Hello, my name is David Olds and I'm your cohost for Mississippi Happenings podcast.
Joining me each week is my friend and cohost, Mr.
Jim Newman.
Jim, hello, how are you?
Oh, if I were any better I'd be twins.
of course, of course.
As you know, each week we discuss the kitchen table issues that face, that all of us face in Mississippi.
Not only do we discuss those issues and offer information from experts in the field and solutions or plans of actions.
ah This week, we are again going to talk about
public education in Mississippi.
Our guest this week is Nancy Lume.
She is the executive director of Mississippi Parents Campaign.
She has held this position for the past 19 years.
And it is the mission of the Mississippi Parents Campaign to ensure that public education, parents, educators, and supporters have a voice in the legislature.
the legislative and policy decision that affect our children's education and a means by which they can hold legislators and policymakers accountable.
Nancy, it's good to see you again.
Thank you, it's great to be with you.
Nancy was here with us back in February and we had a good discussion, yes, about funding, about uh school choice vouchers.
And having said that, uh Jim, I will turn it over to you.
well, thank you.
you
Nancy, let's just start off.
Why are public uh taxpayer monies going to private schools?
Well, they shouldn't be.
And our constitution says that they shouldn't be.
ah There's a provision in our constitution that says that no public funds should go to a school that is not a free school.
Any school that charges tuition should not be eligible to receive public funds.
ah But there is a push from this voucher lobby from folks, most of it's coming from out of state, from folks that want to for.
variety of reasons want to have shift public funds away from public schools and into private schools.
And there are different reasons that people have for wanting this.
For example, one of the biggest advocates for school choice at the national level is Betsy DeVos.
She was the education secretary and President Trump's first term.
And she, her
particular angle on this is a little unique.
She believes strongly that all of our schools should be proselytizing.
She believes that all of our schools should be, essence indoctrinating children into Christianity.
uh And so she wants to see public funds going into private schools that uh
profess Christianity, teach Christianity.
So that's her angle.
uh I don't guess it dawns on her that that means that there also would be public funds going to other religions that also would be proselytizing and indoctrinating children in
religions that are not Christianity.
Then there is...
There are other organizations, for example, Americans for Prosperity is one of the national groups that pushes school choice.
Their angle, that is a libertarian organization.
And they really don't believe that government should be involved in education generally.
So they, in essence, believe that we should just give parents back the tax dollars that go to education and let them spend those funds however they want to.
rather than having any schools that are run by a state or regulated by the state.
And then there are some folks, know, there are a few folks who just have their children in private schools and would like for someone else to pay for it.
So there are different reasons, but overwhelmingly, clear majority of people, not only in Mississippi, but across the country.
oppose that.
They disagree with those positions.
Overwhelmingly, people believe that public funds should be reserved for public schools that are held to certain academic standards and that are accountable to taxpayers for the
way that they, the success that they have in moving children toward those standards.
And that because they are publicly funded, they have an obligation
to be accountable to taxpayers in all kinds of ways for how they spend their funds, um how they educate children, all of those things.
So public schools are accountable to the public in that way.
Private schools are not.
And so most people oppose school choice.
And we know that because
for all kinds of reasons.
I mean, we see that in polls and that sort of thing, but also because the issue of using public money to fund private schools has been on statewide ballots 13 times in other
states.
It's never been on the ballot in Mississippi, but over the years, it's been on the statewide ballot 13 times in other states, and it has lost overwhelmingly every single one
of those times.
It has never won.
School Choice has never won a ballot initiative in any state at any time.
It most recently was on the ballot in three states in last November's presidential election.
It was on the ballot in Colorado, Kentucky, and Nebraska, and was defeated overwhelmingly in each one of those states.
Some interesting data, Kentucky is a really interesting state to look at in terms of its initiative.
School choice, you know, as you know, Kentucky voted, for President Trump.
So, Kentuckians voted for, the majority of Kentuckians voted for President Trump.
School choice not only lost overwhelmingly, it lost in every single county.
It did not win in one county in Kentucky.
And here's the really interesting data point.
The higher in a county, the higher the margin of victory for President Trump, the higher the margin of defeat for school choice.
So uh it is clear that this is an area where even those people who are strong supporters of President Trump disagree with him on this issue.
Well, you mentioned earlier that the state constitution prohibits that.
Has anybody sued over this?
There has been one lawsuit filed, now there have been lawsuits in other states, ah yes, but in Mississippi where it is our constitutional provision that you're talking about,
there has been one lawsuit filed by Parents for Public Schools.
That is a different organization from the Parents Campaign.
We get confused with them a lot because we both have parents in our name and that's okay with us, they do great work.
So we don't mind people confusing us with Parents for Public Schools, but we also don't wanna take credit for the good work that they do.
Parents for public schools filed a lawsuit a couple of years ago over uh an appropriation of federal pandemic funds that were sent to Mississippi.
And then the legislature appropriated those funds for different purposes.
And one of those purposes was a $10 million appropriation for infrastructure improvements in private schools.
So those funds were not to go to any public school.
was $10 million designated
for private schools and specifically for infrastructure, which is interesting because the state of Mississippi doesn't provide facilities funding, infrastructure funding for public
schools.
So parents for public schools sued um over that appropriation and parents for public schools won in the lower courts.
The lower courts ruled in favor of the plaintiffs, parents for public schools that the constitution says
There shall not be any appropriation to a school that is not free.
um The state of Mississippi, which was the defense, appealed that to the Supreme Court, the state Supreme Court.
And interestingly, the state Supreme Court, rather than ruling on the merits of the case, which were clear, I mean, the constitution is perfectly clear.
about that.
The state supreme court ruled that parents for public schools, which is of course made up of parents who have children in public schools, the supreme court ruled that they did not
have standing to sue because they were not, there was no negative impact to them uh due to that appropriation, which of course you know you
If you're talking about ruling on the constitutionality of uh this constitutional provision that says funding cannot go to a private school, if public school parents don't
have standing to sue, I'm not sure who in Mississippi does have standing to sue, but that was the ruling and so the case was thrown out and not decided.
Well, it seems like you need to ah three or four parents who have children in public school to do the lawsuit because they will have standing.
Well, that is who sued.
That's who testified.
That's who was testifying, were parents who had their children in public school.
it the ah parents' organization?
The parents organization brought the lawsuit.
There were parents who were testifying.
Well, that's the problem.
You need the parents of children to have standing because they will be the ones ah most affected by the loss of public funds.
And that happens all around courts ah dismiss.
lawsuits because people don't have standing because they're not directly affected.
So you got to have parents that have children and they're the ones that have to file the lawsuits.
Mr.
and Mrs.
Jane Doe and Betty Doe, whatever the names are, ah to bring anything that's going to stand up in court.
ah
perhaps that was the mistake.
I suspect that that was the mistake.
I'm really interested in what you have to say about ah the special committee that Chad White has appointed to look into education, health care, and a couple of other things.
ah Are they having any public hearings?
And if they are,
They're certainly not letting us know about it.
So they are having committee meetings where they have invited speakers testifying.
I don't think that they are opening up as a hearing for public comment.
The first meeting was held about a month ago and had only, they had two representatives from Washington DC um that came, that they said were experts in school choice.
who came to present the pro-school choice side of the issue.
So there was no one allowed to speak at that first meeting who was opposed to school choice.
But the room was filled with people who were opposed to school choice.
ah They are having the second meeting next week on Thursday the 25th at 10 a.m.
Last I checked, it was not on the legislative website, but...
I checked in with the chairman and he confirmed for me that that is the time and date of the meeting.
It's going to be held at the Capitol in room 113.
We would encourage folks to come to that meeting again at 10 a.m.
and ah they have said that they will have uh speakers representing public schools and folks who don't agree.
who agree, people who support our constitution that says that no public funds should go to uh private schools.
Will you be able to speak?
No, I asked to be able to speak and was um not given a slot, although the chairman did say that he would put me on the list for the next There is going to be another meeting.
So he said he would put me on the list for the next meeting and let me know whether or not that works out.
Who is on the list?
I don't know that.
I haven't seen the agenda.
I have not seen the agenda.
I wonder if it's anybody.
article in Mississippi Today from March the 9th, and it talks about Representative Trey Lamar, who's out of Senatobia.
And he is the chair of the House Ways and Means Committee.
ah And it's very interesting that, uh of course, he's out of Senatobia, and Senatobia is the home of Magnolia.
Heights, the private school, and they received, Magnolia Heights received $386,500 through a program last year.
That's a big chunk of change.
Was that government money or federal government or state government?
This is, I'm trying to find out, Nancy, do you know the answer to that?
that is probably Children's Promise Act money and what that is, um it is a program that Chairman Lamar strongly supports and wants to increase.
It is a dollar-for-dollar tax credit, not a tax deduction, but a dollar-for-dollar tax credit for donations to private schools.
So in essence, the state is saying, hey, if you'll write a check
to your private school will pay you back.
pretend like you paid your taxes.
And not act like, not force you to, but you will reduce your tax bill by the amount of the check that you write to your private school.
So it is public money going to private schools.
Really the thing that the private schools love about the Children's Promise Act is that um there is no, they don't even, it's just,
a donation.
there not only is there no accountability for it, they don't even have to enroll a student.
There is zero strings attached to that.
When you think about all of the regulations and oversight and scrutiny that is um given to public schools for every penny that they spend, the way that they educate children, their
outcomes, that sort of thing.
The disparity is absolutely enormous there.
But this program, I would love to tell you about how this program came to be and um what has happened with it since then.
I would be glad to tell you about this program.
So in 2019, there was a bill that I believe it was the bond bill.
was...
a tax bill.
was not anything related to education.
It did not come through the education committee, so it was not on our radar.
But I do remember when it was uh described on the floor of each chamber.
And on the floor of each chamber, this bill was described, it was the Children's Promise Act.
uh members of the legislature were told that this was a wonderful program that was going to provide tax credits for donations
to organizations that serve and support children in foster care.
For example, uh Methodist Children's Home, Baptist Children's Village, these wonderful organizations that house and serve children in the foster care system.
So of course, who would oppose that?
one did.
What they were not told,
was that there was a provision written in and the program was to be capped at a maximum of tax credits, a maximum of five million dollars in tax credits for the year, per year.
So what the members of the Senate and House were not told in 2019 was that there was a provision written into the legislation.
that said that half of those tax credits would go to private schools, could go to private schools, would be designated for donations to private schools.
Now they made it look as if these were private schools who were serving this certain population of children because they said in the legislation, it said that a private school
could qualify
to receive the maximum allowable amount in tax credited donations if they met one of three provisions.
One of the provisions was that they served a student, there was no minimum, so one student who was in foster care, that was one way.
If a private school served one student who was in foster care, enrolled one student.
The other way was if the, um
school enrolled one student who was economically disadvantaged or qualified for free or reduced price lunch.
So if the school did one of those two things or if the school served one student who had a chronic illness or disability.
So that could be a food allergy, it could be asthma, it could be ADHD, it could be any kind of one student who
met any one of those criteria, then the school was eligible to receive the maximum amount in tax credit to donations.
can't imagine a school that does not have one of all of those kids, even in public schools.
private schools too, right, that's right.
That's right.
And so a hundred schools qualified, private schools qualified, right, all of them, basically qualified, all of them that wanted to qualify.
So we didn't catch that.
It wasn't an education bill.
It wasn't described as anything that was sending money to private schools.
And so we didn't catch it.
The next year, they came back with a little technical amendment in that bill.
or in a big tax bill that increased the $5 million total appropriation or total maximum tax credits by some amount.
And they increased that amount for a couple of years before we caught it.
By the time we caught it, the total maximum in tax credits was $18 million, $9 million of which goes to private schools.
So the maximum amount that one school is eligible for is $405,000.
And so we have tiny, tiny, tiny private schools that might serve 40 or 50 children who are eligible for up to $405,000 in tax credited donations that are just money that's skimmed
right off the top of our public funds going to these private schools.
And again,
no obligation to enroll any child, no obligation to serve children with special needs, no obligation to provide any special services for those categories that they have to meet,
you know, to be eligible to participate in the program.
Okay, now you just said 450,000 skimmed off the top of public funds.
405 per eligible school.
is $9 million of the tax credited donations annually that.
their donations to?
private schools.
that make it directly to the private school.
They write a check to the private school.
They sign up to get their tax credits on January 1st when it goes live.
And my understanding is that the tax credits that they apply for the tax credits um as soon as the website goes live on January 1st.
And my understanding is that within 10 minutes, they're all snapped up because private schools send out reminders ah at the end of the year.
Don't forget on January 1st to apply to get your tax credits.
Is there any way to know who's donating?
No, not to know who is donating, but you can see, and that is what Mississippi Today, that's what David was referring to in Mississippi Today's report.
There is, you can find out how much each school is getting and which schools have signed up to be eligible, ah but you cannot see who the donors are.
And this is private schools have said publicly that this is their preferred way to receive state funds because there are no strings attached.
MAIS is the largest organization, statewide organization for private schools, the Mississippi Association of Independent Schools.
And on their
On their year-end report, they had a page advising their people that they should not support vouchers because they were concerned that there might be some accountability that
would come with a voucher for tuition.
um And that it actually says on that page to beware that their
folks should be aware because school choice, the school choice movement, the voucher movement is really about equity and inclusion and that they should oppose that and instead
they should push for tax credits for donations to private schools.
How many of these schools are we talking about?
Last I looked, there were about 100 that had signed up to receive the tax credit.
Now we have, there were probably a couple hundred private schools in Mississippi.
Really?
Well, yes.
Some of them are tiny.
mean, you're talking about now there's this national push for what they call micro schools, which are just groups of parents that are really homeschooling their children
that get together and kind of share that responsibility for homeschooling their kids.
And so these micro schools might have 10 kids in them.
So you're talking, I mean, when you start looking at schools that are that small and serving that few students,
That adds a lot of schools.
Let me ask you something.
You may not know the answer and that's all right.
Given the vaccination situation, will private schools or our private schools required to follow the same vaccination laws as public schools?
No, a lot of them do require vaccinations, but they are not required to.
Now, let me also remind you that there was a ruling that, it was not legislation that was passed.
It was a court ruling.
It was a lawsuit.
alleging that Mississippians should be allowed a religious exemption for it was a violation of their rights not to allow a religious exemption.
So there had always been a medical exemption.
If your child, if there was a medical reason that your child should not take a vaccination that has always been allowed for your child to attend public schools without with a
medical exemption for vaccinations.
But this was a lawsuit alleging
that it was a violation of religious rights to force children to be vaccinated to attend public schools, that they should have a religious exemption.
When that lawsuit was filed against the state, our attorney general, Attorney General Fitch, agreed with the plaintiffs.
Instead of defending our state laws, she agreed with them.
And so that was that.
And so that was the ruling of the courts.
It's like, okay, both sides agree.
And so now without having legislation that passed our legislature, Mississippi has a religious exemption for vaccinations, which means that a parent can just say, my religion,
my personal religion, my religious beliefs are that my child should not be vaccinated.
There's not a list of approved religions.
No, you can have your own religion.
The religion of Jim Newman.
That's right.
I remember the days when Mississippi led the nation in vaccinations and we didn't have mumps, measles, rubella, any of that stuff.
We just didn't have it.
And we were the best state in the country.
And we're not gonna be.
ah
we are seeing our vaccination rates decline.
Yep.
The public school.
yeah, there's there's there's there probably not going to require ah all of the vaccinations that public schools do.
ah
in this upcoming legislature.
Have we got any...
ah
senators or legislators that are on our side.
Oh, most of them, yes.
Yes, we f-
going on?
Well, um our legislature has defeated the voucher programs that have been introduced every single year.
Multiple voucher provisions are introduced and those have been the large voucher programs have been defeated.
legislators have stood up with their constituents.
They know where their constituents stand on these issues.
so,
unlike most other states, Mississippi's legislators, I mean, we should be very proud of the fact that they have stood up.
They are getting a lot of pressure to support this school choice movement.
A lot of money is coming in from outside of the state.
The voucher lobby uh is primarily funded from out of state and they are pouring money into the state and staffing up here to pressure
legislators, are threatening to run opponents against them in the next election and fund their campaigns, that sort of thing.
So that's why it is so important for us, for public school supporters, to support our legislators who are standing with us.
And this is on both sides of the aisle.
We wouldn't be winning this in Mississippi if we didn't have legislators on both sides of the aisle standing with us.
And part of our job at the Parents Campaign is to let constituents know who these legislators are who are standing with their constituents so that they can support them,
continue to reach out to them, ask, you know, we want our moms and dads reaching out to their legislators saying, how can I help you?
I want to thank you for supporting us and we are standing with you.
We want you to know how grateful we are for
for your votes against these voucher provisions, against school choice.
We are standing with you.
We will continue to stand with you.
Please continue to stand with us.
um It's very, very important.
And we actually have, the Parents Campaign has organizations in other states coming to us saying, how in the world are you doing this?
And...
um
The answer is that we make sure that our moms and dads and teachers and concerned citizens in every corner of our state understand the importance of letting their legislators know
that we're paying attention, that we recognize their support, and that we're going to stand with them and we are going to have their backs in the next election.
When these school choice voucher proponents are coming after them.
We know who they are and we are paying attention and we are going to stand with them.
Kind of a switching gears here for a second.
uh Also in the Mississippi today, ah you wrote an article from June the 24th about uh Trump's big, uh beautiful bill.
uh tell us a little bit about that and how is this uh bill going to affect
maybe school vouchers and or what how is it going to affect public education?
Well, our focus was on just one provision.
That bill was very, very broad.
It was a budget reconciliation bill that covered all manner of things that we don't track.
But there was a voucher provision written into that bill that we are concerned about.
So written into the bill was a provision that creates a federal tax credit voucher program that uh if a state opts in, and this is an annual opt in by the state,
um We think probably the rules haven't all been written so the Department of Treasury, because it was a tax, this is budget bill, so the Department of Treasury will write the
rules that uh better define the program.
The language written into the bill itself was very sparse.
It's not very well defined.
a lot remains to be seen.
It looks like the person
who will decide whether or not the state, our state opts into the program will be the governor.
uh What the law says is the governor or whoever state, your state law designates as the person to determine federal taxation issues.
uh So I'm not aware of someone else that's designated to do that.
uh So the governor will decide whether or not we will participate, whether or not Mississippi will participate.
And if Mississippi does participate, then the governor will designate certain 501c3 organizations as um scholarship granting organizations, SGOs.
These will be 501c3 organizations that will receive the tax credited donations and then decide which students will get those scholarships.
Gee, David, we could apply.
So, well you could, you'd probably have to go to school, but you could have gone.
I'm not sure if that's what you want to do or not, but leave that up to you.
So, an individual taxpayer is eligible for tax credits for donations up to $1,700 annually to these SGOs, and then the rules, again,
much of the ruling hasn't been written yet and we're waiting to see but so far what was written into the bill was that the SGO, Scholarship Granting Organizations, must serve 10
or more students.
They can't give all the money to one student.
They have to grant scholarships to 10 or more students and they can't all attend the same school.
So two or more schools.
and the scholarship granting organization must spend 90 % of the donations on scholarships so they can keep 10 % of it for themselves.
uh And beyond that, can pretty much decide the size of the scholarships.
They don't all have to be the same size.
I they can pretty much write their own rules unless the Department of Treasury comes back and defines it further.
And so that is something that we oppose, clearly, obviously, for obvious reasons.
uh We oppose public money going to private schools.
think what we believe is that any school that receives public funds, they all should go by the same rules.
They all should be subject to the same rules.
And it's so interesting that some of the proponents of school choice like to talk about
competition and the benefits of competition, except that the rules are completely different.
um You have, you know, what we're talking about is two, is this two publicly funded systems of education, one that is accountable to taxpayers for how they spend money.
They are held to high academic standards and uh Mississippi's academic standards are
are very rigorous compared to other states.
They've been ah noted as such at the national level.
So one that has, where the schools are held to high rigorous standards, where accountable, they're accountable to those standards.
The public knows how well they're doing, moving students toward those standards.
Every penny is scrutinized.
They have audits.
There are all these, and everything they do is open to public scrutiny.
They're board minutes.
lesson plan, everything in a public school is budgets are open to public scrutiny.
And then you have this other publicly funded group of schools that have no rules at all.
can, and the public schools of course are open to every single child that lives within the district.
They do not get to pick and choose their students.
They're open to all children.
And if they, for the children they serve who have special needs, federal law requires
that any accommodation that the student qualifies for must be provided by the public school.
And remember that our constitution says that they cannot charge tuition.
They must be free.
So on the other side, you have these publicly funded schools that have no rules at all.
They pick and choose the students.
They only enroll the ones that they want.
They can kick them out for any reason at any time.
There is absolutely zero scrutiny of
how they spend their money, how they make their decisions.
Their boards are not open, their board meetings do not have to be open to the public.
They don't have to provide any transportation.
They can charge any tuition they want, including well above what a voucher would cover and they can raise.
And in other states, that's what's happened is that they've raised their tuition sometimes by the amount of the voucher.
So they have no rules that they follow.
A lot of a lot of double dipped dipping it appears.
well, and it's a huge double standard.
So who would create a publicly funded education system like that, where you have one set of schools that has all of these rules and regulations and accountability and the other
with nothing?
It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
And because of that, because public schools are held to high standards and accountable to those standards,
and private schools are not, there are some states that test their voucher students using the same state tests that the public schools students take.
And in all of those instances, the public schools outperform the private schools, even though the private schools are picking and choosing their students.
Got it.
What are the things that you, and I know in the last conversation we had back in February, you are a big proponent and you love to talk about the success in public education in
Mississippi.
ah Tell us about what's, I think Mississippi had some gains recently, didn't we?
We are so proud of our public schools.
know, when we, when, and this is on national tests where we have apples to apples comparisons with all states and Department of Defense schools.
And, and you know, when those tests were first given back in 1992, Mississippi was so far behind, um way back in last, and last place.
If you look at that trajectory, every year since then, we've been closing that gap.
So, you know, a lot of people want you to believe that all of the progress has been made uh just in the last decade or so.
And that's simply not true.
We've been closing that gap for a long time.
It took a long time for us to catch next to last.
mean, we knew a way back, but in the last row.
So our students are tested on these national tests in reading and math in grades uh four and eighth, fourth grade and eighth grade.
And it's every other year that the test is given.
So most recently, the test was given in 2024.
And our test scores, our average test scores in Mississippi in fourth grade reading are now ninth in the country.
And that includes Department of Defense schools.
And so if you only look at states, we're eighth in the country.
There are only seven states that have a higher average test scores than we do in fourth grade reading.
We are 16th in math, in fourth grade math.
there again, Department of Defense is one of those.
If you look at only states, we're 15th, so only 14 states score higher than we do in math.
We're so proud of that.
Our teachers and students are doing such a good job.
And again, they've been closing that gap for a really long time.
And it's another reason that folks all across Mississippi are so proud of.
They love their public schools.
And as you all know, our public schools are the cornerstones of our communities.
You know, there is there is absolutely no exception in Mississippi to the fact that where we have strong, thriving communities, we have strong, thriving public schools.
And where we have struggling public schools, we have struggling communities.
And so our city leaders have recognized this.
They understand that the threat, that this school choice threat is not just to their public schools, it's to their cities.
It's to their whole communities.
And that is why I don't know if you all have heard this news, but we now have
city municipal boards that are weighing in on this issue and adopting resolutions opposing school choice.
So these resolutions have now passed in three municipal boards unanimously.
Clinton, Pearl, and Florence have now passed resolutions opposing school choice and urging their delegations
the state legislature and Governor Reeves to oppose school choice and to invest in public schools.
Well, let me ask you, since they're doing that, oh excuse me.
Are the rural communities, and I mean the really rural communities, are they getting enough funding to be included in this number nine and reading and number 14?
Are they in that or are they struggling still?
Because I've been to some of the schools in southern Lee County and
their facilities need lots and lots of money.
That's a wonderful point.
And yes, and you know, there's some very interesting national research recently that shows how important facilities are to student achievement.
That, you know, if you've got rain pouring in your roof and your heat and air don't work and your bathrooms don't work, it's very hard for children to learn.
And so this is a huge issue and I'm glad that you bring this up, Jim, because uh the state of Mississippi does not provide any state funding for facilities.
that is left to the local taxpayers.
So local taxpayers have to pass bond issues to repair or renovate or build new facilities.
And that is why you see such terrible discrepancies across the state in the quality of facilities.
I personally believe that it is an issue that the legislature needs to address if they want to make sure that
Every Mississippi child has an equal opportunity to get a terrific education.
Our schools, even those rural schools, are truly doing a very, very good job.
They have improved dramatically over the years.
We now only have, I believe it's three school districts that are rated F out of 140.
ah
And so we our school districts have really come a long way and are doing very well.
But these facility, this facilities issue is a big one and it makes a big difference.
Our our funding per student that districts get our school funding formula is a very equitable formula and it does account for uh the circumstances and needs of students and
individual school districts.
For example, districts with high poverty rates get additional funding for that because we know that children who grow up in homes that don't have a lot of resources to provide them
in terms of print materials or maybe a high quality pre-K education and that sort of thing start out behind and need some additional help in school to catch up and level the playing
field.
Children with special needs need additional funding.
um There are lots of different reasons why
Districts might, children who don't speak English and need help learning our language so that they can learn well.
School districts need extra resources to provide that level of education for those children.
And our funding formula does a good job of providing for those individual needs, but we do not do a good job on the facilities front.
And as you say, the discrepancy is very real and um it's disappointing that we
that we would be okay with Mississippi children going to school in facilities where the heat and air units don't work or the bathrooms aren't operational or the roof leaks.
mean, that's third world stuff and we should not be okay with that.
I've been in a classroom where it was raining and there were buckets to catch the water and the bathroom facilities were rusted and kids don't get good educations.
They get the attitude that nobody cares.
It's a terrible message to send our children.
It really is.
And those communities want to provide for their children, but we have places in Mississippi where a mill just doesn't produce enough.
They could pass a bond issue and it would never raise enough money to provide the kind of maintenance that they need on their facilities or certainly not build a new facility.
So I think in those cases, the state should step in and help.
Yeah, there's, I mean, we've got so many small towns that do not have a big enough tax base that they need extra help.
And it seems to me that the state does not make any exceptions for those particular cases, but they need to because.
to and saying, oh, we'll let them go to a different school district if their parents can provide their transportation over there every morning and every afternoon.
I mean, you know, you're just, that is such an absurd uh way to pretend that we are addressing struggling schools is to say, yes, parents, if you can transport your children
twice a day to and from school,
We'll let you go somewhere else.
We're going to leave all these other children over here in a facility that is disgraceful, but we're going to pat ourselves on the back and pretend that we've done something great
for children who are in struggling schools.
It is insincere and it is just absurd.
And to think that those children are A, going to be admitted into a private school or
B, be able to pay the difference between what a voucher would pay and the tuition that is charged.
Or C, be able to find a private school that will meet their children's special needs or the needs that they have for intervention or whatever it is.
That's just not reality.
And that's what we're seeing in these other states that pass these school choice provisions.
What we are seeing in other states is it's a boon for more fluent parents.
who already have their children in private schools.
In states that pass these voucher programs, overwhelmingly, the vouchers are going to families whose children already were enrolled in the private schools before the voucher
law passed.
So the state is just writing a check to pay the tuition of kids who were already in private schools and whose parents already had the means to pay for that private school.
The state sees no benefit at all.
There's no change.
They're just writing a check to pay the tuition of a child who was already attending private school.
One of the things I've heard, I don't know whether you have, but what I've heard more than once is that many of the private schools, the student population is made up of anywhere
from 25 to 50 % scholarships.
And I don't know those numbers.
I don't know that.
I didn't know whether you'd heard anything or had any of those facts.
But even if they're on scholarships, they receive a voucher.
Yes.
call that a scholarship, but
The uh Nancy, the last time you're here, we also talked about the Tim Tebow Act uh allowing home school students to participate in extracurricular activities and sports.
What's the latest on that?
That is a provision that is still being pushed by the school choice proponents, uh but it is something that is widely uh opposed in Mississippi by voters.
What the bill does is allow children who are being homeschooled to attend, to participate in public school activities.
And the problem with that is, well, there are several problems with that.
One problem with that, a primary problem with that is that uh
Public school children are required to maintain a 2.0 grade point average to be able to participate in extracurricular activities to make sure that the number one priority is
academics.
And so if you're letting homeschooled children whose parents are grading their papers um participate, you clearly do not have a level playing field in regard to that rule.
um
The other thing is that for coaches, there can be an issue where, know, um if this is a child who is enrolled in your school, they're in school all day long, you know the
parents, you have a relationship with their parents.
um It's just easier to have everybody kind of understanding the rules, understanding how your school operates, the expectations.
We're talking about kids putting on a jersey and representing your school, but not wanting to participate in anything else that your school does, only the sport that he or she wants
to play.
And so it also just kind of creates some issues there for the coaches with expectations and discipline and that sort of thing.
But the other thing that is very worrisome to me about particularly about that 2.0 grade point average requirement is that it actually incentivizes struggling students to drop out
of school because in Mississippi there is no regulation at all of homeschooling.
The only thing a parent has to do to homeschool a child
is to fill out a few lines on a form at the Department of Education saying, I'm going to homeschool my child.
There doesn't have to be any evidence at all that there is any academic preparation taking place, none.
They don't even have to pretend.
They just fill out a form saying, I'm gonna homeschool my child.
So if you've got a child who is struggling but wants to play that sport, um
the incentive would be just drop out of school.
Just have your parents sign a form saying you're gonna be homeschooled.
They don't really have to do anything.
They don't have to be home with you.
And you can still stay on that team and keep your spot.
And so I worry about that because we hear from folks who deal with children who've been abandoned, who've children.
Unfortunately, you know, we do have situations in Mississippi where
Children don't get the care that they need at home.
And I have heard from multiple people who are engaged with those children in a variety of ways that many of the children of the neglect cases that they see are children who have
had parents fill out a form saying that they're being homeschooled and those children are receiving no education whatsoever at home.
Their parents are just tired of dealing with maybe there's a discipline issue in the school or whatever that the parents are tired of dealing with.
And so they just check their kids out and say, we're going to homeschool, but the kids are getting nothing.
And as we see the homeschool numbers escalate, we're seeing more and more cases like that.
Your public school teachers can tell you.
that they know a lot of those kids and they know what the history is in those cases.
And it's very, very sad.
And for some of these children, it's dangerous.
And um it worries me that we would pass a law that would say, hey, if you want to drop out of school, you can just pretend you're homeschooling and we'll still let you participate
in the activities and have all the fun.
I think that is a very dangerous road for us to go down.
And it's not fair to the kids in the public schools who are playing by the rules.
Well, it's not fair to the kids that are being homeschooled either.
It's not.
because they're being taken advantage of ah because they're really not getting educated.
we wrap it up, Nancy, it's been so good to see you again and ah for you to come and share your information with us.
What is, let me start all over.
ah What do you need from us and what do you need from the parents and what do you need for our
uh leaders, ah what do you need from them, from all of us to help save public education?
So we need to make sure that legislators understand that their constituents oppose school choice, that they support strong investments in public schools, fully funded public
schools, uh decent facilities for every child, high quality pre-K experiences for our children.
And the only way that legislators are going to know that for sure is if our folks call them.
They need to hear from their constituents at home.
especially encourage our folks who know that their legislators are supporters of public schools.
Please don't take them for granted.
Let them hear from you.
They need to know that you recognize their support and that you are standing with them and that as this voucher lobby is coming after them, you will have their backs.
We encourage cities to pass these resolutions.
We encourage people to write opinion pieces in their newspapers in support.
of public schools and opposing school choice, and call the governor, the speaker of the house, the lieutenant governor, and by all means, call your legislators.
And if you want to know how to reach them, go on our website at msparentscampaign.org.
We've got a webpage for each school district that has all of your legislators who represent your school district and their contact information and their voting records.
um
But let them hear from you.
And if you have questions about that, us.
can Google a parent's campaign.
You'll find us and give us a call.
And we would love to engage you in what we are doing to support your public schools and those terrific legislators who year after year after year have been shutting down the
school choice movement and deserve our thanks and praise.
Can parents join the parents campaign?
All they have to do is sign up to get our notifications or follow us on social media.
There's no cost for any of our services.
We are nonpartisan and we are a nonprofit organization that we're funded through donations and that sort of thing.
And so there's no cost to participate, but we would love to have folks join our effort.
Good.
I've enjoyed it and I've learned a lot.
Well, I've loved being with you.
Thank you.
Ha
All right, Jim, we need to talk a little bit about something else that's a subject very dear to your heart.
very dear to my heart.
It's because I have to write you a check every month for these podcasts to continue.
ah Yes, folks, podcasts do cost money and we have a few contributors, not nearly enough to cover the total expense, but David and I seem to always come through and make it up.
but we would encourage anybody that would like to donate because they think what we're doing is worthwhile.
We are a 501C3.
It is a tax-exempt donation and David can tell you how you can get us the money.
And just for clarification, those checks are made out to Mississippi Happenings.
ah Yes, uh there's several ways that you could donate.
And yes, we do want you to subscribe.
Yes, we do want sponsors.
And yes, donations are extremely uh appreciated.
uh We have a cash app.
It's uh the dollar sign Mississippi Happenings.
We have a PayPal, is at Ms.
At Ms.
Happenings.
ah And yes, we also, you can also now make donations on our website, which is Mshappenings.org.
So yes, we would love to hear from you.
oh Yes, as far as donations, but we do want to hear from you.
We want to hear uh things that you like about our program, things you don't like about our program, things that are just.
So, we do want to hear from you.
the next uh probably I think the next episode we are going to talk uh in depth with Kat O'Shea and she's going to share with us uh Trump's big beautiful bill which we talked
briefly today but she's going to go and break it down for us as well.
So thank you for listening.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for watching and as always
May we never become indifferent to the suffering of others.
Thanks so much.