CAT intro === Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen. Hello, and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Zoe, and it's great that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promote ways to help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish. This, this podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's Center for Autism [00:01:00] and Theology, which we've shortened to CAT. If you'd like to access the transcript to this episode, it can be found via the link in the show notes. On today's CAT Chat episode, I'm joined by Krysia, and in theme with our current, um, autism, neurodiversity, and sacred text series, we thought we'd chat a little bit around kind of rejection sensitivity and, um, feelings of shame around, um, maybe not being understood, um, for our ways of inter- our neurodivergent ways of interpreting the Bible. Um, so yeah, Krysia, I don't know if you wanna, like, start by speaking about what we're talking about when we say, like, shame and rejection sensitivity. Because these are themes we've touched on in previous CAT Chat episodes but not really spoken about. Krysia: Yeah. So I guess for me, it came out with Zoe and I sitting there going, "What haven't we discussed yet, and what really resonates, and what can we talk about?" And it really struck me that we haven't talked [00:02:00] about the shame of when people don't understand us or where we're coming from, and then the literal gut punch that comes with it. So there's... And I guess gut punches, we're kind of both sitting here smiling, is something we've both known quite a bit in our experiences in kind of just being as a neurodivergent person within, uh, church spaces. Um, so rejection sensitivity sometimes is described as re- rejection sensitive dysphoria and has been talked quite a lot about in relation to ADHDers, but it's increasingly being spoken about in relation to autistic people. So we think it's a pan neurodivergent experience where there's these really small slights people might pick up behaviorally of what someone says, um, or if we're told that perhaps your kind of way of doing things or saying things or seeing things isn't right, or we're turned down for something. It's not just a kind of small kind of 24 hours to process it, and then we feel a bit [00:03:00] glum, and then we kind of move on about things, but it can re-pop up again, and again, and again, very much like an in- for me, it feels very intrusive and very, very visceral. But there's a very much embodied aspect to this as well, where it can literally feel so overwhelming physically. I'm not quite sure how to describe it, because it is so overwhelming. Um, but there's been some fantastic, um, podcasts very recently by ADHD Love if you want to find out a bit more. She's described it fantastically, so she'll probably go into much more depth than we are here. And there's quite a bit on kind of when we talk about people going for jobs or in friendships. But Zoe and I also thought that actually it's really relevant, neurodivergent Christians in church spaces, and including how we might inter- interpret the Bible as well, and how people might react to, because we have such a different way of being in the world. [00:04:00] If people don't understand that, and we've already been dis- disbelieved by so many people, that actually it can be just that much more a punch to us if people don't necessarily understand where we're coming from. Zoe: It's so interesting, and I think especially for me, like, rejection sensitivity isn't something I've thought about much at all during my research, but then looking back at my data, I can see it so clearly in a lot of my participants' experiences. Like, the amount people were just, like, worried that people would, like, perceive them as stupid or, like, um, think that they weren't good enough or not managing to do something. Um, and that really stressed people out and really worried people. Um, and then, like, again, like, I actually just got up here 'cause it was when you were saying, like, you don't really know how to describe that physical embodied experience. One of my participants described, like, having to read the Bible out loud in a Bible study, [00:05:00] and she was like, "It's total panic. You start to get hot. Um, your brain's not engaging. There's, like, overloads." Um, like, just all this kind of, like, almost, like, a feeling of, like, disengagement. Like, her brain is, like, empty in some ways, but in some ways it's, like, completely overloaded. Um- And like, just that like pa- like total feeling of panic and like brain shutting down and getting warm and all that because she was like worried that people would think she was stupid. And I think that, I'm not saying that's necessarily rejection sensitivity, I'm reading that into what she shares, but I think it describes really well that feeling of like worrying about how other people perceive you if you do something wrong. Um, yeah. Krysia: Yeah, definitely. And I think certainly the warmness is very much something that I experience, and I don't think there's any one way to ex- the kind of the- Mm the embodied experience of rejection sensitivity or [00:06:00] RSD is. And I've heard people talk about it before being, feeling a lot like s- post-traumatic stress and kind of within that framework, whi- which is really interesting, 'cause that's kind of, it almost feels like a traumatic, traumatic stress reaction to something because of what's happened previously in terms of people not believing you or you having to mask so much and kind of keep yourself safe. And I guess that's almost really interesting where we were also saying before that- Masking in a way can protect us, but also it doesn't communicate to others how we're actually feeling, and it makes it a bit harder to kind of have these conversations around things like shame when they are just quite difficult topics as they are Zoe: there's also that fear, like a lot of my participants, um, talked about worrying that people would think their dyslexia was just [00:07:00] being used as an excuse. Um, or, like, that kind of feeling of, like, "Oh, well, like, that's difficult, but y- that's life. You need to get on with it." And I think, I do wonder as well if, like, with rejection sensitivity, there's an added layer of, um, people doubting diagnosises. Um, and that is, I suppose, like when we're in the context of, like, church and stuff, that I, yeah, I wonder if that is also, like, an added layer of fear. Um, for people, it's like you're not only being rejected for your thoughts, but some people will genuinely question your, like, the validity of your diagnosis. And, um, that- Your existence as well. Yeah, yeah. Krysia: To some, to some extent. And there's gonna be always communities that are really accepting and want to learn more, and there's always gonna be communities that are gonna be, "Hang on a minute." Gonna raise their eyebrow a bit. And it's just so, it's so difficult, because we don't always know which way it's gonna swing. Um, but [00:08:00] I think it's part of, I guess, the c- the kind of context that we live in with all the various pressures. It is almost something that so many neurodivergent people experience and are only starting now to get the language for. Because I remember when I was a lot younger, I very much had this experience, including in church, and I didn't know what it was. I just thought I was too sensitive or being difficult, and everyone else could cope with it and deal with it. But actually, it's only been since we've learned about things like how we might behave might be quite different to how we're feeling, and things like masking to protect ourselves, and as a trauma response. And that there are actually many more people that actually experience the world like I do, that things go, "Hang on a, a minute. There's something a bit different going on here." Zoe: Yeah, and I think it's really interesting as like what you said there about, um, recognizing that there's other people that experience the same things. And I think again, it's like that's where it's so important to have conversations because [00:09:00] like, as we've talked about before, shame is alleviated when we discuss things and are open and be like, "Oh, actually I experienced that too." And I think again, that's where it's so important that faith communities, um, whatever that may look like, enables, enable there to be spaces where people can just talk about these things and be open and honest because that can be so much more powerful than we might expect, and can... It's not gonna completely like, um, reduce these feelings, but it's a starting point for just alleviating some of that shame. Krysia: Yeah. And I think especially kind of when we look at how fast and fast and furious kind of the wider world is today, actually to have a community that can kind of sit with that and hold those conversations, I just think is so important. Um, and especially when we think about there's always gonna be [00:10:00] neurodivergent people in a church or in a faith community, so it's really kind of being aware that we all are only just learning the language. Zoe: I think as well, like as you said, there will always be neurodivergent people in churches, and by rejecting people's approaches to scripture or faith, we're rejecting diversity really. And then the more that happens, the more people will fe- feel unable to contribute or will doubt themselves, and then, like, we're missing out on really, um, really valuable conversations and really valuable contributions from people who are different, um, because yeah, diversity brings Difference and difference is a good thing Krysia: Yeah, definitely . I guess in terms of practically, some are kind of finding some [00:11:00] resources is always use- useful. And it's not so much find resources so you can medicalize, medicalize this experience, it's more finding resources that can help give you words and language to describe what your experience is, and that there's always gonna be limitations, and things are gonna change and move. Um, but almost, kind of as I said, I didn't have that language, and I had experienced a lot of shame because I thought I was too much, too sensitive, too difficult. Actually, if we can, within churches, be okay with people coming forward with resources perhaps that come from outside of our faith group- And using them to help garner conversation within our own context, that can be a real power. And also being aware that different people might use slightly different words. And it is difficult because there's always this thing of who's right and [00:12:00] who's not. But it's, in a way, it's a starting point to have that conversation, and then be able to be continually be open to other different ways of explaining it that kind of suit and fits the person who you're engaging with. Kind of from a pastoral perspective, I'd say that's really important, that openness and ... Because a lot of this information isn't gonna come from kind of theological or religious-based sources. It's gonna come from outside. But there's gonna be really important pastoral, practical, and theological implications for this in our communities Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. And I think also, like a gentleness maybe, and a, like humility to listen to other people is also important. We, a few catch ups ago, we had that listener question where she was saying, like, she gets things wrong, and we were having a discussion around, well, who says that you are wrong? Like, there is often such like [00:13:00] specific ways that, um, questions are asked or, um, like often in things like Bible study or church, there's a specific answer being looked at. And I think again, that's where so many neurodivergent people can experience rejection because they're told that they are wrong. And I think it's just that being will- that willingness to say, "Well, actually, let's just listen to different views and value different opinions, and not just assume that we are right and other people are wrong." But kind of explore things together in a way that isn't belittling someone's beliefs or experiences. Um, and yeah, I mean, we discussed how that can be done a lot in the previous episode, but I think that kind of like humility and openness, um, and I suppose friendship in some ways is a really nice way to start. Just creating spaces where people can gradually, um, unlearn some of those like responses to rejection in [00:14:00] safe environments maybe. Krysia: Yeah. 'Cause I think there's a lot of... What I find is faith groups often want really tangible things they can do, which I find is fair. And I think given how stretched so many clergy are, I think that is absolutely kind of something quite tangible is needed. But at the same time if, and I guess this is also where I'm gonna slightly kind of throw an old ball at research as well, we want outcomes and we want things that are good and that improve people's lives, and we want nice laced boxes with bows on the top that are really easy and deliverable. And I think a lot of research within theology and research and religious studies just isn't like that, quite frankly. And when we, and I think this is where the needs of what people need versus what we can give, there is a slight difference, and I guess that's why relationships are just so important. Because A, religious groups and communities are made of people, [00:15:00] but also they're just, because they're so people-centric, you're never gonna get that nice laced Christmas present. It's always gonna be quite messy. You're gonna have different presents for different shapes, for different congregations and different groups. And that's I guess why I think relationships are just so important. And the kind of the gentleness that Zoe said, I think is so key because w- people who experience, have these feelings of in- intense rejection- And who might mask it or feel great shame aren't necessarily gonna walk around with a giant badge on them. Being kind, even though it's quite cliched, can be really quite powerful in these instances in terms of how we as a group can kind of knock along together and make it a really strong way forwards. Zoe: I think being kind is cliche when it's done in a shallow way. Yeah. Like, I don't know, maybe there should be, like, m- [00:16:00] is there a theology of kindness? I don't know, maybe we should, uh, write on that, Krysia. But, like, I think kindness, like, is... Yeah, kindness is a really good way forward if it's done very intentionally and very genuinely and very deeply, not just the sort of shallow- Yeah um, "Oh, we welcome everyone." Like- Yeah. That to me is niceness- ... if you're struggling- ... not kindness. Krysia: Yeah. Kindness is- Yeah ... actually, it's much deeper and it's much more relational. And it, you are okay- Yeah ... standing up for people and calling out what's wrong. You can do that from a point of kindness, whereas niceness is just much more of an appearance of being nice. Zoe: Yeah. I love that. Kindness is different from niceness, and I think that is at the heart of a lot of what we say on the podcast. Um- Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is such an interesting conversation, and I'm really excited, um, to hear more from Henna. Krysia, um, is interviewing Henna Cundill in a few months' time on rejection sensitivity. [00:17:00] She's done a lot of research in this area. Um, and I hope that, um, yeah, her doing that will give people the tools to, and the language to talk about these things and yeah. So I think that will be our September episode, I wanna say. Um, but yeah, it's been a really interesting chat and yeah, something- Yeah lots to really think about. Thank you so much for listening. Um, if you have any questions for us, you can message us at autismtheology on X or Instagram, or you can send us an email at cat@abdn.ac.uk. Even if it's just to say hi, we would love to hear from you. And as always, let us know if you have any questions. [00:18:00] Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology podcast. If you have any questions for us or just want to say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter @autismtheology.