Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin.
And here's your friend, Rob.
Rob: I'm your friend and your friend Kevin.
Kevin: We are talking about Discovery season five, episode six, Whistlespeak.
Rob: We are definitely speaking about that.
And we are going to then spark off into conversations about a
broader theme connected with this episode with the Star Trek universe.
Kevin: And this week takes us to a primitive culture, which is something
I feel like we haven't done in a little while, certainly in, in modern Star Trek,
like the, let's go undercover and pretend we don't have tricorders in our pockets.
Rob: It's definitely a big part of classic Trek.
Um, haven't seen it for quite some time, that's for sure.
Kevin: I think I will look back on this episode and remember
it as the fun run episode.
Rob: The deadly fun run!
I don't know if it's, uh, sending the right message about fun runs.
Kevin: It wasn't that fun.
I mean, the hallucinations were cool, but I could, I, I would prefer
to be able to drink the water.
Rob: Uh, what did you get out of this episode, Kevin?
Kevin: Look, I, I think I liked this more than I disliked this.
I like the elements.
I like the, the, the undercover setting.
I like the setup on the planet of just, you know, one pocket
of livable space remaining.
I like the whistlespeak and the fact that from the moment we beam
down, it really feels like an alien planet, and an alien culture.
They speak in whistles and then they speak in, in translated English.
But even then, the patterns of, of speech are very different.
They use different metaphors and different, uh, colloquialisms
and it all, it feels very rich.
But, you know, as the episode wears on, it all kind of starts
to drop away and, and thin out.
And it, it becomes a fun run.
It becomes a, you know, an engineering puzzle where we swap some isolinear
chips and solve the puzzle.
A lot of the trappings that are, that feel so rich at the start of
the episode don't really amount to much by the end of the episode.
Like the whistlespeak, the titular whistlespeak is used in one, like it's
set up, it's used in the very next scene, and then we never see it again.
And I feel like so much of this episode has that feeling of
it's, it's form over function.
Rob: Yeah, and it was that case of bringing it back at the end, once
everything is solved, it goes to like a voiceover and a shot of the
planet and with the whistlespeak there, they have that moment of, yeah,
we've done something special here.
And I'm there going, I don't think you've really earned that.
You did the really cool stuff at the start, and then you went to, you know,
the generic format of a primitive civilization who's been, you know,
who's bastardized or been bastardized by this technology type stuff.
And that, they pushed it so hard, it's in the title.
It would have been great for that to be at the forefront.
Kevin: But ultimately, like, this is an episode that's carried by
the charm of Tilly and Burnham working together on their mission,
and that mostly works for me.
It carried me along, and I enjoyed my time with this episode.
It's just not quite as special as I thought it was going to be ten minutes in.
Rob: Burnham and Tilly obviously have been there since the beginning.
So that relationship has developed over years and years and years.
But there's a lot of stuff in here about the Prime Directive, and stuff like
that, and normally it's a lot more of a discussion and a debate, and that's
the great thing about Star Trek, it can always be this debate of what happens,
but sadly with this one, Burnham went, no, we're breaking it, we're saving
Tilly, we're doing it straight away.
No debate at all, or anything like that, it's just a case of, it doesn't
even pass Burnham's mind, there's no conflict for Burnham at all.
I'm going, I'm breaking this rule and I don't care.
Kevin: At least it's mentioned.
I mean, that is also original series Star Trek, is someone will mention the Prime
Directive, and Kirk will say, I hear ya.
Rob: Well, it was interesting, interesting going back and I mean, I don't want
to jump ahead, but from what I've seen of the episodes that I've watched
in relation to this from a certain classical era, um, from one episode to
the next, from each, from one series to the next, it isn't really defined.
Kevin: No it's very inconsistent.
Is it you don't make contact?
Is it you don't reveal your tech, your level of technology?
Is it you just don't interfere with their development, but you can tell them
exactly who you are and where you're from?
Rob: It doesn't even seem to be defined as that title that we know it as in one of
the episodes and then it's established and lore and canon within the next episode.
So, yes, again, it was just a case of, they needed to get to the planet to
do the thing, and the only inhabitable place is covered by this shield, but
they can't get through to it, so they need to go to the technology that's
hidden, that is disguised as a tree, as a fallen rock type thing, fallen tree rock
Kevin: Yeah, follow the blue
Rob: the blue moss,
Kevin: your, with your eyeball
Rob: So Tilly does the fun run to distract everyone so Burnham can do it, but then
the, the fun run is actually, yeah, who's the most worthy to be sacrificed?
Wah wah.
Kevin: Did you, I, I didn't quite follow, what is the purpose of the fun run?
I mean, I got the fact that they were sacrificing themselves unnecessarily.
That is a ritual they made up is, and at the end of the fun run, you go
into the killer silo and it kills you.
And we learn that that was always unnecessary.
But what was the necessary part of the fun run?
Did it do anything?
Rob: It is, like, it's, it's, it's established as an honor, it's established
as you need to earn the right to be sacrificed, To be, you know, to
appease their, their gods, and so
Kevin: Yeah, but did it trigger the rain generation or the atmospheric,
uh, no, it didn't do anything,
Rob: Nope, nope, they just, they just, they just did a fun run.
that was
Kevin: It's, uh, it's a Your Civilization is Stupid episode,
of which there are many,
Rob: many, many episodes.
Yes, yes, this is particularly
Kevin: The Prime Directive doesn't apply because your civilization is stupid.
Rob: think that's, that's a byline.
That's definitely, um, uh, that's a footnote that added in very small print
going, however, if your civilization is stupid, prime directive does not apply.
Kevin: Meanwhile, we had Rayner on the bridge coaching Adira into supporting
the landing party, and Adira showing some nerves and going, uh, I'm not
ready for this, but ultimately saving the day by guiding, Burnham's repair
of the holographic thingamabob.
Rob: Yeah, now like, as someone who has watched season four, have
we not already gone through this?
Like, Adira's been here for, this is their fourth time, you know, or
third or fourth season here within Star Trek, and they're still getting
the nerves about being on the bridge.
They've been on the bridge before.
Kevin: Yeah, it was strange.
This is, I feel like this is, in so many ways, what keeps
happening to Adira's character.
They keep making them less capable, more stammery, more self doubting, and when
you go back and see them in their very first appearance in the series, they're
actually quite, uh, confident, and capable, and efficient, and, and so much
of that, I want to say Starfleet's been a terrible influence on this, this person.
Rob: I'd say it's just the Discovery crew, I think, they're,
they're, it's a toxic environment.
So, that's why, that's why Rayner's there to, to sort them out and go, snap
out of it, they've been a bad influence on you, they've made you devolve.
Kevin: I mean, they are effectively sacrificing the sense of the
character story of Adira in favor of the arc of growth of Rayner.
Like, this was all in service of, can Rayner give a pep talk on the
bridge to, uh, someone and help them help bring out their best.
I feel like that was the purpose of this plot line here, but it was
done effectively sacrificing the Adira character, who is also a
Johnny come lately to this series.
Like, these are two characters who were added in late seasons of
Discovery, one being sacrificed on the altar of the other.
Rob: As we've been talking about, with their final season, instead of elevating
one of their supporting cast that have been there this whole time we can find
out more about them, that brought in this new character of Rayner, instead
of sort of like elevating one of their regulars who had no character development,
and as you've just said, bringing in that character to make their character
arc shine a bit more, they've devolved one of the regular characters that
they've had for the last three seasons.
I'm going,
Kevin: Yep, yep.
Rob: Yep, yep, yep.
Now, and there's also been a little bit more development with the doctor,
which has gone into more than I thought it would be yeah, sorta like, which
any other Star Trek series would be, uh, it's happened and it's moved on,
which has happened in Deep Space Nine.
But Hugh has been deeply affected by this, you know, uh, Trill ritual
where, um, a Trill persona has, you know, taken over his body.
In previous episodes, like in Deep Space Nine, where this has
happened, they've gone, Yeah, we've just carried on as normal, but,
Kevin: I'm glad they're going back to the resurrection because, I mean, that, that
was definitely something that happened.
Rob: He died.
He be killed, and he be coming back.
Kevin: As I remember it, they, they, the show killed him off.
And then the fans said, so you killed off the one of the two
gay characters in your show.
You're telling a tragedy about a gay couple who gets separated by death.
That seems a little cliche.
They said, oh, we know what we're doing.
Don't worry.
Don't worry, we hear you.
We are very sensitive to these things.
We know exactly what we're
Rob: doing.
Kevin: And in hindsight, I think at the time they went, Oh crap!
We did that!
What were we thinking?
Quick!
Call him back!
Get him on the line!
Pay him whatever it takes!
We'll bring him back!
I don't know!
We'll make him of mushrooms or something!
Rob: We've had Tardigrades, now let's have Mushrooms.
That's the arc of season 2, mushrooms.
Kevin: So yes, his return seemed very slapped together and, and half explained.
And they did, you know, they played with the fact that he was
back, but was he really himself?
Was he still able to love Stamets?
Did he, was he still the same person who wanted the same things?
Rob: And they had to go find his personality in that alternate,
like, his body was there but his real him was somewhere else and
Kevin: The way I remember it is they found him and then they brought him back into
the mushroom body, but who remembers, Rob?
Who remembers?
They did a little bit with it, but it was all very hand wavy and unexplainy y and to
their credit, they are at least making the attempt to have that, um, that history,
convoluted as it is, and the, this, this show is doing this on so many levels
as they are going, all of that nonsense happened and we are going to continue to
reference it and continue to use it in our stories, whether it makes sense or not.
Rob: And we've talked about before, the more you lean into the continuity
that's been established, and you say it out loud in the show,
Kevin: Yeah,
Rob: it doesn't help you justify what you're doing, it actually
makes it more ridiculous.
Um, but yeah, it seems, like a lot of these supporting characters,
it's, it's the Doctor going, No, I, I want to have some attention, dammit.
So, I've been killed, I've been brought back, I've been possessed
by a Trill person, and I want to have a story arc, and if
Kevin: Let's it about me for one minute, okay?
came back to life!
Rob: Every other supporting character should, should be having this moment
going, Hang on, it's our final season.
Burnham's been getting every bit of attention.
I want some attention.
I was in this, you know, my so called life, dammit.
Anthony Rapp going, I'm a Broadway star, dammit.
I was in the original Rent!
Kevin: I've been wearing this lizard mask for three seasons
and only now am I getting lines.
Rob: Don't bring any new characters.
No, no, no.
You've got everything you need here.
Kevin: So yes.
It is strange that Culber is spiraling in this spiritual crisis as a result
of the ritual on Trill when He was previously resurrected and, that contrast
between those two experiences for this character, but I guess, you know, I'd
rather have character development than not, so I'm, I'm kind of on board for it.
Rob: And fair enough too.
Yeah, he does seem to be talking to everyone.
He seems to be having multiple confidants, like talking with Book
and Tilly and other people as well.
Uh, so yes, it's, um, uh, we shall see where it goes.
Kevin: I want to think that this, this idea that Culber got resurrected and is
now asking spiritual questions, it might connect to this idea that the Progenitors'
tech can bring people back to life.
Rob: You have brought that up before.
Kevin: Yeah, but it feels like there is at least a theme
going through those two ideas.
Rob: It has been mentioned before, it was like rather pointed with uh, they're
talking about the Progenitors' tech and um, I believe it was Anthony Rapp
pushed it quite hard of going bring back living flesh and tissue, huh?
Kevin: I'm reminded of Spock dying and coming back to life.
And, uh, and, you know, it eventually just became kind of a joke line
where he goes, I've been dead before.
You know?
Rob: Exactly,
Kevin: I wonder if we'll get there with Culber.
Oh, yeah.
I've died before.
It's no big
Rob: it's no big deal.
No big deal.
It's like, they'll just bring Picard's body back as opposed to the, you know,
synthetic form that he is right now.
Kevin: But let's uh, let's hop in our transporter and go looking at
some other times in Star Trek history where technology has been blended
into a primitive culture in some way.
In this case, it was a Denobulan scientist that, uh, secretly saved their planet from
the drying, but we've seen other examples of, you know, technology blended in a bit.
And, uh, when I went looking for these, I really, uh, I found
a lot in the original series.
Like, this feels like one of the original ideas of Star Trek the
franchise is, uh, you know, visiting more primitive civilizations.
Rob: And how they've been affected by the advancement of technology, which
is very much on brand with the 60s sci fi show is looking at, sure, if we get
this advanced technology, what does that mean for us as humanity or civilizations
or how can that be exploited?
And a lot of talk about, you know, how technology evolves and
grows, over decades and centuries.
How does that, because cultures are affected.
Does that affect a computer program?
Does that affect, you know, technology?
Does it wear does it evolve?
Does it change?
It's very, very, does it just repeat the same cycle?
Kevin: So what do you want to talk about first?
Rob: Well, I will, direct you to the original series, season 2, episode
9, uh, a rather contentious episode within the Star Trek world that's
either loved or reviled, uh, The Apple.
Kevin: The Apple, yes.
Vaal, the big, uh, the big, uh, lizard head thing,
Rob: Big lizard heads that's, uh, that is, uh, that is, the big surprise
is it is a computer, um, that is programming these, uh, these life forms
that don't age, that um, but don't love, don't have physical contact.
Sort of like a slave to Vaal, but um, but they're healthy.
And so the debate is within the, the, the top three,
especially with McCoy and Spock.
McCoy's going, these people are slaves, uh, and Spock goes, well actually
they're being treated quite well, they're healthy, they're, you know,
they seem to be happy with their life.
Kevin: Does the Prime Directive apply, or is their civilization stupid?
Rob: This is where, yeah, I don't actually hear them say
the Prime Directive here at all.
They talk about we
Kevin: No, they, they mentioned the non interference directive.
Rob: Non interference directive.
So it hasn't been clearly defined even like nine episodes into the second season.
Kevin: Right at the start, Kirk cites their orders and says, this is a
primitive Culture, but there are strange readings, so Starfleet wants us to contact
the inhabitants out what's going on.
So, this is right away a very different Prime Directive than
later on when we're dressing up in costume and pretending we're from
the eastern, uh, lands, you know?
Rob: We come from the east.
Kevin: Very east!
You just keep going straight east, east!
Straight east and eventually you get to Starfleet headquarters.
Rob: I mean, there's a high body count.
There's a lot of redshirts killed in this episode.
I think
Kevin: they beam down, they beam down three red shirts, then the
landing party steps aside and then McCoy beams down with two more red
Rob: shirts.
You're going, Oh, this is.
Yeah, my naive self went, Oh, wow, we're gonna learn a lot about all
these characters at the moment.
No, we
Kevin: Well, we learned one of them's cousin helped Kirk
get into Starfleet Academy or
Rob: There we go, yep.
So, one gets hit with poison darts from a flower.
And the others get knocked off in quick succession.
Kevin: There's the landmine rocks and then there's the lightning.
Rob: This is a Chekov on an away mission, um, but no Sulu in this episode or Uhura.
Kevin: No, they're left behind on the ship.
Rob: And Kirk's got his, uh, wraparound green,
Kevin: Yeah, the thing, I like that uniform, but it's, it's never stopped
bothering me that he doesn't have an insignia on his chest because it's
wrapped around his waist instead.
Rob: And it's, and it's on an, and it's on a, like, on a 90 degree angle.
Kevin: It's like, he said, I'm wearing my badge as a belt
buckle and nothing can stop
Rob: You can't stop it.
I'm the captain.
Kevin: Yeah, I like it.
I don't mind it at all.
There's a long tradition of captains wearing a slightly special
uniform and it started here.
Rob: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Um, so we have Chekov here and he is very frisky.
He is
Kevin: whole character in this episode.
Rob: just horny the whole episode.
All he wants is like, and, and literally there is only one woman who's been
beamed down and apparently this is the woman that, despite how utterly
sleazy and utterly repulsive a lot of his behavior is, I don't know from
any lens, she gets it, she digs it.
I'm there going, really?
Kevin: You know, at least it seems mutual.
I get the sense that they've been dating for a while and they are
very excited to have been assigned to the same landing party for once.
Rob: Sure someone's died, but we've got some time alone.
Kevin: We've all been there in the workplace romance where,
you know, you steal some time in the hallway between meetings.
Chekov and and his lady love are doing here.
Rob: Go into the photocopy room and discuss reams of paper.
Yeah, I know what you're
Kevin: Exactly.
Rob: So, yes, so everything seems to be pleasant, and then it's
deadly, and then it's pleasant again, but then it's deadly again.
Kevin: And Kirk's second guessing himself the whole way.
And fair enough too.
I, uh, the moment one of my people was insta killed by a
plant, I would have beamed up too.
Rob: Yeah, just go!
Why are they still there?
Kevin: Yeah.
This was a bad idea.
Let's come back with armor.
Rob: And Spock gets a lot of pain.
He gets hit by the flowers, he gets shot at by Vaal, gets electrocuted,
he gets, he is, he has gone through the ringer in this one.
Kevin: I remembered Spock being, like, out of commission towards the end of this
episode, or at least the worse for wear.
And so when he got hit by the flower, I was like, ah, that's it.
This is what will have Spock, you know, laid up for the rest of the
episode, so that the rest of the people have to get by without him.
But, no, he pops right up a few seconds later.
And he's back in action until the next unfortunate event.
Rob: It is a series of unfortunate events.
Lemony Snicket would be very impressed.
Kevin: But uh, yeah, I have to say, like, despite the, the, the corniness
or the jankiness of these early Star Trek episodes, if we look at this
through the lens of, of technology blended into a primitive society,
find this really interesting.
Like the, the aliens act alien.
And you know, it is very clunky, the whole, children?
What is that word, children?
Love?
We know not of your alien love.
You know, there is lot of that 60s stuff going on.
But it, it is in service of a picture of this, despite what McCoy says,
living, arguably thriving, uh, culture that just has figured out a very
different way to exist than what the Federation and Starfleet are used to.
Rob: Yeah, I did keep on yelling in support at the screen when um, and for
it to be done in the 60s episode, I'm just, just shows the bounds forward
it made within the restrictions of the social norms at that time.
The, the fact that they actually had the debate where McCoy is there going
this is wrong, this isn't humanity, this isn't anything like that, and
Spock rightly says, Doctor, there are more than just one type of, you
know, creature in this universe, and you know, humanity is, is not the
Kevin: Who are you to say?
Why, why are you applying your standards to this, this group of
people halfway across the galaxy?
Rob: Exactly, and I'm there going, yes, that's good, that's actually, well done,
you know what, Star Trek, I think you've got a future ahead of you, well done.
Kevin: I think this episode gets a bad rap because, you know,
the costumes are a little silly.
The, the lizard head made of papier maché is certainly very silly.
Spock getting zotted by lightning and doing a flip is very, very silly.
Rob: The high redshirt body count.
Kevin: On the surface, this is a silly episode that is not to
be taken seriously, but I think there's a lot of meat on this bone.
Rob: There is, and I mean, I'm, I find it quite charming, we talked about like
those very 60's old fashioned ways of What is this thing called children?
Love?
I do comprehend.
I find that endearing, that whole case going, really teaching an audience who
has never seen this style of science fiction before on a weekly basis, to,
they really were trying hard to appeal to the wagon train, Western audience
of the 60s who are watching Bonanza or Rifleman or whatever and going no, no, no.
You can feel safe here.
But you know, this is what science fiction is.
It's really science fiction 101 going this is a different race.
They don't even what love is.
Kevin: Yeah, there a Lower Decks episode waiting to happen here to go
back and see what happened to these poor people that that, you know, the
crew of the Enterprise completely upset their civilization and said, Ah,
just keep going the way you're going.
You'll figure it out and bye bye'd off at the end, engaged in some light workplace
bullying of Spock in the corridor at the end of the episode and then they're done.
Rob: Yeah, just throwing in the word Satan.
And they're going
Kevin: I really love that Spock says, I think we did the wrong thing here.
I think this whole episode might have been a terrible mistake.
Kirk and Bones go, dude, chill out.
You're taking this too seriously.
And what's with your ears?
Your ears are ridiculous.
End of episode.
Like, there's, there's, Lower Decks is certainly doing this, but looking
back on this show, you can imagine that this is, this is a cautionary
tale: this crew of the Enterprise bumbling through the galaxy, wrecking
every civilization in their path, and, uh, and having no regrets about it.
Like they are the villains at the end of this episode through a certain lens.
Rob: Was, it was really close to being, oh, just lighten up, poindexter!
You know four eyes,
Kevin: It totally was
Rob: Go tell the dean what's been going on!
Yeah, and I mean, they, they're going, sure, we'll introduce you to
physical intimacy, but we are not giving you any education about it.
We're not giving you any pamphlets, no, no, videos or anything, so,
there's, there, that, that society's gonna be ripe with, uh, love.
They'll figure it out as they go along.
Everyone knows how to do it.
Kevin: Yeah.
Everyone knows.
Rob: One thing I forgot to mention.
They mentioned money.
That's how ill defined this second season
Kevin: Yes!
Yeah, do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you?
And he starts saying
Rob: He starts, he does it for a gag.
It's a gag.
It's a great gag.
It's a very classic gag.
Do you know how much money?
Of course I do.
It's this money.
All right, all right, all right.
It's old school vaudeville comedy stuff.
So they don't clearly define the prime directive.
It's just the non interference thing.
And this one, they're talking about money.
Kevin: Yeah, yeah.
Oh, wow.
I'm sure there was a scribbled note from Gene Roddenberry in the margins saying,
money doesn't exist in our future.
And someone
Rob: Somebody's going, yeah, but there's a good gag.
Kevin: It's a great joke.
Rob: joke.
So yeah, just wanted to mention that.
That's one thing that stood out.
I went, they're talking about money.
It's a good gag, but they're talking about money.
Kevin: You had another TOS episode on your
Rob: I did, I did.
From the simple title of two words, The Apple, we go to season three,
episode ten, and one of the longest titles in the history of the universe.
For the world is hollow, and I have touched the sky.
Kevin: I love those, I love those kind of
Rob: Better, it's a lot better than the original title which they took
from, uh, mishearing the Jimi Hendrix song, Excuse Me While I Kiss This Guy.
Which is, I think, a far better lyric than, you know, excuse
me, while I you know, anyway.
Kevin: There are a bunch of these, these kind of very literate titles in Star
Trek, especially in the original series.
I remember when I was a young boy watching this, I thought, that must be a reference
to something that I just don't know.
But no, they just, they got flowery with their titles back then.
Rob: Yeah, and it's like incorporated into, like, one of the, uh, the
old character who says the line.
So it does give this of, ooh, is that a quote from something?
No, no, no, they're just quoting themselves.
Um, but this felt very much for me like, you know, the Star, the
classic Star Trek that everyone remembers, I do in inverted commas.
This is what everyone makes fun of.
So everyone is in their rightful place here and dressed accordingly
with their insignias, not on a jaunty angle near near the waistline.
So Kirk's in his, in his, um, in his proper outfit.
Chekov and Sulu, uh, you know, at the, on the bridge, you know, flying the ship.
Uhura's there in the background being wasted and just
looking very, very pensive.
Um, all three of our leads go down.
You've got Chapel in there as well.
And you've got Scotty, not Uhura, in charge of the ship while, um, while
they're down on an away mission.
So this
Kevin: Yeah, this is peak original series.
Rob: Peak original yes, that is everything.
It's the format that we've all, you know, assumed happened right
from the get go, but it took time to evolve to get to that point.
Um, And this again is another episode in this similar style of seemingly primitive
culture, but how much is primitive, how much is, uh, controlled, how much is, uh,
yeah, is their evolution being stifled?
Already, it's like It's a civilization, a ship within an
asteroid and it's not a planet.
It's a, it's an illusion of um, what they think it is.
They're on a mission, a journey of a thousand year trek through the
solar but they actually had it.
Their, their ship asteroid is heading toward a planet that
will kill billions of people.
Kevin: I'm reminded of that, uh, Strange New Worlds episode with the, the asteroid
going towards the planet and it turning out at the end that the asteroid was
on the right course the whole time, and the flyby, the close call with
this planet was actually part of the
Rob: the plan.
Kevin: and, and I wondered if that would be the same for this, uh, Fabrini asteroid
ship, that the, the planet Daran Four that I think they are hurtling towards.
I was like, who's to say that's not their destination?
Uh, but yeah, and it turns out it did need a course correction in the end.
I did talk about this episode with Jason Snell on episode 11 of Subspace
Radio, In love with an alien.
About McCoy falling in love with Natira here, but there's certainly
lots more to discuss about this, this primitive culture on this hollow
Rob: There is so much to discuss like within the first two
minutes we find out that McCoy is going to be dead within a year.
He's having a rather genuine and heartfelt and quite, you know, uh, gutting
um, argument with, uh, with Chapel.
Uh, he does his usual 60s white man of, yeah, I'm still going to
carry on, you know, stiff upper lip.
But there's a beautiful, really leans into, for me, it's the first time
I've seen the three relationship of McCoy, Spock, and Kirk, what I grew
up with in the movies, I see it here
Kevin: Exactly.
When Spock puts his hand on his shoulder, and it's like, I can't say what I mean.
But I'm still going to, you know, signal what I mean.
It's
Rob: McCoy can't say how he, what he means with what the look means, what he
Kevin: It's, it's anti Discovery, Rob.
I know, I understand fully now why you respond so violently to
Discovery, where everyone says what they're feeling at all times.
It is the opposite here.
They're completely bottled up and dysfunctional people, but it is
Rob: It's charming as heck and just to have Kirk go I've told Spock.
And they're just, look, they say nothing, but they say everything.
Um, but yes, uh, uh, McCoy goes through a lot here.
He's gonna die, he instantly falls in love with someone while he's
having a fistfight with someone in pajamas and a very pretty hat.
Um, the hats are so
Kevin: Look, that guy in pajamas was carrying a sword.
He wasn't using it as a sword, but he was
Rob: He was just holding it for somebody else I think.
think it was somebody.
I'm just here, I'm just, I'm literally the spear carrier.
Um, and instantly falls in love with this lady and she seems to have fallen smitten
for him as well like within five seconds.
Kevin: Yeah, it's pretty fast.
They have one conversation about, um, how did the oracle punish the old man?
Wow, you're so amazing.
I'm in love with you forever.
Rob: So hot.
That's so hot.
Um, and I love the, the way that Star Trek original series does love at first sight.
It literally has a, a reaction shot of McCoy looking stunned, horrified, like
he's just stepped on a thorn or something.
I'm going, all right, okay, how love at first sight.
Kevin: Is there a woman for you, McCoy?
What?
Rob: So yes, and of course there is a omnipotent creature that is controlling
this, this culture, and it has
Kevin: Presumably a computer or an artificial intelligence of some kind.
It's never made completely
Rob: But yes, the, the society is restricted by the orders that this
so-called computer gives, and at the
Kevin: The oracle.
Rob: The Oracle, uh, which is a, a, you know, a very impressive
block of, uh, paper mache,
Kevin: Yeah, they had their fake marble down pat in this episode.
Rob: But no flashing lights, like at least with Vaal we had the flashing
lights of the snake eyes, but this had
Kevin: No, all the flashing lights were hidden behind the altar in the computer
Rob: That's right.
And we just had um, just a simple spaceship just needed
to be fixed and Spock was able just to change the alignment.
One of the thrusters wasn't working, turn it back on and uh, change
correction, Derek 7 or whatever the planet was called, is saved and yeah.
Will this society evolve or not?
No, they're carrying on with their journey, and possibly in a year when
they reach the place they need to go, McCoy might go and join his love.
Kevin: The, um, the ambiguous technology level on board this
asteroid ship really fascinates me.
Like, they have artificial lighting, they have sliding doors, but they carry swords.
this instrument of obedience that she just kind of like, it's a bar of soap
that she presses to McCoy's temple, but it, it implants a device into their head.
Rob: The skin flashes red.
Kevin: She's talking to a computer, she presses the planets on the altar
and it goes, shhhhhh, and it slides up.
And this feels like a fiction that is not fully thought out to me.
Either that, or these people are the most deeply uncurious, uh, culture
that I've ever heard of, and maybe I am judging them by my human standards, Rob.
But the idea that you could be surrounded by these automated systems that make
your life comfortable and easy, and not understand how any of them work.
Like, what do these people do all day, asides from walk around these corridors
and bow at each other, that they aren't trying to recreate this technology,
pulling it apart to find out how it works.
Instead, they are just waiting to be let off at their planet, and it, this
does feel like a dead culture to me, if that is truly how they're existing.
Rob: They're passing each other swords, Kevin.
That's,
they're filling their days with going, look, I've been holding
this sword for a little bit.
How about you hold this sword for a little bit more?
Thank you, I'd really appreciate it.
Um, once I'm done holding it, I may pass it back to you, if that's okay.
That's, that, I don't, if that's not a living, thriving
culture, Kevin, I don't what is.
Kevin: I mean, I'm sure there is, there is art aplenty happening and maybe
that's what they're doing all day is they're writing symphonies and operas and
performing great plays to each other in the rec room and no one is, no one, is
too concerned about how the doors open and close in this place where they live.
But, uh, yeah, it is very strange to me, the primitive culture trapped
in a bubble of high technology that they don't understand.
Rob: Yes, I mean, it did seem to be, like, previously with The Apple, there wasn't,
um any real drama going on outside.
So the characters were there just to be, you know, a conduit for this
civilization of Vaal and all the people on board, on this planet.
Whereas, with this one, because they had that personal drama of McCoy, and that
personal drama of Kirk and Spock dealing with that, um, the actual civilization
didn't have much time to grow.
I mean, we didn't get much of Vaal's disciples, we had our lead character
and the young couple who like to perv on Chekov and, uh, the Ensign making out.
Um, you know,
Kevin: No judgment.
No
Rob: No judgement here.
Um, whereas here we only really get to know McCoy's love interest as a character.
We the old man who's killed off very quickly, but every other character is
just a, you know, a glorified extra.
So we don't see, as we say, yeah, we got a little bit of, at least in The
Apple of how the young, the young couple interact and how that affects their
culture and their interaction the leader.
Whereas here we have none of that.
We have no moments of, it's always, she's there to service McCoy's, um,
desire for, you know, what he's going to do with the last year of his life.
Kevin: Yeah.
I might take us to one more if you don't mind, I was inspired by this idea of
a culture that doesn't understand the fishbowl they've been placed by, uh,
a, a technologically superior culture.
And it reminded me of the premiere of Star Trek: Voyager, Caretaker, uh, we
get to meet the Ocampa, and they are under the protection of The Caretaker,
who we learn throughout this two part episode, they accidentally kind of
poisoned the atmosphere of their planet.
And this is the debt that can never be repaid.
Part of the attempt to repay that debt is The Caretaker created this
underground city of high technology that is supplied energy from its
array and there are replicators that create food and there are again there
are sliding doors and escalators that people go up and down and it all looks
like, you know, white polished marble.
And the people who live there don't understand how any of it works.
They talk about how they've lived in this city for five hundred generations, and
they used to be this thriving culture that was in full command of their cognitive
abilities that are now kind of lost to myth and legend, because of the influence
of this superior culture that is, was, doing its best to look after them, but
in a way, uh, stunted their development and even caused them to regress.
So yeah, the Kes who, who joins the crew of Voyager on their journey at the start
of their, this series is kind of one of the few Ocampa, who is dissatisfied
with living in this bubble, and they're growing their own fruits and vegetables,
uh, kind of in, in violation of tradition, and she finds a way outside of the
force field that keeps them penned in.
It feels very parallel to me to The World is Hollow and I Have Touched the
Sky where like these, we know better, um, high technology beings try to look
after a more primitive culture and, and do it a disservice in the process.
So if anything, I think this is an argument for Kirk's throw a
grenade and then walk away attitude towards more primitive cultures.
It does seem to go better when they're left to figure it out for themselves.
Rob: Yeah, definitely.
I mean, this was the, the launch of the brave new series and, um, uh, and they're
just going, let's, let's set the table up.
All right.
We've got the Curzon.
They're going to be the new Klingons.
We've got the Ocampa.
They're going to be an awesome, exciting series that we're going
to see, uh, creature, species we're going to see as well.
Everything's going to work.
And then they go, Oh, actually the, uh,
Kevin: We have to fly away
Rob: The Kazons are very, very dull and boring, and oh, the Ocampa, uh,
yeah, they probably just should have been a one episode thing, but we've
got to go through Kes for longer yeah, it's, it's like, yeah, you know what
the crazy thing is about the Ocampans?
They have a shorter lifespan.
It is that wonderful moment as well when they actually meet the Caretaker
and the Cartaker's set up a really, you know, a, a familiar looking
1950s, sixties farm yard type thing.
And I love that about Star Trek when it comes to something that
we know, like a familiar porch and, you know, uh, you know,
Kevin: A banjo.
Rob: Yeah, and a banjo playing,
Kevin: Corn on the cob.
Anyone for corn on the cob?
Rob: But, you know, to have our Starfleet people in uniform come down
and everything is cautious and strange and weird, um, whereas, you know, if
it was Yeah, where someone from, you know, the original series, uh, Kirk
would have come down and go, Corn?
I'm bang up for corn.
All right, let's do this stuff.
And Spock be there Captain, it's not logical for you to be eating corn in
such a manner without knowing the full.
And then, of course, McCoy would go, Oh, you green bodded alien.
You're so alien.
Why don't you be more like us?
And they all go, Yes, you should be.
Anyway,
Kevin: At the end of the episode, Janeway has a, has a quiet
conversation with the dying Caretaker.
Uh, and the, the Caretaker is arguing for the fact that he's set his array
to self destruct after he dies because the, the, his technology can't fall
into the hands of the Kazon who would harm the Ocampa that he's looking after.
And yet the Ocampa only have five years of energy stored up at this point.
So they are, they are kind of screwed.
Uh, in their little bubble under the ground.
And Janeway says, have you considered letting the Ocampa care for themselves?
And the Caretaker goes, they're children.
And Janeway says, children have to grow up.
And, uh, I think that's a really nice kind of button on this theme of,
are primitive people to be sheltered or left to their own devices?
Should they be protected, even by the Prime Directive?
Or should we let it, let them work it out for themselves?
You know, go and say hi, say, hey, I'm Captain Kirk, I'm from the
Federation, and I bring you sex.
Uh, see ya!
Rob: Here's a Russian and a blonde to get you going.
Come on!
Um, but it is that evolution which I really appreciate because in the original
series episodes, it's, they don't even consider giving the computer or the
program any type of personality, really.
It kind of just goes through this system and it needs to be
che like, the big ending of The Apple is, let's destroy Vaal.
They literally, they just blow up the computer, um, and with, you know, excuse
me while I, uh, touch the sky from the hollow ground that is my feet, uh,
they just go, oh, well, well, there's a malfunction, here we go, blip,
blip, blip, blop, blop, it's fixed.
But to have this philosophical debate of going, is what you're doing right or
wrong, and for them to go, this is why I do it, and then to have Janeway go, no.
I think you're not looking at this, you know, species completely fairly.
You probably let them grow up and trust that they can look after themselves.
Or at least try to.
That type of stuff shows the evolution from the 60s to the 90s of going, it's
not just a black and white thing of, that's a bad robot, and let's either
kill it or reprogram it to going, this, this species needs to be, you
know, whatever is controlling this lesser, lesser, I do it in inverted
commas, have the discussion at least.
Kevin: The other thing that stood out to me in this rewatch of Caretaker
was, uh, they dropped this bit of information that The Caretaker has
been bringing ships there for months.
And Neelix says maybe 50, maybe 50 times he's heard this story of a, of
a ship brought from far away that is now stranded by the Caretaker's array.
And,
it never occurred to me before, but it occurred to me this time.
If there are 50 ships in Voyager's situation, why aren't they like
meeting each other and teaming up?
Rob: What a,
Kevin: it feels like a particularly, um,
Rob: Wouldn't that have been story arc to incorporate over seven seasons?
Kevin: Yeah, yeah.
And it's so strange.
It, like, in hindsight, it feels like a symptom of the American exceptionalism
of the nineties that was, that was in the zeitgeist at the time that Voyager
behaved very much as I can imagine the United States behaving, is like,
Oh, wow, something has happening to the entire world, but America will
find its way out of it alone, uh, rather than let's, let's team up and
maybe we can figure this out together.
Rob: And it is that case of what we've talked about before is, after the heavily
serialized nature and quite innovative story arcs of Deep Space Nine, which had
never been done before, which, um, even some of the production people didn't
really want to have happen so much, but it did, and it made it what it is, um,
There was sort of like a reaction to that by going, okay, let's go back to
that episodical type thing, so, using that element of, there have been 50
ships before, in modern, television storytelling, or streaming storytelling,
or even in Deep Space Nine, the writers would identify that as going, that
is something we can come back to.
That is something we build and play with.
That is something that will create something unique for this show.
Kevin: As much as Voyager felt like it was scraping the bottom of the barrel
for story ideas at several points in its run, the fact that they never came
back to that idea, that there were 49, 48 other ships, uh, from other parts of
the galaxy, trying to make their way home from the Caretaker's array, like, yeah,
I'm sure most of them were, flying in a different direction from Voyager and we'd
never see them again, but there was room for a story of the week of encountering
another ship that, you know, arrived in, in the Delta Quadrant a few months before
Voyager and, and got stuck along the way.
And what does Voyager do about that?
Rob: Yeah, it just seemed like a plot point.
Well, it was a plot point, where they're going, that's a whole show.
Arc that could be explored to make this show even more unique just like
we've talked about before of how does it affect, uh, a starship when you
have a limited amount of resources and you have a finite number of crew.
What does that mean for the people you have?
And it was always put in the background of going, Oh, we've had
to recycle the water a 17th time or down on rations for a 15th time.
Just as a, as a side note, as opposed to, no, this is building something new within
our, within our known, um, universe.
So yeah, missed opportunity, definitely.
Kevin: Uh, the only other episode that I think is worth just a mention
is Spock's Brain, but I'm sure we'll find some other excuse to
talk about Spock's Brain sometime.
That's another season three episode of the original series, widely considered
one of the worst episodes of Star Trek.
But it is definitely another one of these civilizations that, while once
great, now does not understand the technology they are surrounded by.
Rob: It would be very, I mean, I mean, every podcast does it and I, you know,
loathe am I to become like any other podcast, you know, um, but to reflect
on, you know, the times where Star Trek.
We've talked so much about great stuff of Star Trek, I think we've
got our balance pretty good.
But to look at those truly poor episodes of, you know, not hitting the
Kevin: Well, we'll just have to wait for Discovery to disappoint us some day, Rob.
It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure they will find a way to
Rob: If you could read my face right now, dear listeners.
Kevin: Well thanks for blending into some primitive cultures with me, Rob.
Rob: Thank you so much for this fun run of death.
Kevin: Ha ha!
I'm going to go have a drink of water.
(whistling) Did you get all that?
Rob: I didn't get any of that.
What was that?
Kevin: Wow, Zoom rejected the whistles.
Rob: Rejected the whistle.
All I saw was you look at me deep in the eyes and pucker
your lips and I went, Kevin?
Is, is this the point where our, where our podcast shifts slightly?
Kevin: Falls off the rails.
Kevin just makes duck face for an hour.