WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

00:00:00.210 --> 00:00:02.110
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:05.260
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.330
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

00:00:08.379 --> 00:00:11.889
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.139
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

00:00:15.229 --> 00:00:15.999
I have a request.

00:00:16.520 --> 00:00:22.009
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.319
It really helps us get this work done.

00:00:24.529 --> 00:00:27.299
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

00:00:27.805 --> 00:00:30.645
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

00:00:31.345 --> 00:00:35.285
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

00:00:35.884 --> 00:00:38.485
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

00:00:40.664 --> 00:00:40.814
com.

00:00:41.065 --> 00:00:43.665
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

00:00:44.419 --> 00:00:46.579
welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

00:00:46.629 --> 00:00:48.129
This is gonna be a fun one.

00:00:48.529 --> 00:00:52.729
I've got Kacha Melhorn here who's
German, but lives in the Netherlands

00:00:53.029 --> 00:00:59.629
and she lives in the, or near the
town of Crogan Groan as we all Grogan.

00:00:59.910 --> 00:01:02.160
And she runs Horse Kids Crogan.

00:01:02.440 --> 00:01:07.830
But she's also a, an academic, a
jolly, clever brainiac doctor, doctory

00:01:07.830 --> 00:01:12.109
type person, and she's a psychologist
at the University of Crogan.

00:01:12.539 --> 00:01:18.419
Dealing with ai, but not with the
development of ai, but with teaching

00:01:18.539 --> 00:01:24.720
students how to actually research and not
rely on ai, which is interesting that we

00:01:24.929 --> 00:01:30.270
have to pay attention to that in the, in
the days she's not doing that, of course,

00:01:30.270 --> 00:01:31.979
she's on the farm and she's working with.

00:01:32.864 --> 00:01:37.544
The equine assisted field in various
ways with various populations out

00:01:37.544 --> 00:01:40.664
there in rather beautiful countryside
in the Northern Netherlands.

00:01:40.664 --> 00:01:45.585
So she's really got a very broad focus
and I'm very excited to talk to her.

00:01:45.854 --> 00:01:49.484
I've known catcher for a while and
I've watched her develop her program

00:01:49.484 --> 00:01:53.684
and I've always been kind of silently
in awe going, whoa, how'd you do that?

00:01:53.684 --> 00:01:54.674
Whoa, how'd you do that?

00:01:54.674 --> 00:01:57.434
So now we finally get a
chance to ask the lady.

00:01:57.764 --> 00:01:59.804
So Kacha, thank you
for coming on the show.

00:02:00.194 --> 00:02:05.774
Can you tell us who you are and why
you got into this equine assisted thing

00:02:05.774 --> 00:02:09.435
when you could so easily just had a
cushy number at the university and

00:02:09.435 --> 00:02:11.084
just ridden horses in your spare time?

00:02:12.149 --> 00:02:14.010
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, first of
all, thank you for having me.

00:02:14.010 --> 00:02:16.560
I'm really honored When Eliana
asked, I thought like, wow, you

00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:20.010
have this amazing list of speakers,
and then what do I have to add?

00:02:20.070 --> 00:02:20.729
But that's,

00:02:21.029 --> 00:02:22.409
Rupert Isaacson: well, you're
an amazing speaker, but yeah.

00:02:22.500 --> 00:02:22.679
Okay.

00:02:22.929 --> 00:02:25.630
Katja Mehlhorn: So asking me
about horses, that's a long story.

00:02:25.630 --> 00:02:29.109
You know, I always loved horses and yeah.

00:02:29.140 --> 00:02:31.779
When you have to decide what kind
of job to do, everyone said like,

00:02:31.779 --> 00:02:33.640
yeah, we don't work in horses.

00:02:33.640 --> 00:02:35.500
Become like something real.

00:02:36.279 --> 00:02:41.440
So after looking into being a vet or
biologist, I ended up with psychology

00:02:41.440 --> 00:02:44.289
because I'm really interested in behavior.

00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:44.829
Mm-hmm.

00:02:45.070 --> 00:02:46.390
Animal or human, whatever.

00:02:46.630 --> 00:02:48.909
So that seemed to be kind of a good fit.

00:02:49.750 --> 00:02:53.919
And then I kind of got drawn
into a PhD and I started that.

00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:56.740
But yeah, research is cool.

00:02:56.740 --> 00:03:02.110
Psychology is cool, but the horses
always just had the stronger pool on me.

00:03:02.110 --> 00:03:03.320
Rupert Isaacson: Horses
a cool, yeah, yeah.

00:03:03.579 --> 00:03:03.820
Yeah.

00:03:04.195 --> 00:03:10.015
Katja Mehlhorn: So while I was doing a
postdoc actually in Pittsburgh, in the

00:03:10.015 --> 00:03:14.605
us I started volunteering at a center
that did writing for the handicapped.

00:03:14.695 --> 00:03:15.834
So a path center.

00:03:16.375 --> 00:03:18.084
And I thought, wow, that, that's it.

00:03:18.115 --> 00:03:19.165
That's what I need to do.

00:03:19.255 --> 00:03:20.245
That's so amazing.

00:03:21.445 --> 00:03:24.120
So yeah, why?

00:03:24.805 --> 00:03:25.045
Why?

00:03:25.045 --> 00:03:31.704
Yeah, why it you just, I mean, you
are happy yourself if you're with

00:03:31.704 --> 00:03:34.615
the horses, at least if you're a
crazy horse person like we are.

00:03:34.975 --> 00:03:35.214
Mm-hmm.

00:03:35.454 --> 00:03:37.675
You also see the effect on those kids.

00:03:37.735 --> 00:03:42.685
They had kids there who were in a
wheelchair, they seem barely conscious,

00:03:42.685 --> 00:03:46.375
kind of the head hanging down and they
were being rolled in and you thought like,

00:03:47.154 --> 00:03:49.135
po okay, we are gonna put you on a horse.

00:03:49.165 --> 00:03:52.675
And then they smiled and the parents said
like, wow, that's their smile of the week.

00:03:52.735 --> 00:03:54.745
And it just gives you goosebumps.

00:03:54.745 --> 00:03:59.245
See the, the effects that
it has or, yeah, very.

00:03:59.890 --> 00:04:05.709
Excited autistic kids, calming down on
the horse, kids saying their first words.

00:04:05.709 --> 00:04:06.909
It's just, yeah, yeah,

00:04:07.060 --> 00:04:07.329
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.029
Katja Mehlhorn: Magic is the,
the best word I can think of.

00:04:10.180 --> 00:04:10.510
Right.

00:04:10.570 --> 00:04:11.409
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's interesting.

00:04:11.440 --> 00:04:14.950
I'm always interested in this though
because, you know, I, I'm so terrible.

00:04:14.950 --> 00:04:16.450
I'm so, I'm so selfish.

00:04:16.849 --> 00:04:20.029
Of course I didn't get involved in
this until there was a gun to my

00:04:20.029 --> 00:04:22.600
head, you know, with my own son.

00:04:22.780 --> 00:04:27.730
And then luckily, fortunately for me,
you know, find, and him finding a, a

00:04:27.730 --> 00:04:30.400
way into his world through the horse.

00:04:30.610 --> 00:04:34.780
But I'm always rather intrigued by people
who come to it from the outside and say,

00:04:34.780 --> 00:04:37.270
yeah, I want to do this vocationally.

00:04:37.909 --> 00:04:39.530
Because it's not an
easy thing to do at all.

00:04:39.739 --> 00:04:46.640
Also now what you do at Horse Kids, GaN is
not like the standard path thing, right?

00:04:46.640 --> 00:04:47.989
So you started with that.

00:04:48.080 --> 00:04:50.690
So tell us how it differs.

00:04:51.500 --> 00:04:53.180
And why does it differ?

00:04:53.390 --> 00:04:57.320
What, how, why have you developed
in, what have you developed and why

00:04:57.320 --> 00:04:58.790
have you developed in that direction?

00:04:59.960 --> 00:05:02.350
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so when I did
the volunteered there at the Path

00:05:02.350 --> 00:05:07.300
Center, I became certified as a CER
path certified writing instructor.

00:05:07.305 --> 00:05:07.405
Mm-hmm.

00:05:08.050 --> 00:05:13.039
And, but they really have to focus
much more on the physical handicaps.

00:05:13.039 --> 00:05:13.099
Yeah.

00:05:13.249 --> 00:05:17.629
And being a psychologist, I was obviously
more interested in the, the mental part.

00:05:17.934 --> 00:05:18.214
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:05:18.294 --> 00:05:18.655
Mm-hmm.

00:05:19.155 --> 00:05:22.520
Katja Mehlhorn: And then also when
I started having my own center, like

00:05:22.520 --> 00:05:25.700
if you have people with wheelchairs
and things like that, you need a

00:05:25.700 --> 00:05:30.770
lot of infrastructure while the, the
mental stuff you can do much easier

00:05:30.770 --> 00:05:34.820
on a, on a small scale by yourself
or with a couple of volunteers.

00:05:35.030 --> 00:05:35.119
Mm-hmm.

00:05:35.119 --> 00:05:36.530
So that's the practical side.

00:05:37.429 --> 00:05:38.659
What I.

00:05:39.289 --> 00:05:46.039
Also really like is to be creative
and funny and, and really zoom

00:05:46.039 --> 00:05:47.899
in on the individual kids' needs.

00:05:47.899 --> 00:05:47.959
Hmm.

00:05:48.769 --> 00:05:52.939
And in the standard kind of part
setting, you have a group that kind

00:05:52.939 --> 00:05:57.409
of more or less just the same activity
and yeah, it always felt like it, it

00:05:57.559 --> 00:06:01.669
was magic in the one hand, but it also
felt like you could do more than, than

00:06:01.669 --> 00:06:03.709
what at least what they did there.

00:06:03.829 --> 00:06:04.039
Mm-hmm.

00:06:04.769 --> 00:06:08.819
If you have the resources, because
of course if you do it individually,

00:06:08.819 --> 00:06:11.789
it, it takes more resources than
if you help kids in a group.

00:06:12.509 --> 00:06:12.899
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:06:12.899 --> 00:06:16.894
And as you say, you know, the, the
standard therapeutic model that evolved

00:06:16.979 --> 00:06:22.829
in the USA UK and actually Germany
too, where you are from, really came

00:06:22.829 --> 00:06:28.209
about after World War II where people
basically missing limbs who'd been blown

00:06:28.209 --> 00:06:33.659
up were coming back home often to family
riding establishments because their.

00:06:34.864 --> 00:06:37.294
Father perhaps had been in
the cavalry and had started a

00:06:37.714 --> 00:06:39.154
riding school when they retired.

00:06:39.154 --> 00:06:41.044
That was a standard thing to do.

00:06:41.194 --> 00:06:45.544
So you had these people who were already
motivated to ride and perhaps already

00:06:45.544 --> 00:06:50.224
knew how to ride, coming back from the
war and then wanting to adapt, you know,

00:06:50.224 --> 00:06:51.934
figure out some sort of adaptation.

00:06:52.444 --> 00:06:56.344
I guess in our world, when we are
dealing, particularly with autism

00:06:56.344 --> 00:07:00.184
as well, is one isn't always dealing
with people who have the ability

00:07:00.184 --> 00:07:01.834
to follow top down instruction.

00:07:02.104 --> 00:07:02.194
Mm-hmm.

00:07:02.465 --> 00:07:06.754
And also who may or may not
be motivated to ride at all.

00:07:06.904 --> 00:07:11.054
That's, that's one of the things I often
find really interesting about our work is

00:07:11.054 --> 00:07:17.504
that we're letting the horse facilitate
a change in the brain, which could be

00:07:17.504 --> 00:07:21.344
riding, it could be something else, or it
could not be the horse at all, and we need

00:07:21.344 --> 00:07:23.054
to know how to do that without the horse.

00:07:23.084 --> 00:07:25.694
So I, I find that very exciting.

00:07:25.694 --> 00:07:26.984
But as you say, it takes.

00:07:27.884 --> 00:07:33.405
A certain resource rich environment
because it does require, if not

00:07:33.405 --> 00:07:36.314
one-to-one, at least very small groups.

00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:36.409
Mm-hmm.

00:07:36.659 --> 00:07:39.794
And if you've got groups, you
need a lot of, a lot of, you know,

00:07:40.005 --> 00:07:43.364
instructors or facilitators or
whatever we want to call ourselves.

00:07:43.865 --> 00:07:48.875
Let's just talk a bit now about your,
you've got a rather special program there.

00:07:49.085 --> 00:07:52.865
Can you give us a snapshot of what you do?

00:07:53.344 --> 00:07:53.495
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.

00:07:54.485 --> 00:07:54.635
Yeah.

00:07:54.635 --> 00:08:00.614
So we have the amazing luck to live on
this beautiful old Dutch farm with a small

00:08:00.614 --> 00:08:03.804
herd of seven horses, four of which I use.

00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:04.884
I, I hate the word use.

00:08:04.884 --> 00:08:08.424
I don't use horses by with,
in the therapy setting.

00:08:09.204 --> 00:08:14.934
And I have kids here, mainly
individual who come for sessions

00:08:14.934 --> 00:08:16.164
of one and a half hours.

00:08:16.854 --> 00:08:20.304
And then we work with
them on, on their goals.

00:08:20.484 --> 00:08:23.904
And of course you have to have like
properly written down, at least in

00:08:23.904 --> 00:08:27.144
the Netherlands, it's paid for by
the municipality, so you need the

00:08:27.144 --> 00:08:29.004
goals on the list and everything.

00:08:29.004 --> 00:08:29.454
Nice.

00:08:30.054 --> 00:08:32.754
But of course then the kid comes
in and maybe something totally

00:08:32.784 --> 00:08:34.854
different is going on on that day.

00:08:35.394 --> 00:08:35.574
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:08:35.604 --> 00:08:40.614
Katja Mehlhorn: So it often feels like
you kind of set a safe space where they

00:08:40.614 --> 00:08:45.564
can come in, they calm down, you do
some jokes and some movement and some

00:08:45.564 --> 00:08:50.844
action, and then you kind of just yeah,
facilitate that that things can happen.

00:08:51.685 --> 00:08:59.964
And that can be very like social emotional
goals, but it can also be math or yeah.

00:08:59.964 --> 00:09:03.055
Whatever is at that
moment important for that.

00:09:03.144 --> 00:09:03.204
So,

00:09:03.444 --> 00:09:03.714
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:09:03.714 --> 00:09:06.339
You will go to the academic
stuff as well if people Yeah.

00:09:06.414 --> 00:09:06.624
Yeah.

00:09:06.624 --> 00:09:11.814
So talk to us about someone coming in w
with difficulties with maths h how, give

00:09:11.814 --> 00:09:13.584
us some ideas about how you approach this.

00:09:13.674 --> 00:09:13.914
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:09:14.274 --> 00:09:17.764
So I, I have this autistic boy that's
been coming for a couple of years.

00:09:18.214 --> 00:09:18.304
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:09:18.304 --> 00:09:21.544
Katja Mehlhorn: And we've worked on all
kind of things, but recently math is a

00:09:21.544 --> 00:09:26.314
thing because they have to, well do math
in school and he decided he's bad at it.

00:09:26.404 --> 00:09:31.924
So nothing with numbers was like even
allowed, but he loves Formula One.

00:09:32.464 --> 00:09:35.944
So as part of his lessons
always we do racing.

00:09:35.944 --> 00:09:39.184
So then he decides which race car, the
horses, and then we race around and

00:09:39.184 --> 00:09:40.834
then the horse becomes another race car.

00:09:41.434 --> 00:09:44.434
So at some point we added, oh, does
this race car also have a number?

00:09:44.464 --> 00:09:48.484
So just kind of throwing in numbers
for fun without doing anything

00:09:48.484 --> 00:09:53.464
for it or with it at some point
we actually like, took the time.

00:09:53.464 --> 00:09:55.655
It took, what do you
call it, with stopwatch?

00:09:56.375 --> 00:09:56.824
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yes.

00:09:56.824 --> 00:09:57.079
Yeah, yeah.

00:09:57.084 --> 00:09:57.605
Timed it.

00:09:57.844 --> 00:09:58.235
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:09:58.420 --> 00:10:01.865
We, we timed it and then we wrote
on a whiteboard, the, the times.

00:10:02.525 --> 00:10:06.155
And then he even actually also wanted to
write a time, and then he write a to wrote

00:10:06.155 --> 00:10:07.834
a total bogus time, but it doesn't matter.

00:10:07.834 --> 00:10:11.765
He, he wrote a time and he got
really excited by, Hey, that that's

00:10:11.765 --> 00:10:16.564
numbers and that has something so,
so slowly kind of, we, we dropped the

00:10:16.564 --> 00:10:19.564
numbers in a way that are not scary.

00:10:19.564 --> 00:10:24.064
You don't have to do anything with them,
which just kind of introduced in Yeah.

00:10:24.064 --> 00:10:26.680
Rupert Isaacson: Just start a relationship
with them where the numbers are safe.

00:10:26.790 --> 00:10:27.079
Yeah.

00:10:27.155 --> 00:10:27.515
Yeah.

00:10:27.635 --> 00:10:29.735
Katja Mehlhorn: We do, did
a lot of step counting.

00:10:30.095 --> 00:10:30.185
Mm-hmm.

00:10:30.185 --> 00:10:34.295
Also like the horse trots 10 steps
and then we kind of a rule-based game.

00:10:34.355 --> 00:10:38.224
The next person can decide how many
steps and then we have to take turns

00:10:38.224 --> 00:10:43.775
and he has to like, keep track of whose
turn it is to, to say a number and then.

00:10:45.005 --> 00:10:48.455
Rupert Isaacson: I am just thinking
about a, we, we, we have a version of

00:10:48.455 --> 00:10:55.365
the, the time it takes to do something
where we'll walk the distance first.

00:10:55.365 --> 00:10:55.455
Mm-hmm.

00:10:55.695 --> 00:11:01.215
So let's say, we'll walk it out in meters
ourselves, just in steps, but we'll do

00:11:01.215 --> 00:11:08.205
it, you know, in a silly walk styley,
or we'll do it as ostriches or as ducks

00:11:08.205 --> 00:11:09.705
or just anything to make it funny.

00:11:10.545 --> 00:11:10.605
Yeah.

00:11:10.605 --> 00:11:14.715
Or in a way that as you say, now we're
all Formula One drivers or something.

00:11:14.775 --> 00:11:18.225
And then we can calculate of
course, the distance over time.

00:11:18.225 --> 00:11:19.005
It gets speed.

00:11:19.065 --> 00:11:22.545
And it's really interesting,
we've had so many kids who.

00:11:23.760 --> 00:11:25.590
Have this difficult problem with math.

00:11:25.680 --> 00:11:30.290
I was one of those kids, of course who
then fall into doing these types of

00:11:30.290 --> 00:11:34.100
experiments with numbers really easily,
because as far as they're concerned,

00:11:34.100 --> 00:11:35.390
this is no longer a math lesson.

00:11:35.390 --> 00:11:35.975
This is just mm-hmm.

00:11:36.055 --> 00:11:39.470
Trying to find out how fast am I,
you know, let alone how fast are you.

00:11:39.470 --> 00:11:45.660
And I'm always astonished that
when people are in school numbers

00:11:45.660 --> 00:11:46.980
are not presented in this way.

00:11:47.300 --> 00:11:51.290
So many of us are made to feel unsafe
around numbers because it, it, it often

00:11:51.290 --> 00:11:57.080
goes with sarcasm and scorn and you know,
it, when I was a boy, we even got beaten.

00:11:57.500 --> 00:12:01.130
So, you know, you knew that a trip
to the whiteboard to get it wrong in

00:12:01.130 --> 00:12:05.360
front of the whole class could also
result in physical violence, you know?

00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:08.930
So, you know, naturally
we became number averse.

00:12:09.270 --> 00:12:11.490
But there's so much shame around numbers.

00:12:11.590 --> 00:12:12.610
Tell me, yeah.

00:12:13.150 --> 00:12:13.450
Okay.

00:12:13.450 --> 00:12:15.160
You make people feel safe with this.

00:12:15.280 --> 00:12:18.850
You yourself are a numbers girl because
you know, you, you've come up through the

00:12:18.850 --> 00:12:23.290
science route and I know you, you know,
so I know that you, you have a facility

00:12:23.290 --> 00:12:28.630
for numbers and something that can be
difficult, I find for people who do have

00:12:28.630 --> 00:12:32.290
a talent for numbers, is empathizing
and putting themselves in the shoes of

00:12:32.290 --> 00:12:36.280
people who struggle with this because
it comes somewhat naturally to you.

00:12:36.580 --> 00:12:41.530
What was your process in getting
over that so that you could actually

00:12:41.530 --> 00:12:45.130
empathize with someone that sees numbers
very differently to the way you do?

00:12:48.185 --> 00:12:51.190
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I, that's weird to say.

00:12:51.370 --> 00:12:52.240
Do you have a talent?

00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:57.730
But I think I, I have a talent in that
sense that I'm pretty good at or at

00:12:57.730 --> 00:13:00.610
kind of getting at where someone is at.

00:13:00.730 --> 00:13:00.820
Mm-hmm.

00:13:00.850 --> 00:13:05.230
I'm pretty good at imagining how this,
if you can't do things, there's enough

00:13:05.230 --> 00:13:06.700
things I've, I've struggled with.

00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:12.010
So I, I, I don't remember that I
went through that phase actually.

00:13:12.760 --> 00:13:13.120
So that's

00:13:13.485 --> 00:13:13.645
Rupert Isaacson: interesting.

00:13:13.795 --> 00:13:14.085
Yeah.

00:13:14.305 --> 00:13:15.970
Did you, what, what did you struggle with?

00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:21.040
Because I think, I think it needs
as a super brain, so I'm like, what,

00:13:21.040 --> 00:13:24.190
what, what could catch a probab
possibly struggle with academically?

00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.330
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, ac academically,
well, well actually like higher

00:13:27.330 --> 00:13:28.980
math, definitely I did struggle with.

00:13:29.435 --> 00:13:29.725
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:13:30.065 --> 00:13:33.815
Katja Mehlhorn: But I, I struggle a lot
with like physical things like horse

00:13:33.815 --> 00:13:36.485
riding, dancing, those, those things.

00:13:36.515 --> 00:13:39.935
I always feel like, oh, some
people can do it so easy and

00:13:39.935 --> 00:13:41.855
it takes me so much effort to

00:13:43.115 --> 00:13:45.245
Rupert Isaacson: what, what do you
find that's really interesting to me.

00:13:45.345 --> 00:13:48.225
What do you find is your
biggest physical challenge?

00:13:48.225 --> 00:13:51.225
'cause again, knowing you, I know
you as a bit of an athlete, I mean,

00:13:51.225 --> 00:13:53.535
you are, you're always running
around, you're in great shape.

00:13:53.535 --> 00:13:54.675
We've worked together with horses.

00:13:54.885 --> 00:13:57.165
I haven't observed you having
any particular difficulty.

00:13:57.375 --> 00:14:00.825
What do you, what do you
see as your difficulty?

00:14:01.155 --> 00:14:03.975
Do you feel, and do you feel that's
actually more something mental?

00:14:03.975 --> 00:14:05.955
Or is that actually something question?

00:14:06.795 --> 00:14:08.055
Katja Mehlhorn: I think,
I think rhythm, like.

00:14:08.880 --> 00:14:13.980
S in high school dancing class was, was
hell because I just couldn't let myself

00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:17.250
be let, but I also couldn't lead myself.

00:14:17.250 --> 00:14:17.460
So,

00:14:20.460 --> 00:14:24.690
But also to like, have tension
in the right part of the body

00:14:24.690 --> 00:14:27.630
and relaxation in the right
part, which you need for writing.

00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:31.350
Then like, oh no, your back
moves at the wrong point.

00:14:31.350 --> 00:14:33.420
And I just can't, like,
how do people do it?

00:14:33.420 --> 00:14:34.680
I can't figure out that.

00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:35.100
Yeah.

00:14:35.160 --> 00:14:38.100
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you then,
okay, so do you struggle with this

00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:40.980
concept of tension and relaxation?

00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:42.420
Relaxation and tension?

00:14:42.630 --> 00:14:47.040
Like, you know, being relaxed enough
that you can move fluidly, but

00:14:47.040 --> 00:14:48.750
having enough tension that you don't

00:14:49.710 --> 00:14:52.230
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I seem to
relax in the wrong body parts and

00:14:52.230 --> 00:14:53.490
keep tension in the wrong body.

00:14:55.710 --> 00:14:55.760
I don't know.

00:14:56.085 --> 00:15:00.060
Rupert Isaacson: Do, and then do you, do
you encounter, 'cause you, you, your, your

00:15:00.090 --> 00:15:02.280
program is both ridden and on the ground.

00:15:02.280 --> 00:15:02.290
Mm-hmm.

00:15:02.310 --> 00:15:02.550
Right?

00:15:02.850 --> 00:15:06.690
So how do you help
people when you see them?

00:15:07.380 --> 00:15:13.080
Encountering the same problems
in the ridden as you might have,

00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.450
what's your go-to for helping them?

00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:17.760
Katja Mehlhorn: That that's
actually inter interesting.

00:15:17.760 --> 00:15:20.880
'cause I had a discussion with a
couple of my more advanced students

00:15:20.880 --> 00:15:23.910
and they said, oh, but you are so
great at explaining those things.

00:15:23.970 --> 00:15:25.170
And I thought like, wait, really?

00:15:25.230 --> 00:15:28.290
But then I thought, yeah, I really
had to go through all the steps myself

00:15:28.290 --> 00:15:31.680
to figure out exactly which muscle
and in what way does it have to move.

00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:32.220
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:15:32.790 --> 00:15:35.460
Katja Mehlhorn: Compared to a very
talented rider who just says, sit

00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:37.920
straight and move with the horse.

00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:39.620
And I'm like I don't know how to do that.

00:15:39.920 --> 00:15:40.340
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.

00:15:40.340 --> 00:15:42.800
So if you, when you have to break
it, can you give us an example of

00:15:42.800 --> 00:15:44.150
how you break this down for someone?

00:15:44.150 --> 00:15:47.120
I think a lot of people listening
and watching will go, yeah,

00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:48.680
actually I have that problem too.

00:15:49.100 --> 00:15:53.780
And I would imagine that a number
of people that you think Katia are

00:15:53.780 --> 00:15:57.020
very good writers, probably struggle
with this more than they let on.

00:15:57.410 --> 00:15:59.570
So yeah, tell us how you break it down.

00:16:00.110 --> 00:16:04.640
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, exercise I really
like is the, I don't know, what do they

00:16:04.640 --> 00:16:06.770
call those Russian dolls that are on the

00:16:06.770 --> 00:16:07.670
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

00:16:08.180 --> 00:16:08.660
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:10.010
Kind of a balancing

00:16:10.110 --> 00:16:10.380
Rupert Isaacson: oh.

00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:13.510
For us, the Russian dolls
are the ones that you open

00:16:13.510 --> 00:16:14.410
and, and it's like, yeah, no,

00:16:14.410 --> 00:16:16.930
Katja Mehlhorn: they're, they're the
other ones that have like a heavy s

00:16:17.410 --> 00:16:17.500
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:18.460
You can't push them over.

00:16:18.460 --> 00:16:19.420
They have a Yeah, okay.

00:16:19.420 --> 00:16:19.975
A weight on the bottom.

00:16:19.975 --> 00:16:20.215
Yeah.

00:16:20.215 --> 00:16:20.495
Yeah.

00:16:20.500 --> 00:16:23.050
Katja Mehlhorn: So, so put someone
on the horse and say, okay, lean

00:16:23.050 --> 00:16:25.990
forward a bit till you feel that
you would drop on your nose.

00:16:25.990 --> 00:16:27.790
If I magic away the horse.

00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:30.760
And that's like, great for kids
and like, oh, you can do magic.

00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:33.760
So always add some fun and
not make it too serious.

00:16:33.760 --> 00:16:34.030
Okay.

00:16:34.030 --> 00:16:37.450
Now lean backward a bit till you
feel you would land on your ass.

00:16:37.450 --> 00:16:40.180
If I match you away the horse
and then kind of slowly swing

00:16:40.180 --> 00:16:41.650
and, and, and find the middle.

00:16:42.250 --> 00:16:45.100
'cause then you know you are
in, in balance compared to

00:16:45.100 --> 00:16:47.560
just sit straight or sit in.

00:16:47.560 --> 00:16:47.650
Did

00:16:47.650 --> 00:16:49.690
Rupert Isaacson: you do that
with the horse first, not moving?

00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:51.460
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes, definitely.

00:16:51.520 --> 00:16:53.440
And sometimes even on the ground first.

00:16:53.470 --> 00:16:53.500
Okay.

00:16:54.550 --> 00:16:56.710
Rupert Isaacson: So let's say
you start on the ground, then

00:16:56.710 --> 00:16:58.510
you'd go to a non-moving horse.

00:16:59.110 --> 00:17:01.030
How do you help them once
the horse starts moving?

00:17:01.030 --> 00:17:06.520
Because that, that brings
in other variables, right?

00:17:07.270 --> 00:17:08.710
Like side to side, et cetera.

00:17:09.460 --> 00:17:09.790
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:17:09.820 --> 00:17:10.000
Yeah.

00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:13.240
So we, we also do it side to side,
indeed, and then first at the walk,

00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:16.730
and I lead the horse around and
sometimes that don't close their eyes.

00:17:16.730 --> 00:17:18.650
That really helps to feel also

00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:24.079
Rupert Isaacson: then when
it comes to, okay, so I could

00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.540
see exploring the boundaries.

00:17:26.540 --> 00:17:26.599
Yeah.

00:17:26.930 --> 00:17:27.980
What's the middle point?

00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:29.810
Closing your eyes for feel.

00:17:29.840 --> 00:17:30.620
This is very good.

00:17:30.770 --> 00:17:32.360
Also starting not on the horse.

00:17:32.510 --> 00:17:35.120
I'm a great believer, as you
know, in starting everything

00:17:35.120 --> 00:17:36.320
we're gonna do with a pony.

00:17:36.380 --> 00:17:37.430
Not with a pony.

00:17:37.430 --> 00:17:37.490
Yeah.

00:17:37.700 --> 00:17:41.360
So that we can have a muscle
memory to bring to the pony.

00:17:41.750 --> 00:17:44.000
Only took me 500 years
to work that one out.

00:17:44.450 --> 00:17:45.710
But Okay.

00:17:45.770 --> 00:17:51.260
Then once they're up there and you
want to then develop them, how have

00:17:51.260 --> 00:17:52.730
you, let's start with you yourself.

00:17:52.730 --> 00:17:54.680
How did you develop yourself?

00:17:55.370 --> 00:17:59.420
Beyond that point, and then how
do you show them how to do that?

00:18:00.260 --> 00:18:00.440
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:06.380
The what's always really useful
too, I think is practicing in like

00:18:06.590 --> 00:18:08.360
sitting throughout or standing.

00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:08.990
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:18:09.230 --> 00:18:12.230
Katja Mehlhorn: Or for example,
not just to, how do you call it?

00:18:12.230 --> 00:18:12.710
Up down?

00:18:12.710 --> 00:18:13.700
No, you don't call it like

00:18:13.760 --> 00:18:14.990
Rupert Isaacson: hosting or rising.

00:18:14.995 --> 00:18:15.185
Yeah,

00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:15.980
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah, yeah.

00:18:16.130 --> 00:18:17.600
Rupert Isaacson: Hosting for the
Americans, rising for the Brits.

00:18:17.630 --> 00:18:17.930
Yes.

00:18:18.650 --> 00:18:20.060
Katja Mehlhorn: So, but then
do it in another rhythm.

00:18:20.060 --> 00:18:25.010
So rise for two, sit for one, or rise
for four, sit for four, rise for eight.

00:18:25.010 --> 00:18:25.670
Sit for eight.

00:18:25.670 --> 00:18:28.040
You can directly make a game
of that again with with the

00:18:28.040 --> 00:18:29.720
kids who are number challenged.

00:18:31.129 --> 00:18:32.389
Rupert Isaacson: That was
gonna be my, my question.

00:18:32.389 --> 00:18:37.520
If you combine numbers with balance like
that, what's the result for the brain?

00:18:38.750 --> 00:18:42.680
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, hopefully you
get learning because, because that,

00:18:42.770 --> 00:18:45.050
Rupert Isaacson: that sounds to me
like vestibular system activation,

00:18:45.139 --> 00:18:45.410
right?

00:18:45.410 --> 00:18:45.420
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,

00:18:45.800 --> 00:18:46.220
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:18:46.490 --> 00:18:51.440
And again, for those listeners
who dunno what the vestibular

00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:52.340
system is, don't worry.

00:18:52.620 --> 00:18:56.280
It's those three little bones in
your inner ear, which act like a

00:18:56.280 --> 00:19:00.540
sort of spirit level to, to make
sure you don't lose your balance.

00:19:00.900 --> 00:19:06.350
Apparently when that gets activated
it puts our bodies on high alert

00:19:06.500 --> 00:19:08.450
because we obviously don't wanna fall.

00:19:08.780 --> 00:19:11.240
So it seems to be connected
with long-term learning.

00:19:11.600 --> 00:19:12.980
And it is very interesting to me.

00:19:13.030 --> 00:19:18.130
The two languages that I, I speak
French, I, as you know, my German is by

00:19:18.130 --> 00:19:20.380
no means perfect, but it's functional.

00:19:20.660 --> 00:19:22.850
And both of those I learned
on the back of a horse.

00:19:23.645 --> 00:19:24.905
Rather than in a classroom.

00:19:25.115 --> 00:19:29.705
And I would posit that it, it was because
of the vestibular system activation.

00:19:30.005 --> 00:19:33.635
That vocabulary tends to stay
in my head if it's given to me.

00:19:33.875 --> 00:19:37.115
In that, and we have this really
good teacher called Cade Lang, who

00:19:37.115 --> 00:19:41.375
does movement method in Colorado, who
does a lot of his math while making

00:19:41.375 --> 00:19:45.695
kids just balance along a curb of a
street or a curb of the parking lot.

00:19:45.875 --> 00:19:48.455
And he says this also, you
know, gets these things going.

00:19:48.785 --> 00:19:53.435
When you, when you, when these kids then
after playing these numbers games, go

00:19:53.435 --> 00:19:58.115
back to school, do you get any feedback
from them, the parents or the teachers?

00:19:58.115 --> 00:19:58.175
C

00:19:58.505 --> 00:19:59.045
Katja Mehlhorn: certainly.

00:19:59.045 --> 00:20:04.595
So the, I think the, the goal that I have
is not to actually teach them the numbers,

00:20:04.595 --> 00:20:08.405
because I can't do that in one and a half
hours a week or even every two weeks.

00:20:09.005 --> 00:20:11.495
But to kind of get them,
I'm scared of the numbers.

00:20:12.185 --> 00:20:12.245
Yeah.

00:20:12.245 --> 00:20:14.195
So they there to do it in school again.

00:20:14.750 --> 00:20:18.110
Actually that boy, at some point,
the mom texted me very excitedly.

00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:20.120
He's doing sums by himself.

00:20:20.120 --> 00:20:22.220
He's just writing down
sums and doing them.

00:20:22.730 --> 00:20:25.580
And now he's actually totally
into multiplication table.

00:20:25.580 --> 00:20:27.740
So every time he comes, now
we have to teach the horse

00:20:27.740 --> 00:20:29.270
a new multiplication table.

00:20:29.540 --> 00:20:31.220
We are getting very smart horses this way.

00:20:31.220 --> 00:20:31.340
Okay.

00:20:32.360 --> 00:20:32.750
Yeah.

00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:34.220
Rupert Isaacson: Your
horses must be, yeah.

00:20:34.220 --> 00:20:36.910
Are they, are they they're probably
gonna graduate from your program and go

00:20:36.910 --> 00:20:38.500
get jobs at the university themselves?

00:20:38.590 --> 00:20:39.610
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,
they're literate for sure.

00:20:39.610 --> 00:20:39.730
Yeah.

00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:44.860
Rupert Isaacson: The, these kinds of
kids that you're talking about here

00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:50.110
with anxiety, learning difficulties,
social emotional, these of course

00:20:50.110 --> 00:20:52.840
are kids that can, for the most
part, follow top down instruction.

00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:58.510
Talk to us about how you approach somebody
with more classic autism, particularly

00:20:58.510 --> 00:21:03.250
in the younger years where top down
instruction is really not a possibility.

00:21:03.520 --> 00:21:04.540
What's your way in there?

00:21:04.540 --> 00:21:05.500
How do you, how do you go?

00:21:06.410 --> 00:21:06.950
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, I.

00:21:07.985 --> 00:21:12.425
Mainly I have kids that are a little
higher on the, on the functioning level.

00:21:12.425 --> 00:21:15.605
I don't have any nonverbal, at
least haven't had in a while.

00:21:16.125 --> 00:21:19.785
But, but even then, like the boy I'm
talking about now, he's, you, you

00:21:19.785 --> 00:21:21.765
cannot have a normal conversation.

00:21:21.825 --> 00:21:24.645
Normal whatever's normal, but
like we are having now, you,

00:21:24.645 --> 00:21:25.425
you couldn't have with him.

00:21:25.425 --> 00:21:25.575
Mm-hmm.

00:21:26.175 --> 00:21:32.085
So it's, it's a lot true, true game and
to, like me and the volunteers talking

00:21:32.085 --> 00:21:37.725
about something with him, hearing it
and then trying to involve him and if he

00:21:37.725 --> 00:21:41.985
doesn't wanna be involved, just hoping
that he will soak it up in some way.

00:21:42.225 --> 00:21:42.525
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:21:42.525 --> 00:21:45.645
Would you, would you say lead him
through the game on the horse,

00:21:45.645 --> 00:21:51.015
perhaps without asking him up first
to understand True with a capital U?

00:21:51.195 --> 00:21:51.795
Katja Mehlhorn: Definitely.

00:21:51.795 --> 00:21:52.245
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:21:52.335 --> 00:21:52.515
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,

00:21:52.575 --> 00:21:52.845
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:21:52.845 --> 00:21:56.645
One of the things which you know, I
know some people listening might say,

00:21:56.645 --> 00:21:58.325
well, you know, how, how can that help?

00:21:58.955 --> 00:22:01.895
But of course what we're talking
about here is neuroplasticity, right?

00:22:01.895 --> 00:22:02.255
That.

00:22:02.870 --> 00:22:06.290
Remem remembering that all movement,
particularly if the body has

00:22:06.290 --> 00:22:10.160
to solve problems like balance
while the movement is going on.

00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:12.140
And that of course is
gonna happen on a horse.

00:22:12.350 --> 00:22:19.040
This causes the brain to produce that
protein, BDNF, which creates neurons.

00:22:19.460 --> 00:22:25.100
So yes, you're going to see progress
because you're just creating more neurons.

00:22:25.540 --> 00:22:28.600
And I wish this were
understood better at schools.

00:22:29.050 --> 00:22:33.910
When we are doing say, movement method
in schools, one of the hardest things to

00:22:34.360 --> 00:22:40.030
get people to get their heads around is
not separating movement from learning.

00:22:40.330 --> 00:22:40.390
Yeah.

00:22:40.390 --> 00:22:45.040
Not saying, if you do this boring thing
you don't want to do, I will reward you.

00:22:45.040 --> 00:22:45.220
Then you're

00:22:45.220 --> 00:22:45.550
Katja Mehlhorn: play.

00:22:45.550 --> 00:22:45.850
Yeah.

00:22:46.065 --> 00:22:46.265
Yeah.

00:22:46.630 --> 00:22:47.800
Rupert Isaacson: Just go and play.

00:22:47.950 --> 00:22:51.970
Have the conversation and
integrate that thing into the play.

00:22:52.420 --> 00:22:53.800
And that's why sport is so good.

00:22:53.850 --> 00:22:53.940
And.

00:22:55.515 --> 00:23:00.645
The neuroplasticity will begin to
happen and that person will have a very

00:23:00.645 --> 00:23:05.085
different brain in six weeks to the
brain that came through the door simply

00:23:05.085 --> 00:23:07.545
because of that neuroplasticity process.

00:23:07.545 --> 00:23:13.365
And this, I feel, isn't taught enough
in the equine assisted world, really,

00:23:13.425 --> 00:23:16.725
that what is our goal here, you know?

00:23:17.095 --> 00:23:20.695
And for me the goal, I guess as an
autism day is always neuroplasticity.

00:23:20.695 --> 00:23:20.785
Mm-hmm.

00:23:21.080 --> 00:23:24.115
But it has to be surely also
for mental, emotional stuff.

00:23:24.115 --> 00:23:24.325
Right.

00:23:24.325 --> 00:23:27.265
Because you don't wanna
be in a static state.

00:23:27.685 --> 00:23:27.985
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:23:28.255 --> 00:23:28.705
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:23:28.765 --> 00:23:34.555
You want to develop on you, you understand
this neuroplasticity thing Well,

00:23:34.585 --> 00:23:39.475
can you give us a bunch of examples?

00:23:39.475 --> 00:23:44.245
I think it'd be really useful for
people to have practical examples of a

00:23:44.245 --> 00:23:47.845
number of things that you would do at
Horse Kids Corning, and specifically

00:23:47.845 --> 00:23:50.215
kind of aimed at this neuroplasticity.

00:23:52.285 --> 00:23:55.495
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I mean, I think
it, it comes in, in all the time.

00:23:55.495 --> 00:23:59.905
I, one of the important things, I, I
think that's, you can't underestimate

00:23:59.905 --> 00:24:03.475
importance is safety, that you feel
safe because the, the brain can't learn

00:24:03.475 --> 00:24:07.465
if it doesn't feel safe, because then
it's just in the wrong kind of state

00:24:08.455 --> 00:24:11.785
and, and, and movement, which is fun.

00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:15.985
It, it activates the brain, but it
also again helps to, to feel safe

00:24:16.255 --> 00:24:18.715
unless you run away or fight, I guess.

00:24:18.715 --> 00:24:19.435
So, yeah.

00:24:20.665 --> 00:24:25.975
So I think it's, it's a bit part of,
of everything, but I was just like

00:24:25.975 --> 00:24:30.175
triggered by something you said,
like you let them go through the game

00:24:30.175 --> 00:24:32.875
without asking them to understand it.

00:24:32.935 --> 00:24:33.655
And I think that's really

00:24:34.040 --> 00:24:34.160
Rupert Isaacson: absolute.

00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:34.640
Yeah, yeah.

00:24:34.670 --> 00:24:34.960
Yeah.

00:24:35.155 --> 00:24:38.575
Katja Mehlhorn: That's really important
that you don't put pressure on there

00:24:38.575 --> 00:24:42.955
or ask their attention because then
again, there's this danger of someone's

00:24:42.955 --> 00:24:46.165
asking something from me and then,
then the learning is not happening.

00:24:46.195 --> 00:24:46.225
E

00:24:46.855 --> 00:24:47.845
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

00:24:47.900 --> 00:24:51.020
I find this even with myself,
like, if you want me to understand

00:24:51.020 --> 00:24:55.820
something new, you have to give me a
bit of time to just get used to it.

00:24:56.340 --> 00:24:58.410
Get used to the fact that
it's happening around me.

00:24:58.800 --> 00:25:03.990
So if I take that to someone with, you
know, massive anxiety, or I take that to

00:25:03.990 --> 00:25:08.550
somebody with autism and the anxiety that
goes with autism and feeling confused in

00:25:08.550 --> 00:25:13.230
the world, then this thing of you asking
for feedback, asking for eye contact,

00:25:13.230 --> 00:25:21.360
asking for attention, constantly wanting
them to say or do something, ends up being

00:25:21.360 --> 00:25:23.130
interpreted by the brain as a threat.

00:25:23.165 --> 00:25:23.585
Mm-hmm.

00:25:23.845 --> 00:25:24.065
And

00:25:24.065 --> 00:25:28.020
as we know, that makes the brain
tell the body to produce cortisol,

00:25:28.020 --> 00:25:29.880
which actually kills brain cells.

00:25:30.270 --> 00:25:34.890
But it's so natural, of course, in a
human to want to get that feedback.

00:25:35.100 --> 00:25:36.120
How do you.

00:25:38.445 --> 00:25:39.765
Discipline yourself.

00:25:39.795 --> 00:25:43.005
It, it took me a while
to discipline myself.

00:25:43.035 --> 00:25:46.875
How do you discipline yourself
to not ask for that feedback?

00:25:47.085 --> 00:25:49.425
To wait for that feedback to come?

00:25:50.475 --> 00:25:53.745
Katja Mehlhorn: Usually you get punished
because I, I mean, I still do it all

00:25:53.745 --> 00:25:57.225
the time, but then you see the ice
place over and you're like, oh, damn.

00:25:57.255 --> 00:25:59.805
Yeah, that was, I shouldn't have asked.

00:25:59.805 --> 00:26:01.365
But then you make a joke of it, or,

00:26:01.620 --> 00:26:01.910
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:26:03.225 --> 00:26:03.285
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:26:04.095 --> 00:26:06.675
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's
an interesting skill though.

00:26:06.705 --> 00:26:10.395
How long do you think it's taken
you to acquire that skill of having

00:26:10.395 --> 00:26:14.955
that light approach where you are
not asking for feedback so much?

00:26:16.995 --> 00:26:17.385
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:26:17.385 --> 00:26:19.035
I don't, I'm, I'm still learning.

00:26:19.035 --> 00:26:19.460
I don't know.

00:26:19.460 --> 00:26:19.860
Mm-hmm.

00:26:21.260 --> 00:26:27.015
I am, I've been, I got licensed as
path instructor in 2012, so, mm-hmm.

00:26:28.100 --> 00:26:30.410
And yeah, hopefully we are
getting better every day.

00:26:30.410 --> 00:26:33.320
I don't think you are ever done
with learning that, and then you

00:26:33.320 --> 00:26:37.310
have another kid and you might
need to do it more or less.

00:26:37.310 --> 00:26:41.840
I think the the thing you really
need to do is listen to the kid

00:26:41.930 --> 00:26:45.260
and as you always say, follow the
kid and, and, and see what happens.

00:26:45.260 --> 00:26:48.315
I mean, you just try
something and sometimes works.

00:26:48.655 --> 00:26:49.235
How do we listen to a kid?

00:26:49.415 --> 00:26:50.450
But sometimes it doesn't.

00:26:50.600 --> 00:26:50.900
Yeah.

00:26:51.140 --> 00:26:53.120
Rupert Isaacson: How do we, how
do we listen to a kid who's either

00:26:53.120 --> 00:26:59.030
not talking nonverbal or not
wanting to express themselves?

00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:00.920
Talk to us about that kind of listening.

00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:02.180
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:27:02.180 --> 00:27:05.510
Well, it's great we have the horses
because they, they listen for us.

00:27:05.600 --> 00:27:08.960
So often you can see in directions
of the horse if there is tension in

00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:10.970
a kit if you can't see it yourself.

00:27:11.420 --> 00:27:11.510
Mm-hmm.

00:27:11.900 --> 00:27:14.450
So there's all kind of signals, horses.

00:27:15.095 --> 00:27:18.035
Kind of give, they're
called calming signals.

00:27:18.035 --> 00:27:19.410
There's a Dutch person, you know,

00:27:21.510 --> 00:27:23.010
Rupert Isaacson: no talk, talk,
talk to me about this person.

00:27:23.135 --> 00:27:26.095
Katja Mehlhorn: She has she did
actually great research mm-hmm.

00:27:26.335 --> 00:27:34.165
On hours and hours of videos where she
watched horses and determined signals that

00:27:34.195 --> 00:27:39.355
more horses do that show that they are
either, so that they're basically changing

00:27:39.355 --> 00:27:41.755
between sympa and parasympathetic state.

00:27:41.755 --> 00:27:46.855
So between stress and relaxation and
those are the signals that we also

00:27:46.855 --> 00:27:50.965
know, for example, in the Masterson
method, they also know a lot of those.

00:27:50.965 --> 00:27:58.015
So the blink of the eye or chewing
or licking, lowering your head.

00:27:58.855 --> 00:28:03.715
The also more, more stress signals
like the eyes getting very big or

00:28:03.715 --> 00:28:08.575
horses kind of fumbling on their
body to kind of get attention out.

00:28:09.175 --> 00:28:13.615
But yeah, tho those signals, if you, if
you, the more you to learn to, to, to, to

00:28:13.615 --> 00:28:18.835
read your horses, the more you kind of see
from the horse's reaction also on what's

00:28:18.835 --> 00:28:20.455
happening with the, with the client.

00:28:20.665 --> 00:28:23.005
Rupert Isaacson: Give us the
name of this lady, Rachel Rael.

00:28:23.010 --> 00:28:23.350
Rashelle.

00:28:24.020 --> 00:28:24.310
Katja Mehlhorn: Rema.

00:28:25.765 --> 00:28:26.485
Rupert Isaacson: Ima, how do I spell that?

00:28:26.485 --> 00:28:26.545
R

00:28:28.015 --> 00:28:32.515
Katja Mehlhorn: double A-I-S-M-A-I think.

00:28:33.955 --> 00:28:35.965
Rupert Isaacson: R-A-A-I-S-M-A.

00:28:35.965 --> 00:28:36.775
I'm gonna go look up.

00:28:36.775 --> 00:28:37.885
Look her up, Rachel.

00:28:38.395 --> 00:28:38.785
Well, yeah.

00:28:38.815 --> 00:28:41.305
'cause this is an interesting
thing with the equine assisted

00:28:41.425 --> 00:28:47.065
world, is that it, it, you know,
it's such a diverse world, right?

00:28:47.065 --> 00:28:50.125
From the path approach where these
sort of leading kids around through

00:28:50.125 --> 00:28:53.305
activities to horse boy, where we're

00:28:54.565 --> 00:28:55.075
Katja Mehlhorn: looking

00:28:55.075 --> 00:28:58.405
Rupert Isaacson: for neuroplasticity with
a child in front of us in the saddle and

00:28:58.405 --> 00:29:05.035
oxytocin to, you know, the e gala or other
types of, you know, on the ground models.

00:29:05.345 --> 00:29:06.035
They're all.

00:29:06.470 --> 00:29:11.090
Very much based on needing
the horse to guide us.

00:29:11.390 --> 00:29:11.540
Mm-hmm.

00:29:12.050 --> 00:29:13.910
Or we kind of can't do the thing.

00:29:14.340 --> 00:29:19.620
And so I'm often quite surprised when
one sees, for example, grumpy horses

00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:28.930
in a program or horses that are quite
obviously not doing well physically that

00:29:28.930 --> 00:29:34.330
this isn't addressed more so that kind
of, because I think what you're talking

00:29:34.330 --> 00:29:40.900
about, whether it's looking at this
Rachel Rema ladies work or say Masterson's

00:29:40.900 --> 00:29:42.280
work, which is also really good.

00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:49.270
That's more about learning how
to interpret and help our horse.

00:29:49.360 --> 00:29:54.190
Of course, by the time we are working
with a vulnerable human with a horse.

00:29:55.150 --> 00:30:00.520
We can't really do that well unless the
horse is at a state of wellbeing mm-hmm.

00:30:01.085 --> 00:30:03.640
That, you know, it can then
transfer that wellbeing.

00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:03.910
Right.

00:30:03.940 --> 00:30:05.230
You know, to that person.

00:30:05.670 --> 00:30:06.450
So

00:30:10.170 --> 00:30:14.070
when we are looking for those signals
from a horse in a session, we are

00:30:14.070 --> 00:30:19.950
hoping that the baseline of the
horse is, is now one of wellbeing.

00:30:20.490 --> 00:30:20.760
Yeah.

00:30:20.850 --> 00:30:23.430
Which, so you've got your herd of seven.

00:30:24.150 --> 00:30:25.560
Talk us through this.

00:30:26.310 --> 00:30:28.920
How do you ensure your horse's wellbeing?

00:30:29.580 --> 00:30:32.370
I'm, I'm really, I'm every,
'cause I, everyone's got their own

00:30:32.370 --> 00:30:34.380
approaches for this and it's, it's.

00:30:34.845 --> 00:30:37.335
It should be obviously
the main conversation.

00:30:37.935 --> 00:30:38.025
Yes.

00:30:38.025 --> 00:30:40.125
Because these are our
biggest colleagues, right?

00:30:40.215 --> 00:30:40.575
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.

00:30:40.700 --> 00:30:43.995
And and I think that, yeah, you can't
underestimate how important that is

00:30:43.995 --> 00:30:47.565
because I mean, yes, I have to fight for
the kids who come to me, but they have

00:30:47.565 --> 00:30:49.035
also other people who fight for them.

00:30:49.035 --> 00:30:51.825
My horses, I'm the, I'm the
only advocate they have, so I

00:30:51.825 --> 00:30:52.600
have to make sure and Right.

00:30:52.665 --> 00:30:52.755
And

00:30:52.755 --> 00:30:55.695
Rupert Isaacson: the horses can't do
it unless you are advocating for them.

00:30:55.695 --> 00:30:56.505
So, yeah.

00:30:56.505 --> 00:30:59.775
So what's your, what's, talk us through
your sort of general horse wellness.

00:30:59.775 --> 00:30:59.835
Yeah,

00:30:59.960 --> 00:31:03.985
Katja Mehlhorn: so, so they, they live
in a herd outside, but we also have the

00:31:03.985 --> 00:31:07.795
luck to have an indoor arena, at least
an old shed that's an indoor arena.

00:31:07.975 --> 00:31:11.155
And they, that's their
walk in shelter as well.

00:31:11.525 --> 00:31:11.555
Okay.

00:31:12.125 --> 00:31:14.915
Unless we actually use it for
writing, but then we can even split

00:31:14.915 --> 00:31:17.975
it in a way that they still have
part of it for, for themselves.

00:31:18.935 --> 00:31:19.325
Yeah.

00:31:19.385 --> 00:31:22.515
They, they go out in the, in
the field on the grass, but it's

00:31:22.515 --> 00:31:25.395
Dutch very rich McDonald's grass.

00:31:25.395 --> 00:31:27.885
So unfortunately we can't
do the 24 hours a day.

00:31:27.885 --> 00:31:27.945
Yeah.

00:31:28.745 --> 00:31:32.625
We have a big hay feeder,
which is automated.

00:31:32.625 --> 00:31:32.655
Okay.

00:31:32.955 --> 00:31:38.475
So they get regular times feeding
without long breaks, but they also

00:31:38.475 --> 00:31:39.975
don't eat too much because Yeah.

00:31:40.155 --> 00:31:41.925
What's in there is the
McDonald's grass hay.

00:31:41.955 --> 00:31:42.915
Of course.

00:31:42.915 --> 00:31:42.975
Yeah.

00:31:43.025 --> 00:31:49.385
So, so that's kind of to make the, I
think the three FI feed France and forage.

00:31:49.385 --> 00:31:51.635
That's kind of the, that's
what we have in any place.

00:31:51.635 --> 00:31:51.965
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

00:31:52.205 --> 00:31:55.595
I always feel one has to add another
F in there, which is fitness.

00:31:55.805 --> 00:31:55.895
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.

00:31:56.135 --> 00:31:59.135
Rupert Isaacson: And I don't
often see this addressed enough.

00:31:59.285 --> 00:32:01.295
I was lucky 'cause I grew up in that.

00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:06.580
Eventing fox hunting world in the UK
where fitness is kind of drummed into

00:32:06.580 --> 00:32:11.090
you, and soundness meaning long, slow
trail rides, basically to make sure the

00:32:11.090 --> 00:32:12.650
horse's tendons are fit and all of that.

00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:17.930
But I didn't realize also the emotional
importance of that in horses until I

00:32:17.930 --> 00:32:20.300
started going to places that didn't do it.

00:32:20.580 --> 00:32:24.830
First in the sport world, in the
jumping world in in America where I

00:32:24.830 --> 00:32:28.760
encountered some of my first really
unhappy horses and I was like, Ooh.

00:32:28.790 --> 00:32:31.760
They don't, they don't, they
just don't do this fitness work.

00:32:32.030 --> 00:32:37.190
And I know with myself, if I
don't walk I go funny in the head.

00:32:37.540 --> 00:32:43.270
So, but it's very difficult in a, in a
program when one has, you know, clients

00:32:43.270 --> 00:32:46.270
coming in all the time, how does one
find this time for the fitness work?

00:32:46.840 --> 00:32:51.160
Or how does one integrate perhaps better
the fitness work into the sessions?

00:32:51.580 --> 00:32:52.570
Talk to us about that.

00:32:52.600 --> 00:32:54.970
'cause I know you, you actually
do keep your horses pretty fit.

00:32:54.970 --> 00:32:56.680
How, how do you, how do you manage them?

00:32:57.875 --> 00:32:58.165
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:32:58.170 --> 00:32:58.240
Yeah.

00:32:58.540 --> 00:33:02.050
So part of it is of course, that they
can, they can actually move on the track

00:33:02.050 --> 00:33:06.310
system they live on, we, we measured
and that they move about like 10 to 14

00:33:06.310 --> 00:33:08.500
kilometers a day just by themselves.

00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:11.620
But, but yeah, of course that,
that's not enough and especially the

00:33:11.620 --> 00:33:13.450
fat ponies who like to move less.

00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:20.890
So indeed, I try to sneakily in
the lessons and in the sessions,

00:33:21.280 --> 00:33:25.510
als always include something that
we are working on with the horse.

00:33:25.510 --> 00:33:30.330
So maybe walking poles I don't
know if we work on can, then the

00:33:30.330 --> 00:33:31.710
kids are gonna counter that week.

00:33:32.730 --> 00:33:35.070
And we also do a lot of
on, on mental fitness.

00:33:35.070 --> 00:33:40.410
So we do a lot of clicker training
trick training, agility things.

00:33:40.410 --> 00:33:41.000
So we have mm-hmm.

00:33:42.355 --> 00:33:43.585
It's called teeter totter.

00:33:43.585 --> 00:33:43.855
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:33:43.855 --> 00:33:45.355
Like a, a seesaw, a balance cto.

00:33:45.355 --> 00:33:45.415
Yeah.

00:33:45.535 --> 00:33:45.775
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,

00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:46.380
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:33:46.885 --> 00:33:49.285
Katja Mehlhorn: And, and on
a block they, they can go on.

00:33:49.795 --> 00:33:55.555
And and recently I've started
to, to do the stuff that you are

00:33:55.555 --> 00:33:59.575
teaching us with the classical
triage more than than I used to.

00:33:59.965 --> 00:34:00.295
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:34:00.955 --> 00:34:01.435
Katja Mehlhorn: And for

00:34:01.435 --> 00:34:04.615
Rupert Isaacson: the, for the, for any
listeners who, who hold up a crucifix

00:34:04.615 --> 00:34:09.265
at the dreaded D word dressage, of
course, for many people being synonymous

00:34:09.265 --> 00:34:13.085
with the devil we're not so much
talking about ridden dressage here.

00:34:13.085 --> 00:34:14.645
We're talking about in-hand work.

00:34:14.765 --> 00:34:17.795
And long reigning work doesn't mean
you can't do the ridden work, but

00:34:19.295 --> 00:34:22.775
without that in hand component and
the long raining component, the

00:34:22.775 --> 00:34:25.565
written work is, can be detrimental.

00:34:25.805 --> 00:34:29.285
Whereas the, I was just in, I was
just, before this podcast, I was

00:34:29.285 --> 00:34:32.735
just in the round pen with one of
my older horses and we're just going

00:34:32.735 --> 00:34:36.515
through the in hand patterns gently,
and it's such a yoga, you know?

00:34:36.515 --> 00:34:37.355
And I'm like, oh yeah.

00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:41.810
Upward dog is pattern one, shoulder in
and downward dog is counter shoulders in.

00:34:41.810 --> 00:34:44.300
And you know, when one thinks
about it in those terms, of

00:34:44.300 --> 00:34:45.530
course it makes perfect sense.

00:34:45.710 --> 00:34:49.280
And if one approaches it in that
way, it, it makes sense for a horse.

00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:53.270
But if one approaches it in a kind
of performance based way, well

00:34:53.300 --> 00:34:55.340
then the stresses are obvious.

00:34:55.730 --> 00:35:01.280
The, so as you've been exploring this
classical stuff, can you talk to us

00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:06.440
about how you do it and what the, what
effects have you seen with your horses?

00:35:07.520 --> 00:35:12.470
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so it, I, I
must admit it was kind of a difficult

00:35:12.500 --> 00:35:17.360
path for me because I'm like the
long reins in the forest rider.

00:35:17.420 --> 00:35:19.250
Like, just have fun with the horses.

00:35:19.250 --> 00:35:19.310
Yeah.

00:35:19.310 --> 00:35:20.480
And filter soft stuff.

00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:21.200
It's too difficult.

00:35:21.200 --> 00:35:23.210
I can't do it anyway
with my challenge body.

00:35:23.210 --> 00:35:25.220
That was kind of my idea.

00:35:26.030 --> 00:35:27.500
But it has really helped.

00:35:27.560 --> 00:35:30.500
So especially by starting.

00:35:30.965 --> 00:35:35.645
Next to the horse, it really helps that
the horse can figures out the movements

00:35:35.645 --> 00:35:37.805
without you challenged human on there.

00:35:38.285 --> 00:35:38.375
Mm.

00:35:38.570 --> 00:35:41.460
And that really has helped
to improve the riding.

00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:47.250
So actually just last week I was
at a, a course that I've been on

00:35:47.250 --> 00:35:48.810
and off for a couple of years.

00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:49.560
Mm.

00:35:49.650 --> 00:35:53.880
And we worked on the Cantor and they
were like, wow, that, that goes well.

00:35:53.910 --> 00:35:55.830
Like, what did you do
to work on the Cantor?

00:35:55.830 --> 00:35:58.470
Like since last time, like,
actually I didn't at all.

00:35:59.040 --> 00:36:01.800
It's just all this enhanced
stuff I've been doing and

00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:03.570
magically the cantor got better.

00:36:03.660 --> 00:36:05.520
So what

00:36:05.520 --> 00:36:07.920
Rupert Isaacson: do you see
emotionally and mentally in

00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:09.420
the horses with Ian hand work?

00:36:10.890 --> 00:36:15.060
Katja Mehlhorn: I, because I, I know
that you have, you always say that

00:36:15.090 --> 00:36:18.180
there's horses that don't like, wanna
work with you and then through the

00:36:18.180 --> 00:36:20.730
internet work they get softer and easier.

00:36:21.270 --> 00:36:25.230
I think I'm pretty lucky in that
my horses already wanted to work.

00:36:25.690 --> 00:36:28.030
So in that sense, I don't see too much.

00:36:28.120 --> 00:36:32.170
Although the one I'm working
most with in hand work right

00:36:32.170 --> 00:36:34.180
now is my paint quarter horse.

00:36:34.180 --> 00:36:34.299
Mm-hmm.

00:36:34.330 --> 00:36:36.279
Who's kind of stuck in his ways.

00:36:36.310 --> 00:36:39.160
Like, he's like, okay, I can do those
tricks and that's what I'm doing.

00:36:39.160 --> 00:36:39.670
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:36:40.359 --> 00:36:40.900
Katja Mehlhorn: So

00:36:41.529 --> 00:36:42.069
Rupert Isaacson: description?

00:36:42.069 --> 00:36:42.400
Yes.

00:36:42.549 --> 00:36:42.940
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:36:42.940 --> 00:36:45.850
You ask something new,
he's like, ah, what now?

00:36:46.630 --> 00:36:47.200
Shut down.

00:36:47.200 --> 00:36:47.859
Ideally.

00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:50.080
So he's getting more like.

00:36:50.814 --> 00:36:54.234
Oh yeah, you're doing the counting
things and and okay, I'm on.

00:36:54.534 --> 00:36:57.204
So yeah, it has, it has helped.

00:36:57.314 --> 00:36:59.504
Rupert Isaacson: It'll be interesting
to see how that horse develops

00:36:59.504 --> 00:37:02.294
because, you know, as you know, in,
we were in Texas for a long time

00:37:02.294 --> 00:37:03.884
and we had a lot of quarter horses.

00:37:03.884 --> 00:37:08.595
And quarter horses are great in one way
in which is that, as you said, if you show

00:37:08.595 --> 00:37:12.285
them a job and they get really familiar
with that job, then they'll own that job.

00:37:12.285 --> 00:37:14.865
And it really almost doesn't
matter who you put on them.

00:37:14.865 --> 00:37:15.015
Mm-hmm.

00:37:15.375 --> 00:37:17.655
Unless it's like a really hot
barrel racing horse or something.

00:37:18.025 --> 00:37:23.665
But yeah, there's something in the
genetic that when you change the job

00:37:23.665 --> 00:37:27.745
description, which of course one has
to, from time to time, you can often

00:37:27.745 --> 00:37:32.275
get this kind of weird overreaction,
almost like, hysterical, what?

00:37:32.275 --> 00:37:36.130
I can't believe you're asking me to
move an extra two millimeters, you know?

00:37:36.565 --> 00:37:39.105
And I'm like, dude, you know,
it's only two millimeters.

00:37:39.165 --> 00:37:41.655
And then of course when
they get used to that.

00:37:42.030 --> 00:37:43.890
Then they're like, well, I've
always been doing that, you know?

00:37:44.580 --> 00:37:44.880
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,

00:37:44.970 --> 00:37:44.980
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:37:45.040 --> 00:37:47.590
And like, well then why would you
make such a fuss the other day?

00:37:47.650 --> 00:37:48.490
Well, I didn't do that.

00:37:48.910 --> 00:37:51.670
For me, the in hand work was a
real game changer that way that

00:37:51.670 --> 00:37:54.100
we saw these massive changes.

00:37:54.100 --> 00:37:57.280
And as you know, you're lucky, as
you say, 'cause you've got a pretty

00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:58.900
long term integrated herd there.

00:37:59.800 --> 00:38:02.560
We do now ourselves as well.

00:38:02.560 --> 00:38:06.340
But in the old days, we had a lot of
donation horses coming through and

00:38:06.340 --> 00:38:10.990
also donation horses that we had to
then rehab and put in other programs,

00:38:11.470 --> 00:38:17.080
and we found, yeah, I think it goes
back to this BDNF neuroplasticity

00:38:17.260 --> 00:38:18.700
protein in the brain thing.

00:38:19.090 --> 00:38:23.560
I can't prove this, but it seems that,
because as you know, in these patterns

00:38:23.560 --> 00:38:28.810
that you do with the in hand work, you
go and you go, you get the horse across,

00:38:28.810 --> 00:38:31.420
its midline all the time with its legs.

00:38:32.275 --> 00:38:35.965
And we do know from humans, like
in martial arts and yoga, if, and

00:38:35.965 --> 00:38:39.805
dance, if we cross our midlines a
lot, we get more neuroplasticity.

00:38:40.105 --> 00:38:44.395
It really does seem to change the
personality of the horse and make it

00:38:44.395 --> 00:38:47.155
just way more of a flexible thinker.

00:38:47.725 --> 00:38:52.135
And I think we've seen this now
so many times that even though I

00:38:52.135 --> 00:38:57.355
can't prove this scientifically,
just from observation, we see it.

00:38:57.835 --> 00:39:01.285
But what we've also seen, and this
is kind of what I want to talk about

00:39:01.285 --> 00:39:07.585
maybe next, is that when we get people
to do this with the horses, we get

00:39:07.585 --> 00:39:10.975
a similar flexibility in the brain.

00:39:11.005 --> 00:39:11.095
Mm-hmm.

00:39:11.335 --> 00:39:13.855
I mean, I think you just put
yourself there as an example.

00:39:13.855 --> 00:39:17.695
You know, when I first met you,
you were a little bit rigid about.

00:39:18.250 --> 00:39:21.280
What you considered acceptable and
what you considered not acceptable

00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:22.900
to do with horses and so on.

00:39:22.900 --> 00:39:25.150
And over the course of time
that I've known you, you've

00:39:25.150 --> 00:39:26.620
become more and more flexible.

00:39:27.070 --> 00:39:36.040
And so have, are you now pairing up
your staff, your clients with this kind

00:39:36.040 --> 00:39:38.590
of in hand work and with the horses?

00:39:38.590 --> 00:39:41.350
And if so, what are you
observing with them?

00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:45.370
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so, so I
think that's a great question.

00:39:45.850 --> 00:39:51.040
And it's something like I, I'm doing
that now, but, but even before that,

00:39:51.430 --> 00:39:56.050
I tried as much as possible to have
the clients help with the horses.

00:39:56.050 --> 00:39:56.410
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:39:56.860 --> 00:39:57.640
Katja Mehlhorn: I mean, that helps me.

00:39:57.640 --> 00:39:58.210
That's great.

00:39:58.210 --> 00:40:01.480
But also it's so great
for their self-confidence.

00:40:02.140 --> 00:40:02.980
Oh, I can help you.

00:40:02.980 --> 00:40:06.785
You, you got a new horse and you asked
me to help with it, and I'm the one,

00:40:06.885 --> 00:40:08.140
the first one who can trot on him.

00:40:08.140 --> 00:40:12.280
I mean, if it, it's true or not,
whatever, but to, to give them

00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:15.910
the feeling like, wow, I'm not
just here for myself, but also to.

00:40:17.125 --> 00:40:23.255
To contribute something for example,
or, or aside from the self-confidence

00:40:23.255 --> 00:40:27.995
thing, something just that they are
able to do something for the horse

00:40:27.995 --> 00:40:30.125
can be so impactful for people.

00:40:30.605 --> 00:40:35.315
I have a very, someone
very bad childhood drama.

00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:35.720
Mm-hmm.

00:40:35.885 --> 00:40:39.575
And I let her do the masters in like
the simple masters in technique.

00:40:39.575 --> 00:40:41.315
It's the bladder meridian.

00:40:41.315 --> 00:40:45.395
You just slowly move your hand over a
line on the body and you look at the

00:40:45.395 --> 00:40:49.565
signals of the horse, and then you see
things like a blink, you weight, and

00:40:49.565 --> 00:40:54.605
then at some point the horse, you get
to big chewing, yawning, amazing action.

00:40:54.995 --> 00:40:58.865
And she was just moved to tears like,
wow, am I doing this to the horse?

00:40:58.865 --> 00:41:01.475
Can I actually make the horse feel better?

00:41:01.505 --> 00:41:06.185
Because she didn't think she
could be useful for anyone.

00:41:06.665 --> 00:41:08.465
So that, that can be so impactful.

00:41:09.185 --> 00:41:12.995
And that's the same with
help having them Yeah.

00:41:13.055 --> 00:41:17.495
Help to train the horse, of course,
in, in those patterns and helping them

00:41:17.555 --> 00:41:19.385
train the horse, get, get stronger.

00:41:20.285 --> 00:41:20.405
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:41:20.405 --> 00:41:23.795
I think there's a particular crossover
there with trauma, as you say.

00:41:23.855 --> 00:41:27.545
You know, we, there's a, a number
of programs that we work with, with

00:41:27.545 --> 00:41:32.585
veterans and we found that getting
them to do the in-hand work that's

00:41:32.585 --> 00:41:36.695
the TEKE program seems to have this
direct correlation of, particularly

00:41:36.695 --> 00:41:38.345
when it's a new horse that needs rehab.

00:41:38.645 --> 00:41:41.225
'cause as you know, people,
people who donate horses are

00:41:41.225 --> 00:41:42.695
not donating their best horse.

00:41:42.695 --> 00:41:45.155
So usually they're
donating it for a reason.

00:41:45.155 --> 00:41:49.895
It's got some problem or
problems there and needs rehab.

00:41:49.955 --> 00:41:56.935
And if, if the, if the underlying script
is this horse was broken in service could

00:41:56.935 --> 00:42:02.945
you please help me bring this horse back
so that it can now serve that autistic

00:42:02.945 --> 00:42:06.245
child over there, there seems to be.

00:42:06.740 --> 00:42:11.990
Such a value in that, that we
didn't see initially, we couldn't

00:42:11.990 --> 00:42:13.430
have anticipated initially.

00:42:13.610 --> 00:42:17.120
'cause as you know, when we started
doing it, we did it out of desperation

00:42:17.330 --> 00:42:20.660
because we were running out of
time to condition our own horses.

00:42:20.660 --> 00:42:25.070
And then I had this kind of duh moment
where I was like, but hold on, Rupert,

00:42:25.100 --> 00:42:27.500
the, the clients are the horse trainers.

00:42:27.860 --> 00:42:28.280
Surely.

00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:28.340
Yeah.

00:42:28.490 --> 00:42:28.940
You know?

00:42:29.240 --> 00:42:31.970
And indeed that turned
out to be, to be the case.

00:42:32.070 --> 00:42:32.700
Okay.

00:42:32.790 --> 00:42:33.480
So

00:42:33.810 --> 00:42:35.040
Katja Mehlhorn: can I,
can I jump in on that?

00:42:35.040 --> 00:42:35.170
Please, please.

00:42:35.170 --> 00:42:40.410
Because I please, I'm just thinking
of, of amazing place I've visited and

00:42:40.410 --> 00:42:42.900
I also helped to do some research on

00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:43.290
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

00:42:43.590 --> 00:42:47.340
Katja Mehlhorn: And where they, they
are a horse rescue and they also at some

00:42:47.340 --> 00:42:51.270
point just started having kids come in
and now, now they're also child rescue.

00:42:51.685 --> 00:42:51.885
Mm-hmm.

00:42:52.225 --> 00:42:56.760
So they work with, at Rescue Youth
and they just do amazing things and

00:42:56.760 --> 00:43:00.150
one of the ingredients is that they
pair the child with a rescue horse.

00:43:00.615 --> 00:43:04.125
And then the child's kind of
task is to, to rehab that horse.

00:43:05.245 --> 00:43:06.115
That makes so much sense.

00:43:06.115 --> 00:43:06.655
Tell me what,

00:43:06.685 --> 00:43:07.735
Rupert Isaacson: what's
the name of this place?

00:43:08.035 --> 00:43:09.325
Katja Mehlhorn: It's Brook Hill Farm.

00:43:09.955 --> 00:43:10.825
Rupert Isaacson: Brook Hill?

00:43:10.915 --> 00:43:11.185
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:43:11.185 --> 00:43:13.105
In Virginia.

00:43:13.165 --> 00:43:15.685
I think Joan Ann Miller is the director.

00:43:15.815 --> 00:43:16.265
Virginia.

00:43:16.625 --> 00:43:16.925
Yeah.

00:43:16.925 --> 00:43:17.705
You should talk to her.

00:43:17.710 --> 00:43:18.125
She's, I

00:43:18.125 --> 00:43:18.905
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.

00:43:18.905 --> 00:43:19.775
I'm gonna talk to, yeah.

00:43:20.315 --> 00:43:21.515
What's the name of the person?

00:43:22.025 --> 00:43:23.255
Katja Mehlhorn: Joanne Miller.

00:43:23.495 --> 00:43:24.245
Rupert Isaacson: Joanne.

00:43:24.245 --> 00:43:25.955
One word or Okay.

00:43:25.955 --> 00:43:26.945
Joanne Miller.

00:43:27.005 --> 00:43:27.905
I'll, I'll look her up.

00:43:28.415 --> 00:43:32.405
And that's Horse Rescue.

00:43:32.465 --> 00:43:33.665
Horse and Kid Rescue.

00:43:33.665 --> 00:43:33.905
Yeah.

00:43:33.910 --> 00:43:33.980
Yeah.

00:43:34.535 --> 00:43:36.365
I can feel another podcast coming on.

00:43:36.365 --> 00:43:36.785
There we go.

00:43:36.785 --> 00:43:37.685
Thank you very much.

00:43:37.685 --> 00:43:39.575
I will be in contact with her.

00:43:39.695 --> 00:43:40.580
Katja Mehlhorn: They have done, why,

00:43:40.655 --> 00:43:42.065
Rupert Isaacson: why did you
go there and do research?

00:43:42.065 --> 00:43:42.785
What took you there?

00:43:43.115 --> 00:43:46.175
Katja Mehlhorn: Oh, well, I, I
met her at, I went to the Path

00:43:46.175 --> 00:43:47.855
Conference years and years ago.

00:43:47.855 --> 00:43:47.945
Mm-hmm.

00:43:47.945 --> 00:43:50.105
And I met her there and
we stayed in contact.

00:43:50.555 --> 00:43:54.115
And then when we, we lived in the us
we, before moving back to Europe, we

00:43:54.115 --> 00:43:56.905
did a six week tour of the whole states.

00:43:57.115 --> 00:44:01.405
And then we, we stayed with her a couple
of days and we talked about, okay,

00:44:01.405 --> 00:44:04.735
how can you, because you're doing such
amazing stuff, how can you actually show

00:44:04.735 --> 00:44:08.845
that in a way that others take serious?

00:44:09.505 --> 00:44:12.500
And then we started setting up
this research paper, which I think

00:44:12.500 --> 00:44:14.125
got published finally last year.

00:44:14.125 --> 00:44:15.715
Took us like 10 years or so.

00:44:17.680 --> 00:44:20.010
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

00:44:20.010 --> 00:44:24.440
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

00:44:24.510 --> 00:44:28.780
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:34.420
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:44:35.015 --> 00:44:41.325
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:44:41.325 --> 00:44:43.995
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:44:43.995 --> 00:44:46.875
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:44:47.215 --> 00:44:50.485
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:44:50.980 --> 00:44:55.930
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:44:56.590 --> 00:44:58.030
It works incredibly well.

00:44:58.030 --> 00:44:59.750
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:45:00.460 --> 00:45:01.210
Check it out.

00:45:01.890 --> 00:45:06.040
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:45:06.050 --> 00:45:09.420
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:45:09.420 --> 00:45:11.170
applied in schools, in homes.

00:45:11.370 --> 00:45:16.360
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:45:16.360 --> 00:45:17.900
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:45:19.255 --> 00:45:20.535
when they're not with you.

00:45:21.045 --> 00:45:24.485
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:45:24.845 --> 00:45:27.465
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:45:27.465 --> 00:45:31.465
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:45:31.495 --> 00:45:35.785
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:45:36.225 --> 00:45:39.565
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:45:39.585 --> 00:45:43.825
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:45:44.025 --> 00:45:48.315
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:45:48.315 --> 00:45:51.615
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:45:51.615 --> 00:45:54.710
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:45:54.950 --> 00:45:59.450
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:45:59.780 --> 00:46:01.430
absolutely gives you this.

00:46:01.490 --> 00:46:03.530
What were the findings and
where did you publish it?

00:46:04.170 --> 00:46:05.460
Katja Mehlhorn: At the HEI Journal.

00:46:05.790 --> 00:46:06.330
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:46:06.450 --> 00:46:06.660
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:46:06.660 --> 00:46:08.790
Rupert Isaacson: And so
we could find it there?

00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:09.420
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.

00:46:09.420 --> 00:46:09.570
Yeah.

00:46:10.020 --> 00:46:11.610
Rupert Isaacson: Published
by you, catcher Melbourne.

00:46:11.820 --> 00:46:12.030
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:46:12.030 --> 00:46:13.230
I'm one of the author, yeah.

00:46:13.350 --> 00:46:13.830
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:14.900
So what were the findings?

00:46:15.860 --> 00:46:21.650
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so, well, the,
the findings was that all kids who

00:46:21.710 --> 00:46:26.240
started the program actually completed
high school, which was very unlikely

00:46:26.240 --> 00:46:29.150
for that population because they
all started because they were at

00:46:29.150 --> 00:46:30.770
risk of dropping out of high school.

00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:30.920
So

00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:33.860
Rupert Isaacson: what was, how long
were they usually in the program for?

00:46:34.610 --> 00:46:38.510
Katja Mehlhorn: De depended on how
far it was to high school graduation.

00:46:38.660 --> 00:46:45.080
So some started like two years before,
and I don't remember the exact numbers.

00:46:45.200 --> 00:46:45.290
Right.

00:46:45.350 --> 00:46:47.600
Rupert Isaacson: But we are not talking
like a period of weeks here we're talking.

00:46:47.600 --> 00:46:47.720
No,

00:46:47.720 --> 00:46:48.000
Katja Mehlhorn: no, no.

00:46:48.020 --> 00:46:49.250
It's just really long term.

00:46:49.250 --> 00:46:53.390
That's also, so in the paper we discuss
a couple of factors that could play a

00:46:53.390 --> 00:46:57.770
role and the pair pairing with the, with
the rescue horse was one, but also that

00:46:57.770 --> 00:47:00.650
it's really a long-term relationship.

00:47:01.130 --> 00:47:01.550
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:01.970
Katja Mehlhorn: There.

00:47:01.970 --> 00:47:04.670
Rupert Isaacson: But as you know, I
mean a lot of that's, it seems to be

00:47:04.670 --> 00:47:09.320
a lot of the success behind animal,
all animal assisted therapies is

00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:12.260
that people will tend to finish the

00:47:12.265 --> 00:47:12.445
mm-hmm.

00:47:12.675 --> 00:47:12.965
Yeah.

00:47:12.965 --> 00:47:13.245
Course

00:47:13.245 --> 00:47:16.280
of therapy because they now have
a relationship with the animal.

00:47:16.340 --> 00:47:16.730
Yes.

00:47:16.760 --> 00:47:20.270
Rather than a relationship with
a boring old therapist who sits

00:47:20.270 --> 00:47:22.730
there in a chair making them
feel terrible about themselves.

00:47:22.735 --> 00:47:22.965
Yeah.

00:47:22.970 --> 00:47:23.390
Yeah.

00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:24.220
Okay, so.

00:47:24.820 --> 00:47:27.220
They, they would tend to go
on and finish high school.

00:47:27.220 --> 00:47:27.760
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.

00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:28.835
Rupert Isaacson: What were, no,

00:47:29.015 --> 00:47:30.610
Katja Mehlhorn: not 10 to all
of them finished high school.

00:47:30.610 --> 00:47:31.120
All of them?

00:47:31.125 --> 00:47:31.235
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:47:31.570 --> 00:47:31.690
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:47:31.690 --> 00:47:32.230
All of them.

00:47:32.230 --> 00:47:32.530
Yeah.

00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:34.240
Rupert Isaacson: What
was the control group?

00:47:34.240 --> 00:47:35.200
How many people were there?

00:47:35.260 --> 00:47:35.500
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:47:35.500 --> 00:47:39.010
So it wasn't actually good
researching in that sense.

00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:41.380
So we just looked at, at what they did.

00:47:41.590 --> 00:47:41.920
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:47:42.220 --> 00:47:42.880
Katja Mehlhorn: Because it's not how many

00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:43.690
Rupert Isaacson: people in the group?

00:47:44.500 --> 00:47:46.120
Katja Mehlhorn: Oh, oh, what
was, oh, the size of the group.

00:47:46.120 --> 00:47:48.040
I think they were a hundred
or something like that.

00:47:48.070 --> 00:47:48.490
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

00:47:48.490 --> 00:47:48.790
Okay.

00:47:48.790 --> 00:47:49.630
Well, that's, yeah.

00:47:49.630 --> 00:47:50.560
That's sizable.

00:47:50.705 --> 00:47:50.995
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:47:51.250 --> 00:47:51.550
Yeah.

00:47:52.050 --> 00:47:55.430
Rupert Isaacson: Were there other
factors like criminal behaviors or

00:47:55.430 --> 00:47:58.130
violent behaviors or anything like that?

00:47:58.130 --> 00:47:59.330
Social emotional stuff?

00:47:59.540 --> 00:47:59.870
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:47:59.870 --> 00:48:04.520
We, we don't, didn't have numbers on
that, but from like what the, what they

00:48:04.520 --> 00:48:07.490
reported definitely that, that got better.

00:48:07.820 --> 00:48:09.590
Because yeah, they.

00:48:10.220 --> 00:48:13.490
They did not get kicked out of school
and they, they could finish school.

00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:18.510
A lot of them also came
from pretty bad backgrounds.

00:48:18.540 --> 00:48:18.630
Yes.

00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:22.200
And, and despite that, they,
they persevered and I think

00:48:22.230 --> 00:48:26.000
almost all of them went on to
like, post high school education.

00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:27.260
Yeah.

00:48:27.620 --> 00:48:28.520
Rupert Isaacson: Do you know how

00:48:28.520 --> 00:48:29.150
Katja Mehlhorn: full stuff

00:48:29.300 --> 00:48:30.740
Rupert Isaacson: Joanne
Miller gets this funded?

00:48:30.740 --> 00:48:34.100
Because, you know, unlike, unlike in
the Netherlands where you've actually

00:48:34.100 --> 00:48:37.340
got government funding for this, and
I know this from having worked so

00:48:37.340 --> 00:48:42.020
many years in the USAIDs tends to be
philanthropy, you know, has, this is

00:48:42.020 --> 00:48:43.320
quite a big program by the sounds of

00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:43.330
Katja Mehlhorn: it.

00:48:43.330 --> 00:48:43.445
Yeah.

00:48:43.670 --> 00:48:47.150
I I think by now they actually
got that far that they got paid,

00:48:47.150 --> 00:48:48.860
get paid by the school system.

00:48:49.640 --> 00:48:49.670
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:48:49.910 --> 00:48:50.300
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:48:50.450 --> 00:48:54.090
So that took of course,
years of of donating and, and

00:48:54.090 --> 00:48:55.590
fundraising and everything.

00:48:55.650 --> 00:48:59.190
And also because they're horse rescue,
they get some funding through that.

00:48:59.700 --> 00:49:01.160
But yeah, by now the, the.

00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:05.210
As my last at least last time I
talked to her, the school district

00:49:05.210 --> 00:49:07.370
actually paid because That's great.

00:49:07.430 --> 00:49:07.760
Okay.

00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:10.040
These kids, if they go there,
they will finish school.

00:49:10.040 --> 00:49:10.460
So,

00:49:10.790 --> 00:49:10.940
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:14.180
Well, Brook Hill Farm, I'm
gonna gonna look them up.

00:49:14.810 --> 00:49:20.420
One of the things which as you know,
we, with our methods Horse Boy Method

00:49:20.420 --> 00:49:25.670
Movement method, we actually ascribe the
most importance to is the environment.

00:49:26.120 --> 00:49:26.210
Mm-hmm.

00:49:26.660 --> 00:49:34.490
We've definitely found that bringing a
horse in, if the physical environment

00:49:34.490 --> 00:49:40.680
is full of bad sensory triggers for the
human, and if the emotional environment is

00:49:40.680 --> 00:49:45.980
not good as well if people are bossy, if
people are, you know, walking around with

00:49:45.980 --> 00:49:49.730
that body language that a lot of horsey
people have that I have to watch in myself

00:49:49.730 --> 00:49:53.330
too, where I'm always kind of in a bit
of a hurry with the body slanted forward

00:49:53.330 --> 00:49:55.130
and, you know, barking orders at people.

00:49:55.490 --> 00:49:59.660
You've got a particularly
whimsical environment, I feel.

00:49:59.660 --> 00:50:02.240
Can you talk us through
your emotional whimsical

00:50:02.360 --> 00:50:02.870
Yeah,

00:50:02.930 --> 00:50:03.200
yeah.

00:50:03.200 --> 00:50:03.440
Whim.

00:50:03.560 --> 00:50:06.710
That, it's one of my favorite words
'cause it's one of my favorite things.

00:50:06.980 --> 00:50:07.220
Whims.

00:50:07.220 --> 00:50:07.340
How do

00:50:07.520 --> 00:50:08.300
Katja Mehlhorn: you find whimsical?

00:50:08.660 --> 00:50:18.870
Rupert Isaacson: Whimsical is a
mixture of beautiful with slightly

00:50:19.350 --> 00:50:22.680
some elements of the fantastical.

00:50:23.890 --> 00:50:34.030
And some elements of playful,
joyful where you are doing something

00:50:34.540 --> 00:50:35.980
for the pure pleasure of it.

00:50:36.940 --> 00:50:37.420
Nice.

00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:40.690
Rather than just for the usefulness of it.

00:50:40.720 --> 00:50:41.170
Yeah.

00:50:41.170 --> 00:50:42.280
When, yeah.

00:50:42.900 --> 00:50:47.190
And usually there's some sort of
natural, implication in there.

00:50:48.330 --> 00:50:50.340
But yeah, talk us
through your environment.

00:50:50.340 --> 00:50:53.010
'cause I, I felt when I was there,
there was a lot to learn actually

00:50:53.010 --> 00:50:54.930
from just how your place is set up.

00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:56.250
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, yeah.

00:50:56.250 --> 00:50:59.160
I think nature, that's,
that's totally essential.

00:50:59.160 --> 00:51:04.470
And we live in the north of the
Netherlands in the countryside, so

00:51:04.470 --> 00:51:05.790
you would think nature is a thing.

00:51:05.790 --> 00:51:11.670
But no, because the countryside
here is basically just very flat,

00:51:12.150 --> 00:51:17.820
high, high energy grass for the
cows that have to produce, I don't

00:51:17.820 --> 00:51:19.140
know how many liters of milk.

00:51:19.830 --> 00:51:23.010
And so yeah, you have to put some
work here to actually get more than

00:51:23.010 --> 00:51:25.080
just flat grass with zero flowers.

00:51:25.680 --> 00:51:29.290
So we have so we have
some hills, we have trees.

00:51:29.290 --> 00:51:32.230
We are lucky that this place
actually had still all trees.

00:51:33.370 --> 00:51:36.990
So part of where the horses are,
that that's also just trees.

00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:40.620
Yeah, we, we have, we have
flowers in, in the field.

00:51:40.620 --> 00:51:44.890
So what we do with the horses with
the kids a lot, we ride in the field

00:51:44.890 --> 00:51:48.820
with all the hills and we go on a
safari, and then we spot hyenas and

00:51:48.820 --> 00:51:52.280
tigers and which are of course just the
sheep and the cows of the neighbors.

00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:58.850
But it's good for your imagination to
do some pretend play on the safari.

00:52:00.230 --> 00:52:01.340
Rupert Isaacson: Talk
to us about the flowers.

00:52:01.340 --> 00:52:02.240
How do you use flowers?

00:52:02.720 --> 00:52:06.880
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so we,
we have just herbs and yeah.

00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:07.690
How do we use them?

00:52:07.690 --> 00:52:09.160
I mean, you look at them sometimes.

00:52:09.160 --> 00:52:12.360
Sometimes we we go and
collect edible plants for the

00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:14.340
horses or even for the kids.

00:52:14.340 --> 00:52:17.820
Although I, I've got a bit more, more
careful because I had this kid who

00:52:17.820 --> 00:52:19.320
really liked what are they called?

00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:20.720
The little, they called daisies.

00:52:21.035 --> 00:52:21.920
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:23.600
The, the white ones of the yellow center.

00:52:23.675 --> 00:52:23.965
Yeah.

00:52:23.990 --> 00:52:24.380
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:24.650
Yeah.

00:52:24.650 --> 00:52:28.220
And apparently he threw up when they got
home and his mom thought it was because

00:52:28.220 --> 00:52:30.380
of the daisies, which I kind of doubt, but

00:52:30.680 --> 00:52:34.100
Rupert Isaacson: unlikely because they're
known as one of the most edible flowers.

00:52:34.190 --> 00:52:34.520
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:52:34.520 --> 00:52:37.820
And I mean, he didn't add eat
kilos of them, but, so I'm always

00:52:37.820 --> 00:52:40.610
a little like, okay, we, we
try, but we don't eat too much.

00:52:41.810 --> 00:52:42.200
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:52:42.260 --> 00:52:43.850
Doesn't sound like it was the daisies.

00:52:43.850 --> 00:52:44.180
Yeah.

00:52:44.185 --> 00:52:44.225
Yeah.

00:52:44.230 --> 00:52:46.905
Because Daisy's a di
dithers and Dithers is, and

00:52:47.020 --> 00:52:49.155
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I, I think
it just shows how scared

00:52:49.155 --> 00:52:50.655
people are of nature right now.

00:52:50.685 --> 00:52:50.775
Yes.

00:52:50.775 --> 00:52:54.705
Like, oh my God, you get my, you let
my kid eat stuff from you or garden

00:52:54.705 --> 00:52:57.135
that, ooh, that must be why he got sick.

00:52:57.225 --> 00:52:58.005
So, yeah.

00:52:58.575 --> 00:52:58.905
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:52:58.905 --> 00:52:59.475
Unlikely.

00:52:59.805 --> 00:53:01.505
And I mean, kids get sick anyway.

00:53:01.655 --> 00:53:03.305
Doesn't mean we shouldn't
be careful, but Yeah.

00:53:03.305 --> 00:53:06.725
Knowing one's, knowing one's environment,
we do as, you know, tons of foraging.

00:53:06.935 --> 00:53:07.025
Mm-hmm.

00:53:07.215 --> 00:53:10.665
Because that's, that's actually
how Horse Boy started was.

00:53:10.665 --> 00:53:10.755
Mm-hmm.

00:53:11.025 --> 00:53:12.685
I went without horses.

00:53:13.015 --> 00:53:16.375
I, before there was horse
boy, you know, I had gone for.

00:53:16.990 --> 00:53:17.950
Mentorship to Dr.

00:53:17.950 --> 00:53:20.890
Temple Grandin who
said, follow your child.

00:53:20.890 --> 00:53:20.980
Mm-hmm.

00:53:21.220 --> 00:53:25.000
So I followed him into the woods
and he just started eating stuff.

00:53:25.210 --> 00:53:29.020
And now, you know, you know, I have this
background with hunting and gathering

00:53:29.050 --> 00:53:31.930
tribes, so I'm a reasonable forger.

00:53:32.240 --> 00:53:34.655
But I didn't know that particular
environment in central Texas,

00:53:35.240 --> 00:53:38.600
but it wasn't difficult to
quickly learn like the 10 most,

00:53:39.020 --> 00:53:39.110
mm-hmm.

00:53:39.350 --> 00:53:39.680
Common,

00:53:39.830 --> 00:53:40.610
you know, edible plants.

00:53:40.820 --> 00:53:43.700
But it, there were actually a lot
of poisonous plants in Texas that

00:53:43.700 --> 00:53:48.450
one had, and I couldn't explain to
him the difference between edibility

00:53:48.450 --> 00:53:50.480
at that point and, toxicity.

00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:52.910
So I would say, let's go
look for daddy leaves.

00:53:53.090 --> 00:53:54.140
These are daddy leaves.

00:53:54.140 --> 00:53:57.920
These ones, these are not daddy
leaves, you know, and I'd mind like

00:53:57.920 --> 00:53:59.690
falling over and throwing up and dying.

00:54:00.050 --> 00:54:03.980
And he found that very funny, but to this
day, he can feed himself off the forest.

00:54:03.980 --> 00:54:06.590
It's really interesting and I
always feel that that's such a

00:54:06.590 --> 00:54:09.980
good skill to teach people because
it's, it's actually security.

00:54:09.980 --> 00:54:13.460
A couple of times in my life I've,
you know, in my younger life I ended

00:54:13.460 --> 00:54:17.660
up completely broke and could to some
degree feed myself off the countryside,

00:54:18.080 --> 00:54:19.640
you know, while living in a tent.

00:54:19.820 --> 00:54:20.240
It's, but

00:54:20.395 --> 00:54:25.070
Katja Mehlhorn: it, it seems to be
kind of an inherent human thing.

00:54:25.100 --> 00:54:29.330
Like we have, you probably
saw our huge raspberry thing.

00:54:29.330 --> 00:54:29.510
Yes.

00:54:29.990 --> 00:54:34.850
So the kids just like, sometimes
they never pick their own fruit and

00:54:34.850 --> 00:54:38.960
they're also fascinated by, wow, wow,
we can just like pick this and eat it.

00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:40.400
And, and it's nice and

00:54:40.580 --> 00:54:43.040
Rupert Isaacson: well because that's
what it means to fundamentally be Yeah.

00:54:43.040 --> 00:54:43.880
A human organism.

00:54:43.970 --> 00:54:44.180
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:54:44.180 --> 00:54:45.175
Rupert Isaacson: We, we, we are not.

00:54:46.295 --> 00:54:50.045
Supposed to go to stores and
buy food in plastic packages.

00:54:50.045 --> 00:54:55.415
We are supposed to feed ourselves
from the habitat that our monkey

00:54:55.475 --> 00:54:57.455
species is supposed to live in.

00:54:57.455 --> 00:54:57.665
Yeah.

00:54:58.110 --> 00:55:06.095
I, I, I, I so agree that even the
movements I feel of reaching to pick

00:55:06.365 --> 00:55:09.965
that, those types of fine motor,
you know, people spend ages trying

00:55:09.965 --> 00:55:11.435
to teach a child fine motor skills.

00:55:11.585 --> 00:55:11.825
Mm-hmm.

00:55:12.155 --> 00:55:12.485
Yeah.

00:55:12.645 --> 00:55:17.685
In a way that's not terribly motivating
in a, you know, lab full of plastic stuff.

00:55:18.095 --> 00:55:20.855
When you can, as you say, go to
your raspberry patch and you've

00:55:20.855 --> 00:55:26.355
got that gorgeous raspberry patch
there and other berries and the

00:55:26.355 --> 00:55:28.005
natural instincts are gonna kick in.

00:55:28.010 --> 00:55:28.110
Mm-hmm.

00:55:28.275 --> 00:55:30.015
And the fine motor skills will follow.

00:55:30.495 --> 00:55:35.145
It's always astonishing to me that people
don't explore these things more as, you

00:55:35.145 --> 00:55:37.155
know, the standard therapeutic tools.

00:55:37.575 --> 00:55:40.185
Also, you know, just
the distance of walking.

00:55:40.750 --> 00:55:43.120
Because I know that when the kids come
to you, they're not always on the pony.

00:55:43.120 --> 00:55:44.800
They can run around, they can explore.

00:55:45.140 --> 00:55:47.840
So this is gonna create endorphins mm-hmm.

00:55:47.841 --> 00:55:49.610
Which is going to calm the brain,
which is going to make the brain,

00:55:49.610 --> 00:55:50.540
you know, open for learning.

00:55:50.950 --> 00:55:55.780
I know too that you've got an
interesting bird reserve in part of your

00:55:55.780 --> 00:55:56.650
mm-hmm.

00:55:56.890 --> 00:55:56.980
Yeah.

00:55:56.980 --> 00:55:57.610
Talk to us about that.

00:55:57.610 --> 00:55:59.650
I found that really interesting
when I, I came to you.

00:56:00.370 --> 00:56:00.550
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:56:00.550 --> 00:56:04.470
So the, the Netherlands is
u used to be this big yeah.

00:56:04.470 --> 00:56:05.760
What are they called in English?

00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:07.890
Like birds of the field or something?

00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:09.030
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:56:09.030 --> 00:56:12.270
And, and, and sort of
a bird migratory Yes.

00:56:12.270 --> 00:56:12.420
Way thing.

00:56:12.570 --> 00:56:12.900
Yeah.

00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:16.470
Katja Mehlhorn: But, but because of
the, the fields looking now, like

00:56:16.470 --> 00:56:20.940
I just described earlier with like
high performance grass and zero

00:56:20.940 --> 00:56:23.040
flowers, which means zero insects.

00:56:23.460 --> 00:56:23.550
Mm-hmm.

00:56:23.550 --> 00:56:25.710
Those birds are declining like crazy.

00:56:26.010 --> 00:56:26.400
Mm-hmm.

00:56:26.640 --> 00:56:32.040
And so they have set up systems that you
can get actually government funding if

00:56:32.040 --> 00:56:35.610
you have an area that's bird friendly.

00:56:36.375 --> 00:56:38.895
And the most bird friendly
is also water on the land.

00:56:38.895 --> 00:56:42.075
So we have a part where our
land is just underwater.

00:56:42.735 --> 00:56:42.825
Mm-hmm.

00:56:43.065 --> 00:56:44.685
And then, yeah, it's amazing.

00:56:44.685 --> 00:56:50.685
It's just, I think that area is like
three hectare, whatever that is in acres.

00:56:50.745 --> 00:56:51.430
I never know that's, it's,

00:56:51.430 --> 00:56:52.125
Rupert Isaacson: that's big.

00:56:52.125 --> 00:56:53.205
That's about 15 acres.

00:56:53.205 --> 00:56:53.505
Yeah.

00:56:53.565 --> 00:56:54.585
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, yeah.

00:56:54.735 --> 00:56:54.975
Yeah.

00:56:54.975 --> 00:56:58.485
But, but I mean, that's nothing like
compared to all the fields around

00:56:58.485 --> 00:57:03.135
us, which are just like that, that
green golf course kind of stuff.

00:57:04.065 --> 00:57:07.515
And still the birds find
it and we have this Yeah.

00:57:07.515 --> 00:57:10.815
Swarms of birds coming there
and, and breeding there.

00:57:11.445 --> 00:57:13.605
Rupert Isaacson: Do you take the
kids, you know, out to look at that?

00:57:13.605 --> 00:57:14.955
Do you, do you.

00:57:15.855 --> 00:57:19.740
Educate them about the different
bird species and how the ecosystem

00:57:19.890 --> 00:57:20.180
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:57:20.185 --> 00:57:20.385
Yeah.

00:57:20.385 --> 00:57:23.775
So if we go for, for rides either on
our safaris from the hills, you have

00:57:23.775 --> 00:57:27.615
a really, really great few on, on
the bird area, but we also have this

00:57:27.615 --> 00:57:29.745
bike path going along our property.

00:57:29.985 --> 00:57:30.075
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:57:30.405 --> 00:57:34.125
Katja Mehlhorn: And normally those
birds are really hard to, to to see

00:57:34.185 --> 00:57:37.515
because they're kind of shy of people,
but because they're used to being next

00:57:37.515 --> 00:57:41.535
to the bike path at our place, you can
just like be on the bike path and like

00:57:41.535 --> 00:57:43.755
on the fence, post two meters from you.

00:57:43.755 --> 00:57:46.605
There's this bird, rare bird sitting.

00:57:47.265 --> 00:57:47.595
And can you

00:57:47.660 --> 00:57:50.115
Rupert Isaacson: give us, I'm
a, I'm a bit of a bird nerd.

00:57:50.415 --> 00:57:53.595
Can you, I'm sure some of the people
are, can you give us an example

00:57:53.595 --> 00:57:55.005
of what some of the species are?

00:57:55.155 --> 00:57:56.415
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, but not in English.

00:57:57.405 --> 00:57:58.995
Rupert Isaacson: Let's, let's
try and then we'll see if we can

00:57:59.940 --> 00:58:01.975
Katja Mehlhorn: The theto is the most

00:58:02.470 --> 00:58:04.585
Rupert Isaacson: uhto Can you do a
quick Google translate on that one?

00:58:04.585 --> 00:58:07.460
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I'll look, I think

00:58:10.255 --> 00:58:11.965
that's the Dutch National
bird or something.

00:58:11.965 --> 00:58:12.445
Oh God.

00:58:12.450 --> 00:58:12.590
We.

00:58:13.570 --> 00:58:14.380
Rupert Isaacson: Godwits.

00:58:14.470 --> 00:58:15.400
Oh

00:58:15.640 --> 00:58:16.000
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah.

00:58:16.150 --> 00:58:16.570
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:58:16.570 --> 00:58:18.490
So if you dunno what a godwit is, lads.

00:58:18.520 --> 00:58:22.130
It's a really beautiful bird
shorebird with a long beak.

00:58:22.380 --> 00:58:25.770
And it's a black and white
bird with quite long legs.

00:58:25.830 --> 00:58:27.240
Very, very beautiful.

00:58:27.300 --> 00:58:28.200
I know what a godwit is.

00:58:28.350 --> 00:58:28.950
What else have you got?

00:58:30.270 --> 00:58:32.520
Katja Mehlhorn: Thank G which is he?

00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:33.480
Lapwing.

00:58:33.810 --> 00:58:34.920
Rupert Isaacson: Lapwings, that thing.

00:58:34.950 --> 00:58:35.610
Yeah.

00:58:35.640 --> 00:58:39.830
When I was a boy in the East
Midlands in England we used

00:58:39.830 --> 00:58:42.710
to have clouds of lapwings.

00:58:43.010 --> 00:58:43.370
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm.

00:58:43.610 --> 00:58:43.810
Rupert Isaacson: Which is really,

00:58:44.780 --> 00:58:44.840
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah.

00:58:44.840 --> 00:58:44.870
They're my favorite.

00:58:44.870 --> 00:58:46.910
They're so pretty with
a little white grounds.

00:58:47.390 --> 00:58:50.690
Rupert Isaacson: And they have a, they're
like a plover with a little curly Q

00:58:50.720 --> 00:58:53.300
cresty thing on the back of the head.

00:58:53.480 --> 00:58:53.750
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

00:58:53.800 --> 00:58:54.730
Rupert Isaacson: Very elegant.

00:58:55.060 --> 00:58:57.760
And yeah, there was a point
where I remember all the lap

00:58:57.760 --> 00:58:59.050
wings just kind of disappeared.

00:58:59.680 --> 00:58:59.800
Mm-hmm.

00:59:00.040 --> 00:59:02.165
And now they're like on the endangered,
listen, but my boyhood, I remembered.

00:59:02.440 --> 00:59:02.710
Yeah.

00:59:03.160 --> 00:59:04.690
Clouds of thousands of them.

00:59:04.690 --> 00:59:04.750
Yeah.

00:59:05.140 --> 00:59:08.200
And it's so interesting how this kind
of thing happens in our lifetimes.

00:59:08.200 --> 00:59:08.260
Yeah.

00:59:08.740 --> 00:59:09.160
Katja Mehlhorn: Shocking.

00:59:09.160 --> 00:59:09.460
Also,

00:59:09.970 --> 00:59:12.980
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

00:59:13.380 --> 00:59:18.280
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

00:59:18.280 --> 00:59:20.530
bit about the old master system.

00:59:20.995 --> 00:59:22.305
of dressage training.

00:59:22.345 --> 00:59:30.915
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

00:59:30.985 --> 00:59:37.265
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

00:59:37.275 --> 00:59:43.795
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

00:59:43.845 --> 00:59:46.615
well being of the horse and the rider.

00:59:46.675 --> 00:59:47.415
Intrigued?

00:59:47.615 --> 00:59:48.475
Like to know more?

00:59:49.345 --> 00:59:52.175
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

00:59:53.875 --> 00:59:55.565
Check out the free introduction course.

00:59:56.125 --> 00:59:56.645
Take it from there.

00:59:57.149 --> 01:00:03.329
do you, what sort of education do you
give to the kids around these birds?

01:00:03.329 --> 01:00:08.039
Because that's a real metaphor for
obviously the care for the planet,

01:00:08.099 --> 01:00:10.949
you know, how's that integrated?

01:00:11.219 --> 01:00:13.589
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I, I,
I think that's a great idea.

01:00:13.589 --> 01:00:14.609
I should do that more.

01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:18.809
So usually they're like, oh yeah,
birds, and then they wanna move

01:00:18.809 --> 01:00:23.309
back to something interesting so
that most kids don't seem to bear.

01:00:23.309 --> 01:00:26.909
Sometimes some are interested, but most
don't really seem to care about the birds.

01:00:27.759 --> 01:00:29.439
But I should do that.

01:00:29.439 --> 01:00:33.009
And I mean, of, obviously you can
also do geography and whatever,

01:00:33.009 --> 01:00:35.564
like looking up where they come
from and where they going, they

01:00:35.569 --> 01:00:36.119
Rupert Isaacson: travel and, yeah.

01:00:36.119 --> 01:00:36.389
Yeah.

01:00:36.419 --> 01:00:40.859
I mean, I, I guess a lot, so much of it
depends on one's own level of enthusiasm.

01:00:40.859 --> 01:00:42.299
I, I tend to get the kids.

01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:44.999
Quite enthused about birds and wildlife.

01:00:45.029 --> 01:00:46.079
'cause I get so enthused.

01:00:46.079 --> 01:00:49.589
So when people see me jumping up
and down, then okay, well that's

01:00:49.589 --> 01:00:50.909
something to jump up and down about.

01:00:51.059 --> 01:00:53.399
But I remember when we were
working, you know, in Germany a

01:00:53.399 --> 01:00:58.139
lot, we would have these incredible
flights of cranes coming over

01:00:58.229 --> 01:00:58.559
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.

01:00:58.949 --> 01:01:01.889
Rupert Isaacson: Fall in the spring,
but really like thousands of them.

01:01:02.309 --> 01:01:05.759
And you'd hear them and then
you'd look for them and then

01:01:05.759 --> 01:01:08.489
you'd see these crazy formations.

01:01:08.829 --> 01:01:11.019
But sometimes they'd also
come over really low.

01:01:11.589 --> 01:01:16.959
And all of the kids got really excited.

01:01:17.139 --> 01:01:20.889
And as, yeah, as you say, then that
became a way into talking about all

01:01:20.889 --> 01:01:24.999
the little brown birds that were around
and starting to observe in more detail.

01:01:25.329 --> 01:01:29.739
And I was really often impressed
by how often if you just gave a

01:01:29.739 --> 01:01:32.199
child permission to be interested

01:01:32.679 --> 01:01:32.859
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.

01:01:33.639 --> 01:01:34.629
Rupert Isaacson: In something.

01:01:34.749 --> 01:01:36.579
Because I think, I think a lot of kids.

01:01:38.364 --> 01:01:43.344
Dismiss the natural world because
their parental culture does like,

01:01:43.734 --> 01:01:44.004
yeah.

01:01:44.064 --> 01:01:44.454
Bugs are

01:01:44.454 --> 01:01:45.114
disgusting.

01:01:45.114 --> 01:01:46.464
Dirt is disgusting.

01:01:47.004 --> 01:01:47.784
That's awful.

01:01:47.814 --> 01:01:48.594
Dah dah, dah, dah.

01:01:48.834 --> 01:01:52.134
And I've, I've noticed, I dunno if
you've noticed this, but frequently

01:01:52.134 --> 01:01:56.814
when kids come in to our program,
they come with that language.

01:01:57.564 --> 01:02:02.484
And then when they see you pick up a
beetle or let a spider run over your

01:02:02.484 --> 01:02:06.624
hand or, and talk about how cool it is,
and we really get down and look at it.

01:02:06.629 --> 01:02:06.789
Mm-hmm.

01:02:06.924 --> 01:02:10.224
And then the next thing I know,
they're pointing out the things to me.

01:02:10.224 --> 01:02:10.284
Yeah.

01:02:10.434 --> 01:02:14.754
And the next thing you know, they're
delighted by it and exploring.

01:02:14.754 --> 01:02:17.964
And it's like they've
rediscovered their habitat.

01:02:17.994 --> 01:02:18.084
Mm-hmm.

01:02:18.564 --> 01:02:22.524
Do, have you been seen
similar types of export?

01:02:22.524 --> 01:02:22.614
Yes,

01:02:22.614 --> 01:02:23.154
Katja Mehlhorn: certainly.

01:02:23.154 --> 01:02:26.994
Like for, for example, we, we have
apple trees and then they pick up the

01:02:26.994 --> 01:02:28.854
apple and they throw it like it's hot.

01:02:29.124 --> 01:02:29.994
Like, wow, what's happening?

01:02:29.994 --> 01:02:33.504
Oh, there was like a little spot
of dirt or, or, or an end on there.

01:02:34.449 --> 01:02:39.549
And like, oh, but look, we just clean
it off and, and you can still eat it.

01:02:39.549 --> 01:02:42.489
And then sometimes there's like
no way they're even go, going

01:02:42.489 --> 01:02:44.049
to go near that apple again.

01:02:44.049 --> 01:02:46.329
But sometimes you're like,
oh, actually it's nice.

01:02:46.419 --> 01:02:49.419
Or we feed it to doors and then
at least the horse can enjoy it.

01:02:50.139 --> 01:02:55.179
So yeah, you, you can certainly
lower their threshold for

01:02:55.239 --> 01:02:56.859
what they find disgusting.

01:02:57.549 --> 01:03:00.189
I don't know if that's something
you found, but I find a lot of

01:03:00.189 --> 01:03:03.459
the autistic kids who come here
also have a sensory thing with

01:03:03.459 --> 01:03:06.009
touching things that might be dirty.

01:03:06.579 --> 01:03:06.879
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:03:06.999 --> 01:03:09.489
Katja Mehlhorn: Just touching
the horse or touching a brush

01:03:10.119 --> 01:03:11.799
can be, can be a challenge.

01:03:12.339 --> 01:03:12.969
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:03:12.969 --> 01:03:16.899
We, we found a really interesting
way with that one, which was

01:03:17.399 --> 01:03:19.079
having first kids wear gloves

01:03:19.439 --> 01:03:19.679
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.

01:03:20.099 --> 01:03:24.959
Rupert Isaacson: To touch things
so that they felt safe and then we

01:03:24.959 --> 01:03:29.634
next to them would be touching the
same thing without the glove and.

01:03:30.764 --> 01:03:35.624
Including it in the conversation,
but without any pressure on

01:03:35.624 --> 01:03:38.024
the kid to remove the glove.

01:03:38.594 --> 01:03:38.774
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:03:38.774 --> 01:03:39.134
But

01:03:39.134 --> 01:03:44.774
Rupert Isaacson: what I've found is that
in general, after a few weeks of that,

01:03:45.314 --> 01:03:47.054
the kid starts doing it without the glove.

01:03:47.054 --> 01:03:47.144
Mm-hmm.

01:03:47.144 --> 01:03:49.754
And there was one really
extreme example, as you say.

01:03:49.754 --> 01:03:53.234
We had this really dirt phobic
kid, and one of the things which we

01:03:53.234 --> 01:03:57.974
did a lot in this particular place
was mushroom foraging in the fall.

01:03:58.394 --> 01:04:00.254
And it's great 'cause
you take the kids out.

01:04:00.674 --> 01:04:01.034
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:04:01.084 --> 01:04:03.214
Rupert Isaacson: And in Germany it's,
it's really a thing as you know.

01:04:03.514 --> 01:04:08.274
And we'd have the kid on top as a spotter
and we'd have a group of us around.

01:04:08.334 --> 01:04:08.604
Yeah.

01:04:08.754 --> 01:04:11.484
We'd have to spot mushrooms and
then we'd run off to see if they

01:04:11.484 --> 01:04:12.954
were one that we could pick or not.

01:04:13.014 --> 01:04:13.224
Mm-hmm.

01:04:13.924 --> 01:04:17.104
And if it wasn't one that we could
pick, we'd also talk about why.

01:04:17.534 --> 01:04:20.294
But in general, we could fill up a bag.

01:04:20.699 --> 01:04:22.859
And we wouldn't ask them
to eat that mushroom.

01:04:23.039 --> 01:04:25.889
We would do them for ourselves,
but we'd be very grateful to the

01:04:25.889 --> 01:04:27.059
child, you know, for helping us.

01:04:27.359 --> 01:04:30.599
But of course, in the process, they end
up noticing all sorts of other things.

01:04:30.989 --> 01:04:37.399
But the, this one kid then kept saying,
how can you pick these mushrooms?

01:04:37.399 --> 01:04:39.199
They're full of bugs.

01:04:39.559 --> 01:04:40.669
'cause they, you would observe.

01:04:40.669 --> 01:04:42.619
We'd pick it and there'd be
like, stuff crawling on it.

01:04:42.619 --> 01:04:42.679
Yeah.

01:04:43.159 --> 01:04:43.339
Katja Mehlhorn: Like,

01:04:43.389 --> 01:04:47.289
Rupert Isaacson: And then I said, well,
you know, I used to be afraid, like you

01:04:48.799 --> 01:04:53.484
even though I didn't and you know, I
found that if I, but if I did it with

01:04:53.574 --> 01:04:56.094
gloves, I, it wasn't a problem by then.

01:04:56.094 --> 01:05:00.234
Of course, the kid that we were some
weeks in was interested and at a certain

01:05:00.234 --> 01:05:03.054
point he wanted to get off the horse
with gloves on and pick the mushroom.

01:05:03.624 --> 01:05:08.304
And then of course, he had a reaction
when a, a bug crawled across the glove.

01:05:09.084 --> 01:05:14.364
But I think I, it was, I noticed
it was after about 10 weeks, he was

01:05:14.364 --> 01:05:15.744
picking these mushrooms without.

01:05:16.179 --> 01:05:18.309
The glove and, and I had forgotten.

01:05:18.519 --> 01:05:23.229
And then I remembered, and then two weeks
after that he was helping me plant trees.

01:05:23.589 --> 01:05:23.799
Awesome.

01:05:23.799 --> 01:05:28.209
And getting his hands like in the dirt
and removing all the things of dirt with

01:05:28.209 --> 01:05:33.009
his And, and you realize, oh, right,
there's kind of a learning curve here.

01:05:33.219 --> 01:05:33.399
Mm-hmm.

01:05:33.759 --> 01:05:35.859
I guess is that
neuroplasticity piece, right.

01:05:36.159 --> 01:05:40.899
That the brain actually changes,
but it's gonna change more

01:05:40.899 --> 01:05:44.379
rapidly and more effectively with
the aid of the natural habitat.

01:05:44.799 --> 01:05:44.889
Mm-hmm.

01:05:45.249 --> 01:05:47.199
Organism is supposed to be in.

01:05:47.319 --> 01:05:47.709
Right.

01:05:48.199 --> 01:05:51.739
Whereas if one is always working
in say, an arena that's such a

01:05:51.739 --> 01:05:53.859
sterile environment how can we

01:05:55.539 --> 01:05:57.549
Katja Mehlhorn: actually, I've
done the same thing with poo now.

01:05:59.379 --> 01:06:01.659
A kid that was just like,
oh, this is so disgusting.

01:06:01.659 --> 01:06:05.679
And I had him, I went poo picking
and I had him spot the poo for me.

01:06:06.339 --> 01:06:09.884
So yeah, even in the arena, you, you
have to be creative with what you had you

01:06:09.884 --> 01:06:10.084
Rupert Isaacson: do.

01:06:10.344 --> 01:06:12.549
And then he, you ended up
showering in the poo and

01:06:12.729 --> 01:06:13.209
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:06:13.209 --> 01:06:13.479
No

01:06:13.689 --> 01:06:15.039
Rupert Isaacson: canoeing
and swimming in the

01:06:15.039 --> 01:06:15.099
Katja Mehlhorn: poo.

01:06:16.719 --> 01:06:18.639
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, well Poo
of course is really interesting

01:06:18.699 --> 01:06:20.739
because it's a barometer of health.

01:06:20.744 --> 01:06:21.034
Mm-hmm.

01:06:21.114 --> 01:06:23.169
So I always point out the poo mm-hmm.

01:06:23.175 --> 01:06:24.369
And say like, look at that poo.

01:06:24.369 --> 01:06:27.999
Do you think that that's from a
healthy animal or a non-healthy animal?

01:06:27.999 --> 01:06:31.119
And if it's, and what I find is
quite interesting is, is the kids

01:06:31.119 --> 01:06:32.649
actually instinctively often know.

01:06:33.009 --> 01:06:33.279
Katja Mehlhorn: I think

01:06:33.459 --> 01:06:34.179
Rupert Isaacson: we all do.

01:06:34.269 --> 01:06:36.009
Like if it's runny or something,

01:06:36.639 --> 01:06:36.789
Katja Mehlhorn: or

01:06:36.789 --> 01:06:39.909
Rupert Isaacson: if it's good firm
British stools, such as we built

01:06:39.909 --> 01:06:44.569
the empire with what you know, it is
really interesting how simply drawing

01:06:44.569 --> 01:06:45.949
attention to something like this.

01:06:45.979 --> 01:06:46.069
Mm-hmm.

01:06:46.549 --> 01:06:49.579
You know, and then of course from
there you can get into gut health.

01:06:49.639 --> 01:06:51.589
And from gut health you
can get into brain health.

01:06:51.949 --> 01:06:53.269
And then you can get into diet.

01:06:53.569 --> 01:06:56.209
'cause as you know, a lot of these
kids maybe don't have such great diets.

01:06:56.769 --> 01:07:00.129
It, it's always seems to me that
everything is a portal to something else.

01:07:00.309 --> 01:07:00.399
Mm-hmm.

01:07:01.029 --> 01:07:01.299
Yeah.

01:07:01.299 --> 01:07:01.309
Yeah.

01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:03.859
You've also got a lot of water around you.

01:07:03.864 --> 01:07:04.044
Mm-hmm.

01:07:04.159 --> 01:07:06.499
You're in the Netherlands and I
know that you've got this beautiful,

01:07:06.679 --> 01:07:10.659
you know, canal that runs by your
old farmhouse through the fields.

01:07:10.959 --> 01:07:13.659
Have you been able to use that at all?

01:07:15.699 --> 01:07:16.869
Katja Mehlhorn: No, actually not.

01:07:17.169 --> 01:07:19.359
So I remember when you were
there, you're like, oh, you

01:07:19.359 --> 01:07:21.309
should put like boats and stuff.

01:07:21.459 --> 01:07:23.169
But here it's just so normal.

01:07:23.229 --> 01:07:27.489
Like, yeah, of course there's water that
no one even seems to care about the water.

01:07:29.529 --> 01:07:32.829
But that's still on my bucket
list to have to do something

01:07:32.829 --> 01:07:33.879
more active with the water.

01:07:33.879 --> 01:07:38.259
I mean, what we do with the, with the
horses, we like if there's bottles or

01:07:38.259 --> 01:07:43.089
stuff we, we go through or with some kids,
sometimes also we have kids with some.

01:07:44.334 --> 01:07:47.274
Motor issues that find it
hard to walk, for example.

01:07:47.279 --> 01:07:47.439
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:07:47.444 --> 01:07:47.514
Mm-hmm.

01:07:48.054 --> 01:07:48.414
And then

01:07:48.414 --> 01:07:50.124
Katja Mehlhorn: just walking
through the mud together and

01:07:50.124 --> 01:07:51.264
first you hold their hands.

01:07:51.294 --> 01:07:54.824
And I actually had a girl that was
so afraid of walking through the

01:07:54.824 --> 01:07:58.504
mud a couple of years and while
ago she walked with the pony.

01:07:58.564 --> 01:08:00.964
She got the pony out of the
mud and was like, look at you.

01:08:00.964 --> 01:08:02.434
You're doing this all by yourself.

01:08:02.434 --> 01:08:03.214
Do you remember that?

01:08:03.214 --> 01:08:03.934
You couldn't do it?

01:08:03.934 --> 01:08:05.254
And she was like, really?

01:08:05.254 --> 01:08:05.554
No.

01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:06.994
I, I always could do this.

01:08:07.924 --> 01:08:08.434
So

01:08:08.914 --> 01:08:09.964
Rupert Isaacson: that's
so interesting, isn't it?

01:08:09.964 --> 01:08:11.554
The, the amnesia that

01:08:11.644 --> 01:08:11.824
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:08:12.094 --> 01:08:15.274
Rupert Isaacson: Kicks in
once the skillset and the

01:08:15.274 --> 01:08:16.834
brain has made that change.

01:08:17.104 --> 01:08:17.464
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:08:17.734 --> 01:08:18.214
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:08:18.214 --> 01:08:20.044
That's my challenge for you
then, is to use the water.

01:08:20.049 --> 01:08:20.059
Yeah.

01:08:20.179 --> 01:08:22.774
'cause when I look at those things,
and I've actually done a little bit

01:08:22.774 --> 01:08:26.044
of exploration here and there in
the Netherlands on the waterways.

01:08:26.049 --> 01:08:26.299
Mm-hmm.

01:08:26.554 --> 01:08:29.974
And it's, it's such a radically
different perspective.

01:08:30.124 --> 01:08:30.604
Mm-hmm.

01:08:30.849 --> 01:08:30.979
It is.

01:08:30.984 --> 01:08:31.779
It's the

01:08:31.779 --> 01:08:33.484
landscape from the point
of view of the water.

01:08:33.814 --> 01:08:35.674
And as you know, there's
a lot of hidden wildlife

01:08:35.679 --> 01:08:35.819
mm-hmm.

01:08:35.969 --> 01:08:36.784
That you

01:08:36.784 --> 01:08:38.254
only see if you're on the water.

01:08:38.459 --> 01:08:38.739
Yeah.

01:08:38.744 --> 01:08:38.944
Yeah.

01:08:39.134 --> 01:08:42.674
That some of the water birds, some of
the water mammals, that sort of thing,

01:08:42.704 --> 01:08:45.764
they, they hide in those reed beds.

01:08:46.064 --> 01:08:46.184
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.

01:08:46.514 --> 01:08:48.524
Rupert Isaacson: So when I
come back, I, I think we should

01:08:48.824 --> 01:08:49.634
Katja Mehlhorn: You wanna go in the water?

01:08:49.874 --> 01:08:49.964
I

01:08:49.964 --> 01:08:50.834
Rupert Isaacson: wanna go in the water.

01:08:50.834 --> 01:08:50.894
Yeah.

01:08:51.159 --> 01:08:53.174
And I was thinking
there's two ways to do it.

01:08:53.174 --> 01:08:56.384
Like, you could do like a wide
flat bottomed barge thing where

01:08:56.384 --> 01:08:57.734
there's room to move around.

01:08:58.364 --> 01:09:02.804
Or one could do like canoes
or double kayaks, or maybe,

01:09:03.464 --> 01:09:05.144
depending on the cognitive level

01:09:05.414 --> 01:09:05.774
Yeah.

01:09:05.984 --> 01:09:07.004
Of, of the child.

01:09:07.004 --> 01:09:10.304
But I, I, I could see it being
rather delightful, whimsical.

01:09:10.304 --> 01:09:11.504
There's that word to sort of.

01:09:12.434 --> 01:09:16.604
Go to that dock by your house and
then maybe canoe up to a point to

01:09:16.604 --> 01:09:20.474
then mow the boat to then catch
the horse that's in that mm-hmm.

01:09:20.475 --> 01:09:21.104
Field and bring it back.

01:09:21.314 --> 01:09:21.644
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:09:21.884 --> 01:09:22.754
Switch at the windmill.

01:09:22.754 --> 01:09:23.114
Yeah.

01:09:23.834 --> 01:09:24.104
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:09:24.104 --> 01:09:24.434
Oh yeah.

01:09:24.434 --> 01:09:26.594
And you've also, you've got, that's
right, you've got that windmill.

01:09:26.594 --> 01:09:26.654
Yeah.

01:09:26.864 --> 01:09:29.054
So talk to us about that.

01:09:29.084 --> 01:09:34.574
It, it, it's, it's a real old
historical proper job, you know?

01:09:34.994 --> 01:09:35.264
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:09:35.269 --> 01:09:36.689
Pumping the water kind of mill.

01:09:36.999 --> 01:09:37.489
Very stories

01:09:37.519 --> 01:09:37.929
Rupert Isaacson: type thing.

01:09:37.959 --> 01:09:38.249
Yeah.

01:09:38.504 --> 01:09:38.654
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:09:38.734 --> 01:09:39.784
Rupert Isaacson: Is it still working?

01:09:39.784 --> 01:09:44.554
And again, do you incorporate
that a little bit into what you do

01:09:44.554 --> 01:09:46.174
sort of with the environment and

01:09:47.314 --> 01:09:51.004
Katja Mehlhorn: It's it's like
not really used to pump the

01:09:51.004 --> 01:09:52.804
water anymore because there is a.

01:09:54.414 --> 01:09:54.769
Is that what

01:09:54.769 --> 01:09:55.279
Rupert Isaacson: it was for?

01:09:55.279 --> 01:09:56.729
It was a water pumping, yes, yes, yes.

01:09:56.774 --> 01:09:58.609
Not a, not necessarily a grain?

01:09:58.729 --> 01:09:59.449
Katja Mehlhorn: No, not at all.

01:09:59.479 --> 01:10:00.154
No, just for the water.

01:10:00.154 --> 01:10:00.394
Okay.

01:10:00.394 --> 01:10:00.874
Rupert Isaacson: That I didn't know.

01:10:01.099 --> 01:10:01.279
Okay.

01:10:01.339 --> 01:10:04.189
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, because, so
we have the canal, and then the land

01:10:04.219 --> 01:10:10.129
often is lower than the canal, so
they pump it like up levels in the

01:10:10.129 --> 01:10:12.979
Netherlands, because if they stop
pumping, the country will be flooded

01:10:12.979 --> 01:10:15.409
and I don't know, very scarily quickly.

01:10:16.369 --> 01:10:16.399
Okay.

01:10:16.879 --> 01:10:20.714
So now that's all I don't know,
diesel or something, but the wind,

01:10:20.959 --> 01:10:24.769
the old windmills, some of them
still exist for heritage thing.

01:10:24.769 --> 01:10:29.469
And sometimes if it's really bad, they
also still use them just on top of so it

01:10:29.469 --> 01:10:33.549
turns at least once a week also, because
they need to do that to keep it in shape.

01:10:33.549 --> 01:10:36.399
Otherwise the the woodworms
are going to eat it.

01:10:37.299 --> 01:10:39.489
Rupert Isaacson: Do the
kids find this interesting.

01:10:39.489 --> 01:10:42.759
Do you, do you bring this into, because
this is, this is a real thing about.

01:10:44.334 --> 01:10:47.059
Sense of place right where
they live, who they are mm-hmm.

01:10:47.274 --> 01:10:48.264
In the Netherlands.

01:10:48.804 --> 01:10:52.074
So do, do you incorporate
those conversations about the

01:10:52.074 --> 01:10:55.584
windmill into your explorations
with on horseback on the land?

01:10:55.674 --> 01:10:57.744
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, sometimes.

01:10:57.744 --> 01:11:00.894
But, but again, windmill for them
is such a normal thing that it's

01:11:00.894 --> 01:11:04.014
like, yeah, the el windmill, we also
have one next to our house will.

01:11:05.904 --> 01:11:09.774
So, but some kids who can get
more than, than with others.

01:11:10.374 --> 01:11:13.554
But I, like me as a German,
I'm always amazed still at

01:11:13.554 --> 01:11:15.114
those typical Dutch features.

01:11:15.114 --> 01:11:18.384
And then they look at me like, yeah,
what's so exciting about windmill?

01:11:18.564 --> 01:11:18.744
So,

01:11:19.074 --> 01:11:20.904
Rupert Isaacson: well, of course
these things are as exciting as

01:11:20.904 --> 01:11:24.924
one makes them, like if one true
makes an exciting story around them.

01:11:24.984 --> 01:11:25.404
Yeah.

01:11:25.454 --> 01:11:30.554
And when, again, back to the place we
were at in Germany, we often served so

01:11:30.554 --> 01:11:36.424
much kids from the local international
school many of whom by the age of, I

01:11:36.424 --> 01:11:38.824
don't know, eight, you know, they had.

01:11:39.559 --> 01:11:41.659
Moved, say three or four times.

01:11:42.199 --> 01:11:47.059
They might have come from the,
their dad might have gotten some

01:11:47.059 --> 01:11:49.399
corporate job, you know, in China.

01:11:49.879 --> 01:11:55.219
And then they had gone from
there to Ireland and then now

01:11:55.219 --> 01:11:57.079
here they were, or, or America.

01:11:57.109 --> 01:11:58.969
And now here they were in Germany.

01:11:59.029 --> 01:12:00.979
And we often realized that
they really didn't kind of

01:12:00.979 --> 01:12:02.689
know where they were, you know?

01:12:02.689 --> 01:12:02.749
Yeah.

01:12:03.169 --> 01:12:07.429
They were in some sort
of bubble of expat land.

01:12:07.669 --> 01:12:07.819
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.

01:12:08.209 --> 01:12:12.049
Rupert Isaacson: Which was
their TV shows, their school,

01:12:13.159 --> 01:12:15.049
sometimes their expat friends.

01:12:15.739 --> 01:12:23.419
And I realized, oh, you don't
know really what Germany is.

01:12:23.869 --> 01:12:24.049
Okay.

01:12:24.049 --> 01:12:24.289
Yeah.

01:12:25.039 --> 01:12:26.904
So let's find out what Germany is then.

01:12:26.904 --> 01:12:27.224
Mm-hmm.

01:12:27.559 --> 01:12:29.749
So we'd, I'd, I'd make sure that we had.

01:12:30.694 --> 01:12:31.714
German food to eat.

01:12:31.774 --> 01:12:37.294
And we would sprinkle German into the
sessions and we would talk about why

01:12:37.294 --> 01:12:42.214
the landscape looks like it does, and
who were the Germans and where did

01:12:42.214 --> 01:12:45.394
they come from, because they'd actually
come in after the, that particular area

01:12:45.394 --> 01:12:48.244
was Celtic before the Germans came in.

01:12:48.244 --> 01:12:49.294
And why did the Germans came?

01:12:49.294 --> 01:12:50.884
'cause the Romans had been
there and then the Germans

01:12:50.884 --> 01:12:52.294
came and chased the Romans out.

01:12:52.324 --> 01:12:55.724
'cause they wanted this, who had chased
the Celts out and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

01:12:55.724 --> 01:13:00.244
And we found, and then of course you
get into fairytales because that area

01:13:00.244 --> 01:13:04.264
that we were in Hesen, that's where the
brothers grim, did all their fairytales.

01:13:04.264 --> 01:13:10.684
So we found that you could give
people a real sense of place.

01:13:10.684 --> 01:13:16.414
And then of course, that translated
to people actually from the area

01:13:16.414 --> 01:13:18.244
themselves who had been born there.

01:13:18.634 --> 01:13:24.424
But again, as you know, so many kids these
days, the, the, the, the, the experience

01:13:24.424 --> 01:13:25.594
of the world is through a screen.

01:13:26.344 --> 01:13:26.674
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:13:26.884 --> 01:13:27.064
Rupert Isaacson: So.

01:13:28.489 --> 01:13:32.329
They just, 'cause they're born in the
Netherlands and there's a canal and an

01:13:32.389 --> 01:13:35.929
and a windmill doesn't mean that they ever
really see the canal of the That's true.

01:13:36.259 --> 01:13:37.009
You know what I mean?

01:13:37.099 --> 01:13:37.384
Yeah, yeah.

01:13:37.819 --> 01:13:41.059
So I think your, your excitement
about a canal and a windmill mm-hmm.

01:13:41.059 --> 01:13:42.139
Would be quite infectious.

01:13:42.139 --> 01:13:42.409
No.

01:13:42.439 --> 01:13:42.529
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.

01:13:43.159 --> 01:13:43.489
Yeah.

01:13:44.299 --> 01:13:44.419
Yeah.

01:13:44.419 --> 01:13:47.269
So I guess I'm easier
excited about animals.

01:13:47.269 --> 01:13:50.569
So we do that actually quite a
lot when we go riding outside,

01:13:50.569 --> 01:13:52.009
there's like sheep and cows.

01:13:52.729 --> 01:13:52.819
Mm-hmm.

01:13:53.059 --> 01:13:54.349
So, so we interact with them.

01:13:55.189 --> 01:13:57.319
Some kids are pretty good impersonators.

01:13:57.319 --> 01:14:00.379
It's always a challenge who
get the sheep to respond if you

01:14:00.529 --> 01:14:01.999
call out to them in, in sheep.

01:14:03.679 --> 01:14:04.939
So yeah.

01:14:04.939 --> 01:14:07.759
That's probably also what you are Yeah.

01:14:07.849 --> 01:14:10.309
Excited about and be able to communicate.

01:14:10.309 --> 01:14:10.879
You're excited.

01:14:10.884 --> 01:14:11.024
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:14:11.479 --> 01:14:11.899
Exactly.

01:14:12.109 --> 01:14:14.929
But I always have to challenge myself
to get excited about things, which

01:14:14.929 --> 01:14:16.849
I'm maybe not so excited about.

01:14:16.999 --> 01:14:18.439
You must have this one, you know?

01:14:18.439 --> 01:14:18.499
Oh,

01:14:19.189 --> 01:14:19.249
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah.

01:14:19.249 --> 01:14:19.549
And, and many

01:14:19.549 --> 01:14:21.769
Rupert Isaacson: of the kids
are like into Minecraft.

01:14:21.769 --> 01:14:23.959
It's like, I'm not into
Minecraft, you know?

01:14:24.829 --> 01:14:29.899
It's like I will never be into Minecraft,
but I have to pretend to be, you know?

01:14:29.899 --> 01:14:30.109
Yeah.

01:14:30.319 --> 01:14:35.029
And I have to find aspects of Minecraft
to get excited about so that I can

01:14:35.029 --> 01:14:36.649
have conversations about Minecraft.

01:14:36.654 --> 01:14:36.944
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:14:37.219 --> 01:14:38.299
' Rupert Isaacson: cause
that's where the kid is at.

01:14:38.299 --> 01:14:38.599
Right?

01:14:38.839 --> 01:14:40.009
How, how do you deal with that?

01:14:40.009 --> 01:14:44.539
Like Marvel characters, computer
games, all of that stuff.

01:14:44.539 --> 01:14:47.629
How do you use that?

01:14:48.229 --> 01:14:49.819
Those interests of the kids.

01:14:50.659 --> 01:14:50.809
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:14:50.809 --> 01:14:55.279
So, so when I get a new kid, they have
intake and I ask about their interests.

01:14:55.369 --> 01:14:55.759
Mm-hmm.

01:14:56.029 --> 01:14:59.419
And then sometimes interests that the
parents say are not even the interested

01:14:59.419 --> 01:15:01.039
that come back in the sessions.

01:15:01.499 --> 01:15:03.149
But, but often, often they do.

01:15:03.239 --> 01:15:08.699
And then, yeah, kind of depending on the
cognitive level, ask the kids about it.

01:15:08.699 --> 01:15:12.429
Like how, oh, I how was
Formula One yesterday?

01:15:12.999 --> 01:15:19.209
Or like, we played a Formula One
car, or I had a boy who was inch

01:15:19.239 --> 01:15:24.039
or boy, he was in his twenties,
super interested in mapping wars.

01:15:24.039 --> 01:15:25.149
I didn't know that was a thing.

01:15:25.149 --> 01:15:30.549
Okay, so he, so you, there is a whole
YouTube channels where they map wars so

01:15:30.549 --> 01:15:35.139
you can, every day you see how the map
changes depending on the development

01:15:35.769 --> 01:15:37.749
Rupert Isaacson: of wars
that are going on right now.

01:15:37.749 --> 01:15:38.409
Or historic.

01:15:38.409 --> 01:15:38.439
Oh,

01:15:38.439 --> 01:15:38.979
Katja Mehlhorn: everything.

01:15:39.399 --> 01:15:39.909
Everything.

01:15:39.999 --> 01:15:43.869
So he had done a second World
War day by day in the Middle

01:15:43.869 --> 01:15:45.219
East or something like that.

01:15:45.249 --> 01:15:45.969
Crazy.

01:15:46.329 --> 01:15:51.579
Several year project, and then that's
the way to, to get them talking because

01:15:51.579 --> 01:15:53.859
he actually rather wrote in silence.

01:15:53.859 --> 01:15:57.789
But yeah, when, once you started
asking about that, he couldn't like,

01:15:57.789 --> 01:15:59.679
help himself and got very excited.

01:15:59.979 --> 01:16:00.969
Rupert Isaacson: And what did you want?

01:16:00.969 --> 01:16:04.329
Like, for me, actually, honestly,
the nerd in me is immediately

01:16:04.329 --> 01:16:05.589
really excited by that.

01:16:05.649 --> 01:16:06.039
Right.

01:16:06.189 --> 01:16:07.959
I, I would find that totally interesting.

01:16:08.109 --> 01:16:08.319
Yes.

01:16:08.409 --> 01:16:13.839
But what, how did you, if that's not
your area of excitement, how did you find

01:16:13.839 --> 01:16:19.149
your way into that excitement so that
you could, you know, help bring him out?

01:16:19.479 --> 01:16:23.319
How did you, how did you, if not
fake, you know, cultivate, let's say

01:16:23.319 --> 01:16:25.089
enough excitement yourself around it.

01:16:25.089 --> 01:16:25.239
I'm a

01:16:25.239 --> 01:16:26.979
Katja Mehlhorn: curious
person, so that's, that's good.

01:16:26.979 --> 01:16:27.909
As a starting point.

01:16:27.909 --> 01:16:28.389
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:16:28.445 --> 01:16:30.935
Katja Mehlhorn: And as, as you say, if
someone else is enthusiast about it,

01:16:30.935 --> 01:16:33.605
it's kind of easy to, to get drawn into.

01:16:34.625 --> 01:16:35.045
Yeah.

01:16:35.045 --> 01:16:38.195
But yeah, you can of course also do
research like before the next session,

01:16:38.195 --> 01:16:41.555
I made sure to watch some of the,
of the videos and learn a little bit

01:16:41.555 --> 01:16:45.455
about it so that I had some questions
prepared in case I needed them.

01:16:45.875 --> 01:16:46.595
Rupert Isaacson: Well, okay.

01:16:46.595 --> 01:16:50.285
Let's talk about that because you
make that sound like, oh, of course.

01:16:50.285 --> 01:16:55.355
I just, you know, watched some videos
and I, I would posit that your average

01:16:55.355 --> 01:17:04.055
equine assisted practitioner actually
does not go and research the mm-hmm.

01:17:04.056 --> 01:17:08.075
Interests of the person
that they're going to serve.

01:17:08.075 --> 01:17:10.055
And this is actually one of the,

01:17:12.635 --> 01:17:15.365
it's not a pet peeve, it's just
a limitation that I observe

01:17:15.425 --> 01:17:20.225
frequently in the mindsets of
equestrian minded people is that we

01:17:20.225 --> 01:17:22.565
ourselves we're so horse focused.

01:17:23.495 --> 01:17:27.005
We find the horse so fascinating with
flabbergasted no space, not brain

01:17:27.005 --> 01:17:27.725
Katja Mehlhorn: for anything else.

01:17:27.905 --> 01:17:28.085
Yeah.

01:17:28.205 --> 01:17:28.295
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:17:28.300 --> 01:17:29.375
Other people find them boring.

01:17:29.885 --> 01:17:34.535
But then we don't often
transfer that to other things.

01:17:34.535 --> 01:17:39.965
And when I'm doing say, horse boy
trainings with young people who are

01:17:39.965 --> 01:17:44.855
maybe going into the equine assisted
field, and I'll say, what's the story?

01:17:44.855 --> 01:17:45.995
What's the mythology?

01:17:46.265 --> 01:17:50.015
What's, what's that tree over
there of this place that we

01:17:50.015 --> 01:17:50.945
are doing the training in?

01:17:51.215 --> 01:17:53.855
And frequently I'll get a feedback saying,
well, I'm not really interested in that.

01:17:53.855 --> 01:17:57.395
And then I'll say, okay,
well get interested.

01:17:58.775 --> 01:18:04.315
'cause if you can't keep up a running
commentary of interesting stories around

01:18:04.315 --> 01:18:12.925
the place that you're in, how are you
going to involve somebody in the place?

01:18:12.930 --> 01:18:13.010
Mm-hmm.

01:18:13.405 --> 01:18:19.085
And also, if you are asking a person
to make a change, like become verbal.

01:18:19.670 --> 01:18:23.750
Or accept numbers or reduce your anxiety.

01:18:23.750 --> 01:18:24.860
I mean, that's a huge thing.

01:18:26.060 --> 01:18:31.910
What are you the practitioner
doing to challenge yourself

01:18:31.940 --> 01:18:33.530
to make changes all the time?

01:18:33.710 --> 01:18:35.030
What language are you learning?

01:18:35.150 --> 01:18:35.210
Yeah.

01:18:35.330 --> 01:18:39.380
What you know, or are you coming
from this point of view of saying,

01:18:39.680 --> 01:18:43.670
I don't need to change, I'm,
you know, I'm the practitioner.

01:18:44.235 --> 01:18:46.460
You know, you are the client,
you need to change, and then,

01:18:46.490 --> 01:18:48.620
then you've got no tools to Yeah.

01:18:48.620 --> 01:18:48.950
And in

01:18:48.950 --> 01:18:51.020
Katja Mehlhorn: therapy world
as the concept of the wounded

01:18:51.020 --> 01:18:52.250
healer, I'm sure, you know

01:18:52.430 --> 01:18:52.760
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:18:52.820 --> 01:18:53.570
Go on about that.

01:18:53.575 --> 01:18:55.550
Katja Mehlhorn: But, but that's
kind of the same idea, right?

01:18:55.580 --> 01:18:59.750
So if you have gone through
some thing yourself, some trauma

01:18:59.750 --> 01:19:01.970
or you, you have wounds, yeah.

01:19:01.970 --> 01:19:08.060
Then it is easier to, to relate, I
guess to someone else who does that.

01:19:08.270 --> 01:19:09.830
And if you healed, you can.

01:19:10.340 --> 01:19:10.640
Yeah.

01:19:10.670 --> 01:19:14.300
It's easier to relate to someone else
having to heal and all that shit.

01:19:14.300 --> 01:19:16.250
They will have to go
through to, to get there.

01:19:17.180 --> 01:19:21.590
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you as a
matter of course, research the interests

01:19:21.590 --> 01:19:23.060
of your, of the kids that come?

01:19:23.720 --> 01:19:23.900
Yeah.

01:19:23.900 --> 01:19:24.230
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, definitely.

01:19:25.070 --> 01:19:25.460
Rupert Isaacson: Do you

01:19:25.460 --> 01:19:30.650
find that you have a certain amount
of people who help you on your team?

01:19:30.680 --> 01:19:30.770
Mm-hmm.

01:19:31.490 --> 01:19:34.880
Do they do that too, or do they do
it 'cause you tell 'em to do it?

01:19:34.940 --> 01:19:35.930
Or do they do it naturally?

01:19:35.930 --> 01:19:35.990
Yeah.

01:19:37.445 --> 01:19:37.745
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:19:37.745 --> 01:19:41.075
But, but they're learning, so
that's also a thing to, to develop.

01:19:41.075 --> 01:19:45.905
And some people are more
natural at this than others.

01:19:47.045 --> 01:19:47.255
Mm-hmm.

01:19:47.255 --> 01:19:47.855
But do you find

01:19:47.855 --> 01:19:51.875
Rupert Isaacson: it something that you
need to actually emphasize when you're

01:19:51.875 --> 01:19:53.020
training people into your program?

01:19:53.120 --> 01:19:53.340
Yes.

01:19:53.735 --> 01:19:54.035
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:19:54.035 --> 01:19:56.555
So, so often, like if you
have new people, there's like,

01:19:56.555 --> 01:19:57.755
you do, you have tips for me?

01:19:57.755 --> 01:19:59.375
Like, we doing the session.

01:19:59.375 --> 01:20:00.455
Well, what should I do?

01:20:01.055 --> 01:20:01.175
Mm-hmm.

01:20:01.176 --> 01:20:04.025
And I think my, my first tip is
always like at the start, just hang

01:20:04.025 --> 01:20:08.255
back and then try to relate to the
client, like what they're doing.

01:20:09.015 --> 01:20:10.425
So yeah.

01:20:10.575 --> 01:20:14.265
Example, autistic boy is
coming in and sees this new

01:20:14.265 --> 01:20:16.035
person and is nervous about it.

01:20:16.155 --> 01:20:21.735
So he goes and picks flowers, looks at
the flowers, then yeah, just, just go

01:20:21.735 --> 01:20:26.235
and also pick flowers and maybe you get
slower, slowly closer to him and point out

01:20:26.235 --> 01:20:28.455
this particularly nice flower you found.

01:20:28.515 --> 01:20:32.895
And before you know it, you, you
have kind of a way in with the cat

01:20:32.895 --> 01:20:36.615
kid rather than standing there and
waiting for them to come shake your

01:20:36.615 --> 01:20:37.935
hand, which is not gonna happen.

01:20:38.475 --> 01:20:40.185
Rupert Isaacson: Or
plunking them on a horse

01:20:40.485 --> 01:20:40.845
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:20:41.085 --> 01:20:43.425
Rupert Isaacson: At the start
of the session and, yeah.

01:20:43.425 --> 01:20:43.435
Yeah.

01:20:43.435 --> 01:20:43.445
Yeah.

01:20:43.795 --> 01:20:46.735
And I like that you, you, you
said your sessions are generally

01:20:46.735 --> 01:20:47.755
about an hour and a half.

01:20:47.785 --> 01:20:52.685
I I find that the concept of the hour
long session, unless you already have Yes.

01:20:52.685 --> 01:20:52.695
It's

01:20:52.695 --> 01:20:52.970
short.

01:20:53.040 --> 01:20:53.330
Yeah.

01:20:53.335 --> 01:20:53.695
Yeah.

01:20:53.995 --> 01:20:56.575
I mean, if you have a lot of good
relationship already with that

01:20:56.575 --> 01:21:00.535
person, you can do something in
an hour, but often yeah, it takes

01:21:00.715 --> 01:21:05.575
people quite a long time just to
reintegrate into the new environment.

01:21:05.695 --> 01:21:06.055
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.

01:21:06.895 --> 01:21:08.155
Rupert Isaacson: Even if
they come quite regularly.

01:21:08.425 --> 01:21:08.575
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:21:08.575 --> 01:21:10.765
I find like half an hour to just arrive.

01:21:11.785 --> 01:21:12.175
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:21:12.295 --> 01:21:15.535
Katja Mehlhorn: And of course you
might do stuff already, but after

01:21:15.655 --> 01:21:18.745
half an hour or so, usually I'm
like, okay, now, now you really are

01:21:18.745 --> 01:21:21.775
here and, and we can start doing

01:21:21.955 --> 01:21:22.585
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

01:21:22.915 --> 01:21:23.185
Katja Mehlhorn: Real work.

01:21:24.145 --> 01:21:27.775
Rupert Isaacson: Back, back to your
own helpers when you're training them.

01:21:28.195 --> 01:21:30.355
This curiosity piece of, of the research.

01:21:30.385 --> 01:21:35.005
I I, I just want to stay on that for a
couple more minutes because I do think

01:21:35.005 --> 01:21:38.215
it's under, it's not looked at enough.

01:21:38.575 --> 01:21:42.115
Will you, do you actually
explicitly tell people, look, this

01:21:42.115 --> 01:21:43.750
kid's interested in this thing.

01:21:44.875 --> 01:21:50.995
Go on YouTube, go on Wikipedia and find
out some things about this thing so that

01:21:50.995 --> 01:21:52.825
you can talk to this kid about this thing.

01:21:53.035 --> 01:21:54.655
Do you kind of guide them that?

01:21:54.745 --> 01:21:58.105
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, sometimes depending
on the kid, because I also have quite

01:21:58.105 --> 01:22:00.835
some kids who really come because
they're interested in the horses.

01:22:00.865 --> 01:22:03.715
So then it's easy of
course for the helpers.

01:22:03.930 --> 01:22:04.210
Yeah.

01:22:04.685 --> 01:22:09.905
But yeah, sometimes, and especially
the boys, usually in my experience,

01:22:09.905 --> 01:22:12.665
the girls who come mainly come
here because of the horses.

01:22:13.025 --> 01:22:13.355
Yeah.

01:22:13.355 --> 01:22:17.495
And then the boys come because their
parents are hopelessly overloaded

01:22:17.495 --> 01:22:19.505
and try everything and nothing works.

01:22:19.505 --> 01:22:21.335
And then they thought,
let's try this horse thing.

01:22:21.905 --> 01:22:27.365
And the horse is not the first thing
that the boy cares about, but they, yeah.

01:22:27.365 --> 01:22:30.605
If, if they stay, they usually
also end up liking the horse part.

01:22:31.715 --> 01:22:32.195
Rupert Isaacson: It's hard
not to, even if the horse

01:22:32.195 --> 01:22:33.545
Katja Mehlhorn: has to
be a Formula One car.

01:22:33.635 --> 01:22:33.875
Yeah,

01:22:34.415 --> 01:22:34.775
Rupert Isaacson: exactly.

01:22:35.015 --> 01:22:40.325
Have you seen some boys actually sort
of transform, transform a little bit

01:22:40.325 --> 01:22:42.410
into horseman through your program?

01:22:44.810 --> 01:22:46.250
Katja Mehlhorn: Hmm, good question.

01:22:48.710 --> 01:22:52.280
I haven't had boys that
stayed that long term.

01:22:52.430 --> 01:22:56.030
Like I have girls that I've been
working with like for 10 years now.

01:22:56.300 --> 01:22:56.630
Yeah.

01:22:57.050 --> 01:23:00.560
Don't have, so the boys
on average stop earlier.

01:23:01.010 --> 01:23:02.810
Rupert Isaacson: I have a
theory about why that is, but I

01:23:02.810 --> 01:23:04.310
won't see if you agree with it.

01:23:04.970 --> 01:23:09.170
I think that the way this isn't just
in the equine assisted world, I think

01:23:09.170 --> 01:23:14.010
this is in riding in general it's
presented in the wrong way to boys.

01:23:14.340 --> 01:23:19.440
It's usually presented in a way,
in a very feminine based way.

01:23:20.260 --> 01:23:27.310
And what I mean by that is the feminine
mind when it comes to riding seems

01:23:27.310 --> 01:23:32.020
to accept quite well from the get go,
a certain very structured approach

01:23:32.440 --> 01:23:34.240
and a certain attention to detail.

01:23:35.030 --> 01:23:36.505
So the idea of sort of lessons.

01:23:37.910 --> 01:23:39.680
Can be accepted quite early.

01:23:41.360 --> 01:23:46.830
And I feel that with boys, I have to
do a different approach because I've

01:23:46.830 --> 01:23:50.610
had a lot of boys stay in my program,
but what I do is I give them, just like

01:23:50.610 --> 01:23:55.290
you're talking about with the Formula one
experiences on horseback, which are fun

01:23:55.770 --> 01:23:55.920
mm-hmm.

01:23:56.310 --> 01:24:05.640
But require no knowledge of, or
even control of the horse, but

01:24:05.640 --> 01:24:08.220
we are doing something, we're
gonna hit that thing or hit that

01:24:08.220 --> 01:24:09.810
person from the horse or whatever.

01:24:09.990 --> 01:24:10.110
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:24:10.110 --> 01:24:12.540
I, that, that totally fits my experience.

01:24:12.540 --> 01:24:12.780
Yeah.

01:24:12.785 --> 01:24:13.065
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:24:13.285 --> 01:24:13.605
And then yeah, boys,

01:24:14.070 --> 01:24:16.350
Katja Mehlhorn: I have to put more
effort into entertaining them.

01:24:16.680 --> 01:24:17.460
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:24:17.520 --> 01:24:18.060
Exactly.

01:24:18.570 --> 01:24:25.280
But then if one does, then to get them
to stick with the horses I find there's

01:24:25.280 --> 01:24:27.620
got to be a big adrenaline component.

01:24:27.980 --> 01:24:28.070
Mm-hmm.

01:24:28.310 --> 01:24:28.320
Mm-hmm.

01:24:28.520 --> 01:24:30.440
In general, I'm not, I mean,
obviously there's boys who.

01:24:30.875 --> 01:24:31.805
Don't fit that.

01:24:32.255 --> 01:24:37.955
But so where I was lucky, you know, I
grew up in this hunting, jumping, cross

01:24:37.955 --> 01:24:45.035
country, amateur racing culture in the
east of England, which it's really high

01:24:45.035 --> 01:24:47.825
adrenaline, so a lot of boys stay with it.

01:24:48.095 --> 01:24:53.235
And you look at cowboying which is
also kind of really interesting,

01:24:53.235 --> 01:24:57.975
multifaceted boys tend to stay
in that down here in Spain.

01:24:58.665 --> 01:25:01.695
I'd say the majority of the
local boys in this area ride.

01:25:01.995 --> 01:25:02.085
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.

01:25:02.325 --> 01:25:05.925
Rupert Isaacson: Because it's doma,
Vara, they're working the cows.

01:25:06.105 --> 01:25:06.975
They go hunting.

01:25:06.975 --> 01:25:07.035
Yeah.

01:25:07.335 --> 01:25:11.445
It's, it's, it's not
just riding in a ring.

01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:15.570
You know, and learning how to do a
shoulder in, but then what I find

01:25:15.570 --> 01:25:21.120
is that when they've had their
adrenaline fix enough, then they kind

01:25:21.120 --> 01:25:23.130
of want to learn how to do it better.

01:25:23.610 --> 01:25:28.290
And then that's when you can say to them
sort of somewhere around mid adolescence,

01:25:28.470 --> 01:25:32.190
well, all that stuff that are boring
stuff those girls have been doing

01:25:32.190 --> 01:25:36.090
since they were seven years old, that
actually is going to improve your game.

01:25:36.420 --> 01:25:36.750
Yeah.

01:25:36.750 --> 01:25:38.610
And at that point, they're like, oh, okay.

01:25:39.150 --> 01:25:43.890
But it's really difficult within
the sort of modern riding thing.

01:25:43.890 --> 01:25:47.310
And then if you add to that, the
peer pressure that boys go under

01:25:47.430 --> 01:25:49.170
when they're at school to not ride.

01:25:49.470 --> 01:25:49.650
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:25:49.765 --> 01:25:50.790
' Rupert Isaacson: cause it's a girl thing.

01:25:51.030 --> 01:25:51.965
Katja Mehlhorn: It's so,

01:25:52.235 --> 01:25:52.525
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:25:52.555 --> 01:25:52.845
It's

01:25:52.850 --> 01:25:55.230
Katja Mehlhorn: something that we,
we are on this bike path, right?

01:25:55.230 --> 01:25:59.160
So our outdoor arena is right
at this bike path that lots

01:25:59.160 --> 01:26:02.250
of locals take to school and.

01:26:02.835 --> 01:26:07.155
Almost every day, there is teenage
boys who have to shout something to the

01:26:07.155 --> 01:26:09.855
horses, like, horse riding is not sport.

01:26:09.855 --> 01:26:11.925
Something about horses being eaten.

01:26:12.795 --> 01:26:12.945
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, really?

01:26:13.065 --> 01:26:16.395
Katja Mehlhorn: There must be such a
fascination from the horses that they

01:26:16.395 --> 01:26:18.435
feel drawn to do this every time.

01:26:18.435 --> 01:26:19.545
Even we don't react.

01:26:19.545 --> 01:26:24.255
I mean, they don't get anything out
of it as far as I see, but they just,

01:26:24.765 --> 01:26:27.435
yeah, there's always boys who have
to do that much more than girls.

01:26:27.435 --> 01:26:27.585
That

01:26:27.585 --> 01:26:29.385
Rupert Isaacson: means that deep
down, they actually want it.

01:26:29.625 --> 01:26:29.835
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:26:29.865 --> 01:26:30.735
That's my theory.

01:26:30.735 --> 01:26:33.410
But obviously they would
probably disagree if I say that.

01:26:33.830 --> 01:26:34.250
Rupert Isaacson: No doubt.

01:26:34.390 --> 01:26:38.575
But I, I just remember myself at
school, like, all the negative peer

01:26:38.575 --> 01:26:40.765
pressure I got because I was riding.

01:26:40.885 --> 01:26:41.005
Mm-hmm.

01:26:41.665 --> 01:26:43.825
Oh, you're a girl, you're
gay, you're this, you're that.

01:26:44.005 --> 01:26:47.495
And I had to withstand all
of that including physical

01:26:47.495 --> 01:26:48.995
fights sometimes around it.

01:26:49.505 --> 01:26:55.535
And then I would find myself in
a largely female world, which

01:26:55.625 --> 01:26:57.245
in late childhood, early a.

01:27:00.935 --> 01:27:01.475
This is not

01:27:01.475 --> 01:27:09.005
much fun and deal with the exclusivity of,
you know, c clique-ish adolescent girls.

01:27:09.005 --> 01:27:11.855
Also giving me a lot of negative
feedback for being the only boy.

01:27:11.855 --> 01:27:11.975
Mm-hmm.

01:27:12.215 --> 01:27:16.265
And I had to withstand both of
those things in order to just

01:27:16.265 --> 01:27:17.375
do the thing that I loved.

01:27:17.375 --> 01:27:21.275
And if I hadn't been really
motivated, like I was, I don't

01:27:21.275 --> 01:27:22.355
think I would've stuck with it.

01:27:22.505 --> 01:27:24.275
The, the peer pressure
would've been too much.

01:27:24.455 --> 01:27:29.045
And also the negative pressure from the
girls wanting, not wanting to see boys.

01:27:29.615 --> 01:27:31.025
Katja Mehlhorn: Is it also
something about role models?

01:27:31.895 --> 01:27:32.735
Rupert Isaacson: I think so.

01:27:33.275 --> 01:27:39.785
So again, this is something I think can be
really good with somebody like you is one

01:27:39.785 --> 01:27:44.275
things I'm very grateful to grow, having
grown up male is that I had all these

01:27:44.275 --> 01:27:48.055
really strong female role models growing
up because I did grow up around horses.

01:27:48.265 --> 01:27:53.615
Therefore, there were all these
strong female leaders because that's.

01:27:54.200 --> 01:27:57.620
As we know, the horsey ladies
have that leadership thing.

01:27:58.640 --> 01:28:05.060
That meant that later in life when I was
coming to the professional world, having

01:28:05.060 --> 01:28:09.260
women bosses, having women colleagues,
it was never a thing for me at all.

01:28:09.260 --> 01:28:12.620
I was just like, well, of course, because
I've just been surrounded by, I, I will

01:28:12.620 --> 01:28:16.790
take absolutely orders from a woman
because she knows what she's doing.

01:28:16.820 --> 01:28:18.440
You Yeah, yeah, of course
you're going to do that.

01:28:18.850 --> 01:28:20.770
Whereas I saw other
men struggle with that.

01:28:21.100 --> 01:28:24.250
And at the same time, I was lucky I
had some good male role models Yeah.

01:28:24.350 --> 01:28:26.120
In that world who could,

01:28:28.735 --> 01:28:34.580
you know, give me a bit of backup and
reassurance when I was feeling bad from

01:28:34.610 --> 01:28:39.920
either the rejection of the, of the girl
clique or the rejection of the boy clique.

01:28:40.550 --> 01:28:42.380
But we don't make it interesting for boys.

01:28:42.410 --> 01:28:45.770
You know, the, so one of the
things I find works really well

01:28:45.770 --> 01:28:47.090
is doing the medieval games.

01:28:47.435 --> 01:28:50.375
Have them work, the lance, have them
work the sword, have a quintain,

01:28:50.375 --> 01:28:53.405
you can j stat, that sort of thing,
have something you can whack.

01:28:54.065 --> 01:28:55.415
These types of things.

01:28:56.495 --> 01:29:00.095
Then they can go back to their
male friends and say, I hit people

01:29:00.485 --> 01:29:02.225
on horseback with this thing.

01:29:02.285 --> 01:29:02.525
Yeah.

01:29:02.735 --> 01:29:04.025
Then suddenly it's cool.

01:29:04.815 --> 01:29:06.825
But I do think that there
is a deep seated, actually

01:29:06.825 --> 01:29:08.265
longing for horses within boys.

01:29:08.265 --> 01:29:09.555
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.

01:29:09.570 --> 01:29:14.415
I, I saw a book, it was a Facebook, so
I would have to double check, but the,

01:29:14.415 --> 01:29:17.925
a book about horse genetics that just
came out and I don't remember the name.

01:29:18.885 --> 01:29:18.915
Okay.

01:29:18.915 --> 01:29:21.855
Like thousand years of something.

01:29:21.855 --> 01:29:27.445
And they argued according to the
Facebook post, so careful that there

01:29:27.445 --> 01:29:36.745
was some genetic selection also
in horses and human co evolvement.

01:29:36.750 --> 01:29:38.275
I'm, I'm not sure exactly what.

01:29:38.815 --> 01:29:39.685
How they stated it.

01:29:39.685 --> 01:29:42.445
But basically, so they said there
is a genetic component like that.

01:29:42.445 --> 01:29:46.105
There are some people who just
are really drawn to horses.

01:29:46.615 --> 01:29:48.265
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just doing,
I'm looking it up right now.

01:29:48.265 --> 01:29:51.175
Gen genetic component for what?

01:29:51.175 --> 01:29:53.095
Horse people?

01:29:53.365 --> 01:29:53.905
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:29:54.295 --> 01:29:55.585
That some people are just

01:29:55.915 --> 01:29:56.005
Rupert Isaacson: look

01:29:56.395 --> 01:30:01.015
Katja Mehlhorn: more into horses,
but da should have written it down.

01:30:01.495 --> 01:30:03.325
Rupert Isaacson: It's
all there in the genes.

01:30:03.385 --> 01:30:09.385
Horses, traits, inheritability,
people in horses have, ooh,

01:30:11.605 --> 01:30:11.965
hold on.

01:30:13.315 --> 01:30:14.370
Well maybe I should put book.

01:30:14.510 --> 01:30:15.290
You said it was a book?

01:30:15.680 --> 01:30:19.465
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, it was a book
by the genetics of horses in general.

01:30:19.465 --> 01:30:20.345
So apparently there was some

01:30:20.345 --> 01:30:20.850
Rupert Isaacson: genetics of horses,

01:30:21.505 --> 01:30:23.665
Katja Mehlhorn: some mutation that

01:30:23.755 --> 01:30:23.995
Rupert Isaacson: yes

01:30:24.415 --> 01:30:26.845
Katja Mehlhorn: to the
domestication or was related

01:30:26.845 --> 01:30:28.465
to the domestication of horses.

01:30:29.995 --> 01:30:30.955
Rupert Isaacson: I've got this thing.

01:30:30.955 --> 01:30:31.975
I'm Googling of course.

01:30:33.085 --> 01:30:33.985
The horse.com.

01:30:34.015 --> 01:30:35.485
What a great name for a website.

01:30:35.485 --> 01:30:36.355
Why didn't I think of that?

01:30:36.805 --> 01:30:39.895
It's all in the genes, horse
traits and her heritability.

01:30:39.895 --> 01:30:41.155
Let's just have a quick look at this.

01:30:41.885 --> 01:30:46.595
Ba ba scientists are continuing to
uncover which genes are responsible

01:30:46.745 --> 01:30:48.755
for certain traits in horses.

01:30:49.535 --> 01:30:50.285
Okay?

01:30:50.495 --> 01:30:55.505
Why are you drawn to a horse, a flashy
coat color, a puppy dog personality,

01:30:55.505 --> 01:30:58.895
smooth as molasses gates where your
dream horse didn't come by these trades

01:30:58.895 --> 01:31:01.925
by a happenstance, blah, blah, blah.

01:31:04.355 --> 01:31:07.835
But this is more about
what makes different horses

01:31:08.915 --> 01:31:09.425
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:31:09.905 --> 01:31:12.415
Rupert Isaacson: In their genetic I'm
just intrigued by that because mm-hmm.

01:31:12.655 --> 01:31:19.105
I think your point about the boys
shouting insults as they go by means

01:31:19.105 --> 01:31:22.345
that they're noticing the horse
and they feel that they have to

01:31:22.615 --> 01:31:22.915
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:31:23.485 --> 01:31:27.595
Rupert Isaacson: React and respond
in the same way that, you know, boys.

01:31:27.985 --> 01:31:33.085
Might do that to girls, you know, and
shout something, which means that they're

01:31:33.085 --> 01:31:37.975
attracted to the girls because otherwise
they wouldn't feel some desire to

01:31:38.305 --> 01:31:39.295
Katja Mehlhorn: exactly say something,

01:31:39.925 --> 01:31:41.965
Rupert Isaacson: even if
it's not a helpful thing.

01:31:42.415 --> 01:31:48.505
But I sort of agree with you
that we've, we've got we've got

01:31:51.085 --> 01:31:58.225
a heritage of what, 4,000
years minimum of domestication.

01:31:58.675 --> 01:32:01.075
But before that we hunted horses a lot.

01:32:01.585 --> 01:32:05.215
So we must have had a real draw.

01:32:05.245 --> 01:32:11.095
Like if you go to the cave paintings,
those 30,000 year old cave paintings

01:32:11.095 --> 01:32:16.705
in southern France, like Chauvet and
Lasko, or in northern Spain, Alta Alta

01:32:16.705 --> 01:32:22.465
Mirror and those other ones, there's a
real preponderance of horses painted.

01:32:22.840 --> 01:32:26.410
On the wall and these people were hunting
them, but they also seemed to have used

01:32:26.410 --> 01:32:29.920
them very much in kind of magic and ritual
because they seem to tra there's a lot

01:32:29.920 --> 01:32:34.270
of transference of horse to human and
that sort of thing in that shamanic way.

01:32:34.630 --> 01:32:39.610
So if horses were like something that
we really relied upon for hunting,

01:32:39.610 --> 01:32:45.070
perhaps because they were large,
perhaps because they could feed a

01:32:45.070 --> 01:32:47.920
lot of, okay, wild cows, bison, yes.

01:32:47.920 --> 01:32:49.720
But maybe bison are
more dangerous to hunt.

01:32:49.780 --> 01:32:50.260
I don't know.

01:32:50.260 --> 01:32:50.800
I don't know.

01:32:51.070 --> 01:32:53.800
But clearly we've been drawn to
them an awful long time, long

01:32:53.800 --> 01:32:55.150
before we started riding them.

01:32:55.150 --> 01:32:55.240
Mm-hmm.

01:32:55.480 --> 01:32:58.630
And so that, there must have been
people who then became like the

01:32:58.630 --> 01:33:01.150
horse hunters or the horse shaman.

01:33:02.020 --> 01:33:05.710
And then you add then the
riding cultures coming in.

01:33:06.340 --> 01:33:09.820
Thousands of people, millions of
people sweeping across the steps

01:33:10.240 --> 01:33:15.790
into, from the yamaya to the, you
know, the early bronze age to getting

01:33:15.790 --> 01:33:17.530
up to the huns and the goths and.

01:33:18.295 --> 01:33:20.095
You know, you, you look a bit goth to me.

01:33:20.365 --> 01:33:20.815
You know?

01:33:20.895 --> 01:33:23.595
You're there come, you're from that
area in eastern, eastern Germany.

01:33:23.805 --> 01:33:26.295
I've for sure got some
of that goth blood in me.

01:33:26.835 --> 01:33:27.915
How could we not?

01:33:28.065 --> 01:33:31.245
And course the Netherlands, as you
know, up until very recently, was a

01:33:31.245 --> 01:33:36.675
very widespread equestrian culture
just in terms of agriculture as well.

01:33:36.675 --> 01:33:36.765
Mm-hmm.

01:33:37.755 --> 01:33:42.915
Those kids who are cycling
by surely carry a genetic.

01:33:42.915 --> 01:33:43.425
Yeah.

01:33:43.995 --> 01:33:53.775
I wonder, it makes me wonder what
one could do to harness that.

01:33:55.005 --> 01:33:58.875
Like, even if it's just a, even if it's
just a conversation between you and the

01:33:58.875 --> 01:34:04.125
client who's working with the horse as
you're that, as that boy goes by, do you,

01:34:04.185 --> 01:34:09.645
do you talk to your clients and say, why
do you think that boy feels the need to.

01:34:10.140 --> 01:34:11.580
React and respond to the horse.

01:34:11.580 --> 01:34:13.320
Do you think he's secretly
longing for the horse?

01:34:13.530 --> 01:34:14.655
Like do you have that
kind of conversation?

01:34:14.655 --> 01:34:14.880
Yeah, think

01:34:14.880 --> 01:34:15.630
Katja Mehlhorn: we certainly do.

01:34:15.630 --> 01:34:15.930
Yeah.

01:34:15.960 --> 01:34:16.350
Yeah.

01:34:16.590 --> 01:34:19.230
So that, that indeed that, that,
that was a conclusion that also

01:34:19.230 --> 01:34:20.670
came out of those discussions.

01:34:20.670 --> 01:34:25.710
Like, yeah, they probably secretly,
they wanna actually be in here with us

01:34:27.075 --> 01:34:30.405
Rupert Isaacson: and because that's,
that's, that's such a portal to looking

01:34:30.405 --> 01:34:36.315
at human behavior and ambiguity and
ambivalence and how people say one

01:34:36.315 --> 01:34:38.235
thing and mean another and Yeah.

01:34:38.385 --> 01:34:40.635
Do, do, do those conversations
then go from that point?

01:34:42.730 --> 01:34:45.615
Katja Mehlhorn: Ah, so many
of them I am Sometimes, yeah.

01:34:46.185 --> 01:34:46.545
Yeah.

01:34:46.575 --> 01:34:51.975
Sometimes it goes directly to the
annoying big brother or, so there

01:34:51.980 --> 01:34:57.075
is that which opens other, like,
things that you can talk about,

01:35:00.435 --> 01:35:01.935
Rupert Isaacson: genetic
component for horse people.

01:35:01.935 --> 01:35:02.565
Test results.

01:35:02.565 --> 01:35:04.035
I'm, now, I'm getting a bit,

01:35:04.245 --> 01:35:05.655
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I'll,
I'll look up the book.

01:35:05.655 --> 01:35:07.635
I'll send you the name once I find it.

01:35:09.105 --> 01:35:09.555
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:35:10.065 --> 01:35:12.885
Katja Mehlhorn: Because I always
think like, as long as I can think

01:35:12.885 --> 01:35:15.615
I love horses, even though I'm
totally not from a horse family,

01:35:15.615 --> 01:35:17.415
like, what, what is this thing?

01:35:18.465 --> 01:35:21.495
And I live on my farm with my own
horses and I go on vacation and

01:35:21.495 --> 01:35:24.435
the first thing I do is look where
are there horses that I can look?

01:35:24.585 --> 01:35:27.735
I mean, how crazy is that?

01:35:28.515 --> 01:35:31.125
So what, what makes that urge so big?

01:35:31.125 --> 01:35:31.455
Yeah.

01:35:32.385 --> 01:35:34.725
Rupert Isaacson: Your husband is not
a horse person particularly, right?

01:35:34.730 --> 01:35:34.950
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:35:34.960 --> 01:35:35.630
Weird, right?

01:35:35.865 --> 01:35:37.365
Rupert Isaacson: What does,
but he's a brain person.

01:35:37.365 --> 01:35:39.945
I know that we, we are gonna
have him hopefully on the

01:35:40.245 --> 01:35:42.210
live free, ride free podcast.

01:35:42.510 --> 01:35:45.090
What does he make of your horse success?

01:35:45.090 --> 01:35:45.420
Brain.

01:35:46.740 --> 01:35:47.460
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.

01:35:47.460 --> 01:35:48.480
Very interesting.

01:35:48.480 --> 01:35:51.510
So I think he was the first
one who really took it serious.

01:35:51.900 --> 01:35:55.680
I remember one of our first dates, we
were sitting in a cafe and I was kind

01:35:55.680 --> 01:35:59.730
of rambling off about the horse I was
working with at the moment, and he

01:35:59.730 --> 01:36:01.350
just looked at me fascinated and he.

01:36:01.995 --> 01:36:03.945
Wow, your eyes are sparkling.

01:36:03.945 --> 01:36:06.375
You are shining when you
talk about this horse.

01:36:06.465 --> 01:36:06.765
Wow.

01:36:06.765 --> 01:36:07.935
You really love horses.

01:36:07.935 --> 01:36:09.045
And I thought like, wow.

01:36:09.045 --> 01:36:12.945
No, like everyone always just
like, was like, yeah, she's talking

01:36:12.945 --> 01:36:14.295
about her horses again, blah.

01:36:14.355 --> 01:36:16.155
And he just took it serious.

01:36:16.155 --> 01:36:18.615
So that, that was really cool.

01:36:19.675 --> 01:36:19.915
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:36:20.065 --> 01:36:25.325
No note to all blokes out there on dates
for Coursey girls react positively.

01:36:27.995 --> 01:36:28.055
Yeah.

01:36:28.055 --> 01:36:29.585
Does he, what does he make of it now?

01:36:29.635 --> 01:36:32.065
That because, you know, he's had
to make big lifestyle changes

01:36:32.065 --> 01:36:33.085
and move out to the country.

01:36:33.090 --> 01:36:33.415
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, yeah.

01:36:33.415 --> 01:36:35.815
He lives on a farm for this.

01:36:35.815 --> 01:36:36.175
Yeah.

01:36:36.745 --> 01:36:40.705
I, I always secretly was kind of
hoping that the, the virus would like.

01:36:41.320 --> 01:36:44.290
Kick in on him, which hasn't,
which I totally can't understand.

01:36:45.010 --> 01:36:49.750
I mean, he, he, he's fine now with
caring for them and getting, moving

01:36:49.750 --> 01:36:53.620
them, and secretly he apparently also
talks to them when I'm not there.

01:36:53.620 --> 01:36:54.010
I heard, I

01:36:54.375 --> 01:36:55.035
Rupert Isaacson: bet he does,

01:36:55.455 --> 01:36:59.650
Katja Mehlhorn: but he just doesn't have
to drive to really do something with them.

01:37:00.190 --> 01:37:04.540
But he is, I think he's happy that,
that I have that as, as a passion.

01:37:05.410 --> 01:37:06.400
And does he runner?

01:37:06.400 --> 01:37:08.110
So for him, running is his big passion.

01:37:08.110 --> 01:37:11.980
So it's good if you both have your
own thing, because otherwise I

01:37:11.980 --> 01:37:15.280
think you get in this situation that
the one gets jealous of the hobby.

01:37:16.060 --> 01:37:17.200
Well, but yes.

01:37:17.500 --> 01:37:17.650
Rupert Isaacson: Own

01:37:17.650 --> 01:37:20.020
Katja Mehlhorn: hobby
in my case of the Yeah.

01:37:20.350 --> 01:37:21.490
Rupert Isaacson: I don't
think we can say it's a hobby.

01:37:21.490 --> 01:37:22.750
I think we can say it's a culture.

01:37:22.755 --> 01:37:22.835
Yeah.

01:37:22.960 --> 01:37:23.080
Yeah.

01:37:23.230 --> 01:37:26.500
But yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting
and I bet you your horses actually do

01:37:26.500 --> 01:37:30.400
their own diplomatic charm offensive
on him when you're not looking.

01:37:30.880 --> 01:37:32.350
Because it's interesting.

01:37:32.350 --> 01:37:36.070
He must find it also to some
degree, peaceful and fulfilling

01:37:36.310 --> 01:37:36.460
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.

01:37:36.790 --> 01:37:38.650
Rupert Isaacson: To live
this life on this farm.

01:37:39.175 --> 01:37:41.125
And find his own place within it.

01:37:41.665 --> 01:37:41.935
Yeah.

01:37:41.940 --> 01:37:42.090
Yeah.

01:37:43.315 --> 01:37:47.035
That in itself is probably worth picking
apart at some later date in terms of

01:37:47.035 --> 01:37:50.545
its therapeutic aspects, in terms of,
you know, the pressures he might be

01:37:50.545 --> 01:37:52.765
under at work and that sort of thing.

01:37:53.005 --> 01:37:57.135
Maybe I'll, I'll talk to him
about this and we do the podcast.

01:37:57.465 --> 01:37:57.945
All right.

01:37:57.945 --> 01:38:01.665
Finally, he's a good segue
actually into your other world.

01:38:01.665 --> 01:38:04.005
So you are still teaching
at the university.

01:38:04.065 --> 01:38:04.155
Mm-hmm.

01:38:04.455 --> 01:38:07.615
And you teach ai or at
least you teach about ai.

01:38:07.675 --> 01:38:13.165
But as you said to me before we hit
record on this, you help actually

01:38:13.225 --> 01:38:18.595
students who are studying AI learn to
actually old school styley, dinosaur

01:38:18.625 --> 01:38:24.725
styley actually research so that they
don't end up falling into the obvious,

01:38:24.785 --> 01:38:26.315
you know, traps and rabbit holes.

01:38:26.885 --> 01:38:28.835
That AI can do.

01:38:28.985 --> 01:38:30.605
And we know that AI makes things up.

01:38:30.605 --> 01:38:32.895
And my dad did a really funny experiment.

01:38:32.895 --> 01:38:34.125
My dad's Zimbabwean.

01:38:34.515 --> 01:38:34.695
Mm-hmm.

01:38:34.935 --> 01:38:37.815
And the main tribe in
Zimbabwe is the Shauna.

01:38:38.355 --> 01:38:45.795
And so he challenged AI to chat GPT to
give him an essay on the influence of

01:38:45.795 --> 01:38:51.255
Chaa, the 14th century English writer Cho
Jeffrey Chaa, who wrote the Canterbury

01:38:51.255 --> 01:38:55.525
Tales on Ana medieval literature.

01:38:55.945 --> 01:38:57.475
And it gave him this whole thing.

01:38:57.685 --> 01:39:03.175
Well, there wasn't any macuna literature
influenced by Chauser, that's for sure.

01:39:03.535 --> 01:39:04.685
And it didn't matter.

01:39:04.685 --> 01:39:07.455
Chat, GPT produced him a whole thesis.

01:39:07.455 --> 01:39:07.545
Yep.

01:39:08.325 --> 01:39:13.725
So how do you find that your
horse practice in your equine

01:39:13.725 --> 01:39:19.665
assisted practice and this academic
helping people to still uncover.

01:39:20.655 --> 01:39:23.565
As close to the truth as they
can, you know, in research

01:39:24.045 --> 01:39:24.975
there's an interplay there.

01:39:24.975 --> 01:39:25.935
Talk to us about that.

01:39:26.835 --> 01:39:27.585
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, that's funny.

01:39:27.585 --> 01:39:31.245
Like often people hear that I'm
doing those two things and they're

01:39:31.245 --> 01:39:32.355
like, oh, that's so different.

01:39:32.360 --> 01:39:35.055
They're like, yeah, but it's not
really that different because in,

01:39:35.055 --> 01:39:40.515
in both cases, I teach people and I
kind of have to figure out what they

01:39:40.515 --> 01:39:43.665
know and what they are interested
in and, and take them from there.

01:39:43.725 --> 01:39:46.965
And of course, the content you're
teaching is largely different.

01:39:47.815 --> 01:39:51.745
But the, the, the process of
kind of tuning in on, on the

01:39:51.745 --> 01:39:57.175
learner and then helping them
grow is actually really similar.

01:39:58.645 --> 01:39:59.965
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:40:00.745 --> 01:40:06.985
I would also posit surely that
when you are working with horses

01:40:06.985 --> 01:40:10.615
professionally, you have to
continually develop yourself, right?

01:40:10.620 --> 01:40:10.890
Mm-hmm.

01:40:10.970 --> 01:40:12.280
Like you said earlier okay.

01:40:13.555 --> 01:40:17.995
At an earlier point in your life, you'd
have rejected my whole dressy thing.

01:40:18.545 --> 01:40:21.155
But then you get to a certain point
where you realize, well, I'm actually

01:40:21.155 --> 01:40:25.775
a bit limited with my horses, how
I, I must now look for other things.

01:40:25.835 --> 01:40:25.925
Mm-hmm.

01:40:26.165 --> 01:40:29.945
Maybe rupert's dressy thing is
actually worth looking at alongside,

01:40:29.945 --> 01:40:30.965
you know, 20 other things.

01:40:30.965 --> 01:40:33.425
I must keep expanding my practice.

01:40:33.425 --> 01:40:38.705
I must keep expanding my did you
notice a, an interplay yourself between

01:40:38.975 --> 01:40:44.825
cultivating that kind of curiosity and
research, having to help people do that?

01:40:45.155 --> 01:40:45.245
Mm-hmm.

01:40:45.485 --> 01:40:45.755
And

01:40:45.965 --> 01:40:50.795
keeping your own equine assisted
practice growing and not stagnating

01:40:51.425 --> 01:40:54.515
rather than just saying, okay, I'll
do my horse thing over here and I

01:40:54.515 --> 01:40:57.545
do it like this, and that's how I
do it, and I just die on that hill.

01:40:58.295 --> 01:41:01.385
But over here I'm like
the big curiosity person.

01:41:01.385 --> 01:41:01.985
You know what I mean?

01:41:02.045 --> 01:41:02.165
Yeah.

01:41:02.240 --> 01:41:05.585
Katja Mehlhorn: So, so again, I,
I am just a very curious person.

01:41:05.855 --> 01:41:06.005
Yeah.

01:41:06.010 --> 01:41:09.155
And, and that, that works for, with
the clients, but that also works

01:41:09.155 --> 01:41:10.925
for like with, with the horses.

01:41:11.480 --> 01:41:13.370
Sometimes I find a bit annoying of myself.

01:41:13.370 --> 01:41:16.160
Like whenever I learn something,
my first thought is like, okay,

01:41:16.160 --> 01:41:17.570
what else can you do with, with it?

01:41:17.570 --> 01:41:21.320
Or, so, so I'm very bad at sticking
to a system and just doing that.

01:41:21.320 --> 01:41:26.690
I always wanna know more and
secretly think I can do better, so

01:41:27.050 --> 01:41:29.570
that, that, that helped definitely.

01:41:30.290 --> 01:41:34.430
And, and I guess that is also what you
need in science to, to be curious and

01:41:34.430 --> 01:41:35.870
see, okay, what, what else is there?

01:41:35.870 --> 01:41:39.260
Because yeah, we know a lot, but
there's a lot more that we don't know.

01:41:39.260 --> 01:41:40.220
So yeah.

01:41:40.280 --> 01:41:41.750
How can we get there?

01:41:42.530 --> 01:41:45.710
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you have any
of your academic students come out to

01:41:45.710 --> 01:41:48.770
the farm and work with the horses at all?

01:41:48.770 --> 01:41:50.900
And if so, yeah.

01:41:50.960 --> 01:41:51.740
How and why?

01:41:54.890 --> 01:41:56.510
Katja Mehlhorn: That's
been a while at the start.

01:41:56.600 --> 01:41:57.380
Yeah.

01:41:58.580 --> 01:42:02.060
Then it was more like, like
colleagues, I guess when you're

01:42:02.060 --> 01:42:03.860
younger, people are more into.

01:42:04.325 --> 01:42:06.035
Experimenting with hobbies or so.

01:42:07.130 --> 01:42:07.350
So

01:42:08.195 --> 01:42:12.545
Rupert Isaacson: what were you, what was
motivating the colleagues to come out and

01:42:12.545 --> 01:42:14.225
check out your equine assisted practice?

01:42:14.225 --> 01:42:17.105
They were coming as clients or they
were coming just to kind of hang

01:42:17.105 --> 01:42:20.045
with a horse and, and see what's
this horse thing that captured us?

01:42:20.050 --> 01:42:20.190
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:42:20.195 --> 01:42:20.615
Yeah.

01:42:20.615 --> 01:42:21.545
Both, both.

01:42:21.545 --> 01:42:26.915
I would, I would say, yeah, but also just
like to, to, to get lessons, for example.

01:42:27.185 --> 01:42:27.635
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:42:27.905 --> 01:42:28.115
Yeah.

01:42:28.655 --> 01:42:31.565
Katja Mehlhorn: And now I'm actually
teaching the kids of my colleagues more.

01:42:33.065 --> 01:42:33.125
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:42:33.125 --> 01:42:33.875
Well, there you go.

01:42:34.355 --> 01:42:37.655
The, I'm just thinking in terms
of the, the students, do you know,

01:42:37.655 --> 01:42:39.515
have you met Amanda Menini, Dr.

01:42:39.515 --> 01:42:40.415
Amanda Menini?

01:42:40.745 --> 01:42:40.805
No.

01:42:40.805 --> 01:42:41.675
She lives in Colorado.

01:42:41.675 --> 01:42:42.785
She's obviously Italian.

01:42:43.205 --> 01:42:46.925
And I work with her periodically.

01:42:47.105 --> 01:42:51.995
She has a, she teaches at Colorado
College in Colorado Springs, and

01:42:51.995 --> 01:42:56.495
she has an equine assisted practice
that's really there to help.

01:42:56.915 --> 01:42:58.835
Address anxiety in the students.

01:42:59.705 --> 01:42:59.735
Mm.

01:42:59.735 --> 01:43:03.815
And she started this it's called Eagle
but it's spelled a different acronym,

01:43:03.815 --> 01:43:06.545
but I'll try to include it in the show
notes or I'll get her on the show.

01:43:07.055 --> 01:43:11.735
She has found it's been
quite an invaluable thing.

01:43:11.735 --> 01:43:11.765
Mm.

01:43:11.825 --> 01:43:17.205
And she gets people to come out to the
farm and helps with anxiety there, but

01:43:17.205 --> 01:43:18.765
she also brings horses onto campus.

01:43:18.915 --> 01:43:19.185
Hmm.

01:43:19.305 --> 01:43:24.075
I'm just wondering if that's a sort of
a, I'm, I'm planting that seed in you.

01:43:24.075 --> 01:43:24.225
Yes.

01:43:24.825 --> 01:43:25.275
Katja Mehlhorn: Interesting.

01:43:25.275 --> 01:43:29.175
Because I, right now I would kind
of almost see a bit of a conflict of

01:43:29.205 --> 01:43:34.065
interest to kind of use my university
connections to get clients for my farm.

01:43:34.125 --> 01:43:35.475
Not that I need clients, but

01:43:35.575 --> 01:43:36.865
Rupert Isaacson: well,
you could do it pro bono.

01:43:36.985 --> 01:43:37.645
You could do it.

01:43:37.915 --> 01:43:38.965
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, you could do that

01:43:39.085 --> 01:43:39.835
Rupert Isaacson: pro bono service.

01:43:39.835 --> 01:43:40.105
Yeah.

01:43:40.140 --> 01:43:40.430
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:43:41.035 --> 01:43:41.215
Yeah.

01:43:41.215 --> 01:43:44.425
But I actually, I, I'm gonna stop
working for the university because the

01:43:44.455 --> 01:43:47.035
farm is just outgrowing me otherwise.

01:43:47.635 --> 01:43:47.725
Okay.

01:43:47.725 --> 01:43:51.505
And I guess then then, then it's not
a conflict of interest anymore to,

01:43:51.955 --> 01:43:53.545
Rupert Isaacson: well, that,
'cause that just seems to me a,

01:43:53.545 --> 01:43:55.135
a such a logical thing to do.

01:43:55.135 --> 01:43:55.225
Yeah.

01:43:55.285 --> 01:43:59.665
Because, you know, I think that
new intake of students post COVID

01:43:59.790 --> 01:44:00.210
mm-hmm.

01:44:00.295 --> 01:44:00.305
Who

01:44:01.255 --> 01:44:05.815
were like high school or middle
school as well, COVID was going on.

01:44:06.025 --> 01:44:06.205
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:44:06.445 --> 01:44:09.205
Rupert Isaacson: Who were the
most, the most impacted by COVID

01:44:09.685 --> 01:44:12.115
seemed to have brought a fragility.

01:44:12.445 --> 01:44:12.535
Mm-hmm.

01:44:13.105 --> 01:44:13.345
You know?

01:44:13.345 --> 01:44:13.525
Totally.

01:44:13.825 --> 01:44:14.095
Yeah.

01:44:14.200 --> 01:44:18.325
And I, I, I can't imagine that your farm.

01:44:18.880 --> 01:44:20.620
Would not help with that.

01:44:20.830 --> 01:44:21.790
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.

01:44:21.791 --> 01:44:21.801
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:44:21.801 --> 01:44:21.970
Yeah.

01:44:21.970 --> 01:44:25.330
Katja Mehlhorn: We, we are seeing, so
I'm responsible for the, the first year

01:44:25.330 --> 01:44:31.870
students at our program, university
program, and we see a lot of, of mental

01:44:31.900 --> 01:44:34.750
challenges and, and mental health issues.

01:44:34.750 --> 01:44:34.990
Yeah.

01:44:34.990 --> 01:44:37.870
That re reason has
increased over the years.

01:44:38.500 --> 01:44:43.480
Also challenges in kind of
work ethic kind of, yeah.

01:44:43.480 --> 01:44:47.740
Why should I go to lectures if I can
study it at home with my own video?

01:44:47.770 --> 01:44:49.660
Which of course then you
don't do, because Yeah.

01:44:49.660 --> 01:44:49.720
Yeah.

01:44:50.620 --> 01:44:52.270
That's how we are as humans.

01:44:52.910 --> 01:44:53.415
So yeah.

01:44:54.920 --> 01:44:58.580
First year students need way more
help with things outside of the

01:44:58.580 --> 01:45:02.000
actual content of the program we
are finding than, than they used to.

01:45:02.360 --> 01:45:02.630
Yeah.

01:45:04.700 --> 01:45:06.380
Rupert Isaacson: Be curious
to see how you Yeah.

01:45:06.410 --> 01:45:07.550
How you develop that.

01:45:07.550 --> 01:45:08.420
Mm-hmm.

01:45:08.421 --> 01:45:10.560
Have a feeling that you will yeah.

01:45:12.095 --> 01:45:12.245
Always.

01:45:13.275 --> 01:45:15.285
Curious in what Catcher Melhorn is up to.

01:45:15.285 --> 01:45:15.645
So,

01:45:15.795 --> 01:45:16.485
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah, me too.

01:45:16.715 --> 01:45:16.755
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:45:19.035 --> 01:45:19.365
Alright.

01:45:19.365 --> 01:45:22.365
Well this has been a
really great conversation.

01:45:22.445 --> 01:45:29.735
I've really enjoyed, I think the, the,
the, this, the theme that seems to run

01:45:29.735 --> 01:45:35.595
through this for me is curiosity and the
importance of staying curious on a really

01:45:35.595 --> 01:45:40.215
active and, and deliberate level like ai.

01:45:40.605 --> 01:45:45.315
Just, just the fact that you said,
I think if, if there's one real good

01:45:45.315 --> 01:45:51.075
takeaway from this conversation for
someone in this feels is yeah, get

01:45:51.075 --> 01:45:57.225
on YouTube and Wikipedia and go and
research the interests of your client,

01:45:57.285 --> 01:46:04.365
especially if you find that actually a
bit boring because that's kind of our

01:46:04.365 --> 01:46:06.465
job and you'd think that that would be.

01:46:08.670 --> 01:46:11.760
Obvious, but it, it is actually
a bit counterintuitive.

01:46:11.765 --> 01:46:18.330
I, I, I love the fact that you brought
this to our attention before we wrap up.

01:46:18.430 --> 01:46:20.140
The first thing is how do people find you?

01:46:20.140 --> 01:46:23.650
I'm sure people will be
seeking mentorship from you.

01:46:24.580 --> 01:46:25.630
And can they do that?

01:46:25.630 --> 01:46:27.910
And then the second thing
is just what's next?

01:46:27.910 --> 01:46:29.230
Where do you want the program to go?

01:46:30.790 --> 01:46:30.910
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:46:30.910 --> 01:46:35.995
So people can find me on my website,
which is just my name, Katya melhorn.nl.

01:46:36.585 --> 01:46:36.875
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:46:37.015 --> 01:46:37.555
Dot nl.

01:46:37.930 --> 01:46:38.020
Yeah.

01:46:38.020 --> 01:46:40.240
Katya with A-J-K-A-T-J-A.

01:46:40.300 --> 01:46:40.995
And Melhorn.

01:46:41.650 --> 01:46:41.830
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:46:41.830 --> 01:46:43.150
Rupert Isaacson: MELH.

01:46:43.330 --> 01:46:47.350
Katja Mehlhorn: M-E-H-L-H-L-M-E-H-H-O-R-N?

01:46:47.500 --> 01:46:48.040
Yes.

01:46:48.100 --> 01:46:53.325
M-E-H-M-E-H-L-M-E-H-L-H-O-N.

01:46:54.550 --> 01:46:58.270
Rupert Isaacson: H-O-R-N-M-E-H-L-H-O-R-N?

01:46:58.420 --> 01:46:58.660
Yes.

01:46:58.810 --> 01:46:58.870
Okay.

01:46:58.870 --> 01:46:59.680
QH as in there.

01:46:59.740 --> 01:47:00.130
All right.

01:47:00.790 --> 01:47:01.150
Yeah.

01:47:01.150 --> 01:47:02.770
So NL.

01:47:03.220 --> 01:47:03.640
Yes.

01:47:03.910 --> 01:47:04.360
Okay.

01:47:04.720 --> 01:47:05.830
Catch ton nl.

01:47:06.310 --> 01:47:10.590
If people want to come check your
program out email, you ask you questions,

01:47:10.830 --> 01:47:13.980
get training from you, get mentorship
from you, can they contact you there?

01:47:14.190 --> 01:47:14.640
Katja Mehlhorn: Certainly.

01:47:14.640 --> 01:47:14.940
Yeah.

01:47:14.945 --> 01:47:15.195
Yeah.

01:47:15.510 --> 01:47:16.950
Rupert Isaacson: I, I would recommend it.

01:47:17.260 --> 01:47:20.980
Listeners, catcher runs a really,
really, really good program.

01:47:20.980 --> 01:47:23.020
You, you want to pick her?

01:47:23.020 --> 01:47:23.260
Right?

01:47:23.650 --> 01:47:26.890
And then just before we go, dream a
little where, where do you want to

01:47:26.890 --> 01:47:29.140
go with this and where do you want
to see, where do you want to see

01:47:29.140 --> 01:47:31.270
the, the equine assisted world go?

01:47:32.380 --> 01:47:32.950
Katja Mehlhorn: Oh yeah.

01:47:33.100 --> 01:47:34.390
Two, two good questions.

01:47:34.690 --> 01:47:38.440
So the, the first one I am, that's
really on my mind right now, like, where

01:47:38.500 --> 01:47:42.610
do I wanna go with this, given that
I'm gonna quit my well paying fixed

01:47:42.610 --> 01:47:44.620
university job, which is kind of scary.

01:47:45.190 --> 01:47:45.310
Must

01:47:45.310 --> 01:47:45.640
Rupert Isaacson: be mad.

01:47:46.150 --> 01:47:46.900
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I know.

01:47:47.050 --> 01:47:51.430
It took me 10 years to bring up the
courage, so I'm very, it feels really

01:47:51.430 --> 01:47:52.990
relieving now that I took this.

01:47:53.020 --> 01:47:53.050
Okay.

01:47:53.710 --> 01:47:59.290
So, so I, it, I what I really would like
to work here with a team of more people

01:47:59.290 --> 01:48:03.700
because now I just work with volunteers
and I just get so much energy from

01:48:03.700 --> 01:48:06.340
working with others and also with clients.

01:48:06.340 --> 01:48:09.520
You see that one client clicks
better with the other person.

01:48:09.520 --> 01:48:12.970
Person and you can really
like working together.

01:48:13.210 --> 01:48:13.480
Yeah.

01:48:13.480 --> 01:48:18.010
You just get more out out of it, I
think for the client and for yourself.

01:48:18.770 --> 01:48:22.490
Some direction we've been
thinking is to work with people

01:48:22.490 --> 01:48:23.960
who can't go to high school.

01:48:24.605 --> 01:48:25.595
Or to, to schools.

01:48:25.595 --> 01:48:29.375
So there's a lot in the Netherlands, I
don't know how that's in other countries.

01:48:29.375 --> 01:48:30.095
Rupert Isaacson: School refuses.

01:48:30.095 --> 01:48:30.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:48:30.825 --> 01:48:33.275
Katja Mehlhorn: School refuses
or, or at risk of mm-hmm.

01:48:33.515 --> 01:48:35.345
Or they only go an hour per day.

01:48:35.975 --> 01:48:37.415
And Yeah.

01:48:37.415 --> 01:48:41.195
Ideally you wanna improve the
schools that you don't need places

01:48:41.195 --> 01:48:42.785
like this where they can come to.

01:48:42.845 --> 01:48:46.745
So we are working on that with
Henri and an parallel thing.

01:48:48.215 --> 01:48:48.515
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:48:48.515 --> 01:48:53.525
So listeners, that's Henrik Berkoff
who was on Live free, ride Free, but

01:48:53.555 --> 01:48:59.015
Kacha and Henrik, Henrik and Giddy Run
an amazing horse boy and other general

01:48:59.015 --> 01:49:02.045
therapeutic farm in central Germany.

01:49:02.225 --> 01:49:07.435
And they with Katya have got a cross
border interesting project going on.

01:49:07.435 --> 01:49:07.525
And

01:49:07.525 --> 01:49:09.445
Katja Mehlhorn: not just with
the other Dutch shareholders.

01:49:09.445 --> 01:49:10.375
By practitioners.

01:49:10.375 --> 01:49:10.645
Yeah.

01:49:11.065 --> 01:49:11.365
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:49:11.365 --> 01:49:13.945
So we, we, we will be reporting on that.

01:49:14.100 --> 01:49:15.655
Katja Mehlhorn: I'm
curious how, how that, and

01:49:15.655 --> 01:49:17.395
Rupert Isaacson: that's about
actually improving the schools.

01:49:17.575 --> 01:49:18.115
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.

01:49:18.115 --> 01:49:18.715
Yes.

01:49:18.955 --> 01:49:19.585
Rupert Isaacson: In what way?

01:49:19.590 --> 01:49:19.880
Like how.

01:49:21.640 --> 01:49:24.010
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, making
them so that we don't have all

01:49:24.010 --> 01:49:26.320
those kids have to drop out.

01:49:26.530 --> 01:49:27.040
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

01:49:27.040 --> 01:49:30.460
But I mean, what, what's,
what's sort of in the plan that

01:49:30.460 --> 01:49:32.200
you've got to help that happen?

01:49:32.200 --> 01:49:33.280
What are you drafting up?

01:49:33.430 --> 01:49:35.440
Katja Mehlhorn: So the, the
idea is to get the, the movement

01:49:35.440 --> 01:49:37.720
method principles more in there.

01:49:37.720 --> 01:49:42.190
So as we already said earlier,
movement nature, following more the

01:49:42.190 --> 01:49:46.480
interest of the child so that they can
actually see the purpose of numbers.

01:49:46.690 --> 01:49:51.100
Other than that the teacher tries
to torture them and, and there's a

01:49:51.100 --> 01:49:55.630
lot of those kind of things already
going on in schools at some level.

01:49:55.630 --> 01:49:59.860
I have the feeling, but it seems
to stay kind of, yeah, this teacher

01:49:59.860 --> 01:50:03.580
at this school is trying that, and
then there's this program over here.

01:50:04.300 --> 01:50:08.770
But yeah, it would be great to
have it much more on a larger scale

01:50:09.640 --> 01:50:10.180
Rupert Isaacson: movement.

01:50:11.335 --> 01:50:11.635
Yeah.

01:50:11.635 --> 01:50:16.105
Well, I'd be very grateful to you if you
can not, if you can, as you knowing you

01:50:16.105 --> 01:50:17.575
and Henrik, you're gonna get it going.

01:50:17.635 --> 01:50:17.935
Yeah.

01:50:18.205 --> 01:50:20.425
I'll be extremely grateful.

01:50:20.425 --> 01:50:22.345
And, and then we'll have you
back on the show, I think, to

01:50:22.345 --> 01:50:23.425
talk about how that's going.

01:50:23.995 --> 01:50:25.495
The equine assisted world in general.

01:50:26.095 --> 01:50:27.355
Where would you like to see it go?

01:50:27.355 --> 01:50:27.505
Yeah.

01:50:27.535 --> 01:50:28.885
How would you like to see it develop?

01:50:29.815 --> 01:50:29.995
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:50:29.995 --> 01:50:35.425
There is so much right now also about
equine welfare in the Netherlands.

01:50:35.425 --> 01:50:38.605
There's this big discussion like
our horses, or do we, should

01:50:38.605 --> 01:50:40.015
we even still ride horses?

01:50:40.015 --> 01:50:42.175
There's like some politicians
who think we shouldn't.

01:50:42.180 --> 01:50:42.470
Mm-hmm.

01:50:42.595 --> 01:50:46.555
And I think that would be such a shame
because I mean, we already touched

01:50:46.555 --> 01:50:51.415
on this couple of times in this
conversation that there's just this, yeah.

01:50:51.475 --> 01:50:55.165
This spark, this magic, this, this
something between humans and horses

01:50:55.615 --> 01:51:02.935
that, that, that we can use for our
welfare and our sanity in this crazy

01:51:03.295 --> 01:51:06.655
digital, busy, stressful world.

01:51:07.475 --> 01:51:07.655
That.

01:51:08.840 --> 01:51:09.110
That.

01:51:09.830 --> 01:51:15.450
So hopefully we, we move towards
more equine welfare and also

01:51:15.450 --> 01:51:17.100
towards more human welfare.

01:51:17.100 --> 01:51:18.810
By, by, by pairing them up.

01:51:19.590 --> 01:51:19.860
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:51:19.860 --> 01:51:25.280
It seems to me that this idea
of public license and, you know,

01:51:27.290 --> 01:51:31.130
should we be doing it although it's
good that we should always examine,

01:51:31.130 --> 01:51:33.791
you know, what we do, At the same
time, there's something in it that

01:51:33.791 --> 01:51:40.211
saddens me because it seems to me about
just yet another removal from nature.

01:51:40.211 --> 01:51:40.721
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.

01:51:41.171 --> 01:51:41.531
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:51:41.531 --> 01:51:43.226
You know, arm horses are nature.

01:51:44.711 --> 01:51:46.541
Our interaction with them is nature.

01:51:47.171 --> 01:51:47.801
Okay.

01:51:47.801 --> 01:51:47.921
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:51:47.921 --> 01:51:51.401
And the, the, it would be such a
shame because I mean the, the people

01:51:51.401 --> 01:51:53.471
that give it a bad image that.

01:51:54.206 --> 01:51:58.286
That treat the horses as, as the
sports tools for the money and

01:51:58.286 --> 01:52:01.166
that maybe reject the or Yeah.

01:52:01.196 --> 01:52:04.526
Don't take welfare as
important as, as it could be.

01:52:04.706 --> 01:52:06.836
They then damage it for everyone.

01:52:06.866 --> 01:52:10.526
I mean, there's all those people
who are trying to really do it in a

01:52:10.526 --> 01:52:12.566
way that is nice for the horse and

01:52:12.836 --> 01:52:13.556
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

01:52:13.562 --> 01:52:14.246
Katja Mehlhorn: The horse can do it.

01:52:14.641 --> 01:52:14.921
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

01:52:14.966 --> 01:52:15.506
I agree.

01:52:15.506 --> 01:52:19.516
It's I think it's a necessary
conversation, but I hope that it

01:52:19.516 --> 01:52:22.696
doesn't swing to an extreme that ends up

01:52:22.696 --> 01:52:22.786
mm-hmm.

01:52:23.836 --> 01:52:25.576
Harming both horses and humans.

01:52:26.216 --> 01:52:30.236
Because horses are a domestic species
and, you know, the next thing we'll

01:52:30.236 --> 01:52:31.466
say, well, should we own dogs?

01:52:31.916 --> 01:52:32.216
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:52:32.486 --> 01:52:33.716
Rupert Isaacson: And, you know, and then

01:52:33.956 --> 01:52:34.821
Katja Mehlhorn: it, how about that?

01:52:35.161 --> 01:52:39.026
Rupert Isaacson: And if, if, if the answer
to that is also No and all of that, then.

01:52:39.626 --> 01:52:42.476
What interactions with nature
are we allowed to have,

01:52:42.776 --> 01:52:44.366
particularly for urban populations.

01:52:44.396 --> 01:52:46.436
Katja Mehlhorn: And I mean, just
going back to the example with

01:52:46.436 --> 01:52:49.556
the apples, if you don't know what
a natural apple looks like, you

01:52:49.556 --> 01:52:51.356
won't like care about the apples.

01:52:51.356 --> 01:52:56.216
So if you never interact with an animal,
you won't care for them or protect them.

01:52:56.846 --> 01:53:00.146
So yeah, you, you have
to, I wonder if, I wonder

01:53:00.146 --> 01:53:03.446
Rupert Isaacson: if, you know, you, you,
you, you were talking about this lady in

01:53:03.476 --> 01:53:07.976
Virginia Brook Hill Farm, and I actually
work in a very similar place in Chicago

01:53:08.036 --> 01:53:10.196
quite often called Triple H Ranch.

01:53:10.656 --> 01:53:12.726
Really good places where they
do exactly the same thing.

01:53:12.726 --> 01:53:17.556
They, they take rescue horses and
my God, are some of these horses

01:53:17.556 --> 01:53:18.936
in a bad way when they come in?

01:53:19.176 --> 01:53:24.126
Like, I hadn't seen horses that
emaciated since, like living in, I

01:53:24.126 --> 01:53:27.006
used to live in India for a while
and I saw, you know, horses that were

01:53:27.006 --> 01:53:29.556
living on the street and that sort of
thing, you know, terrible conditions.

01:53:30.006 --> 01:53:31.416
You think in America it's.

01:53:32.001 --> 01:53:34.011
Quite difficult to get a
horse in that condition.

01:53:34.011 --> 01:53:35.361
'cause there's like
grass growing everywhere.

01:53:35.421 --> 01:53:37.611
You know, you've actually
gotta try quite hard.

01:53:37.911 --> 01:53:38.061
Yeah.

01:53:38.271 --> 01:53:40.371
If you don't like the horse, you can
always just open the gate and let it

01:53:40.371 --> 01:53:42.411
out and it'll find grazing somewhere.

01:53:42.411 --> 01:53:43.311
Someone will pick it up.

01:53:43.311 --> 01:53:43.671
Right.

01:53:44.021 --> 01:53:46.991
In the same way that people dump
dogs, people do dump horses that way.

01:53:46.991 --> 01:53:52.101
So to, to get a horse to that level of
starvation is like how but nonetheless,

01:53:52.101 --> 01:53:56.901
I saw horses coming in like that and
then her saw her rehab them and her

01:53:56.901 --> 01:54:02.841
client base being the rehabers as
exactly as you said, maybe we need to

01:54:03.081 --> 01:54:07.011
somehow have more of an emphasis on
this in our equine assisted programs.

01:54:07.431 --> 01:54:12.081
And I am hoping to, we're doing a lot of
outreach at the moment to the sport world.

01:54:12.951 --> 01:54:16.971
Ireland is a really good mover and
shaker in this horse sport island.

01:54:17.451 --> 01:54:17.541
Mm-hmm.

01:54:17.731 --> 01:54:19.801
Which governs everything from racing to.

01:54:20.446 --> 01:54:25.526
Show jumping to equine assisted
realized quite recently that the,

01:54:25.526 --> 01:54:27.926
it's really the only sector of
the horse industry that's growing.

01:54:27.926 --> 01:54:27.986
Hmm.

01:54:29.306 --> 01:54:29.516
Equine.

01:54:30.116 --> 01:54:30.476
Yeah.

01:54:30.916 --> 01:54:35.296
And we are the only ones who
actually can really make a

01:54:35.296 --> 01:54:37.996
point of rehabbing and rescue.

01:54:38.516 --> 01:54:43.016
And we of course take over the
wastage from the sport world, but

01:54:43.016 --> 01:54:46.346
the sport world doesn't have to
operate in a way that wastes horses.

01:54:46.646 --> 01:54:48.236
That's just something that's evolved.

01:54:48.596 --> 01:54:48.926
Yeah.

01:54:48.986 --> 01:54:50.906
Because of a poor economic model.

01:54:51.956 --> 01:54:57.146
You know, could we, the equine assisted
practitioners be the ones leading

01:54:57.566 --> 01:55:03.206
the way to better practices at the
beginning of the sport process so that

01:55:03.206 --> 01:55:09.836
horses get injured less, you know,
have more training in them to look

01:55:09.836 --> 01:55:11.846
after their balance and their bodies.

01:55:12.431 --> 01:55:17.351
Emotionally, and then also when they move
on from the sport career to then move

01:55:17.351 --> 01:55:19.931
more seamlessly into the next career.

01:55:20.411 --> 01:55:22.991
I do believe that's possible, and I
do believe that we are the ones with

01:55:22.991 --> 01:55:24.911
the technology for that, you know?

01:55:25.121 --> 01:55:25.271
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:55:25.901 --> 01:55:29.171
Rupert Isaacson: So maybe we should
be seeing a bit of that at your farm

01:55:29.441 --> 01:55:34.031
to see who from the racing industry,
who from the dressage industry, who

01:55:34.031 --> 01:55:38.441
from the jumping industry can we
pair up with and partner up with.

01:55:38.501 --> 01:55:38.621
Mm-hmm.

01:55:38.921 --> 01:55:39.851
Whether it's aftercare

01:55:40.301 --> 01:55:40.631
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:55:40.631 --> 01:55:40.661
Or

01:55:40.871 --> 01:55:41.621
Rupert Isaacson: pre-care.

01:55:41.981 --> 01:55:42.461
Yeah.

01:55:42.911 --> 01:55:44.051
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I think a good point.

01:55:44.051 --> 01:55:44.891
You're, you are touching.

01:55:44.891 --> 01:55:46.631
There also is visibility like

01:55:47.201 --> 01:55:47.231
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:55:48.281 --> 01:55:50.531
Katja Mehlhorn: What I said, like, now
people, at least in the Netherlands, they

01:55:50.531 --> 01:55:54.071
see like the examples of the dressage
horses with the blue tongue and the,

01:55:54.071 --> 01:55:56.111
and the, and the blood on their mouth.

01:55:56.741 --> 01:56:01.781
While all this, I mean, all of us
who work in equine assisted, we know

01:56:02.261 --> 01:56:04.121
that cool stuff that's happening.

01:56:04.151 --> 01:56:06.251
So I think that needs to be more visible.

01:56:06.926 --> 01:56:07.346
Yeah.

01:56:07.856 --> 01:56:11.546
Who is better than the people who
already love horses and do sport

01:56:11.546 --> 01:56:13.646
with them to, to get it visible to

01:56:14.156 --> 01:56:14.426
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

01:56:14.876 --> 01:56:15.956
Katja Mehlhorn: And,
and, and get involved.

01:56:15.956 --> 01:56:16.136
I

01:56:16.136 --> 01:56:16.466
Rupert Isaacson: agree.

01:56:16.856 --> 01:56:21.116
I also feel that most sport horses
honestly would love to have a

01:56:21.116 --> 01:56:25.076
double career, a parallel career
doing the equine assisted stuff.

01:56:25.106 --> 01:56:26.456
'cause that's what my horses do.

01:56:26.456 --> 01:56:28.796
Like as you know, my horses,
they're dressage horses, they're

01:56:28.796 --> 01:56:31.076
jumping horses, they trail horses.

01:56:31.076 --> 01:56:33.056
They do it all, but they
also do the therapy work.

01:56:33.061 --> 01:56:33.351
Mm-hmm.

01:56:33.431 --> 01:56:34.286
They're just like humans.

01:56:34.286 --> 01:56:35.816
They love to have variety in their work.

01:56:35.821 --> 01:56:35.951
Yeah.

01:56:35.956 --> 01:56:38.426
And they like to do more than one thing.

01:56:39.366 --> 01:56:42.786
It would be very interesting to
see, could we, could we find some

01:56:42.786 --> 01:56:48.576
Dutch high level rider who's willing
to bring their multimillion dollar

01:56:48.576 --> 01:56:50.976
horse into the therapy thing?

01:56:51.036 --> 01:56:51.276
Yeah.

01:56:51.366 --> 01:56:52.446
As a bit of a flagship.

01:56:52.446 --> 01:56:53.226
You know what I mean?

01:56:53.466 --> 01:56:54.726
That might be an interesting project.

01:56:54.726 --> 01:56:55.001
Things like that.

01:56:55.001 --> 01:56:55.121
Yeah.

01:56:55.126 --> 01:56:56.886
Like can we identify that individual?

01:56:57.816 --> 01:56:58.086
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.

01:56:59.206 --> 01:57:00.711
Rupert Isaacson: I think I just
set myself a challenge there.

01:57:00.951 --> 01:57:01.431
Katja Mehlhorn: Nice.

01:57:01.491 --> 01:57:01.941
Yeah.

01:57:01.942 --> 01:57:01.952
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:57:02.151 --> 01:57:04.071
Alright, well I guess that's
what we are gonna do next year.

01:57:04.071 --> 01:57:04.701
All right, fine.

01:57:04.881 --> 01:57:05.001
Katja Mehlhorn: Cool.

01:57:07.131 --> 01:57:07.611
Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

01:57:07.611 --> 01:57:11.271
Well thank you so much
Katya, for all of this.

01:57:11.391 --> 01:57:11.961
Thank you.

01:57:12.021 --> 01:57:13.131
And for the work you do.

01:57:13.341 --> 01:57:16.221
And I guess we'll see you soon
over on Live Free Ride free

01:57:16.581 --> 01:57:18.051
to talk about AI in the brain.

01:57:18.621 --> 01:57:19.251
Katja Mehlhorn: All right.

01:57:21.771 --> 01:57:22.431
Rupert Isaacson: All right then.

01:57:22.671 --> 01:57:23.661
Until next time,

01:57:23.841 --> 01:57:24.711
Katja Mehlhorn: thank you so much.

01:57:24.801 --> 01:57:25.371
Rupert Isaacson: My pleasure.

01:57:25.431 --> 01:57:26.031
Thank you.

01:57:26.076 --> 01:57:26.566
Katja Mehlhorn: Bye-bye.

01:57:26.866 --> 01:57:29.986
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

01:57:30.526 --> 01:57:35.426
If you like what we're doing here,
please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.

01:57:35.436 --> 01:57:39.606
It so helps us to get this valuable
work done and the message of

01:57:39.606 --> 01:57:41.486
Equine Assisted Stuff out there.

01:57:41.636 --> 01:57:44.716
And if you're interested in more
conversations, you might want to check

01:57:44.726 --> 01:57:47.406
out I'll live free ride free podcast.

01:57:47.796 --> 01:57:52.556
And if you'd like to support the
podcasts, please go to rupertisakson.

01:57:52.606 --> 01:57:55.096
com and click on the Patreon link.

01:57:55.796 --> 01:57:59.316
If you're a professional in the equine
assisted field or considering a career

01:57:59.666 --> 01:58:03.176
in the equine assisted field, you
might want to check out our three

01:58:03.186 --> 01:58:08.946
certification programs, horseboy
method, movement method, and taquin.

01:58:09.031 --> 01:58:10.501
Equine integration.

01:58:10.771 --> 01:58:15.721
You can find all of those over
on new Trails learning.com.

01:58:15.921 --> 01:58:19.311
And finally, if you want to check
out our cool rock and roll themed

01:58:19.311 --> 01:58:22.331
merch back on rupert isaacson.com,

01:58:22.661 --> 01:58:23.801
please click on Shop.

01:58:23.861 --> 01:58:25.541
You'll find all kinds
of fun goodies there.

01:58:25.721 --> 01:58:31.111
And if you're looking for a way to spend
time until the next podcast, you might

01:58:31.111 --> 01:58:35.221
want to consider reading the books that
kicked all this off The Horse Boy, the

01:58:35.221 --> 01:58:38.031
Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.

01:58:38.301 --> 01:58:39.921
So see you next time on Equine Assistant.

01:58:40.041 --> 01:58:40.371
world.

01:58:40.631 --> 01:58:41.821
Join us for the adventure.