Jeff Sherman: Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a
few crusty sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit.
Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing,
workflow, growth, and more.
You're listening to The Better Sign Shop podcast with your hosts, Peter Kaunas,
Michael Riley and Bryant Gillespie.
Bryant Gillespie: Right guys, we are back with the next edition
of the Better Sign Shop podcast.
As always, I've got my colleague, the side shop, Yoda, Peter Kaunas.
Hi Pete.
Jeff Sherman: What's up everybody?
Peter Kourounis: Nice to see everyone again.
Bryant Gillespie: And we also actually have Mike the signed
burrito costume with us this week.
Thank you.
You look good in
Michael Riley: that man.
Do I?
Is it working for me?
Bryant Gillespie: It's, I could see why your wife married you, you stud.
and then we, I've been saying this for years.
We've also got a special guest, an old friend of ours, Jeff Sherman,
out on the West Coast, Jeff.
You
all
Jeff Sherman: signed, Jeff?
Hello.
Hello, Hello.
How was everybody doing?
Thanks for having me in, guys.
Appreciate it.
Michael Riley: Right.
Happy to have you on.
Yeah, we're excited.
So,
Jeff Sherman: so the, the signed burrito thing, I, I, I listened to your last
episode and, you had people, you, you put out a challenge for people to come
up with new nicknames for, for Mike.
So I, i, I, I hope you don't mind, but I took the opportunity to, to
try to throw a couple together in preparation for today's session.
So, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna kind of throw those out there for you, Paul.
I can't wait.
Let's hear it.
Michael Riley: I don't wanna be the burrito anymore, so.
Okay,
Jeff Sherman: well, well save me, Rescue me.
Well start starting with that one.
I'm actually just gonna go with the sign Chimichanga.
Brian, you know, you, you got, you got the sign, you got the
signed burrito, but I really think Mike's a bit, cru ears in that.
Oh,
Kimmy Changa.
Bryant Gillespie: Touche.
Chi Changa.
Okay, That's Nu Uno.
Jeff Sherman: All right.
we're, we're just gonna go simple.
Sign Master General Sign
Michael Riley: Master General.
Bryant Gillespie: Okay.
Sign Master General.
Mike, you like that one or no?
Yes.
Let's, Mike, you gotta give, like, you gotta rate each one of these.
Michael Riley: Right.
Like, I like Chi Cho.
I like that one, but I, Let's back up Sign Chi Choa.
Let's start with the Chi Cho.
That one's, It's so good.
. Jeff Sherman: I don't, I don't, Well,
Michael Riley: well, I don't, I don't wanna like it, but I do.
Jeff Sherman: Let's, sign Master General.
What, what are your thoughts on that?
Michael Riley: I'm like 50 50 on that one.
I like it, It sounds more official, but like, it's not as
Jeff Sherman: appropriate.
Okay.
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna go to the weakest one next, but it's, you
know, topical, the fine husband.
Congrats on the recent wedding.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, that one's, that one's good.
We, we know we're all married to our business, you know,
as, as sick as that is.
we'll, we'll, we'll go old school.
Sign your Wednesday
Right?
It was little
And then, and then I, you know, I have to throw this out cuz I was
listening on my headphones yesterday.
I'm gonna call you the sign Podcast.
Barry White.
Dude.
Do those do cones?
Mad
White.
Michael Riley: I, ok.
Those are
Bryant Gillespie: the signed shop, Berry White, the signed
podcast Berry White Mike.
I'm trying to resist the podcast.
Berry White.
Give us a few bars.
Dude,
Michael Riley: I'm try, Well, I'm trying really hard.
Not, I'm trying to think of a Barry White song.
My brain just went like totally spaced outta me.
Hang on, let me look at some.
Jeff Sherman: My first, my last, my everything went . Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
I didn't, he he just got married.
Like, like, come on now.
Did you not get, I know you'd think I would, You didn't play
any very white at the reception.
Michael Riley: We didn't.
Jeff Sherman: I don't remember.
Oh, that's good.
That's
Michael Riley: a good sign, right?
Yeah, No, I, I don't know.
Like I, that's a tough one.
I really like, I, I don't want to be a Mexican, you know, menu
Jeff Sherman: item.
I'm tired to
Michael Riley: that, but the chi
Jeff Sherman: is really funny.
Like
Michael Riley: I can't help it . It's totally random.
It makes
Jeff Sherman: no sense at it.
Peter Kourounis: Definitely has my vote.
I think that
Jeff Sherman: is the most well articulated name for you,
Peter Kourounis: beyond just being
Jeff Sherman: such a plain stale burrito.
Yeah.
No,
Michael Riley: I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to Home Depot and get like some
brown spray paint and just make this look like it's toasted . Yeah.
I can, I
Peter Kourounis: can wear, Yeah, definitely.
You could do that.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
What do you think are those little yellow things on your shoulder?
What, what?
What would
Jeff Sherman: that look like?
What, What is that?
I'm
Michael Riley: assuming it's cheddar cheese, which is really inauthentic.
Shouldn't be yellow cheese and a burrito, but, And I guess these are tomatoes.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I don't know why it's a, I don't know why it's a burrito.
That's the weird
Jeff Sherman: part.
burrito.
It looked kind, I mean, grow over here.
Anyway, it looked a little bit like a pizza, like a pizza.
Yeah, you can't,
Michael Riley: you're not getting the full effect of it.
You gotta like, see
. Jeff Sherman: Oh, it's
Peter Kourounis: like, it's got a nice little fold on
Jeff Sherman: the belly.
Chipotle take notes.
This is how you, this is how you a tight
Michael Riley: burrito.
Yeah.
. But I, I am sweating like a pig.
Like
Bryant Gillespie: this is really hot.
The signed chi changa.
See that one's got flavors.
You give it a little kick to it.
if you're listening to this one, let us know what you think of those five.
We're leaning towards signed Chi Changa, but it may change next episode if
Jeff Sherman: you're, if you're still listening.
So where, where does, where does I have to ask though?
Cause I, you know, I've only listened to a couple of the episodes.
Pete.
Pete, where does the sign Yoda come from?
Bryant.
Okay.
That's where that, that's where it came from.
Peter Kourounis: I, I honestly didn't come up with it.
It's, I am a Star Wars fan.
Okay.
not, I don't warrant myself being the Yoda, but it was a name that was
given on me and bestowed upon me.
And I said, All right, I'll rock with it.
Bryant Gillespie: You gotta ride it.
So I was, this is when I had, hired Pete to do videos for us at Shop Fox.
Mm-hmm.
, and I was looking for a way to introduce him.
he had, I think he had just got done with whatever clause that he had
about his selling his franchise.
So he came on board to do videos and I was like, Hey, how am
I gonna introduce this guy?
And
Jeff Sherman: I was like, just rolled through to,
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, it was something like, we started with like
Guru or something like that, and I was like, this just doesn't fit.
So somehow, I don't know if like the new Star Wars had come out at that
time, how many years ago that was.
but it just, It stuck, man.
Or maybe it was, maybe it was when the No, it wasn't the
Mandalorian that was Baby Yoda.
It
Peter Kourounis: might.
It might, yeah.
But it might have been like, around that time when, where it came out the
first season, it might have been optic.
Look
Jeff Sherman: back, you know, if we're talking baby Yoda then you
know, Mike's got that look down.
Totally right.
Peter Kourounis: Mike.
Mike, the baby Yoda.
Jeff Sherman: alright, well, no, I derivative.
Michael Riley: I wanna know, I wanna know Bryan, like the sign shop Yoda rolled
right off your tongue for Peter, like, The signed burrito came to mind for me.
Like it's
. Bryant Gillespie: It's, that's what I was telling Jeff.
You eat so many tacos and Mexican food and like every time I talk to you, you're at,
you're in the drive through at Taco Bell.
I very rarely do I call Mike on his cell phone, but if I ever call
him on this cell phone, he's like, Yeah, Taco, hang on a minute.
I'm, I'm trying to get some lunch at Taco Bell.
Can I call you back?
I'm like, like, Okay.
Yeah, I got.
Michael Riley: Okay.
That's, that's fair.
I'll go, I'll give you that
. Jeff Sherman: So I learned something new about Mike today.
He likes to main poisoning
Taco, Taco Bell special.
Alright.
Michael Riley: Yeah, I love it.
This nacho fries man are so good.
As we get
Bryant Gillespie: into it, obviously anybody listening out there,
you haven't been on the podcast before, Jeff, why don't you give
us your sign industry backstory?
Jeff Sherman: Sure.
well I think like a lot of people, I got into the sign industry on accident.
didn't know what I was getting into in the first place at all.
I've been in it for 20, 23 years now.
Literally through a miscommunication.
my, my, my grandfather moved into a, a condo complex and, got to
talking to one of his neighbors.
And, they got to the part of, you know, what do you do for a living?
And, and the neighbors said, I do vehicle graphics.
And all my grandfather heard was graphics and I'd gone to school for graphic design.
So my grandfather said, Oh, my, my grandson does that.
And the guy said, Hey, I'm kinda looking for somebody for the
shop once you bring him over.
And so I went over and.
Two minutes after meeting the guy, I'm like, Yeah, I don't
do this, but, I need a job.
And I learn quick.
So when I give it a shot, and so 23 years later, I'm, I'm still a sign guy.
but yeah.
started off in vehicle wraps.
Basically used to do all the stuff for, for Red Bull, believe it or not,
out of a little tiny, three man shop in, in Huntington Beach over here.
We used to do all the promo vehicles.
Have you ever seen those?
Those little, little, little cars cans on top of them.
Yes.
That driving around the little, the little, mini Coopers or whatever, they're,
they did Mini Coopers at one point.
They started off with, they were Suzukis like, I can't remember.
It was a little Suzuki, that Red Bull pretty much bought up every single one
that they had, X J 90 or something like that, I think is what it was called.
and they would retrofit those things and these cans onto them.
And we did all the, all the graphics for that.
And this was, this was like pre, this was like early, early digital days.
So that stuff wasn't done as wraps.
It was, They would, the, the, the companies that were modifying the cars
would, you know, build a rigs and then take, convert the trunks into coolers
and then paint the, the things in the silver and blue, and then we'd come out
and put two color, CAD cut vinyl on it.
and so we did all of those and then we were doing all of their, their fleet.
The delivery vehicles all out of a little, little shop.
It was crazy.
Had a couple, couple 48 inch Rollins that we were running like 24 7 just to
ship hits all over the, all over the.
Michael Riley: Nice.
I haven't heard anybody say CAD cut vinyl in so long.
Jeff Sherman: Oh, really?
Really?
What?
Okay.
They gave, they gave me the
Michael Riley: warm and fuzzies.
Jeff Sherman: It's pretty funny.
What, what?
Okay, so I'm, I'm, I'm old school apparently.
What, what is, what is, what does everybody call it?
Oh, it's just always
Michael Riley: cut vinyl now.
I haven't heard anybody about the CAD in front of it.
Okay.
All right.
That's how I learned too, was the CAD cut.
But
Jeff Sherman: yeah, I mean, I guess as an old school, what are
the other options at this point?
I mean, you gonna do non CAD cut vinyl, I guess?
Yeah, it is a little redundant in it.
Okay.
Well, hey, thanks for the, the, the, the, the education I'm gonna head out now.
, thanks for making me feel old.
You.
so yeah.
so yeah, started off in a vinyl shop and then, spent the last
almost 19 years at a company that specialized in, architectural signage.
Mostly interior for a lot of that.
So I got a ton of ADA signage and interior sign system design and
manufacturer and install, under my belt.
And, and, you know, about five to six years worth of
the electrical stuff as well.
So it's been a, it's been an interesting, an interesting ride.
you know, I find myself at this point in my career kinda reevaluating.
Where my strengths and where my weaknesses are in the sign business.
For the longest time, I've been kind of the resident subject
matter expert within the company.
And, what does that mean, you know, so that meant that about 80%
of my day was spent, especially since the advent of teams.
fielding messages and, and quick calls and answering questions to everybody in
the, in the company, from the sales side, project management, fabrication design,
Pretty much everybody soup to nuts in the, in the business would, would hit
me up with, Hey, I've got this thing.
What are we supposed to do with it?
You know, how, how do I design this?
How do I sell it?
What's the right material to use for this?
What's, you know, how do we install this?
What's the hardware I need?
How do I deal with the city on this?
I, I mean, literally I was like the Wikipedia of the company.
I, it was, it was a very odd, very odd role.
I mean, technically speaking, for the longest time, my, my title was Vice
President of Operations, but honestly, it was, I mean Chief Cook and bottle
washer, you know, But yeah, it was af Jeff, you know, forget Ask Jeans and Yes.
Yes.
There's another old one for your mic.
Okay.
Ask.
Cause nobody remembers that either.
I saw, I remember that one.
Michael Riley: Do you
Jeff Sherman: That one was cool, right?
Yeah.
I, I actually never even used it.
I just knew it was a thing.
but yeah, it was just, it was, it was like, that was
the company process, you know?
You got a question, you just ask.
Yes.
You don't, you don't look it up, you don't look into records, whatever.
It's just call Jeff, figure it out.
You know?
And then of course I was the, I was the resident shop box expert too, you
know, if, if there is such a thing,
Bryant Gillespie: And that's how Jim and I got introduced
to each other through Shop Box.
Peter Kourounis: This is true.
Yes.
How, Let me ask you this.
Let me ask you as a follow up here.
Sure.
In a way, you became the Sign Shop general, right?
If, if you got, if you have all.
Of these people asking you
Jeff Sherman: questions, you're, you are the source of all of
Peter Kourounis: all of those answers.
How does that make you feel as an owner that you are, that tied into
all of those operations, all of those key components to your business
that you know, that everybody goes
Jeff Sherman: to?
How does that make you feel as an owner?
Well, so let a couple things.
number one, and, and, and you don't know this, so forgive me for correcting
it like this, but I wasn't the owner.
I, I, it was the small shop when I started.
There were five people there, but I got hired on, I was a hired, okay.
So, you know, there's that layer to that onion, but, you know, it's
at a certain level of gratifying.
It's good to know that you bring a value, that people value what you
contribute, that value, that people.
recognize that you've got, you know, knowledge that you can, you can
bring to, to, to help them out at the, on the other hand, it speaks
to the kinda lack of training that went in, you know, systemically
into the company as, as a culture.
you know, it, and I was just talking to somebody, I was interviewing with
somebody yesterday morning, and asked them what their biggest struggle was.
And, and without dropping any names, I'm just gonna say this is one of
the largest national companies in the US that I was talking to yesterday.
and I asked them what their biggest challenges were as an organization,
and one of the first things he mentioned was, was people, you
know, finding signed people.
Is difficult.
So often you find yourself, especially as a smaller shop, having to build your own.
And that can be a challenge.
You know, there's, there's, it's very difficult to supplant
just time and experience.
You know, you can, you can, you can support it.
but I think the way that, the situation that I ended up in where everybody
was constantly coming to me asking questions is, is an example of, Maybe
not having a so good of a, system of, of onboarding and, and building a, a,
a basis of knowledge within the staff.
You know?
Peter Kourounis: So let's, let's start with that for a moment.
For our listeners out there that are always concerned about finding
people, there's tons of owners out there that own their own shops and
they have the same problem, right?
Mm-hmm.
, they have the same problem.
Like, where, how can I find people, How can I find people, But I don't
want to talk about how to find people.
Mm-hmm.
that, that, that's a, that's a simple, you know, 10 or 15 minute conversation.
But how do you build people up?
How, in your experience, how have you taken somebody that doesn't
have experience and what have you done in, in your experience to build
them up so that they can become sign guys or sign people, whatever you
Jeff Sherman: wanna call em.
Sure.
You know, I, I think, I think one of the first, and.
Most effective ways of dealing with that is doing rotations
through all of the areas in your business, whatever that might be.
so many of us, and I'm I I, I mentioned this before we started here, many
of us are that kind of chief cook and bottle washer is, is a sign guy.
You know, it, we, we tend not to be so focused on, I'm a sign designer
or I'm a science fabricator, or I sell signs, or I'm a project manager.
Yes, there are companies that are structured that way, but even in those
companies, the people that tend to succeed in this industry, at least from what
I've seen, are the ones that are a little more rounded and at least understand how,
what it is that they're doing impacts the overall process because, You know,
every single little thing that we touch from the sales conversations to what
we recommend to the customer is the solution to what gets designed to get
what gets produced ultimately has an impact on the final product and how well
it suits what the client needed and how happy they're gonna be with it, right?
So to me, to build that kind of sign person, you've gotta, you, you've
gotta build that understanding of the process from start to finish and
put people in different areas and let them experience the different areas.
So send your sign designer into the shop.
Let 'em, let 'em work with the guys.
Let 'em, let 'em weed some vinyl.
You wanna, you wanna, you wanna discourage a, you wanna discourage a sign
designer from setting up quarter inch?
Cut copy, cut vinyl, copy.
Let 'em try to weed some of it for about an hour.
what else?
yeah, put put em, you know, put em, let em let em go.
Maybe don't put 'em in the paint booth.
You know, put 'em in air, but let, let, let him get around it, you know?
let, let, let him see how, how things take them in through the MetaLab shop.
Let see how to channel letters are, are put together again.
Yeah.
You want discourage a half inch stroke on a, on a five inch deep channel.
Let him have a conversation with the guy in metals, spas, trying to get his, his,
his welding gun down to the inside of the channel and grip at him about, Hey, you
see how this doesn't fit in here, I get so get your sales people through there.
You know?
So what you're
Peter Kourounis: saying is you, you basically take them through
all phases of your operation from anywhere, from front of the house
to very deep into fabrication, possibly even into installation, I
Jeff Sherman: would guess, as well, out in the future.
Absolutely.
Peter Kourounis: And, and you're, and you're getting them ex, you're
giving them exposure into all elements of what this business is.
Mm-hmm.
And then, and then at the end of the.
You're hoping that they're gonna pick up some of those nuggets, right?
Like that there, that there's gonna be something there that resonates with them,
that teaches them, that exposes them, that maybe they could find a home with
comfortability in some of those aspects.
But what do you do as the, the manager to kind of make sure that
they are receiving some nuggets, Like they can walk around and I could
play around in your paint booth.
Sure.
I don't know if I'm gonna learn anything.
So what do you do
Jeff Sherman: to kinda enforce that?
So it, it has to be a guided activity.
I mean, you, you need to map out.
Here's things that I wanna expose this person to.
Okay?
So you're gonna work with your staff.
You're gonna say, Okay, put, put, put an agenda together for the day.
Hey, I, I want you to, I want to spend an hour in vinyl.
I want 'em to see, show 'em how things are cut.
Show 'em how you load the media.
Show 'em how things are weeded.
Give them some vinyl to weed so they experience what that's like.
then get 'em over into this area here and show 'em this, that, and this.
Map out.
Map out a, an actual agenda for the day.
Then you gotta sit down with them at the end of the day.
And talk to 'em about it.
Do a, do a debrief with them.
Ask them questions.
What did you see?
What, you know, what kind of, what kind of things made sense?
What things didn't make sense when you saw this?
Did, did, do you know why they were doing that?
So, to me, any kind of training program and that, that's gonna have
value and is gonna stick, my approach always goes to give, give the, give
the holistic, give them the, how does this fit into the bigger picture?
Give them the why behind why something is done rather than just
this is, this is how it's done.
If I don't understand why something is done the way it's done, odds are
I'm not gonna quite grab onto it.
Or at very least, I'm not gonna buy in.
If I don't buy in, then it's not gonna, you know, it, it, it's not gonna grab you.
So yeah,
Peter Kourounis: there, there's, there's definitely an, there's
definitely an old Benjamin Franklin quote that really resonate, resonates
with what you are talking about.
You know, it's, it's a quote that I've taught about.
It's a, it's a quote that I live by, you know, it says, it says, Tell me and I
forget, teach me and I or may remember, but involve me and I learn mm-hmm.
and that, and that's basically what you are, what you're saying here
is that if you involve them in the process, they're going to retain a lot.
And essentially yes.
You can't find that in any training manual.
So the only thing that, that our listeners need to make sure that they're doing,
when, if they, if there are sign shop owners out there that are doing it very
similarly, like to you, that you are, is that they need to have some sort
of sit down the checks and balances of it all, where they're gonna sit
down and they're gonna say, Hey, You know, tell me what you picked up on.
Tell me what you're concerned about, what you saw, What are
your fears, What are your doubts?
What are you excited about?
Mm-hmm.
. And then let's kind of talk through those points.
Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
That's, that, that's a really great way of developing people in this business.
I, I tend to really like that.
Mm-hmm.
the only pushback I've gotten on that in the past is how long it takes.
Sure.
Right.
It's not like you can, it's not like you give them a playbook.
Mm-hmm.
, you're, you're giving them, you're giving them, you're working
around your operation schedule.
Mm-hmm.
, you're working around your schedule.
Mm-hmm.
and sometimes that could be convoluted.
So that's usually the pushback there.
What are your comments on
Jeff Sherman: that?
I mean, let's face it, No matter how you slice this, this onion,
training people and developing people is a time consuming process.
if you're concerned about the amount of time that that's gonna take, think about
how much time it's gonna take to replace that person when they don't work for you.
Think about the time spent to recruit onboard and go through that, if that
person doesn't succeed, failure rate, you know, the, the, the replacement cycle and
doing that is much more expensive from a time and, and, and money perspective.
So put the time in and get it right.
Right.
You, you, and, and you, you, you don't get, you don't get a lot of
opportunities for that, you know?
un unless you wanna be a shop that has high turnover.
And then if you do have, have a shop that has high turnover, you really need
to be looking at why that is, Why , you know, and, and I can say this, that, I,
I've come from a shop that had very high turnover and I, I can talk about some of
the reasons why that was, but, and some of it really was in the onboarding processes.
So I've learned, I've learned through, through mistakes, but.
Well, let's talk
Peter Kourounis: about that.
That's, that's a really great thing to bring up here.
Yeah.
You know, when you're talking around, when you're talking about people, right?
Mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
, and you're, you have to, you have to talk about turnover, so mm-hmm.
go without really putting any owner under the bus or any mentioning any names.
Sure.
What are some of those obstacles that you've seen during recruitment?
Jeff Sherman: Mm-hmm.
and also onboard.
So one of the, one of the biggest things on the recruitment side, and
I know a lot of small business owners are guilty of this, listen, during
your interviews, ask questions and shut up and let the interviewee talk.
So many times I've sat in on interviews where the person
who's applying for the job does.
A quarter of the talking, maybe more, less, almost as though the business owner
is more intent on selling the job to the applicant than the other way around.
I don't know if any of you've experienced that or seen it, but I've witnessed it
more times than I can possibly count.
so yeah, shut up.
Listen, pay attention, Let them talk to you.
Bryant Gillespie: what do you, what do you attribute that to?
Like, Hey, I'm just trying to fill the seat.
Or like, Hey, the, the person doing the interview is nervous.
I mean, I can, I can kinda understand if it's, if it's a smaller shop and
like you're a newer owner mm-hmm.
Like, being kind of, Oh, I'm trying to hire somebody.
This is my first couple hires.
You might be a little nervous.
Mm-hmm.
a little prone to talking more than you should.
Mm-hmm.
. But,
Jeff Sherman: I think a fair amount of it is that I need a body, you
know, people, So sometimes it's, it's the, we waited too long.
We really needed somebody two months ago, but we didn't think about
it, and now we're in dire need.
And so it's, you know, get me somebody now type scenario.
And yeah, there's a little bit of, you're breathing, you're here, let's, let's,
let's get you in and, and, and see how you do which, you know, I, i, I don't
agree with, but I, again, I, I've seen it.
the small shop thing I think really plays into it.
I, I mean even, even at the peak where I was before, you know,
over, over 40 employees, there was still, but still a small shop.
You know, it, it, you got more bodies, but it's still, it was still very
much a small shop mentality, you know?
and I think that's one of the things that, that, that was always struggled
with there was, is, was breaking out of that small shop mentality
of the, of the five man shop.
That was, that it was, when I started there.
And, and getting to the next level of being, you know, a professional
organization with actual hiring practices and, and, and that sort of thing.
that's, that's something that I know I've witnessed twice now owners struggling
with, of, of getting beyond where they were when they started the organization.
Cause so much of both of those businesses for me was it, it
was the identity of the owner.
You know, the, the, the, the business becomes a reflection of
that owner regardless of what the, the rest of the team tries to do.
, there's always a portion of that owner that's, that's, that's, that's
visible in that, in, in that business.
I, I was, I, I, I listened to the last podcast and you guys were
talking to tj, the, was it gci?
The, the, Yeah, the print company.
Right.
Great example.
I mean, just, just talking to him and hearing him talk about his business, that
that business is a reflection of him.
A hundred percent.
That's, that's the customer experience is everything that TJ says that should be and
is, and talks about that's that business.
Right.
so I think I, I think, you know, ownership, having that influence on
what the business looks like and, and, and basically having a difficulty
of kind of separating themselves out of it and letting the business grow
into what it can be as a bigger.
Standalone entity to get to those larger levels.
I think, you know, people talk about the, the, the hurdle for, for small
businesses, you know, like the first one being like cracking that million
dollar a year mark, and then the next one's the 5 million mark, and then after
that it's 10, and once you hit 10, it kind of goes exponential from there.
at least from what I've heard anyway.
we, we, we really struggled.
We, we hovered around 5 million for, for about 10 years now.
Part of that was, you know, 2008 recession hit.
Part of that was c you know, chalk that up to what it was.
But honestly, I think even if that had all been taken outta the equation, I think
the business would still be, you know, hovering right around five to 6 million a.
Because I don't think it's been able to evolve beyond that
small business mentality yet.
And I, and I think that's a, I think that's a struggle that that ownership is
gonna have there in, in, in doing that.
So I think
Bryant Gillespie: that's like a whole hour long conversation
in and of itself probably.
Oh, yeah.
Getting past this mentality that so often we have, you know, and, and
like admittedly even I like personally have some of those hangups now.
Like growing up we weren't rich and we weren't dirt poor or anything, but like,
even some of the financial decisions that I make personally now, or like,
I'll catch myself like, Oh hey, like, hey, like these beliefs that were
there 10 years ago when I was young and, and tons of credit card debt.
Yeah.
They still bubble up to the surface sometimes.
Mm-hmm.
and totally a hundred percent on the business side.
That identity of the owner can be an asset in the very beginning because
you're driving the whole thing.
Mm-hmm.
, nobody's more invested than you are.
Mm-hmm.
if you can't let go of the reins, and I've, I've seen this inside shops and
other companies that I've worked for.
Mm-hmm.
, nudge Mike A.
Little bit there.
if, if the owner is afraid to let go of the reins a bit, then you,
you stall out growth, you add all this complexity and headache.
let's say for an instance, you spend hours and hours or weeks and weeks
putting all these processes in place.
I know you know what I'm talking about because you set
up your shop box account mm-hmm.
there, your former company and I worked with you on some of that.
Mm-hmm.
and then for the owner or somebody else, higher up to come in and just totally
dis, dis not even pay attention to the process at all, just skip the process.
Uhhuh.
Jeff Sherman: Well, and you know, it, it, you mentioned something there, and it
kind of goes back to Pete's question from earlier, the, the, if, if as an owner.
You are unable to let go of the reins.
And if you're unable to allow the people that you bring in to do what
it is that you brought them in to do, and you, if you're unable to allow
them a certain level of autonomy to help you move that business forward,
then those people will leave.
So we talked about kind of turnover and churn that I, that, that,
that I saw, from an employee base.
And that was one of the biggest things was bringing people in, number one,
without really fully establishing what it was that they were gonna be
doing or what the, what the role was.
Because it was, again, a more of a sales pitch to get them into the
door rather than an actual recruiting and, and, and hiring process.
but two, then once they're there, Not really letting them, do what
it was that they needed to do.
Not empowering them, you know, tasking them, but then coming in and
stepping in and taking things over and not letting them do what they
need to do and not letting them fail.
Being afraid to let them fail, you know, going back to the training
thing, you, you've gotta be able to let people make mistakes.
You have to be willing to absorb that cost in the learning as
part of the learning process.
Cause that is the only way you're gonna learn, is to make the mistakes.
Bryant Gillespie: A hundred percent.
Let me ask you this, Jeff.
Yeah.
I, I was having this conversation with somebody earlier today on one of
my 8,000 meetings that I've had this week, but it, like, what was the, you
guys did a fair bit of fabrication.
Mm-hmm.
, like what was the onboarding time?
And like, what would you peg the estimated cost at to get somebody
up to speed to where they could actually produce signage for you guys?
Jeff Sherman: you, you mean, so you're talking an, an inexperienced
person, a a, a green, a green hire.
Peter Kourounis: Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Basically I, I've got this guy that I was talking to, having a very hard time
finding anybody that's, that's actually skilled in the, the trade mm-hmm.
and, you know, for better or worse, that's the story for a
lot of shop owners that we talk
Jeff Sherman: to.
Sure, sure.
I, I would say a minimum of six months to like, have actual,
like solid contribution value.
You'll probably start generally figure you start breaking even around month
three or four on like, you know, what you're paying them versus what you
might be getting out of them in a, in a, in a contribution to the production.
First three months are a straight loss.
but yeah, I would, I would say six months to get to a point where you're
actually like starting to make some actual profit dollars off the labor
that you're getting out of them.
and to have a, like is every shop is so different on how they run things.
And, and, and I, I've, I've, you know, it's one of those funny things working
for the same place for almost 19 years.
I'm a little bit insulated from how things are done around other shops.
You know, I, my, my exposure to other shops is not.
Nearly what you guys have, you know, working where you did and, and coming in
contact with so many different companies.
So, but so I, I do know that, that some places, you know, they, they'll have
people that just do one particular thing.
Like you've got, you got a guy that just, just applies vinyl.
You got a, another guy that just runs the theban.
You got another guy that, that runs the CNC and what have you.
For us, we had a, we had a finished department that, you
know, they would do everything.
Like we didn't have a painter or two painters.
All of the guys that we had in our finish area would do.
They'd do plastics fab, they'd do vinyl applications, they do
painting, they do prep, they do edge treatments, they do trim capping.
They do, you know, banner lays.
They, they pretty much, you know, were all around signs, fabricators.
So to get somebody from nothing to that kinda level, I mean, you're talking
years, but you know specifically Yeah, I'd say at least six months.
And, and, and then again, part of that is, is how do you approach that?
You know, do, do you do the approach that I'm talking about, where do you send your
fabricator out with your installer, right?
Do you take the time, Do you invest the time to, to give them that
extra, that extra training do?
I mean, for me, sending a fabricator out with an installer is huge because them
getting to see something out in the field or experience something out in the field,
maybe the difference between them building something one way or building something
slightly different so it's easier for install down, down, down the field.
Right?
Bryant Gillespie: Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I know that's one of your claims to fame, Mike, on the sign.
side of things is like, Hey, I know I've been in the field.
I know what it's like to have to improvise on an install because the
designer didn't do his homework.
Mm-hmm.
on the front end.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
That's, that's, that's huge.
I mean, I'm amazed at how many shops don't understand that.
Mm-hmm.
, I mean, I, I think, I think everybody in the shop, what, you know, has anything
to do with the sign from, from sales all the way down through fabrication.
Should always be on site, on an installation, Well, not everyone, but
I mean, they, they definitely need to spend some time out in the field with the
installers because install is a totally different discipline than anything else
that happens under the roof in the shop.
I mean, it's a completely different animal.
Mm-hmm.
and it's, it's really hard to understand until you've actually been
there and done that and seen the shit hit the fan in the field and you.
Think on your feet, Figure out how to fix this.
Cause you know, like remaking the sign isn't an option.
Like it's gotta be on the wall today.
No, we have sands or butts.
How are we gonna do this?
And it, seeing that happen in real time and seeing those guys figure
it out in real time A is amazing.
I mean, like installers in this industry don't, don't get
the praise that they deserve.
Yep.
They are, I don't even know what the right adjective for them is, but they're
miracle workers and a lot of the things that they face in the field could
and should be prevented if everybody else in front of that understood
what the installers had to face.
I'm a, I'm a huge proponent of everybody, especially designers
going out in the field and, and, you know, either participating in
or observing installations because there's so much to learn there that,
you know, in this industry where the rubber hits the road is, is critical.
And that's where it turns, It goes from a fabrication project or an art
project to a construction project.
And at the end of the day, signs are construction projects and, and
thinking about it and looking at it from that perspective is hugely
valuable for, for everybody involved.
So, you know, I'm, I'm a hundred percent team, send everybody out.
And I, you know, I agree with you Jeff, too.
I, I, I saw the same thing at my shop, the three to six
months to really start seeing.
I don't even know at six months if the, if that employee is profitable.
But that's really where they start contributing and making a difference.
And, and, and prior to that six month mark, I mean, you have to look at
it as that's investment time only.
You can't, even if somebody's a really seasoned, experienced sign person,
they're probably not gonna start contributing right away because you
do things a little bit differently.
There's no, there's zero consistency in this industry from one shop to the next.
Right.
Jeff Sherman: Very least your shop's laid out different.
Right.
Michael Riley: Exactly.
Like, I don't, I don't know where this tool is.
It's gonna take me an hour to find it.
yeah.
I, I think that if you're hiring a new employee, like you just
have to look at that first three to six month onboarding time as.
as, as an investment and only an investment.
And, and I think that's where a lot of shop owners fall short is they're,
you know, like you said, they're so desperate to get somebody in that seat
that they, they don't have the forward vision to recognize that this person isn't
going to solve my problems right away.
Yeah.
And it's gonna take a while.
And, and so then that just keeps that business owner in the mindset of, of
doing everything themselves and not delegating, and not giving people the,
the time and space to learn and make mistakes and learn from those mistakes.
Mm-hmm.
. And so then they never learn.
And then that problem is never solved.
It just continues to compound over and over
Jeff Sherman: time.
Mm-hmm.
. Well, so, I mean, you, you all, you, you, you had a franchise, right?
You, you own, you owned a franchise.
You ran a franchise.
I created a franchise.
Yes.
You created a franchise?
Yes.
Oh, okay.
All right.
that's, that's a whole, that's
Bryant Gillespie: why I called him Sign Shop Yoga.
Yeah.
Okay.
Jeff Sherman: That's right.
Edit the franchise.
I, I wasn't, I was not aware of that.
Okay.
Well, good on you, man.
that's, that's a, that's a whole other, that's a whole other, beast there.
And, and Brian, I know you had your shop and Mike, you had your shop.
So having like, did each of you have struggles with,
How did you onboard people?
How did you train people?
Bryant Gillespie: Throw them to the fire?
My friend.
That's, that's the like 95% solution for every shop that we talk to.
Hey, watch this guy work for two weeks, and then hey, you're gonna contribute.
You know?
yeah.
Back in the day, I didn't know what I know now.
Yeah.
You know, we, we.
Tried.
yeah, we were in a super small town, which is always hard to find talented people.
Mm-hmm.
. Even, even not experienced people, just people that had a good work
ethic and could show up on time and willing to learn and put in the hours
because it's, it's not easy work.
Mm-hmm.
and it's, you know, you can't show up hungover at a 30
minutes late and expect to do
Jeff Sherman: good work.
You can Oh, okay.
Sorry.
I mean,
at
Bryant Gillespie: least I could
Jeff Sherman: Unless you're owner.
Unless you're the owner.
You're the owner.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I'll tell you, you know, being in Southern California with, you
know, literally millions upon millions of people in the area, it's still difficult
to find people who wanna work and put in a, a hard day's work and, you know, be
willing to stand on their feet and, you know, this, that, and the other thing.
so I don't, I don't know that a small town is, is, Is is much worse.
But, I think it's just more opportunity for failure out here.
But, yeah, I mean, so like, yeah, and we, and we did our fair amount of that, you
know, to bring, bring them in, let 'em, you know, have, you know, you're gonna
weed vinyl for a week, so let's just, you know, let's just pull a bunch of
vinyl at you and expect you to do that.
And, and that's, that's everybody's onboarding.
And then, then, you know, then you hand them, you know, then you hand them
some sand paper and you have 'em start sanding things and prepping things
for your paint guy and, you know, eventually you get him productive.
I dunno, that's,
Bryant Gillespie: that's fun stuff.
Yeah.
Back in the day, it, it wasn't a, a solid plan know mm-hmm.
, you know, at at shop box.
you know, when I hired folks like Mike or anybody else, I tried to be more strategic
about that and have, like an actual plan.
Like, Hey, here's your first three or four weeks.
Mm-hmm.
but, but honestly should have extended that even further.
Yeah, about two, six months.
So
Michael Riley: if, if, I think that's, that's a tricky comparison though too,
because like something like training people to use software, I mean,
there's a lot of nuances to it that are customer specific, but it, it's cut.
It's a little bit more of a repeat.
Yeah.
It's a little bit more a repeatable process where
there's no creativity, signages.
Bryant Gillespie: I mean,
Michael Riley: you can get creative just to kinda, well, the board . I don't know
if it's the same kind of creativity.
I, you know, I think, I think in a sign shop like it, because
every job is so, so different.
Even if, if this job calls for, you know, metal fabrication and paint and
vinyl and, and assembly and whatever, even though the steps are fairly similar
from sign to sign, like every sign is so different and there's so much, there's,
there's, there's just, there's a huge difference from one side to the next.
And the skills required, even though they're, they're similar on paper.
There's so much thinking on your feet that has to be done.
There's so much figuring it out as you go.
Just by the nature of this, this industry that it's hard, it's hard
to put a really, like a hard and fast like training program in place that.
All the bases.
I mean, you can teach people how to be a good employee and you can
teach 'em the rules of the shop and, and, and the high level stuff.
But at the end of the day, like there's, there's zero substitute for experience.
Mm-hmm.
and just hands on, you know, rolling up your sleeves and doing it and screwing
it up a few times to, to be successful.
And the only, I think the only people that are successful in this business,
cuz this, you know, this business is a trade, and this is true of any trade,
is, is the people that are successful, the ones that are gonna be able to learn
from their mistakes and, and, and piece that, you know, piece of thread together
there and say, Okay, this is what I did.
This is the outcome.
It wasn't correct.
If I go backwards and re-engineer this in my brain, I can figure
out what I did wrong and next time I'm gonna do it this way.
If somebody doesn't have that ability to do that, no matter what, like no
matter how good your training program is, they're not gonna, they're not gonna
be successful in this industry or any.
Right.
You can't teach somebody to be a problem solver and a creative thinker.
That's just that innate, You gotta
Peter Kourounis: ask.
Yeah.
When I was, when I was training owners, or when I was training employees
or recruiting, the, the, the number one bucket for me was they needed
to have this, do whatever it takes mentality, you know, and mm-hmm.
and that, and that kind of speaks to what Mike was just saying, but
also what you said earlier, Jeff, is that, you know, God gave you two ears
in one mouth, so you should listen more than you should talk, Right?
So when you're, when you're interviewing those people, even in that first
interview process, or even on the phone call, the first phone call during the
recruitment, you know, you're, I'm, I'm training my owners and training
my, managers that whoever's doing the rehiring and recruiting, that you
are looking to ask questions to see how they're gonna respond in that.
The ideology of, will they be able to do whatever it takes to get the job done?
Mike said something earlier that they, they, the people that find success are the
ones that can learn from their mistakes.
I'll even second I, I'll echo that, but I'll go a step, I'll go a step
beyond that and that people that are successful have to go into this
knowing that they will make mistakes.
Mm-hmm.
and when they go, when they are making mistakes.
Yes.
Then Mike's, what he said is right, is that they have to
learn from those mistakes.
So whether that's hiring the right people or hiring the wrong people, or
training somebody, or training somebody terribly and then it didn't work out.
They have to be able to make changes, whether it's incremental or drastic.
in that, in that people recruitment topic, right?
Whether it's, whether it is hiring or whether it is training, whatever
it is, you have to be able to learn from, from those mistakes.
One little helpful tip for, for some of the, owners out there just that are
thinking about how to prove that their training could be better or how to make
their training better, there is a great tool out there, called One Huddle.
One Huddle, if you've never heard of it, there based out of Newark,
New Jersey, and they take the train.
Jeff Sherman: They, they have rethought thought
Peter Kourounis: and reimplemented the strategy of how people.
Thinking about training and turned it into games to play.
So they gamified the training platform.
So you can make a course that, say for a graphic designer, you can
make a course of videos to watch.
Maybe you can download them from YouTube and that if you want,
you can only take the easy way.
You can do it that way, or you could make your own and then you're gonna
give a game that you're gonna play.
After watching that video or reading this article or case study and you're
gonna quantify their knowledge, right?
And then here's the best part.
They can compete against other team members, other
employees, other shops even.
And being able to have like that competitive nature
that games normally have.
So I've seen, I've seen a couple of shops go this way.
You know, there are a lot of shops that use like train to develop manuals
and courses and little and pieces and collateral and things like that.
But I've seen many franchises go, or many shops go toward the down
the rabbit hole of gamifying their training to make it more engaging.
Cause like I said earlier, involving your candidate into the process.
By getting them to do something.
Compete is a way of retaining knowledge and, and maybe shortening
that window from what you said earlier about minimum six months.
Maybe we can bring that down with something like this, down to three
months or maybe even sooner, depending on the role and the size of the company.
But for the most part, and I think I was talking to Brian about this
earlier in the week, that there is a, there's a line in the sand right there,
there's a line in the sand between shop owners, shop managers, and, and
then there's franchise owners, right?
Franchise owners, when they buy a franchise.
This is a little bit more in my background here, when they, like I
said, I was telling this to Brian earlier, when you're buying a franchise,
you're not buying, Yeah, okay.
You could be buying their name.
Sure, but if you are, But what you're really buying is all those
systematic approaches that you and I are discussing that shop owners on the
other side of the fence don't have, They have to invest time and money into
designing and making it themselves.
Whereas, okay, all of those playbooks, all of those manuals, all of those
onboarding processes, training on how to recruit, training on how to hire,
what interview questions to ask, what job descriptions you should write out,
you know, all of that has been done.
All you gotta do is just take it, change a couple of variables and throw it out
there in the universe for your shop.
And that's where the franchising piece my background comes into is that when
I'm train, when I'm working with shop owners or shop managers on how to improve
their business or their role, It's often in developing these strategies that you
find in this sector of the business.
Franchising in the signed business gets a bad name.
We've had guests on this show that have made fun of the fact of,
you know, these little franchise locations, like fast signs.
They, they just do these little stickers.
I think
Bryant Gillespie: the hosts have made the host made,
Peter Kourounis: but, but what you're not seeing behind that fence might also
add some value to what you're saying is that if you are a shop that's struggling
in these areas, that you don't have the time to, to, to coach or onboard
or develop those training manuals or playbooks, whatever you wanna call them,
that, that there is an avenue for you.
There is an avenue to go down to obtain all of that.
obviously it costs money.
It's gonna, it's it, but if you don't have time, then you have money.
If you don't have money, then you must have time.
So, For those of us that are, that.
Well, that's what I was getting at.
If you don't have time or if you don't have time or money,
go work for somebody else.
Jeff Sherman: Don't Yeah.
Don't, don't start a business.
Yes.
Yeah.
You know, it's interesting.
I, something occurred to me as you were talking about that, Pete, it, we
talk about learning from our mistakes.
You know, I, I wanna say there's a, there's a value also.
You need to be willing and able to learn from your successes.
You know, if you, if you have that employee that takes off, spend
time, sit down with them and, and figure out what you did right.
And then try to replicate that, you know, so, so, so often we only focus
on the mistakes, the areas of failure.
and we lost Mike.
Oh, . We had . That's like, what's back there?
. . So it's so awesome.
It's
Bryant Gillespie: a guy in a burrito suit holding a . It's
Jeff Sherman: something you just don't see.
That's, that's Mike.
Thank you.
guy in a burrito suit holding a cat.
. Michael Riley: My life is very strange.
Yes.
Jeff Sherman: Mine just got a little bit surreal as well.
But yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, learn, don't, don't just focus on the failures,
Learn from the mistakes, but figure out what, what went, what went right.
Why, you know, if, if, if you find somebody.
Having a moment where they make a really solid decision to change something
or do something, ask 'em why they did it, find out what their thought
process was, figure out what went into building that thought processes and
see what you can do to spread that.
You know, just to, just the thought off of this.
Cause like I said, it's so easy to go negative so often, you know?
Michael Riley: Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: You've obviously, you were at your former company for
Jeff Sherman: 19 years, you said?
Almost 8, 18, 18 years.
11 months and yeah, just, just at 11 months.
Six
Michael Riley: hours.
Yes.
Three days.
Yes, exactly.
Bryant Gillespie: and what, what is, obviously that's a long time.
Mm-hmm.
especially two people in the this day and age.
Like I was talking with somebody else yesterday that they mentioned something
about, millennials think that that three years is a long time in a job.
Mm-hmm.
, what did they do right to keep you there for 19 years
Jeff Sherman: ish?
Well, the, the, the role developed and expanded to take advantage of my
skill set, I think is the, you know, it was recognized where my strengths
were and I was allowed to apply my strengths into different areas.
I was, for a long time, I was allowed to contribute and, and have a voice.
so that the kind of contradictory to what a lot of people that, like we were talking
about churn, when they kind of come in and then, and then go out, a lot of times
it's because they're not allowed to, you know, have their voice heard, you know,
and, and, and anybody, I don't care who it is, I don't care if it's the guy that
you brought in to, to sweep the floors.
You know, he, he's, he's got a brain in his head.
He's gonna have some idea about something.
Giving people a, an actual valid and, and and effective forum, or even just an
ability to know that they can be heard and respected and valued as part for, for the
contribution that they bring that's gonna, that's gonna buy you your longevity.
It really is.
Mm-hmm.
money helps.
Sure.
You know, a lot of owners think, you know, Well, I just need to give
raises or bonuses or this kinda stuff.
Yeah, Money helps, but it only buys you so much.
It really does.
You know, I would not have, It doesn't buy loyalty.
No, it doesn't.
It buys you time.
But you know, I mean, you really want to be paying somebody top
dollar if they're not loyal to you or if they're not actually.
I'm gonna use the word committed to the success of the company.
You know?
Sure.
They might be going through the motions.
Sure.
They might be doing a certain amount of work for you, but, you know,
it's, it's the whole hearts and minds thing, and really that, that's all
about, it's all about validation and it's all about acknowledgement
and, and, and, and contribution.
You know, I heard something a while back that was like the, the, the
best way to get somebody connected to you is to have them do you a favor.
you would think you'll do the other way around.
You do them a favor and then they're connect.
No, it's the other way around.
You have them do you a favor and that, that ties them to you.
I, I think from a business perspective, it's the same way.
Get, get them to contribute, get them to know that they're contributing,
acknowledge that they're contributing and they're gonna wanna contribute more.
There it, there's, there's self, you know, people can, can get self worth from that.
And ultimately, in addition to, in addition to money, in, in a way of, of
living, this is what we spend the majority of our waking hours doing every day.
And if we don't feel as though we're actually contributing or
doing something of value, why do it?
Bryant Gillespie: Amen.
Yeah.
Couldn't have said that better.
I think
Michael Riley: that's the best advice.
Come outta that.
No, I, I totally, I mean that I, I've kind of beat on that horse until it's,
it's dead quite a few times too, Jeff.
I mean, and I, I totally agree.
Like, employees have a life and they're human beings just like us,
and they, everybody wants to feel like their existence is for something.
Mm-hmm.
, everybody who wants to feel like, you know, whatever they're doing,
whether it's vacuuming the floor, Cleaning up a cat accident on a chair.
Mm-hmm.
, or making a sign like, Right, Like they wanna feel like what they're doing is
contributing to the bigger picture.
That's just part of human nature.
Some people don't, some people really genuinely don't care and those people
shouldn't be working for you anyway.
But talking, you know, all things being equal, like all employees want to feel
valid and valued, and they want to feel like the work that they're putting in is
having an effect on the bigger picture.
Mm-hmm.
and I, I agree, like the fastest way to ruin employee morale and drive off, off
really good employees is to not make them feel valid, not hear them, and not
give them a platform or a forum to voice their ideas and concerns and opinions.
Mm.
And, and, and not genuinely listening to them and, and you know,
running with, with what you hear.
I mean, that's, I think that alone is what separates a good boss from a bad boss.
I mean, if, if there was one thing I had to say that that really is
the differentiator, it's, it's a boss's ability to treat their
employees like human beings.
Mm-hmm.
and not
Jeff Sherman: cog in a wheel.
Well and you know, it, it, it from a weird perspective too, and this is, you
know, like we've talked so much about retention of employees, one of the things
that you can do that will actually tender the ones that you wanna keep is holding
on too hard to the ones that shouldn't be there or don't wanna be there.
That's the other thing, you know, you have to be, and I struggled this
with this just as a manager, cuz.
Again, it's, you know, the whole onboarding and hiring and recruiting
process can be so cumbersome and so time consuming and so, so energy draining
that you really don't wanna go through it unless you absolutely have to.
So you, you, you will find it's easy to, to kinda like grab onto that
employee and try to hold onto them and squeeze onto them for dear life.
Like, Don't leave me, you know, you know, I need, I need you to succeed.
You know, But, but you know, you have to, you have to be willing to, to, to, again,
you have to be willing to fail, right?
You have to be willing to let them fail, and you're gonna have people
that you bring in that leave, you know, for whatever reason.
You have to be okay with that.
You have and, and, and you have to let the rest of your staff
know that you're okay with that.
Yep.
So that it, it's a, it's a, it's a living, breathing organism rather
than kind of this stagnant pond that you're, that that, that you
could potentially create, you know?
Michael Riley: Yeah, totally.
Say that again.
You have to let them fail.
Yeah.
Everybody repeated with
Jeff Sherman: me.
You have to.
Yeah.
You have to let them, you have to let them fail
Bryant Gillespie: now.
Now we're like getting into like a seance.
Yeah, I like it.
Well, there's
Michael Riley: a, there's an advertising agency here in, in
Portland called Wyden Kennedy.
They're, they're very famous ad agency.
I don't know if you guys have heard of them or not.
They, they're responsible for like all of Nike's advertising, and they're the ones
that came up with the gist slogan in.
They have a really amazing office here in Portland and they have
this giant wall on it where they did this kind of art installation.
There's like 150,000 like clear thumbtacks or push pins on the wall.
And they made this thing that spells out the words fail harder.
and it, it's a really, Sorry, I just got distract.
Can we hold on a second?
Jeff Sherman: Mm-hmm.
Bryant Gillespie: So
Jeff Sherman: it's the sign husband
. Bryant Gillespie: Oh, sign husband.
Oh,
Peter Kourounis: he makes an appearance . That's
Jeff Sherman: great.
That's fantastic.
My,
Michael Riley: my, my cat shit on the chair.
That's why I had to get up and take her outta here.
I'm like, I'm sitting here talking and I'm like smelling
like, what is that awful smell?
And then she took a, the chair, it's like a common occurrence in my life.
So I was texting.
It's
not
Bryant Gillespie: a podcast episode until one of Mike's cat shit's on the chair.
. Michael Riley: How many times has that happened now?
At least three, I think.
yeah.
It used to happen all the time when I was doing like shot box meetings too,
and like she has a habit of walking across my desk and then she's, she's
Jeff Sherman: dropped a few right on computer
Michael Riley: She's an elderly cat with irritable bowel syndrome.
It's, she keeps me.
Okay.
and sorry about that.
Anyway, there's a ad agency here in, in Portland and they have this
big wall that says, Fail harder.
And it's kind of like their, their mantra, like they're, they encourage
everybody to take as many risks as they can, you know, creatively with
clients, really push the envelope and, and, and actually hope you fail.
I mean, that's really part of their culture is, is building failure into
it because so many great things come outta learning from, from, from failure.
Mm-hmm.
and, and it, I, I see so many business owners, especially in this.
you know, that, that tries so hard to discourage failure.
And they see, they see somebody making a mistake as, as a, I think, as a reflection
on them as a business owner, but all of us are prone to making mistakes.
It's just part of being a human being is you're gonna screw up stuff.
You're not gonna do everything.
Right.
And, and none of us would be where we were if we hadn't learned from our
mistakes that we made in the past.
Mm-hmm.
. But as a business owner, for some reason, it seems like there's just like this
innate, like just disregard for for that like universal truism that I'm allowed
to fail, but because I'm paying you.
You better damn sure not fail on my time.
Right?
And that's such a, that's such a huge mistake that
business owners make, you know?
Whereas you should be encouraging them, like I said, to push the boundaries
and step outside of their comfort zone.
And they're probably gonna fall flat on their face the first couple times.
And you have to expect that and encourage it, because that's how these people
grow and expand and become better at what they're trying to, to do.
And, and without an environment that actively encourages failure to a point,
I, people can only grow to a point.
I mean, obviously there's a point where like, if you're just constantly doing
the same thing over and over again and messing it up every time, like that's,
that's different than the failure I think that we're talking about here, right?
We're, if somebody just isn't good at their job and they're just not
paying attention and making stupid mistakes, that's a totally different
thing, and that person should go.
But if they've had the opportunity, I mean, given the opportunity to,
to try and fail and try again.
And figure it out and get a little better each time and improve then that, that
type of failure is good and it's positive and it's, it's it's moving forward.
Yeah.
Jeff Sherman: Yeah.
The, the, the failure thing requires, we were talking about with, with the
training thing, just like that, with, with the, with the failure thing.
It requires the right kind of response and follow up to a failure.
You know, some sort of, some sort of questioning and not, not an interrogation,
you know, why did you do this type thing, but you know what, what, what happened?
Okay.
What do you know?
Why do you think that happened?
Why do you think that resulted the way it did?
Walk them through that mental process.
You talked about, Mike, of, let's go back through the chain here, figure out
reverse engineer this and think about how we could have done it differently
and what, what might have been the better result, you know, as a result of doing
that, that that's, that's key to it too.
You know, It can't just be.
Unbridled failure all over the place.
, there, there has to be, there has to be some feedback loop in there.
Right.
And it has to be, it has to be done in the right tone and the right attitude
and the right, and the right approach.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Right.
So I've got, I've got another question for you, Jeff, and then I, you know,
maybe this will kind of bring us full circle and try to wrap this up, I guess.
Sure.
what was like the, what was the final straw or what, what was the
series of events that led you to the end of the, your relationship?
And just to, to preface that, like, the reason I asked why
you stuck around so long mm-hmm.
was, I, I've noticed there's, of our listeners, there's a lot of smaller shops.
Maybe it's one owner, maybe it's a, an owner and a couple employees,
where at some point in time the owner was like, Hey, I'm gonna grow this
business and I'm gonna bring somebody.
Like you into the fold.
Mm-hmm.
and I, I say this because I, I respect your knowledge base, your
experience, you know, of all the conversations we've had mm-hmm.
among these guys, Pete and Mike, you're probably one of the other
most knowledgeable guys in this industry that I've spoken to.
Mm-hmm.
, so, You've stayed with that company for 19 years, obviously
something worked there for a while.
Mm-hmm.
. But these other guys that I see that, hey, I taught this guy
everything I know about the business.
And then what did he do?
He turned around and left and started his own shop across the street.
Mm-hmm.
. And now like that either that trust is gone or he is scared to try again, but
the business is running him over still.
Mm-hmm.
, you know, five years later, 10 years later from that.
So what was the, You're that guy, that promising number two guy that mm-hmm.
stepped in, helped grow the business.
Mm-hmm.
doing awesome things.
Mm-hmm.
. So what caused you to leave?
Jeff Sherman: Yeah.
well I, I want to touch on one thing you said there for a second and Cause
it's, it's applicable to my scenario.
Not everybody.
Wants to be a business owner.
Not everybody should be a business owner.
Okay.
I, I think we can all agree on that, , and, and early in my conversations
in my development, you talked about me being the number two and early in
my conversations with the owner of the company I worked for, there was
discussion, very serious discussion about transitional plans, about eventually
me being the per, you know, taking the business over from him, you know, when
it came time for him to retire and ways that we could have worked that out,
you know, mechanically from a financial perspective, et cetera, et cetera.
and I had to do some serious self-evaluation.
As to whether or not I wanted to be a business owner.
And the bottom line is, I don't, you, you, you know, the,
it, it takes a special breed.
It takes a, I think first and foremost for me, the thing that I know that I don't
have is the comfort with, personal risk.
I'm not a gambler.
I hate Las Vegas.
I don't like the idea of potentially losing money.
I'm not comfortable with it . So I shouldn't own a business.
Cause there is a possibility for that.
Very much so.
There and, and, you know, I, it, it's just, that was the,
that was the thing for me.
So it, it was never, for me, it was never a, a, a factor of getting, you
know, building myself up, building my skill set to a point where I
felt like I could take what I'd learned and go start my own thing.
That was never, that was never the, the issue there.
for me, ultimately it became a point of.
at a certain point, I, my voice too stopped being heard.
We got to certain points where I was trying to work with the owner to make core
changes on certain front end processes in how the business was being run.
Because all, all of, all of the downstream, at a certain point, all of
the improvements that we were trying to make on the design team and the production
team and the installation team, and all of the processes, you know, on the
operational side of the business, we hit a wall in improving those processes because
of how we were taking orders and how we were processing quotes and how we were
bringing things into the, into the shop.
And at a certain point, I started focusing on trying to implement
change there and what was met with, I'm gonna say inability.
It's not, maybe not knowing, unwillingness, but at least an
inability to make that change and to allow me to influence change there.
And so at that point, I stopped being valued.
I stopped contributing and developing and growing, and I started to stagnate.
And then I got C and ended up in the hospital and had two weeks
in the hospital to by myself to do nothing but self reflect.
And then another three months on my couch on oxygen to.
Be separated from the shop environment and think about how, you know, my work life
was going and how things were going there.
And, very quickly realized I was unhappy and, and, and need, needed to find some,
some other avenue, some other place.
you know, ultimately I will say, the last day was not my choice.
The business, you know, needs changed and, and, and I was let go.
I didn't leave myself.
which was surprising.
but, you know, I, I'd been, look, I've been looking for, for months,
so it, it, it was inevitable, I think is really at that point.
But yeah, to answer your question, it was about, it was about finally
getting to a point where even after that amount of time, I was
no longer heard, I was no longer.
And because I was no longer heard, I was no longer valued regardless of how
many times I was disconnected, how, how many, regardless of how many times
I was told, Oh, you're so important.
And, you know, you know, I value what you tell me.
If your actions don't back that up.
If you're not listening to the things that I'm telling you and, and the things
that I know need to happen, you know, in my heart of hearts, I know we need
to do this, but we're not doing it.
What value am I bringing?
Why am I here?
You
Bryant Gillespie: know, Boom.
So that's, that's Jeff for everybody listening, that's Jeff dropping
the truth on you right now.
, if you're a business owner and you've got team members that are, are valuable
to your organization and you don't let them be heard or feel heard, or
feel valued, they're gonna leave you.
Mm-hmm.
they're gonna check out, at the very least, they're gonna check out of work,
and they're gonna go through the motions.
And if you're not paying attention, you're not gonna notice it.
And then, then they're gonna leave.
Mm-hmm.
, and you're gonna be in that six month cycle that we just talked about all
over again, or longer, especially if you're trying to replace an ops
manager or somebody that has a ton of experience on how your entire operation
Michael Riley: runs.
Speaking from experience.
Bryant
? Jeff Sherman: No, not at all.
None.
Not at all.
Wink,
Bryant Gillespie: wink.
So
Michael Riley: doesn't sound at all like you've
Bryant Gillespie: said that here, I've, I've caught you throwing
some shade from time to time.
So
, Michael Riley: So, so Jeff, I, we started this conversation off and you said that
you're in a, a position for the first time in a long time, where you can really sit
back and think about where you want your career to go in the future, and you have a
little bit more control and say over that.
So, What do you see coming down the line for you?
What, what do you, what do you want to do for the rest of your
career in the sign industry?
Jeff Sherman: You know, I, I, I'm looking at things where I
can be a little more creative.
there's so much opportunity and possibility within
the sign industry itself.
I've been in a box of architectural signage for so long and
specifically, Signage for like high rise office and, and hospitals.
That tends to be pretty cook.
You know, that's a small box to be in.
You know, there's not a lot of creativity involved in that kind of stuff.
Generally speaking, you can stretch out a little bit here and there, but, you know,
ADA code and fire regulations and all that kinda stuff, really, you know, they, they
really bring those walls in real tight.
So, I'm, I'm looking at things with, with, well, number one, with
where I'm at right now, my options are pretty, I, I'm looking bigger
organizations, you know, places where, maybe they've got, processes in place.
They darn well better have processes in place, but places
where I can come in and, and, and.
Bring a voice that's gonna be heard.
That's the biggest thing.
And I don't even care where it is.
I mean, I'm, I'm looking, I'm looking into design stuff.
I'm looking into project management stuff.
I'm looking into operation stuff.
I'm looking into department manager stuff, general manager stuff.
Heck, I've even talked to a couple people about doing sales.
it's that, you know, it's that chief cook and bottle washer thing.
And me having been, you know, for a small shop for so long and having
touched every single aspect of that business, you know, my biggest thing
again is where can I contribute?
Can, can my voice be heard?
You know, and, and where can it be heard?
That's, that's my thing.
You know, No, no amount of money is gonna offset that.
Well, maybe a certain amount, but we won't get into that
you know, I've gotta make a living, let's put it that way.
I do live in California.
So, there's that factor.
But yeah, it, it really is, It's, for me, it's about where can,
where can my voice be heard?
Where, where can I bring value?
And that's what all of my conversations to this point have been centered around.
You know, you look at my resume, it's like, it's a hodgepodge.
It's all one, it's, it's all one company, really.
But all of the things that I've done within that company, it's,
you, you name it, I've done it.
So, you know, people ask me when I, when I, when I approach these sign shops,
is, you know, what do you wanna do?
It's like, Hey, tell me where your need is, but tell me, tell me what that biggest
hole is and let's see if I can fit it.
Let's see if I can fill it.
It's an interesting spot to be, honestly.
Michael Riley: It's a difficult spot to be too, cause it's like, Employers don't know
what to do with that . Well, like, it,
Jeff Sherman: it requires, it's, it's a different kind of conversation.
It's, it's a, it's a much deeper conversation than the, than, than the, I'm
gonna post an ad on whatever, you know, on, on Glassdoor and, and have somebody
send me their resume and, and sit, sit down and do an interview with them.
It's a very much different conversation.
I've, I've literally been cold calling myself to, to the different
sign companies around the area.
You know, reaching, reaching out, you know, doing all, looking at
all the websites and reaching out and, you know, saying, Hey, I,
I've been in this business, you know, 20 plus years, let's talk.
And having, you know, our two hour, three hour conversations
with business owners around.
You know, what do you do?
Where, where are your, where are your, where are your challenges?
And can I bring something to help you with those challenges?
Michael Riley: Boom.
Awesome.
I wish you would move someplace cheaper like Iowa, because I'd, I'd love to have
you as part of my team, but I can't even come close to Ing . Yeah, Sorry man.
If you ever move to the Midwest, lemme know
Bryant Gillespie: Jeff.
Always a pleasure, man.
I always enjoy catching up.
for any sign company that's out there that wants to talk to Jeff for two and a half,
three hours, , if you're looking for an impact guy, you've got a hold to fill.
Jeff Sherman: it, it, it hit, hit up Jeff, Will it?
? Yeah.
Hey, Praising yeah.
I don't, I don't, I don't how that with recruitment tool, but, Okay.
Right on.
Yeah.
You, I appreciate Yeah.
. Yeah.
Our
Michael Riley: next cease and desist letter.
Bryant Gillespie: Another one.
Another one coming.
It never fails.
All right, guys.
let's wrap this one up.
Right.
Rapid fire takeaways.
Peter,
Peter Kourounis: you gotta, you gotta stop talking on an interview.
You gotta listen more than you talk.
That's gonna be the biggest takeaway.
It's biggest takeaway for this episode, specifically for those
that are asking about how do we, how could I hire the right people
in order to hire the right people?
You need to find the right people in order to find the right people.
You need to let them talk.
You need to let them advertise themselves.
Sell themselves, not sell yourself.
Mike
Bryant Gillespie: the sign.
Timmy.
Changa.
. No, I just like, it's got a ring to it, man.
Michael Riley: Sign.
Does it?
Can you hear yourself?
I think that, the biggest takeaway for me is something that, that, that Jeff
just kind of got done seeing, and that, that is, this is a guy that's got as
much experience in this industry, is anybody you're ever gonna encounter
has, And he's in a way got a buffet of choices in front of him for where
his career goes in front of him.
And what he just said is that he wants.
He doesn't care what he does, whether it's design, fabrication, installation,
sales, or whatever it may be, whatever role that is, Jeff can do it.
And he doesn't care.
He wants to be in a role where he can contribute, he can move the needle, and
his voice is heard, think, and everybody needs to let that soak in that this,
he, his experience doesn't matter.
He just wants to have a voice wherever he's at.
And that's huge.
And that's true of, I think, every single employee out there with a few exceptions.
And I, I think that's a really critical takeaway for everybody
to, to really let that soak in.
Mm-hmm.
, a
Bryant Gillespie: hundred percent.
Jeff, anything else
Jeff Sherman: you wanna share?
Oh, I think I've said enough.
I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna echo Pete thing and, and say, , you know,
listen more, talk less, and I'm gonna heed my own advice and, and
listen more and talk less right now.
Bryant Gillespie: Perfect.
Well, for me, yeah, Mike said it best man.
Uh, employees want to be valued.
They want to feel like they're part of the organization.
They're not family.
They're, I always, kinda struggle when say, Hey, we're a family here because
we're not like, I have a family.
This is, they're why I do part of what I do, but also I wanna feel valued.
We all wanna feel special, for us, younger generation.
I don't even know why I say younger, like getting ready to turn 35.
So , I wake up with neck pain every day.
So I, I guess I've lost the, the permission to use younger at this
Jeff Sherman: moment.
It doesn't get better.
Bryant, just, just so you know, it doesn't get better.
, Michael Riley: I.
The next five years for you, or you're in for a world like those are
the , 35 to 40 were the hardest for me.
, the aging that happens in that short amount of time is incredible.
Guys, I, I
Jeff Sherman: look forward to meeting.
I, I, I just turned 48 2 weeks ago, so Yeah, I, I'm, I'm, I'm feeling
a whole other level of mm-hmm.
. Mm-hmm.
. Yeah.
I
Michael Riley: appreciate that.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Absolutely.
All right guys.
great episode.
If you would like to be a guest on the Better Sign Shop podcast, what do you do?
you email, Hey, at better sign shop.com.
Check us out.
what else do we have?
What else are we supposed to say?
Mike?
Michael Riley: join the Facebook group and join the Mastermind group.
Yeah, it's worth your time.
Yeah.
If you're a
Bryant Gillespie: sign shop owner, check out our Better Sign Shop community.
It is a private, safe space.
We screen everybody for ownership, so it's just owners there.
Talk about whatever you want.
Vent a little.
Come chat with us.
What else?
Anything else?
Nope, that's it.
. Thank you guys.
Thanks for listening to us ramble on.
Jeff Sherman: Awesome.
We appreciate you.
Thanks for having me, guys.
Appreciate it.
Thank you, sir.
Take it easy.
Peter Kourounis: All right guys,
Bryant Gillespie: we'll see.
Jeff Sherman: If you liked this episode, make sure you hit subscribe to get
all the latest episodes and check out our website, better sign shop.com.
Get free resources and helpful tools on growing your shop.
Thanks for listening.