's very Natalie dressed. I remember at the time and I'm dressed like a bomb ticking and he stops me. He goes, excuse me. I just want to let you where he was. My name is David Mamet. I'm a playwright. And I saw thing you've done recently at the organic.

4 (1h 9m 27s):
And I think he really wonderful actor someday. I would love you to perhaps work on one of my projects and I don't know who the hell this guy is. I'm like, yeah, great. Oh, that's cool. Nice to meet you. And that's how we met on the steps of the Goodman. And it was later that he then came to the, he started fighting, trying to fight. It's just a ride back from Vermont where he was teaching was going to start his own company, but he hadn't yet. And now he was trying to go without visiting all the local theaters and liked the organic. So he came to us with the script for American Buffalo, which had never been done at that point, just written. And he said, I'd like to hear it. Would you guys mind reading it? So I was the first person to repeat for him, Jack Wallace, read Donnie, read the owner of the pawn shop in this act of Brian Hickey, read the kit.

4 (1h 10m 12s):
And so we just read it for him. And it was like, you know, going home and asking our opinion. I'm saying, yeah, nice, Mr. Man, we're contemporaries for two weeks apart in age, I said, well, Dave, I think the ending is a little weird, but who knows? But bottom line, he started calling me, using me to do a little bit like, you know, reading stuff at the library, you know, he was starting to get stuff. Then they did sexual perversity in Chicago. Organic did it. We were the theaters to do it. As it turned out, I had, it was a summer thing. And I had already committed to doing the play Lenny. That was the show, the Broadway show Lenny. I was the understudy for Lenny and it was a big paying job, but I couldn't turn it down and it was in it.

4 (1h 10m 56s):
And we weren't obligated to do the summer show with organic because that's when the, the, the company would go their own way. But if you wanted to stay, you could. So I could have done the original production, the sexual perversity in Chicago, but I did, I was already committed that they wanted me to while I was supposed to play that part, the lead part. But it's one of those kinds of things could, would have, should I would've been better off doing that than putting the understudy of Lenny, which I never worked on. Anyway, it turns out because I wound up doing the world premiere of life in the theater for Mamet, a few other things, and then ultimately led to obviously led to Glengarry, which started for me, everything else, him and I, I mean to this day, we're very close and have a lot of fun things together.

4 (1h 11m 41s):
But going back to your question though, what was that thing about the language? Well, okay, well let me put it this way. It's difficult to memorize because he writes a Niambi contaminant. If you were to wear that, you are. No, I wasn't. I mean, because I'm like that stuff, you know, I don't even know how to spell that, but I'll say this as, as, as an acting student going up and reading plays, as you may well know, so many things were set in New York and it was everything was the Bronx this time square and everything was New York and jargon.

4 (1h 12m 22s):
And so many of your playwrights came from there. Or then there was the Southern thing and Tennessee Williams. And when I first read Mamet for me, it was like, oh, this guy writes kind of like I talk, you know what I mean? And he, his ear is kind of like that. It's almost like it's, it's not realistic. It's hyper-realistic he takes almost a vernacular of guys like myself guys, like Jack there's no, there's no, it's no accident. That speed. That speed that American Buffalo, if you get the original script is dedicated to JJ Johnson.

4 (1h 13m 2s):
JJ Johnson is an actor who was, did Glengarry with me on Broadway, all these other things. Again, ex-convict, you know, one of these doms, those guys like Jack Wallace, but these are the guys that Mamet channels, you know, he sees in them that grog, grit, pure talent that they have and re, but he spins it a little bit. These guys don't talk in my head, you know, but if you take that and spin it a little bit, that's what you get. And so for me, it's that vernacular. It's not, it's not unique to host the games, it's in everything he writes.

4 (1h 13m 45s):
And, and that's why you there's no, there's no, ad-libbing, there's no riffing. There's no improv improvising upon it. You play the notes. As they're written, you can twist the notes, you can play it like a jazz musician will take the music out frame. You can extend the thing and do this and that and the other. And that's the difference. That's the difference for me when I see somebody who does Mamet and they're doing it, like, it sounds like, like a typewriter income machine and then somebody else who can hopefully make it sing. And that's

2 (1h 14m 19s):
In

4 (1h 14m 19s):
A way exactly. Right. It's stylized realism. And I always tell acting students, and I'll say, sometimes I've seen guys do it. They'll add a fuck you or something. Cause they think it's cool. And I'll say, no, no, you can't do that. I think, well, yeah, but no, no, there's no button. I says you can't do that. I said, because you got to respect him for what he does. This is what he wrote that a certain way. I mean, in all the years, I've known, I've known him for 40 plus years and worked with many, many times. I think twice I've asked him for days. I think in the movie house, the games. In fact, there's a moment when we leave the Western union place after we con bill Macy out of his money.

2 (1h 15m 1s):
Yeah.

4 (1h 15m 2s):
So Lindsay cross and I are walking down the street and I say aligned to her and he, as he wrote it, it was don't trust anyone and all that. It was a one-time. I gave a suggestion to Dave, one of the few, maybe three times in my career. I said, Dave, I said, I just think Mike May CUSO would say don't trust nobody. Even if it makes no sense. And he stopped for a second and I could tell it was very difficult for him to do it, but he said, okay. So that was my one contribution. Like what contribution? But I think he probably went nobody, anyone, three syllables, two syllables.

4 (1h 15m 49s):
Okay. I guess it's okay. But that's what he was like, but he's, he is so brilliant in what he does, you know? And I'm not saying I, that I even love everything he couldn't or does, but that's okay. I don't love everything Shakespeare wrote either, but it's like, but when he's, when he's on, he's on. And it's like, like Glen, Gary, it took me the longest time to even understand what the hell I was saying and then play. Oh yeah. First of all, I'd never lived in a house. My parents had no money. We always lived in apartments. I didn't know what a lead was. I didn't know about real estate. It was like a foreign language. So once, but once I got into it, once I got on that train, once I, in fact, that's a mythical, not mythical kind of story.

4 (1h 16m 35s):
People know that the opening night of Glengarry in Chicago with the Goodman, I went up on the monologue. I totally went up and there was like a minute pause. And William Peterson was playing Lincoln at the time for Chicago production. And I can see he's trembling. He can't help me. He doesn't have a line. And all I wanted to do was lean over and say, it's okay, bill. It's only a play. Literally that speech was such, such a, you know, it's just a stream of consciousness and I was lost as long. And I only got, I, maybe it was a minute into it. And this is opening night. It's were there for me later.

4 (1h 17m 17s):
He said it was the most exciting moment that theater theaters had in his life because he said, that's when you realize this was the real deal. And I figured, so then I said to myself, fuck fucking. I said, I got to, we're going to be, I can't sit here all night and say nothing. The stage manager yelling the lines and it's still not helping because it's. And so I just cut to the end. I go, hi, my name is Richard Roman, what's yours. And so then I figured now intermission comes and I'm thinking, well, I spent been a nice career. You know, I'll chalk this up to experience. Mammut comes. Backstage runs up to me, hugs me, the director hugs me, Lindsay crosses. And she was, he was married to her. Then she hugs me and I'm thinking, well, fuck, I gotta do the second act. I guess, let me just do it. So, I mean, I blistered the second act.

4 (1h 17m 59s):
I noticed that connect is good. Cause I was so pissed at myself and I made a brief mention of it in the review the next day. And Bubba, thank God. The Boston globe had seen one of the previews and that I think which helped why he wanted the Pulitzer because that's how we won. He had wanted to pull it through before we even got the new Yorker. They knew that he was gonna win. But anyway, well that's the point because, and I use this when I speak to classes about, you can take your lowest moment and turn it into your greatest triumph. If you maybe apply yourself, because what happened is the next day Mamet and the director, Greg took me to lunch.

4 (1h 18m 39s):
Cause now they're a little worried, you know, opening night, the guy one southbound and they started St. Joe, how can we help you look at it? I said, look, boys and mammoth talks about, he always brings it up equals w at that lunch, how I went, look, don't worry about it. I got this. There's nothing you can do to help me. This is on me because I'm not used to, I've never gotten growing up. I was like, I'm cocky. You know, don't fuck with me this shit. So I went back to my hotel room and every night, not every night, but I would write out that monologue longhand just from, just write it out. No, that's how I knew that thing backwards and forwards and backwards because I thought to myself, I was cocky.

4 (1h 19m 22s):
What it was is I had gotten through previews and I still didn't quite understand what I was doing, but I kept thinking, it'll come to me, I'll get it. Like I'm playing the moments, but I don't really get it. And I thought, oh, well now all of a sudden I had to get it. Well, I worked on it, worked out, it worked out the rest of the run went fine. We get to New York. And my, you know, that was a whole other experience I felt, I know I've done it enough times in Chicago, I felt in control. And I knew what the first preview we did. The first preview. We had a lot of young people in the audience when I got to that line, after doing that whole model on, Hey, my name's Richard Roma, what's yours, fucking audience. It gave me such power.

4 (1h 20m 3s):
And that, and that character is that kind of guy anyway. And thank God even the Nan should be understood that Well, Nan was smart enough to make didn't. They didn't make me just look good. They bought me $2,000 suit. And so when I put that suit on a costumer, Ricky, Richard Roma, quickie Roma up in the dressing room, I felt like a Matador going to kill the bull. It was like, I am, you know, nobody's gonna fuck with me tonight. You know? And so when I hit that stage, that was that. And so, you know, winning the Tony, of course that's a whole other story. I mean, it was such a thrill because something I never would have imagined that would have happened, but, but when it did, it was like, again, taking it from the lowest moment I've ever had in the theater that opening night in Chicago to the greatest moment I'd have in the theater for this, with the same role.

1 (1h 20m 57s):
Can you imagine, like, I know we need to end, but I just want to say, like, if you had gone off stage at the end at intermission and said, I'm done, I'm not doing this anymore. It's too scary. I screwed it up. Can, I mean, it just, it's a moment. It's like a split second that separates people who are like, you know what, I'm going to get back up and do this shit again, versus people who let their fear and their whatever get them.

4 (1h 21m 23s):
Well, that's the point. I try to make the students when I talk to them or tell them that story. But for me, I had no plan B I go, what am I going to go, go back to Cicero access for you to become a cop, or you became a criminal. You know, you were wondering, those are your two big choices. There was no bookstores. There may still be for all. I know the only bookstore was in the high school. I mean, I'm not saying it's a stupid town, but it is what it is. It's a blue collar working class town. And so no, I had no alternative. This is, this has got to work or I don't know what, you know, I'm back to square one. And so work. I mean, you know, pans out.

2 (1h 22m 2s):
And it's an interesting thought that may be going up is the way that, cause I've, I'm actually remembering that a couple of times that I've gone up. That's when you end up dropping in more.

4 (1h 22m 14s):
I even learned something once one of the performances of Glengarry in New York. Now we're maybe nine months into the show. Prince and Gardenia was now playing Shelly Levine, wonderful actor, the guy from Mo great, tremendous actor. He's doing one of the Shelly Levine, big speeches. Of course, like this is performance number could be 280, you know? So I'm sitting there listening to him and all of a sudden he goes, then my sister, my sister bought a cow. And I remember when she brought that cow and it was like, I'm like looking at the other actors on stage and we're all like, oh yeah, I've seen, I don't remember any line about a sister in a cow, Gary, and he's going, he's going, yeah, my sister, she brought the cow and then we went out to the woods that he stopped anyway.

4 (1h 23m 9s):
And then he picked up right where we're supposed to continued. And we were all like, fuck we run. I mean, you know, we, we went from kind of lackadaisical, like, you know, this is where to groove to like, what is the world gonna explode anyway. So now we cut to the end of the play. Cause there's no way this was in the second act. It doesn't stop for the place I go, what the fuck? And he goes, oh yeah, well, I went up. But so, you know, the best thing to do when you go up, just go with it, you know, talk about what comes into your mind. And eventually he'll get, I don't like to think of is. I wish I had known that. I wish I had learned that trick in Chicago.

1 (1h 23m 52s):
It's amazing because it is. And we talk a lot about on our podcast, moments of greatest sort of fear or chaos can lead to like mirrors and clarity. And that is an amazing story. Thank you for sharing that with us. And thank

2 (1h 24m 8s):
You for being on this podcast.

4 (1h 24m 11s):
No, this is great. I mean, talking to people like yourselves is kind of, for me, I prefer doing this to talking to the New York times or you get it, you know what I mean? You've been on, we've done it similar paths

1 (1h 24m 24s):
And it sends you a letter that says, will you, will you come with me to my, my high school reunion? Because I'm not really going to do that.

4 (1h 24m 34s):
No, my assistant, my assistant's going to actually make a thing. My daughter convinced them to, to make this like a collage of these things. I literally have about 150. And then we, for all over the country, all over the world, I've been invited to graduations in like Germany and Spain and Holland. And that's great. I mean, it's so sweet, but I get it because often it's saying I'm studying criminology now, or I'm going to go, I want to become in the FBI. I want to do this. That's great. So, you know,

2 (1h 25m 3s):
We didn't even talk about Jim Clemente.

4 (1h 25m 6s):
We can do it again. Look, if you guys want to do it again,

2 (1h 25m 9s):
Let's do it again. Cause I didn't even get the chance to talk about our shared Southern Southern Italian family who moved to the Southwest for mining.

1 (1h 25m 17s):
That's exactly what my family did that. Yeah.

4 (1h 25m 22s):
Have you seen the movie? Wait until spring band Dany? No, it's a movie I did. It's a John. You know, John Fanta is the writer. John Fante well, he's pretty anyway, whatever. He's pretty good. At that time, back in the 1980s, he was really big on going to college kids, especially John font that he wrote the dust. Well, whatever Coppola was going to make one. Anyway, I did the first time they made one of his books into a movie it's called wait until spring band Deni. You ought to check it out because it was foreign produced. It was was myself or Nyla, booty and Faye Dunaway are the stars, but it's about the Southern Italian. I played a Southern Italian guy who moves to Rockland, Colorado to work in the coal mines.

4 (1h 26m 8s):
And then, but then I may a stone Mason. Anyway, you'll see it. It's just what you're talking about.

2 (1h 26m 15s):
I have to have you back.

4 (1h 26m 17s):
I'll be glad to do it again. I

2 (1h 26m 19s):
Really appreciate it. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina <inaudible> are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina Kalichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?