1
00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,290
Jeff Sherman: Learn how to build a
better sign and print shop from a

2
00:00:04,290 --> 00:00:09,240
few crusty sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

3
00:00:09,900 --> 00:00:14,520
Conversations and advice on
pricing, sales, marketing,

4
00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:17,280
workflow, growth, and more.

5
00:00:18,270 --> 00:00:24,440
You're listening to The Better Sign Shop
podcast with your hosts, Peter Kaunas,

6
00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:27,780
Michael Riley and Bryant Gillespie.

7
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,590
Bryant Gillespie: Right guys, we
are back with the next edition

8
00:00:34,650 --> 00:00:36,750
of the Better Sign Shop podcast.

9
00:00:36,780 --> 00:00:42,280
As always, I've got my colleague,
the side shop, Yoda, Peter Kaunas.

10
00:00:43,050 --> 00:00:43,680
Hi Pete.

11
00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:46,350
Jeff Sherman: What's up everybody?

12
00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,270
Peter Kourounis: Nice
to see everyone again.

13
00:00:49,140 --> 00:00:53,250
Bryant Gillespie: And we also
actually have Mike the signed

14
00:00:53,250 --> 00:00:55,620
burrito costume with us this week.

15
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:56,680
Thank you.

16
00:00:57,860 --> 00:00:58,720
You look good in

17
00:00:58,720 --> 00:00:59,120
Michael Riley: that man.

18
00:01:00,135 --> 00:01:00,495
Do I?

19
00:01:00,495 --> 00:01:01,335
Is it working for me?

20
00:01:01,635 --> 00:01:05,712
Bryant Gillespie: It's, I could see
why your wife married you, you stud.

21
00:01:05,742 --> 00:01:06,912
and then we, I've been
saying this for years.

22
00:01:07,182 --> 00:01:11,226
We've also got a special guest, an
old friend of ours, Jeff Sherman,

23
00:01:11,916 --> 00:01:13,146
out on the West Coast, Jeff.

24
00:01:14,256 --> 00:01:14,376
You

25
00:01:14,376 --> 00:01:14,526
all

26
00:01:14,526 --> 00:01:15,726
Jeff Sherman: signed, Jeff?

27
00:01:16,326 --> 00:01:16,746
Hello.

28
00:01:16,746 --> 00:01:17,466
Hello, Hello.

29
00:01:17,466 --> 00:01:18,426
How was everybody doing?

30
00:01:19,866 --> 00:01:20,886
Thanks for having me in, guys.

31
00:01:21,036 --> 00:01:21,486
Appreciate it.

32
00:01:21,856 --> 00:01:22,416
Michael Riley: Right.

33
00:01:22,506 --> 00:01:23,376
Happy to have you on.

34
00:01:24,006 --> 00:01:24,636
Yeah, we're excited.

35
00:01:25,226 --> 00:01:25,576
So,

36
00:01:25,576 --> 00:01:29,706
Jeff Sherman: so the, the signed burrito
thing, I, I, I listened to your last

37
00:01:29,706 --> 00:01:34,280
episode and, you had people, you, you
put out a challenge for people to come

38
00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,470
up with new nicknames for, for Mike.

39
00:01:37,220 --> 00:01:41,000
So I, i, I, I hope you don't mind,
but I took the opportunity to, to

40
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,090
try to throw a couple together in
preparation for today's session.

41
00:01:44,095 --> 00:01:47,348
So, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna kind
of throw those out there for you, Paul.

42
00:01:47,353 --> 00:01:47,858
I can't wait.

43
00:01:47,858 --> 00:01:48,428
Let's hear it.

44
00:01:49,418 --> 00:01:51,248
Michael Riley: I don't wanna
be the burrito anymore, so.

45
00:01:51,308 --> 00:01:51,638
Okay,

46
00:01:51,638 --> 00:01:53,138
Jeff Sherman: well,
well save me, Rescue me.

47
00:01:53,138 --> 00:01:55,557
Well start starting with that one.

48
00:01:55,557 --> 00:01:57,955
I'm actually just gonna go
with the sign Chimichanga.

49
00:01:57,970 --> 00:02:00,580
Brian, you know, you, you got,
you got the sign, you got the

50
00:02:00,580 --> 00:02:04,270
signed burrito, but I really think
Mike's a bit, cru ears in that.

51
00:02:05,030 --> 00:02:05,380
Oh,

52
00:02:09,340 --> 00:02:10,260
Kimmy Changa.

53
00:02:10,770 --> 00:02:11,380
Bryant Gillespie: Touche.

54
00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:12,860
Chi Changa.

55
00:02:12,865 --> 00:02:14,240
Okay, That's Nu Uno.

56
00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:15,218
Jeff Sherman: All right.

57
00:02:15,247 --> 00:02:16,717
we're, we're just gonna go simple.

58
00:02:16,722 --> 00:02:19,267
Sign Master General Sign

59
00:02:19,267 --> 00:02:20,107
Michael Riley: Master General.

60
00:02:20,377 --> 00:02:20,867
Bryant Gillespie: Okay.

61
00:02:21,247 --> 00:02:22,267
Sign Master General.

62
00:02:22,477 --> 00:02:24,187
Mike, you like that one or no?

63
00:02:24,187 --> 00:02:24,277
Yes.

64
00:02:25,987 --> 00:02:28,897
Let's, Mike, you gotta give, like,
you gotta rate each one of these.

65
00:02:30,162 --> 00:02:30,582
Michael Riley: Right.

66
00:02:30,582 --> 00:02:32,082
Like, I like Chi Cho.

67
00:02:32,082 --> 00:02:35,502
I like that one, but I,
Let's back up Sign Chi Choa.

68
00:02:35,502 --> 00:02:37,122
Let's start with the Chi Cho.

69
00:02:37,122 --> 00:02:38,802
That one's, It's so good.

70
00:02:39,942 --> 00:02:41,712
. 
Jeff Sherman: I don't, I don't, Well,

71
00:02:41,712 --> 00:02:43,932
Michael Riley: well, I don't, I
don't wanna like it, but I do.

72
00:02:44,892 --> 00:02:46,190
Jeff Sherman: Let's, sign Master General.

73
00:02:46,195 --> 00:02:47,240
What, what are your thoughts on that?

74
00:02:48,140 --> 00:02:49,340
Michael Riley: I'm like 50 50 on that one.

75
00:02:49,340 --> 00:02:51,980
I like it, It sounds more
official, but like, it's not as

76
00:02:51,985 --> 00:02:52,490
Jeff Sherman: appropriate.

77
00:02:52,850 --> 00:02:52,970
Okay.

78
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,490
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna go to
the weakest one next, but it's, you

79
00:02:55,490 --> 00:02:57,230
know, topical, the fine husband.

80
00:02:57,230 --> 00:02:58,460
Congrats on the recent wedding.

81
00:02:59,270 --> 00:02:59,810
Well, thank you.

82
00:03:00,110 --> 00:03:01,940
Yeah, that one's, that one's good.

83
00:03:01,945 --> 00:03:04,700
We, we know we're all married
to our business, you know,

84
00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:05,900
as, as sick as that is.

85
00:03:05,914 --> 00:03:08,284
we'll, we'll, we'll go old school.

86
00:03:08,649 --> 00:03:09,939
Sign your Wednesday

87
00:03:14,049 --> 00:03:14,609
Right?

88
00:03:14,889 --> 00:03:15,489
It was little

89
00:03:19,569 --> 00:03:22,599
And then, and then I, you know, I
have to throw this out cuz I was

90
00:03:22,599 --> 00:03:24,309
listening on my headphones yesterday.

91
00:03:24,376 --> 00:03:26,154
I'm gonna call you the sign Podcast.

92
00:03:26,159 --> 00:03:26,904
Barry White.

93
00:03:27,034 --> 00:03:27,524
Dude.

94
00:03:27,534 --> 00:03:30,444
Do those do cones?

95
00:03:30,504 --> 00:03:30,924
Mad

96
00:03:34,484 --> 00:03:35,044
White.

97
00:03:36,514 --> 00:03:38,084
Michael Riley: I, ok.

98
00:03:38,089 --> 00:03:38,524
Those are

99
00:03:40,044 --> 00:03:42,804
Bryant Gillespie: the signed
shop, Berry White, the signed

100
00:03:42,804 --> 00:03:45,174
podcast Berry White Mike.

101
00:03:45,474 --> 00:03:47,004
I'm trying to resist the podcast.

102
00:03:47,214 --> 00:03:47,724
Berry White.

103
00:03:49,284 --> 00:03:50,334
Give us a few bars.

104
00:03:50,334 --> 00:03:50,544
Dude,

105
00:03:52,404 --> 00:03:53,604
Michael Riley: I'm try,
Well, I'm trying really hard.

106
00:03:53,604 --> 00:03:55,134
Not, I'm trying to think
of a Barry White song.

107
00:03:55,134 --> 00:03:57,024
My brain just went like
totally spaced outta me.

108
00:03:57,024 --> 00:03:57,744
Hang on, let me look at some.

109
00:03:58,489 --> 00:04:01,459
Jeff Sherman: My first, my
last, my everything went . Yeah.

110
00:04:01,459 --> 00:04:01,849
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

111
00:04:02,449 --> 00:04:04,609
I didn't, he he just got married.

112
00:04:04,609 --> 00:04:06,079
Like, like, come on now.

113
00:04:06,919 --> 00:04:08,749
Did you not get, I know you'd
think I would, You didn't play

114
00:04:08,749 --> 00:04:10,129
any very white at the reception.

115
00:04:10,759 --> 00:04:11,329
Michael Riley: We didn't.

116
00:04:11,869 --> 00:04:12,859
Jeff Sherman: I don't remember.

117
00:04:13,999 --> 00:04:14,519
Oh, that's good.

118
00:04:14,709 --> 00:04:15,319
That's

119
00:04:15,559 --> 00:04:16,519
Michael Riley: a good sign, right?

120
00:04:16,579 --> 00:04:17,929
Yeah, No, I, I don't know.

121
00:04:17,929 --> 00:04:20,569
Like I, that's a tough one.

122
00:04:20,899 --> 00:04:25,759
I really like, I, I don't want
to be a Mexican, you know, menu

123
00:04:25,759 --> 00:04:26,199
Jeff Sherman: item.

124
00:04:27,459 --> 00:04:28,439
I'm tired to

125
00:04:28,439 --> 00:04:29,119
Michael Riley: that, but the chi

126
00:04:29,369 --> 00:04:30,229
Jeff Sherman: is really funny.

127
00:04:30,239 --> 00:04:30,639
Like

128
00:04:31,609 --> 00:04:35,059
Michael Riley: I can't help
it . It's totally random.

129
00:04:35,059 --> 00:04:35,299
It makes

130
00:04:35,299 --> 00:04:35,659
Jeff Sherman: no sense at it.

131
00:04:35,659 --> 00:04:36,829
Peter Kourounis: Definitely has my vote.

132
00:04:36,829 --> 00:04:37,609
I think that

133
00:04:37,614 --> 00:04:43,369
Jeff Sherman: is the most  well
articulated name for you,

134
00:04:43,729 --> 00:04:45,319
Peter Kourounis: beyond just being

135
00:04:45,319 --> 00:04:47,329
Jeff Sherman: such a plain stale burrito.

136
00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:48,599
Yeah.

137
00:04:49,489 --> 00:04:49,759
No,

138
00:04:50,419 --> 00:04:53,014
Michael Riley: I'm gonna, I'm gonna
go to Home Depot and get like some

139
00:04:53,014 --> 00:04:56,404
brown spray paint and just make
this look like it's toasted . Yeah.

140
00:04:56,554 --> 00:04:57,564
I can, I

141
00:04:57,564 --> 00:04:58,624
Peter Kourounis: can
wear, Yeah, definitely.

142
00:04:58,624 --> 00:04:59,284
You could do that.

143
00:04:59,344 --> 00:04:59,974
Absolutely.

144
00:05:00,154 --> 00:05:00,424
Yeah.

145
00:05:00,574 --> 00:05:04,204
What do you think are those little
yellow things on your shoulder?

146
00:05:04,204 --> 00:05:04,834
What, what?

147
00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:05,224
What would

148
00:05:05,224 --> 00:05:05,974
Jeff Sherman: that look like?

149
00:05:05,974 --> 00:05:07,444
What, What is that?

150
00:05:08,164 --> 00:05:08,314
I'm

151
00:05:08,314 --> 00:05:10,804
Michael Riley: assuming it's cheddar
cheese, which is really inauthentic.

152
00:05:10,809 --> 00:05:15,334
Shouldn't be yellow cheese and a burrito,
but, And I guess these are tomatoes.

153
00:05:15,674 --> 00:05:16,204
I don't know.

154
00:05:16,204 --> 00:05:16,444
Yeah.

155
00:05:16,444 --> 00:05:16,844
Yeah.

156
00:05:17,154 --> 00:05:19,354
I don't know why it's a, I
don't know why it's a burrito.

157
00:05:19,594 --> 00:05:20,074
That's the weird

158
00:05:20,074 --> 00:05:20,314
Jeff Sherman: part.

159
00:05:21,774 --> 00:05:22,444
burrito.

160
00:05:23,334 --> 00:05:25,684
It looked kind, I mean, grow over here.

161
00:05:25,684 --> 00:05:28,204
Anyway, it looked a little bit
like a pizza, like a pizza.

162
00:05:29,209 --> 00:05:30,079
Yeah, you can't,

163
00:05:30,079 --> 00:05:31,399
Michael Riley: you're not
getting the full effect of it.

164
00:05:31,399 --> 00:05:33,069
You gotta like, see

165
00:05:34,919 --> 00:05:35,709
. 
Jeff Sherman: Oh, it's

166
00:05:35,709 --> 00:05:37,789
Peter Kourounis: like, it's
got a nice little fold on

167
00:05:37,789 --> 00:05:38,239
Jeff Sherman: the belly.

168
00:05:41,899 --> 00:05:42,889
Chipotle take notes.

169
00:05:42,889 --> 00:05:46,939
This is how you, this is how you a tight

170
00:05:46,969 --> 00:05:47,569
Michael Riley: burrito.

171
00:05:48,229 --> 00:05:48,469
Yeah.

172
00:05:49,849 --> 00:05:51,139
. But I, I am sweating like a pig.

173
00:05:51,139 --> 00:05:51,319
Like

174
00:05:51,319 --> 00:05:52,279
Bryant Gillespie: this is really hot.

175
00:05:52,789 --> 00:05:55,039
The signed chi changa.

176
00:05:55,099 --> 00:05:56,389
See that one's got flavors.

177
00:05:56,389 --> 00:05:57,739
You give it a little kick to it.

178
00:05:57,803 --> 00:06:01,938
if you're listening to this one, let
us know what you think of those five.

179
00:06:02,208 --> 00:06:06,768
We're leaning towards signed Chi Changa,
but it may change next episode if

180
00:06:06,768 --> 00:06:08,358
Jeff Sherman: you're, if
you're still listening.

181
00:06:09,168 --> 00:06:11,478
So where, where does, where
does I have to ask though?

182
00:06:11,478 --> 00:06:14,058
Cause I, you know, I've only
listened to a couple of the episodes.

183
00:06:14,058 --> 00:06:14,388
Pete.

184
00:06:14,388 --> 00:06:16,668
Pete, where does the sign Yoda come from?

185
00:06:18,918 --> 00:06:19,398
Bryant.

186
00:06:19,998 --> 00:06:20,358
Okay.

187
00:06:20,363 --> 00:06:22,329
That's where that, that's
where it came from.

188
00:06:22,367 --> 00:06:24,277
Peter Kourounis: I, I honestly
didn't come up with it.

189
00:06:24,397 --> 00:06:26,557
It's, I am a Star Wars fan.

190
00:06:26,857 --> 00:06:27,124
Okay.

191
00:06:27,124 --> 00:06:33,070
not, I don't warrant myself being
the Yoda, but it was a name that was

192
00:06:33,070 --> 00:06:34,750
given on me and bestowed upon me.

193
00:06:34,755 --> 00:06:35,980
And I said, All right, I'll rock with it.

194
00:06:37,390 --> 00:06:38,170
Bryant Gillespie: You gotta ride it.

195
00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:43,187
So I was, this is when I had, hired
Pete to do videos for us at Shop Fox.

196
00:06:43,187 --> 00:06:43,277
Mm-hmm.

197
00:06:43,577 --> 00:06:45,177
, and I was looking for
a way to introduce him.

198
00:06:45,182 --> 00:06:50,252
he had, I think he had just got done
with whatever clause that he had

199
00:06:50,252 --> 00:06:52,232
about his selling his franchise.

200
00:06:52,592 --> 00:06:55,352
So he came on board to do videos
and I was like, Hey, how am

201
00:06:55,357 --> 00:06:56,552
I gonna introduce this guy?

202
00:06:57,512 --> 00:06:57,962
And

203
00:06:57,962 --> 00:06:59,912
Jeff Sherman: I was like,
just rolled through to,

204
00:07:00,392 --> 00:07:02,312
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, it was
something like, we started with like

205
00:07:02,312 --> 00:07:06,122
Guru or something like that, and
I was like, this just doesn't fit.

206
00:07:06,242 --> 00:07:10,622
So somehow, I don't know if like the
new Star Wars had come out at that

207
00:07:10,627 --> 00:07:12,572
time, how many years ago that was.

208
00:07:12,575 --> 00:07:15,093
but it just, It stuck, man.

209
00:07:15,243 --> 00:07:18,611
Or maybe it was, maybe it was
when the No, it wasn't the

210
00:07:18,611 --> 00:07:20,201
Mandalorian that was Baby Yoda.

211
00:07:20,201 --> 00:07:20,261
It

212
00:07:20,541 --> 00:07:20,701
Peter Kourounis: might.

213
00:07:21,311 --> 00:07:22,211
It might, yeah.

214
00:07:22,241 --> 00:07:25,812
But it might have been like, around
that time when, where it came out the

215
00:07:25,812 --> 00:07:28,462
first season, it might have been optic.

216
00:07:28,467 --> 00:07:28,662
Look

217
00:07:28,662 --> 00:07:32,742
Jeff Sherman: back, you know, if
we're talking baby Yoda then you

218
00:07:32,742 --> 00:07:34,512
know, Mike's got that look down.

219
00:07:34,512 --> 00:07:35,142
Totally right.

220
00:07:39,102 --> 00:07:39,462
Peter Kourounis: Mike.

221
00:07:39,792 --> 00:07:40,798
Mike, the baby Yoda.

222
00:07:40,798 --> 00:07:45,459
Jeff Sherman: alright,
well, no, I derivative.

223
00:07:45,589 --> 00:07:51,109
Michael Riley: I wanna know, I wanna know
Bryan, like the sign shop Yoda rolled

224
00:07:51,109 --> 00:07:55,519
right off your tongue for Peter, like,
The signed burrito came to mind for me.

225
00:07:55,519 --> 00:07:55,939
Like it's

226
00:07:56,779 --> 00:07:58,489
. 
Bryant Gillespie: It's, that's
what I was telling Jeff.

227
00:07:58,999 --> 00:08:04,519
You eat so many tacos and Mexican food and
like every time I talk to you, you're at,

228
00:08:04,579 --> 00:08:06,109
you're in the drive through at Taco Bell.

229
00:08:06,469 --> 00:08:10,429
I very rarely do I call Mike on
his cell phone, but if I ever call

230
00:08:10,434 --> 00:08:14,299
him on this cell phone, he's like,
Yeah, Taco, hang on a minute.

231
00:08:14,299 --> 00:08:16,549
I'm, I'm trying to get
some lunch at Taco Bell.

232
00:08:16,549 --> 00:08:17,329
Can I call you back?

233
00:08:17,329 --> 00:08:18,619
I'm like, like, Okay.

234
00:08:19,099 --> 00:08:19,849
Yeah, I got.

235
00:08:20,854 --> 00:08:21,064
Michael Riley: Okay.

236
00:08:21,064 --> 00:08:22,024
That's, that's fair.

237
00:08:22,144 --> 00:08:23,044
I'll go, I'll give you that

238
00:08:23,854 --> 00:08:26,074
. 
Jeff Sherman: So I learned
something new about Mike today.

239
00:08:26,074 --> 00:08:27,244
He likes to main poisoning

240
00:08:31,174 --> 00:08:32,704
Taco, Taco Bell special.

241
00:08:32,854 --> 00:08:33,124
Alright.

242
00:08:34,024 --> 00:08:35,464
Michael Riley: Yeah, I love it.

243
00:08:36,304 --> 00:08:37,734
This nacho fries man are so good.

244
00:08:38,944 --> 00:08:39,514
As we get

245
00:08:39,514 --> 00:08:41,883
Bryant Gillespie: into it, obviously
anybody listening out there,

246
00:08:41,883 --> 00:08:45,183
you haven't been on the podcast
before, Jeff, why don't you give

247
00:08:45,183 --> 00:08:47,523
us your sign industry backstory?

248
00:08:48,093 --> 00:08:48,513
Jeff Sherman: Sure.

249
00:08:48,594 --> 00:08:53,074
well I think like a lot of people, I
got into the sign industry on accident.

250
00:08:53,074 --> 00:08:55,942
didn't know what I was getting
into in the first place at all.

251
00:08:55,942 --> 00:09:01,052
I've been in it for 20, 23 years now.

252
00:09:01,066 --> 00:09:03,086
Literally through a miscommunication.

253
00:09:03,137 --> 00:09:08,274
my, my, my grandfather moved into
a, a condo complex and, got to

254
00:09:08,274 --> 00:09:09,774
talking to one of his neighbors.

255
00:09:10,434 --> 00:09:13,665
And, they got to the part of, you
know, what do you do for a living?

256
00:09:13,665 --> 00:09:16,600
And, and the neighbors
said, I do vehicle graphics.

257
00:09:17,380 --> 00:09:21,820
And all my grandfather heard was graphics
and I'd gone to school for graphic design.

258
00:09:21,820 --> 00:09:25,390
So my grandfather said, Oh,
my, my grandson does that.

259
00:09:25,870 --> 00:09:29,140
And the guy said, Hey, I'm kinda
looking for somebody for the

260
00:09:29,140 --> 00:09:31,270
shop once you bring him over.

261
00:09:31,270 --> 00:09:33,550
And so I went over and.

262
00:09:33,765 --> 00:09:36,045
Two minutes after meeting the
guy, I'm like, Yeah, I don't

263
00:09:36,050 --> 00:09:37,798
do this, but, I need a job.

264
00:09:37,798 --> 00:09:38,818
And I learn quick.

265
00:09:38,818 --> 00:09:43,915
So when I give it a shot, and so 23
years later, I'm, I'm still a sign guy.

266
00:09:43,964 --> 00:09:44,468
but yeah.

267
00:09:44,517 --> 00:09:46,077
started off in vehicle wraps.

268
00:09:46,077 --> 00:09:50,217
Basically used to do all the stuff
for, for Red Bull, believe it or not,

269
00:09:50,217 --> 00:09:53,919
out of a little tiny, three man shop
in, in Huntington Beach over here.

270
00:09:53,919 --> 00:09:55,599
We used to do all the promo vehicles.

271
00:09:55,989 --> 00:09:57,099
Have you ever seen those?

272
00:09:57,874 --> 00:10:01,095
Those little, little, little
cars cans on top of them.

273
00:10:01,315 --> 00:10:01,475
Yes.

274
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,097
That driving around the little, the
little, mini Coopers or whatever, they're,

275
00:10:05,547 --> 00:10:07,437
they did Mini Coopers at one point.

276
00:10:07,437 --> 00:10:10,555
They started off with, they were
Suzukis like, I can't remember.

277
00:10:10,555 --> 00:10:14,065
It was a little Suzuki, that Red Bull
pretty much bought up every single one

278
00:10:14,095 --> 00:10:17,485
that they had, X J 90 or something like
that, I think is what it was called.

279
00:10:17,491 --> 00:10:20,241
and they would retrofit those
things and these cans onto them.

280
00:10:20,241 --> 00:10:21,951
And we did all the, all
the graphics for that.

281
00:10:21,951 --> 00:10:26,001
And this was, this was like pre, this
was like early, early digital days.

282
00:10:26,361 --> 00:10:28,731
So that stuff wasn't done as wraps.

283
00:10:28,736 --> 00:10:32,931
It was, They would, the, the, the
companies that were modifying the cars

284
00:10:32,936 --> 00:10:36,981
would, you know, build a rigs and then
take, convert the trunks into coolers

285
00:10:36,981 --> 00:10:40,821
and then paint the, the things in the
silver and blue, and then we'd come out

286
00:10:40,821 --> 00:10:43,462
and put two color, CAD cut vinyl on it.

287
00:10:43,462 --> 00:10:46,548
and so we did all of those and then we
were doing all of their, their fleet.

288
00:10:46,938 --> 00:10:49,968
The delivery vehicles all
out of a little, little shop.

289
00:10:49,968 --> 00:10:50,538
It was crazy.

290
00:10:50,898 --> 00:10:55,338
Had a couple, couple 48 inch Rollins
that we were running like 24 7 just to

291
00:10:55,338 --> 00:10:56,868
ship hits all over the, all over the.

292
00:10:58,413 --> 00:10:58,743
Michael Riley: Nice.

293
00:10:58,863 --> 00:11:01,533
I haven't heard anybody say
CAD cut vinyl in so long.

294
00:11:02,313 --> 00:11:03,143
Jeff Sherman: Oh, really?

295
00:11:03,143 --> 00:11:03,583
Really?

296
00:11:03,588 --> 00:11:03,753
What?

297
00:11:03,863 --> 00:11:04,143
Okay.

298
00:11:04,353 --> 00:11:04,803
They gave, they gave me the

299
00:11:04,803 --> 00:11:05,553
Michael Riley: warm and fuzzies.

300
00:11:05,733 --> 00:11:06,183
Jeff Sherman: It's pretty funny.

301
00:11:06,263 --> 00:11:06,663
What, what?

302
00:11:06,663 --> 00:11:09,003
Okay, so I'm, I'm, I'm
old school apparently.

303
00:11:09,003 --> 00:11:11,194
What, what is, what is,
what does everybody call it?

304
00:11:12,394 --> 00:11:12,964
Oh, it's just always

305
00:11:12,964 --> 00:11:13,684
Michael Riley: cut vinyl now.

306
00:11:14,384 --> 00:11:16,984
I haven't heard anybody
about the CAD in front of it.

307
00:11:17,014 --> 00:11:17,434
Okay.

308
00:11:17,434 --> 00:11:17,644
All right.

309
00:11:17,644 --> 00:11:19,114
That's how I learned too, was the CAD cut.

310
00:11:19,114 --> 00:11:19,294
But

311
00:11:19,684 --> 00:11:21,574
Jeff Sherman: yeah, I mean, I
guess as an old school, what are

312
00:11:21,574 --> 00:11:23,164
the other options at this point?

313
00:11:23,714 --> 00:11:26,204
I mean, you gonna do non
CAD cut vinyl, I guess?

314
00:11:26,204 --> 00:11:27,854
Yeah, it is a little redundant in it.

315
00:11:28,064 --> 00:11:28,334
Okay.

316
00:11:28,334 --> 00:11:32,810
Well, hey, thanks for the, the, the, the,
the education I'm gonna head out now.

317
00:11:32,810 --> 00:11:34,179
, thanks for making me feel old.

318
00:11:34,179 --> 00:11:34,279
You.

319
00:11:34,333 --> 00:11:34,963
so yeah.

320
00:11:35,052 --> 00:11:38,459
so yeah, started off in a vinyl
shop and then, spent the last

321
00:11:38,459 --> 00:11:43,045
almost 19 years at a company that
specialized in, architectural signage.

322
00:11:43,375 --> 00:11:45,625
Mostly interior for a lot of that.

323
00:11:45,625 --> 00:11:51,385
So I got a ton of ADA signage and
interior sign system design and

324
00:11:51,385 --> 00:11:54,785
manufacturer and install, under my belt.

325
00:11:54,790 --> 00:11:58,181
And, and, you know, about
five to six years worth of

326
00:11:58,181 --> 00:11:59,771
the electrical stuff as well.

327
00:11:59,771 --> 00:12:04,571
So it's been a, it's been an
interesting, an interesting ride.

328
00:12:04,626 --> 00:12:09,109
you know, I find myself at this point
in my career kinda reevaluating.

329
00:12:09,909 --> 00:12:13,269
Where my strengths and where my
weaknesses are in the sign business.

330
00:12:13,989 --> 00:12:18,189
For the longest time, I've been
kind of the resident subject

331
00:12:18,189 --> 00:12:19,869
matter expert within the company.

332
00:12:20,949 --> 00:12:26,399
And, what does that mean, you
know, so that meant that about 80%

333
00:12:26,404 --> 00:12:30,449
of my day was spent, especially
since the advent of teams.

334
00:12:30,572 --> 00:12:36,692
fielding messages and, and quick calls
and answering questions to everybody in

335
00:12:36,692 --> 00:12:44,312
the, in the company, from the sales side,
project management, fabrication design,

336
00:12:44,852 --> 00:12:48,512
Pretty much everybody soup to nuts in
the, in the business would, would hit

337
00:12:48,512 --> 00:12:51,632
me up with, Hey, I've got this thing.

338
00:12:51,637 --> 00:12:53,012
What are we supposed to do with it?

339
00:12:54,062 --> 00:12:57,152
You know, how, how do I design this?

340
00:12:57,152 --> 00:12:58,142
How do I sell it?

341
00:12:58,172 --> 00:13:00,082
What's the right material to use for this?

342
00:13:00,962 --> 00:13:03,122
What's, you know, how do we install this?

343
00:13:03,122 --> 00:13:04,742
What's the hardware I need?

344
00:13:05,132 --> 00:13:07,232
How do I deal with the city on this?

345
00:13:07,292 --> 00:13:12,092
I, I mean, literally I was like
the Wikipedia of the company.

346
00:13:12,152 --> 00:13:15,782
I, it was, it was a
very odd, very odd role.

347
00:13:15,782 --> 00:13:19,772
I mean, technically speaking, for the
longest time, my, my title was Vice

348
00:13:19,772 --> 00:13:24,467
President of Operations, but honestly,
it was, I mean Chief Cook and bottle

349
00:13:24,467 --> 00:13:29,747
washer, you know, But yeah, it was af
Jeff, you know, forget Ask Jeans and Yes.

350
00:13:30,377 --> 00:13:30,677
Yes.

351
00:13:30,682 --> 00:13:32,567
There's another old one for your mic.

352
00:13:32,627 --> 00:13:33,047
Okay.

353
00:13:33,647 --> 00:13:33,917
Ask.

354
00:13:34,457 --> 00:13:35,807
Cause nobody remembers that either.

355
00:13:36,067 --> 00:13:37,667
I saw, I remember that one.

356
00:13:38,057 --> 00:13:38,357
Michael Riley: Do you

357
00:13:38,417 --> 00:13:39,527
Jeff Sherman: That one was cool, right?

358
00:13:39,527 --> 00:13:39,767
Yeah.

359
00:13:39,767 --> 00:13:41,177
I, I actually never even used it.

360
00:13:41,177 --> 00:13:42,117
I just knew it was a thing.

361
00:13:42,178 --> 00:13:45,988
but yeah, it was just, it
was, it was like, that was

362
00:13:45,988 --> 00:13:47,338
the company process, you know?

363
00:13:47,338 --> 00:13:48,688
You got a question, you just ask.

364
00:13:48,688 --> 00:13:48,898
Yes.

365
00:13:48,988 --> 00:13:52,468
You don't, you don't look it up, you
don't look into records, whatever.

366
00:13:52,468 --> 00:13:54,148
It's just call Jeff, figure it out.

367
00:13:54,148 --> 00:13:54,418
You know?

368
00:13:54,958 --> 00:13:58,618
And then of course I was the, I was
the resident shop box expert too, you

369
00:13:58,618 --> 00:14:00,538
know, if, if there is such a thing,

370
00:14:00,641 --> 00:14:02,981
Bryant Gillespie: And that's
how Jim and I got introduced

371
00:14:02,981 --> 00:14:04,971
to each other through Shop Box.

372
00:14:05,301 --> 00:14:05,691
Peter Kourounis: This is true.

373
00:14:05,751 --> 00:14:05,991
Yes.

374
00:14:06,081 --> 00:14:07,761
How, Let me ask you this.

375
00:14:07,761 --> 00:14:09,201
Let me ask you as a follow up here.

376
00:14:09,201 --> 00:14:09,531
Sure.

377
00:14:09,981 --> 00:14:13,461
In a way, you became the
Sign Shop general, right?

378
00:14:13,461 --> 00:14:15,621
If, if you got, if you have all.

379
00:14:16,491 --> 00:14:17,691
Of these people asking you

380
00:14:17,691 --> 00:14:20,721
Jeff Sherman: questions, you're,
you are the source of all of

381
00:14:21,261 --> 00:14:22,281
Peter Kourounis: all of those answers.

382
00:14:22,281 --> 00:14:27,081
How does that make you feel as an
owner that you are, that tied into

383
00:14:27,081 --> 00:14:32,331
all of those operations, all of
those key components to your business

384
00:14:32,331 --> 00:14:35,391
that you know, that everybody goes

385
00:14:35,391 --> 00:14:35,541
Jeff Sherman: to?

386
00:14:35,541 --> 00:14:37,131
How does that make you feel as an owner?

387
00:14:37,401 --> 00:14:40,071
Well, so let a couple things.

388
00:14:40,095 --> 00:14:43,917
number one, and, and, and you don't
know this, so forgive me for correcting

389
00:14:43,917 --> 00:14:45,610
it like this, but I wasn't the owner.

390
00:14:45,610 --> 00:14:48,512
I, I, it was the small
shop when I started.

391
00:14:48,512 --> 00:14:52,191
There were five people there, but I
got hired on, I was a hired, okay.

392
00:14:52,601 --> 00:14:56,808
So, you know, there's that layer
to that onion, but, you know, it's

393
00:14:57,288 --> 00:14:59,028
at a certain level of gratifying.

394
00:14:59,178 --> 00:15:02,268
It's good to know that you bring a
value, that people value what you

395
00:15:02,268 --> 00:15:04,228
contribute, that value, that people.

396
00:15:04,299 --> 00:15:07,989
recognize that you've got, you know,
knowledge that you can, you can

397
00:15:08,019 --> 00:15:14,439
bring to, to, to help them out at
the, on the other hand, it speaks

398
00:15:14,444 --> 00:15:19,329
to the kinda lack of training that
went in, you know, systemically

399
00:15:19,509 --> 00:15:21,309
into the company as, as a culture.

400
00:15:21,405 --> 00:15:25,935
you know, it, and I was just talking
to somebody, I was interviewing with

401
00:15:25,935 --> 00:15:30,801
somebody yesterday morning, and asked
them what their biggest struggle was.

402
00:15:30,806 --> 00:15:34,101
And, and without dropping any names,
I'm just gonna say this is one of

403
00:15:34,101 --> 00:15:39,591
the largest national companies in the
US that I was talking to yesterday.

404
00:15:39,598 --> 00:15:42,773
and I asked them what their biggest
challenges were as an organization,

405
00:15:42,773 --> 00:15:46,133
and one of the first things he
mentioned was, was people, you

406
00:15:46,138 --> 00:15:48,313
know, finding signed people.

407
00:15:49,243 --> 00:15:50,623
Is difficult.

408
00:15:51,073 --> 00:15:56,173
So often you find yourself, especially as
a smaller shop, having to build your own.

409
00:15:56,953 --> 00:15:59,983
And that can be a challenge.

410
00:16:00,043 --> 00:16:07,633
You know, there's, there's,
it's very difficult to supplant

411
00:16:08,353 --> 00:16:10,933
just time and experience.

412
00:16:11,683 --> 00:16:14,203
You know, you can, you
can, you can support it.

413
00:16:14,229 --> 00:16:18,324
but I think the way that, the situation
that I ended up in where everybody

414
00:16:18,329 --> 00:16:23,469
was constantly coming to me asking
questions is, is an example of, Maybe

415
00:16:23,469 --> 00:16:28,907
not having a so good of a, system of,
of onboarding and, and building a, a,

416
00:16:28,939 --> 00:16:31,119
a basis of knowledge within the staff.

417
00:16:31,329 --> 00:16:31,629
You know?

418
00:16:32,589 --> 00:16:34,629
Peter Kourounis: So let's, let's
start with that for a moment.

419
00:16:34,634 --> 00:16:39,339
For our listeners out there that
are always concerned about finding

420
00:16:39,344 --> 00:16:43,509
people, there's tons of owners out
there that own their own shops and

421
00:16:43,509 --> 00:16:45,499
they have the same problem, right?

422
00:16:45,499 --> 00:16:45,699
Mm-hmm.

423
00:16:45,779 --> 00:16:46,269
, they have the same problem.

424
00:16:46,269 --> 00:16:48,805
Like, where, how can I find people,
How can I find people, But I don't

425
00:16:48,805 --> 00:16:50,485
want to talk about how to find people.

426
00:16:50,485 --> 00:16:50,962
Mm-hmm.

427
00:16:50,987 --> 00:16:54,722
that, that, that's a, that's a simple,
you know, 10 or 15 minute conversation.

428
00:16:54,727 --> 00:16:56,912
But how do you build people up?

429
00:16:56,912 --> 00:17:00,782
How, in your experience, how have
you taken somebody that doesn't

430
00:17:00,787 --> 00:17:06,182
have experience and what have you
done in, in your experience to build

431
00:17:06,362 --> 00:17:11,432
them up so that they can become sign
guys or sign people, whatever you

432
00:17:11,437 --> 00:17:11,882
Jeff Sherman: wanna call em.

433
00:17:12,122 --> 00:17:12,632
Sure.

434
00:17:12,842 --> 00:17:16,112
You know, I, I think, I
think one of the first, and.

435
00:17:17,012 --> 00:17:23,722
Most effective ways of dealing
with that is doing rotations

436
00:17:24,212 --> 00:17:28,202
through all of the areas in your
business, whatever that might be.

437
00:17:28,241 --> 00:17:33,371
so many of us, and I'm I I, I mentioned
this before we started here, many

438
00:17:33,371 --> 00:17:40,691
of us are that kind of chief cook
and bottle washer is, is a sign guy.

439
00:17:40,871 --> 00:17:47,501
You know, it, we, we tend not to be
so focused on, I'm a sign designer

440
00:17:47,501 --> 00:17:53,381
or I'm a science fabricator, or I
sell signs, or I'm a project manager.

441
00:17:53,381 --> 00:17:57,161
Yes, there are companies that are
structured that way, but even in those

442
00:17:57,341 --> 00:18:01,871
companies, the people that tend to succeed
in this industry, at least from what

443
00:18:01,876 --> 00:18:08,111
I've seen, are the ones that are a little
more rounded and at least understand how,

444
00:18:08,116 --> 00:18:13,346
what it is that they're doing impacts
the overall process because, You know,

445
00:18:13,436 --> 00:18:18,836
every single little thing that we touch
from the sales conversations to what

446
00:18:18,836 --> 00:18:23,186
we recommend to the customer is the
solution to what gets designed to get

447
00:18:23,186 --> 00:18:28,616
what gets produced ultimately has an
impact on the final product and how well

448
00:18:28,621 --> 00:18:33,266
it suits what the client needed and how
happy they're gonna be with it, right?

449
00:18:33,656 --> 00:18:39,926
So to me, to build that kind of sign
person, you've gotta, you, you've

450
00:18:39,926 --> 00:18:43,826
gotta build that understanding of
the process from start to finish and

451
00:18:43,826 --> 00:18:48,506
put people in different areas and let
them experience the different areas.

452
00:18:48,506 --> 00:18:51,626
So send your sign designer into the shop.

453
00:18:53,321 --> 00:18:55,031
Let 'em, let 'em work with the guys.

454
00:18:55,031 --> 00:18:57,041
Let 'em, let 'em weed some vinyl.

455
00:18:58,151 --> 00:19:02,321
You wanna, you wanna, you wanna
discourage a, you wanna discourage a sign

456
00:19:02,321 --> 00:19:05,021
designer from setting up quarter inch?

457
00:19:05,501 --> 00:19:07,451
Cut copy, cut vinyl, copy.

458
00:19:07,601 --> 00:19:09,891
Let 'em try to weed some
of it for about an hour.

459
00:19:09,917 --> 00:19:10,497
what else?

460
00:19:10,528 --> 00:19:13,118
yeah, put put em, you know,
put em, let em let em go.

461
00:19:13,208 --> 00:19:14,648
Maybe don't put 'em in the paint booth.

462
00:19:15,443 --> 00:19:18,953
You know, put 'em in air, but let,
let, let him get around it, you know?

463
00:19:19,006 --> 00:19:23,517
let, let, let him see how, how things
take them in through the MetaLab shop.

464
00:19:23,517 --> 00:19:27,537
Let see how to channel letters
are, are put together again.

465
00:19:27,537 --> 00:19:27,777
Yeah.

466
00:19:27,782 --> 00:19:32,097
You want discourage a half inch stroke
on a, on a five inch deep channel.

467
00:19:33,117 --> 00:19:36,997
Let him have a conversation with the guy
in metals, spas, trying to get his, his,

468
00:19:37,097 --> 00:19:42,147
his welding gun down to the inside of the
channel and grip at him about, Hey, you

469
00:19:42,147 --> 00:19:46,354
see how this doesn't fit in here, I get
so get your sales people through there.

470
00:19:46,354 --> 00:19:46,654
You know?

471
00:19:47,494 --> 00:19:48,064
So what you're

472
00:19:48,064 --> 00:19:50,584
Peter Kourounis: saying is you,
you basically take them through

473
00:19:50,584 --> 00:19:55,294
all phases of your operation from
anywhere, from front of the house

474
00:19:55,294 --> 00:19:59,824
to very deep into fabrication,
possibly even into installation, I

475
00:19:59,824 --> 00:20:01,834
Jeff Sherman: would guess,
as well, out in the future.

476
00:20:01,894 --> 00:20:02,584
Absolutely.

477
00:20:02,664 --> 00:20:04,924
Peter Kourounis: And, and you're,
and you're getting them ex, you're

478
00:20:04,924 --> 00:20:08,584
giving them exposure into all
elements of what this business is.

479
00:20:08,589 --> 00:20:08,764
Mm-hmm.

480
00:20:08,984 --> 00:20:11,484
And then, and then at the end of the.

481
00:20:11,869 --> 00:20:14,989
You're hoping that they're gonna
pick up some of those nuggets, right?

482
00:20:14,989 --> 00:20:19,099
Like that there, that there's gonna be
something there that resonates with them,

483
00:20:19,099 --> 00:20:24,259
that teaches them, that exposes them,
that maybe they could find a home with

484
00:20:24,379 --> 00:20:26,479
comfortability in some of those aspects.

485
00:20:26,809 --> 00:20:30,709
But what do you do as the, the
manager to kind of make sure that

486
00:20:30,714 --> 00:20:33,889
they are receiving some nuggets,
Like they can walk around and I could

487
00:20:33,889 --> 00:20:35,149
play around in your paint booth.

488
00:20:35,299 --> 00:20:35,629
Sure.

489
00:20:35,719 --> 00:20:37,369
I don't know if I'm gonna learn anything.

490
00:20:37,369 --> 00:20:38,239
So what do you do

491
00:20:38,689 --> 00:20:40,069
Jeff Sherman: to kinda enforce that?

492
00:20:40,399 --> 00:20:42,619
So it, it has to be a guided activity.

493
00:20:42,619 --> 00:20:46,009
I mean, you, you need to map out.

494
00:20:47,554 --> 00:20:50,434
Here's things that I wanna
expose this person to.

495
00:20:50,794 --> 00:20:51,184
Okay?

496
00:20:51,514 --> 00:20:52,804
So you're gonna work with your staff.

497
00:20:52,804 --> 00:20:56,314
You're gonna say, Okay, put, put,
put an agenda together for the day.

498
00:20:56,314 --> 00:21:00,454
Hey, I, I want you to, I want
to spend an hour in vinyl.

499
00:21:00,454 --> 00:21:03,484
I want 'em to see, show
'em how things are cut.

500
00:21:03,484 --> 00:21:04,684
Show 'em how you load the media.

501
00:21:04,684 --> 00:21:06,394
Show 'em how things are weeded.

502
00:21:06,754 --> 00:21:10,204
Give them some vinyl to weed so
they experience what that's like.

503
00:21:10,243 --> 00:21:13,963
then get 'em over into this area here
and show 'em this, that, and this.

504
00:21:14,293 --> 00:21:14,983
Map out.

505
00:21:15,043 --> 00:21:18,553
Map out a, an actual agenda for the day.

506
00:21:19,963 --> 00:21:22,903
Then you gotta sit down with
them at the end of the day.

507
00:21:24,133 --> 00:21:25,303
And talk to 'em about it.

508
00:21:25,303 --> 00:21:26,863
Do a, do a debrief with them.

509
00:21:26,863 --> 00:21:27,943
Ask them questions.

510
00:21:27,948 --> 00:21:28,783
What did you see?

511
00:21:28,783 --> 00:21:32,233
What, you know, what kind of,
what kind of things made sense?

512
00:21:32,233 --> 00:21:35,683
What things didn't make
sense when you saw this?

513
00:21:35,683 --> 00:21:38,803
Did, did, do you know
why they were doing that?

514
00:21:39,433 --> 00:21:44,203
So, to me, any kind of training
program and that, that's gonna have

515
00:21:44,203 --> 00:21:51,583
value and is gonna stick, my approach
always goes to give, give the, give

516
00:21:51,583 --> 00:21:55,903
the holistic, give them the, how does
this fit into the bigger picture?

517
00:21:55,908 --> 00:22:00,133
Give them the why behind why
something is done rather than just

518
00:22:00,138 --> 00:22:01,933
this is, this is how it's done.

519
00:22:02,923 --> 00:22:06,703
If I don't understand why something
is done the way it's done, odds are

520
00:22:06,703 --> 00:22:08,593
I'm not gonna quite grab onto it.

521
00:22:08,598 --> 00:22:11,143
Or at very least, I'm not gonna buy in.

522
00:22:11,473 --> 00:22:16,683
If I don't buy in, then it's not gonna,
you know, it, it, it's not gonna grab you.

523
00:22:18,003 --> 00:22:18,523
So yeah,

524
00:22:18,673 --> 00:22:20,863
Peter Kourounis: there, there's,
there's definitely an, there's

525
00:22:20,863 --> 00:22:24,993
definitely an old Benjamin Franklin
quote that really resonate, resonates

526
00:22:24,998 --> 00:22:26,803
with what you are talking about.

527
00:22:26,803 --> 00:22:29,713
You know, it's, it's a quote
that I've taught about.

528
00:22:29,718 --> 00:22:33,583
It's a, it's a quote that I live by, you
know, it says, it says, Tell me and I

529
00:22:33,583 --> 00:22:38,653
forget, teach me and I or may remember,
but involve me and I learn mm-hmm.

530
00:22:39,078 --> 00:22:42,907
and that, and that's basically what
you are, what you're saying here

531
00:22:42,907 --> 00:22:47,167
is that if you involve them in the
process, they're going to retain a lot.

532
00:22:47,227 --> 00:22:49,477
And essentially yes.

533
00:22:49,567 --> 00:22:52,627
You can't find that in
any training manual.

534
00:22:52,627 --> 00:22:57,487
So the only thing that, that our listeners
need to make sure that they're doing,

535
00:22:57,487 --> 00:23:01,537
when, if they, if there are sign shop
owners out there that are doing it very

536
00:23:01,537 --> 00:23:05,197
similarly, like to you, that you are,
is that they need to have some sort

537
00:23:05,197 --> 00:23:09,727
of sit down the checks and balances
of it all, where they're gonna sit

538
00:23:09,727 --> 00:23:13,077
down and they're gonna say, Hey, You
know, tell me what you picked up on.

539
00:23:13,077 --> 00:23:15,507
Tell me what you're concerned
about, what you saw, What are

540
00:23:15,777 --> 00:23:16,887
your fears, What are your doubts?

541
00:23:16,887 --> 00:23:18,177
What are you excited about?

542
00:23:18,177 --> 00:23:18,267
Mm-hmm.

543
00:23:18,857 --> 00:23:21,207
. And then let's kind of
talk through those points.

544
00:23:21,327 --> 00:23:21,477
Mm-hmm.

545
00:23:21,722 --> 00:23:21,777
. Yeah.

546
00:23:21,782 --> 00:23:26,067
That's, that, that's a really great way
of developing people in this business.

547
00:23:26,067 --> 00:23:28,167
I, I tend to really like that.

548
00:23:28,172 --> 00:23:28,417
Mm-hmm.

549
00:23:28,497 --> 00:23:31,977
the only pushback I've gotten on that
in the past is how long it takes.

550
00:23:32,157 --> 00:23:32,487
Sure.

551
00:23:32,577 --> 00:23:32,817
Right.

552
00:23:32,817 --> 00:23:35,247
It's not like you can, it's not
like you give them a playbook.

553
00:23:35,577 --> 00:23:35,667
Mm-hmm.

554
00:23:35,907 --> 00:23:38,577
, you're, you're giving them,
you're giving them, you're working

555
00:23:38,577 --> 00:23:40,377
around your operation schedule.

556
00:23:40,377 --> 00:23:40,497
Mm-hmm.

557
00:23:40,897 --> 00:23:42,837
, you're working around your schedule.

558
00:23:43,107 --> 00:23:43,197
Mm-hmm.

559
00:23:43,437 --> 00:23:45,207
and sometimes that could be convoluted.

560
00:23:45,207 --> 00:23:46,797
So that's usually the pushback there.

561
00:23:46,797 --> 00:23:47,577
What are your comments on

562
00:23:47,577 --> 00:23:47,737
Jeff Sherman: that?

563
00:23:47,737 --> 00:23:51,811
I mean, let's face it, No matter
how you slice this, this onion,

564
00:23:51,890 --> 00:23:55,430
training people and developing
people is a time consuming process.

565
00:23:55,507 --> 00:23:59,467
if you're concerned about the amount of
time that that's gonna take, think about

566
00:23:59,472 --> 00:24:03,397
how much time it's gonna take to replace
that person when they don't work for you.

567
00:24:04,517 --> 00:24:09,697
Think about the time spent to recruit
onboard and go through that, if that

568
00:24:09,702 --> 00:24:17,237
person doesn't succeed, failure rate, you
know, the, the, the replacement cycle and

569
00:24:17,237 --> 00:24:21,227
doing that is much more expensive from
a time and, and, and money perspective.

570
00:24:21,232 --> 00:24:23,837
So put the time in and get it right.

571
00:24:24,557 --> 00:24:24,887
Right.

572
00:24:24,917 --> 00:24:28,667
You, you, and, and you, you, you
don't get, you don't get a lot of

573
00:24:28,667 --> 00:24:31,247
opportunities for that, you know?

574
00:24:31,274 --> 00:24:33,914
un unless you wanna be a
shop that has high turnover.

575
00:24:33,919 --> 00:24:37,064
And then if you do have, have a shop
that has high turnover, you really need

576
00:24:37,064 --> 00:24:42,639
to be looking at why that is, Why , you
know, and, and I can say this, that, I,

577
00:24:42,644 --> 00:24:47,439
I've come from a shop that had very high
turnover and I, I can talk about some of

578
00:24:47,444 --> 00:24:51,849
the reasons why that was, but, and some of
it really was in the onboarding processes.

579
00:24:51,849 --> 00:24:54,916
So I've learned, I've learned
through, through mistakes, but.

580
00:24:56,161 --> 00:24:56,731
Well, let's talk

581
00:24:56,731 --> 00:24:57,391
Peter Kourounis: about that.

582
00:24:57,391 --> 00:24:59,881
That's, that's a really
great thing to bring up here.

583
00:24:59,886 --> 00:25:00,031
Yeah.

584
00:25:00,211 --> 00:25:03,421
You know, when you're talking around,
when you're talking about people, right?

585
00:25:03,431 --> 00:25:03,751
Mm-hmm.

586
00:25:03,831 --> 00:25:03,991
mm-hmm.

587
00:25:04,071 --> 00:25:07,291
, and you're, you have to, you have
to talk about turnover, so mm-hmm.

588
00:25:07,536 --> 00:25:12,121
go without really putting any owner under
the bus or any mentioning any names.

589
00:25:12,211 --> 00:25:12,511
Sure.

590
00:25:13,021 --> 00:25:16,951
What are some of those obstacles
that you've seen during recruitment?

591
00:25:16,956 --> 00:25:17,311
Jeff Sherman: Mm-hmm.

592
00:25:17,391 --> 00:25:18,511
and also onboard.

593
00:25:19,321 --> 00:25:23,881
So one of the, one of the biggest
things on the recruitment side, and

594
00:25:23,881 --> 00:25:29,184
I know a lot of small business owners
are guilty of this, listen, during

595
00:25:29,184 --> 00:25:35,604
your interviews, ask questions and
shut up and let the interviewee talk.

596
00:25:36,624 --> 00:25:40,974
So many times I've sat in on
interviews where the person

597
00:25:40,974 --> 00:25:44,814
who's applying for the job does.

598
00:25:46,409 --> 00:25:53,036
A quarter of the talking, maybe more,
less, almost as though the business owner

599
00:25:53,041 --> 00:25:58,416
is more intent on selling the job to
the applicant than the other way around.

600
00:25:59,171 --> 00:26:03,191
I don't know if any of you've experienced
that or seen it, but I've witnessed it

601
00:26:03,191 --> 00:26:05,891
more times than I can possibly count.

602
00:26:05,982 --> 00:26:07,362
so yeah, shut up.

603
00:26:07,512 --> 00:26:10,704
Listen, pay attention,
Let them talk to you.

604
00:26:10,762 --> 00:26:12,392
Bryant Gillespie: what do you,
what do you attribute that to?

605
00:26:12,392 --> 00:26:14,342
Like, Hey, I'm just
trying to fill the seat.

606
00:26:14,402 --> 00:26:18,302
Or like, Hey, the, the person
doing the interview is nervous.

607
00:26:18,302 --> 00:26:22,562
I mean, I can, I can kinda understand
if it's, if it's a smaller shop and

608
00:26:22,562 --> 00:26:24,062
like you're a newer owner mm-hmm.

609
00:26:24,092 --> 00:26:26,882
Like, being kind of, Oh,
I'm trying to hire somebody.

610
00:26:26,882 --> 00:26:28,982
This is my first couple hires.

611
00:26:28,987 --> 00:26:30,182
You might be a little nervous.

612
00:26:30,187 --> 00:26:30,502
Mm-hmm.

613
00:26:30,582 --> 00:26:32,882
a little prone to talking
more than you should.

614
00:26:33,032 --> 00:26:33,182
Mm-hmm.

615
00:26:33,422 --> 00:26:33,735
. But,

616
00:26:33,739 --> 00:26:38,389
Jeff Sherman: I think a fair amount
of it is that I need a body, you

617
00:26:38,389 --> 00:26:44,329
know, people, So sometimes it's,
it's the, we waited too long.

618
00:26:44,899 --> 00:26:49,309
We really needed somebody two months
ago, but we didn't think about

619
00:26:49,309 --> 00:26:51,799
it, and now we're in dire need.

620
00:26:51,799 --> 00:26:55,579
And so it's, you know, get me
somebody now type scenario.

621
00:26:55,939 --> 00:27:00,939
And yeah, there's a little bit of, you're
breathing, you're here, let's, let's,

622
00:27:00,944 --> 00:27:04,995
let's get you in and, and, and see how
you do which, you know, I, i, I don't

623
00:27:04,995 --> 00:27:07,515
agree with, but I, again, I, I've seen it.

624
00:27:07,530 --> 00:27:09,690
the small shop thing I
think really plays into it.

625
00:27:09,690 --> 00:27:13,800
I, I mean even, even at the peak
where I was before, you know,

626
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:19,110
over, over 40 employees, there
was still, but still a small shop.

627
00:27:19,230 --> 00:27:23,880
You know, it, it, you got more bodies,
but it's still, it was still very

628
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,870
much a small shop mentality, you know?

629
00:27:25,870 --> 00:27:30,189
and I think that's one of the things
that, that, that was always struggled

630
00:27:30,189 --> 00:27:36,009
with there was, is, was breaking
out of that small shop mentality

631
00:27:36,009 --> 00:27:37,779
of the, of the five man shop.

632
00:27:37,779 --> 00:27:39,699
That was, that it was,
when I started there.

633
00:27:40,269 --> 00:27:44,529
And, and getting to the next level
of being, you know, a professional

634
00:27:44,529 --> 00:27:48,609
organization with actual hiring practices
and, and, and that sort of thing.

635
00:27:48,630 --> 00:27:56,213
that's, that's something that I know I've
witnessed twice now owners struggling

636
00:27:56,213 --> 00:28:01,793
with, of, of getting beyond where they
were when they started the organization.

637
00:28:01,793 --> 00:28:09,553
Cause so much of both of those
businesses for me was it, it

638
00:28:09,558 --> 00:28:11,153
was the identity of the owner.

639
00:28:12,023 --> 00:28:15,053
You know, the, the, the, the
business becomes a reflection of

640
00:28:15,053 --> 00:28:21,833
that owner regardless of what the,
the rest of the team tries to do.

641
00:28:23,378 --> 00:28:26,878
, there's always a portion of that
owner that's, that's, that's, that's

642
00:28:26,883 --> 00:28:29,038
visible in that, in, in that business.

643
00:28:29,408 --> 00:28:32,939
I, I was, I, I, I listened to the
last podcast and you guys were

644
00:28:32,939 --> 00:28:35,600
talking to tj, the, was it gci?

645
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,220
The, the, Yeah, the print company.

646
00:28:37,225 --> 00:28:37,490
Right.

647
00:28:38,030 --> 00:28:38,780
Great example.

648
00:28:38,780 --> 00:28:42,710
I mean, just, just talking to him and
hearing him talk about his business, that

649
00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:45,260
that business is a reflection of him.

650
00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:46,400
A hundred percent.

651
00:28:47,570 --> 00:28:52,340
That's, that's the customer experience is
everything that TJ says that should be and

652
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,090
is, and talks about that's that business.

653
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:56,660
Right.

654
00:28:56,705 --> 00:29:01,565
so I think I, I think, you know,
ownership, having that influence on

655
00:29:01,775 --> 00:29:07,175
what the business looks like and,
and, and basically having a difficulty

656
00:29:07,175 --> 00:29:10,625
of kind of separating themselves out
of it and letting the business grow

657
00:29:10,625 --> 00:29:13,475
into what it can be as a bigger.

658
00:29:13,895 --> 00:29:17,675
Standalone entity to get
to those larger levels.

659
00:29:17,675 --> 00:29:21,845
I think, you know, people talk about
the, the, the hurdle for, for small

660
00:29:21,850 --> 00:29:24,635
businesses, you know, like the first
one being like cracking that million

661
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,865
dollar a year mark, and then the next
one's the 5 million mark, and then after

662
00:29:28,865 --> 00:29:32,658
that it's 10, and once you hit 10, it
kind of goes exponential from there.

663
00:29:32,673 --> 00:29:34,093
at least from what I've heard anyway.

664
00:29:34,119 --> 00:29:36,056
we, we, we really struggled.

665
00:29:36,776 --> 00:29:41,816
We, we hovered around 5 million
for, for about 10 years now.

666
00:29:41,816 --> 00:29:45,296
Part of that was, you
know, 2008 recession hit.

667
00:29:45,776 --> 00:29:49,766
Part of that was c you know,
chalk that up to what it was.

668
00:29:49,766 --> 00:29:55,136
But honestly, I think even if that had
all been taken outta the equation, I think

669
00:29:55,136 --> 00:29:59,756
the business would still be, you know,
hovering right around five to 6 million a.

670
00:30:00,611 --> 00:30:04,841
Because I don't think it's
been able to evolve beyond that

671
00:30:04,841 --> 00:30:06,461
small business mentality yet.

672
00:30:06,761 --> 00:30:11,141
And I, and I think that's a, I think
that's a struggle that that ownership is

673
00:30:11,141 --> 00:30:13,601
gonna have there in, in, in doing that.

674
00:30:13,601 --> 00:30:15,371
So I think

675
00:30:15,376 --> 00:30:18,251
Bryant Gillespie: that's like
a whole hour long conversation

676
00:30:18,251 --> 00:30:19,511
in and of itself probably.

677
00:30:20,081 --> 00:30:20,621
Oh, yeah.

678
00:30:20,621 --> 00:30:25,961
Getting past this mentality that so
often we have, you know, and, and

679
00:30:25,961 --> 00:30:31,841
like admittedly even I like personally
have some of those hangups now.

680
00:30:32,201 --> 00:30:37,571
Like growing up we weren't rich and we
weren't dirt poor or anything, but like,

681
00:30:37,571 --> 00:30:40,841
even some of the financial decisions
that I make personally now, or like,

682
00:30:41,291 --> 00:30:46,571
I'll catch myself like, Oh hey, like,
hey, like these beliefs that were

683
00:30:46,571 --> 00:30:52,001
there 10 years ago when I was young
and, and tons of credit card debt.

684
00:30:52,241 --> 00:30:52,601
Yeah.

685
00:30:52,601 --> 00:30:54,551
They still bubble up to
the surface sometimes.

686
00:30:54,611 --> 00:30:54,681
Mm-hmm.

687
00:30:54,689 --> 00:30:57,479
and totally a hundred
percent on the business side.

688
00:30:58,664 --> 00:31:03,104
That identity of the owner can be an
asset in the very beginning because

689
00:31:03,104 --> 00:31:04,274
you're driving the whole thing.

690
00:31:04,304 --> 00:31:04,394
Mm-hmm.

691
00:31:04,634 --> 00:31:06,524
, nobody's more invested than you are.

692
00:31:06,524 --> 00:31:07,004
Mm-hmm.

693
00:31:07,454 --> 00:31:11,984
if you can't let go of the reins, and
I've, I've seen this inside shops and

694
00:31:12,044 --> 00:31:13,934
other companies that I've worked for.

695
00:31:13,994 --> 00:31:14,084
Mm-hmm.

696
00:31:15,254 --> 00:31:16,044
, nudge Mike A.

697
00:31:16,044 --> 00:31:16,904
Little bit there.

698
00:31:17,019 --> 00:31:22,029
if, if the owner is afraid to let
go of the reins a bit, then you,

699
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:27,939
you stall out growth, you add
all this complexity and headache.

700
00:31:28,025 --> 00:31:32,705
let's say for an instance, you spend
hours and hours or weeks and weeks

701
00:31:32,735 --> 00:31:34,535
putting all these processes in place.

702
00:31:34,775 --> 00:31:37,415
I know you know what I'm
talking about because you set

703
00:31:37,415 --> 00:31:39,185
up your shop box account mm-hmm.

704
00:31:39,430 --> 00:31:42,005
there, your former company and I
worked with you on some of that.

705
00:31:42,155 --> 00:31:42,225
Mm-hmm.

706
00:31:42,225 --> 00:31:49,328
and then for the owner or somebody else,
higher up to come in and just totally

707
00:31:49,718 --> 00:31:54,318
dis, dis not even pay attention to the
process at all, just skip the process.

708
00:31:54,323 --> 00:31:54,838
Uhhuh.

709
00:31:55,938 --> 00:31:58,968
Jeff Sherman: Well, and you know, it,
it, you mentioned something there, and it

710
00:31:58,968 --> 00:32:04,607
kind of goes back to Pete's question from
earlier, the, the, if, if as an owner.

711
00:32:05,672 --> 00:32:07,982
You are unable to let go of the reins.

712
00:32:08,042 --> 00:32:15,422
And if you're unable to allow the
people that you bring in to do what

713
00:32:15,422 --> 00:32:19,172
it is that you brought them in to do,
and you, if you're unable to allow

714
00:32:19,172 --> 00:32:22,832
them a certain level of autonomy to
help you move that business forward,

715
00:32:23,732 --> 00:32:24,842
then those people will leave.

716
00:32:26,102 --> 00:32:30,542
So we talked about kind of turnover
and churn that I, that, that,

717
00:32:30,542 --> 00:32:32,253
that I saw, from an employee base.

718
00:32:32,253 --> 00:32:39,993
And that was one of the biggest things
was bringing people in, number one,

719
00:32:39,993 --> 00:32:45,003
without really fully establishing
what it was that they were gonna be

720
00:32:45,003 --> 00:32:47,433
doing or what the, what the role was.

721
00:32:47,433 --> 00:32:51,293
Because it was, again, a more of
a sales pitch to get them into the

722
00:32:51,298 --> 00:32:55,683
door rather than an actual recruiting
and, and, and hiring process.

723
00:32:55,718 --> 00:33:02,001
but two, then once they're there,
Not really letting them, do what

724
00:33:02,001 --> 00:33:03,201
it was that they needed to do.

725
00:33:03,201 --> 00:33:08,781
Not empowering them, you know,
tasking them, but then coming in and

726
00:33:08,781 --> 00:33:11,991
stepping in and taking things over
and not letting them do what they

727
00:33:11,991 --> 00:33:14,121
need to do and not letting them fail.

728
00:33:14,361 --> 00:33:18,951
Being afraid to let them fail, you
know, going back to the training

729
00:33:18,951 --> 00:33:21,711
thing, you, you've gotta be able
to let people make mistakes.

730
00:33:22,191 --> 00:33:25,761
You have to be willing to absorb
that cost in the learning as

731
00:33:25,761 --> 00:33:26,991
part of the learning process.

732
00:33:26,996 --> 00:33:29,841
Cause that is the only way you're
gonna learn, is to make the mistakes.

733
00:33:31,791 --> 00:33:32,361
Bryant Gillespie: A hundred percent.

734
00:33:32,811 --> 00:33:33,831
Let me ask you this, Jeff.

735
00:33:33,861 --> 00:33:33,981
Yeah.

736
00:33:34,161 --> 00:33:37,881
I, I was having this conversation
with somebody earlier today on one of

737
00:33:37,881 --> 00:33:43,401
my 8,000 meetings that I've had this
week, but it, like, what was the, you

738
00:33:43,401 --> 00:33:45,801
guys did a fair bit of fabrication.

739
00:33:45,891 --> 00:33:45,981
Mm-hmm.

740
00:33:46,221 --> 00:33:48,921
, like what was the onboarding time?

741
00:33:50,091 --> 00:33:54,051
And like, what would you peg the
estimated cost at to get somebody

742
00:33:54,621 --> 00:33:59,001
up to speed to where they could
actually produce signage for you guys?

743
00:33:59,022 --> 00:34:00,957
Jeff Sherman: you, you mean, so
you're talking an, an inexperienced

744
00:34:00,957 --> 00:34:03,027
person, a a, a green, a green hire.

745
00:34:03,747 --> 00:34:04,137
Peter Kourounis: Yeah.

746
00:34:04,142 --> 00:34:04,317
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

747
00:34:04,317 --> 00:34:08,697
Basically I, I've got this guy that I
was talking to, having a very hard time

748
00:34:08,697 --> 00:34:12,867
finding anybody that's, that's actually
skilled in the, the trade mm-hmm.

749
00:34:12,967 --> 00:34:16,857
and, you know, for better or
worse, that's the story for a

750
00:34:16,857 --> 00:34:18,267
lot of shop owners that we talk

751
00:34:18,267 --> 00:34:18,537
Jeff Sherman: to.

752
00:34:18,597 --> 00:34:19,017
Sure, sure.

753
00:34:19,078 --> 00:34:22,964
I, I would say a minimum of six
months to like, have actual,

754
00:34:22,964 --> 00:34:25,094
like solid contribution value.

755
00:34:25,394 --> 00:34:29,954
You'll probably start generally figure
you start breaking even around month

756
00:34:29,954 --> 00:34:34,454
three or four on like, you know, what
you're paying them versus what you

757
00:34:34,454 --> 00:34:37,904
might be getting out of them in a, in
a, in a contribution to the production.

758
00:34:38,204 --> 00:34:39,584
First three months are a straight loss.

759
00:34:39,694 --> 00:34:42,784
but yeah, I would, I would say six
months to get to a point where you're

760
00:34:43,224 --> 00:34:46,534
actually like starting to make some
actual profit dollars off the labor

761
00:34:46,534 --> 00:34:47,354
that you're getting out of them.

762
00:34:47,358 --> 00:34:54,138
and to have a, like is every shop is
so different on how they run things.

763
00:34:54,138 --> 00:34:58,578
And, and, and I, I've, I've, you know,
it's one of those funny things working

764
00:34:58,578 --> 00:35:00,918
for the same place for almost 19 years.

765
00:35:01,010 --> 00:35:04,850
I'm a little bit insulated from how
things are done around other shops.

766
00:35:04,850 --> 00:35:07,820
You know, I, my, my exposure
to other shops is not.

767
00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:12,320
Nearly what you guys have, you know,
working where you did and, and coming in

768
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,300
contact with so many different companies.

769
00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:19,910
So, but so I, I do know that, that some
places, you know, they, they'll have

770
00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:22,250
people that just do one particular thing.

771
00:35:22,255 --> 00:35:26,060
Like you've got, you got a guy
that just, just applies vinyl.

772
00:35:26,060 --> 00:35:29,210
You got a, another guy
that just runs the theban.

773
00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:33,080
You got another guy that, that
runs the CNC and what have you.

774
00:35:34,190 --> 00:35:37,220
For us, we had a, we had a
finished department that, you

775
00:35:37,220 --> 00:35:38,480
know, they would do everything.

776
00:35:38,810 --> 00:35:41,420
Like we didn't have a
painter or two painters.

777
00:35:42,050 --> 00:35:45,230
All of the guys that we had
in our finish area would do.

778
00:35:45,740 --> 00:35:49,010
They'd do plastics fab, they'd
do vinyl applications, they do

779
00:35:49,010 --> 00:35:55,010
painting, they do prep, they do edge
treatments, they do trim capping.

780
00:35:55,010 --> 00:35:57,340
They do, you know, banner lays.

781
00:35:57,345 --> 00:36:02,750
They, they pretty much, you know,
were all around signs, fabricators.

782
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,606
So to get somebody from nothing to that
kinda level, I mean, you're talking

783
00:36:07,611 --> 00:36:13,325
years, but you know specifically
Yeah, I'd say at least six months.

784
00:36:13,505 --> 00:36:16,895
And, and, and then again, part of
that is, is how do you approach that?

785
00:36:16,895 --> 00:36:22,355
You know, do, do you do the approach that
I'm talking about, where do you send your

786
00:36:22,355 --> 00:36:26,325
fabricator out with your installer, right?

787
00:36:26,465 --> 00:36:29,555
Do you take the time, Do you invest
the time to, to give them that

788
00:36:29,555 --> 00:36:31,925
extra, that extra training do?

789
00:36:32,015 --> 00:36:38,615
I mean, for me, sending a fabricator out
with an installer is huge because them

790
00:36:38,620 --> 00:36:43,145
getting to see something out in the field
or experience something out in the field,

791
00:36:43,175 --> 00:36:48,035
maybe the difference between them building
something one way or building something

792
00:36:48,245 --> 00:36:52,115
slightly different so it's easier for
install down, down, down the field.

793
00:36:52,175 --> 00:36:52,535
Right?

794
00:36:53,495 --> 00:36:54,035
Bryant Gillespie: Absolutely.

795
00:36:54,305 --> 00:36:54,635
Yeah.

796
00:36:54,815 --> 00:36:58,205
And I know that's one of your
claims to fame, Mike, on the sign.

797
00:36:59,795 --> 00:37:03,995
side of things is like, Hey,
I know I've been in the field.

798
00:37:03,995 --> 00:37:08,465
I know what it's like to have to
improvise on an install because the

799
00:37:08,465 --> 00:37:10,445
designer didn't do his homework.

800
00:37:10,505 --> 00:37:10,595
Mm-hmm.

801
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:11,555
on the front end.

802
00:37:12,695 --> 00:37:12,935
Michael Riley: Yeah.

803
00:37:12,940 --> 00:37:14,915
That's, that's, that's huge.

804
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,305
I mean, I'm amazed at how many
shops don't understand that.

805
00:37:19,305 --> 00:37:19,665
Mm-hmm.

806
00:37:19,935 --> 00:37:24,245
, I mean, I, I think, I think everybody in
the shop, what, you know, has anything

807
00:37:24,245 --> 00:37:27,485
to do with the sign from, from sales
all the way down through fabrication.

808
00:37:27,965 --> 00:37:31,955
Should always be on site, on an
installation, Well, not everyone, but

809
00:37:31,955 --> 00:37:34,835
I mean, they, they definitely need to
spend some time out in the field with the

810
00:37:34,835 --> 00:37:38,795
installers because install is a totally
different discipline than anything else

811
00:37:38,795 --> 00:37:40,115
that happens under the roof in the shop.

812
00:37:40,115 --> 00:37:41,735
I mean, it's a completely
different animal.

813
00:37:41,740 --> 00:37:41,945
Mm-hmm.

814
00:37:42,365 --> 00:37:45,635
and it's, it's really hard to
understand until you've actually been

815
00:37:45,635 --> 00:37:48,725
there and done that and seen the shit
hit the fan in the field and you.

816
00:37:49,505 --> 00:37:51,185
Think on your feet, Figure
out how to fix this.

817
00:37:51,665 --> 00:37:53,645
Cause you know, like remaking
the sign isn't an option.

818
00:37:53,645 --> 00:37:54,725
Like it's gotta be on the wall today.

819
00:37:54,725 --> 00:37:55,565
No, we have sands or butts.

820
00:37:55,565 --> 00:37:56,435
How are we gonna do this?

821
00:37:57,005 --> 00:38:03,335
And it, seeing that happen in real
time and seeing those guys figure

822
00:38:03,340 --> 00:38:05,105
it out in real time A is amazing.

823
00:38:05,105 --> 00:38:07,745
I mean, like installers in
this industry don't, don't get

824
00:38:07,805 --> 00:38:08,885
the praise that they deserve.

825
00:38:08,885 --> 00:38:08,975
Yep.

826
00:38:08,975 --> 00:38:13,535
They are, I don't even know what the
right adjective for them is, but they're

827
00:38:13,535 --> 00:38:18,605
miracle workers and a lot of the things
that they face in the field could

828
00:38:18,605 --> 00:38:23,765
and should be prevented if everybody
else in front of that understood

829
00:38:23,770 --> 00:38:25,396
what the installers had to face.

830
00:38:25,410 --> 00:38:28,350
I'm a, I'm a huge proponent of
everybody, especially designers

831
00:38:28,350 --> 00:38:31,320
going out in the field and, and,
you know, either participating in

832
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,610
or observing installations because
there's so much to learn there that,

833
00:38:35,700 --> 00:38:40,920
you know, in this industry where the
rubber hits the road is, is critical.

834
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,210
And that's where it turns, It goes
from a fabrication project or an art

835
00:38:45,210 --> 00:38:46,950
project to a construction project.

836
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,010
And at the end of the day, signs
are construction projects and, and

837
00:38:50,010 --> 00:38:53,220
thinking about it and looking at
it from that perspective is hugely

838
00:38:53,220 --> 00:38:55,080
valuable for, for everybody involved.

839
00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:59,520
So, you know, I'm, I'm a hundred
percent team, send everybody out.

840
00:38:59,525 --> 00:39:00,900
And I, you know, I agree
with you Jeff, too.

841
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:04,980
I, I, I saw the same thing
at my shop, the three to six

842
00:39:04,980 --> 00:39:07,500
months to really start seeing.

843
00:39:08,105 --> 00:39:10,745
I don't even know at six months if
the, if that employee is profitable.

844
00:39:10,745 --> 00:39:13,895
But that's really where they start
contributing and making a difference.

845
00:39:13,895 --> 00:39:16,775
And, and, and prior to that six month
mark, I mean, you have to look at

846
00:39:16,775 --> 00:39:19,865
it as that's investment time only.

847
00:39:20,225 --> 00:39:24,065
You can't, even if somebody's a really
seasoned, experienced sign person,

848
00:39:24,665 --> 00:39:27,035
they're probably not gonna start
contributing right away because you

849
00:39:27,035 --> 00:39:28,205
do things a little bit differently.

850
00:39:28,205 --> 00:39:32,075
There's no, there's zero consistency in
this industry from one shop to the next.

851
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:32,285
Right.

852
00:39:32,375 --> 00:39:34,205
Jeff Sherman: Very least your
shop's laid out different.

853
00:39:34,205 --> 00:39:34,475
Right.

854
00:39:35,825 --> 00:39:36,095
Right.

855
00:39:36,095 --> 00:39:36,605
Michael Riley: Exactly.

856
00:39:36,605 --> 00:39:38,885
Like, I don't, I don't
know where this tool is.

857
00:39:38,885 --> 00:39:40,055
It's gonna take me an hour to find it.

858
00:39:40,113 --> 00:39:40,353
yeah.

859
00:39:40,353 --> 00:39:42,603
I, I think that if you're hiring
a new employee, like you just

860
00:39:42,603 --> 00:39:44,883
have to look at that first three
to six month onboarding time as.

861
00:39:45,568 --> 00:39:47,698
as, as an investment
and only an investment.

862
00:39:47,698 --> 00:39:50,338
And, and I think that's where a lot
of shop owners fall short is they're,

863
00:39:50,818 --> 00:39:53,278
you know, like you said, they're so
desperate to get somebody in that seat

864
00:39:53,283 --> 00:39:57,358
that they, they don't have the forward
vision to recognize that this person isn't

865
00:39:57,363 --> 00:39:59,098
going to solve my problems right away.

866
00:39:59,103 --> 00:39:59,328
Yeah.

867
00:40:00,058 --> 00:40:01,318
And it's gonna take a while.

868
00:40:01,588 --> 00:40:06,268
And, and so then that just keeps that
business owner in the mindset of, of

869
00:40:06,268 --> 00:40:09,508
doing everything themselves and not
delegating, and not giving people the,

870
00:40:09,508 --> 00:40:12,418
the time and space to learn and make
mistakes and learn from those mistakes.

871
00:40:12,423 --> 00:40:12,648
Mm-hmm.

872
00:40:12,808 --> 00:40:13,768
. And so then they never learn.

873
00:40:13,858 --> 00:40:15,028
And then that problem is never solved.

874
00:40:15,028 --> 00:40:16,318
It just continues to
compound over and over

875
00:40:16,323 --> 00:40:16,648
Jeff Sherman: time.

876
00:40:16,648 --> 00:40:16,738
Mm-hmm.

877
00:40:17,698 --> 00:40:21,400
. Well, so, I mean, you, you all, you,
you, you had a franchise, right?

878
00:40:21,405 --> 00:40:23,320
You, you own, you owned a franchise.

879
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:24,280
You ran a franchise.

880
00:40:26,050 --> 00:40:27,490
I created a franchise.

881
00:40:28,405 --> 00:40:28,735
Yes.

882
00:40:28,735 --> 00:40:30,085
You created a franchise?

883
00:40:30,835 --> 00:40:31,315
Yes.

884
00:40:31,405 --> 00:40:32,665
Oh, okay.

885
00:40:33,175 --> 00:40:33,745
All right.

886
00:40:33,791 --> 00:40:34,817
that's, that's a whole, that's

887
00:40:35,147 --> 00:40:36,527
Bryant Gillespie: why I
called him Sign Shop Yoga.

888
00:40:36,532 --> 00:40:36,827
Yeah.

889
00:40:36,887 --> 00:40:37,427
Okay.

890
00:40:37,427 --> 00:40:37,757
Jeff Sherman: That's right.

891
00:40:37,757 --> 00:40:38,537
Edit the franchise.

892
00:40:38,857 --> 00:40:41,237
I, I wasn't, I was not aware of that.

893
00:40:41,267 --> 00:40:41,687
Okay.

894
00:40:41,687 --> 00:40:43,187
Well, good on you, man.

895
00:40:43,248 --> 00:40:46,826
that's, that's a, that's a whole other,
that's a whole other, beast there.

896
00:40:46,826 --> 00:40:50,666
And, and Brian, I know you had your
shop and Mike, you had your shop.

897
00:40:50,666 --> 00:40:55,106
So having like, did each
of you have struggles with,

898
00:40:55,436 --> 00:40:56,846
How did you onboard people?

899
00:40:56,851 --> 00:40:58,976
How did you train people?

900
00:41:01,016 --> 00:41:02,156
Bryant Gillespie: Throw them to the fire?

901
00:41:02,156 --> 00:41:02,606
My friend.

902
00:41:02,606 --> 00:41:08,996
That's, that's the like 95% solution
for every shop that we talk to.

903
00:41:08,996 --> 00:41:14,336
Hey, watch this guy work for two weeks,
and then hey, you're gonna contribute.

904
00:41:14,486 --> 00:41:14,895
You know?

905
00:41:14,895 --> 00:41:15,043
yeah.

906
00:41:15,048 --> 00:41:18,043
Back in the day, I didn't
know what I know now.

907
00:41:18,103 --> 00:41:18,163
Yeah.

908
00:41:18,163 --> 00:41:20,463
You know, we, we.

909
00:41:21,388 --> 00:41:22,018
Tried.

910
00:41:22,085 --> 00:41:26,509
yeah, we were in a super small town, which
is always hard to find talented people.

911
00:41:26,569 --> 00:41:26,659
Mm-hmm.

912
00:41:27,904 --> 00:41:31,624
. Even, even not experienced people,
just people that had a good work

913
00:41:31,714 --> 00:41:36,424
ethic and could show up on time and
willing to learn and put in the hours

914
00:41:36,424 --> 00:41:38,201
because it's, it's not easy work.

915
00:41:38,206 --> 00:41:38,501
Mm-hmm.

916
00:41:38,581 --> 00:41:43,661
and it's, you know, you can't
show up hungover at a 30

917
00:41:43,661 --> 00:41:44,951
minutes late and expect to do

918
00:41:44,951 --> 00:41:45,581
Jeff Sherman: good work.

919
00:41:45,761 --> 00:41:47,741
You can Oh, okay.

920
00:41:47,746 --> 00:41:47,921
Sorry.

921
00:41:48,521 --> 00:41:48,761
I mean,

922
00:41:48,761 --> 00:41:48,911
at

923
00:41:48,911 --> 00:41:49,271
Bryant Gillespie: least I could

924
00:41:51,091 --> 00:41:52,221
Jeff Sherman: Unless you're owner.

925
00:41:52,221 --> 00:41:53,141
Unless you're the owner.

926
00:41:53,141 --> 00:41:53,741
You're the owner.

927
00:41:53,741 --> 00:41:54,011
Yeah.

928
00:41:54,491 --> 00:41:54,791
Yeah.

929
00:41:55,151 --> 00:42:00,191
Well, you know, I'll tell you, you know,
being in Southern California with, you

930
00:42:00,191 --> 00:42:05,171
know, literally millions upon millions of
people in the area, it's still difficult

931
00:42:05,171 --> 00:42:10,811
to find people who wanna work and put in
a, a hard day's work and, you know, be

932
00:42:10,816 --> 00:42:15,861
willing to stand on their feet and, you
know, this, that, and the other thing.

933
00:42:15,861 --> 00:42:19,935
so I don't, I don't know that a
small town is, is, Is is much worse.

934
00:42:19,995 --> 00:42:23,322
But, I think it's just more
opportunity for failure out here.

935
00:42:23,802 --> 00:42:27,511
But, yeah, I mean, so like, yeah, and we,
and we did our fair amount of that, you

936
00:42:27,511 --> 00:42:31,891
know, to bring, bring them in, let 'em,
you know, have, you know, you're gonna

937
00:42:31,896 --> 00:42:34,831
weed vinyl for a week, so let's just,
you know, let's just pull a bunch of

938
00:42:34,836 --> 00:42:37,441
vinyl at you and expect you to do that.

939
00:42:38,221 --> 00:42:40,441
And, and that's, that's
everybody's onboarding.

940
00:42:40,441 --> 00:42:43,225
And then, then, you know, then you
hand them, you know, then you hand them

941
00:42:43,225 --> 00:42:46,375
some sand paper and you have 'em start
sanding things and prepping things

942
00:42:46,380 --> 00:42:50,485
for your paint guy and, you know,
eventually you get him productive.

943
00:42:51,325 --> 00:42:52,521
I dunno, that's,

944
00:42:52,521 --> 00:42:53,253
Bryant Gillespie: that's fun stuff.

945
00:42:53,253 --> 00:42:53,313
Yeah.

946
00:42:53,373 --> 00:42:56,293
Back in the day, it, it wasn't
a, a solid plan know mm-hmm.

947
00:42:56,373 --> 00:42:58,263
, you know, at at shop box.

948
00:42:58,291 --> 00:43:03,301
you know, when I hired folks like Mike or
anybody else, I tried to be more strategic

949
00:43:03,306 --> 00:43:05,195
about that and have, like an actual plan.

950
00:43:05,195 --> 00:43:07,655
Like, Hey, here's your
first three or four weeks.

951
00:43:07,745 --> 00:43:07,835
Mm-hmm.

952
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:10,880
but, but honestly should have
extended that even further.

953
00:43:11,235 --> 00:43:12,795
Yeah, about two, six months.

954
00:43:12,855 --> 00:43:13,185
So

955
00:43:13,645 --> 00:43:16,215
Michael Riley: if, if, I think that's,
that's a tricky comparison though too,

956
00:43:16,215 --> 00:43:21,735
because like something like training
people to use software, I mean,

957
00:43:21,735 --> 00:43:25,365
there's a lot of nuances to it that are
customer specific, but it, it's cut.

958
00:43:25,365 --> 00:43:26,625
It's a little bit more of a repeat.

959
00:43:26,625 --> 00:43:26,865
Yeah.

960
00:43:26,865 --> 00:43:28,575
It's a little bit more a
repeatable process where

961
00:43:28,635 --> 00:43:30,025
there's no creativity, signages.

962
00:43:30,975 --> 00:43:31,305
Bryant Gillespie: I mean,

963
00:43:33,675 --> 00:43:38,765
Michael Riley: you can get creative just
to kinda, well, the board . I don't know

964
00:43:38,765 --> 00:43:40,805
if it's the same kind of creativity.

965
00:43:41,195 --> 00:43:43,925
I, you know, I think, I think
in a sign shop like it, because

966
00:43:43,925 --> 00:43:45,575
every job is so, so different.

967
00:43:45,575 --> 00:43:49,565
Even if, if this job calls for, you
know, metal fabrication and paint and

968
00:43:49,565 --> 00:43:54,545
vinyl and, and assembly and whatever,
even though the steps are fairly similar

969
00:43:54,545 --> 00:43:59,555
from sign to sign, like every sign is so
different and there's so much, there's,

970
00:43:59,555 --> 00:44:02,165
there's, there's just, there's a huge
difference from one side to the next.

971
00:44:02,165 --> 00:44:05,345
And the skills required, even though
they're, they're similar on paper.

972
00:44:05,795 --> 00:44:08,015
There's so much thinking on
your feet that has to be done.

973
00:44:08,020 --> 00:44:10,175
There's so much figuring it out as you go.

974
00:44:10,445 --> 00:44:17,225
Just by the nature of this, this
industry that it's hard, it's hard

975
00:44:17,225 --> 00:44:21,245
to put a really, like a hard and fast
like training program in place that.

976
00:44:21,935 --> 00:44:22,715
All the bases.

977
00:44:22,715 --> 00:44:24,905
I mean, you can teach people how
to be a good employee and you can

978
00:44:24,905 --> 00:44:28,955
teach 'em the rules of the shop
and, and, and the high level stuff.

979
00:44:28,955 --> 00:44:33,065
But at the end of the day, like there's,
there's zero substitute for experience.

980
00:44:33,070 --> 00:44:33,155
Mm-hmm.

981
00:44:33,455 --> 00:44:37,025
and just hands on, you know, rolling up
your sleeves and doing it and screwing

982
00:44:37,030 --> 00:44:40,265
it up a few times to, to be successful.

983
00:44:40,265 --> 00:44:42,365
And the only, I think the only people
that are successful in this business,

984
00:44:42,365 --> 00:44:45,635
cuz this, you know, this business is a
trade, and this is true of any trade,

985
00:44:45,635 --> 00:44:49,025
is, is the people that are successful,
the ones that are gonna be able to learn

986
00:44:49,030 --> 00:44:53,105
from their mistakes and, and, and piece
that, you know, piece of thread together

987
00:44:53,105 --> 00:44:54,725
there and say, Okay, this is what I did.

988
00:44:54,725 --> 00:44:55,415
This is the outcome.

989
00:44:55,415 --> 00:44:56,255
It wasn't correct.

990
00:44:56,885 --> 00:44:59,555
If I go backwards and re-engineer
this in my brain, I can figure

991
00:44:59,555 --> 00:45:01,715
out what I did wrong and next
time I'm gonna do it this way.

992
00:45:02,585 --> 00:45:05,375
If somebody doesn't have that ability
to do that, no matter what, like no

993
00:45:05,375 --> 00:45:07,505
matter how good your training program
is, they're not gonna, they're not gonna

994
00:45:07,505 --> 00:45:10,055
be successful in this industry or any.

995
00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:11,090
Right.

996
00:45:11,690 --> 00:45:14,720
You can't teach somebody to be a
problem solver and a creative thinker.

997
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:17,270
That's just that innate, You gotta

998
00:45:17,270 --> 00:45:17,360
Peter Kourounis: ask.

999
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:17,720
Yeah.

1000
00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:21,650
When I was, when I was training owners,
or when I was training employees

1001
00:45:21,655 --> 00:45:25,700
or recruiting, the, the, the number
one bucket for me was they needed

1002
00:45:25,700 --> 00:45:29,410
to have this, do whatever it takes
mentality, you know, and mm-hmm.

1003
00:45:29,490 --> 00:45:33,350
and that, and that kind of speaks
to what Mike was just saying, but

1004
00:45:33,350 --> 00:45:37,070
also what you said earlier, Jeff, is
that, you know, God gave you two ears

1005
00:45:37,075 --> 00:45:40,580
in one mouth, so you should listen
more than you should talk, Right?

1006
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:45,650
So when you're, when you're interviewing
those people, even in that first

1007
00:45:45,655 --> 00:45:50,030
interview process, or even on the phone
call, the first phone call during the

1008
00:45:50,030 --> 00:45:54,755
recruitment, you know, you're, I'm,
I'm training my owners and training

1009
00:45:54,755 --> 00:45:58,793
my, managers that whoever's doing
the rehiring and recruiting, that you

1010
00:45:58,793 --> 00:46:03,923
are looking to ask questions to see
how they're gonna respond in that.

1011
00:46:03,928 --> 00:46:08,093
The ideology of, will they be able to do
whatever it takes to get the job done?

1012
00:46:09,113 --> 00:46:12,743
Mike said something earlier that they,
they, the people that find success are the

1013
00:46:12,743 --> 00:46:15,353
ones that can learn from their mistakes.

1014
00:46:15,383 --> 00:46:19,343
I'll even second I, I'll echo that,
but I'll go a step, I'll go a step

1015
00:46:19,348 --> 00:46:23,333
beyond that and that people that
are successful have to go into this

1016
00:46:23,333 --> 00:46:25,223
knowing that they will make mistakes.

1017
00:46:25,933 --> 00:46:26,543
Mm-hmm.

1018
00:46:26,628 --> 00:46:29,003
and when they go, when
they are making mistakes.

1019
00:46:29,003 --> 00:46:29,213
Yes.

1020
00:46:29,273 --> 00:46:31,463
Then Mike's, what he said is
right, is that they have to

1021
00:46:31,463 --> 00:46:32,783
learn from those mistakes.

1022
00:46:33,083 --> 00:46:38,123
So whether that's hiring the right
people or hiring the wrong people, or

1023
00:46:38,123 --> 00:46:42,293
training somebody, or training somebody
terribly and then it didn't work out.

1024
00:46:42,298 --> 00:46:46,943
They have to be able to make changes,
whether it's incremental or drastic.

1025
00:46:47,618 --> 00:46:52,133
in that, in that people
recruitment topic, right?

1026
00:46:52,283 --> 00:46:56,813
Whether it's, whether it is hiring
or whether it is training, whatever

1027
00:46:56,818 --> 00:46:59,573
it is, you have to be able to
learn from, from those mistakes.

1028
00:46:59,603 --> 00:47:05,327
One little helpful tip for, for some
of the, owners out there just that are

1029
00:47:05,627 --> 00:47:10,757
thinking about how to prove that their
training could be better or how to make

1030
00:47:10,757 --> 00:47:15,854
their training better, there is a great
tool out there, called One Huddle.

1031
00:47:16,604 --> 00:47:19,724
One Huddle, if you've never heard
of it, there based out of Newark,

1032
00:47:19,729 --> 00:47:23,114
New Jersey, and they take the train.

1033
00:47:23,234 --> 00:47:25,294
Jeff Sherman: They, they
have rethought thought

1034
00:47:25,664 --> 00:47:28,304
Peter Kourounis: and reimplemented
the strategy of how people.

1035
00:47:28,889 --> 00:47:32,549
Thinking about training and
turned it into games to play.

1036
00:47:34,319 --> 00:47:37,079
So they gamified the training platform.

1037
00:47:37,559 --> 00:47:42,419
So you can make a course that, say
for a graphic designer, you can

1038
00:47:42,424 --> 00:47:45,329
make a course of videos to watch.

1039
00:47:45,329 --> 00:47:48,599
Maybe you can download them from
YouTube and that if you want,

1040
00:47:48,599 --> 00:47:49,919
you can only take the easy way.

1041
00:47:50,129 --> 00:47:53,309
You can do it that way, or you could
make your own and then you're gonna

1042
00:47:53,309 --> 00:47:55,379
give a game that you're gonna play.

1043
00:47:56,339 --> 00:48:02,189
After watching that video or reading
this article or case study and you're

1044
00:48:02,189 --> 00:48:05,729
gonna quantify their knowledge, right?

1045
00:48:05,729 --> 00:48:06,989
And then here's the best part.

1046
00:48:07,289 --> 00:48:10,859
They can compete against
other team members, other

1047
00:48:10,864 --> 00:48:14,009
employees, other shops even.

1048
00:48:14,489 --> 00:48:17,549
And being able to have like
that competitive nature

1049
00:48:17,549 --> 00:48:19,049
that games normally have.

1050
00:48:19,049 --> 00:48:22,409
So I've seen, I've seen a
couple of shops go this way.

1051
00:48:22,409 --> 00:48:26,759
You know, there are a lot of shops
that use like train to develop manuals

1052
00:48:26,759 --> 00:48:30,479
and courses and little and pieces
and collateral and things like that.

1053
00:48:30,869 --> 00:48:35,759
But I've seen many franchises go,
or many shops go toward the down

1054
00:48:35,759 --> 00:48:40,109
the rabbit hole of gamifying their
training to make it more engaging.

1055
00:48:40,114 --> 00:48:45,629
Cause like I said earlier, involving
your candidate into the process.

1056
00:48:46,019 --> 00:48:47,999
By getting them to do something.

1057
00:48:48,119 --> 00:48:53,609
Compete is a way of retaining
knowledge and, and maybe shortening

1058
00:48:53,609 --> 00:48:57,119
that window from what you said
earlier about minimum six months.

1059
00:48:57,389 --> 00:49:00,987
Maybe we can bring that down with
something like this, down to three

1060
00:49:00,992 --> 00:49:05,877
months or maybe even sooner, depending
on the role and the size of the company.

1061
00:49:06,417 --> 00:49:10,197
But for the most part, and I think
I was talking to Brian about this

1062
00:49:10,197 --> 00:49:15,147
earlier in the week, that there is a,
there's a line in the sand right there,

1063
00:49:15,147 --> 00:49:21,927
there's a line in the sand between
shop owners, shop managers, and, and

1064
00:49:21,927 --> 00:49:24,297
then there's franchise owners, right?

1065
00:49:24,297 --> 00:49:26,337
Franchise owners, when
they buy a franchise.

1066
00:49:26,337 --> 00:49:29,637
This is a little bit more in my
background here, when they, like I

1067
00:49:29,642 --> 00:49:32,817
said, I was telling this to Brian
earlier, when you're buying a franchise,

1068
00:49:32,817 --> 00:49:34,257
you're not buying, Yeah, okay.

1069
00:49:34,257 --> 00:49:35,757
You could be buying their name.

1070
00:49:36,567 --> 00:49:40,527
Sure, but if you are, But what
you're really buying is all those

1071
00:49:40,527 --> 00:49:45,387
systematic approaches that you and I
are discussing that shop owners on the

1072
00:49:45,392 --> 00:49:51,477
other side of the fence don't have,
They have to invest time and money into

1073
00:49:51,537 --> 00:49:53,607
designing and making it themselves.

1074
00:49:53,967 --> 00:49:58,137
Whereas, okay, all of those playbooks,
all of those manuals, all of those

1075
00:49:58,197 --> 00:50:03,447
onboarding processes, training on how
to recruit, training on how to hire,

1076
00:50:03,447 --> 00:50:07,557
what interview questions to ask, what
job descriptions you should write out,

1077
00:50:07,827 --> 00:50:10,197
you know, all of that has been done.

1078
00:50:10,197 --> 00:50:14,847
All you gotta do is just take it, change
a couple of variables and throw it out

1079
00:50:14,847 --> 00:50:16,467
there in the universe for your shop.

1080
00:50:16,677 --> 00:50:21,927
And that's where the franchising piece
my background comes into is that when

1081
00:50:21,927 --> 00:50:25,647
I'm train, when I'm working with shop
owners or shop managers on how to improve

1082
00:50:25,652 --> 00:50:31,617
their business or their role, It's often
in developing these strategies that you

1083
00:50:31,622 --> 00:50:33,837
find in this sector of the business.

1084
00:50:34,457 --> 00:50:36,297
Franchising in the signed
business gets a bad name.

1085
00:50:36,357 --> 00:50:41,187
We've had guests on this show
that have made fun of the fact of,

1086
00:50:41,517 --> 00:50:44,937
you know, these little franchise
locations, like fast signs.

1087
00:50:44,942 --> 00:50:46,707
They, they just do these little stickers.

1088
00:50:46,712 --> 00:50:47,007
I think

1089
00:50:47,012 --> 00:50:48,927
Bryant Gillespie: the hosts
have made the host made,

1090
00:50:50,037 --> 00:50:53,667
Peter Kourounis: but, but what you're
not seeing behind that fence might also

1091
00:50:53,667 --> 00:50:58,977
add some value to what you're saying is
that if you are a shop that's struggling

1092
00:50:59,217 --> 00:51:06,237
in these areas, that you don't have
the time to, to, to coach or onboard

1093
00:51:06,537 --> 00:51:10,617
or develop those training manuals or
playbooks, whatever you wanna call them,

1094
00:51:11,097 --> 00:51:13,347
that, that there is an avenue for you.

1095
00:51:13,407 --> 00:51:16,527
There is an avenue to go
down to obtain all of that.

1096
00:51:16,609 --> 00:51:18,049
obviously it costs money.

1097
00:51:18,079 --> 00:51:22,369
It's gonna, it's it, but if you
don't have time, then you have money.

1098
00:51:22,369 --> 00:51:24,349
If you don't have money,
then you must have time.

1099
00:51:24,354 --> 00:51:26,794
So, For those of us that are, that.

1100
00:51:27,724 --> 00:51:28,804
Well, that's what I was getting at.

1101
00:51:28,804 --> 00:51:31,474
If you don't have time or if
you don't have time or money,

1102
00:51:31,474 --> 00:51:32,764
go work for somebody else.

1103
00:51:32,864 --> 00:51:34,144
Jeff Sherman: Don't Yeah.

1104
00:51:34,144 --> 00:51:35,614
Don't, don't start a business.

1105
00:51:36,124 --> 00:51:36,544
Yes.

1106
00:51:37,934 --> 00:51:38,424
Yeah.

1107
00:51:38,824 --> 00:51:40,024
You know, it's interesting.

1108
00:51:40,024 --> 00:51:42,999
I, something occurred to me as you
were talking about that, Pete, it, we

1109
00:51:43,299 --> 00:51:46,149
talk about learning from our mistakes.

1110
00:51:47,469 --> 00:51:50,829
You know, I, I wanna say
there's a, there's a value also.

1111
00:51:50,829 --> 00:51:53,799
You need to be willing and able
to learn from your successes.

1112
00:51:54,309 --> 00:51:59,559
You know, if you, if you have that
employee that takes off, spend

1113
00:51:59,559 --> 00:52:03,969
time, sit down with them and, and
figure out what you did right.

1114
00:52:04,989 --> 00:52:11,709
And then try to replicate that, you
know, so, so, so often we only focus

1115
00:52:11,709 --> 00:52:14,889
on the mistakes, the areas of failure.

1116
00:52:15,579 --> 00:52:17,289
and we lost Mike.

1117
00:52:17,679 --> 00:52:21,669
Oh, . We had . That's
like, what's back there?

1118
00:52:22,989 --> 00:52:23,869
. . So it's so awesome.

1119
00:52:23,874 --> 00:52:23,889
It's

1120
00:52:24,229 --> 00:52:27,069
Bryant Gillespie: a guy in a
burrito suit holding a . It's

1121
00:52:27,069 --> 00:52:28,669
Jeff Sherman: something
you just don't see.

1122
00:52:32,099 --> 00:52:33,509
That's, that's Mike.

1123
00:52:33,509 --> 00:52:34,109
Thank you.

1124
00:52:37,149 --> 00:52:39,009
guy in a burrito suit holding a cat.

1125
00:52:41,919 --> 00:52:43,329
. 
Michael Riley: My life is very strange.

1126
00:52:43,329 --> 00:52:43,419
Yes.

1127
00:52:44,349 --> 00:52:46,179
Jeff Sherman: Mine just got
a little bit surreal as well.

1128
00:52:46,449 --> 00:52:51,142
But yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, learn,
don't, don't just focus on the failures,

1129
00:52:51,142 --> 00:52:55,312
Learn from the mistakes, but figure
out what, what went, what went right.

1130
00:52:55,312 --> 00:52:58,642
Why, you know, if, if,
if you find somebody.

1131
00:52:59,482 --> 00:53:03,982
Having a moment where they make a really
solid decision to change something

1132
00:53:03,982 --> 00:53:09,052
or do something, ask 'em why they
did it, find out what their thought

1133
00:53:09,052 --> 00:53:13,042
process was, figure out what went into
building that thought processes and

1134
00:53:13,042 --> 00:53:14,422
see what you can do to spread that.

1135
00:53:14,542 --> 00:53:18,382
You know, just to, just
the thought off of this.

1136
00:53:18,382 --> 00:53:20,962
Cause like I said, it's so easy
to go negative so often, you know?

1137
00:53:22,372 --> 00:53:22,612
Michael Riley: Yeah.

1138
00:53:23,182 --> 00:53:27,530
Bryant Gillespie: You've obviously,
you were at your former company for

1139
00:53:28,330 --> 00:53:28,820
Jeff Sherman: 19 years, you said?

1140
00:53:28,820 --> 00:53:30,770
Almost 8, 18, 18 years.

1141
00:53:30,770 --> 00:53:34,490
11 months and yeah,
just, just at 11 months.

1142
00:53:36,005 --> 00:53:36,335
Six

1143
00:53:36,335 --> 00:53:36,755
Michael Riley: hours.

1144
00:53:36,755 --> 00:53:37,055
Yes.

1145
00:53:37,355 --> 00:53:37,695
Three days.

1146
00:53:37,700 --> 00:53:38,225
Yes, exactly.

1147
00:53:39,965 --> 00:53:43,205
Bryant Gillespie: and what, what
is, obviously that's a long time.

1148
00:53:43,375 --> 00:53:43,655
Mm-hmm.

1149
00:53:43,775 --> 00:53:46,805
especially two people
in the this day and age.

1150
00:53:46,805 --> 00:53:51,125
Like I was talking with somebody else
yesterday that they mentioned something

1151
00:53:51,125 --> 00:53:54,768
about, millennials think that that
three years is a long time in a job.

1152
00:53:54,798 --> 00:53:54,888
Mm-hmm.

1153
00:53:56,208 --> 00:54:00,828
, what did they do right to
keep you there for 19 years

1154
00:54:01,568 --> 00:54:01,708
Jeff Sherman: ish?

1155
00:54:01,708 --> 00:54:08,952
Well, the, the, the role developed
and expanded to take advantage of my

1156
00:54:08,957 --> 00:54:14,382
skill set, I think is the, you know,
it was recognized where my strengths

1157
00:54:14,382 --> 00:54:17,682
were and I was allowed to apply
my strengths into different areas.

1158
00:54:17,775 --> 00:54:22,048
I was, for a long time, I was allowed
to contribute and, and have a voice.

1159
00:54:22,082 --> 00:54:26,282
so that the kind of contradictory to what
a lot of people that, like we were talking

1160
00:54:26,282 --> 00:54:30,752
about churn, when they kind of come in
and then, and then go out, a lot of times

1161
00:54:30,752 --> 00:54:36,872
it's because they're not allowed to, you
know, have their voice heard, you know,

1162
00:54:36,872 --> 00:54:41,792
and, and, and anybody, I don't care who
it is, I don't care if it's the guy that

1163
00:54:41,792 --> 00:54:43,712
you brought in to, to sweep the floors.

1164
00:54:43,952 --> 00:54:46,472
You know, he, he's, he's
got a brain in his head.

1165
00:54:46,922 --> 00:54:49,202
He's gonna have some idea about something.

1166
00:54:50,427 --> 00:54:58,167
Giving people a, an actual valid and,
and and effective forum, or even just an

1167
00:54:58,167 --> 00:55:04,977
ability to know that they can be heard and
respected and valued as part for, for the

1168
00:55:04,977 --> 00:55:09,567
contribution that they bring that's gonna,
that's gonna buy you your longevity.

1169
00:55:09,657 --> 00:55:10,347
It really is.

1170
00:55:11,097 --> 00:55:11,217
Mm-hmm.

1171
00:55:11,547 --> 00:55:12,447
money helps.

1172
00:55:12,537 --> 00:55:13,017
Sure.

1173
00:55:13,347 --> 00:55:16,737
You know, a lot of owners think,
you know, Well, I just need to give

1174
00:55:16,737 --> 00:55:19,317
raises or bonuses or this kinda stuff.

1175
00:55:20,217 --> 00:55:23,097
Yeah, Money helps, but
it only buys you so much.

1176
00:55:23,157 --> 00:55:24,057
It really does.

1177
00:55:24,327 --> 00:55:28,947
You know, I would not have,
It doesn't buy loyalty.

1178
00:55:28,947 --> 00:55:29,677
No, it doesn't.

1179
00:55:30,407 --> 00:55:31,497
It buys you time.

1180
00:55:32,367 --> 00:55:35,907
But you know, I mean, you really
want to be paying somebody top

1181
00:55:35,907 --> 00:55:39,757
dollar if they're not loyal to
you or if they're not actually.

1182
00:55:40,917 --> 00:55:44,067
I'm gonna use the word committed
to the success of the company.

1183
00:55:44,667 --> 00:55:44,967
You know?

1184
00:55:44,967 --> 00:55:45,267
Sure.

1185
00:55:45,267 --> 00:55:46,707
They might be going through the motions.

1186
00:55:46,707 --> 00:55:46,947
Sure.

1187
00:55:46,947 --> 00:55:51,537
They might be doing a certain amount
of work for you, but, you know,

1188
00:55:51,537 --> 00:55:54,717
it's, it's the whole hearts and minds
thing, and really that, that's all

1189
00:55:54,717 --> 00:55:58,467
about, it's all about validation
and it's all about acknowledgement

1190
00:55:58,467 --> 00:56:00,387
and, and, and, and contribution.

1191
00:56:00,657 --> 00:56:03,500
You know, I heard something a while
back that was like the, the, the

1192
00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:09,300
best way to get somebody connected to
you is to have them do you a favor.

1193
00:56:09,330 --> 00:56:10,920
you would think you'll
do the other way around.

1194
00:56:10,925 --> 00:56:12,600
You do them a favor and
then they're connect.

1195
00:56:12,605 --> 00:56:13,560
No, it's the other way around.

1196
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,920
You have them do you a favor
and that, that ties them to you.

1197
00:56:17,190 --> 00:56:20,310
I, I think from a business
perspective, it's the same way.

1198
00:56:20,310 --> 00:56:26,190
Get, get them to contribute, get them
to know that they're contributing,

1199
00:56:26,195 --> 00:56:28,980
acknowledge that they're contributing
and they're gonna wanna contribute more.

1200
00:56:29,715 --> 00:56:37,125
There it, there's, there's self, you know,
people can, can get self worth from that.

1201
00:56:37,725 --> 00:56:42,312
And ultimately, in addition to, in
addition to money, in, in a way of, of

1202
00:56:42,317 --> 00:56:49,232
living, this is what we spend the majority
of our waking hours doing every day.

1203
00:56:49,232 --> 00:56:52,233
And if we don't feel as though
we're actually contributing or

1204
00:56:52,238 --> 00:56:55,862
doing something of value, why do it?

1205
00:56:58,502 --> 00:56:58,982
Bryant Gillespie: Amen.

1206
00:56:59,102 --> 00:56:59,372
Yeah.

1207
00:56:59,672 --> 00:57:00,452
Couldn't have said that better.

1208
00:57:00,452 --> 00:57:00,602
I think

1209
00:57:00,602 --> 00:57:01,992
Michael Riley: that's the best advice.

1210
00:57:03,622 --> 00:57:04,412
Come outta that.

1211
00:57:05,432 --> 00:57:09,662
No, I, I totally, I mean that I, I've
kind of beat on that horse until it's,

1212
00:57:09,667 --> 00:57:11,102
it's dead quite a few times too, Jeff.

1213
00:57:11,102 --> 00:57:12,452
I mean, and I, I totally agree.

1214
00:57:12,452 --> 00:57:16,112
Like, employees have a life and
they're human beings just like us,

1215
00:57:16,112 --> 00:57:22,142
and they, everybody wants to feel
like their existence is for something.

1216
00:57:22,142 --> 00:57:22,232
Mm-hmm.

1217
00:57:22,472 --> 00:57:24,422
, everybody who wants to feel like,
you know, whatever they're doing,

1218
00:57:24,422 --> 00:57:28,922
whether it's vacuuming the floor,
Cleaning up a cat accident on a chair.

1219
00:57:29,532 --> 00:57:30,142
Mm-hmm.

1220
00:57:31,022 --> 00:57:34,382
, or making a sign like, Right, Like they
wanna feel like what they're doing is

1221
00:57:34,782 --> 00:57:35,702
contributing to the bigger picture.

1222
00:57:36,152 --> 00:57:37,562
That's just part of human nature.

1223
00:57:37,832 --> 00:57:40,352
Some people don't, some people really
genuinely don't care and those people

1224
00:57:40,562 --> 00:57:41,642
shouldn't be working for you anyway.

1225
00:57:41,642 --> 00:57:45,212
But talking, you know, all things being
equal, like all employees want to feel

1226
00:57:45,212 --> 00:57:50,552
valid and valued, and they want to feel
like the work that they're putting in is

1227
00:57:51,542 --> 00:57:53,372
having an effect on the bigger picture.

1228
00:57:53,372 --> 00:57:53,462
Mm-hmm.

1229
00:57:54,182 --> 00:57:58,592
and I, I agree, like the fastest way to
ruin employee morale and drive off, off

1230
00:57:58,622 --> 00:58:02,612
really good employees is to not make
them feel valid, not hear them, and not

1231
00:58:02,612 --> 00:58:07,952
give them a platform or a forum to voice
their ideas and concerns and opinions.

1232
00:58:07,982 --> 00:58:08,142
Mm.

1233
00:58:08,577 --> 00:58:12,797
And, and, and not genuinely
listening to them and, and you know,

1234
00:58:12,797 --> 00:58:14,747
running with, with what you hear.

1235
00:58:14,747 --> 00:58:19,997
I mean, that's, I think that alone is what
separates a good boss from a bad boss.

1236
00:58:19,997 --> 00:58:23,267
I mean, if, if there was one thing
I had to say that that really is

1237
00:58:23,267 --> 00:58:27,517
the differentiator, it's, it's
a boss's ability to treat their

1238
00:58:27,617 --> 00:58:28,957
employees like human beings.

1239
00:58:28,957 --> 00:58:29,157
Mm-hmm.

1240
00:58:29,777 --> 00:58:30,227
and not

1241
00:58:30,707 --> 00:58:31,457
Jeff Sherman: cog in a wheel.

1242
00:58:31,697 --> 00:58:35,507
Well and you know, it, it, it from a
weird perspective too, and this is, you

1243
00:58:35,507 --> 00:58:42,219
know, like we've talked so much about
retention of employees, one of the things

1244
00:58:42,224 --> 00:58:48,939
that you can do that will actually tender
the ones that you wanna keep is holding

1245
00:58:48,939 --> 00:58:52,479
on too hard to the ones that shouldn't
be there or don't wanna be there.

1246
00:58:53,079 --> 00:58:58,809
That's the other thing, you know,
you have to be, and I struggled this

1247
00:58:59,019 --> 00:59:00,819
with this just as a manager, cuz.

1248
00:59:01,389 --> 00:59:04,929
Again, it's, you know, the whole
onboarding and hiring and recruiting

1249
00:59:04,929 --> 00:59:11,949
process can be so cumbersome and so time
consuming and so, so energy draining

1250
00:59:12,249 --> 00:59:16,359
that you really don't wanna go through
it unless you absolutely have to.

1251
00:59:16,359 --> 00:59:22,989
So you, you, you will find it's easy
to, to kinda like grab onto that

1252
00:59:22,994 --> 00:59:26,709
employee and try to hold onto them
and squeeze onto them for dear life.

1253
00:59:26,709 --> 00:59:29,979
Like, Don't leave me, you know, you
know, I need, I need you to succeed.

1254
00:59:30,309 --> 00:59:36,549
You know, But, but you know, you have to,
you have to be willing to, to, to, again,

1255
00:59:36,579 --> 00:59:38,649
you have to be willing to fail, right?

1256
00:59:38,649 --> 00:59:41,919
You have to be willing to let them
fail, and you're gonna have people

1257
00:59:41,919 --> 00:59:45,729
that you bring in that leave,
you know, for whatever reason.

1258
00:59:45,729 --> 00:59:47,349
You have to be okay with that.

1259
00:59:48,264 --> 00:59:52,434
You have and, and, and you have
to let the rest of your staff

1260
00:59:52,434 --> 00:59:55,554
know that you're okay with that.

1261
00:59:55,854 --> 00:59:56,154
Yep.

1262
00:59:56,484 --> 01:00:00,624
So that it, it's a, it's a, it's a
living, breathing organism rather

1263
01:00:00,629 --> 01:00:03,564
than kind of this stagnant pond
that you're, that that, that you

1264
01:00:03,564 --> 01:00:05,034
could potentially create, you know?

1265
01:00:06,234 --> 01:00:07,014
Michael Riley: Yeah, totally.

1266
01:00:07,614 --> 01:00:08,274
Say that again.

1267
01:00:08,274 --> 01:00:09,354
You have to let them fail.

1268
01:00:09,384 --> 01:00:09,594
Yeah.

1269
01:00:10,104 --> 01:00:11,154
Everybody repeated with

1270
01:00:11,154 --> 01:00:11,334
Jeff Sherman: me.

1271
01:00:11,334 --> 01:00:11,964
You have to.

1272
01:00:12,014 --> 01:00:12,374
Yeah.

1273
01:00:12,374 --> 01:00:14,214
You have to let them,
you have to let them fail

1274
01:00:14,634 --> 01:00:15,054
Bryant Gillespie: now.

1275
01:00:15,074 --> 01:00:17,064
Now we're like getting into like a seance.

1276
01:00:17,064 --> 01:00:18,174
Yeah, I like it.

1277
01:00:18,644 --> 01:00:19,524
Well, there's

1278
01:00:19,524 --> 01:00:22,200
Michael Riley: a, there's an
advertising agency here in, in

1279
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:23,550
Portland called Wyden Kennedy.

1280
01:00:23,555 --> 01:00:25,830
They're, they're very famous ad agency.

1281
01:00:25,830 --> 01:00:26,850
I don't know if you guys
have heard of them or not.

1282
01:00:26,850 --> 01:00:30,450
They, they're responsible for like all of
Nike's advertising, and they're the ones

1283
01:00:30,455 --> 01:00:32,610
that came up with the gist slogan in.

1284
01:00:33,705 --> 01:00:36,525
They have a really amazing office
here in Portland and they have

1285
01:00:36,525 --> 01:00:40,005
this giant wall on it where they
did this kind of art installation.

1286
01:00:40,005 --> 01:00:44,145
There's like 150,000 like clear
thumbtacks or push pins on the wall.

1287
01:00:44,445 --> 01:00:47,175
And they made this thing that
spells out the words fail harder.

1288
01:00:47,261 --> 01:00:49,961
and it, it's a really,
Sorry, I just got distract.

1289
01:00:49,961 --> 01:00:50,561
Can we hold on a second?

1290
01:00:51,731 --> 01:00:52,341
Jeff Sherman: Mm-hmm.

1291
01:00:55,406 --> 01:00:55,706
Bryant Gillespie: So

1292
01:00:56,396 --> 01:00:57,246
Jeff Sherman: it's the sign husband

1293
01:00:58,896 --> 01:01:00,086
. 
Bryant Gillespie: Oh, sign husband.

1294
01:01:00,176 --> 01:01:00,526
Oh,

1295
01:01:00,716 --> 01:01:04,286
Peter Kourounis: he makes
an appearance . That's

1296
01:01:04,286 --> 01:01:04,736
Jeff Sherman: great.

1297
01:01:05,756 --> 01:01:06,446
That's fantastic.

1298
01:01:06,956 --> 01:01:07,436
My,

1299
01:01:08,546 --> 01:01:10,806
Michael Riley: my, my
cat shit on the chair.

1300
01:01:11,126 --> 01:01:12,566
That's why I had to get up
and take her outta here.

1301
01:01:12,571 --> 01:01:14,396
I'm like, I'm sitting here
talking and I'm like smelling

1302
01:01:14,396 --> 01:01:15,956
like, what is that awful smell?

1303
01:01:16,406 --> 01:01:21,116
And then she took a, the chair, it's
like a common occurrence in my life.

1304
01:01:21,121 --> 01:01:21,836
So I was texting.

1305
01:01:21,956 --> 01:01:22,046
It's

1306
01:01:22,046 --> 01:01:22,196
not

1307
01:01:22,201 --> 01:01:25,196
Bryant Gillespie: a podcast episode until
one of Mike's cat shit's on the chair.

1308
01:01:26,726 --> 01:01:28,046
. 
Michael Riley: How many
times has that happened now?

1309
01:01:28,046 --> 01:01:29,445
At least three, I think.

1310
01:01:29,469 --> 01:01:29,919
yeah.

1311
01:01:30,069 --> 01:01:33,069
It used to happen all the time when I
was doing like shot box meetings too,

1312
01:01:33,069 --> 01:01:36,009
and like she has a habit of walking
across my desk and then she's, she's

1313
01:01:36,009 --> 01:01:37,709
Jeff Sherman: dropped
a few right on computer

1314
01:01:41,619 --> 01:01:44,139
Michael Riley: She's an elderly
cat with irritable bowel syndrome.

1315
01:01:44,139 --> 01:01:45,129
It's, she keeps me.

1316
01:01:45,489 --> 01:01:45,519
Okay.

1317
01:01:45,552 --> 01:01:46,239
and sorry about that.

1318
01:01:46,239 --> 01:01:49,359
Anyway, there's a ad agency here
in, in Portland and they have this

1319
01:01:49,359 --> 01:01:50,949
big wall that says, Fail harder.

1320
01:01:51,129 --> 01:01:54,729
And it's kind of like their, their
mantra, like they're, they encourage

1321
01:01:54,729 --> 01:01:58,869
everybody to take as many risks as
they can, you know, creatively with

1322
01:01:58,869 --> 01:02:03,729
clients, really push the envelope
and, and, and actually hope you fail.

1323
01:02:03,729 --> 01:02:07,029
I mean, that's really part of their
culture is, is building failure into

1324
01:02:07,029 --> 01:02:11,109
it because so many great things come
outta learning from, from, from failure.

1325
01:02:11,109 --> 01:02:11,319
Mm-hmm.

1326
01:02:11,739 --> 01:02:15,189
and, and it, I, I see so many
business owners, especially in this.

1327
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,605
you know, that, that tries so
hard to discourage failure.

1328
01:02:18,605 --> 01:02:23,225
And they see, they see somebody making a
mistake as, as a, I think, as a reflection

1329
01:02:23,375 --> 01:02:28,805
on them as a business owner, but all
of us are prone to making mistakes.

1330
01:02:28,805 --> 01:02:31,295
It's just part of being a human
being is you're gonna screw up stuff.

1331
01:02:31,300 --> 01:02:32,165
You're not gonna do everything.

1332
01:02:32,165 --> 01:02:32,585
Right.

1333
01:02:32,585 --> 01:02:35,855
And, and none of us would be where
we were if we hadn't learned from our

1334
01:02:35,855 --> 01:02:37,175
mistakes that we made in the past.

1335
01:02:37,265 --> 01:02:37,355
Mm-hmm.

1336
01:02:37,805 --> 01:02:40,835
. But as a business owner, for some reason,
it seems like there's just like this

1337
01:02:40,835 --> 01:02:48,935
innate, like just disregard for  for that
like universal truism that I'm allowed

1338
01:02:48,935 --> 01:02:51,365
to fail, but because I'm paying you.

1339
01:02:52,055 --> 01:02:53,945
You better damn sure not fail on my time.

1340
01:02:53,945 --> 01:02:54,275
Right?

1341
01:02:54,995 --> 01:02:57,935
And that's such a, that's
such a huge mistake that

1342
01:02:57,935 --> 01:02:59,936
business owners make, you know?

1343
01:03:00,275 --> 01:03:03,335
Whereas you should be encouraging them,
like I said, to push the boundaries

1344
01:03:03,340 --> 01:03:05,375
and step outside of their comfort zone.

1345
01:03:05,380 --> 01:03:07,895
And they're probably gonna fall flat
on their face the first couple times.

1346
01:03:07,900 --> 01:03:10,775
And you have to expect that and encourage
it, because that's how these people

1347
01:03:10,775 --> 01:03:15,635
grow and expand and become better
at what they're trying to, to do.

1348
01:03:16,325 --> 01:03:21,605
And, and without an environment that
actively encourages failure to a point,

1349
01:03:22,055 --> 01:03:23,975
I, people can only grow to a point.

1350
01:03:24,185 --> 01:03:26,345
I mean, obviously there's a point where
like, if you're just constantly doing

1351
01:03:26,345 --> 01:03:29,295
the same thing over and over again and
messing it up every time, like that's,

1352
01:03:29,525 --> 01:03:32,915
that's different than the failure I think
that we're talking about here, right?

1353
01:03:33,015 --> 01:03:36,155
We're, if somebody just isn't good
at their job and they're just not

1354
01:03:36,155 --> 01:03:38,375
paying attention and making stupid
mistakes, that's a totally different

1355
01:03:38,380 --> 01:03:39,365
thing, and that person should go.

1356
01:03:40,025 --> 01:03:42,665
But if they've had the opportunity,
I mean, given the opportunity to,

1357
01:03:43,385 --> 01:03:45,275
to try and fail and try again.

1358
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,250
And figure it out and get a little better
each time and improve then that, that

1359
01:03:49,250 --> 01:03:52,340
type of failure is good and it's positive
and it's, it's it's moving forward.

1360
01:03:52,340 --> 01:03:52,430
Yeah.

1361
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:53,150
Jeff Sherman: Yeah.

1362
01:03:53,150 --> 01:03:58,261
The, the, the failure thing requires,
we were talking about with, with the

1363
01:03:58,266 --> 01:04:01,820
training thing, just like that, with,
with the, with the failure thing.

1364
01:04:03,020 --> 01:04:08,450
It requires the right kind of
response and follow up to a failure.

1365
01:04:09,230 --> 01:04:14,270
You know, some sort of, some sort of
questioning and not, not an interrogation,

1366
01:04:14,270 --> 01:04:19,550
you know, why did you do this type thing,
but you know what, what, what happened?

1367
01:04:19,610 --> 01:04:19,940
Okay.

1368
01:04:19,940 --> 01:04:21,170
What do you know?

1369
01:04:21,170 --> 01:04:22,580
Why do you think that happened?

1370
01:04:22,610 --> 01:04:24,830
Why do you think that
resulted the way it did?

1371
01:04:25,430 --> 01:04:27,560
Walk them through that mental process.

1372
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:32,750
You talked about, Mike, of, let's go
back through the chain here, figure out

1373
01:04:32,750 --> 01:04:35,960
reverse engineer this and think about
how we could have done it differently

1374
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:39,710
and what, what might have been the better
result, you know, as a result of doing

1375
01:04:39,715 --> 01:04:42,920
that, that that's, that's key to it too.

1376
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:44,480
You know, It can't just be.

1377
01:04:45,710 --> 01:04:47,840
Unbridled failure all over the place.

1378
01:04:49,820 --> 01:04:53,660
, there, there has to be, there has
to be some feedback loop in there.

1379
01:04:53,660 --> 01:04:53,960
Right.

1380
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:58,190
And it has to be, it has to be done in
the right tone and the right attitude

1381
01:04:58,190 --> 01:04:59,619
and the right, and the right approach.

1382
01:05:01,419 --> 01:05:01,599
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

1383
01:05:01,629 --> 01:05:01,839
Right.

1384
01:05:02,109 --> 01:05:05,229
So I've got, I've got another question
for you, Jeff, and then I, you know,

1385
01:05:05,349 --> 01:05:08,619
maybe this will kind of bring us full
circle and try to wrap this up, I guess.

1386
01:05:08,619 --> 01:05:08,709
Sure.

1387
01:05:08,813 --> 01:05:12,683
what was like the, what was the
final straw or what, what was the

1388
01:05:12,683 --> 01:05:18,053
series of events that led you to
the end of the, your relationship?

1389
01:05:18,443 --> 01:05:22,793
And just to, to preface that,
like, the reason I asked why

1390
01:05:22,793 --> 01:05:24,373
you stuck around so long mm-hmm.

1391
01:05:24,833 --> 01:05:29,933
was, I, I've noticed there's, of our
listeners, there's a lot of smaller shops.

1392
01:05:29,933 --> 01:05:33,923
Maybe it's one owner, maybe it's
a, an owner and a couple employees,

1393
01:05:33,928 --> 01:05:38,783
where at some point in time the owner
was like, Hey, I'm gonna grow this

1394
01:05:38,783 --> 01:05:40,433
business and I'm gonna bring somebody.

1395
01:05:41,018 --> 01:05:42,668
Like you into the fold.

1396
01:05:42,968 --> 01:05:43,058
Mm-hmm.

1397
01:05:43,588 --> 01:05:47,978
and I, I say this because I, I
respect your knowledge base, your

1398
01:05:47,978 --> 01:05:50,472
experience, you know, of all the
conversations we've had mm-hmm.

1399
01:05:50,608 --> 01:05:53,848
among these guys, Pete and Mike,
you're probably one of the other

1400
01:05:53,853 --> 01:05:56,848
most knowledgeable guys in this
industry that I've spoken to.

1401
01:05:56,848 --> 01:05:56,938
Mm-hmm.

1402
01:05:57,398 --> 01:06:01,873
, so, You've stayed with that
company for 19 years, obviously

1403
01:06:01,993 --> 01:06:03,433
something worked there for a while.

1404
01:06:03,493 --> 01:06:03,583
Mm-hmm.

1405
01:06:04,213 --> 01:06:07,963
. But these other guys that I see
that, hey, I taught this guy

1406
01:06:07,968 --> 01:06:09,553
everything I know about the business.

1407
01:06:09,553 --> 01:06:10,753
And then what did he do?

1408
01:06:11,143 --> 01:06:14,653
He turned around and left and started
his own shop across the street.

1409
01:06:14,658 --> 01:06:14,853
Mm-hmm.

1410
01:06:15,253 --> 01:06:20,413
. And now like that either that trust is
gone or he is scared to try again, but

1411
01:06:20,863 --> 01:06:22,423
the business is running him over still.

1412
01:06:22,453 --> 01:06:22,543
Mm-hmm.

1413
01:06:23,113 --> 01:06:25,573
, you know, five years later,
10 years later from that.

1414
01:06:25,903 --> 01:06:31,423
So what was the, You're that guy, that
promising number two guy that mm-hmm.

1415
01:06:32,083 --> 01:06:34,273
stepped in, helped grow the business.

1416
01:06:34,423 --> 01:06:34,513
Mm-hmm.

1417
01:06:35,203 --> 01:06:36,193
doing awesome things.

1418
01:06:36,198 --> 01:06:36,413
Mm-hmm.

1419
01:06:37,423 --> 01:06:38,893
. So what caused you to leave?

1420
01:06:39,163 --> 01:06:39,644
Jeff Sherman: Yeah.

1421
01:06:39,644 --> 01:06:42,686
well I, I want to touch on one thing
you said there for a second and Cause

1422
01:06:42,686 --> 01:06:45,176
it's, it's applicable to my scenario.

1423
01:06:45,656 --> 01:06:47,126
Not everybody.

1424
01:06:47,666 --> 01:06:49,106
Wants to be a business owner.

1425
01:06:49,736 --> 01:06:51,746
Not everybody should be a business owner.

1426
01:06:51,896 --> 01:06:52,316
Okay.

1427
01:06:52,393 --> 01:06:58,653
I, I think we can all agree on that,
, and, and early in my conversations

1428
01:06:58,653 --> 01:07:01,713
in my development, you talked about
me being the number two and early in

1429
01:07:01,713 --> 01:07:06,633
my conversations with the owner of
the company I worked for, there was

1430
01:07:06,633 --> 01:07:12,243
discussion, very serious discussion about
transitional plans, about eventually

1431
01:07:12,243 --> 01:07:16,083
me being the per, you know, taking the
business over from him, you know, when

1432
01:07:16,083 --> 01:07:20,163
it came time for him to retire and ways
that we could have worked that out,

1433
01:07:20,163 --> 01:07:23,593
you know, mechanically from a financial
perspective, et cetera, et cetera.

1434
01:07:23,593 --> 01:07:27,860
and I had to do some
serious self-evaluation.

1435
01:07:28,445 --> 01:07:31,115
As to whether or not I wanted
to be a business owner.

1436
01:07:31,205 --> 01:07:34,145
And the bottom line is, I
don't, you, you, you know, the,

1437
01:07:34,395 --> 01:07:37,685
it, it takes a special breed.

1438
01:07:37,685 --> 01:07:43,055
It takes a, I think first and foremost
for me, the thing that I know that I don't

1439
01:07:43,060 --> 01:07:45,656
have is the comfort with, personal risk.

1440
01:07:46,826 --> 01:07:47,756
I'm not a gambler.

1441
01:07:47,846 --> 01:07:49,196
I hate Las Vegas.

1442
01:07:49,256 --> 01:07:53,276
I don't like the idea of
potentially losing money.

1443
01:07:53,281 --> 01:07:57,116
I'm not comfortable with it . So
I shouldn't own a business.

1444
01:07:57,116 --> 01:07:59,006
Cause there is a possibility for that.

1445
01:07:59,011 --> 01:07:59,846
Very much so.

1446
01:07:59,846 --> 01:08:03,386
There and, and, you know, I,
it, it's just, that was the,

1447
01:08:03,386 --> 01:08:04,406
that was the thing for me.

1448
01:08:04,406 --> 01:08:11,756
So it, it was never, for me, it was
never a, a, a factor of getting, you

1449
01:08:11,761 --> 01:08:15,746
know, building myself up, building
my skill set to a point where I

1450
01:08:15,746 --> 01:08:18,806
felt like I could take what I'd
learned and go start my own thing.

1451
01:08:18,806 --> 01:08:21,416
That was never, that was
never the, the issue there.

1452
01:08:21,490 --> 01:08:24,340
for me, ultimately it became a point of.

1453
01:08:25,615 --> 01:08:31,615
at a certain point, I, my
voice too stopped being heard.

1454
01:08:33,145 --> 01:08:40,015
We got to certain points where I was
trying to work with the owner to make core

1455
01:08:40,015 --> 01:08:48,175
changes on certain front end processes
in how the business was being run.

1456
01:08:48,175 --> 01:08:53,245
Because all, all of, all of the
downstream, at a certain point, all of

1457
01:08:53,245 --> 01:08:57,205
the improvements that we were trying to
make on the design team and the production

1458
01:08:57,205 --> 01:09:00,835
team and the installation team, and
all of the processes, you know, on the

1459
01:09:00,835 --> 01:09:09,895
operational side of the business, we hit a
wall in improving those processes because

1460
01:09:09,895 --> 01:09:14,725
of how we were taking orders and how we
were processing quotes and how we were

1461
01:09:14,785 --> 01:09:17,185
bringing things into the, into the shop.

1462
01:09:19,405 --> 01:09:24,295
And at a certain point, I started
focusing on trying to implement

1463
01:09:24,295 --> 01:09:31,765
change there and what was met
with, I'm gonna say inability.

1464
01:09:32,005 --> 01:09:37,705
It's not, maybe not knowing,
unwillingness, but at least an

1465
01:09:37,705 --> 01:09:41,545
inability to make that change and to
allow me to influence change there.

1466
01:09:41,995 --> 01:09:46,435
And so at that point,
I stopped being valued.

1467
01:09:46,435 --> 01:09:53,515
I stopped contributing and developing
and growing, and I started to stagnate.

1468
01:09:55,225 --> 01:10:00,415
And then I got C and ended up in
the hospital and had two weeks

1469
01:10:01,195 --> 01:10:04,825
in the hospital to by myself
to do nothing but self reflect.

1470
01:10:05,095 --> 01:10:09,115
And then another three months
on my couch on oxygen to.

1471
01:10:09,685 --> 01:10:15,895
Be separated from the shop environment and
think about how, you know, my work life

1472
01:10:15,895 --> 01:10:17,785
was going and how things were going there.

1473
01:10:19,045 --> 01:10:26,285
And, very quickly realized I was unhappy
and, and, and need, needed to find some,

1474
01:10:26,285 --> 01:10:28,115
some other avenue, some other place.

1475
01:10:28,182 --> 01:10:31,809
you know, ultimately I will say,
the last day was not my choice.

1476
01:10:32,739 --> 01:10:36,969
The business, you know, needs
changed and, and, and I was let go.

1477
01:10:36,969 --> 01:10:37,909
I didn't leave myself.

1478
01:10:37,934 --> 01:10:38,864
which was surprising.

1479
01:10:38,881 --> 01:10:42,841
but, you know, I, I'd been, look,
I've been looking for, for months,

1480
01:10:42,961 --> 01:10:46,441
so it, it, it was inevitable, I
think is really at that point.

1481
01:10:46,441 --> 01:10:49,921
But yeah, to answer your question,
it was about, it was about finally

1482
01:10:49,921 --> 01:10:53,281
getting to a point where even
after that amount of time, I was

1483
01:10:53,281 --> 01:10:55,351
no longer heard, I was no longer.

1484
01:10:55,591 --> 01:10:59,641
And because I was no longer heard, I
was no longer valued regardless of how

1485
01:10:59,641 --> 01:11:02,641
many times I was disconnected, how,
how many, regardless of how many times

1486
01:11:02,646 --> 01:11:04,651
I was told, Oh, you're so important.

1487
01:11:04,651 --> 01:11:07,381
And, you know, you know,
I value what you tell me.

1488
01:11:07,891 --> 01:11:09,661
If your actions don't back that up.

1489
01:11:09,661 --> 01:11:12,601
If you're not listening to the things
that I'm telling you and, and the things

1490
01:11:12,601 --> 01:11:16,621
that I know need to happen, you know,
in my heart of hearts, I know we need

1491
01:11:16,621 --> 01:11:18,241
to do this, but we're not doing it.

1492
01:11:19,681 --> 01:11:20,971
What value am I bringing?

1493
01:11:21,061 --> 01:11:21,691
Why am I here?

1494
01:11:23,006 --> 01:11:23,426
You

1495
01:11:23,426 --> 01:11:23,806
Bryant Gillespie: know, Boom.

1496
01:11:23,866 --> 01:11:28,426
So that's, that's Jeff for everybody
listening, that's Jeff dropping

1497
01:11:28,426 --> 01:11:29,926
the truth on you right now.

1498
01:11:30,346 --> 01:11:36,136
, if you're a business owner and you've
got team members that are, are valuable

1499
01:11:36,136 --> 01:11:41,836
to your organization and you don't
let them be heard or feel heard, or

1500
01:11:41,836 --> 01:11:44,086
feel valued, they're gonna leave you.

1501
01:11:44,206 --> 01:11:44,296
Mm-hmm.

1502
01:11:44,596 --> 01:11:48,736
they're gonna check out, at the very
least, they're gonna check out of work,

1503
01:11:48,766 --> 01:11:50,536
and they're gonna go through the motions.

1504
01:11:51,106 --> 01:11:53,866
And if you're not paying attention,
you're not gonna notice it.

1505
01:11:54,286 --> 01:11:56,866
And then, then they're gonna leave.

1506
01:11:56,866 --> 01:11:57,226
Mm-hmm.

1507
01:11:57,311 --> 01:12:01,606
, and you're gonna be in that six month
cycle that we just talked about all

1508
01:12:01,606 --> 01:12:05,776
over again, or longer, especially
if you're trying to replace an ops

1509
01:12:05,776 --> 01:12:11,176
manager or somebody that has a ton of
experience on how your entire operation

1510
01:12:11,176 --> 01:12:11,566
Michael Riley: runs.

1511
01:12:13,471 --> 01:12:14,491
Speaking from experience.

1512
01:12:14,491 --> 01:12:14,761
Bryant

1513
01:12:15,691 --> 01:12:16,471
? 
Jeff Sherman: No, not at all.

1514
01:12:16,831 --> 01:12:17,101
None.

1515
01:12:17,491 --> 01:12:17,911
Not at all.

1516
01:12:20,731 --> 01:12:21,121
Wink,

1517
01:12:21,181 --> 01:12:21,451
Bryant Gillespie: wink.

1518
01:12:21,451 --> 01:12:21,721
So

1519
01:12:24,001 --> 01:12:25,201
Michael Riley: doesn't
sound at all like you've

1520
01:12:26,701 --> 01:12:29,791
Bryant Gillespie: said that here,
I've, I've caught you throwing

1521
01:12:29,796 --> 01:12:31,111
some shade from time to time.

1522
01:12:31,111 --> 01:12:31,411
So

1523
01:12:33,961 --> 01:12:37,081
, 
Michael Riley: So, so Jeff, I, we started
this conversation off and you said that

1524
01:12:37,081 --> 01:12:40,411
you're in a, a position for the first time
in a long time, where you can really sit

1525
01:12:40,411 --> 01:12:45,631
back and think about where you want your
career to go in the future, and you have a

1526
01:12:45,631 --> 01:12:47,431
little bit more control and say over that.

1527
01:12:47,436 --> 01:12:50,146
So, What do you see coming
down the line for you?

1528
01:12:50,146 --> 01:12:54,196
What, what do you, what do you
want to do for the rest of your

1529
01:12:54,196 --> 01:12:55,246
career in the sign industry?

1530
01:12:55,456 --> 01:12:59,478
Jeff Sherman: You know, I, I,
I'm looking at things where I

1531
01:12:59,478 --> 01:13:01,038
can be a little more creative.

1532
01:13:01,135 --> 01:13:05,185
there's so much opportunity
and possibility within

1533
01:13:05,185 --> 01:13:06,445
the sign industry itself.

1534
01:13:07,105 --> 01:13:12,565
I've been in a box of architectural
signage for so long and

1535
01:13:12,565 --> 01:13:17,735
specifically, Signage for like high
rise office and, and hospitals.

1536
01:13:18,685 --> 01:13:21,535
That tends to be pretty cook.

1537
01:13:21,535 --> 01:13:23,725
You know, that's a small box to be in.

1538
01:13:23,725 --> 01:13:28,435
You know, there's not a lot of creativity
involved in that kind of stuff.

1539
01:13:28,440 --> 01:13:32,905
Generally speaking, you can stretch out a
little bit here and there, but, you know,

1540
01:13:32,935 --> 01:13:37,825
ADA code and fire regulations and all that
kinda stuff, really, you know, they, they

1541
01:13:37,825 --> 01:13:39,865
really bring those walls in real tight.

1542
01:13:40,375 --> 01:13:45,198
So, I'm, I'm looking at things
with, with, well, number one, with

1543
01:13:45,203 --> 01:13:48,588
where I'm at right now, my options
are pretty, I, I'm looking bigger

1544
01:13:48,588 --> 01:13:52,973
organizations, you know, places where,
maybe they've got, processes in place.

1545
01:13:52,973 --> 01:13:56,183
They darn well better have
processes in place, but places

1546
01:13:56,183 --> 01:13:58,553
where I can come in and, and, and.

1547
01:13:59,813 --> 01:14:01,343
Bring a voice that's gonna be heard.

1548
01:14:01,943 --> 01:14:02,693
That's the biggest thing.

1549
01:14:02,693 --> 01:14:04,073
And I don't even care where it is.

1550
01:14:04,073 --> 01:14:06,653
I mean, I'm, I'm looking, I'm
looking into design stuff.

1551
01:14:06,653 --> 01:14:08,333
I'm looking into project management stuff.

1552
01:14:08,753 --> 01:14:10,493
I'm looking into operation stuff.

1553
01:14:10,493 --> 01:14:13,373
I'm looking into department manager
stuff, general manager stuff.

1554
01:14:13,613 --> 01:14:15,953
Heck, I've even talked to a
couple people about doing sales.

1555
01:14:16,074 --> 01:14:18,654
it's that, you know, it's that
chief cook and bottle washer thing.

1556
01:14:18,654 --> 01:14:21,804
And me having been, you know, for
a small shop for so long and having

1557
01:14:21,804 --> 01:14:28,224
touched every single aspect of that
business, you know, my biggest thing

1558
01:14:28,224 --> 01:14:30,804
again is where can I contribute?

1559
01:14:30,984 --> 01:14:32,694
Can, can my voice be heard?

1560
01:14:32,814 --> 01:14:34,704
You know, and, and where can it be heard?

1561
01:14:34,704 --> 01:14:36,084
That's, that's my thing.

1562
01:14:36,444 --> 01:14:39,024
You know, No, no amount of
money is gonna offset that.

1563
01:14:39,519 --> 01:14:41,619
Well, maybe a certain amount,
but we won't get into that

1564
01:14:44,639 --> 01:14:46,989
you know, I've gotta make a
living, let's put it that way.

1565
01:14:46,989 --> 01:14:48,309
I do live in California.

1566
01:14:48,309 --> 01:14:49,844
So, there's that factor.

1567
01:14:49,844 --> 01:14:53,594
But yeah, it, it really is, It's,
for me, it's about where can,

1568
01:14:53,774 --> 01:14:54,854
where can my voice be heard?

1569
01:14:54,859 --> 01:14:56,474
Where, where can I bring value?

1570
01:14:56,654 --> 01:15:01,484
And that's what all of my conversations
to this point have been centered around.

1571
01:15:01,844 --> 01:15:05,624
You know, you look at my resume,
it's like, it's a hodgepodge.

1572
01:15:06,134 --> 01:15:08,804
It's all one, it's, it's
all one company, really.

1573
01:15:09,284 --> 01:15:12,404
But all of the things that I've
done within that company, it's,

1574
01:15:13,184 --> 01:15:14,564
you, you name it, I've done it.

1575
01:15:14,564 --> 01:15:20,474
So, you know, people ask me when I, when
I, when I approach these sign shops,

1576
01:15:20,474 --> 01:15:22,454
is, you know, what do you wanna do?

1577
01:15:23,174 --> 01:15:27,584
It's like, Hey, tell me where your need
is, but tell me, tell me what that biggest

1578
01:15:27,584 --> 01:15:30,104
hole is and let's see if I can fit it.

1579
01:15:30,164 --> 01:15:31,064
Let's see if I can fill it.

1580
01:15:32,204 --> 01:15:34,214
It's an interesting spot to be, honestly.

1581
01:15:36,164 --> 01:15:39,374
Michael Riley: It's a difficult spot to be
too, cause it's like, Employers don't know

1582
01:15:39,379 --> 01:15:43,494
what to do with that . Well, like, it,

1583
01:15:43,814 --> 01:15:46,904
Jeff Sherman: it requires, it's, it's
a different kind of conversation.

1584
01:15:46,934 --> 01:15:51,802
It's, it's a, it's a much deeper
conversation than the, than, than the, I'm

1585
01:15:51,802 --> 01:15:56,812
gonna post an ad on whatever, you know,
on, on Glassdoor and, and have somebody

1586
01:15:56,812 --> 01:16:00,202
send me their resume and, and sit, sit
down and do an interview with them.

1587
01:16:00,202 --> 01:16:02,392
It's a very much different conversation.

1588
01:16:02,632 --> 01:16:06,502
I've, I've literally been cold
calling myself to, to the different

1589
01:16:06,507 --> 01:16:08,002
sign companies around the area.

1590
01:16:08,662 --> 01:16:11,272
You know, reaching, reaching out,
you know, doing all, looking at

1591
01:16:11,277 --> 01:16:14,572
all the websites and reaching out
and, you know, saying, Hey, I,

1592
01:16:14,572 --> 01:16:20,242
I've been in this business, you
know, 20 plus years, let's talk.

1593
01:16:20,872 --> 01:16:25,042
And having, you know, our two
hour, three hour conversations

1594
01:16:25,042 --> 01:16:28,042
with business owners around.

1595
01:16:28,702 --> 01:16:29,692
You know, what do you do?

1596
01:16:30,322 --> 01:16:34,522
Where, where are your, where are
your, where are your challenges?

1597
01:16:34,612 --> 01:16:37,612
And can I bring something to
help you with those challenges?

1598
01:16:39,862 --> 01:16:40,102
Michael Riley: Boom.

1599
01:16:40,642 --> 01:16:40,972
Awesome.

1600
01:16:41,722 --> 01:16:45,262
I wish you would move someplace cheaper
like Iowa, because I'd, I'd love to have

1601
01:16:45,267 --> 01:16:49,062
you as part of my team, but I can't even
come close to Ing . Yeah, Sorry man.

1602
01:16:49,872 --> 01:16:51,262
If you ever move to
the Midwest, lemme know

1603
01:16:54,202 --> 01:16:54,712
Bryant Gillespie: Jeff.

1604
01:16:55,282 --> 01:16:56,302
Always a pleasure, man.

1605
01:16:56,362 --> 01:16:58,202
I always enjoy catching up.

1606
01:16:58,202 --> 01:17:02,183
for any sign company that's out there that
wants to talk to Jeff for two and a half,

1607
01:17:02,183 --> 01:17:08,453
three hours, , if you're looking for an
impact guy, you've got a hold to fill.

1608
01:17:10,168 --> 01:17:13,398
Jeff Sherman: it, it, it
hit, hit up Jeff, Will it?

1609
01:17:13,558 --> 01:17:13,638
? Yeah.

1610
01:17:13,638 --> 01:17:14,694
Hey, Praising yeah.

1611
01:17:14,694 --> 01:17:18,594
I don't, I don't, I don't how that
with recruitment tool, but, Okay.

1612
01:17:18,599 --> 01:17:19,104
Right on.

1613
01:17:19,104 --> 01:17:19,284
Yeah.

1614
01:17:19,284 --> 01:17:20,874
You, I appreciate Yeah.

1615
01:17:23,724 --> 01:17:24,214
. Yeah.

1616
01:17:24,954 --> 01:17:25,104
Our

1617
01:17:25,104 --> 01:17:26,574
Michael Riley: next
cease and desist letter.

1618
01:17:27,714 --> 01:17:28,194
Bryant Gillespie: Another one.

1619
01:17:28,284 --> 01:17:29,244
Another one coming.

1620
01:17:29,784 --> 01:17:30,564
It never fails.

1621
01:17:31,224 --> 01:17:31,914
All right, guys.

1622
01:17:31,944 --> 01:17:32,784
let's wrap this one up.

1623
01:17:32,784 --> 01:17:33,024
Right.

1624
01:17:33,204 --> 01:17:34,644
Rapid fire takeaways.

1625
01:17:35,244 --> 01:17:35,724
Peter,

1626
01:17:38,694 --> 01:17:42,294
Peter Kourounis: you gotta, you
gotta stop talking on an interview.

1627
01:17:42,594 --> 01:17:44,334
You gotta listen more than you talk.

1628
01:17:45,144 --> 01:17:47,064
That's gonna be the biggest takeaway.

1629
01:17:48,414 --> 01:17:51,744
It's biggest takeaway for this
episode, specifically for those

1630
01:17:51,744 --> 01:17:56,094
that are asking about how do we,
how could I hire the right people

1631
01:17:56,484 --> 01:17:57,654
in order to hire the right people?

1632
01:17:57,654 --> 01:18:00,684
You need to find the right people
in order to find the right people.

1633
01:18:00,884 --> 01:18:02,304
You need to let them talk.

1634
01:18:02,544 --> 01:18:06,174
You need to let them advertise themselves.

1635
01:18:06,174 --> 01:18:09,234
Sell themselves, not sell yourself.

1636
01:18:11,394 --> 01:18:11,934
Mike

1637
01:18:14,364 --> 01:18:14,904
Bryant Gillespie: the sign.

1638
01:18:14,904 --> 01:18:15,294
Timmy.

1639
01:18:15,299 --> 01:18:15,774
Changa.

1640
01:18:18,444 --> 01:18:20,964
. No, I just like, it's
got a ring to it, man.

1641
01:18:22,194 --> 01:18:22,494
Michael Riley: Sign.

1642
01:18:23,244 --> 01:18:23,634
Does it?

1643
01:18:24,624 --> 01:18:25,494
Can you hear yourself?

1644
01:18:26,124 --> 01:18:30,092
I think that, the biggest takeaway for
me is something that, that, that Jeff

1645
01:18:30,092 --> 01:18:34,442
just kind of got done seeing, and that,
that is, this is a guy that's got as

1646
01:18:34,442 --> 01:18:37,662
much experience in this industry, is
anybody you're ever gonna encounter

1647
01:18:37,662 --> 01:18:43,412
has, And he's in a way got a buffet
of choices in front of him for where

1648
01:18:43,412 --> 01:18:44,522
his career goes in front of him.

1649
01:18:44,522 --> 01:18:45,662
And what he just said is that he wants.

1650
01:18:46,622 --> 01:18:49,862
He doesn't care what he does, whether
it's design, fabrication, installation,

1651
01:18:49,862 --> 01:18:52,922
sales, or whatever it may be,
whatever role that is, Jeff can do it.

1652
01:18:52,922 --> 01:18:53,582
And he doesn't care.

1653
01:18:53,582 --> 01:18:58,322
He wants to be in a role where he can
contribute, he can move the needle, and

1654
01:18:58,322 --> 01:19:02,612
his voice is heard, think, and everybody
needs to let that soak in that this,

1655
01:19:03,122 --> 01:19:05,072
he, his experience doesn't matter.

1656
01:19:05,072 --> 01:19:06,962
He just wants to have a
voice wherever he's at.

1657
01:19:06,962 --> 01:19:07,742
And that's huge.

1658
01:19:07,982 --> 01:19:13,202
And that's true of, I think, every single
employee out there with a few exceptions.

1659
01:19:13,322 --> 01:19:16,022
And I, I think that's a really
critical takeaway for everybody

1660
01:19:16,022 --> 01:19:17,552
to, to really let that soak in.

1661
01:19:17,552 --> 01:19:17,642
Mm-hmm.

1662
01:19:19,742 --> 01:19:19,772
, a

1663
01:19:19,772 --> 01:19:20,342
Bryant Gillespie: hundred percent.

1664
01:19:21,032 --> 01:19:22,292
Jeff, anything else

1665
01:19:22,297 --> 01:19:22,832
Jeff Sherman: you wanna share?

1666
01:19:23,002 --> 01:19:24,232
Oh, I think I've said enough.

1667
01:19:24,362 --> 01:19:27,561
I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna echo
Pete thing and, and say, , you know,

1668
01:19:27,566 --> 01:19:31,491
listen more, talk less, and I'm
gonna heed my own advice and, and

1669
01:19:31,491 --> 01:19:33,051
listen more and talk less right now.

1670
01:19:35,451 --> 01:19:35,931
Bryant Gillespie: Perfect.

1671
01:19:36,231 --> 01:19:39,277
Well, for me, yeah, Mike said it best man.

1672
01:19:39,997 --> 01:19:42,907
Uh, employees want to be valued.

1673
01:19:43,147 --> 01:19:46,027
They want to feel like they're
part of the organization.

1674
01:19:46,027 --> 01:19:46,927
They're not family.

1675
01:19:47,587 --> 01:19:52,093
They're, I always, kinda struggle when
say, Hey, we're a family here because

1676
01:19:52,098 --> 01:19:53,683
we're not like, I have a family.

1677
01:19:54,073 --> 01:19:58,723
This is, they're why I do part of what
I do, but also I wanna feel valued.

1678
01:19:58,813 --> 01:20:02,338
We all wanna feel special,
for us, younger generation.

1679
01:20:02,368 --> 01:20:06,538
I don't even know why I say younger,
like getting ready to turn 35.

1680
01:20:06,538 --> 01:20:10,648
So , I wake up with neck pain every day.

1681
01:20:10,648 --> 01:20:15,358
So I, I guess I've lost the, the
permission to use younger at this

1682
01:20:15,358 --> 01:20:15,538
Jeff Sherman: moment.

1683
01:20:15,538 --> 01:20:16,228
It doesn't get better.

1684
01:20:16,228 --> 01:20:19,288
Bryant, just, just so you
know, it doesn't get better.

1685
01:20:21,248 --> 01:20:21,538
, 
Michael Riley: I.

1686
01:20:23,278 --> 01:20:26,218
The next five years for you, or
you're in for a world like those are

1687
01:20:26,218 --> 01:20:29,188
the , 35 to 40 were the hardest for me.

1688
01:20:30,778 --> 01:20:33,568
, the aging that happens in that
short amount of time is incredible.

1689
01:20:33,568 --> 01:20:34,708
Guys, I, I

1690
01:20:34,708 --> 01:20:35,788
Jeff Sherman: look forward to meeting.

1691
01:20:36,098 --> 01:20:40,828
I, I, I just turned 48 2 weeks ago,
so Yeah, I, I'm, I'm, I'm feeling

1692
01:20:40,833 --> 01:20:42,788
a whole other level of mm-hmm.

1693
01:20:42,868 --> 01:20:43,308
. Mm-hmm.

1694
01:20:45,858 --> 01:20:46,348
. Yeah.

1695
01:20:46,348 --> 01:20:46,428
I

1696
01:20:46,458 --> 01:20:47,428
Michael Riley: appreciate that.

1697
01:20:47,458 --> 01:20:47,948
Yeah.

1698
01:20:47,953 --> 01:20:48,388
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

1699
01:20:48,393 --> 01:20:49,108
Absolutely.

1700
01:20:49,768 --> 01:20:50,368
All right guys.

1701
01:20:50,466 --> 01:20:51,306
great episode.

1702
01:20:51,306 --> 01:20:56,476
If you would like to be a guest on the
Better Sign Shop podcast, what do you do?

1703
01:20:56,476 --> 01:20:59,155
you email, Hey, at better sign shop.com.

1704
01:21:00,535 --> 01:21:01,325
Check us out.

1705
01:21:01,325 --> 01:21:02,149
what else do we have?

1706
01:21:02,914 --> 01:21:03,934
What else are we supposed to say?

1707
01:21:03,934 --> 01:21:04,204
Mike?

1708
01:21:04,290 --> 01:21:07,260
Michael Riley: join the Facebook
group and join the Mastermind group.

1709
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:08,310
Yeah, it's worth your time.

1710
01:21:08,340 --> 01:21:08,490
Yeah.

1711
01:21:08,490 --> 01:21:09,240
If you're a

1712
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:13,290
Bryant Gillespie: sign shop owner, check
out our Better Sign Shop community.

1713
01:21:13,290 --> 01:21:15,360
It is a private, safe space.

1714
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:19,920
We screen everybody for ownership,
so it's just owners there.

1715
01:21:20,430 --> 01:21:21,540
Talk about whatever you want.

1716
01:21:21,540 --> 01:21:22,350
Vent a little.

1717
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:23,610
Come chat with us.

1718
01:21:25,350 --> 01:21:25,590
What else?

1719
01:21:26,030 --> 01:21:26,310
Anything else?

1720
01:21:28,230 --> 01:21:29,010
Nope, that's it.

1721
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:30,540
. Thank you guys.

1722
01:21:31,230 --> 01:21:32,760
Thanks for listening to us ramble on.

1723
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:33,060
Jeff Sherman: Awesome.

1724
01:21:33,390 --> 01:21:34,200
We appreciate you.

1725
01:21:34,590 --> 01:21:35,490
Thanks for having me, guys.

1726
01:21:35,490 --> 01:21:36,000
Appreciate it.

1727
01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:36,630
Thank you, sir.

1728
01:21:37,530 --> 01:21:37,980
Take it easy.

1729
01:21:38,370 --> 01:21:38,880
Peter Kourounis: All right guys,

1730
01:21:39,240 --> 01:21:39,840
Bryant Gillespie: we'll see.

1731
01:21:40,980 --> 01:21:44,280
Jeff Sherman: If you liked this episode,
make sure you hit subscribe to get

1732
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:49,170
all the latest episodes and check out
our website, better sign shop.com.

1733
01:21:49,830 --> 01:21:53,130
Get free resources and helpful
tools on growing your shop.

1734
01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:54,480
Thanks for listening.