Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Excuse My Grandma. It's Kim and my co hosts.
Speaker 2: Grandma Gail.
Speaker 1: I'm laughing because Grandma and I were hanging out earlier and every We were shopping a little bit. Every store was like, Did you guys dress the same on purpose?
Speaker 2: We didn't, we really didn't. It was, I just put the beige on and I needed a little light sweater today because it's so gorgeous in New York. But you walked in the apartment and you're wearing beige too. We're just Well, sending sending out out
Speaker 1: vibes. With like a collar, which is sort of your look, so I should have guessed so much. No, but
Speaker 2: I have a white shirt. Yours is a cute little beige collar, but it's very, very cute. I don't know. That's a new You can
Speaker 1: borrow it. It's a new top. We have a lot to cover today because Father's Day is in just a few days.
Speaker 2: Correct, this weekend.
Speaker 1: And it's one of those holidays that can mean so many different things to different people.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 1: Of course, we're gonna share some ideas on what to do, some recommendations, inspiration, all on our social channels. So definitely make sure you're following Excuse My Grandma on Instagram or TikTok or wherever you follow. Also our newsletter, we'll do some gifting on there. So we have that all covered there. And also if you're listening to the podcast right now, please make sure to rate us five stars.
It goes such a long way for us and leave a review if you can. That would be so helpful. Grandma needs to keep her job.
Speaker 2: I need to keep my job and get a new sweater.
Speaker 1: But we also wanted to spend some time talking about the emotional side of Father's Day because for some people it's a celebration, for other people it has some grief, And it's people it's all those things at once. So I think that's also a thing that makes Excuse My Grandma really special that we can laugh and tell stories and talk about old family members and go through albums and celebrate the people we love while also acknowledging some of those tougher emotions that exists alongside all of So later in the episode, we're going to be joined by Matt Fogelson, who's the author of Fatherhood in a Different Key. And we're going to discuss grief and fatherhood and navigating complicated relationships with our parents. But before we get there, let's talk about some of the joyful things that Father's Day brings up. I already know what I'm getting, dad.
Okay. Knicks merch.
Speaker 2: Well, loves that. That will be his best gift.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the day that this pod is out is the Knicks parade. And yeah, my dad's a lifelong Knicks fan.
Speaker 2: And they've suffered, and we've suffered through all these losses for so many years. So everybody is just, New York just is open and happy and united and feeling that these guys and I I think they were clearly the underdog, really came through and always in the fourth quarter.
Speaker 1: Insane.
Speaker 2: I never saw a fourth quarter. The the last game, my grandson said, you you better not go to sleep because the fourth quarter is gonna be the end. And he was right. He was absolutely right. So I
Speaker 1: will say It's anyone's game, even in the last four seconds, which is
Speaker 2: so Last two minutes was the whole game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is so fun to watch. But so Zach and I went to a sports bar on our block and we basically snuck in because Of was at course. And I was like, okay, channel your college skills when you were under 21 and you would just sneak into the bar. So I like maneuvered my way in and it was really shoulder to shoulder. And by the like second or third quarter, I was like, I've been standing for a long time.
It's kind of enough, let's go home. But he was like, no, the last quarter is why we're here. Exactly. We have So to my body powered through it and it was so worth it because that last moment, everyone being elated and out in the street, like 2nd Avenue was crazy.
Speaker 2: It's terrific.
Speaker 1: And there were drinks thrown in my face. There was confetti. I wish it was like this all the time, this Well,
Speaker 2: it would be nice, but unfortunately we don't have that many things to unify us. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: like that sense of community, like what else could be like that that we could find? Because Maybe Grandma, Gail and Kim. Everyone's just gonna go crazy over us.
Speaker 2: They're gonna throw confetti at us.
Speaker 1: And even me who has been paying attention to the Knicks for about twenty days, I felt the connection. The elation surrounding it all.
Speaker 2: I was excited.
Speaker 1: Before that, like, I don't know the team roster. I certainly know who sits in Celebrity Row. So that was fun to watch all of that.
Speaker 2: But it was the same guys. And they were loyal. They went to San Antonio. I mean, that front row went all over. The Knick fans went all over.
They really got there.
Speaker 1: To meet it Chalamet in the locker room. Did you see those videos?
Speaker 2: No, I don't really. I'm not even a fan of his. He's a little munchkin. Have no
Speaker 1: You were literally saying he's the Knick player's libubu. Because he's such a It's a little mascot. He's not even little, just compared to them.
Speaker 2: Everybody compared to them, except Shaq O'Neal was doing the commentating. And he's the biggest guy. You know, he's an old, old basketball player, and he's tremendous. So everybody compared to him is dwarfed even in on the team.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, yes, I will be getting dad some sort of t shirt or hat or something. Good.
Speaker 2: If you can find
Speaker 1: them. I know, I was thinking where do I even get them? I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think I had to go to Madison Square Garden. They said yesterday that it was a standing room only crowd to get the leftover stuff.
Speaker 1: Don't I if can have get all my merch from when I've gone to games in Right. The
Speaker 2: past. We can't give them some of your stuff.
Speaker 1: No. I don't So maybe I'll have to do some research and if I find stuff, I'll link it for everybody because I'm sure everyone wants to get it. Yeah, but I don't think you're gonna have any luck with that. So talking a little bit more about Father's Day traditions and all that, what was Father's Day like for you growing up?
Speaker 2: Father's Day was a wonderful day where my grandparents would come up. We lived in the suburbs, so my grandparents lived in the city, both sets. And my cousins all lived in the country and we would all get together on that Sunday and have a barbecue. We would have hot dogs, hamburgers, baked beans. But a very big I think I just had this past weekend, I ate the same hot dogs.
But we did it and we all got together and we talked about all the things we had done during the weekend. It was a happy time. Growing up in the 50s in the suburbs was sort of a golden age. You'll never go through because we didn't know we were going through a golden age, but it really was. And it was nice when all the grandparents were there and we were able to share all our life experiences thus far with them.
That was fun.
Speaker 1: Golden age you're describing, what about fatherhoods or fathers to
Speaker 2: Well, the think America came into a golden age after World War II, after 1945 and men came back from war, there was a tremendous growth in housing and in industry and people were finding new types of jobs that were being created because it was a new world. And I think it also was free of stress. There was no war conversation for that period of maybe fifteen years until really, well no, the Korean War was in the 50s, that came about as well, but that wasn't on TV, you didn't see it as much. Where it really started getting disrupted was during the Vietnam War, when every day you would see something on the TV. But up until then, watch television to watch a comedy show, to watch Milton Berle or some Sid Caesar
Speaker 1: or something.
Speaker 2: But I
Speaker 1: meant like about fathers and dads, like what from now, they're like a lot different. I feel like there's, you see more maybe involvement today.
Speaker 2: Well, they are more involved. They are more involved because in those days, most families were single family incomes where the father would go at six or 07:00 in the morning, go to his job, and the mom was a stay at home mom taking care of the children and doing what she had to do. So that is a very big difference today. You can't really compare. We've discussed this often on the thing.
It's very, very different. Not that the values are different, it's just the family network was different. Fathers didn't get three months off in paternity leave and neither did But
Speaker 1: also don't you think there was more of a work life balance? I feel like they came home at, I I just know this from the movies and whatever, but I feel like they came home at 5PM and work was done. And then you go back the next day, today men are working and women all hours of the night.
Speaker 2: No, I think depending on your work. If you worked in a factory or something like that, yes, it was nine to five. But if you were a lawyer or a doctor, were always working. Was the same kind of thing. But nowadays, the fathers feel a little more guilty and they don't do as much or they somehow manage to fit the basketball or the baseball little league game into their schedule.
Whereas when I was growing up, my father went to work. He didn't go to those games. That just wasn't part
Speaker 1: of this family dynamics. Do you think fathers are cooler today than they were? No.
Speaker 2: Father is a father. I think sometimes No. I think it's exactly the same. It's just I think the young people have changed. I think there's less respect for the family hierarchy.
They think they're part of the team. They want to be friends with their fathers and mothers. We weren't friends. There was no such thing as being friendly with your father. That just didn't happen.
Or your mother, they were your parents and as were your teachers or your clergymen. I mean, had a very respectful relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting. Because also I feel like dad humor, do you know like what that is? Those, like jokes that are Jokes. Yeah, but they're like so dumb. Like, mean, this isn't exactly, I wanna think of a good dad joke, but my dad is always goofy quoting Well he side loves to be goofy.
Feel like the 50s fathers were more serious, but maybe it is just a
Speaker 2: personality I think that's his particular personality. He's one of the few that laugh at those things all the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah. What is something that Poppy does that he thinks is very cool, but Nothing it's not
Speaker 2: that he does is cool.
Speaker 1: Feel like when he wears his white sneakers, he'll still wear it with slacks, but he comes in and he's like, Look how cool I am.
Speaker 2: Well, now he's wearing sneakers had it done. Oh, that's changed his whole world. I mean, now he's wearing we don't put ties on anymore. We used to wear I think Poppy went to bed with his ties. I mean, that was just part of it, part of going to work.
You never went to work without a tie. You didn't go to most meetings without a tie. Now everybody is casual Friday every day. But I
Speaker 1: think Poppy also thinks his printer and his label maker are Like it's a new technology to have a printer.
Speaker 2: He's not the one to ask about technology Kim.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just think there's also certain things that all dads do that are dad like
Speaker 2: think what dads like to do, play games with their children. Even their girl children, their male children, they like to participate in what they like to do, whether it be video games on a weekend or whether it be a golf game or a basketball game, or what's that new game that everybody loves to play, Padel. They like to do that because they are in the mood to do that and they like the activity and they want their kids to participate. Even if the kid doesn't want it, or wants to go draw a picture in the field, the father wants to get involved with some kind of activity
Speaker 1: that I he also feel like all dads tell the same story 4,000 times. And I feel like a lot of dads carry cash. Like my dad's always like, here's a 20 or something.
Speaker 2: Well, then that wasn't Poppy. No. Maybe you'd get a 5
Speaker 1: if Poppy you were also refuses to ask for directions. Feel like he knows the way to Well,
Speaker 2: now he watches that stupid Waze. And you can't even have a conversation. Maybe Waze is making a mistake. No, his Waze is not making a mistake. So you know what?
You learn to adjust and say, if that's what he wants, let him go on Waze.
Speaker 1: Let's think about Poppy and dad's favorite things. So what's Poppy's favorite restaurant? Oh, guess probably Nicola's in New York.
Speaker 2: Is a tiny little Italian restaurant we've been going to for like forty some odd years.
Speaker 1: What's dad's like? He likes the trendiest things. He likes the traffic group ones.
Speaker 2: He also likes to go downtown. Yes. That's an excursion in itself, an evening with your dad, by getting to the restaurant.
Speaker 1: Does Poppy have a favorite movie?
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. We've stopped watching movies since COVID. That's used crazy. To love to go No, to the movie at home we watch murder mysteries. We're very busy.
Murdered all the people in all of Europe. Right.
Speaker 1: What's dad's favorite movie? Definitely like a Adam Sandler, Will Ferrell thing. OMA.
Speaker 2: What's it called? Not OMA.
Speaker 1: No, yeah. Or Adam Sandler or Wait, one of what's the movie Or Me The Paladaga Nights. One of those. Does he have a go to snack? Poppy?
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I think anything that I'm eating, he likes to eat. As soon as I have the cookie, he has to share the He
Speaker 1: thinks it's Okay if you I do think dad eats everything.
Speaker 2: Right, he likes Tough
Speaker 1: porn, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Dads are a special breed. They're there to reinforce their children. And it's wonderful when you have a dad present, so many people don't. And so therefore it's a difficult holiday for those that don't have it. So we have to always remember that.
And hopefully they'll have a great mom that's standing in. And many times a mom stands in for a dad and does activities with their children for the holiday, it's like Mother's Day. Not everybody has a mom. So we all want everybody to celebrate with whoever they love. It doesn't even have to be a mom or a dad.
Just pick up some friends and get some wings in the house and just enjoy the day together with somebody you love.
Speaker 1: Yeah. With Poppy as a dad, what was he best at? He was good at everything.
Speaker 2: He was a very good teacher. Well, was very smart in school. So he would help a little bit with homework. He didn't really believe in helping with homework. And he really felt you should do it on your own or ask your That's so annoying.
I know.
Speaker 1: I feel like, why not help? He just didn't think you'd learn that way. Zach's like that in a way, like he doesn't tell me the answers to things. He's like, what do you think it is? Or maybe he doesn't
Speaker 2: know the probably doesn't know
Speaker 1: the answer. He does, it's so annoying. When parenting, who was good cop and who was bad cop with you and Poppy? Was it like that? Yeah, we didn't have that.
We both were basically on the same page.
Speaker 2: And nobody was a bad cop. We really didn't, we really weren't. But my two children were easy children to raise because they were very respectful.
Speaker 1: That's nice. What was it like when Poppy became a grandfather?
Speaker 2: Well, we all adored that. I mean, that was our greatest moments. They always say you're having children, so you have grandchildren. I mean, that's absolutely correct. So that's just a natural thing of where families go.
They want the next generation to come up and you wanna share the love and that's what a family is.
Speaker 1: How do we come up with Poppy versus grandpa or some other name?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think Poppy in our case was, mommy, it was easier to call, I guess you called him Poppy. It was easier than grandpa.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm thinking though because Poppy, like for my great grandparents
Speaker 2: He was called Poppy
Speaker 1: Right, so maybe mom did. Well, could be. But a
Speaker 2: Poppy is easier to say than Grandpa. Probably. So you're probably in the beginning then you can always
Speaker 1: But there's switch it Pop
Speaker 2: Pop, Yeah, there could be, and a of people But
Speaker 1: we didn't do that. Right, there are
Speaker 2: all kinds of variations of Grandma, Mama, or Nana. Everybody has a different thing. And a lot of grandparents wanna be called by their first name. It's very individual. What do think of that?
I don't love that. But you
Speaker 1: know what? That's Is that they don't feel old? Maybe, maybe. And that's silly if you
Speaker 2: Well, it's not silly to them I guess.
Speaker 1: I guess. Let's talk about dad and Poppy's role in Excuse My Grandma, like the support there. Well, they've certainly been supportive. Yeah. Do you remember how they reacted when we wanted to start?
Speaker 2: No, I think they both thought it was a fun thing. I don't think they knew it was gonna morph into what it morphed into. They thought we were just gonna have a couple of podcasts and say goodbye to it and you would get another job Little and do did something know you created a monster.
Speaker 1: Poppy, I remember was helpful with some of the business stuff. He was like, You have to start an LLC once you get paid and things like that. And dad gave me some business advice Well,
Speaker 2: they're businessmen. That's why we relied on them so much in the beginning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well dad also had some creative ideas.
Speaker 2: He's very creative.
Speaker 1: He's like, Oh, you should do a video on this. And I'm like, It's actually not the worst idea ever. And then he'll be like, Are you gonna give me credit for the idea? Am I gonna be on the show? That's what he always
Speaker 2: calls He always wants his to be on own the show.
Speaker 1: I'm like, What do you mean the show? I think he wants to be wants to be the Ambrosario.
Speaker 2: Wants to be in the background a director.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the Kris Jenner of Right, the
Speaker 2: exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: If they had official titles at Excuse My Grandma, what would Poppy and dad be called? The unsolicited advice officer?
Speaker 2: Yeah, their opinions, are what do you
Speaker 1: call it? Poppy's like a personality.
Speaker 2: No, I think they always have a comment. They're commenting
Speaker 1: on it.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I listen to half the comments anymore. They're like a critic.
Speaker 1: Grandma, what are some of the things about me that you think I maybe got from my dad? Well, certainly got your coloring. Yeah, we both have dark hair and blue eyes and blue Right, well your mommy
Speaker 2: had blue eyes too. What'd get from your dad? I think you like to perform. He likes to perform and you I like see. To
Speaker 1: Yeah, he does. In a way. Storyteller. Yeah, I Yeah, think that's fair. What about, did I get anything from Poppy?
No. Not really.
Speaker 2: Not really.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think like No. We're kinda different. I Just mean
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 1: mean, we like the same foods, I guess. What are some things that you think you inherited from your dad?
Speaker 2: Everything. But I thought my dad was the greatest.
Speaker 1: You're very similar you think?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was similar to my dad, not
Speaker 1: my Similar to him than your mom?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And I related more to my father than my mother. I thought he was the greatest thing walking, and he was also always with me. He always wanted to be part of whatever I was doing and
Speaker 1: always What's was something he introduced you to that you still love today?
Speaker 2: I think Broadway musicals. He loved to sing. Was in his own way. My mother played the piano, my father had a very good voice, we always went to, since we didn't live in Manhattan, we made special trips into the city and we'd see our grandparents and then we'd go to a show.
Speaker 1: So cute.
Speaker 3: We'd eat
Speaker 2: at Gallagher's, which was the place in those days. It's still now the place in Boca. But it was But they have
Speaker 1: it here. They had it here,
Speaker 2: oh, for
Speaker 1: a very long I
Speaker 2: don't know if it's still here, but maybe it is.
Speaker 1: Think so. Think I went recently.
Speaker 2: And we went to a restaurant also over there before theater, Ruby Foos, which
Speaker 1: is Oh built my remember that.
Speaker 2: My God, that was the greatest Chinese food.
Speaker 1: We used to go all the time.
Speaker 2: That was a later version of Ruby foods, but when I was growing up, was real Chinese food that we, who knows if it was real Chinese food, whatever it was, we loved it. And then we would go to a Broadway show. That was something we really did as a family together and we adored it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like other people's dads taught them laundry or gardening or grilling. And I'm trying to think of what dad taught me besides how to make a good reservation.
Speaker 2: Well, that's very important.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Tipping, I don't know. I think also what's become clear through today's conversation is that Father's Day isn't really about one thing. Like can change the course of our lives. Sometimes it's celebration and gratitude.
And then sometimes it's like remembering someone we've lost. So before we bring on our guests, wanted to think about like, depending on what stage of life you're in, like how your relationship with this holiday has changed throughout the years.
Speaker 2: Well, don't have a father, so I certainly don't celebrate Father's Day in that sense, but I celebrate it with my son and my husband and my son-in-law. And I always try to give them something, a little something just for the day, and then we also always have some kind of barbecue or something. So it's just being together. Not a serious moment. It should be lighthearted and shared.
Speaker 1: But is it weird when it transfers more from your father to then, okay, now it's about That's my husband's the normal sequence.
Speaker 2: That's the cycle of life. The cycle of life never stays the same. So you're no longer a childbearing, I'm now a grandmother or hopefully I'll be a great grandmother one day. You don't stay stagnant in where you are in your life. So therefore you have to accommodate and it should be fun.
I think when you're young though, you
Speaker 1: don't recognize I don't know,
Speaker 2: But you're think gonna get
Speaker 1: old. That, but then also I just think of it like, oh, it's a day I'm celebrating my dad and my grandpa and you're celebrating your husband, but you forget that it's like, oh, it's also the father's before.
Speaker 2: Of course. And that's what should be remembered. Right.
Speaker 1: You feel like so someone wrote in on Instagram how was dealing with grief and hardship growing up for you?
Speaker 2: Well, I was lucky not to have that grief until I was in my later years. I lost my grandfather who I was very close to, but I was already in my 30s. When you're younger, you really don't understand that loss. It's a very difficult loss to lose people in your family that you're very close to. And then as you get older and older, I don't think you ever get used to it, but you realize you can't help it.
It's just part of what happens in life, and you grieve and then you get on with it. And, you shouldn't forget people. People who you've loved should still always be in your mind somewhere, whether it be a picture that you have on a table of them to remind you of them or just something that a chocolate cookie that you used to make together or that you used to have on a special day and you love together and have it again to remember somebody that you loved.
Speaker 1: Do you think the first Father's Day is like without your father after Oh,
Speaker 2: think it's very hard.
Speaker 1: Is that the hardest and Yeah, then it gets
Speaker 2: I think the first year of anything is very difficult. On that note, Kimberly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna talk more about grief And happiness. And fatherhood and changing it up for the generations to come with Matt, so we're gonna get him right now. Okay, to help us navigate some of those tougher conversations regarding grief, We're joined by Matt Fogelson, author of Fatherhood in a Different Key. His story that Grandma and I both really enjoyed is about losing his father, becoming a father himself, and finding healing through music, especially Pearl Jam. But it's also something so many people really understand, which is trying to love a parent, understand a parent, forgive a parent, and still be your own person.
So, Matt, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're excited to get into it. So Grandma knows your mom.
Speaker 2: It's very definitely funny, a we have a very long time. And I always hear about Matt. I know that he has a vineyard or he's had something out in Aspiring.
Speaker 1: Aspiring. All his adventures.
Speaker 2: I always think, Oh wow, that's really cool. I mean, her other son lives in New York, so we sort of hear about him as well. Both were lawyers, followed in their father's sort of footsteps, and I knew casually knew your dad. I really didn't know him well. We knew of him.
He was a revered person in our little circle of the world when he was a lawyer and a big time corporate lawyer. So everybody sort of knew him, but we didn't know all the story behind it and I certainly didn't know the story till I read your book, which is beautifully done. And so I think we have to talk about how the book came about because it's very emotional in the beginning. And you were a lawyer at the time but not when you wrote the book. Right.
So your career Give us a little thing. You went to Duke, that I know because my son was at the same school. You had both the most fabulous basketball adventures in the whole world. How did going from a lawyer, and he left New York, went out, went to Washington, correct?
Speaker 3: Yep. So
Speaker 2: you tell the
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. Well, so the book came about really because when we had our son, he's now 21, so it was a while ago, but obviously it was a very joyful thing. There was a lot of, you know, he brought a lot of happiness. But I found that in these great moments of happiness, there would often be this opposing, I won't say equally opposing, but some opposing feeling of sadness, just you know, knowing that he was never going
Speaker 1: to meet my dad, my dad was never going
Speaker 3: to see me being a dad. And so I realized that I had a lot to kind of think through when I became a father, it made me think about my relationship with my father, and I kind of realized, you know, I didn't really know him. Right.
Speaker 2: Well, you knew him as a teenager, but barely, because was a workaholic, basically.
Speaker 3: But I didn't know, I couldn't tell you who his best friend was,
Speaker 1: what he
Speaker 3: was into as a kid, what his passions And I kind of could feel that emotional distance seeping into my relationship with my sonny family family agent, so I wanted to try and arrest that. And so all that kind of introspection was going on at a time when I also was starting to write a little bit. I had started a music blog, which was initially to nudge classic rock fans like myself out of the 1970s.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: But it became more sort of narrative style personal essays about music and parenting. And so that ultimately led to me writing more about my experiences with my dad and as a father.
Speaker 2: And working it through, working life through and through music which it certainly did through all your teenage years and forever, was like your safety net almost to go back to and really understand through song. I love the Bruce Springsteen references because so many of us grew up, I was married with children but I went to all the Bruce Springsteen and we would listen to the lyrics and you got a feeling of, what would you say, anguish about his relationship with his dad, and then you think about your relationships that you have with family. So all of this all tied in with your writing this book, I think.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, absolutely. His memoir, Born to Run, funny, I commend that to anyone. Even if you're not a fan of his music, like the father son introspection there was kind of riveting. But yeah, I mean, music was, so yeah, as a kid, I was very into music. Grew up in the city, was always going down to Greenwich Village to buy records and stuff.
But then at some point, I kinda pushed that aside. I kinda got the vibe that, you know, music wasn't really what serious people did.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: Right. And, you know, but all that, when our son was born, it all came back.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: You know, like my wife asked me to burn a CD for, you know, to listen to while she was nursing.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: ACD. I burned 15. You know, I spent every night burning CDs, and so it just sort of emerged. Right. And I think it was really just a desire, I mean, couldn't have articulated this at the time, but a desire for my son to know who I am, I never really got that
Speaker 1: before Yeah, my I was gonna say, Grandma and I were talking about this before you came in, that generationally, I'm wondering if this is how a lot of fathers acted or just that they showed love in a very different and less expressive way. Like I hear stories or in movies and TV that like fathers didn't really say I love you and things like that. Whereas today I think people think about fatherhood a lot differently. I'm wondering how much of it you think is like a generational pattern versus individual experience.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it is generational. As I mentioned in the book, I think my dad kind of learned that from his dad. Idea that I think my dad, his dad was a lawyer, and I think for him to sort of feel his dad's love, it was through work. They would like, as I mentioned in the book, I don't remember any conversations where they weren't talking about work.
Speaker 2: But that was what it was in those days. I can say from my personal experience, and we've often discussed this, your father left in the morning and then came home, if you were lucky, for dinner. You didn't see him or talk to him at night and then very often, depending on what their career was, they didn't come home until late at night. And so you really only saw them occasionally on the weekends. Hopefully they weren't working.
But we didn't expect it. For the most part, that was what it was. The father had to go out. It was a single income family, had to go out and make a living. Of course, it gets to an extreme where they don't have anything else in their life but work, and then that's unhealthy for everybody.
But it's so much different than today when husbands now take time off for maternity leave when a baby is born. Nobody ever heard of that. And I'm going back to my life, my husband changed one diaper with each kid. And he ruined all the diapers for the month. We used to get a supply of fabric diapers in those days.
I'm dating myself really. And I came home one day and the entire box of diapers that was supposed to last till the next week were gone. I said, do We know
Speaker 1: took them a lot of tries to do it?
Speaker 2: No, he couldn't do it. He messed up every And then the kid must have gone to the bathroom, your mother must have done it again and he was frustrated. But I was laughing. I said, that's it. No longer are you on diaper duty yet.
That cured him of He was so happy.
Speaker 1: I think he did it on purpose.
Speaker 2: So I think that is different now. I mean, people who get married today, it's so much more of a partnership.
Speaker 3: That's what I've noticed that with my friends, for sure, my brother is the And he's more in that world too. But even he, think, is a very different father.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're different fathers. I think fathers were different. They were just different. They were there to be fathers, patriarchs of the family. And if you were lucky and they were able to communicate, it's the communicating which they really didn't know how to do.
I think that's a basic thing and you see that in the book. I'm sure your dad wanted to communicate perhaps at certain times. You did do it when you went fishing.
Speaker 3: Yeah. That was sort of the time when I would get him to myself. As a kid, what I wanted was my dad. Of course. Just wanted time with him.
And the boat was perfect because he couldn't bring his work paper. Like we'd go on vacation and he would, you know, he'd bring a Robert Ludlam novel, but I don't think he cracked it. You know, he's like reading these papers.
Speaker 1: But
Speaker 3: on the boat, not to say that we had conversations,
Speaker 2: but you went together. But you went together. I
Speaker 3: knew that he loved me. That was never a question about these things. And that gets you very far. But I do have such fond memories of of that. Also because my mom was not gonna go out fishing with him, and my brother was, you know He didn't like a weak stomach, shall we say, for all modes of transportation.
Speaker 1: Sounds like we get along. I would be happy with
Speaker 2: the bed too.
Speaker 1: So when your father got his cancer diagnosis, I liked this because I actually hear this from you a lot, Grandma. He told you, you have to play the hand you're dealt. Curious how that advice kind of shaped you and maybe changed the way you approached illness and death.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I'd reacted to that in the moment with, you know, there was no veneer like There's a And he was silver lining here. Yeah, he was 46 when he was diagnosed.
Speaker 2: And he died, you were only was
Speaker 3: 48.
Speaker 2: You were 21?
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you know that's lot different.
Speaker 3: Yeah like eighteen months. But you know so like we all kind of put on this charade of like you know what he caught it early and he's gonna be fine and I never believed that but I kind of felt like, I mean he was modeling that and I felt like I needed to model that for my mom and my brother was modeling that for me and also it was kind of this bad situation. That's what happens. But you know I kind of had an instinct that this was not going to end well and you know and that's he wrote this letter to my brother and me when he was diagnosed which we didn't receive. He gave it to a law partner to give to us if the So worst at the funeral we got handed this letter, it was kind of bizarre, and in it that's one of the points that he made was you know you got to always face up to the truth and I think that's an important thing to be able Yeah.
To
Speaker 1: Grandma, do you relate to that feeling like you have to be strong for everyone else, even through your own cancer diagnosis?
Speaker 2: Well, and I also lost my dad to cancer, to lung cancer. So you never want to believe that it's going to happen. I don't care to the last moment you really do believe, Oh, he's going to make it or she's going to make it. When it happens, it's a shock and you have to then deal your own grief, and depending where you are in the family situation, you have to take care of those who are around you because everybody is grieving. As Matthew points out, it's not only he but his mother and his other brother.
In my case, I had siblings who also were, you know, everybody was suffering. When person, when the link is broken, somebody has to step up to the plate and try to put the links back together in whatever order. It's never going to be the same order. I often think about that. Nothing is ever the same but it's new.
It's a new life. And just like the birth of your son becomes a new life. So now you have to say, How am I gonna make my life different? Which you did magnificently. I mean not everybody would do what you did to give up a really flourishing legal career and say I'm going to be present in my son now and be present with my wife.
So give us a little bit of how you were able to do that because that I think is really the story But you yourself found this tremendous strength within yourself.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. So it was interesting. It sort of came to a head around the time it was bar mitzvah because everyone was coming in that weekend and I had a brief due on Monday. Mhmm.
And I remember I had to like excuse myself for an afternoon to like go deal with this brief, and I'm like, what am I doing? And I had been in this sort of spiral where I wasn't driving into school anymore, which was that sacred time. Yeah. Mean, listening to E Street radio and talking fantasy football and
Speaker 2: all that, Absolutely.
Speaker 3: And I used to like get off work a little early, play golf with him, hadn't done that in months, and I was like, you know what, this is getting a little bit out of control, and I could kind of feel myself becoming my father a little bit. And so I think someone who was very instrumental in helping me to make that leap was my aunt Wendy, who I talk about This a lot in the is my mom's sister, younger sister by the
Speaker 2: She was a beat thic. Yep. Basically a beat dick.
Speaker 1: And that's like, explain. Well,
Speaker 2: a beat dick is she probably was at Woodstock. She was a free spirit. And she didn't conform to what society told everybody that she had to
Speaker 3: be. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But she gave you a lot of very good advice.
Speaker 3: She did, she wore her passion on her sleeve for music, in particular, Bob She would just like quote him, like she would say, you know what Bob says, he was Who's Bob?
Speaker 1: Who's Bob? First name basis.
Speaker 3: I didn't really know too many adults who were passionate about anything. I'm sure they had passion, but I don't know what they were. But like with her, it was very clear. And she was met sort of with eye rolling by my Yeah,
Speaker 2: because she didn't fit
Speaker 1: into the form.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think I kind of adopted that attitude towards her as a kid, and I kind of got the vibe that they're, danger, proceed And with so I kind of kept her at a distance even though she gave me all these Dylan records and she could tell that I was into music and she was always proselytizing for Dylan and eventually it landed. But I think I, looking back in hindsight, I think her example of just kind of living her life the way that she did was powerful for me. Like, you know, when I think about writing this book when I started my music blog, would think about her all the time.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So I think that was helpful to get me over the hump.
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to talk about, like, if people don't have a passion like music, what would you say to them about finding another coping mechanism to get through those darker times?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, that certainly wasn't like something that I consciously thought about, you know, it's just something I gravitated towards. I gotta believe most people have something, whether it's walking through the art museum by yourself late before it closes or or hiking, or whatever it is. You just need to, I think, give yourself the time to do that and the space to do that, and sort of the grace to do that. That was one of the things my aunt Wendy wrote, she wrote me a letter after my dad died, which I, was sort of like, you've had this horrible tragedy, you're gonna go to some dark places, you need to see yourself the way I see you, and don't believe.
And I read that, was like, this is psychobabble.
Speaker 2: Of course, in Right, it was brilliant and it was meaningful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Because it makes so much sense that
Speaker 2: Sometimes a walk in the park. It's very interesting because not everybody has his talent but one of the things that Matthew points out, one of his great spaces is when you went to Alaska and you went out into the wilderness and you saw the beauty. You almost have to step out. When things overwhelm, I had it as well, I lost a brother at a very, very young age, he
Speaker 3: was
Speaker 2: 44, and it took me many years, probably still not over it, thirty some odd years later, you have to go out somewhere that makes you at peace, whether it be in your backyard and just walk around and look at the flowers or walk on the street, and see a beautiful tree and remind you that something is beautiful out there. It's not all depressing. You But you're actually found it not, in
Speaker 1: Matt, like you traveled and had amazing experiences, but the grief still weighed you down when
Speaker 3: we were going well. Yeah, so that whole journey, the kind of outdoors journey started with this Alaska trip right after my dad died, after I graduated from college, and I had this amazing experience and I kind of took from that that this was going to be my happy place, this was going to be what I needed to do and so every vacation involved backpacking in some totally random place and I wasn't going to just like get on a bus and take a selfie at Niagara Falls or something, Yeah,
Speaker 2: An adventure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, to your point, what I came to realize is that that doesn't solve the problem. The problem. Like the grief travels with you. And it's not something you ever really You get don't over ever get over
Speaker 2: I don't think you ever get over it. I think what you were so fortunate that you had a mother and you had a brother naturally there, but I think most important, you had what is now your wife, Jody.
Speaker 3: Uh-huh.
Speaker 2: I love that part because I think she's the silent hero in this, that she really was there supporting you. She wasn't. She was your longtime companion. You can tell that story more than I.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but
Speaker 2: I'm not don't even her, and I'm amazed that she was resilient enough to keep going there and still helping you no matter what it was. She wanted you to get out of the dark into the light.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but Matt, this is Excuse My Grandma, and you were with her for eleven years without a ring, Grandma Gale's
Speaker 2: gonna have something to say He did it, she didn't want it, she didn't want the ring, I Yes,
Speaker 3: she said marriage is an institution created by men to subjugate women. That was her position for many years. Then she, what kind of brought her over was she said one day, you know I think my grandmother and your grandmother would really get along. How could we make that happen? So anyway.
Speaker 2: How many years are you married now?
Speaker 3: It's gonna be twenty six, Okay, so in a
Speaker 2: couple so it worked. And you were together eleven years before.
Speaker 3: Yes, right. So we started dating sophomore year of college.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: So I haven't been on a date with someone else
Speaker 1: since Why? Like the late
Speaker 2: But
Speaker 3: you know, it's funny, so when I was doing drafts of this, worked with an editor and one of her first notes was, We need more Jodi. There wasn't a lot
Speaker 2: of Jodi. It's very interesting. There wasn't a lot of Jodi.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well there's more now.
Speaker 2: But there's more in it. And I liked it a lot because I could see her threads of how she could pull you out of a lot of the dark areas. You do need someone to help you through a journey if you're lucky. You have somebody to help you
Speaker 1: How through can the they help? What's the most helpful thing
Speaker 2: a I partner can think standing next to you.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And also just even if it's giving you space, right? Like not being one of those people saying you're going to be okay.
Speaker 2: You're right.
Speaker 3: You know, letting you have that space to work through it and just knowing that they're going to be there on the other side of
Speaker 2: it. Correct.
Speaker 3: You know, I would put on my headphones and like, just literally
Speaker 1: To like sense what the other person wants because everyone's different going through this, or ask them what they need from you in
Speaker 3: those moments. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Don't even know. But so often when you're grieving You don't even know. You don't even know what you need. So it's just being there. I think just being there and putting out a hand and whatever, I think that's very Now what does your son think of
Speaker 3: the book? Has he read it? Has he read part
Speaker 1: of it?
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So the last I heard, he told me a while ago that he was through Alaska chapter. And then he told my mom a month or two ago that he kind of had stopped because he didn't want to get to the parts about him. Okay.
Speaker 2: Well there's very little.
Speaker 3: Mean that's really
Speaker 2: just He's just in the beginning. About him always.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. But it's interesting because he's been so supportive of this project. It's really been kind of amazing. Which is great. Yeah, and he's suggesting
Speaker 2: Well now he's almost a man. He is a man, he's a grown man.
Speaker 3: 21, yeah.
Speaker 2: So was he finished with college?
Speaker 3: No, he just finished his third year.
Speaker 2: Oh, his third year?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay. You graduate when you're like 22 ish.
Speaker 2: Why? Well, don't know, was so long ago.
Speaker 1: I have no idea, I'm ready to go back. Wait, Grandma, how have you had to be there for friends who are grieving? Like maybe they've lost their husband after forty years?
Speaker 2: Well that really happens. I mean most of Matt's mother and I have known each other for maybe fifty years. All the people we started off with, most of them are now widows or widowers. So you have to be there for them. You're not gonna replace the person naturally, but if you're there, let's go out for dinner, let's have a cup of coffee, let's sit and talk.
Very often we play cards or we do something and have fun. You have to bring light to a conversation.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, this is so, as I'm saying this, I hope this is not like belittling this at all, it's but like when you go through a breakup, which is another form of grief, this is just like how I'm thinking of it. Like, you say to your girlfriends, like, let's do girls nights this week. And you're just like, try to be with them as much as possible because then when you're alone is when you're like really feeling it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know, you have to find
Speaker 3: a
Speaker 2: place, whether it be in your music, your love of writing now, the blogs, you found a place for yourself
Speaker 3: to
Speaker 2: really release your energy. Yes. And it's where you are,
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, yeah, the music was a way to kind of off gas the toxicity of the anger, and a lot of it was expressed, that anger, in self loathing and stuff, and just a total crisis of confidence. This is, I mean, right after he died for a few years, when I was in law school. Right. Particularly Soundgarden and Pearl Jam, as you mentioned. Yeah, yeah.
It helped with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And one of the things that feels really important about the book is that you're a man talking very vulnerably and open about grief and fatherhood and love and all of these topics. Was that part of your writing process or intention to show other men that it's okay to talk about these things?
Speaker 3: I'd to say yes to them. But it really, it was a very, really just sort of a personal I mean, but it's been very gratifying, think. I've done a few book events that came out in February, and the number of people that have come up to me and said you know I could relate to this. I mean obviously everyone's situation is different, but it has seemed to resonate with a lot of people which is incredibly gratifying. I didn't start out thinking about getting an audience or florida.
Speaker 1: I do wonder if men and women handle grief differently.
Speaker 2: Think they do. Think men are much more stoic usually because they've always been told keep your emotions in, where women are always seen as a weeping
Speaker 1: Those are stereotypes but yeah.
Speaker 2: Well I know, of course we're dealing in stereotypes but I think that there was a difference. Now we're seeing through many, many books, but certainly Matthew's book, that grief hits everybody, and so you have to express it how best you can and get out of the hole because everybody's in a hole when this happens. Are very few people that when they lose either a parent or worse of all a child, people die out of order. Somebody once told me, My brother died out of order. My parents were still alive and my brother died.
That's out of order. You're not supposed to see that. And, that becomes, a very dark place for people. And you have to lift yourself up however you can do it. I mean everybody has a different way of doing it, whether it be writing or sometimes going to music or sometimes just taking a walk or going to Alaska.
Someone also asked like how can people keep their loved ones memory Well, I think you should always keep the memory alive.
Speaker 1: Like by talking about them to your children, doing things, like what are some
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's something I've kind of struggled with, because I would like my son Jed to know my dad, right, and to have some semblance of who he was, and it's kind of difficult to figure out how to do that. Know, I'd say in the book, know, I have this picture of my dad, his black and white photo that I used keep in my wallet. I now have Jody got me a skinny wallet,
Speaker 1: so I
Speaker 3: don't have room for photo. Can't do it anymore. But, you know, and I thought like, you know, one day no one's gonna even know what this picture Correct. Is so I, so I've talked to Jed about my dad and hopefully he'll get through this whole book
Speaker 2: at some point. You know what you should do? Kimmy's doing it now with me. If there are any old photos, she's taking the albums and putting them on, what do you think?
Speaker 1: Well, haven't started this process yet. Did wanna digitize all our old albums.
Speaker 2: All the grandparents, the great grandparents, people that her children won't know will all of a sudden have a picture to a name. I think it's a good idea. Mean, for all intents and purposes, nobody's gonna know, your children won't know me. What? Unless you hurry up.
What am I gonna be one hundred and ten walking with a walker? They're not gonna know me. So in other words, they'll know a picture that you've saved or that a video, of course-
Speaker 1: Or all of Grandma Gale's rules.
Speaker 2: You've got a load of stuff that are gonna know me. They're gonna say, Oh, that grandma was a pain in the neck. But I do think it's a good idea to have some kind of album that you can look back on, fond memories.
Speaker 1: You had
Speaker 2: a bar mitzvah, had certain things that maybe you can somehow keep for Jed.
Speaker 3: And there are some snippets in family movies where he was usually behind the camera. Right, that's the problem. But there are a couple of just really quick snippets, which I kind of treasure.
Speaker 2: You have to magnify those.
Speaker 3: What I don't have is any of it with his voice.
Speaker 2: Right, well that none of us have. Right. Oh God, Kimberly, I'm gonna have to record now, my voice. What do we do every We're
Speaker 1: on a podcast right now.
Speaker 3: I think you're gonna be okay.
Speaker 1: I think you're good. More than So I wanna talk with Father's Day coming up. What does this holiday mean to you? Now both as like a father and as a son?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well honestly it's not treated with that much fanfare in my family. Although to be fair neither Mother's Day isn't as well as Jody will point out. You know, Father's Day is nice in particular because Jed will be around, like I don't think he was last summer.
Speaker 2: 'll have a barbecue, you'll have hot dogs at your mom's house maybe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I think we're gonna use the occasion to sort of force him to have dinner with us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good leverage.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so he'll abide that. That may be the most we can get out of it.
Speaker 2: Every little bit. Baby steps.
Speaker 3: In terms of my father, you know it's more like the Yorzeit is kind of when I commune more with him and if I'm in the city, I'll go out to the cemetery and stuff, but yeah, it's Father's Day, there's not so much in that direction.
Speaker 1: Yeah. What would you say to fathers who are trying to be more present now?
Speaker 3: I think the important thing is just for the kids to know who you are, right? And like what makes you tick? Because otherwise, my dad was a lawyer. He worked in a skyscraper. That's what I knew of him as
Speaker 1: a And
Speaker 3: so however you communicate that, you know, for me it was music, but it wasn't intentional. You know, I just started singing to him the first night home from the hospital because he wouldn't couldn't get him to shut up basically and it couldn't nothing else was shocking. Crying. Crying. Yeah.
Yep. So I think whatever it is that brings you joy that you're passionate about, to somehow communicate that however you're able to do that.
Speaker 1: And on the flip side, what would you say to sons who are trying to better understand their fathers?
Speaker 3: I would say ask questions. Know, last summer my son, was our anniversary, Jody and my anniversary, so again we forced him to We hang out with went to dinner and he, I don't know, he's like, so he says to me, what were you like what was it like hanging out with you in college? And I realized I'd never asked my dad that. And actually I wrote a whole essay about that, which is going to be in time on Sunday for the Oh, social okay. But I would say, ask those questions.
It never occurred to me to ask my dad that. I think at some point, I say this in the book, at some point along the continuum of the father son relationship it sort of seems to become more permissible to ask questions like that and the challenge I think if your father isn't volunteering that is to ask those questions, know, who was your best friend? Like what was your favorite band? What'd you do on a typical Friday night in high school?
Speaker 1: We give that same exact advice to our audience as well, like when it comes to getting to know your grandparents more and like how they were as a young person and also like what makes them tick today. So I think true for every family member. And I think it's appreciated on the other side, people wanna tell their stories and wanna share.
Speaker 2: Shouldn't be secrets. Everybody should sort of open up because families now are so different. They're also all across the country. When I was growing up, everybody lived within a few miles of each other and we would get together, cousins and aunts and uncles, but now that's very, very rare. You have people living bicoastal and some in different countries.
So whenever you can and whenever you're together, ask those questions. What would you like to do for your birthday? What was your favorite activity when you were growing up? So that at least you get an idea of what the person was like. So I think that is important.
And today parents are very different than when I was growing up. There was a big We weren't friends, we were just We were children to be seen and not heard. I think that's one good thing that has happened now with families. Everybody's sort of got a voice in there whether you like it or not, and I think that's a good thing. I think it's a good thing.
Speaker 1: Matt, thank you so much for joining us. Love just speaking with Look at the book.
Speaker 2: Tell everyone. Everyone. Man, hold the book up. They'll see it on, who's listening to us. It's very nice.
It's a fellow, describe the cover because some people won't see it, some people just listen.
Speaker 3: It's an older guy and a younger guy, top down, view down on him also playing guitar.
Speaker 1: Awesome, and where can they get the buck?
Speaker 3: All the usual places.
Speaker 1: Good, amazing.
Speaker 3: Local indies, always recommended.
Speaker 1: Awesome, and we'll put the title in the description of the episode. Thank you so much everyone for listening, and we will see you next week. Remember to rate and review the show. Again, Grandma needs to keep her job.
Speaker 2: And now that everybody, all the dads out there, have a happy Father's
Speaker 1: Happy Father's Day. Bye. Bye.