WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:24.922 --> 00:00:26.902 Jethro Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:00:26.902 --> 00:00:28.492 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:28.522 --> 00:00:31.312 You can follow me on all the socials at Jethro Jones. 00:00:32.512 --> 00:00:36.322 I am excited to have on Transformative Principal today, Dr. Joshua Barnett. 00:00:36.502 --> 00:00:40.612 He is the National Institute for Excellence in teaching CEO, and he 00:00:40.612 --> 00:00:44.212 is responsible for overseeing all the organization's operations, including 00:00:44.217 --> 00:00:47.242 service delivery, research and evaluation, professional learning, 00:00:47.247 --> 00:00:50.842 technology development, policy and communications, financial operations. 00:00:51.627 --> 00:00:53.127 Higher education partnerships. 00:00:53.457 --> 00:00:57.117 He's also the author of Unleashing Teacher Leadership, a toolkit for ensuring 00:00:57.117 --> 00:00:59.307 effective Instruction in every classroom. 00:00:59.817 --> 00:01:03.777 And we do a whole interview with him on the Authority Podcast with Ross 00:01:03.777 --> 00:01:09.367 Romano that you can check out here in a couple days that will be released. 00:01:09.787 --> 00:01:14.167 Before this, he served as President and Chief Operating Officer for NIET. 00:01:14.317 --> 00:01:16.687 And we're excited to have you on the show. 00:01:16.687 --> 00:01:16.957 Josh. 00:01:16.957 --> 00:01:17.587 Thanks for coming. 00:01:17.592 --> 00:01:17.617 I. 00:01:18.617 --> 00:01:19.277 Joshua Barnett: Thanks, Jethro. 00:01:19.277 --> 00:01:19.877 Thanks for having 00:01:20.564 --> 00:01:23.204 Jethro Jones: So what's most valuable from our conversation today? 00:01:24.204 --> 00:01:27.924 Joshua Barnett: What we know is that teacher leadership is the most effective 00:01:27.924 --> 00:01:32.964 strategy for improving classroom instruction at scale, and our goal with 00:01:32.964 --> 00:01:35.664 this book is to help school leaders. 00:01:36.369 --> 00:01:41.109 And teacher leaders take on greater leadership within the profession to create 00:01:41.109 --> 00:01:44.049 a system that helps every teacher improve. 00:01:44.409 --> 00:01:48.489 And if we can help every teacher improve, then we know we can reach every 00:01:48.494 --> 00:01:52.659 student by building in the capacity of the educators in our profession. 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:53.549 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:01:53.549 --> 00:01:54.119 Excellent. 00:01:54.124 --> 00:02:00.633 I, the thing for me that was most valuable was the discussion about localized 00:02:00.633 --> 00:02:07.593 solutions and respecting and valuing the perspective and experience of the teachers 00:02:07.953 --> 00:02:11.643 who are there on the front lines, doing the work every day and recognizing that. 00:02:12.178 --> 00:02:15.628 They probably have a pretty good idea of what's gonna work and what's not, 00:02:15.748 --> 00:02:20.188 and taking whatever you may learn out in the world and bringing it to 00:02:20.188 --> 00:02:21.688 how does this work in our building. 00:02:21.688 --> 00:02:24.058 So that was my big takeaway. 00:02:24.268 --> 00:02:25.948 Looking forward to this conversation. 00:02:25.948 --> 00:02:29.188 We'll get to our interview with Josh here in just a moment. 00:02:31.436 --> 00:02:35.806 Well, Josh, why don't you explain to us what NIET is and what you do there? 00:02:36.500 --> 00:02:36.800 Joshua Barnett: Sure. 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:37.550 Thanks Jethro. 00:02:37.550 --> 00:02:44.010 The National Institute for Excellence in Teaching is a 25-year-old organization 00:02:44.010 --> 00:02:50.040 that's focused on bringing professional learning that really grounds our work 00:02:50.040 --> 00:02:52.410 in key elements of effective teaching. 00:02:52.895 --> 00:02:59.165 We've across the nation supporting more than 10,000 school leaders 35,000 teacher 00:02:59.165 --> 00:03:01.295 leaders, which is what our book is about. 00:03:01.715 --> 00:03:06.815 Um, we've supported across those individuals, over 3000 educators. 00:03:07.420 --> 00:03:10.180 Impacting 3.5 million students. 00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:15.280 And what that gives us over that 25 year stretch is an opportunity to feel 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:19.750 and know that no matter the context or the setting of a school environment, 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:23.170 um, we know that all schools are focused on improving outcomes for 00:03:23.175 --> 00:03:26.205 students narrowing achievement gaps. 00:03:26.510 --> 00:03:29.505 And we know that if they focus on equipping and supporting 00:03:30.045 --> 00:03:31.695 the teachers in their building. 00:03:31.950 --> 00:03:35.830 That, that is how we're going to move that building, move every 00:03:35.830 --> 00:03:37.450 child, move every classroom. 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:43.300 And our organization's mission is to build educator excellence, to give all 00:03:43.305 --> 00:03:48.670 students the opportunity for success, and therefore we believe that building. 00:03:48.990 --> 00:03:52.320 The capacity and the, and the capital that's in that building 00:03:52.320 --> 00:03:53.910 is the most important function. 00:03:54.270 --> 00:03:59.040 And the way to build that is through intentional, sustained high quality 00:03:59.040 --> 00:04:03.540 investments in educators as the most important in-school factor. 00:04:03.540 --> 00:04:07.590 And where we see the largest impact of change happen at the classroom level. 00:04:08.130 --> 00:04:12.240 And that's what we've spent 25 years honing and working to support 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:13.650 educators across the nation. 00:04:14.185 --> 00:04:14.515 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:04:14.515 --> 00:04:19.405 And so if I remember correctly, NIET, one of the things that it's 00:04:19.405 --> 00:04:21.595 known for is the Milliken Award. 00:04:21.685 --> 00:04:22.975 Is that correct? 00:04:23.613 --> 00:04:27.003 Joshua Barnett: The Milken Educator Award is a separate agency, but yes, they, 00:04:27.093 --> 00:04:31.653 they provide the Milken Educator Awards across the country as a recognition, 00:04:31.653 --> 00:04:36.453 a rewards program that's built on recognizing excellence in the classroom. 00:04:36.873 --> 00:04:41.343 And our founder Mr. Lowell Milken created both the Milken Educator Awards 00:04:41.343 --> 00:04:45.693 program and established the National Institute for Excellence in Teaching. 00:04:46.368 --> 00:04:50.628 Jethro Jones: so the reason, excuse me, the reason why I bring that up is because. 00:04:51.273 --> 00:04:54.873 The Milken Award has been described as like the Oscar for 00:04:54.903 --> 00:04:59.853 the classroom or the MVP for the classroom, kind of an approach. 00:04:59.883 --> 00:05:04.593 And, and so the, they're two separate organizations because you're 00:05:04.593 --> 00:05:06.963 focused on something different. 00:05:06.963 --> 00:05:11.403 Can you explain what, what the other organization is focused on and 00:05:11.403 --> 00:05:12.813 how that differs from what you do? 00:05:13.813 --> 00:05:14.173 Joshua Barnett: Sure. 00:05:14.173 --> 00:05:20.473 So the, the Milk and Educator Awards are, are recognizing excellence in 00:05:20.473 --> 00:05:25.213 the classroom, recognizing great teachers, great educators, um. 00:05:25.423 --> 00:05:30.013 Principals, assistant principals, they are looking for excellence 00:05:30.133 --> 00:05:34.183 at that individual level while they're early career individuals. 00:05:34.633 --> 00:05:39.223 Um, they wanna recognize and, and, and grow those individuals and provide 00:05:39.223 --> 00:05:41.143 the network and support around them. 00:05:41.383 --> 00:05:45.013 Um, and it's about recognizing and rewarding excellence in that 00:05:45.013 --> 00:05:46.843 individual classroom capacity. 00:05:47.473 --> 00:05:50.173 Um, our founder who started the Milk Educator Awards. 00:05:51.423 --> 00:05:57.363 Um, in 1987, after about 10 years of providing those awards, um, recognized 00:05:57.363 --> 00:06:02.193 that I was, or he was providing those awards from classroom to classroom and 00:06:02.193 --> 00:06:06.513 might find Jethro's classroom and say, wow, Jethro, you're doing fantastic stuff. 00:06:06.843 --> 00:06:10.083 Um, I wanna recognize and, and, and celebrate you. 00:06:10.263 --> 00:06:14.373 But I walked next door, he walked next door to Josh's classroom and he said, 00:06:14.643 --> 00:06:17.823 wow, the students here are getting a fundamental different experience. 00:06:18.688 --> 00:06:24.568 So we, we know that education, like any industry has great individuals, 00:06:24.958 --> 00:06:29.668 but what our founder wanted to do was to step back and say, how do we take 00:06:29.673 --> 00:06:35.248 and recognize excellent individuals and then grow that capacity to raise the 00:06:35.248 --> 00:06:37.708 tide of opportunity for all students? 00:06:38.053 --> 00:06:42.058 And so the process for doing that was to create an intervention 00:06:42.388 --> 00:06:44.398 that was to build teacher leaders. 00:06:45.008 --> 00:06:48.308 And by building teacher leaders and recognizing that excellence in 00:06:48.308 --> 00:06:52.478 any individual classroom, it was to try to make sure we could provide 00:06:52.478 --> 00:06:56.318 that at scale to every classroom and ultimately every student. 00:06:57.058 --> 00:07:00.298 Jethro Jones: And that's, that's so important because it's easy to. 00:07:01.273 --> 00:07:04.723 To focus on one thing, but then how do you make it grow and 00:07:04.723 --> 00:07:07.303 expand to other areas as well. 00:07:07.303 --> 00:07:11.803 And so I, I appreciate that emphasis in what NIET is there 00:07:11.893 --> 00:07:14.443 for, to help make that happen. 00:07:14.863 --> 00:07:20.893 So you um, you recently wrote a book called Unleashing Teacher Leadership, 00:07:20.893 --> 00:07:24.258 a toolkit for ensuring effective instruction in every classroom. 00:07:24.883 --> 00:07:26.593 And what are the. 00:07:27.593 --> 00:07:32.253 What is the connection to teacher leadership and good teaching? 00:07:32.323 --> 00:07:35.093 And let me, let me give a little context around this. 00:07:36.623 --> 00:07:39.653 because somebody is a good teacher does not mean that they will be a 00:07:39.653 --> 00:07:44.003 good principal, and just because somebody is a good principal does not 00:07:44.003 --> 00:07:46.523 mean that person was a good teacher. 00:07:46.958 --> 00:07:51.848 If there's a lot of overlap, those things do happen, but those, those 00:07:51.848 --> 00:07:57.738 skill sets are different from teaching and leading and and especially in 00:07:57.738 --> 00:08:02.418 a school setting, they, they can be very different skill sets needed to be 00:08:02.418 --> 00:08:05.538 successful in either one of those arenas. 00:08:05.928 --> 00:08:11.178 So we, we talk a lot on this show about how it's important for teachers to have 00:08:12.408 --> 00:08:14.268 leadership opportunities and what is that? 00:08:14.928 --> 00:08:16.393 What does that mean in your eyes? 00:08:17.393 --> 00:08:19.403 Joshua Barnett: Well, it's a, it's a great question. 00:08:19.463 --> 00:08:23.453 Um, and I think to, to piggyback on kind of what we were just talking 00:08:23.453 --> 00:08:28.763 about, about why our organization was designed and, and where we started 25 00:08:28.763 --> 00:08:35.543 years ago, um, our our founders noted right that great teachers are really 00:08:35.543 --> 00:08:37.703 about more than what they impart. 00:08:38.408 --> 00:08:43.208 They are also about the representation that that great teachers can exist 00:08:43.268 --> 00:08:47.108 and that there are opportunities to grow and achieve in this profession. 00:08:47.618 --> 00:08:51.908 And that means that we can transform an entire workforce of educators. 00:08:52.328 --> 00:08:57.248 But that transformation will only happen if we obviously enlist and support 00:08:57.248 --> 00:08:58.958 and grow the current teacher leaders. 00:08:58.958 --> 00:09:04.538 We have to develop the next generation of teacher leaders that, that we can have. 00:09:05.213 --> 00:09:07.703 And, and I think the second part to your question is. 00:09:08.663 --> 00:09:11.873 One that's really important, which is, as you said, what, 00:09:12.113 --> 00:09:14.663 what do teacher leaders do? 00:09:15.473 --> 00:09:17.213 Um, what makes them different? 00:09:17.218 --> 00:09:22.463 And, and I think in, in the book and in our experience, we really talk about, 00:09:23.153 --> 00:09:28.523 um, essentially five key roles and responsibilities for, for teacher leaders. 00:09:29.273 --> 00:09:32.723 And the first piece of that is we think that obviously teacher 00:09:32.723 --> 00:09:35.933 leaders have to engage with, um. 00:09:36.933 --> 00:09:39.243 Between instructional leadership team. 00:09:39.858 --> 00:09:41.838 Individuals in the, in the school. 00:09:41.958 --> 00:09:44.898 And so they are engaging with that leadership team. 00:09:44.898 --> 00:09:49.278 They support the administrator in developing school goals, tracking 00:09:49.278 --> 00:09:54.028 student progress monitoring, classroom follow up or goal attainment 00:09:54.028 --> 00:09:55.528 for instructional improvement. 00:09:55.898 --> 00:09:57.578 They certainly are data driven. 00:09:57.608 --> 00:09:59.828 They, they're assessing student results. 00:10:00.068 --> 00:10:01.538 They're analyzing. 00:10:02.253 --> 00:10:05.853 Looking at what other teachers need and, and when appropriate. 00:10:06.043 --> 00:10:10.688 Maybe conducting observations or, or even informal observations with teachers. 00:10:11.288 --> 00:10:14.588 The second thing that we would say teacher leaders do. 00:10:15.583 --> 00:10:20.203 As they certainly provide that instructional support, um, they identify 00:10:20.203 --> 00:10:25.663 research-based strategies that are aligned to the student goals and the school goals 00:10:25.663 --> 00:10:28.303 or department goals of that school system. 00:10:28.813 --> 00:10:32.863 Um, they also field test those strategies and so again, it might be that they 00:10:32.863 --> 00:10:36.853 heard about a great strategy at a, at an event, a conference, a book, or a 00:10:36.853 --> 00:10:40.783 proceeding, but they wanna make sure that they can bring that strategy 00:10:40.783 --> 00:10:43.963 back and make sure it's gonna work in their individual school system. 00:10:44.538 --> 00:10:47.178 The third thing we would say is they certainly collaborate 00:10:47.268 --> 00:10:49.248 to improve instruction, right? 00:10:49.248 --> 00:10:54.348 Again, it's not about necessarily my great instruction in my class, but 00:10:54.348 --> 00:10:58.038 also how do I facilitate building the capacity and raising the tide of 00:10:58.043 --> 00:11:00.768 instruction across the school system. 00:11:01.348 --> 00:11:02.483 The fourth part we would say. 00:11:03.313 --> 00:11:03.733 Right. 00:11:03.733 --> 00:11:08.773 It's, it's, you need to be able to coach other adults and assist in 00:11:08.773 --> 00:11:14.863 developing the goals and strategies and improving resources and materials for 00:11:14.863 --> 00:11:16.813 the other individuals in your school. 00:11:17.743 --> 00:11:21.313 And then the, the fifth component that we talk about is obviously providing that 00:11:21.313 --> 00:11:25.733 instructional feedback which means you need to have a collaborative mindset. 00:11:26.133 --> 00:11:29.823 You need to collect data, you need to model teaching, but you also need to 00:11:29.823 --> 00:11:32.493 be able to provide that instructional. 00:11:33.128 --> 00:11:34.328 Focused feedback. 00:11:35.378 --> 00:11:38.558 And I think the last part of your question is really how do they do that? 00:11:38.563 --> 00:11:43.838 How do, how do, how do teacher leaders successfully navigate that process? 00:11:43.838 --> 00:11:49.088 And we really talk about the the three steps or three components to 00:11:49.088 --> 00:11:52.808 being a successful teacher leader based on our experience over the last 00:11:52.808 --> 00:11:59.258 25 years, again, working with, with 35,000, um, plus teacher leaders. 00:11:59.918 --> 00:12:03.908 The first part of that inherently is is trust, right? 00:12:03.908 --> 00:12:07.898 We have to establish that there's some trust that's gonna happen so that teacher 00:12:07.898 --> 00:12:13.118 leaders are consciously building that trust with our colleagues, um, that they 00:12:13.118 --> 00:12:18.163 are, they are interacting with their colleagues to make sure that they're not. 00:12:18.173 --> 00:12:22.973 Just, um, modeling their own great behavior, but they're building that trust 00:12:22.973 --> 00:12:28.103 across the school system, um, through explicit conversations, setting, you know, 00:12:28.108 --> 00:12:31.913 expectations and talking with individuals so that they can learn and grow. 00:12:32.663 --> 00:12:36.233 Um, but also with district administrators, school administrators, and others. 00:12:36.533 --> 00:12:39.353 And so we wanna be proactive in building that trust. 00:12:39.893 --> 00:12:44.123 It's important, right, to not only walk the walk and talk the talk, but also 00:12:44.123 --> 00:12:45.803 roll up your sleeves and get in there. 00:12:46.303 --> 00:12:51.013 The second thing we'd say after, after building trust is ultimately you have 00:12:51.013 --> 00:12:53.593 to have deep instructional knowledge. 00:12:53.963 --> 00:12:54.263 Right. 00:12:54.263 --> 00:12:59.303 You have to have an ability to demonstrate that as a teacher leader, you are skilled 00:12:59.723 --> 00:13:04.523 at moving both teachers and students, and I think that's one of the key things 00:13:04.523 --> 00:13:07.223 that we talk about is sometimes great. 00:13:09.038 --> 00:13:16.448 Necessarily make teacher leaders, um, teaching your own class, but leader. 00:13:17.448 --> 00:13:22.368 The needs of other adults and try to coach and support them. 00:13:22.368 --> 00:13:26.088 And so that's an important consideration is that you've, you've got to be 00:13:26.088 --> 00:13:28.408 able to demonstrate that expertise. 00:13:28.858 --> 00:13:32.368 And then the third part we would say is, is credibility. 00:13:32.488 --> 00:13:32.728 Right? 00:13:32.728 --> 00:13:34.318 And how do you get credibility? 00:13:34.828 --> 00:13:37.288 Obviously you need to have success with your own students. 00:13:37.288 --> 00:13:39.988 You need to be able to be regarded in the school system as 00:13:39.988 --> 00:13:42.568 someone who is highly capable. 00:13:43.123 --> 00:13:46.633 Um, but we think the strongest teacher leaders ultimately gain credibility 00:13:46.633 --> 00:13:51.383 by empowering other teachers to have ownership of their learning. 00:13:51.743 --> 00:13:52.073 Right? 00:13:52.073 --> 00:13:56.073 And I think that's one of those critical things that we talk about is important. 00:13:56.613 --> 00:14:00.393 and and one of the most important parts of that is, is not knowing 00:14:00.393 --> 00:14:01.983 everything, but also having the. 00:14:02.343 --> 00:14:06.393 The credibility to go seek those strategies, seek out those solutions 00:14:06.783 --> 00:14:09.273 and gain those instructional expertise. 00:14:09.483 --> 00:14:12.003 And so that's some of the, that's probably the five 00:14:12.008 --> 00:14:15.603 areas of roles we've seen and the three ways we see them achieve it. 00:14:15.768 --> 00:14:16.038 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:14:16.038 --> 00:14:19.638 So there, there are a couple of follow up questions I have based on that. 00:14:19.638 --> 00:14:22.578 I wanted to make sure that we understood the context and when 00:14:22.578 --> 00:14:26.688 you're talk that you're talking about teacher leadership in, because I 00:14:26.693 --> 00:14:32.048 have other questions that I think get to a, a deeper issue there as well. 00:14:32.648 --> 00:14:35.888 Um, and the first one, we'll, we'll start with this one and 00:14:35.888 --> 00:14:39.068 then we'll come back to the other one is the ownership of learning. 00:14:39.698 --> 00:14:45.428 Um, teachers have for decades complained about professional development that is 00:14:45.428 --> 00:14:49.598 put on by the school or the district and how it's not meeting their needs. 00:14:50.198 --> 00:14:56.078 And then when it's their opportunity to do professional development on their 00:14:56.078 --> 00:15:03.038 own, they don't take those opportunities seriously or with the kind of. 00:15:04.268 --> 00:15:06.068 Um, what's it called? 00:15:06.068 --> 00:15:10.318 The kind of responsibility that requires to be in charge of your own learning? 00:15:10.528 --> 00:15:15.628 So, brief example, I, my second year of teaching, I was fortunate enough to go 00:15:15.628 --> 00:15:23.398 to a large conference and all the other teachers plans were to go to the morning 00:15:23.398 --> 00:15:28.528 sessions and then spend the second half of the day out exploring the city 00:15:28.533 --> 00:15:30.268 and, and doing all that kind of stuff. 00:15:30.748 --> 00:15:31.708 Personally, I thought. 00:15:32.218 --> 00:15:33.448 The district's sending me to this. 00:15:33.448 --> 00:15:37.288 I need to be like attentive and do the things I need to do. 00:15:38.188 --> 00:15:40.948 But these teachers that I was with, who were the teacher leaders 00:15:40.948 --> 00:15:45.148 in my school were not interested in spending their time learning. 00:15:45.148 --> 00:15:49.618 They were more interested in, in seeing this as a district paid for vacation. 00:15:50.188 --> 00:15:53.458 Now, that's not unique to my school, but that. 00:15:53.998 --> 00:15:58.678 That is a thing that happens and people talk about that and, um, 00:15:58.708 --> 00:16:00.028 but we don't talk about it a lot. 00:16:00.028 --> 00:16:04.858 So how do we help teachers understand that their learning 00:16:04.858 --> 00:16:06.358 really is their responsibility? 00:16:06.358 --> 00:16:10.738 Especially in a system where we take the responsibility of learning 00:16:10.743 --> 00:16:15.328 from our students all the time and, and we don't expect them to be in 00:16:15.328 --> 00:16:16.918 charge of their own learning either. 00:16:17.158 --> 00:16:20.308 How do, how do we balance and, and find the right solution there? 00:16:21.308 --> 00:16:25.538 Joshua Barnett: Well, I think, I think as you noted, um, one of the, the key 00:16:25.543 --> 00:16:29.348 challenges to this is I, I think unlike. 00:16:29.753 --> 00:16:33.143 Traditional, let's say professional development and your story is 00:16:33.143 --> 00:16:37.343 obviously endemic to what we, we see not only in education. 00:16:37.343 --> 00:16:38.813 So I guess I would say two things. 00:16:38.818 --> 00:16:42.653 One, that is not a unique story to education, right? 00:16:42.653 --> 00:16:42.838 That is. 00:16:43.388 --> 00:16:47.978 That is where every professional group goes to an event and whether 00:16:47.978 --> 00:16:50.708 or not they view it as professional learning or a combination of 00:16:50.708 --> 00:16:55.538 professional learning, expense paid time together, however they view it. 00:16:55.868 --> 00:17:00.788 I think we should be fair to educators that that's not a uniquely educational 00:17:01.358 --> 00:17:02.258 vantage point. 00:17:02.268 --> 00:17:02.933 Jethro Jones: I, I agree. 00:17:03.855 --> 00:17:07.545 Joshua Barnett: The second part I would say is amongst those individuals that 00:17:07.545 --> 00:17:12.195 would go, um, I think it's what is the expectation that I'm gonna come back 00:17:12.195 --> 00:17:17.805 with, that our industry and our field needs to think about is, as you noted. 00:17:18.505 --> 00:17:22.135 Maybe you were a teacher leader or you were part of the group that went to that 00:17:22.135 --> 00:17:24.745 training, but what was the expectation? 00:17:24.835 --> 00:17:27.625 What were the opportunities for someone to return with? 00:17:27.625 --> 00:17:32.635 It was the expectation that by presence and by going you're, you're going to 00:17:32.635 --> 00:17:36.295 get exposed to new ideas and maybe you bring them back, maybe you share 00:17:36.295 --> 00:17:40.795 them with some other people, but what was the actual system and structure 00:17:41.245 --> 00:17:43.165 for that opportunity for learning? 00:17:43.785 --> 00:17:47.355 And what I would say is, unlike traditional professional development, when 00:17:47.355 --> 00:17:53.175 we establish teacher leader roles with the right expectations to ensure that they are 00:17:53.265 --> 00:17:59.775 charged with, given the autonomy too and the infrastructure to support and build 00:17:59.775 --> 00:18:04.695 the capacity of other teacher leaders, well now the expectation for me to go to 00:18:04.695 --> 00:18:07.725 that event is that I know I'm there to. 00:18:09.585 --> 00:18:13.455 And transfer that learning back to the instructional capacity 00:18:13.455 --> 00:18:14.745 of every one of my teachers. 00:18:15.075 --> 00:18:19.095 But not only am I charged with that, I have the, I have the opportunity, 00:18:19.095 --> 00:18:22.305 the structure is built, and that's what our organization has 00:18:22.305 --> 00:18:23.835 spent all of our time working on. 00:18:23.835 --> 00:18:27.705 Building that capacity and those leadership opportunities 00:18:27.705 --> 00:18:29.955 through formalized roles is then. 00:18:30.435 --> 00:18:36.015 My job is to return back, go to Jethro's class, go to Josh's class, go to all the 00:18:36.015 --> 00:18:40.815 other classrooms, meet with that cluster or professional learning team, talk with 00:18:40.815 --> 00:18:45.495 them about the strategy, and I realize I'm the conduit from that national or 00:18:45.495 --> 00:18:48.345 regional training back to that strategy. 00:18:48.345 --> 00:18:52.575 Working in my classroom, my school, my building, my community. 00:18:52.935 --> 00:18:54.765 Well, that changes the way that I am. 00:18:55.040 --> 00:18:58.580 Approaching it, and I'm bringing that back with a collaborative 00:18:58.580 --> 00:19:00.590 mindset as the expert. 00:19:01.050 --> 00:19:03.000 And I think that's where we've missed it. 00:19:03.060 --> 00:19:07.290 Our, our, our approach is let's send people to, to an idea. 00:19:07.620 --> 00:19:11.310 Maybe they get a strategy, maybe they don't, maybe they had a good time. 00:19:11.730 --> 00:19:16.140 But if we build the infrastructure where the purpose of attending that event 00:19:16.230 --> 00:19:20.340 is to return back, and we talk about this at our events, at our national 00:19:20.340 --> 00:19:22.560 conference this year, we had 15. 00:19:24.555 --> 00:19:27.255 And, and that's, that was my speech at the ballroom was 00:19:27.255 --> 00:19:29.235 we're in this room to transfer. 00:19:29.565 --> 00:19:34.275 That is our job today is to learn and transfer the learning We 00:19:34.280 --> 00:19:38.988 gleaned from our time together to every building from Alaska to South 00:19:38.988 --> 00:19:40.605 Carolina and everywhere in between. 00:19:40.965 --> 00:19:44.505 And that's what our job as an, as a gathering was not 00:19:44.505 --> 00:19:46.455 to meet together for the sake 00:19:46.455 --> 00:19:46.965 of meeting. 00:19:47.130 --> 00:19:47.550 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:19:47.600 --> 00:19:53.690 those are solid responses and I think having that as the plan of, if 00:19:53.690 --> 00:19:55.250 we're gonna send you to this, then. 00:19:55.670 --> 00:20:00.860 We're, we're gonna expect some sort of integration, some sort of plan, some 00:20:00.860 --> 00:20:07.640 sort of work to make it stick with, with our teachers here in, in our school. 00:20:08.060 --> 00:20:11.960 So the other aspect of that is that the only. 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:16.430 Professional development or training that counts. 00:20:16.490 --> 00:20:20.750 So we say teachers need to be in, especially teachers, teacher leaders 00:20:21.260 --> 00:20:23.750 need to be owners of their own learning. 00:20:24.230 --> 00:20:28.850 But we only count or give credit to specific approved. 00:20:29.660 --> 00:20:31.730 Aspects of learning opportunities. 00:20:31.730 --> 00:20:38.720 So going to this conference is an approved learning thing and we don't value and 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.570 appreciate the learning that teachers get. 00:20:42.080 --> 00:20:44.480 That is not a sanctioned activity. 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:45.560 Does that make sense? 00:20:46.560 --> 00:20:47.305 Joshua Barnett: It, it does. 00:20:47.305 --> 00:20:52.525 I think that goes back to, um, again, however, we, we want to set up the right 00:20:52.525 --> 00:20:55.825 structure for that to be effective. 00:20:56.275 --> 00:21:01.945 And again, rather than, than the, the old model of, let's call it seat time 00:21:01.945 --> 00:21:05.335 or sort of what we, what we often have talked about in the field, right? 00:21:05.335 --> 00:21:10.705 Is simply time in the space or years in service are not the most, does not make 00:21:10.885 --> 00:21:12.655 someone the most effective educator. 00:21:13.225 --> 00:21:16.525 Rather, let's start with a different, different premise. 00:21:16.615 --> 00:21:20.845 We know that effective educators, right are, are ultimately the cornerstone 00:21:21.385 --> 00:21:26.605 of student success, and we know those who can get those best results and 00:21:26.815 --> 00:21:30.055 are committed to, um, building trust. 00:21:30.775 --> 00:21:34.855 Being instructional experts and having that credibility we talked about earlier. 00:21:35.275 --> 00:21:38.585 Um, they wanna move forward in their profession and, and they 00:21:38.585 --> 00:21:41.645 wanna not necessarily always move into administration. 00:21:42.065 --> 00:21:45.590 So that's why, again, we think about it as a system-wide approach. 00:21:46.705 --> 00:21:52.375 For how can these individuals take on these types of roles where we need 00:21:52.375 --> 00:21:56.245 effective school leaders and system leaders and we need those individuals 00:21:56.245 --> 00:21:58.615 not to have to feel like unicorns, right? 00:21:58.615 --> 00:22:02.485 That are transforming and putting everything on their back, but ultimately 00:22:02.485 --> 00:22:05.845 have these other individuals who are charged with supporting building 00:22:05.875 --> 00:22:07.555 the capacity of other educators. 00:22:08.095 --> 00:22:11.815 And we know that's why it's one of the most effective systemwide approaches 00:22:11.815 --> 00:22:15.925 to sustainable improvement for student achievement across the board. 00:22:16.775 --> 00:22:21.575 Um, what I would also say, I guess is in re in response to your question is again, 00:22:21.575 --> 00:22:23.825 why kind of, why are we in this situation? 00:22:24.035 --> 00:22:24.395 Right? 00:22:24.455 --> 00:22:28.895 Um, as you noted, it's not really just about how we count professional learning. 00:22:28.895 --> 00:22:33.725 It's, it's overall, why is our profession challenged with that 00:22:33.725 --> 00:22:37.775 turnover and, and, and challenged with recruitment and, and struggling to 00:22:37.775 --> 00:22:43.145 necessarily get individuals to join this profession, stay in this profession. 00:22:43.820 --> 00:22:48.780 And what we see and hear right all the time is educators cite perhaps a lack 00:22:48.780 --> 00:22:54.070 of support, a challenging environment, lack of opportunity recognition for, 00:22:54.070 --> 00:22:57.220 for a handful of reasons that they might not stay in the profession. 00:22:58.060 --> 00:23:01.510 And we see those as things we can affect. 00:23:01.510 --> 00:23:05.440 We talked earlier about recognition through the Oscars of teaching 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:09.550 the Milken Educator Awards as a fundamental way to recognize excellence. 00:23:09.940 --> 00:23:14.440 Our organization provides what we call a Founder's Award for a school, which 00:23:14.445 --> 00:23:18.850 is again, recognition of a school that's committed to building teacher excellence. 00:23:19.150 --> 00:23:22.360 We have a district educator effectiveness award that is. 00:23:22.360 --> 00:23:27.005 Built on the idea of identifying a district that is committed to 00:23:27.005 --> 00:23:28.685 building educator excellence. 00:23:28.775 --> 00:23:30.935 So we are recognizing. 00:23:31.345 --> 00:23:36.385 And rewarding those locations that we see doing those types of things. 00:23:36.835 --> 00:23:41.275 And we also see that there's an opportunity for, again, these teacher 00:23:41.280 --> 00:23:43.915 leaders to be that super fuel, right? 00:23:44.005 --> 00:23:45.475 In a school system. 00:23:46.390 --> 00:23:50.350 So it's about recognizing them, but it's also about rewarding them for taking 00:23:50.350 --> 00:23:53.020 on these types of roles, um, right. 00:23:53.020 --> 00:23:54.160 And what they can do. 00:23:54.610 --> 00:23:58.000 As we talked earlier, it's about being that bridge between an 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.820 administration and every classroom. 00:24:00.820 --> 00:24:05.155 I. Instead of expecting the, the principals of our schools to do 00:24:05.155 --> 00:24:10.405 everything at all times, in all ways for everyone, can we build an infrastructure 00:24:10.405 --> 00:24:15.415 around them that allows the group, the leadership team to meet the demands of 00:24:15.415 --> 00:24:19.465 the profession and provide that high caliber support for every teacher. 00:24:21.409 --> 00:24:21.889 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:24:22.339 --> 00:24:27.139 Well, I've got, I have about a million more questions now, so we're not gonna 00:24:27.139 --> 00:24:29.089 get to all of them and that's okay. 00:24:29.469 --> 00:24:33.669 But one, a couple of things that you talked about is our, we are 00:24:33.669 --> 00:24:37.179 challenged with recruitment and turnover, and that's a big deal. 00:24:37.299 --> 00:24:41.349 And one of the things that I talk about a lot is that you need to 00:24:41.349 --> 00:24:43.509 build a pathway to get people. 00:24:44.289 --> 00:24:49.719 Into your classrooms and provide opportunities from early when they're 00:24:49.719 --> 00:24:54.489 not ready, not certified yet to help them move into that position. 00:24:54.494 --> 00:25:02.129 And, um, partnering with with local colleges to, I, I have a, a connection. 00:25:02.189 --> 00:25:06.359 Someone who wanted to be a teacher and didn't find out until. 00:25:06.824 --> 00:25:12.074 The end of her first semester of student teaching when all she had left was 00:25:12.074 --> 00:25:13.634 one more semester of student teaching. 00:25:14.024 --> 00:25:17.774 She didn't find out until then that teaching was not a good idea for her. 00:25:18.254 --> 00:25:26.534 And like that I. Irresponsibility of her college of not giving her opportunities 00:25:26.534 --> 00:25:32.834 to be in front of kids and experience what it's like to be a teacher, is just, to me, 00:25:33.044 --> 00:25:36.794 malpractice and totally unforgivable that. 00:25:37.124 --> 00:25:41.384 She spent three and a half years going to college preparing for this, 00:25:41.384 --> 00:25:46.094 and then finally the last semester before she graduates, she's told. 00:25:46.604 --> 00:25:48.734 She's not good enough and not cut out for it. 00:25:49.004 --> 00:25:50.954 I think that is just abhorrent. 00:25:50.954 --> 00:25:56.744 And so being able to provide pathways for people to come in is, is a powerful 00:25:56.744 --> 00:26:01.214 thing and gives you an opportunity to see how people do and gives your 00:26:01.274 --> 00:26:04.514 students in your school a pathway to become a teacher at that school 00:26:04.514 --> 00:26:06.494 later or in that district later. 00:26:06.494 --> 00:26:11.424 I think those things are things that, that districts have to be talking 00:26:11.424 --> 00:26:13.104 about and planning on to make. 00:26:13.494 --> 00:26:17.514 To deal with this, um, challenge that we have with recruitment and turnover. 00:26:17.944 --> 00:26:19.684 Any comments on that before we go on? 00:26:20.684 --> 00:26:24.014 Joshua Barnett: Yeah, I, I mean, I think, I think as you noted, we know 00:26:24.014 --> 00:26:28.154 the data would tell us we're not getting enough talented individuals in the 00:26:28.154 --> 00:26:29.769 profession, and that should, that should. 00:26:30.494 --> 00:26:33.374 I should encourage all of us to pause and look at what's happening. 00:26:33.914 --> 00:26:39.134 And we talked about some of those reasons, um, briefly earlier on, 00:26:39.224 --> 00:26:43.004 on, again, just, just as recent, you know, an EdWeek report, I think 00:26:43.009 --> 00:26:44.204 that was out last year, showed. 00:26:45.574 --> 00:26:45.844 Right. 00:26:45.844 --> 00:26:49.774 We have, I think over half, 55% I believe in the study indicated that 00:26:49.774 --> 00:26:54.464 they were more interested in leaving the profession earlier than initially planned. 00:26:54.854 --> 00:26:58.364 So we know the pipeline isn't where we've needed it to be. 00:26:58.364 --> 00:27:03.074 And in those traditional education preparation programs, we know the 00:27:03.074 --> 00:27:06.794 individuals in the profession maybe looking at other alternatives. 00:27:07.109 --> 00:27:11.399 And again, we have the evidence, we have data that would tell us what's, what's 00:27:11.399 --> 00:27:13.949 missing in those circumstances, right? 00:27:13.949 --> 00:27:18.509 Lack of support, isolation in the classroom, lack of opportunities to 00:27:18.509 --> 00:27:22.739 collaborate, lack of commensurate compensation, lack of opportunities 00:27:22.739 --> 00:27:24.479 for leadership, lack of recognition. 00:27:24.959 --> 00:27:30.029 And as I said earlier, our belief is a lot of those things are are solvable. 00:27:30.029 --> 00:27:30.569 There are a lot of. 00:27:30.699 --> 00:27:32.619 Issues that we can do to address those. 00:27:32.619 --> 00:27:35.619 We can provide recognition for excellence. 00:27:35.829 --> 00:27:38.679 We can create formal opportunities for leadership. 00:27:39.009 --> 00:27:42.399 We can provide support for collaboration. 00:27:42.699 --> 00:27:47.769 We can create less isolation, and our belief is that effective teacher leaders. 00:27:48.564 --> 00:27:51.804 Are a solution to a great, many of those problems. 00:27:52.194 --> 00:27:54.804 Um, and the, the commensurate compensation is one. 00:27:54.804 --> 00:27:56.574 Nationally we should continue to talk about. 00:27:56.579 --> 00:27:59.934 A lot of states have moved to increase base teacher salary 00:27:59.934 --> 00:28:00.984 over the last few years. 00:28:00.984 --> 00:28:02.244 That's been a conversation. 00:28:02.754 --> 00:28:06.414 But amongst the other options, those are solvable problems in 00:28:06.419 --> 00:28:10.674 our view, and we have evidence of ways that this has been solved. 00:28:10.674 --> 00:28:13.284 We have national studies opportunities. 00:28:14.349 --> 00:28:17.919 What has happened to improve those to your experience? 00:28:17.919 --> 00:28:20.714 I have a first year teacher, or a first year, you know, 00:28:20.739 --> 00:28:21.879 first year teacher daughter. 00:28:21.879 --> 00:28:24.219 She's, she's just finished her first year. 00:28:24.669 --> 00:28:27.459 Um, another daughter that's in her, you know, going into her 00:28:27.459 --> 00:28:29.479 junior year and a teaching program. 00:28:29.929 --> 00:28:35.299 And they need those opportunities to have exposure to students, as you said. 00:28:35.309 --> 00:28:39.224 They can, we can believe and want to be in the profession, but. 00:28:39.699 --> 00:28:45.159 Understanding what it means and what it feels like to actually walk in and sit 00:28:45.159 --> 00:28:51.159 down and be the teacher of record earlier in your in your pathway is helpful. 00:28:51.549 --> 00:28:55.809 Our organization has continued to partner with community colleges, 00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:58.899 education preparation programs, alternative certification 00:28:59.294 --> 00:29:01.569 programs, and even more recently. 00:29:01.729 --> 00:29:06.499 Direct district based certification for states that allow that across the 00:29:06.499 --> 00:29:12.709 country where a successful individual can go on a preparation program through 00:29:12.769 --> 00:29:17.339 a direct district based certification model again, to help meet the needs 00:29:17.789 --> 00:29:21.269 to the example that you said, we don't wanna have someone who spent two or 00:29:21.269 --> 00:29:24.899 three years in a program learning about the profession and then depart. 00:29:25.539 --> 00:29:30.579 Um, how did we not recognize, have conversations expose and gear up, but 00:29:30.579 --> 00:29:34.179 more importantly, even if the person made it that far, what was it that 00:29:34.179 --> 00:29:36.009 caused the person to transition out? 00:29:36.159 --> 00:29:40.209 Was it an uncertainty over the lack of support and the continued runway? 00:29:40.689 --> 00:29:44.169 Was there an off ramp that could have let that person join a 00:29:44.709 --> 00:29:46.624 education studies program or other? 00:29:47.074 --> 00:29:51.814 Adjacent avenue that could have led to a paraprofessional opportunity that 00:29:51.844 --> 00:29:53.554 might've encouraged them to come back. 00:29:53.974 --> 00:29:59.404 So there's a lot of conversations we need to continue to have, but I think our view 00:29:59.409 --> 00:30:04.864 is we have the opportunity to transform this profession, make it, make it as 00:30:04.864 --> 00:30:09.784 attractive as we know it should be, and ultimately regarded in the professional 00:30:09.784 --> 00:30:11.464 capacity we know it should be. 00:30:11.834 --> 00:30:15.854 That will be a step forward in allowing more great, um, 00:30:15.854 --> 00:30:17.264 high powered individuals to 00:30:17.544 --> 00:30:20.454 Jethro Jones: Well, yeah, and I, I think that's really key because when 00:30:20.454 --> 00:30:26.274 you, when you're able to, if, if somebody goes in thinking I want to 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:29.904 be a teacher, and teacher turns out to not be the right thing for them, 00:30:29.904 --> 00:30:32.694 I. What other options are available? 00:30:32.874 --> 00:30:38.034 And we have this silly thing in education where we think, if you haven't done my 00:30:38.034 --> 00:30:41.034 day today, then you, you can't help me. 00:30:41.334 --> 00:30:42.504 And it's ridiculous. 00:30:42.509 --> 00:30:45.204 Superintendents look at the state commissioner of education, 00:30:45.204 --> 00:30:47.514 they're like, you haven't been a superintendent, therefore you can 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:48.594 understand what I'm going through. 00:30:48.984 --> 00:30:53.214 Principals say you weren't a middle school principal as a superintendent. 00:30:53.494 --> 00:30:55.684 You, my current superintendent was not a middle school 00:30:55.689 --> 00:30:57.064 principal, therefore, he can't. 00:30:57.104 --> 00:30:57.974 Get what I'm doing. 00:30:58.214 --> 00:31:00.614 A math teacher will say, and my principal didn't teach math. 00:31:00.794 --> 00:31:03.734 They taught language arts so they can understand that's arrogant 00:31:03.734 --> 00:31:06.734 and inappropriate and we need to just get over that, first of all. 00:31:07.184 --> 00:31:12.224 But second of all, there's a lot of other things tangential to education 00:31:12.494 --> 00:31:14.354 that people could find success at. 00:31:14.624 --> 00:31:19.644 And this poor woman that I'm talking about went on to go do things that 00:31:19.644 --> 00:31:21.564 were not related to education at all. 00:31:21.654 --> 00:31:24.684 And it was a missed opportunity in so many ways. 00:31:25.979 --> 00:31:30.659 Then there are situations where teachers or principals get pushed out of their 00:31:30.659 --> 00:31:34.659 schools or their classrooms and and those kinds of things happen where they could 00:31:34.659 --> 00:31:38.949 still add a lot of value, but that it's not, there's not another path for them. 00:31:38.954 --> 00:31:44.139 And we're too harsh of judges about somebody not being successful in a 00:31:44.139 --> 00:31:48.729 certain circumstance when they could have been successful somewhere else. 00:31:48.729 --> 00:31:56.454 And a, a good example of that is we had a. I had a science teacher who was, um, she 00:31:56.454 --> 00:31:58.584 just, she just did not do great with it. 00:31:59.004 --> 00:32:00.084 Really nice woman. 00:32:00.174 --> 00:32:03.749 Really good at interacting with the kids, but just really 00:32:03.749 --> 00:32:05.219 struggled to teach science. 00:32:05.819 --> 00:32:10.274 And so after a while I was like, Hey, I. You like doing this art stuff, why 00:32:10.274 --> 00:32:14.924 don't you have the kids do these like science notebooks and teach them how 00:32:14.924 --> 00:32:19.634 to observe things scientifically and record it in these science notebooks? 00:32:19.964 --> 00:32:24.584 And she had been an art teacher previously but had a, a science endorsement. 00:32:25.334 --> 00:32:29.594 And so she started doing that and her whole classroom dynamic changed and it 00:32:29.594 --> 00:32:32.264 was amazing and it was so wonderful. 00:32:32.264 --> 00:32:36.614 And if she could have had the freedom. 00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:41.489 To do that of her own volition rather than me telling her, you're 00:32:41.489 --> 00:32:44.309 just not, you're not fitting in the, you're not fitting the mold. 00:32:44.309 --> 00:32:46.319 You're not getting what we need done here. 00:32:46.659 --> 00:32:47.799 If she would've had that. 00:32:48.669 --> 00:32:52.929 Of her own volition to know I could do this and I could be successful with it. 00:32:53.349 --> 00:32:56.979 It would've been a lot better for her, as it was, it turned out to be 00:32:56.979 --> 00:33:01.809 a really negative experience because, um, her doing the things she cared 00:33:01.809 --> 00:33:06.099 about and was passionate about was the last resort before I had to 00:33:06.104 --> 00:33:08.229 say, you can't teach her anymore. 00:33:08.259 --> 00:33:12.009 And it just wasn't a fair situation and, and. 00:33:12.879 --> 00:33:16.479 It would've been really easy to judge her and say, you're a bad teacher. 00:33:16.869 --> 00:33:20.889 But no, she was just in the wrong subject, and once we made it more of an 00:33:20.889 --> 00:33:23.199 art class, she became a great teacher. 00:33:23.499 --> 00:33:27.099 Now, the kids did not get the standards for science that they. 00:33:27.659 --> 00:33:30.059 Would have if she had been a better science teacher. 00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:34.109 But at that point, I mean, I didn't really care at that point because 00:33:34.109 --> 00:33:37.559 they weren't learning anything anyway, and nobody was happy. 00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:41.579 At least now everybody was happy and was learning something, even if it 00:33:41.579 --> 00:33:43.829 wasn't exactly what we had wanted. 00:33:43.829 --> 00:33:46.559 And there are, there are different pathways and ways for people 00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:51.149 to be involved, um, that that could provide them benefit. 00:33:52.149 --> 00:33:55.324 Joshua Barnett: Well, I, I think in that example, you know. 00:33:56.324 --> 00:34:01.184 Again, numerous conversations and in, in district offices and school, 00:34:01.244 --> 00:34:05.474 school offices around the country, that's, that's not uncommon, right? 00:34:05.474 --> 00:34:10.424 What you, what you shared is not an uncommon feeling of, I have an 00:34:10.424 --> 00:34:15.229 individual, my al, my alternative to this individual might be an 00:34:15.234 --> 00:34:17.714 emergency cert, a long term sub. 00:34:18.629 --> 00:34:23.069 A parapro who doesn't, can't be the teacher of record, or, or do 00:34:23.069 --> 00:34:27.089 I shuffle these kids into other classrooms and, and overwhelm the 00:34:27.089 --> 00:34:28.829 couple of other teachers I have. 00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:32.789 So sometimes we, we don't have great options. 00:34:32.839 --> 00:34:36.584 The option is not simply obviously just getting another great 00:34:36.644 --> 00:34:38.234 high-powered science teacher. 00:34:38.684 --> 00:34:42.824 Um, so we have to be creative and thoughtful about what is the right 00:34:42.824 --> 00:34:45.794 solution for that, um, across the board. 00:34:46.544 --> 00:34:51.594 And we work with districts in every configuration from rural and remote to 00:34:51.624 --> 00:34:54.474 tribal to border, to urban, to everything. 00:34:54.924 --> 00:34:58.674 And again, I think that has given us a sense and a lens of understanding. 00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:02.694 And that's what we tried to capture in this book is how do you draw upon 00:35:02.694 --> 00:35:05.094 a solution that can really help. 00:35:05.994 --> 00:35:11.124 And identify as as a school leader, as a system leader, as you were talking about, 00:35:11.124 --> 00:35:12.864 what do you do in that circumstance? 00:35:13.494 --> 00:35:16.974 and, and and we provide very practical conversations about 00:35:16.974 --> 00:35:18.324 what teacher leaders should do. 00:35:18.324 --> 00:35:22.314 But our view is that teacher leaders are a key solution to. 00:35:23.064 --> 00:35:24.294 Part of this problem. 00:35:24.294 --> 00:35:28.164 So in that circumstance, in the example you just gave, you went in 00:35:28.344 --> 00:35:32.934 as the, as the school leader and tried to provide an alternative idea. 00:35:33.564 --> 00:35:36.294 Um, and again, you have a lot of other things on your plate. 00:35:36.294 --> 00:35:38.904 You're trying as a school leader to, to catch lots of things. 00:35:38.904 --> 00:35:41.844 And your major concern is, I, I don't wanna lose this person 'cause 00:35:41.849 --> 00:35:43.134 I don't have a good alternative. 00:35:44.049 --> 00:35:49.479 But the power of that teacher leader role working alongside a school leader is to 00:35:49.484 --> 00:35:54.399 help them coach, prioritize instructional leadership, bring in those strategies, 00:35:54.399 --> 00:35:59.799 but also have the ability and the time and the release to follow up and say. 00:36:01.374 --> 00:36:04.494 Teacher A I was here last week, we talked about this. 00:36:04.794 --> 00:36:09.354 Um, we've gotten you a better solution that's now working, but here's a way 00:36:09.354 --> 00:36:13.674 where now you've moved in this path that the profession has remained interesting 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:15.084 to you and you wanna stay into it. 00:36:15.174 --> 00:36:18.354 Here's how I think we could infuse some of those science standards, 00:36:18.354 --> 00:36:21.894 maybe into the approach you're currently using, or a way for us to 00:36:22.014 --> 00:36:23.604 think about it in a different way. 00:36:24.514 --> 00:36:28.504 And I think that leads us to, again, a couple of, a couple of keys as a 00:36:28.504 --> 00:36:32.374 profession that we should think about, um, and why teacher leaders are critical. 00:36:33.004 --> 00:36:37.744 I I think, I think in that case, what we see is, is teacher leaders can 00:36:37.744 --> 00:36:42.509 really help all of us, um, get it right rather than trying to be right. 00:36:43.449 --> 00:36:45.999 And I think that's one of the key challenges, right, that school 00:36:45.999 --> 00:36:49.299 leaders face all the time is they are, you are endlessly making 00:36:49.299 --> 00:36:55.419 decisions, um, because the, the, the position can feel un untenable. 00:36:56.049 --> 00:37:00.279 But if you have another person around you again to work with you to be 00:37:00.279 --> 00:37:03.879 that bridge and you know they've got the opportunity to release time and 00:37:03.879 --> 00:37:05.349 they're not in it, they're not in that. 00:37:05.434 --> 00:37:06.424 Same role. 00:37:06.724 --> 00:37:08.164 It lets you do certain parts. 00:37:08.164 --> 00:37:09.694 It lets them do certain parts. 00:37:10.084 --> 00:37:13.264 Um, so again, it helps us all get it right rather than, than 00:37:13.264 --> 00:37:14.794 ultimately just trying to be right. 00:37:15.454 --> 00:37:20.524 I think the second part is, I think professionally and and I'll, I'll go 00:37:20.529 --> 00:37:25.954 out on a limb and say this, but I think that, I think we need to be reminded 00:37:26.284 --> 00:37:32.194 as professionals in equal parts, if not more so than we need to be instructed. 00:37:33.204 --> 00:37:37.164 And what I mean by that, right, is lots of times we may have learned 00:37:37.164 --> 00:37:41.544 or seen or shared or been exposed to good strategies, good solutions. 00:37:42.084 --> 00:37:46.314 But in the profession we don't often have that hand, that person who's around to 00:37:46.314 --> 00:37:51.564 help us with quick corrections, hallway conversations, a discussion, the routine 00:37:51.564 --> 00:37:56.784 solution, um, where I can just pop next door or someone's coming into my room. 00:37:56.949 --> 00:38:01.029 Periodically with regular cadence and saying, oh, I noticed this happened. 00:38:01.389 --> 00:38:06.159 Um, remember here's a good strategy for when that occurs, but rather if 00:38:06.309 --> 00:38:11.049 the building principles can only show up once to twice of a semester, and 00:38:11.054 --> 00:38:16.809 for a drive through observation, you don't get that reminded and therefore 00:38:16.809 --> 00:38:19.479 you feel back to our conversation about going to a conference. 00:38:19.479 --> 00:38:21.969 You feel like you always need to go get a new solution. 00:38:22.629 --> 00:38:27.339 When in reality, most of our world is built around reminders, right? 00:38:27.579 --> 00:38:31.389 Reminders to put our seatbelt on, to put our, I mean, we're reminded 00:38:31.389 --> 00:38:34.599 to do all these types of things, but in our profession we don't. 00:38:34.629 --> 00:38:36.249 We want to learn all the time. 00:38:36.249 --> 00:38:39.999 We don't often wanna be reminded that we need to do good strategies, and 00:38:39.999 --> 00:38:41.499 that's where these roles are critical. 00:38:41.744 --> 00:38:44.139 And the third thing I would say is that teacher leaders really 00:38:44.139 --> 00:38:45.999 make those localized solutions. 00:38:45.999 --> 00:38:47.889 So in the example you just gave. 00:38:48.579 --> 00:38:48.849 Right. 00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:52.719 If I went to a national conference, I might learn a strategy, but how do I 00:38:52.724 --> 00:38:56.829 take that strategy I learned and apply it to the circumstance you just gave me? 00:38:57.399 --> 00:39:00.669 And that's where that teacher leader is critical because they know. 00:39:01.674 --> 00:39:06.834 The community, the system, the school, the family, the nature of the children 00:39:06.834 --> 00:39:12.774 in every classroom, because they bring that filter for the localized solution 00:39:13.254 --> 00:39:18.414 and they help translate that national strategy or best curriculum or new idea 00:39:18.714 --> 00:39:22.344 from the state department, from the school system, whoever brought it forward. 00:39:22.754 --> 00:39:26.594 And they bring it into the school because they know how to translate it. 00:39:27.134 --> 00:39:30.014 And that's why we think these profess, these professional positions 00:39:30.014 --> 00:39:35.094 are again vital to rebounding our profession and elevating the 00:39:35.094 --> 00:39:36.474 opportunity for every student. 00:39:36.984 --> 00:39:40.714 Jethro Jones: Yeah, I, I absolutely agree with a lot of that, especially 00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:42.454 the idea of localized solutions. 00:39:42.544 --> 00:39:49.309 Um, I. It's all well and good if there's data saying this specific thing works. 00:39:49.729 --> 00:39:54.679 But if you know that it doesn't work in your school, there's no point in 00:39:54.769 --> 00:39:58.579 in going through all the effort to make it and try to force it to work 00:39:58.909 --> 00:40:00.919 when you know it's not going to work. 00:40:00.949 --> 00:40:04.849 And, and you know that because you're there and you've seen and 00:40:04.849 --> 00:40:07.459 you've been there and you've seen these things work and not work. 00:40:07.819 --> 00:40:10.909 And so there are things that you can shortcut and use. 00:40:11.449 --> 00:40:15.319 Your own experience and wisdom to make those decisions. 00:40:15.649 --> 00:40:19.489 And this is one of those keys, like when we were talking about 00:40:19.489 --> 00:40:20.689 ownership of their learning. 00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:26.119 Like you don't just learn things only from going to a national conference or 00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:28.579 only from taking a course at a college. 00:40:29.209 --> 00:40:31.399 You learn things every, every single day. 00:40:31.399 --> 00:40:35.509 And that piece about being reminded about what works. 00:40:35.569 --> 00:40:40.999 And one of my favorite examples of this was I was, I was a second 00:40:41.004 --> 00:40:45.319 year teacher and w was I would ask, I would give students direction. 00:40:45.319 --> 00:40:49.969 I. Ask them a question, and then I would interrupt myself and say 00:40:49.969 --> 00:40:52.729 something that I forgot to say or I'd say, all right, everybody get to work. 00:40:52.789 --> 00:40:54.799 Oh, one more thing I forgot is this. 00:40:55.159 --> 00:40:56.839 And I did that all the time. 00:40:56.989 --> 00:41:01.309 And my partner teacher who was, who'd been around for a while, he was 00:41:01.314 --> 00:41:06.139 like, Hey, when you do that, you like sabotage yourself every single time. 00:41:06.649 --> 00:41:08.509 And I was like, oh, what do I do instead? 00:41:08.509 --> 00:41:13.339 And he said, just stop and think for a minute and say, do I, have 00:41:13.339 --> 00:41:14.749 I given them all the information? 00:41:15.394 --> 00:41:17.284 Then say, alright, now you can get to work. 00:41:17.434 --> 00:41:19.444 Like, that's it, that's all you have to do. 00:41:19.504 --> 00:41:21.094 It's not rocket science. 00:41:21.094 --> 00:41:22.084 It's very simple. 00:41:22.654 --> 00:41:24.604 And and that helped a ton. 00:41:24.724 --> 00:41:28.349 And I, I was able to change that behavior and then every time I noticed 00:41:28.349 --> 00:41:31.829 somebody else doing it, I was able to say, oh, hey, I see what you're doing. 00:41:31.859 --> 00:41:32.699 I've done that too. 00:41:33.059 --> 00:41:34.949 Here's the advice I got and it works. 00:41:35.319 --> 00:41:36.969 So the question that we didn't get to. 00:41:38.064 --> 00:41:41.364 And I would love to have you back on again in the future because I 00:41:41.364 --> 00:41:44.994 feel like we could go down so many different paths in our conversation. 00:41:45.304 --> 00:41:47.674 The question we didn't get to is what the role of the 00:41:47.674 --> 00:41:49.534 principal is in this situation. 00:41:49.564 --> 00:41:52.534 'cause a lot of the things you said, the five things are all 00:41:52.534 --> 00:41:54.004 traditionally principal roles. 00:41:54.064 --> 00:41:59.344 And so, um, for, you know, we'll, I'll have you back on and we'll 00:41:59.344 --> 00:42:03.154 talk more about the role of the principal specifically and, um. 00:42:03.499 --> 00:42:06.109 Because we're, we're kind of running up on time here, but 00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:07.789 this was a great conversation. 00:42:07.789 --> 00:42:10.489 The last question that I ask is about principals. 00:42:10.849 --> 00:42:14.959 What is one thing that a principal can do this week to be 00:42:14.959 --> 00:42:17.029 a Transformative leader like you? 00:42:17.034 --> 00:42:17.194 Josh? 00:42:18.194 --> 00:42:18.484 Joshua Barnett: Well. 00:42:19.484 --> 00:42:24.884 Say, having trained and worked with 10,000 system and school leaders, um, 00:42:25.034 --> 00:42:29.414 I would, I would say that the, the key strategy that we would, we would focus 00:42:29.414 --> 00:42:38.144 on and encourage is to rely on those positions that are around us for success. 00:42:38.654 --> 00:42:44.264 Um, that, that, that the opportunity to be a group and to have those 00:42:44.264 --> 00:42:47.474 other leaders, um, teacher leaders. 00:42:48.269 --> 00:42:52.979 Content leaders, other individuals that are there, um, to let them and 00:42:52.979 --> 00:42:57.719 their expertise be a part of that conversation to create high expectations, 00:42:58.349 --> 00:43:02.159 um, and equitable opportunities for every classroom and every student. 00:43:02.724 --> 00:43:04.104 I think those are key. 00:43:04.194 --> 00:43:07.314 Um, being a, being a leader, a school leader, a system leader, 00:43:07.314 --> 00:43:10.974 a state leader as you, as you shared, it's hard to do any job. 00:43:11.454 --> 00:43:13.434 Um, and none of us have been everything. 00:43:13.704 --> 00:43:16.794 And if, if any of us could be everything by the time we got to 00:43:16.794 --> 00:43:19.464 it, people would say, well, it's been so long since you were me, 00:43:19.464 --> 00:43:20.874 you don't know this anymore anyway. 00:43:21.714 --> 00:43:26.019 Um, so it's not possible for all of us to do all those things, but I. School 00:43:26.019 --> 00:43:31.719 leaders should really, um, take time to recognize that, that they have 00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:33.609 talent and capabilities around them. 00:43:34.184 --> 00:43:36.254 Lean on the capacity of those others. 00:43:36.314 --> 00:43:41.624 Allow us all to have continuous learning, collaboration, focus on data. 00:43:41.924 --> 00:43:43.934 And again, I would go back to those three points. 00:43:43.994 --> 00:43:46.454 Teacher leaders and instructional leadership teams. 00:43:46.844 --> 00:43:50.304 They help us get it right rather than trying to be right. 00:43:50.729 --> 00:43:55.319 Um, they can help us be reminded rather than simply seeking new instruction and 00:43:55.324 --> 00:43:59.969 new solutions, and ultimately, they can help us ensure localized solutions are 00:43:59.969 --> 00:44:03.179 carried out in every classroom across the 00:44:03.179 --> 00:44:03.719 system. 00:44:03.939 --> 00:44:06.759 Jethro Jones: So let's, let's be really actionable. 00:44:07.299 --> 00:44:11.739 What's something that a principal can do to rely on a teacher leader this week? 00:44:12.189 --> 00:44:13.509 What would be your advice? 00:44:13.629 --> 00:44:14.619 How can they do that? 00:44:14.619 --> 00:44:16.839 Like, what action step can they take to do that? 00:44:18.684 --> 00:44:22.224 Joshua Barnett: I think giving them the time to go through the 00:44:22.224 --> 00:44:26.454 building and have a conversation with every teacher in the building. 00:44:26.964 --> 00:44:32.034 So the exact example you gave about that partner who said, I gave a key 00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:36.804 strategy, and then I was able to hopefully follow up and observe you and say, 00:44:36.804 --> 00:44:39.114 oh Jet, I saw you use that strategy. 00:44:39.114 --> 00:44:39.684 Great job. 00:44:40.629 --> 00:44:44.859 But that took knowing you being present and have that capability. 00:44:44.859 --> 00:44:50.619 So I would say give the teacher leaders in your building time to have access 00:44:50.624 --> 00:44:54.699 to other teachers that will create the culture of the high expectations. 00:44:54.894 --> 00:44:55.494 Jethro Jones: Very good. 00:44:55.914 --> 00:44:57.804 Um, this, this has been awesome. 00:44:57.804 --> 00:45:01.524 Thank you so much for being part of this and, um, what's your 00:45:01.524 --> 00:45:04.194 preferred way of people reaching out and connecting with you? 00:45:05.194 --> 00:45:08.014 Joshua Barnett: What we'd love for anyone who'd be interested in, in the 00:45:08.014 --> 00:45:13.369 book or our organization, certainly go to NI e.org, visit our website, 00:45:13.369 --> 00:45:16.429 see more about what we've done, the data and impact of our reach. 00:45:17.094 --> 00:45:20.484 Certainly follow our organization at iet. 00:45:20.544 --> 00:45:25.314 Teach or follow me personally at Barnett. 00:45:25.864 --> 00:45:26.104 Jethro Jones: Excellent. 00:45:26.119 --> 00:45:28.729 Thank you very much for being part of Transformative principle 00:45:28.729 --> 00:45:30.229 on the B Podcast Network. 00:45:30.229 --> 00:45:32.029 It's been great chatting with you today, Josh. 00:45:32.029 --> 00:45:32.539 Thank you. 00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:33.230 Joshua Barnett: Thank you. 00:45:33.285 --> 00:45:34.105 Thanks for having me.