1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:03,670 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 2 00:00:04,020 --> 00:00:05,270 I'm your host, Jeff Yan. 3 00:00:05,979 --> 00:00:09,310 In this episode, you will hear part one of my conversation with Laura 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:14,049 DeSisto, Program Director and Senior Lecturer for the Master of Liberal Arts 5 00:00:14,070 --> 00:00:15,990 program at Johns Hopkins University. 6 00:00:17,019 --> 00:00:20,499 More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,079 Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. 8 00:00:22,660 --> 00:00:25,890 Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on 9 00:00:25,900 --> 00:00:27,550 YouTube or your favorite podcast app. 10 00:00:29,689 --> 00:00:32,140 Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations. 11 00:00:32,459 --> 00:00:33,680 I'm your host, Jeff Yan. 12 00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:38,820 My guest today is Laura DeSisto, Program Director and Senior Lecturer 13 00:00:38,980 --> 00:00:42,760 for the Master of Liberal Arts Program at Johns Hopkins University. 14 00:00:44,100 --> 00:00:44,760 Hi, Laura. 15 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:45,719 Hi, Jeff. 16 00:00:45,740 --> 00:00:46,349 How are you? 17 00:00:47,110 --> 00:00:48,090 Good, good. 18 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,099 Welcome, and it's great, it's great to see you here. 19 00:00:52,499 --> 00:00:55,009 Um, I've wanted to talk to you forever. 20 00:00:55,479 --> 00:01:03,030 Uh, I think that, um, uh, well, first of all, Uh, I've been just so impressed 21 00:01:03,030 --> 00:01:07,600 by your work with your students in this last year and a half or so that 22 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,590 I think we started working together. 23 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,380 It's just fabulous and it's amazing to see. 24 00:01:12,670 --> 00:01:16,239 Um, but, uh, that's why I want to invite you here to share some of, 25 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,160 you know, some of what I get to see. 26 00:01:18,190 --> 00:01:22,150 You know, I feel so privileged, um, but before I do that, 27 00:01:22,390 --> 00:01:24,410 um, we go and dive into that. 28 00:01:24,420 --> 00:01:26,180 I, I would love to. 29 00:01:26,460 --> 00:01:31,440 Talk more about you and sort of, um, tell us a little bit about yourself, 30 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:32,870 you know, how you came to be. 31 00:01:32,890 --> 00:01:36,679 And, and you are the, you are, you're a program director for 32 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,389 the Masters of Liberal Arts program, um, at Johns Hopkins. 33 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:46,830 Um, maybe, you know, give us a little background on yourself and also maybe 34 00:01:46,830 --> 00:01:53,225 a little intro to folks who I may not be even aware that people get 35 00:01:53,225 --> 00:01:56,375 master's degree in the liberal arts because I think a lot of people know 36 00:01:56,375 --> 00:01:59,795 that there is a liberal arts component to a lot of four year undergrad, 37 00:01:59,825 --> 00:02:01,424 you know, sort of college degrees. 38 00:02:01,425 --> 00:02:06,184 What is, what is, what is, you know, we'd like to dig into 39 00:02:06,184 --> 00:02:07,594 that in a little while too. 40 00:02:07,984 --> 00:02:10,345 So Um, but why don't you tell us about yourself? 41 00:02:10,495 --> 00:02:11,345 Sure, yes. 42 00:02:11,375 --> 00:02:14,895 And first of all, thank you so much, Jeff, for inviting me to have this conversation. 43 00:02:15,285 --> 00:02:20,415 I've really enjoyed the many conversations we've had over the last year and a half 44 00:02:20,434 --> 00:02:27,034 and it's just been such a wonderful experience to explore what Digication can 45 00:02:27,035 --> 00:02:30,935 do and how it opens up new opportunities for my faculty and for my students. 46 00:02:30,945 --> 00:02:34,220 So Really, I'm grateful to have this opportunity to talk to you. 47 00:02:35,030 --> 00:02:39,050 So, uh, in terms of providing that background, I'll touch on both. 48 00:02:39,535 --> 00:02:43,825 Maybe what I'll do first though is start with talking about the MLA program as the 49 00:02:43,825 --> 00:02:49,385 point of entry and then I'll, I'll share a little bit about how and why I came to 50 00:02:49,385 --> 00:02:52,035 be in the position with regard to the MLA. 51 00:02:52,994 --> 00:02:58,234 So the Master of Liberal Arts at Johns Hopkins is actually the first graduate 52 00:02:58,235 --> 00:03:00,765 program of its kind in the United States. 53 00:03:00,775 --> 00:03:04,155 So you're right to be asking this question because we're the first ones 54 00:03:04,155 --> 00:03:06,714 who created a a master's level degree. 55 00:03:07,390 --> 00:03:12,910 Primarily, or with the focus of being just the liberal arts in a very broad 56 00:03:13,370 --> 00:03:15,780 term rather than a specified discipline. 57 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,250 Uh, and it's, we just celebrated our 60th anniversary, so we've 58 00:03:20,250 --> 00:03:21,490 been around for a while now. 59 00:03:21,899 --> 00:03:26,269 Uh, of course, we have now a number of other programs across the country at other 60 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,290 wonderful universities and they go by different names, Master of Liberal Arts. 61 00:03:30,715 --> 00:03:35,675 Masters of Arts in Liberal Studies and other variations thereof, but, 62 00:03:36,115 --> 00:03:41,595 uh, across the board, these master's level programs are intended to provide 63 00:03:41,665 --> 00:03:48,494 students with opportunities to take a deeper dive into the liberal arts, um, 64 00:03:48,705 --> 00:03:53,954 at a level that goes beyond what's more typical at that undergraduate four year, 65 00:03:53,984 --> 00:03:58,070 either in terms of the general education or core curriculum, Or, in terms of 66 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:02,180 the more highly specified, discipline specific major that students completed. 67 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,570 With regard to the MLA program at Johns Hopkins, what makes us unique, 68 00:04:08,930 --> 00:04:13,000 and this has been with us the whole time since we were first established, 69 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,490 is that we are really a program that is interdisciplinary by design. 70 00:04:19,110 --> 00:04:22,860 So, we are not, there are other models that are out there, 71 00:04:22,860 --> 00:04:23,930 so that's the disclaimer. 72 00:04:24,150 --> 00:04:28,360 The choice that we've made with the Johns Hopkins Master of Liberal Arts program. 73 00:04:28,745 --> 00:04:33,975 Is that our courses are topic or question driven, and then our faculty and students 74 00:04:34,844 --> 00:04:41,015 engage with, study, examine, explore that topic or question, drawing from 75 00:04:41,025 --> 00:04:46,945 multiple disciplinary perspectives, even if each faculty member might have 76 00:04:47,264 --> 00:04:50,825 a particular area of specialization that they bring to the conversation. 77 00:04:51,169 --> 00:04:54,780 They're still expected to also go on that journey and bring in 78 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,570 other disciplinary voices and ideas and responses to that question. 79 00:04:59,370 --> 00:05:03,850 So, uh, our students, it's, it's a non specialized master's 80 00:05:03,850 --> 00:05:05,150 degree in that respect. 81 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:07,840 Um, but we do have some. 82 00:05:08,885 --> 00:05:12,604 Common threads that exist across our programs. 83 00:05:12,715 --> 00:05:16,184 So, regardless of which specific topic or course our students are 84 00:05:16,184 --> 00:05:19,735 studying, we do want them to be grounded in the history of ideas. 85 00:05:19,995 --> 00:05:24,324 We want them to understand the, the scholarly discourse that has 86 00:05:24,325 --> 00:05:26,744 occurred up until this point in time. 87 00:05:26,745 --> 00:05:31,434 We want them to understand history and context and social movements 88 00:05:31,434 --> 00:05:32,864 and all those different factors. 89 00:05:33,185 --> 00:05:37,655 that have contributed to our understanding of ourselves and the world around us. 90 00:05:37,665 --> 00:05:39,215 So, we make sure that that happens. 91 00:05:39,515 --> 00:05:45,245 As I already mentioned, we are very much interested in questions, whether you 92 00:05:45,264 --> 00:05:50,045 call them essential questions or eternal questions or unanswerable questions. 93 00:05:50,045 --> 00:05:54,454 We're, we're, we're interested in providing our students with openings 94 00:05:54,605 --> 00:05:58,215 and opportunities to explore those questions in depth and to work their 95 00:05:58,215 --> 00:06:04,045 way into finding some way of engaging with them thoughtfully and meaningfully. 96 00:06:04,474 --> 00:06:14,390 We also want our students to be able to understand That each discipline has its 97 00:06:14,430 --> 00:06:20,250 own complexity in terms of how it responds to different topics, or ideas, or issues, 98 00:06:20,250 --> 00:06:25,380 or challenges, and to be able to work within the complexity of each discipline, 99 00:06:25,420 --> 00:06:30,930 and then also be able to work across the different disciplines, and put those 100 00:06:30,930 --> 00:06:33,230 different methods of inquiry and dialogue. 101 00:06:34,370 --> 00:06:36,730 So, that's what's happening in our program. 102 00:06:36,730 --> 00:06:40,610 I hope that doesn't sound too abstract, uh, happy to elaborate 103 00:06:40,610 --> 00:06:43,800 further, but, uh, that's the approach that we take with the MLA. 104 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:48,619 Yeah, actually, I'd love to get a little deeper into, you know, maybe what's an 105 00:06:48,619 --> 00:06:55,459 example of one of these big questions, you know, big topic that, that might start 106 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:01,230 that conversation and then what would A, you know, an example student will do. 107 00:07:01,725 --> 00:07:02,170 Yeah, yeah. 108 00:07:02,555 --> 00:07:04,335 Oh, that's a, that's a what students will do. 109 00:07:04,335 --> 00:07:04,575 Yeah. 110 00:07:04,580 --> 00:07:04,870 Yeah. 111 00:07:04,870 --> 00:07:06,070 That's a really great question. 112 00:07:06,070 --> 00:07:13,880 So, um, and I should also add that we have the model of our program is very flexible. 113 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:15,500 Our students do 10 courses. 114 00:07:16,010 --> 00:07:19,510 They take one core, eight electives, and one capstone, and that'll come 115 00:07:19,510 --> 00:07:22,150 up later in our conversation as we're talking about Digication. 116 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,309 With our core, they actually choose from five different core options, and 117 00:07:27,309 --> 00:07:30,160 then they can take additional cores as electives as they go through. 118 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,440 And part of what we've played with with some of our core course titles is 119 00:07:35,470 --> 00:07:37,130 putting them in the form of a question. 120 00:07:37,140 --> 00:07:40,789 So I'll give you those two examples to answer your question, but of course, 121 00:07:41,140 --> 00:07:42,800 there are many, many more that I could do. 122 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:49,505 So One example is, uh, our core course called What is History, and 123 00:07:49,505 --> 00:07:53,414 the other example is our core course that is called Why Read the Classics. 124 00:07:54,075 --> 00:08:03,594 So for What is History, its the point of it is to help students actually 125 00:08:03,655 --> 00:08:09,865 learn about historiography, which is something that you usually don't 126 00:08:09,905 --> 00:08:14,765 encounter, certainly in your high school education Depending on how 127 00:08:14,765 --> 00:08:19,645 far you go with studying history and undergraduate, you may or may not have 128 00:08:19,645 --> 00:08:24,505 many opportunities to do, but what it essentially does is it helps students 129 00:08:24,554 --> 00:08:29,594 understand that history is a field that is constantly in the process of being made. 130 00:08:29,605 --> 00:08:35,544 And so our, our understanding of a particular topic changes and shifts 131 00:08:35,634 --> 00:08:40,274 as the scholarship in response to that particular topic changes and shifts. 132 00:08:40,534 --> 00:08:45,770 So What our students then do in that course is they pick a particular topic 133 00:08:45,770 --> 00:08:50,030 that's of interest to them and they don't just study the topic from a direct 134 00:08:50,100 --> 00:08:54,400 standpoint of what are the facts, what happened, and who, who was impacted. 135 00:08:54,939 --> 00:08:59,899 Instead, what they're doing is they're looking at what has the scholarship said? 136 00:09:00,244 --> 00:09:01,395 about what happened. 137 00:09:01,634 --> 00:09:03,114 How has it changed? 138 00:09:03,344 --> 00:09:05,074 Who was doing that study? 139 00:09:05,254 --> 00:09:06,775 What voices were heard? 140 00:09:06,795 --> 00:09:09,305 Which voices and perspectives were excluded? 141 00:09:09,545 --> 00:09:13,594 What other threads or other interpretations or other directions? 142 00:09:14,145 --> 00:09:19,195 Have people gone in and responding or navigating or investigating 143 00:09:19,425 --> 00:09:20,605 that particular topic? 144 00:09:20,795 --> 00:09:27,674 And how does the understanding of those, I don't want to say evolving, right? 145 00:09:27,674 --> 00:09:30,735 Because it doesn't always mean a neat and tidy progression, right? 146 00:09:30,754 --> 00:09:37,974 Sometimes they're very distinct and competing ideas of or interpretations 147 00:09:37,974 --> 00:09:41,775 of what happened um, when looking at that particular topic. 148 00:09:42,475 --> 00:09:46,245 It allows students to then get at the deeper questions. 149 00:09:46,635 --> 00:09:52,805 about who we are, what can we know, what does it mean to make claims, right? 150 00:09:52,855 --> 00:09:57,475 Uh, a lot of students think of facts in very objective terms, 151 00:09:57,865 --> 00:10:01,255 uh, as if they're established and unquestioned and those sorts of things. 152 00:10:01,255 --> 00:10:05,075 So as you start with that very broad question of what is history, you 153 00:10:05,095 --> 00:10:09,055 actually end up starting to ask these other questions that get to some 154 00:10:09,055 --> 00:10:14,285 of those more eternal, potentially unanswerable, but always really 155 00:10:14,285 --> 00:10:15,924 interesting and rewarding to look at. 156 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,980 Questions about who we are and how we understand ourselves. 157 00:10:19,250 --> 00:10:21,850 What is the, what is the nature of story, right? 158 00:10:21,850 --> 00:10:25,850 What is the role that story plays in our understanding of ourselves? 159 00:10:25,850 --> 00:10:27,970 And who shapes those narratives? 160 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:34,620 And then when certain accounts of events become accepted, what 161 00:10:34,630 --> 00:10:35,870 are the consequences of that? 162 00:10:35,870 --> 00:10:41,570 And how does that affect and impact, uh, things that happen later on down the 163 00:10:41,570 --> 00:10:43,690 line, whether directly or indirectly? 164 00:10:43,690 --> 00:10:45,720 So, So that's one example. 165 00:10:45,950 --> 00:10:46,750 Is that helpful? 166 00:10:47,380 --> 00:10:48,820 Yeah, it's, it's amazing. 167 00:10:49,050 --> 00:10:57,825 To me, it almost feels like, um, you know, sort of thinking about, um, You know, like 168 00:10:57,825 --> 00:11:01,245 the difference between looking at, you know, sort of, you know, the first time 169 00:11:01,245 --> 00:11:06,355 you see, you, you had algebra class and then you're like, well, hold on a minute. 170 00:11:06,355 --> 00:11:11,265 There's also, um, you know, you know, there, there is also calculus that 171 00:11:11,285 --> 00:11:15,164 completely just, you know, like looks at it in a completely different way 172 00:11:15,164 --> 00:11:16,595 and is ever going to be changing. 173 00:11:16,734 --> 00:11:17,224 Exactly. 174 00:11:17,335 --> 00:11:19,785 look at it at a microscopic level, you know? 175 00:11:19,825 --> 00:11:20,205 Yeah. 176 00:11:20,245 --> 00:11:23,165 Um, and when you look at it like that, it's no longer just a 177 00:11:23,165 --> 00:11:24,755 straight line on, on the curve. 178 00:11:24,755 --> 00:11:24,885 Yeah. 179 00:11:24,885 --> 00:11:24,899 Exactly. 180 00:11:25,060 --> 00:11:27,870 It's actually, you know, it's the straight line that just happens to be a 181 00:11:27,870 --> 00:11:29,260 straight line and you see it that way. 182 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:29,819 Right. 183 00:11:31,340 --> 00:11:32,520 Yeah, absolutely. 184 00:11:32,530 --> 00:11:33,240 Extremely. 185 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:34,850 Extremely sophisticated and. 186 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:42,150 I, I kind of wonder, you know, for me, I mean, this is, you must swim in an 187 00:11:42,220 --> 00:11:48,100 intellectual pool of, um, you know, it's, it's like intellectual pool of heaven, 188 00:11:48,260 --> 00:11:54,050 you know, people, you know, thinking and challenging these big ideas all day. 189 00:11:54,109 --> 00:11:54,589 Yeah. 190 00:11:54,589 --> 00:12:00,340 And that's, that's one of the things that I am reminded of every single 191 00:12:00,350 --> 00:12:04,669 day and working in this program, uh, both in terms of the faculty. 192 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,060 Who are drawn to teaching in this program because it does mean you have 193 00:12:08,060 --> 00:12:11,650 to be comfortable putting yourself outside of your own comfort zone, right? 194 00:12:11,650 --> 00:12:17,189 You can't, uh, the nature of doctoral studies primarily, especially in 195 00:12:17,189 --> 00:12:20,840 the U.S., is, but also around the world, is highly specialized, right? 196 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:25,630 So all of us who have our doctoral degrees are coming from a very highly 197 00:12:25,630 --> 00:12:29,350 specialized background in terms of our research and the work that we do. 198 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:35,329 And our courses not only say to our students, but also say to the faculty, 199 00:12:35,339 --> 00:12:38,079 you can't stay within that comfort zone. 200 00:12:38,089 --> 00:12:39,920 You can't stay within those boundaries. 201 00:12:40,229 --> 00:12:44,919 You have to be open to thinking about other angles, other approaches, 202 00:12:44,939 --> 00:12:46,540 other disciplinary lenses. 203 00:12:47,450 --> 00:12:52,050 can add additional dimensions to the conversation or open up whole 204 00:12:52,050 --> 00:12:53,730 other areas of critique even. 205 00:12:54,090 --> 00:12:58,769 And so our faculty definitely have that disposition and then our 206 00:12:58,769 --> 00:13:01,890 students are the ones who set the example time and time and time again. 207 00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:07,529 We have such an incredible, diverse, inquisitive, highly 208 00:13:07,530 --> 00:13:08,980 motivated group of students. 209 00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:15,430 Who, who dive into the opportunities in this program and just never cease to 210 00:13:15,430 --> 00:13:19,760 amaze me with the directions that they take, uh, the conversations and the class 211 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,640 discussions and those kinds of things. 212 00:13:21,729 --> 00:13:22,199 Yeah. 213 00:13:23,419 --> 00:13:28,439 I mean, this, I mean, in, in some ways, you know, you were talking about these, 214 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:34,180 you know, folks having, you know, these essential questions and having discussions 215 00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:40,555 and debates and, um, Would you, would you call it sort of Socratic in the 216 00:13:40,555 --> 00:13:43,604 way that it's, um, it's structured? 217 00:13:43,644 --> 00:13:46,775 Yeah, I mean, I, I think, I think to an extent. 218 00:13:46,795 --> 00:13:51,784 So the critique that some people have of the Socratic method, and I, and I 219 00:13:51,784 --> 00:13:55,524 don't think it's actually grounded in the Socratic dialogues, at least my 220 00:13:55,524 --> 00:13:57,385 interpretation of the Socratic dialogues. 221 00:13:57,454 --> 00:14:01,354 Um, but many people see that the Socratic method when it's used in 222 00:14:01,354 --> 00:14:02,574 a higher education environment. 223 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,210 is almost a performative act, right? 224 00:14:06,220 --> 00:14:10,640 To bring to that, that actually something that I think Socrates, 225 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,660 at least as we know him through the dialogues, would probably critique. 226 00:14:13,990 --> 00:14:19,560 Which is asking provocative questions just for the sake of asking them and, 227 00:14:19,590 --> 00:14:23,889 and I don't think that's actually what he was doing and I, and I, or at least 228 00:14:23,890 --> 00:14:27,510 the way it's portrayed in the dialogues and, and I would say that the more 229 00:14:27,510 --> 00:14:32,019 generous interpretation of, you know, the Socratic dialogue or the Socratic 230 00:14:32,370 --> 00:14:35,300 method in teaching It's definitely something that we're doing, right? 231 00:14:35,300 --> 00:14:37,780 Where Just the concept of keep asking questions. 232 00:14:37,819 --> 00:14:38,050 Yeah. 233 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,949 And not just keep asking, but ask the follow up questions. 234 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,310 Because what I see Socrates doing in those dialogues is he's asking 235 00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:47,620 the follow up questions to take it beyond the surface level. 236 00:14:47,620 --> 00:14:48,589 To go deeper. 237 00:14:48,589 --> 00:14:52,369 To say, okay, if you answer this question in this way. 238 00:14:52,819 --> 00:14:57,290 Doesn't that bring up all these other questions, and how can we fully 239 00:14:57,290 --> 00:15:01,009 understand our answer to this first question if we don't also then take the 240 00:15:01,009 --> 00:15:06,680 time to think through what it means to answer that question that way or how 241 00:15:06,689 --> 00:15:10,449 we go about answering these secondary and tertiary and so on and so forth? 242 00:15:10,755 --> 00:15:12,444 These other questions that follow. 243 00:15:12,665 --> 00:15:16,334 And so that genuine, going back to some of the other things that we've 244 00:15:16,344 --> 00:15:21,045 talked about in the past, that genuine approach, that authentic approach to 245 00:15:21,045 --> 00:15:27,035 question it, asking for the purpose of the shared project of trying to make 246 00:15:27,074 --> 00:15:29,724 meaning and understand things better. 247 00:15:30,105 --> 00:15:31,115 Absolutely, yes. 248 00:15:31,805 --> 00:15:36,595 Happily, fully embrace that that is something that we're trying to do, uh, in 249 00:15:36,595 --> 00:15:39,035 our courses, uh, throughout this program. 250 00:15:39,710 --> 00:15:40,070 Yeah. 251 00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:45,060 Well, I, I ask also because, you know, it, it has become a bit of a buzzword for 252 00:15:45,070 --> 00:15:50,350 especially a lot of K 12, you know, um, sort of schools, people talk about it. 253 00:15:50,840 --> 00:16:00,185 Um, sometimes I sort of wonder, you know, that you have a 60-year-old model 254 00:16:00,574 --> 00:16:06,265 that has been working tremendously well, um, and you, you are, you know, 255 00:16:06,744 --> 00:16:11,255 it's, you're understanding it, you're also multiplying your, your, your 256 00:16:11,265 --> 00:16:13,194 knowledge year over year as well. 257 00:16:13,204 --> 00:16:18,184 So it's, it, I almost feel like that in this MLA program, you've, 258 00:16:18,664 --> 00:16:23,574 you've got an accumulation of, explosion of, like, amazing amount 259 00:16:23,574 --> 00:16:26,175 of knowledge and experiences. 260 00:16:26,620 --> 00:16:30,940 But it's not about content, it's about the construct and the process of how to 261 00:16:30,940 --> 00:16:37,780 learn and how to, how to be, um, a better human, how to be someone who understands 262 00:16:37,780 --> 00:16:43,430 the world, you know, um, in a, in a, in a, in a more meaningful way, right? 263 00:16:43,469 --> 00:16:43,959 Yeah. 264 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:50,435 These are things that We, at least I feel, I know that you have a, you have 265 00:16:50,444 --> 00:17:01,374 a young child and I have children, that we want, I would want my five and six 266 00:17:01,374 --> 00:17:05,294 year olds to be able to experience this. 267 00:17:05,935 --> 00:17:11,055 Even though they are far from being able to do the level of work 268 00:17:11,095 --> 00:17:15,655 that you do with your graduate students at Johns Hopkins, right? 269 00:17:16,345 --> 00:17:22,970 But I feel like that there's got to be some, some ways of making Making 270 00:17:22,970 --> 00:17:27,470 some connections there because I don't believe, I mean, I believe that 271 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,180 by the level of rigor, um, yeah, I mean, they probably won't have the 272 00:17:32,180 --> 00:17:36,930 level of maturity and knowledge and sophistication to maybe have the same 273 00:17:36,930 --> 00:17:41,719 kind of conversations, but it shouldn't be taken away the opportunity to do that. 274 00:17:41,980 --> 00:17:43,200 To learn in that way. 275 00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:44,300 Absolutely. 276 00:17:44,370 --> 00:17:47,760 Uh, so I have so many things I want to say in response to that. 277 00:17:47,890 --> 00:17:51,060 So, um, and I guess this will get back to one of your earlier 278 00:17:51,060 --> 00:17:53,000 questions about my background. 279 00:17:53,019 --> 00:17:58,210 And so I should explain that my PhD is in philosophy and education. 280 00:17:58,220 --> 00:18:01,850 So it was an inter even though I said we're highly specialized, in my 281 00:18:01,850 --> 00:18:05,100 case, it was an interdisciplinary, highly specialized doctoral degree. 282 00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:15,264 And so Um, I have been for a very, very long time, over 20 years, uh, interested 283 00:18:15,264 --> 00:18:20,625 in these intersections between philosophy and the work of education, and not 284 00:18:21,074 --> 00:18:23,004 exclusively higher education, right? 285 00:18:23,004 --> 00:18:27,204 Education, and, and, and in fact, a good portion of my career prior to joining 286 00:18:27,224 --> 00:18:29,044 Johns Hopkins was in teacher education. 287 00:18:29,314 --> 00:18:30,809 So work, and those. 288 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:36,200 I have a very special place in my heart for working with, um, future educators 289 00:18:36,230 --> 00:18:42,350 and then also long serving teachers, uh, who, uh, go on to, uh, Do additional work 290 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:46,159 in, and I can talk about that later too, but in the liberal arts in particular. 291 00:18:46,499 --> 00:18:53,510 And so emphatically, my answer is yes, there is a place for 292 00:18:53,540 --> 00:18:57,300 these kinds of conversations at every single level of education. 293 00:18:57,330 --> 00:19:00,939 I also, as you mentioned, happen to have a four year old and an eight year old. 294 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,820 At this point in time, dispositionally, My four year old is much more 295 00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:08,900 open to the kinds of philosophical conversations I try to have. 296 00:19:09,170 --> 00:19:13,250 My eight year old, it'll be more of a journey to get her there, but, uh, 297 00:19:13,259 --> 00:19:17,160 she, she enjoys many other things, but sometimes she'll just roll her eyes 298 00:19:17,179 --> 00:19:21,100 at me, but maybe that comes with the territory of having an eight year old, 299 00:19:21,459 --> 00:19:28,335 uh, but, um, there are, so I should say, I've been thinking of my colleagues, 300 00:19:28,375 --> 00:19:35,495 there are some amazing people who are trying to do this kind of work in pre K 301 00:19:35,495 --> 00:19:39,425 through 12 environment, and there are some amazing scholars who've done this work, 302 00:19:39,425 --> 00:19:43,754 especially throughout the 20th century, really, really good work has been done. 303 00:19:43,785 --> 00:19:49,784 It's not necessarily, and this is part of the dance of do you, are you 304 00:19:49,794 --> 00:19:54,444 overt in calling it philosophical, you know, the infiltration of 305 00:19:54,444 --> 00:19:56,435 philosophical ideas and thinking. 306 00:19:56,830 --> 00:20:01,430 And teaching methods in the K 12 environment, or are you doing it, 307 00:20:01,610 --> 00:20:03,260 you know, in more subtle ways? 308 00:20:03,659 --> 00:20:08,740 But, um, there is an organization called the Institute for Philosophy for Children. 309 00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:14,600 And they work directly with teachers, um, in that pre K through 12, uh, range. 310 00:20:14,909 --> 00:20:18,999 Um, and they have wonderful programs and training and those kinds of things are, 311 00:20:19,209 --> 00:20:20,610 there's excellent research out there. 312 00:20:20,979 --> 00:20:25,149 Uh, back when I would teach in, uh, teacher education programs in 313 00:20:25,869 --> 00:20:30,150 undergraduate and graduate alike, there's this really great book called 314 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,770 Little Big Minds by Marietta McCarty. 315 00:20:33,005 --> 00:20:38,115 And she takes that more question driven, like she takes a certain topic and 316 00:20:38,115 --> 00:20:40,784 she talks about how you can engage. 317 00:20:41,290 --> 00:20:47,360 With very young children all the way through in that more 318 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:52,130 conversational approach, how do you talk about something like death? 319 00:20:52,130 --> 00:20:54,890 How do you talk about something like the concept of time? 320 00:20:55,220 --> 00:21:00,010 Because honestly, many children come to philosophical questions 321 00:21:00,010 --> 00:21:01,390 quite naturally, right? 322 00:21:01,390 --> 00:21:04,690 They're trying to make an meaning and and understand 323 00:21:04,690 --> 00:21:06,040 everything that's all around us. 324 00:21:06,310 --> 00:21:07,960 Many of the things that we already. 325 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:14,020 Have ceased to question or we take for granted and so, um, it, it 326 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,899 absolutely is the case that there's a place for this kind of work and 327 00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:18,320 that kind of educational environment. 328 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,509 There is good work being done, but I always think there could be more. 329 00:21:21,740 --> 00:21:25,840 What I'm thrilled to see is that a program like the MLA. 330 00:21:26,235 --> 00:21:27,495 is such a good fit. 331 00:21:27,625 --> 00:21:32,014 We do have a good number and a nice strong history of educators who come 332 00:21:32,054 --> 00:21:36,925 and pursue the MLA program as a part of their ongoing growth and professional 333 00:21:36,925 --> 00:21:38,205 development and that sort of thing. 334 00:21:38,205 --> 00:21:43,714 And I just think it, it suits them very, very well to, to have these 335 00:21:43,714 --> 00:21:47,325 opportunities, even if the specific topics they study in our classes. 336 00:21:48,149 --> 00:21:50,989 You know, it might not be the same readings that they bring to their students 337 00:21:50,989 --> 00:21:55,370 in their classrooms, but they, time and time again, tell me, Oh, I'm taking 338 00:21:55,419 --> 00:21:59,239 elements of the different things that I've encountered in the MLA program and 339 00:21:59,250 --> 00:22:02,919 directly bringing it into my classroom and sharing it with my students. 340 00:22:02,989 --> 00:22:04,789 And they are eating it up. 341 00:22:04,829 --> 00:22:05,800 They are devouring it. 342 00:22:05,819 --> 00:22:12,265 They're absolutely connecting with The types of things that my students are 343 00:22:12,275 --> 00:22:16,875 bringing with them from this program, which I think goes back to, you know, 344 00:22:16,885 --> 00:22:20,784 those other things that we've been talking about, which is that when 345 00:22:20,784 --> 00:22:27,455 you are trying to understand and make meaning of the world around you, 346 00:22:29,564 --> 00:22:35,644 it no longer seems like a stale or abstract or pointless exercise, right? 347 00:22:35,674 --> 00:22:36,254 It's not. 348 00:22:36,965 --> 00:22:40,155 Having somebody jump through hoops just for the sake of doing it and saying 349 00:22:40,155 --> 00:22:46,705 no, like, what does it mean to be in this world with other people who have 350 00:22:46,715 --> 00:22:50,344 vastly different ways of understanding the concept of what truth is or what 351 00:22:50,365 --> 00:22:52,004 objectivity is or that sort of thing? 352 00:22:52,445 --> 00:22:54,054 How do we see that playing out? 353 00:22:54,084 --> 00:22:58,685 And then you can, you can imagine examples just flow from there. 354 00:22:58,685 --> 00:22:59,805 And then you can, and then. 355 00:23:00,365 --> 00:23:03,995 How do you, how do people approach those topics or ideas 356 00:23:03,995 --> 00:23:05,455 from a literary perspective? 357 00:23:05,465 --> 00:23:08,035 What does that look like in a historical perspective? 358 00:23:08,035 --> 00:23:09,105 And so on and so forth. 359 00:23:09,544 --> 00:23:13,174 And students of all ages are able, again, you scale it and you would make 360 00:23:13,174 --> 00:23:15,014 adjustments for the different age levels. 361 00:23:15,469 --> 00:23:19,040 But, um, they're able to connect because those connections 362 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,590 already are present, right? 363 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,250 It's not forced. 364 00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:28,159 It's not something that's, um, shoehorned in to, to the work of learning. 365 00:23:29,369 --> 00:23:33,210 Well, those are some of the things that I, I, I feel like, you know, that worries 366 00:23:33,210 --> 00:23:40,340 me so much these days, um, is in the, you know, extremism and the tribalism 367 00:23:40,340 --> 00:23:46,930 of, you know, how our world is, is being organized, especially with the. 368 00:23:48,075 --> 00:23:53,395 With the popularizations of all of the social media in which they take advantage 369 00:23:53,395 --> 00:23:59,135 of the fact that oh, hold on a minute we can take emotion as one of our, our, our, 370 00:23:59,565 --> 00:24:02,894 our tools, ammunition to draw eyeballs. 371 00:24:03,435 --> 00:24:04,074 I know. 372 00:24:04,145 --> 00:24:05,874 Unfortunately, it turns into money. 373 00:24:06,434 --> 00:24:11,124 It's almost like, oh man, I wish they had found anything else, you know? 374 00:24:11,494 --> 00:24:11,944 I know. 375 00:24:12,824 --> 00:24:19,170 But as a result, I almost feel like that in the last And I don't, I guess, you 376 00:24:19,170 --> 00:24:23,680 know, the most recent history always seems most, you know, you know, feels, 377 00:24:23,690 --> 00:24:29,720 feels most, most true, but, you know, but, but definitely it feels very real 378 00:24:29,730 --> 00:24:39,135 that, um, we, that our society doesn't have meaningful ways to, Disagree with 379 00:24:39,135 --> 00:24:43,265 each other without trying to kill each other, um, you know, like, like the, 380 00:24:43,445 --> 00:24:48,635 like you were talking about having critiques and having discourses, you 381 00:24:48,635 --> 00:24:54,144 know, these are fantastic ways to, like I said, it sounds like a pool of 382 00:24:54,165 --> 00:25:01,510 intellectual heaven, but in the way that You know, it's being translated 383 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,090 in our world today, it's not, right? 384 00:25:04,139 --> 00:25:06,770 It's turning into the opposite direction, you know? 385 00:25:06,820 --> 00:25:07,959 Yeah, absolutely. 386 00:25:08,010 --> 00:25:09,099 And, you know. 387 00:25:09,544 --> 00:25:14,264 One of the things, so the MLA program obviously being 60 years old, um, 388 00:25:14,754 --> 00:25:20,175 the majority of its history has been traditional on campus classes, 389 00:25:20,225 --> 00:25:23,985 uh, at primarily at the Johns Hopkins Baltimore Homewood Campus. 390 00:25:24,394 --> 00:25:28,564 But in more recent years, so I'm about to enter into my sixth year 391 00:25:28,575 --> 00:25:32,825 here at Johns Hopkins, and I would say it was approximately three 392 00:25:32,825 --> 00:25:35,085 or four years before I jo joined. 393 00:25:35,335 --> 00:25:37,415 The program had started moving. 394 00:25:37,735 --> 00:25:40,575 over into also providing online offerings. 395 00:25:40,595 --> 00:25:44,965 And at this point in time, uh, due to a variety of different 396 00:25:44,965 --> 00:25:48,955 factors, we're primarily fully online at this point in time. 397 00:25:48,965 --> 00:25:54,895 And in fact, We're asynchronous, which means for people who don't know is that 398 00:25:55,014 --> 00:26:00,045 there's no specific day and time in which all of the students are logging 399 00:26:00,045 --> 00:26:05,474 in together, whether it's, um, through a video conference or, or something else 400 00:26:05,484 --> 00:26:07,254 where they're all engaging simultaneous. 401 00:26:07,935 --> 00:26:13,625 An asynchronous online class, uh, has a very different approach and, 402 00:26:13,655 --> 00:26:18,065 and for us, Our students still work within a weekly schedule, they still 403 00:26:18,065 --> 00:26:21,375 have shared assignments, they still do projects, they still have all 404 00:26:21,375 --> 00:26:25,354 the range of different kinds of, of things that a student normally does 405 00:26:25,354 --> 00:26:32,925 in any class, but the conversations happen across the duration of a week. 406 00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:35,960 And the reason why I'm bringing this up in response to what you're saying 407 00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:41,610 is that, so first of all, as we, you know, increasingly became more and 408 00:26:41,610 --> 00:26:45,460 more of an online program, there's the knee jerk reaction of, you know, 409 00:26:45,490 --> 00:26:50,320 the romanticized notion of the in person classroom environment and So 410 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,179 much is lost, and so on and so forth. 411 00:26:52,179 --> 00:26:53,159 And I'm sympathetic. 412 00:26:53,159 --> 00:26:57,889 I understand that, again, the majority of my teaching career, you know, decades 413 00:26:57,909 --> 00:27:04,040 long has been in in person environments, and I do, there is some really special 414 00:27:04,405 --> 00:27:07,865 energy and synergy that comes from having a group of people all in the 415 00:27:07,865 --> 00:27:11,525 same room together, all dialed in and discussing ideas with one another. 416 00:27:11,855 --> 00:27:17,465 But the reality is actually that oftentimes in those environments, the, the 417 00:27:17,855 --> 00:27:22,144 strongest, most confident, loudest voices are the ones that are heard the most. 418 00:27:22,144 --> 00:27:25,115 And of course, we as educators are trained to find different 419 00:27:25,115 --> 00:27:26,615 ways to create those spaces. 420 00:27:26,990 --> 00:27:30,480 To make sure all the students voices have an opportunity to be 421 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,140 heard and to share and contribute. 422 00:27:32,140 --> 00:27:36,520 But some people are processors and like to spend more time crafting their responses. 423 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:41,080 And other people think in ways that don't fit within the confines 424 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,890 of a time bound class session. 425 00:27:44,449 --> 00:27:48,210 And what I have seen, and this I think connects back to what you're 426 00:27:48,210 --> 00:27:52,320 talking about, is that because of the asynchronous model, because of 427 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:57,219 the fact that our students have time to compose their responses to 428 00:27:57,219 --> 00:27:58,629 different questions that we're asking. 429 00:27:59,039 --> 00:28:02,600 So then carefully read over their classmates thoughts, right? 430 00:28:02,609 --> 00:28:04,029 Nobody gets to hide. 431 00:28:04,279 --> 00:28:07,669 Nobody gets to avoid responding to a question or idea. 432 00:28:08,009 --> 00:28:13,069 And then they're required to engage thoughtfully with each other's comments. 433 00:28:13,189 --> 00:28:20,990 Not in a knee jerk, quick, fast, you know, these, these kind of very abbreviated. 434 00:28:21,010 --> 00:28:26,940 Um, Reactive kind of ways that we often see play out, 435 00:28:27,020 --> 00:28:28,650 especially in certain platforms. 436 00:28:29,070 --> 00:28:33,149 Um, instead, they have, you know, even if they read something that 437 00:28:33,149 --> 00:28:37,049 they disagree with strongly, and maybe their initial response is to 438 00:28:37,059 --> 00:28:38,790 be like, what are you talking about? 439 00:28:39,079 --> 00:28:41,469 They have an opportunity to step back, right? 440 00:28:41,469 --> 00:28:47,540 It's still within the boundary of a week, but still, to think about how might I. 441 00:28:48,135 --> 00:28:52,075 Respond to that other person in my class, acknowledge what I hear them 442 00:28:52,085 --> 00:28:56,605 saying, and then push back in ways that are productive, that might help 443 00:28:56,605 --> 00:28:59,914 that other person understand their point of view, and so on and so forth. 444 00:29:00,164 --> 00:29:04,365 So I think that the format, although we're, you know, there are Again, we're 445 00:29:04,365 --> 00:29:07,895 still navigating it, and it's a good fit for some people more so than others, 446 00:29:07,935 --> 00:29:14,975 but what I am seeing is it becomes an exercise in teaching us how to engage 447 00:29:15,465 --> 00:29:20,445 with one another in online spaces, which can otherwise seem very impersonal. 448 00:29:20,820 --> 00:29:27,310 Otherwise, seem like these almost combative, reactive spaces in ways 449 00:29:27,310 --> 00:29:29,770 that push against all of that, right? 450 00:29:29,780 --> 00:29:36,520 To develop those habits of discourse and dialogue in, in ways that make 451 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,559 it, it's not impersonal, right? 452 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,629 They, our students create really amazing lasting relationships with 453 00:29:42,629 --> 00:29:46,379 one another, and they could be located on completely different Parts of the 454 00:29:46,379 --> 00:29:49,779 country, different er different parts of the globe, different time zones, 455 00:29:49,779 --> 00:29:52,519 different stages in their lives, and all those different sorts of things. 456 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,990 Because I think in part, they have to hear what everyone has to say. 457 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,230 And they have to be able to respond thoughtfully and constructively 458 00:30:03,500 --> 00:30:07,050 to the diversity of viewpoints that they share with one another. 459 00:30:07,790 --> 00:30:11,560 I know that was a roundabout way to get back to your point, but I see it play 460 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,679 out time and time again, and I'm hoping that that'll have a ripple effect. 461 00:30:16,130 --> 00:30:21,630 And improve, um, some of those challenges we now have with, like you said, 462 00:30:21,670 --> 00:30:26,090 discourse and tribalism, all of those different things that have emerged. 463 00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:31,190 I think it's a, it's an amazing observation. 464 00:30:31,539 --> 00:30:37,210 I think that the, this idea that just providing time to think and 465 00:30:37,210 --> 00:30:43,640 reflect is something that, um, Especially in the Western culture 466 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,970 is not celebrated very much. 467 00:30:45,980 --> 00:30:49,560 I mean, people start to now do a little bit of like, you should meditate 468 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,320 and, you know, you know, stay in the moment and all this kind of stuff. 469 00:30:54,350 --> 00:30:55,609 But, um. 470 00:30:56,170 --> 00:31:01,850 If you look at our calendars, our schedules, our, what goes on to a regular, 471 00:31:01,890 --> 00:31:08,350 I mean, your, your, your eight year old, I'm guessing that, you know, their lives 472 00:31:08,350 --> 00:31:10,420 are, you know, in school is packed. 473 00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:13,220 You know, one thing turned, another turned, mine are, right? 474 00:31:15,345 --> 00:31:21,925 And there is an ever never ending amount of content that, you know, that people 475 00:31:21,925 --> 00:31:23,665 are trying to shut down their throats. 476 00:31:24,155 --> 00:31:28,445 Um, and, um, and it comes from every direction. 477 00:31:29,195 --> 00:31:35,174 And that this idea of being able to just taking a, you know, the time and just 478 00:31:35,174 --> 00:31:38,405 kind of be like, you know, I'm going to compose and feel this for a little bit. 479 00:31:38,485 --> 00:31:39,895 I may disagree with it, but. 480 00:31:40,375 --> 00:31:44,335 Let me really feel whether I actually disagree or do I just not feel comfortable 481 00:31:44,335 --> 00:31:47,125 to actually digest it a little bit. 482 00:31:47,785 --> 00:31:50,325 And then I realize why I disagree with it. 483 00:31:51,124 --> 00:31:54,125 And may not even be for the reason I thought it was going to be. 484 00:31:54,374 --> 00:31:56,274 Maybe I'm not even mad about it at all. 485 00:31:56,285 --> 00:31:58,314 Maybe I'm just like, I just realized I learned something. 486 00:31:58,645 --> 00:31:59,705 Exactly. 487 00:31:59,805 --> 00:32:00,195 Yeah. 488 00:32:00,295 --> 00:32:06,675 And all of this, the ability to, ability to learn to how to disagree 489 00:32:06,675 --> 00:32:14,615 with someone and And, uh, but, but, but to me, there's also this taking 490 00:32:14,615 --> 00:32:22,585 away part of the, the current, um, I think you, you used the word combative 491 00:32:22,705 --> 00:32:30,594 and I really feel that I think there's almost like a, a sense of the activity 492 00:32:30,595 --> 00:32:32,045 that we engage in, I have to win it. 493 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,030 There wasn't even a competition, right? 494 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,340 It wasn't even a competition. 495 00:32:38,950 --> 00:32:39,720 I have to win it. 496 00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:43,010 I have to beat the other person, right? 497 00:32:43,470 --> 00:32:47,709 But instead in your situations where they can be like, you have a week, 498 00:32:48,670 --> 00:32:52,739 together we're going to construct something that will benefit all of us. 499 00:32:54,060 --> 00:32:54,400 Right. 500 00:32:54,590 --> 00:32:58,290 That's a, that, they, they're all going to win. 501 00:32:58,900 --> 00:33:02,390 So it wasn't a, it wasn't like, I'm going to beat you. 502 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:02,920 Right. 503 00:33:03,180 --> 00:33:03,660 Right. 504 00:33:03,749 --> 00:33:04,209 Yeah. 505 00:33:04,570 --> 00:33:04,860 Yeah. 506 00:33:04,860 --> 00:33:07,949 And you know, and I think I, I could not agree with you more. 507 00:33:07,949 --> 00:33:12,599 And, and again, I see that play out so many times and I think also one of the 508 00:33:12,609 --> 00:33:20,325 benefits of the MLA program in that it isn't highly specialized and there isn't 509 00:33:20,435 --> 00:33:26,765 a particular professional goal posts that everyone is the, they're not all 510 00:33:26,765 --> 00:33:33,385 working toward the same, uh, outcome or benefit of doing the MLA program aside 511 00:33:33,385 --> 00:33:38,615 from personal, the personal enrichment angle, um, which then means they're not 512 00:33:38,745 --> 00:33:45,340 competing in an environment of scarcity in the way that Even other really healthy 513 00:33:45,340 --> 00:33:49,820 academic environments, sometimes as you get closer and closer to graduation 514 00:33:50,140 --> 00:33:54,839 people realize, well, we're all, we've all been trained to go into the same field. 515 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,040 We're all looking for positions, you know, we all want the same jobs. 516 00:33:59,309 --> 00:34:00,079 Who's getting them? 517 00:34:00,090 --> 00:34:00,750 Who isn't? 518 00:34:00,750 --> 00:34:01,940 Where are you in your journey? 519 00:34:01,940 --> 00:34:02,470 That sort of thing. 520 00:34:02,780 --> 00:34:10,570 In a program like mine, which doesn't have That specific professional outcome at the 521 00:34:10,610 --> 00:34:13,530 end means that you're absolutely right. 522 00:34:13,530 --> 00:34:17,910 It removes layers of that competitive environment as well. 523 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:23,240 They, like you said, everyone wins and it's constructed in a way in which 524 00:34:23,570 --> 00:34:28,090 there's no, there's nothing else at stake. 525 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:33,550 Except for doing the work well and approaching it with an open 526 00:34:33,550 --> 00:34:37,630 mind and a genuine willingness to learn from one another, right? 527 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:42,850 And in that kind of context, there's plenty of room at the table 528 00:34:43,059 --> 00:34:46,499 for everyone to contribute and everyone to get something out of it. 529 00:34:46,659 --> 00:34:50,070 And there's, you know, and of course, I'm not trying to downplay the fact 530 00:34:50,070 --> 00:34:54,555 that our students also have very real pressures and goals and Professional 531 00:34:54,805 --> 00:34:57,245 visions that they have for themselves that they're working toward. 532 00:34:57,245 --> 00:35:00,505 I'm not at all trying to say that that's not a reality of their experience. 533 00:35:00,505 --> 00:35:01,615 Of course that's present. 534 00:35:02,074 --> 00:35:06,694 But it's not at the cost of the other members of the program, right? 535 00:35:06,694 --> 00:35:10,014 It's not, it's not set within those parameters. 536 00:35:10,014 --> 00:35:13,355 And I, I think that that also helps to alleviate some of that 537 00:35:13,355 --> 00:35:15,365 feeling among the students too. 538 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:18,550 Yeah, I love that. 539 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:26,809 Um, as you were talking about, um, you know, that your students have, um, you 540 00:35:26,809 --> 00:35:33,599 know, they go on to do incredible things, they, they have great aspiration, um, I, I 541 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:39,410 wanted to actually talk a little bit about this idea of, um People's thinking about, 542 00:35:39,420 --> 00:35:43,440 you know, sort of professional specialists versus like a professional generalist. 543 00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:52,319 Um, I, I think that there is a, uh, there, there, I feel like there's 544 00:35:52,510 --> 00:35:59,369 got to be so much, um, inaccurate way of us thinking about, you know, like 545 00:35:59,460 --> 00:36:05,060 what, what it means to get that higher education degree, potentially getting 546 00:36:05,060 --> 00:36:09,690 into loans, maybe getting, some of them maybe getting scholarships and whatnot. 547 00:36:10,030 --> 00:36:14,260 The idea, though, that they are gonna, you know, go and get a degree 548 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:20,479 in, actually, people attack liberal arts education, I should know. 549 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,599 Um, you're, you're, you're spending, you know, your, especially on 550 00:36:24,610 --> 00:36:26,029 the undergraduate level, right? 551 00:36:26,540 --> 00:36:31,079 You're spending your college years, you know, not learning a sellable 552 00:36:31,079 --> 00:36:38,369 skill, a, a, a, um, something that you can, you know, you can bank on. 553 00:36:38,460 --> 00:36:38,810 Is it possible? 554 00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:45,390 Which I think you and I could categorically say that it's untrue, 555 00:36:46,140 --> 00:36:52,380 but let's break this down, you know, but, but, but the, like, how would 556 00:36:52,380 --> 00:36:54,210 you, how would you react to that? 557 00:36:54,210 --> 00:36:55,879 Yeah. 558 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,750 You know, I, I have a number of different ways in which I respond to that. 559 00:37:00,750 --> 00:37:04,950 You know, of course, as you know, too, there are, um, a number of organizations 560 00:37:04,950 --> 00:37:11,515 out there That do the, the in depth research, you know, like AAC&U has 561 00:37:11,515 --> 00:37:13,455 a number of those reports available. 562 00:37:13,455 --> 00:37:18,704 I think Georgetown did one recently, um, that, that looks at the actual 563 00:37:18,705 --> 00:37:24,054 facts around individuals with liberal arts education and, and the reality 564 00:37:24,054 --> 00:37:30,405 is that the economic, the negative economic impact that people claim in 565 00:37:30,405 --> 00:37:32,315 the kind of just general discourse. 566 00:37:32,455 --> 00:37:35,775 actually isn't what you see play out. 567 00:37:35,845 --> 00:37:37,025 Um, that's not my world. 568 00:37:37,045 --> 00:37:38,955 I'm, that's not the kind of research I do. 569 00:37:38,955 --> 00:37:41,674 So I, I can't speak to it in depth, but I've certainly read it 570 00:37:41,675 --> 00:37:42,884 and I share it with my students. 571 00:37:42,884 --> 00:37:48,125 And time and time again, especially in terms of the duration of one's career, 572 00:37:48,345 --> 00:37:53,864 what it shows is that individuals with a liberal arts degree have a longevity to 573 00:37:53,864 --> 00:37:58,854 their careers, even if the specific work that they're doing might shift or change. 574 00:37:59,044 --> 00:38:02,165 But it also shows if my, if I'm remembering the research correctly. 575 00:38:02,570 --> 00:38:08,930 Um, uh, uh, greater propensity for, I guess I should say, uh, stepping 576 00:38:08,930 --> 00:38:10,460 into leadership roles, right? 577 00:38:10,460 --> 00:38:13,500 And, and there are some very real reasons why. 578 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,420 And I'm not saying that it's the only pathway. 579 00:38:15,420 --> 00:38:16,950 I want to make sure that's very clear. 580 00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:18,679 Just like we were talking about before. 581 00:38:18,730 --> 00:38:20,059 I'm not interested. 582 00:38:20,495 --> 00:38:25,295 In it being a match where, you know, it's one versus the other, liberal arts versus 583 00:38:25,295 --> 00:38:29,225 a highly professional, you know, there are many different pathways for people to find 584 00:38:29,225 --> 00:38:33,015 fulfillment, to find happiness, to find their sense of self, and that's great. 585 00:38:33,025 --> 00:38:33,575 Good for them. 586 00:38:33,975 --> 00:38:37,354 But for a good number of people who pursue liberal arts 587 00:38:37,354 --> 00:38:40,554 degrees, they end up developing. 588 00:38:41,305 --> 00:38:52,185 Certain abilities to analyze, critique, respond to, adapt, innovate, lead that 589 00:38:52,385 --> 00:38:57,655 serves them well in whatever professional pathway or environment they choose. 590 00:38:58,065 --> 00:39:03,894 And it also tends to be the case that they have a little bit more flexibility. 591 00:39:04,170 --> 00:39:09,690 In terms of how they understand their pathway moving, right, because it 592 00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:13,689 hasn't already been spelled out for them that if you do this, you're 593 00:39:13,689 --> 00:39:16,269 guaranteed a job doing this next thing. 594 00:39:16,300 --> 00:39:19,080 And then from there, the stepping stones go in this following. 595 00:39:19,750 --> 00:39:24,969 Because if, if you have pursued a liberal arts degree, there is an understanding 596 00:39:24,979 --> 00:39:29,340 that you're going to have to figure out how what you have to offer. 597 00:39:29,660 --> 00:39:33,540 Fits within what's available all around us and then make that case 598 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,180 for yourself and how you do that and then work your way through. 599 00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:37,400 Right? 600 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:42,459 So, there's more work that goes into crafting that pathway than the ones 601 00:39:42,460 --> 00:39:47,619 where maybe it's paved a little bit more smoothly for them, but that does tend 602 00:39:47,619 --> 00:39:54,175 to lend them or provide them with some benefits when there are disruptions to 603 00:39:54,175 --> 00:39:58,155 the economic environment and there are disruptions to the workforce and, and 604 00:39:58,155 --> 00:40:03,155 what careers can be and I, and I, and I'm saying this drawing from my own 605 00:40:03,155 --> 00:40:07,235 personal experiences and the networks of people I know, but also from talking 606 00:40:07,235 --> 00:40:08,744 with students who are in my program. 607 00:40:08,744 --> 00:40:15,355 So, I should clarify that our program has anyone from recent college graduates 608 00:40:15,355 --> 00:40:16,945 to people who are in their mid 80s. 609 00:40:17,290 --> 00:40:22,750 We have students who have, um, highly specialized degrees. 610 00:40:22,750 --> 00:40:28,700 We have doctors, lawyers, judges, finance individuals, you know, CEOs, 611 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,169 MBAs, all of those sorts of things who have gone on and had those careers. 612 00:40:33,169 --> 00:40:34,320 And we also have people. 613 00:40:34,655 --> 00:40:39,255 Who are educators, who are social workers, who work with students in 614 00:40:39,255 --> 00:40:43,524 admissions offices, and, and we have artists, and we have creators, and, and 615 00:40:43,524 --> 00:40:49,335 people who, um, you know, engage with the world in, in much different ways 616 00:40:49,335 --> 00:40:52,114 than the other students, and everything in between, you can, you can imagine. 617 00:40:52,574 --> 00:40:57,725 And talking with them about Why they're drawn to this program and 618 00:40:57,845 --> 00:41:01,095 how they see it connecting with their lives and those kinds of things. 619 00:41:01,825 --> 00:41:05,115 What they usually tend to say it's it's a few different things. 620 00:41:05,125 --> 00:41:12,525 One is they felt that their world what in whatever career or pathway that they're 621 00:41:12,525 --> 00:41:16,924 on had become too narrowed where they were having the same conversations with 622 00:41:16,924 --> 00:41:22,385 the same kinds of people and they weren't You, I don't know, to use a metaphor, 623 00:41:22,385 --> 00:41:24,125 drawing from a deep enough well, right? 624 00:41:24,125 --> 00:41:28,615 They weren't feeling as though, like their, their life had just become 625 00:41:28,615 --> 00:41:33,815 smaller and smaller and smaller, and they knew that there was more going on. 626 00:41:33,824 --> 00:41:35,454 There are more conversations to be had. 627 00:41:35,454 --> 00:41:36,994 There are more perspectives to hear. 628 00:41:36,995 --> 00:41:39,714 And so they come to a program like this. 629 00:41:40,180 --> 00:41:46,090 To do that, hopefully also then to bring that back into those worlds that 630 00:41:46,090 --> 00:41:51,420 they felt were narrow or hopefully to find communities of people who also 631 00:41:51,420 --> 00:41:56,349 push back against that kind of narrow worldview and also like them share an 632 00:41:56,350 --> 00:42:00,390 affinity for the kinds of questions in intellectual work that we do. 633 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,280 I also hear from students that some of them, because they already are in 634 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:12,095 a space, In which people are drawing from a much broader array of ideas 635 00:42:12,145 --> 00:42:16,025 and texts and influences and all those sorts of things and what they had in 636 00:42:16,025 --> 00:42:22,055 their own education, and they want to pursue this degree to be able to become 637 00:42:22,055 --> 00:42:23,864 a part of those conversations, right? 638 00:42:23,865 --> 00:42:28,915 Like, they didn't see themselves as having The intellectual or cultural capital to 639 00:42:28,915 --> 00:42:33,345 fully engage before and they see this as a way of being able to bring them up 640 00:42:33,375 --> 00:42:37,415 to speed so that they can dive in and navigate those spaces with confidence. 641 00:42:37,855 --> 00:42:40,424 And, you know, and you can imagine again that there are 642 00:42:40,425 --> 00:42:41,524 different iterations from there. 643 00:42:41,525 --> 00:42:48,194 There's no one single model or pathway that goes back to this 644 00:42:48,294 --> 00:42:53,484 point, though, that it doesn't really matter if you're an engineer. 645 00:42:53,870 --> 00:43:01,450 Or a teacher, or a doctor, or a lawyer, or what have you, there are worthwhile 646 00:43:01,460 --> 00:43:07,189 ways of approaching how you think about the world, the, the, the way you go 647 00:43:07,189 --> 00:43:11,319 about trying to make meaning of it and understand it and learn from what others 648 00:43:11,319 --> 00:43:13,949 have said and done that can be useful. 649 00:43:14,679 --> 00:43:20,690 And that's why these critiques about the Alleged uselessness of a liberal arts 650 00:43:20,690 --> 00:43:25,450 education has always been perplexing to me because first of all, one of the 651 00:43:25,450 --> 00:43:28,950 things a liberal arts education does is explore what it means to be human. 652 00:43:28,950 --> 00:43:34,600 And insofar as all of us are human beings, it is deeply and profoundly relevant to us 653 00:43:34,650 --> 00:43:36,869 to understand what it means to be human. 654 00:43:37,620 --> 00:43:42,430 The, the, the relevance and the use of it is inherently apparent to me, 655 00:43:42,430 --> 00:43:45,789 but fine, I understand for others, you know, maybe they, I don't know, 656 00:43:45,790 --> 00:43:48,310 maybe they want to seek that out through other sources and that's fine. 657 00:43:48,690 --> 00:43:53,359 But then going back to these other things about, okay, fine, even if, and I 658 00:43:53,359 --> 00:43:57,060 acknowledge as a philosopher, I'm really interested in concepts of being and, 659 00:43:57,100 --> 00:43:58,580 and maybe for some people they're not. 660 00:43:58,580 --> 00:43:59,720 So maybe being human. 661 00:44:00,300 --> 00:44:04,940 isn't as interesting to them, but we still have to interact with one another. 662 00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:07,730 We still have to find ways to communicate with one another, 663 00:44:07,730 --> 00:44:09,140 to understand one another. 664 00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:12,910 If, if you're in any kind of professional environment that exists 665 00:44:12,940 --> 00:44:17,320 on a global level, I mean, I've had to work overseas as an expat before. 666 00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:21,790 I've had to learn what it is to be in cultures that are completely different 667 00:44:21,790 --> 00:44:23,630 from my own background and experiences. 668 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:30,755 And I had to learn how Respond authentically and with an 669 00:44:30,765 --> 00:44:34,055 open mind and respectfully and learn from these individuals. 670 00:44:34,055 --> 00:44:38,725 And I think that draws from the foundation that I had in the liberal arts. 671 00:44:39,275 --> 00:44:45,455 Of recognizing that there are different ways in which we engage with one another 672 00:44:45,455 --> 00:44:48,784 and there are different histories that have been told and different forms of 673 00:44:48,785 --> 00:44:51,505 expression and creativity and on and on. 674 00:44:52,665 --> 00:44:54,775 This concludes part one of our conversation. 675 00:44:55,195 --> 00:44:58,825 To hear part two, be sure to subscribe to Digication Scholars 676 00:44:58,835 --> 00:45:03,905 Conversations on YouTube, iTunes, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. 677 00:45:04,895 --> 00:45:08,625 Digication Scholars Conversations is brought to you by Digication, 678 00:45:08,925 --> 00:45:12,985 a technology platform powering the most innovative ePortfolio programs 679 00:45:13,035 --> 00:45:14,785 in K 12 and higher education. 680 00:45:15,605 --> 00:45:18,645 Our website can be found at digication.com. 681 00:45:18,665 --> 00:45:21,895 If you enjoyed today's conversation, please like, 682 00:45:22,044 --> 00:45:23,805 subscribe, and share with a friend. 683 00:45:24,324 --> 00:45:25,274 Thanks for tuning in.