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Dariusz: Welcome to Under 30 the podcast
series by the youth partnership that

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brings the research results, explores
trends in young people's lives and themes

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relevant for youth policy and practice.

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In previous episodes of our
podcast we have explored different

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topics covered in the latest Youth
Knowledge Book on Young People,

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Social Inclusion and Digitalization.

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In this episode, we would like to focus
on another topic you can find in the

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knowledge book, digitalization and social
inclusion of youth with disabilities.

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This topic is explored in two
articles, which you can find in chapter

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three and chapter four of the book.

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Today, we are having two authors of
these chapters, Roman Banari, who wrote

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an article in which he presents the
challenges for youth with disabilities

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related to accessible technology and
provides an insight into how they

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can benefit from ICT in order to be
included in participatory processes,

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education, and the labor market.

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And Judit Gombás, who is a co-author
of the article on digitalization for

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the empowerment of individuals with
visual impairments or blindness.

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My name is Dariusz Grzemny  together
with Lana Pasic, from the EU-Council of

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Europe youth partnership, we would like
to invite you to join us in this episode.

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Lana: Today,  we are speaking with
Roman Banari and Judit Gombás  about

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two of their chapters in a Youth
Knowledge Book and Social Inclusion,

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Digitalization, and Young People.

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The topic of today's podcast is
digitalization and ICT as a support

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for young people with disabilities.

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So we will start with Roman  who will
tell us about his chapter in the book.

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This is chapter three on
digitalization and ICT as a

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guarantee for the social inclusion
of young people with disabilities.

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Roman: Okay, thanks lana.

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As a start, I would like to say why I
chose this topic in order to make  some

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bridges,  connection between youth with
disability and  first of all, also I

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tend to create connection in the chapter
between the young people, civil society

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and the governmental structure in order
to ensure what  strategies and actions are

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connected to young people with disability
, in order to ensure that young people

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with disabilities are not left behind.

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So  ensuring that the EU standards and
national requirements related to social

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inclusion of young people are respected.

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So giving some, uh, insights on
how to ensure that the young people

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with disability have to be included
in youth actions  related to youth

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participation in decision-making process
and how governmental  structure could

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ensure what the youth disability,
with different forms of disability

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hearing or visual, could effectively
participate in participation processes.

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Also, I tend to make some connection
with youth, social inclusion standards

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related to smart cities, how these
could help, uh, in social inclusion

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and participation of young people
in the development of our society.

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As young people at the present do not
play so crucial role in a society as

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they are excluded or discriminated  due
to a lack of information accessible

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for them, or a lack of infrastructure.

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So due to digitalization and other
forms of accessibility of information

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or infrastructure, we will ensure
that young people are engaged actively

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in these forms of participation.

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Lana: Thank you Roman.

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And,  in your chapter, you cover different
groups of young people and different

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types of disabilities and the tools.

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And also you identify some of
the tools which are designed

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for youth with disabilities.

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On the other hand, Judit has taken a
very particular approach for her chapter,

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with her colleagues  Mária Magdolna
Flamich and Mária Rita Hoffmann, and

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they explored particularly digitalization
for the empowerment of individuals

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with visual impairment and blindness.

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So Judit what is it  that you explore
in your chapter and how does technology

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help young people, but also not only
young people with visual impairments

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Judit: Yeah.

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To share a personal background with you,
it's important to say that I am blind.

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Maria, my colleague, she's also
blind and Maria Rita Hoffmann,

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she's a low vision person.

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And actually, you know, we experienced
in all our life this change.

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Let me tell you examples, then
it's easier to understand.

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Eh, when I started my education,
I only had a possibility to use

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Braille to do all the reading and
writing in, um, my school years.

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And I was around 18 when
I got my first laptop.

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Already, you can imagine
what a huge change it was.

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I could, for example, simply write
my tests on the computer and give

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them on a pen drive to my teachers.

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So, you know, it meant a lot before
that we didn't have,  let's say a

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language, which we could both use.

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So I couldn't read or write,
um, you know, normal print.

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My teachers couldn't read or
write Braille, so that was tough.

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So everything like nowadays, what
we experience is that it's much,

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much, much easier to communicate,
thanks to digitalization.

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And another very important thing is that
it's just uncomparable what an amount of

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information blind and low vision people
can get a hold of thanks to the internet.

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Thanks to the possibility
of scanning materials.

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So like before that we only had,  in
the good old days, you know, audio tapes

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with audio books or Braille books, but
it was just way much less information.

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So actually the reason why we chose
this topic and we wanted to give what we

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wanted to put together a very practical
chapter to show our audience in what

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ways digitalization can help blind
and low vision people, how we are able

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to use computers or smart devices.

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And so the technology that enables us
to be more proficient in our studies, in

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work, in free time activities, and so on.

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Dariusz: Judit, you quote  in the end
of your article the director of the

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IBM national support center for persons
with disabilities who said that for most

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people, technology makes things easier
and for people with  disabilities,

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technology makes things possible.

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So if you can say a few words what's made
possible for people with disabilities

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thanks to technology, thanks to ICT.

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Or in practical terms, how ICT, how
technology, how digitalization is

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actually supporting  the daily routine
or daily tasks, basically your life,

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the life of people will disabilities.

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Judit: Wow.

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I should mention lots of things.

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I couldn't be chatting with
you now without a screen reader

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and an accessible webpage.

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So, you know, it's really important
that I not only have a screen reader,

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but also this page is accessible.

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I can read the buttons well, I can
use it well, or I can do my shopping.

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I can read all the full list of
ingredients of the products, if I'm

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interested, you know, earlier I just
went to the shop, try to find a shop

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assistant, told the person what I need.

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But I had to be much more focused.

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It had to be a very quick
process, you know, because  the

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shop assistants are super busy.

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So now  I can use a lot of time to
read through all the things that

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I'm interested in, if the web page
of course is accessible, or I can

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simply listen to a audio book,  on
my smartphone when I'm sitting on

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the train or the public transport.

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So lots of things are possible.

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And there's one thing
I would love to stress.

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Is that,  we do need to Braille.

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I'm really for using Braille and there
are fantastic ways  of comparing,

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let me say old technology and new
technology, so there are devices called

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the refreshable Braille display that
you can connect to your computer.

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So you can simply read in Braille
what can be seen on the screen.

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And this is very important because, you
know, blind students, low vision students

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also need to learn, correct spelling.

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Also need to learn what a text looks
like, for example, and these things

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are  way easier  with a Braille display.

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So when you listen to an audio text,
you just can't  learn spelling.

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So, you know, I think  what is very
important today or these days is to see

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that, uh, that we should, um, find a good
balance between digitalization and all

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the new technology and how to combine it
well and efficiently with all technology.

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But really I could tell you a super long
list of the things that it helps with.

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For example  with my phone, I can check
what  bank notes I have in my wallet.

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Hungarian forints are all the
same size, so there's no other

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way for me to recognize them.

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Or I can check colors  with my smartphone.

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So really lots and lots of things.

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Dariusz: That's very interesting because
usually when we read or hear about people

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or young people with disabilities, when
it comes to their contact with digital

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technologies, there's a lot of focus
on what challenges they are facing.

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And probably  there's a lot of challenges.

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And actually when we turn upside
down what you just actually said,

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this would be the challenges.

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That the page is not accessible,
that you can not follow, that

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you cannot read  and so on.

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So I think that these
are a lot of challenges.

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There's a lot of standards  that
could be applied when it comes

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to making technology accessible.

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How we actually know about them.

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If we are a youth organization, if
we are a group of young people and

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we want to involve young people,  how
can we know about these standards?

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So Roman,   what we actually should start
with as let's say youth organization, when

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we really want to involve young people
with disabilities in our activities, or

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give them the space for participation
and involve young people, hearing the

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voice of young people with disabilities.

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Roman: Okay, thanks Darek.

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In fact, we can start from our everyday
world, where can see  without these

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standards, without knowing about this.

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So we can see accessibility of our
offices, of our spaces where do we

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tend to organise some activities.

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Even our websites  could be a
observed if we are accessible or not

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accessible for those with disability.

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So I'm having some filters for
accessibility for people with

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disabilities, but then when it's coming
to more concrete standards, you can

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use ISO standards which regulate all
steps or how we can use one or other

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tools for people with disabilities.

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Or some other general principles of
accessibility are  developed   by UN

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where we have a possibility to use
seven principles of accessibility

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related to youth with disability.

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But more effectively, I suppose,  Judit
will support my idea , we have to involve

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people with disability in developing
these concrete apps or different tools

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for people with disability because we are
developers, but without knowing exactly

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how people with disability feel this, how
they use this in their daily life, without

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this, we will not prepare any tools
which are individualised for each person.

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Judit: If I may add something.

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Yeah, I absolutely, I fully
agree with Roman that we need to

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ask persons with disabilities.

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And you may say as an NGO c'mon,
but I don't know any blind

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developers who could give me advice.

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I would say no worries about that
because I'm pretty sure in each

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country there's uh, at least one big
organization, but I'm pretty sure in

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most countries, there are many big
organizations of people with disabilities.

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In Hungary I would say to the Federation
for the blind and visually impaired,

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if we just stay with people with visual
impairments, but all other bigger

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disability groups have these organizations
supporting them and they can give you

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practical advice on who to turn to.

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So I don't think that, you know,
all the NGOs should start trying

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to learn all these standards.

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On the other hand, it would be
really cool to have web developers

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who are into the standards and
who are aware of the standards.

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Unfortunately, my experience is that
we, we just don't have many of them.

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So I believe it does help a lot
if you, as an NGO, for example,

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try to find a bigger disability
organization who you can turn to.

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And another thing is, all these
support pages are really important.

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So for example, if you want to use,
I don't know, zoom in your activities

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or any other  platform, video
conferencing platform before you decide

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you can either ask a person with a
disability or, or you can check their

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support sites to see to what extent
those are disability friendly pages.

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Roman: If I may add, for example, after
this chapter, we asked national youth

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council to decide to change our webpage
in order to make it accessible, according

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to what I presented in this chapter.

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So, we found money for this change and
the, we made these accessibility standards

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for people with disabilities, different
kinds of the accessibility standards.

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But here I wanted to point out, uh, yeah,
we sometimes know how to deal with this

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and how to engage our community in order
to make some information accessible.

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But unfortunately in case of civil
society, we have a lot of problems,

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uh, related to accessibility because
for a world changing or adaptation

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of our webpage or even more, offices
and so on,we need some resources.

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Without having support from a diverse
donors or government, we will not

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be able to ensure these in practice.

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So, for this we tend to have good
collaboration with all actors who

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are interested in this, in order to
ensure tha we are able to make minimal

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accessibility standards in our activities.

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But without supports, I am not
sure if civil society will be

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able to conduct and to ensure that
we are fully accessible for all.

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Judit: Just one more thought.

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Earlier Darek, you referred to perhaps
you said side effects or negative things.

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Now one super big obstacle I
would say is, uh, is also a Roman

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mentioned the price of things.

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So lots of accessibility
devices are super  expensive.

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The refreshable Braille displays
that I mentioned before are so, so

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expensive at least with Hungarian
standards, for example, that very,

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very few people have them in Hungary.

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And it's also a problem that
often developers charge much

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higher prices if you ask them to
develop an accessible webpage.

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Which, you know, should be a basic
expectation to have your pages accessible.

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I mean, the page that you develop.

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So yeah, there's a lot
to do, uh, finance wise.

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Dariusz: Yeah, this was actually
one of my points I wanted to ask

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you that this is probably one of
the points that discourages a lot

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of  smaller organizations that maybe
do not have enough resources to

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standardize, or to keep up with the
standards that are available in order

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to make the websites  accessible.

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But I quite liked  what you said at
the beginning that maybe it's not

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important to start with big things.

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It's maybe important to start with
something that you are able to start with.

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And one of the things that doesn't cost
anything is actually asking people with

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disabilities, what they would need, what
would make their life easier or  how

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it would make it possible for them  to
be included  in  what they are doing.

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I think this is maybe some kind of
advice  for policymakers, for people

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who are establishing programs that
are supporting,  financing youth

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organizations, to be able to actually
support organizations in making things

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possible for people with disabilities.

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So making the websites or any material
that they are producing online,

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accessible for people with disabilities.

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I think there's a lot  good
initiatives that are open source that

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are free as well that you can use.

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Probably they are not so good,
but this is also a good start,

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maybe for youth organizations.

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Lana: I think as technology is a fast
changing and developing, and there are

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so many tools and artificial intelligence
is also developing and supporting

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us kind of in using these tools.

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But the big moment as well is
advocacy and kind of demands

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for things to be accessible.

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At the youth partnership we have seen
through our conversations with young

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people as well these kind of questions
regarding the materials that we produce.

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And these podcast, for example, are just
one of the ways in which we try to make

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our publication and now research closer
to different groups of young people.

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And it is also a question of not only
accessibility in terms of hearing

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things now, instead of reading the
book, but also presenting materials

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in different languages,  using
subtitles for some of our videos.

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And I think in the youth sector now
it's quite expected to use transcripts,

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for example, for the videos and for
podcasts, instead of just producing the

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materials  only in one form or one format.

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Judit: Yeah.

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I think it's very important
what you are now saying.

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And I believe we just cannot stress
enough that,  you know, when you hear

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the word accessibility, most people
immediately think of wheelchairs and

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blind people, and we mustn't forget that
accessibility is important for everyone.

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So, I mean, you may be, I don't
know, coming from any country of

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the world that say you are moving
to Germany, but your standard of

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Germany is not high enough yet.

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Then for example, a document or a website
in easy language is important for you,

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helps you a lot, supports your daily life.

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I mean, you know, it's not that
easy language is only important for

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people who we have, I don't know,
learning difficulties, for example,

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or any other, reading difficulty.

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So like, or I don't know accessibility
of infrastructure is important for you

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if you have a baby in a push chair.

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So it's like accessibility means
way more than access  for people

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with disabilities  to digitalization
or to the infrastructure.

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Roman: We need the once again,
resources and those who have knowledge,

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how to make, for example, easy
to read materials for people with

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disabilities, with mental (disabilities).

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So, here there is another problem, in
case of a civil society representatives

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who do not have some much money for this.

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Yeah, we are interested to promote
vis accessibility standards, but as

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usually we don't have the knowledge
and the expertise, how to do this.

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And in case we  do not have money for
experts, we will not provide this.

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And this is a problem of civil
society and, my request is to engage

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more governments or other state
institutions who will contribute to

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the accessibility of the youth sector.

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Dariusz: Yeah.

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I think the resources are important,
but I think what's very important is

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also the change of mind, , or change
a little bit of perspective because I

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think that sometimes if you really want
to include people with disabilities

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in our activities, any activities
of any organization or institution,

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and then we are applying for funds.

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Very often we don't think that
we can actually apply for funds

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to make things accessible.

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And I think that this is like the way of
thinking or how you organize our activity.

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I mean, always to think about possibility
of including  the request for funds

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that actually would make things
accessible for people with disabilities.

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And I think that  this is the starting
point, whether it will be granted

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or not, it's another issue, but I
think thinking and putting it forward

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is the first step that you actually
can do, which I think is simple.

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Thank you all for your contribution.

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And just to remind our listeners, you can
find the articles we have been talking

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about in chapters three and four of the
Youth Knowledge Book on Young People,

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Social Inclusion and Digitalization.

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Thank you for listening.