Matt Abrahams: To truly hone and master a skill, we have to take
the time to learn from experts.
My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today, I look forward to chatting with David Rogier.
David is the founder and CEO of MasterClass, the streaming platform
that makes it possible for anyone to learn from the world's best.
David is passionate about democratizing access to genius-level knowledge.
Well, David, thank you so much for joining me.
I'm really excited for our conversation.
Shall we get started?
David Rogier: Let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: So to begin, I am a avid participant and student of
Masterclass, and thanks to you and your team, I'm honored that I have
a Masterclass certifications course coming out on strategic communication.
And so thank you for that.
It was a lot of fun, and I hope everybody gets a lot of value out of it.
Like me, you are very passionate about education.
I'd like to start by asking you what motivates you to help
others learn and develop skills?
David Rogier: I was raised in part by my grandmother, and my grandmother
escaped the Holocaust, and I think one of the things that she really
instilled in me, that education's the only thing that someone can't
take away from somebody else.
And I think I really internalized that at a very young age.
That definitely drove me to create MasterClass, but also I think
probably fueled my zest for learning.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
And you've brought that learning to lots and lots of people.
In the early days of MasterClass, uh, you had to convince world-class
talent to trust you, a small startup.
How did you think about pitching what you were doing to people of that nature?
David Rogier: I assumed that it was gonna function the same
way as in the business world.
In the business world, if you know somebody in common with somebody else,
the person makes an introduction, you will usually talk to them.
It's not how it works in the entertainment industry.
In fact, it's designed to do the opposite.
Every celebrity has four to five people whose job it is,
is to not let you do that.
So every celebrity has an agent, a manager, a PR person, sometimes a
financial advisor, and usually a spouse.
Now, of those five people, only one of them has actual
influence over that person.
But the job of the other four is to convince you that it's them.
But it's not.
It's only one of them.
And if you go to the wrong person, you're gonna get a fast no.
So part of the craft was to just learn that.
Two was then to figure out who is that one of the five, and then how
do I pitch that one of the five?
And what I had to learn was that I have to get them to like me and trust me.
And I can do that in a few ways.
I could associate and attach myself to people on the project
and bring them in who they trust.
So these were film directors they'd already worked with before, or film
directors that had won an Oscar before.
The thing about their fear is like, is this person going to look bad?
And so how do you drop that risk?
Two was you have to get them to actually like you and trust you.
And I had to learn the craft of that.
And I think I walked into those early rooms thinking, "I'm pretty special.
I have a master's degree from Stanford.
My mom says I'm amazing.
This idea is going to change the world of education." People don't care about that.
People care about themselves.
And so it was much more effective for me to ask them questions, a lot of questions.
And when somebody asks you questions about things that you want to
talk about, you like them more.
Now, I think there's a craft to what questions you ask.
You have to do it something that you're actually interested in, because
otherwise people feel that instantly.
So I'm glad to dive more into that, but I think there is a craft to
how to pitch, and a lot of that is relationship building for this.
Matt Abrahams: So many rich things there that you talked about.
First, you have to start by really appreciating the circumstance
and those who have access and influence to the people that you're
trying to persuade or motivate.
You have to think about how you approach them.
In your case, it was about de-risking the reputation and really
coming from a place of authentic curiosity to get them talking.
And I think we can all benefit from that in anything we're pitching
or in any relationship, and you've been quite successful at it.
Having been in the chair for a MasterClass certificates, I have witnessed
firsthand the production quality.
That seems to be very important to you and to your team to make sure that it
really has an aesthetic and a look.
Talk to me about where that comes from and how those listening who aren't
going to have access to the crews and the expertise that you have, how
important is it to really think through the visuals, the experience, even
for those of us who are just doing virtual calls and video conferencing?
David Rogier: Part of our success is that our classes do not look like a class.
They look like a Netflix movie.
Now, it's not just the look, it's also then the production value, how engaging
it is, and all those other things.
I had filmed some stuff on my own for test shoots, and they looked horrible.
And so we went to our friends and people we knew, and one of the
first people we went to was actually a professor here at Stanford.
His name is Professor Bill Guttentag.
He's, he's an Oscar-winning film director.
And I, I got introduced to him, and I was like, "Hey, I'm really stuck.
Our stuff looks bad." You know, I was like, "Any advice?
What types of people?
What type of gear?" And he's like, "You're not gonna ask me to shoot?"
I'm like, "You're willing to shoot it?"
He's like, "Yeah, sounds awesome." So Bill shot a bunch of our first
classes, and that really upleveled us.
The other person was Jay Roach, who had a really big impact on that too, and
also shot some of our first few classes.
I think that did a couple things.
One, it achieved what we wanted to on the engagement side and how good it looked.
Two, it brought down the risk for the instructors, 'cause if Bill Guttentag
and Jay Roach are gonna film this, I've seen their stuff, it's really good.
Okay, I know I'm gonna look pretty good.
So if you're at home doing this, I think, think a lot about what
is the form factor supposed to be.
So for example, if it's live Zoom calls that you're doing, then, like,
it should look like a Zoom call.
But I think there's opportunities to make that look good, and I think
some aren't that expensive to do.
And I think one of the best ways to figure that out is look at two or three films or
TV shows or YouTube things that you think look really good, and break down yourself,
or find a friend who knows more than you, break down how did they make that.
And oftentimes you're gonna be like, "Oh, it's the location's actually more
important than I thought." 'Cause the location adds depth, lighting, everything.
So you're like, "You know what? Maybe I should just invest in where I shoot
and the time of day." And you're gonna start to see things like that.
That's not that expensive, but that actually has a huge impact.
Matt Abrahams: Really important point I wanna put an exclamation point on,
which is think about the environment in which you present yourself, and
second, look at and observe others that you enjoy, that you think add value,
and then explore how they do that.
And like you said, it's not that expensive, but it can
make a tremendous difference.
The content is important, but the experience of the
content is equally important.
I really like that.
As a leader, you lead people who are very technical, very content specific,
but also others who are very creative.
That can be hard in terms of management and leadership style to lead people
whose goal is the creative and those who are the business and more technical.
Any advice and guidance to our listeners who find themselves in a similar role?
What helps you manage those different types of people?
David Rogier: You have to adapt.
I think it helps to go deep with some of them.
So if you're working with folks in film, sit in the edit bays with them.
Watch as sound is mixed.
Get deep so that you know each step of it and what it takes.
In the same way, if it's engineering or marketing or whatever, I have
found that my style has to change.
So on the content side, creatives respond much stronger to a
note that is a high-level note.
"Hey, in, in this portion I find my attention is starting to wane.
You know, like, why is that?
Or what are we able to do about it?" And they need just high-level
note, and it's not you solving it for them, it's just the observation.
I found, though, like, on the marketing side or on the product
side, folks like more specific notes.
If you're like, "You know, this page, I'm just not feeling to click," they're like,
"What the hell does that mean?" Versus like, "Hey, the call to action, I think,
isn't bold enough, isn't strong enough." Like, okay, yes, I can work on that.
So I found that I have to change the altitude almost.
Matt Abrahams: That agility all of us can develop, but it's really the
sensitivity to what does this person or these type of people in these
roles, what do they respond best to?
And I really like this idea of giving feedback through questions and then
also being able to get very specific to what your experience is and how
that relates to perhaps others.
David Rogier: And it's hard because, like, when I'm tired or frustrated, I
just want to say, "Please change this to this and this to this." And I've done that
before, and it's not nearly as effective 'cause the mental shortcut I'm taking is
I know more than that person, and I don't.
And so it feels good at the time and it's easier to do, but it
usually ends up a worse result.
Matt Abrahams: In the moment, it might feel like it's solving the situation
or the problem, but in fact, it might be causing damage in the future.
David Rogier: Yes.
Matt Abrahams: I know this is a completely unfair question, but across
the content that you have created and brought to the world, is there one area
or one lesson that you've learned that has really profoundly impacted you?
David Rogier: I mean, we have sat across from 300 of the best in the
world, from Christina Aguilera to Steph Curry to Matt Abrahams, and I
think I had this assumption that once you reach the top, you just chill.
Like Christina can sing when she wants to, Steph can play how long he wants
to, and that, that you're in a state where you can choose when to invest time
and you don't need to invest that much.
Boy, was I wrong.
Every instructor, as we film on any cut, is asking us for notes.
Once the class is done, we're in the testing phase, instructors want
all the input they already gave.
Once a class is live, most of them send us an email or call us and be
like, "I want to change this. I think this is able to be improved." And I
realize that if these masters are still continually trying to improve their
own craft, I don't have any excuses.
Like I gotta keep doing that.
And so I think that was a lot of personal growth for me.
Matt Abrahams: I think that's a wonderful lesson, that the people at the top
of their game are still working and striving, and perhaps that's what helped
them get to the top of their game.
I'd like to get personal.
You and I talked about this a little bit.
So you have a stutter.
It is something you've had for your whole life.
What have you learned about communication through having a
stutter, and what has it changed?
And what advice would you give to people who might have some speech impediment,
everything from an accent to a stutter?
David Rogier: It was really hard as a kid.
I mean, I was teased for it.
I think teachers in school didn't know how to handle it, so some would not call on me
'cause, you know, out of positive intent, but not wanting me to have to speak.
When I was called on to read something, if you stutter, it's very difficult
because one of the tools you use is you substitute words, and you can't
do that when you read something.
I think what it made me, throughout my life, is my empathy for people in
expressing themselves is much higher.
I think I'm much more aware of speech, and I told you, I think one of the things I
started doing as a kid was watching people give speeches and just being more aware
of the, of the mechanics that they use.
So became, I became much more obsessed with it.
I think my approach, I think my parents had a big impact on, was, you
know, when I was a kid, my parents' approach was, "We expect you to talk
and communicate. You can stutter, you stutter, but we don't expect you to let
that block you from doing anything." And so when they had friends over, the
expectation was I would sit with their friends and join them in conversation.
And so I think their very much approach was, "I'm gonna give you a hug, but
you just are gonna keep going." So I think that's probably part of my
appreciation on the oratory side.
Matt Abrahams: That notion of taking what you're dealt with and managing
it, I think, is important for everybody, be it an accent, a stutter.
I'm noticing a theme, David, across everything we've talked about.
Tenacity plays a role.
We talked about tenacity in pursuing getting people to sign up when you
were just starting out, tenacity in the work that you admire and the masters
you bring on, and tenacity in your own life to just keep going with your
communication, and that's something that I think all of us can benefit from.
And it will look different for all of us, but it's important.
David Rogier: Yeah, I don't think life is worth to live without that.
You have to work hard.
And I think sometimes it surprises.
Like, I remember I was in, in some group, we had an exercise where we would
give people feedback on how they, how the person talks, and I was shocked.
I got notes on my stutter.
And what the group said, the effects were, it was the opposite
of what I had in my head.
In my head, makes me sound less smart, makes me not get the idea out, people
get bored, the people get annoyed, people have the urge to say the word for you.
And the feedback from the group was like, "Oh, that doesn't go through our
head." I'm like, "What?" I'm like, "What does go through your head?" They're
like, "Oh, I'm more endeared to you.
Like, I'm seeing this is difficult for you.
I'm more, like, attached to you." I'm like, "I'm sorry, what?" And it's just
for 28 years of my life, I had this one story in my head, and that was not
the story everybody else was having.
And you're like, and I think that's true for so many of the
things that we are insecure about.
Matt Abrahams: What a lovely gift to get that.
And perhaps there's a lesson in there for all of us to seek out feedback
from trusted others who can help us check our assumptions, because you
had an assumption going into this that was contrary to what you learned.
This whole conversation has been fantastic, David.
As you well know, I end with three questions.
One I make up just for you, and two that I've been asking
everybody for a long time.
Are you up for that?
David Rogier: Let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: Another personal question.
You and I talked on our way over to this conversation, that you
and I are both martial artists.
Tenacity is part of that as well.
What draws you to the martial arts, and are there any lessons that you've learned?
I, I've learned a lot of lessons for life in the dojo.
I'm curious what draws you and what lessons?
David Rogier: Part of what draws me in, I like it that for the hour, hour
and a half I'm there, you can't think of anything else, 'cause otherwise
you are gonna get choked out.
I also, it makes me so much more aware of things I wasn't aware of.
The angle of my wrist, the, how I'm shifting my, my weight.
And there's an appreciation of craft and skill that was invisible to me before.
I didn't even know, I never even thought of those things before.
So there's appreciation there.
There is a humility, because you get your butt kicked all the time.
Matt Abrahams: There's nothing like the immediate feedback
you get in a physical activity.
There's no if, ands, and buts.
You get the feedback, both good and bad.
And I totally resonate when you say you become aware of things that you didn't
even know that you didn't know you knew.
And I totally appreciate that presence that it requires.
And these are skills that anybody can find in any physical activity.
It doesn't have to be grappling with somebody or throwing a kick or a punch.
It could be walking in nature.
But I really like that you see that.
Question number two, who's a communicator that you admire and why?
David Rogier: There are a lot.
I'm gonna pick one that isn't as expected.
Vintage Jesse Jackson.
There's a speech he gave in 1984 when he was running to be the Democratic nominee
for president, and he gave the speech in a church in Philadelphia.
The speech is remarkable.
Matt Abrahams: Amazing example.
He's clearly a, a, an amazing communicator.
Final question, David.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
David Rogier: I think you've got to figure out, one is, what does that
person actually want and need right now?
This is another part of your, of yours.
Then the ability to change and adapt that on the fly when you see they've done it.
And then keeping, like, the eyes on the prize.
What I mean by this is you might be in a negotiation where somebody
just needs to vent, and when they vent, they're gonna say things that
you probably do not agree with.
But if your eye's on the prize and the prize is to close a deal, you don't need
to argue about each of those things.
You just let the person talk.
You say you've hear, you heard them, and you try to figure
out how to move things along.
But it's very easy to be like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't agree
to parts two, eight, and twelve that you just said." But doing that
isn't gonna actually solve anything.
Matt Abrahams: So it's about audience.
Make sure you understand what they need.
Yeah.
It's about agility to adjust to what happens and then that focus on what
your ultimate goal is, regardless of some of the hiccups and backwards
steps that happen along the way.
David, this has been a fantastic conversation.
Sharing your motivations, your tenacity are great insights for all
of us and, and a role model for what we can achieve, and thank you for
putting out educational content that we can all benefit from and grow with.
David Rogier: Oh my God, of course, and thanks for being a part of it.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about communication in a variety of contexts, please check
out our many back catalog episodes.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Alex McCarthy,
Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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