WEBVTT 00:00:02.766 --> 00:00:06.266 Matt Abrahams: To truly hone and master a skill, we have to take 00:00:06.266 --> 00:00:08.486 the time to learn from experts. 00:00:09.026 --> 00:00:12.355 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:12.356 --> 00:00:13.985 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:14.376 --> 00:00:17.495 Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:18.186 --> 00:00:20.255 Today, I look forward to chatting with David Rogier. 00:00:20.496 --> 00:00:24.156 David is the founder and CEO of MasterClass, the streaming platform 00:00:24.345 --> 00:00:27.765 that makes it possible for anyone to learn from the world's best. 00:00:28.256 --> 00:00:33.155 David is passionate about democratizing access to genius-level knowledge. 00:00:33.825 --> 00:00:36.116 Well, David, thank you so much for joining me. 00:00:36.116 --> 00:00:37.916 I'm really excited for our conversation. 00:00:38.075 --> 00:00:38.775 Shall we get started? 00:00:38.806 --> 00:00:39.246 David Rogier: Let's do it. 00:00:39.615 --> 00:00:43.465 Matt Abrahams: So to begin, I am a avid participant and student of 00:00:43.466 --> 00:00:47.296 Masterclass, and thanks to you and your team, I'm honored that I have 00:00:47.635 --> 00:00:51.076 a Masterclass certifications course coming out on strategic communication. 00:00:51.126 --> 00:00:52.146 And so thank you for that. 00:00:52.146 --> 00:00:55.145 It was a lot of fun, and I hope everybody gets a lot of value out of it. 00:00:55.505 --> 00:00:58.035 Like me, you are very passionate about education. 00:00:58.086 --> 00:01:00.915 I'd like to start by asking you what motivates you to help 00:01:00.915 --> 00:01:02.295 others learn and develop skills? 00:01:02.805 --> 00:01:07.765 David Rogier: I was raised in part by my grandmother, and my grandmother 00:01:07.815 --> 00:01:11.966 escaped the Holocaust, and I think one of the things that she really 00:01:11.966 --> 00:01:16.165 instilled in me, that education's the only thing that someone can't 00:01:16.175 --> 00:01:17.495 take away from somebody else. 00:01:18.220 --> 00:01:21.560 And I think I really internalized that at a very young age. 00:01:21.880 --> 00:01:25.820 That definitely drove me to create MasterClass, but also I think 00:01:25.870 --> 00:01:28.470 probably fueled my zest for learning. 00:01:28.869 --> 00:01:29.349 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:01:29.390 --> 00:01:32.360 And you've brought that learning to lots and lots of people. 00:01:32.759 --> 00:01:36.800 In the early days of MasterClass, uh, you had to convince world-class 00:01:36.809 --> 00:01:40.030 talent to trust you, a small startup. 00:01:40.389 --> 00:01:45.180 How did you think about pitching what you were doing to people of that nature? 00:01:45.670 --> 00:01:49.779 David Rogier: I assumed that it was gonna function the same 00:01:49.780 --> 00:01:51.179 way as in the business world. 00:01:51.550 --> 00:01:55.009 In the business world, if you know somebody in common with somebody else, 00:01:55.009 --> 00:01:58.440 the person makes an introduction, you will usually talk to them. 00:01:58.739 --> 00:02:00.000 It's not how it works in the entertainment industry. 00:02:00.009 --> 00:02:01.410 In fact, it's designed to do the opposite. 00:02:01.789 --> 00:02:06.179 Every celebrity has four to five people whose job it is, 00:02:06.190 --> 00:02:08.329 is to not let you do that. 00:02:08.620 --> 00:02:13.719 So every celebrity has an agent, a manager, a PR person, sometimes a 00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:16.089 financial advisor, and usually a spouse. 00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:20.089 Now, of those five people, only one of them has actual 00:02:20.129 --> 00:02:21.109 influence over that person. 00:02:21.489 --> 00:02:24.489 But the job of the other four is to convince you that it's them. 00:02:24.929 --> 00:02:25.789 But it's not. 00:02:25.940 --> 00:02:26.989 It's only one of them. 00:02:27.700 --> 00:02:29.960 And if you go to the wrong person, you're gonna get a fast no. 00:02:30.480 --> 00:02:33.449 So part of the craft was to just learn that. 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:38.569 Two was then to figure out who is that one of the five, and then how 00:02:38.569 --> 00:02:40.309 do I pitch that one of the five? 00:02:40.809 --> 00:02:44.429 And what I had to learn was that I have to get them to like me and trust me. 00:02:44.940 --> 00:02:47.010 And I can do that in a few ways. 00:02:47.349 --> 00:02:51.639 I could associate and attach myself to people on the project 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:53.919 and bring them in who they trust. 00:02:54.129 --> 00:02:58.499 So these were film directors they'd already worked with before, or film 00:02:58.499 --> 00:02:59.999 directors that had won an Oscar before. 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:02.259 The thing about their fear is like, is this person going to look bad? 00:03:02.260 --> 00:03:03.729 And so how do you drop that risk? 00:03:04.270 --> 00:03:07.030 Two was you have to get them to actually like you and trust you. 00:03:07.530 --> 00:03:09.610 And I had to learn the craft of that. 00:03:09.830 --> 00:03:15.120 And I think I walked into those early rooms thinking, "I'm pretty special. 00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:18.320 I have a master's degree from Stanford. 00:03:18.540 --> 00:03:20.650 My mom says I'm amazing. 00:03:21.170 --> 00:03:25.279 This idea is going to change the world of education." People don't care about that. 00:03:25.690 --> 00:03:27.119 People care about themselves. 00:03:27.590 --> 00:03:33.949 And so it was much more effective for me to ask them questions, a lot of questions. 00:03:34.500 --> 00:03:36.759 And when somebody asks you questions about things that you want to 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:39.040 talk about, you like them more. 00:03:39.329 --> 00:03:42.009 Now, I think there's a craft to what questions you ask. 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:44.840 You have to do it something that you're actually interested in, because 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:46.300 otherwise people feel that instantly. 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:49.569 So I'm glad to dive more into that, but I think there is a craft to 00:03:49.569 --> 00:03:53.230 how to pitch, and a lot of that is relationship building for this. 00:03:53.529 --> 00:03:55.359 Matt Abrahams: So many rich things there that you talked about. 00:03:55.369 --> 00:03:59.170 First, you have to start by really appreciating the circumstance 00:03:59.170 --> 00:04:01.689 and those who have access and influence to the people that you're 00:04:01.689 --> 00:04:03.629 trying to persuade or motivate. 00:04:03.819 --> 00:04:07.639 You have to think about how you approach them. 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:12.659 In your case, it was about de-risking the reputation and really 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.909 coming from a place of authentic curiosity to get them talking. 00:04:16.090 --> 00:04:18.579 And I think we can all benefit from that in anything we're pitching 00:04:18.590 --> 00:04:21.410 or in any relationship, and you've been quite successful at it. 00:04:21.869 --> 00:04:27.229 Having been in the chair for a MasterClass certificates, I have witnessed 00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:29.149 firsthand the production quality. 00:04:29.459 --> 00:04:32.379 That seems to be very important to you and to your team to make sure that it 00:04:32.450 --> 00:04:34.529 really has an aesthetic and a look. 00:04:34.909 --> 00:04:38.889 Talk to me about where that comes from and how those listening who aren't 00:04:38.889 --> 00:04:42.489 going to have access to the crews and the expertise that you have, how 00:04:42.490 --> 00:04:47.829 important is it to really think through the visuals, the experience, even 00:04:47.829 --> 00:04:51.200 for those of us who are just doing virtual calls and video conferencing? 00:04:51.630 --> 00:04:56.830 David Rogier: Part of our success is that our classes do not look like a class. 00:04:57.544 --> 00:04:59.764 They look like a Netflix movie. 00:05:00.294 --> 00:05:04.524 Now, it's not just the look, it's also then the production value, how engaging 00:05:04.524 --> 00:05:05.794 it is, and all those other things. 00:05:06.274 --> 00:05:11.034 I had filmed some stuff on my own for test shoots, and they looked horrible. 00:05:11.654 --> 00:05:15.543 And so we went to our friends and people we knew, and one of the 00:05:15.544 --> 00:05:19.474 first people we went to was actually a professor here at Stanford. 00:05:19.673 --> 00:05:21.823 His name is Professor Bill Guttentag. 00:05:21.893 --> 00:05:23.913 He's, he's an Oscar-winning film director. 00:05:24.204 --> 00:05:27.064 And I, I got introduced to him, and I was like, "Hey, I'm really stuck. 00:05:27.323 --> 00:05:29.584 Our stuff looks bad." You know, I was like, "Any advice? 00:05:29.584 --> 00:05:30.123 What types of people? 00:05:30.123 --> 00:05:33.304 What type of gear?" And he's like, "You're not gonna ask me to shoot?" 00:05:33.304 --> 00:05:34.634 I'm like, "You're willing to shoot it?" 00:05:35.103 --> 00:05:37.893 He's like, "Yeah, sounds awesome." So Bill shot a bunch of our first 00:05:37.893 --> 00:05:40.684 classes, and that really upleveled us. 00:05:41.053 --> 00:05:44.033 The other person was Jay Roach, who had a really big impact on that too, and 00:05:44.033 --> 00:05:45.803 also shot some of our first few classes. 00:05:46.323 --> 00:05:48.813 I think that did a couple things. 00:05:48.814 --> 00:05:53.353 One, it achieved what we wanted to on the engagement side and how good it looked. 00:05:53.673 --> 00:05:57.383 Two, it brought down the risk for the instructors, 'cause if Bill Guttentag 00:05:57.384 --> 00:06:01.044 and Jay Roach are gonna film this, I've seen their stuff, it's really good. 00:06:01.333 --> 00:06:02.744 Okay, I know I'm gonna look pretty good. 00:06:03.233 --> 00:06:07.645 So if you're at home doing this, I think, think a lot about what 00:06:07.676 --> 00:06:09.606 is the form factor supposed to be. 00:06:09.866 --> 00:06:15.236 So for example, if it's live Zoom calls that you're doing, then, like, 00:06:15.246 --> 00:06:16.436 it should look like a Zoom call. 00:06:16.905 --> 00:06:20.895 But I think there's opportunities to make that look good, and I think 00:06:20.916 --> 00:06:22.775 some aren't that expensive to do. 00:06:23.135 --> 00:06:29.585 And I think one of the best ways to figure that out is look at two or three films or 00:06:29.585 --> 00:06:36.055 TV shows or YouTube things that you think look really good, and break down yourself, 00:06:36.115 --> 00:06:39.696 or find a friend who knows more than you, break down how did they make that. 00:06:40.015 --> 00:06:44.695 And oftentimes you're gonna be like, "Oh, it's the location's actually more 00:06:44.695 --> 00:06:50.585 important than I thought." 'Cause the location adds depth, lighting, everything. 00:06:50.585 --> 00:06:53.726 So you're like, "You know what? Maybe I should just invest in where I shoot 00:06:53.726 --> 00:06:57.175 and the time of day." And you're gonna start to see things like that. 00:06:57.186 --> 00:06:59.275 That's not that expensive, but that actually has a huge impact. 00:06:59.736 --> 00:07:02.075 Matt Abrahams: Really important point I wanna put an exclamation point on, 00:07:02.075 --> 00:07:06.465 which is think about the environment in which you present yourself, and 00:07:06.465 --> 00:07:11.385 second, look at and observe others that you enjoy, that you think add value, 00:07:11.385 --> 00:07:13.005 and then explore how they do that. 00:07:13.035 --> 00:07:16.025 And like you said, it's not that expensive, but it can 00:07:16.025 --> 00:07:17.126 make a tremendous difference. 00:07:17.525 --> 00:07:20.295 The content is important, but the experience of the 00:07:20.296 --> 00:07:21.675 content is equally important. 00:07:21.915 --> 00:07:22.765 I really like that. 00:07:23.235 --> 00:07:28.185 As a leader, you lead people who are very technical, very content specific, 00:07:28.186 --> 00:07:30.765 but also others who are very creative. 00:07:31.105 --> 00:07:35.716 That can be hard in terms of management and leadership style to lead people 00:07:35.716 --> 00:07:39.475 whose goal is the creative and those who are the business and more technical. 00:07:39.916 --> 00:07:43.425 Any advice and guidance to our listeners who find themselves in a similar role? 00:07:43.425 --> 00:07:45.775 What helps you manage those different types of people? 00:07:46.265 --> 00:07:47.385 David Rogier: You have to adapt. 00:07:47.796 --> 00:07:50.445 I think it helps to go deep with some of them. 00:07:50.575 --> 00:07:54.575 So if you're working with folks in film, sit in the edit bays with them. 00:07:54.915 --> 00:07:57.395 Watch as sound is mixed. 00:07:57.585 --> 00:08:01.176 Get deep so that you know each step of it and what it takes. 00:08:01.605 --> 00:08:05.115 In the same way, if it's engineering or marketing or whatever, I have 00:08:05.116 --> 00:08:06.985 found that my style has to change. 00:08:07.495 --> 00:08:12.496 So on the content side, creatives respond much stronger to a 00:08:12.496 --> 00:08:15.036 note that is a high-level note. 00:08:15.545 --> 00:08:20.514 "Hey, in, in this portion I find my attention is starting to wane. 00:08:20.994 --> 00:08:23.214 You know, like, why is that? 00:08:23.264 --> 00:08:27.183 Or what are we able to do about it?" And they need just high-level 00:08:27.183 --> 00:08:30.904 note, and it's not you solving it for them, it's just the observation. 00:08:31.414 --> 00:08:35.663 I found, though, like, on the marketing side or on the product 00:08:35.664 --> 00:08:38.594 side, folks like more specific notes. 00:08:38.844 --> 00:08:42.693 If you're like, "You know, this page, I'm just not feeling to click," they're like, 00:08:43.153 --> 00:08:48.633 "What the hell does that mean?" Versus like, "Hey, the call to action, I think, 00:08:48.863 --> 00:08:52.914 isn't bold enough, isn't strong enough." Like, okay, yes, I can work on that. 00:08:53.013 --> 00:08:57.273 So I found that I have to change the altitude almost. 00:08:57.693 --> 00:09:00.933 Matt Abrahams: That agility all of us can develop, but it's really the 00:09:00.934 --> 00:09:04.573 sensitivity to what does this person or these type of people in these 00:09:04.574 --> 00:09:06.554 roles, what do they respond best to? 00:09:06.803 --> 00:09:11.983 And I really like this idea of giving feedback through questions and then 00:09:11.983 --> 00:09:16.333 also being able to get very specific to what your experience is and how 00:09:16.344 --> 00:09:18.593 that relates to perhaps others. 00:09:18.783 --> 00:09:21.203 David Rogier: And it's hard because, like, when I'm tired or frustrated, I 00:09:21.203 --> 00:09:24.453 just want to say, "Please change this to this and this to this." And I've done that 00:09:24.454 --> 00:09:30.324 before, and it's not nearly as effective 'cause the mental shortcut I'm taking is 00:09:30.324 --> 00:09:32.803 I know more than that person, and I don't. 00:09:32.994 --> 00:09:36.443 And so it feels good at the time and it's easier to do, but it 00:09:36.443 --> 00:09:37.983 usually ends up a worse result. 00:09:38.613 --> 00:09:41.703 Matt Abrahams: In the moment, it might feel like it's solving the situation 00:09:41.704 --> 00:09:44.563 or the problem, but in fact, it might be causing damage in the future. 00:09:44.564 --> 00:09:44.894 David Rogier: Yes. 00:09:45.283 --> 00:09:49.143 Matt Abrahams: I know this is a completely unfair question, but across 00:09:49.223 --> 00:09:52.843 the content that you have created and brought to the world, is there one area 00:09:52.844 --> 00:09:56.603 or one lesson that you've learned that has really profoundly impacted you? 00:09:57.033 --> 00:09:59.853 David Rogier: I mean, we have sat across from 300 of the best in the 00:09:59.853 --> 00:10:05.743 world, from Christina Aguilera to Steph Curry to Matt Abrahams, and I 00:10:05.783 --> 00:10:10.413 think I had this assumption that once you reach the top, you just chill. 00:10:11.126 --> 00:10:14.036 Like Christina can sing when she wants to, Steph can play how long he wants 00:10:14.036 --> 00:10:18.216 to, and that, that you're in a state where you can choose when to invest time 00:10:18.466 --> 00:10:20.386 and you don't need to invest that much. 00:10:20.666 --> 00:10:21.686 Boy, was I wrong. 00:10:22.286 --> 00:10:28.375 Every instructor, as we film on any cut, is asking us for notes. 00:10:28.975 --> 00:10:32.316 Once the class is done, we're in the testing phase, instructors want 00:10:32.445 --> 00:10:34.116 all the input they already gave. 00:10:34.406 --> 00:10:38.032 Once a class is live, most of them send us an email or call us and be 00:10:38.032 --> 00:10:40.676 like, "I want to change this. I think this is able to be improved." And I 00:10:40.676 --> 00:10:46.765 realize that if these masters are still continually trying to improve their 00:10:46.766 --> 00:10:49.085 own craft, I don't have any excuses. 00:10:49.575 --> 00:10:50.975 Like I gotta keep doing that. 00:10:51.246 --> 00:10:53.876 And so I think that was a lot of personal growth for me. 00:10:54.356 --> 00:10:56.705 Matt Abrahams: I think that's a wonderful lesson, that the people at the top 00:10:56.705 --> 00:11:00.815 of their game are still working and striving, and perhaps that's what helped 00:11:00.816 --> 00:11:02.125 them get to the top of their game. 00:11:02.555 --> 00:11:03.736 I'd like to get personal. 00:11:03.736 --> 00:11:05.146 You and I talked about this a little bit. 00:11:05.146 --> 00:11:06.575 So you have a stutter. 00:11:06.795 --> 00:11:08.625 It is something you've had for your whole life. 00:11:09.095 --> 00:11:11.875 What have you learned about communication through having a 00:11:11.875 --> 00:11:13.186 stutter, and what has it changed? 00:11:13.186 --> 00:11:17.356 And what advice would you give to people who might have some speech impediment, 00:11:17.516 --> 00:11:19.405 everything from an accent to a stutter? 00:11:20.046 --> 00:11:20.976 David Rogier: It was really hard as a kid. 00:11:21.176 --> 00:11:22.136 I mean, I was teased for it. 00:11:22.546 --> 00:11:27.676 I think teachers in school didn't know how to handle it, so some would not call on me 00:11:27.866 --> 00:11:32.716 'cause, you know, out of positive intent, but not wanting me to have to speak. 00:11:33.066 --> 00:11:36.376 When I was called on to read something, if you stutter, it's very difficult 00:11:36.616 --> 00:11:39.205 because one of the tools you use is you substitute words, and you can't 00:11:39.206 --> 00:11:40.006 do that when you read something. 00:11:40.446 --> 00:11:44.606 I think what it made me, throughout my life, is my empathy for people in 00:11:44.606 --> 00:11:46.116 expressing themselves is much higher. 00:11:46.446 --> 00:11:51.845 I think I'm much more aware of speech, and I told you, I think one of the things I 00:11:51.845 --> 00:11:58.595 started doing as a kid was watching people give speeches and just being more aware 00:11:58.595 --> 00:12:01.575 of the, of the mechanics that they use. 00:12:02.046 --> 00:12:04.055 So became, I became much more obsessed with it. 00:12:04.505 --> 00:12:09.415 I think my approach, I think my parents had a big impact on, was, you 00:12:09.415 --> 00:12:15.136 know, when I was a kid, my parents' approach was, "We expect you to talk 00:12:15.406 --> 00:12:19.885 and communicate. You can stutter, you stutter, but we don't expect you to let 00:12:19.886 --> 00:12:23.035 that block you from doing anything." And so when they had friends over, the 00:12:23.035 --> 00:12:26.335 expectation was I would sit with their friends and join them in conversation. 00:12:26.616 --> 00:12:29.555 And so I think their very much approach was, "I'm gonna give you a hug, but 00:12:29.556 --> 00:12:32.785 you just are gonna keep going." So I think that's probably part of my 00:12:32.796 --> 00:12:35.036 appreciation on the oratory side. 00:12:35.705 --> 00:12:38.866 Matt Abrahams: That notion of taking what you're dealt with and managing 00:12:38.866 --> 00:12:41.766 it, I think, is important for everybody, be it an accent, a stutter. 00:12:42.325 --> 00:12:44.795 I'm noticing a theme, David, across everything we've talked about. 00:12:44.805 --> 00:12:46.556 Tenacity plays a role. 00:12:46.915 --> 00:12:52.296 We talked about tenacity in pursuing getting people to sign up when you 00:12:52.296 --> 00:12:57.466 were just starting out, tenacity in the work that you admire and the masters 00:12:57.466 --> 00:13:00.785 you bring on, and tenacity in your own life to just keep going with your 00:13:00.785 --> 00:13:03.905 communication, and that's something that I think all of us can benefit from. 00:13:04.255 --> 00:13:07.355 And it will look different for all of us, but it's important. 00:13:07.645 --> 00:13:10.185 David Rogier: Yeah, I don't think life is worth to live without that. 00:13:10.415 --> 00:13:11.265 You have to work hard. 00:13:11.505 --> 00:13:12.925 And I think sometimes it surprises. 00:13:12.935 --> 00:13:16.745 Like, I remember I was in, in some group, we had an exercise where we would 00:13:16.755 --> 00:13:21.515 give people feedback on how they, how the person talks, and I was shocked. 00:13:21.705 --> 00:13:23.225 I got notes on my stutter. 00:13:23.476 --> 00:13:26.995 And what the group said, the effects were, it was the opposite 00:13:27.165 --> 00:13:27.749 of what I had in my head. 00:13:27.749 --> 00:13:32.115 In my head, makes me sound less smart, makes me not get the idea out, people 00:13:32.115 --> 00:13:35.765 get bored, the people get annoyed, people have the urge to say the word for you. 00:13:36.005 --> 00:13:38.145 And the feedback from the group was like, "Oh, that doesn't go through our 00:13:38.145 --> 00:13:40.535 head." I'm like, "What?" I'm like, "What does go through your head?" They're 00:13:40.535 --> 00:13:43.336 like, "Oh, I'm more endeared to you. 00:13:43.605 --> 00:13:45.445 Like, I'm seeing this is difficult for you. 00:13:45.615 --> 00:13:48.865 I'm more, like, attached to you." I'm like, "I'm sorry, what?" And it's just 00:13:48.906 --> 00:13:54.186 for 28 years of my life, I had this one story in my head, and that was not 00:13:54.186 --> 00:13:55.745 the story everybody else was having. 00:13:55.945 --> 00:13:58.166 And you're like, and I think that's true for so many of the 00:13:58.166 --> 00:13:59.465 things that we are insecure about. 00:14:00.005 --> 00:14:01.505 Matt Abrahams: What a lovely gift to get that. 00:14:01.785 --> 00:14:05.145 And perhaps there's a lesson in there for all of us to seek out feedback 00:14:05.145 --> 00:14:08.895 from trusted others who can help us check our assumptions, because you 00:14:08.895 --> 00:14:12.136 had an assumption going into this that was contrary to what you learned. 00:14:13.294 --> 00:14:15.414 This whole conversation has been fantastic, David. 00:14:15.424 --> 00:14:17.404 As you well know, I end with three questions. 00:14:17.404 --> 00:14:19.694 One I make up just for you, and two that I've been asking 00:14:19.694 --> 00:14:20.664 everybody for a long time. 00:14:20.664 --> 00:14:21.254 Are you up for that? 00:14:21.334 --> 00:14:21.884 David Rogier: Let's do it. 00:14:22.234 --> 00:14:23.313 Matt Abrahams: Another personal question. 00:14:23.324 --> 00:14:25.684 You and I talked on our way over to this conversation, that you 00:14:25.684 --> 00:14:27.084 and I are both martial artists. 00:14:27.493 --> 00:14:28.964 Tenacity is part of that as well. 00:14:29.223 --> 00:14:32.783 What draws you to the martial arts, and are there any lessons that you've learned? 00:14:32.823 --> 00:14:35.613 I, I've learned a lot of lessons for life in the dojo. 00:14:35.964 --> 00:14:38.124 I'm curious what draws you and what lessons? 00:14:38.583 --> 00:14:42.413 David Rogier: Part of what draws me in, I like it that for the hour, hour 00:14:42.413 --> 00:14:45.563 and a half I'm there, you can't think of anything else, 'cause otherwise 00:14:45.564 --> 00:14:46.744 you are gonna get choked out. 00:14:47.303 --> 00:14:51.743 I also, it makes me so much more aware of things I wasn't aware of. 00:14:52.223 --> 00:14:58.584 The angle of my wrist, the, how I'm shifting my, my weight. 00:14:59.123 --> 00:15:04.863 And there's an appreciation of craft and skill that was invisible to me before. 00:15:04.864 --> 00:15:07.614 I didn't even know, I never even thought of those things before. 00:15:07.884 --> 00:15:09.064 So there's appreciation there. 00:15:09.473 --> 00:15:13.913 There is a humility, because you get your butt kicked all the time. 00:15:14.353 --> 00:15:16.674 Matt Abrahams: There's nothing like the immediate feedback 00:15:16.674 --> 00:15:18.624 you get in a physical activity. 00:15:18.944 --> 00:15:20.583 There's no if, ands, and buts. 00:15:20.584 --> 00:15:22.493 You get the feedback, both good and bad. 00:15:22.944 --> 00:15:27.653 And I totally resonate when you say you become aware of things that you didn't 00:15:27.654 --> 00:15:29.444 even know that you didn't know you knew. 00:15:29.784 --> 00:15:33.483 And I totally appreciate that presence that it requires. 00:15:33.523 --> 00:15:37.063 And these are skills that anybody can find in any physical activity. 00:15:37.063 --> 00:15:39.883 It doesn't have to be grappling with somebody or throwing a kick or a punch. 00:15:39.883 --> 00:15:41.173 It could be walking in nature. 00:15:41.374 --> 00:15:42.793 But I really like that you see that. 00:15:43.512 --> 00:15:46.862 Question number two, who's a communicator that you admire and why? 00:15:47.262 --> 00:15:47.962 David Rogier: There are a lot. 00:15:48.252 --> 00:15:50.651 I'm gonna pick one that isn't as expected. 00:15:51.242 --> 00:15:53.281 Vintage Jesse Jackson. 00:15:53.702 --> 00:15:59.261 There's a speech he gave in 1984 when he was running to be the Democratic nominee 00:16:02.322 --> 00:16:06.551 for president, and he gave the speech in a church in Philadelphia. 00:16:07.082 --> 00:16:08.681 The speech is remarkable. 00:16:09.092 --> 00:16:10.411 Matt Abrahams: Amazing example. 00:16:10.661 --> 00:16:13.071 He's clearly a, a, an amazing communicator. 00:16:13.681 --> 00:16:14.731 Final question, David. 00:16:14.921 --> 00:16:19.252 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:16:19.691 --> 00:16:23.801 David Rogier: I think you've got to figure out, one is, what does that 00:16:23.801 --> 00:16:26.012 person actually want and need right now? 00:16:26.531 --> 00:16:28.111 This is another part of your, of yours. 00:16:28.481 --> 00:16:33.321 Then the ability to change and adapt that on the fly when you see they've done it. 00:16:33.702 --> 00:16:36.771 And then keeping, like, the eyes on the prize. 00:16:37.121 --> 00:16:42.081 What I mean by this is you might be in a negotiation where somebody 00:16:42.131 --> 00:16:46.002 just needs to vent, and when they vent, they're gonna say things that 00:16:46.002 --> 00:16:47.711 you probably do not agree with. 00:16:48.191 --> 00:16:52.151 But if your eye's on the prize and the prize is to close a deal, you don't need 00:16:52.262 --> 00:16:53.801 to argue about each of those things. 00:16:54.411 --> 00:16:56.491 You just let the person talk. 00:16:57.031 --> 00:17:00.372 You say you've hear, you heard them, and you try to figure 00:17:00.372 --> 00:17:01.802 out how to move things along. 00:17:02.002 --> 00:17:04.341 But it's very easy to be like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't agree 00:17:04.341 --> 00:17:07.511 to parts two, eight, and twelve that you just said." But doing that 00:17:07.511 --> 00:17:08.422 isn't gonna actually solve anything. 00:17:08.981 --> 00:17:09.981 Matt Abrahams: So it's about audience. 00:17:09.981 --> 00:17:11.291 Make sure you understand what they need. 00:17:11.301 --> 00:17:11.321 Yeah. 00:17:11.332 --> 00:17:15.511 It's about agility to adjust to what happens and then that focus on what 00:17:15.511 --> 00:17:18.831 your ultimate goal is, regardless of some of the hiccups and backwards 00:17:18.831 --> 00:17:20.051 steps that happen along the way. 00:17:21.111 --> 00:17:23.271 David, this has been a fantastic conversation. 00:17:23.481 --> 00:17:27.711 Sharing your motivations, your tenacity are great insights for all 00:17:27.711 --> 00:17:30.522 of us and, and a role model for what we can achieve, and thank you for 00:17:30.522 --> 00:17:35.581 putting out educational content that we can all benefit from and grow with. 00:17:35.771 --> 00:17:37.932 David Rogier: Oh my God, of course, and thanks for being a part of it. 00:17:39.601 --> 00:17:41.731 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think 00:17:41.731 --> 00:17:43.491 Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:17:44.002 --> 00:17:47.611 To learn more about communication in a variety of contexts, please check 00:17:47.621 --> 00:17:50.181 out our many back catalog episodes. 00:17:50.511 --> 00:17:53.761 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Alex McCarthy, 00:17:53.881 --> 00:17:56.301 Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:17:56.651 --> 00:18:00.741 Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:18:01.201 --> 00:18:04.241 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:18:04.451 --> 00:18:06.502 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:18:06.851 --> 00:18:12.312 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram, and check out fastersmarter.io 00:18:12.321 --> 00:18:16.821 for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. 00:18:17.002 --> 00:18:20.031 Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community 00:18:20.031 --> 00:18:22.341 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:18:22.722 --> 00:18:26.941 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, Matt's AI 00:18:26.942 --> 00:18:29.041 coach, and a book club opportunity. 00:18:29.362 --> 00:18:34.372 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast, 00:18:34.641 --> 00:18:36.442 Talk Smart Learning Community.