[00:00:00] Antony Whitaker: Hey, it's Antony Whitaker here and welcome to today's episode of the Grow My Salon Business Podcast. And whether this is your first time or perhaps you're a regular listener, either way, thank you for tuning in today. Now, in case you don't already know, video versions of our podcast are also now available on our YouTube channel.
[00:00:24] Antony Whitaker: So if you want to put faces to the names, then head on over to Grow My Salon Business on YouTube and don't forget to like and subscribe to the channel. So with that said, on with today's episode. Now, today's guest is a London based hairdresser, barber, fellow podcaster, and salon owner, Anthony Laban.
[00:00:45] Antony Whitaker: Anthony has two salons and two barbershops. And so today I'm going to talk to him about both the challenges and the opportunities that those very similar, but very different businesses present. So today's podcast, we're going to discuss clothing. Which of the two business models is it easier to manage and recruit for how the barbershop of today is evolving and why would you have four smaller businesses that are in close proximity to each other instead of one bigger space that accommodates them all? And lots more. 
[00:01:17] Antony Whitaker: So without further ado, 
[00:01:19] Antony Whitaker: welcome to the show, Anthony Laban. 
[00:01:21] Anthony Laban: Hi, Antony. Thanks for having me on. How are you doing? 
[00:01:24] Antony Whitaker: I'm very well, thanks. It's sort of the two Antonys. It's going to be like, who's talking here? But you know, you're the guest, so, uh, you're going to be doing most of the talking. So, okay, listen, I want to jump straight in the deep end and just ask you this question straight up. You've got two barbershops and you've got two salons.
[00:01:40] Antony Whitaker: And from what I'm aware, they're in very close proximity. So the first thing I'm thinking of was, well, why doesn't he just have one big salon? That would be, surely that would be easier. 
[00:01:51] Antony Whitaker: Uh, so tell us the story behind that.
[00:01:53] Anthony Laban: I mean, for 20 years I had, A huge store, you know, it was 3, 000 square feet. At one point we had 46, 47 staff. We had beauty rooms and a nail bar and a coffee shop and all that kind of shebang, which we had for 20 years. And I think for probably 12 of those, I really enjoyed it. Um, and then, I think I just started getting really bored.
[00:02:23] Anthony Laban: I found filling a busy, a big store, uh, relentless. You know, I was constantly pushing to fill that chair, introduce the new stylist, fill them up, cover someone leaving, and move their clients over. So I felt like I was playing some sort of, uh, kind of, uh, game of Jenga that I was constantly kind of spinning so many plates.
[00:02:47] Anthony Laban: Um, and then my lease finished. And so when my lease finished, it was, you know, I handed the building back. I was ready to leave. And there was kind of a little bit of a movement that I was hearing about that was more boutique salon. Um, there were more and more certainly kind of New York. I was hearing about small boutique salons and that appealed.
[00:03:11] Anthony Laban: So that's where it started. I went off and opened up Anthony Laban home, uh, which was initially kind of my studio. I just wanted somewhere for me to look after my clients, uh, with a technician. Um, and that took off really well, very quickly, uh, within the first year, we were pretty much at capacity, um, and we realized that although we've only got four chairs in there, um, it, it had a, it had a maximum that we reach fast.
[00:03:41] Antony Whitaker: Right.
[00:03:42] Anthony Laban: Um,
[00:03:43] Antony Whitaker: Let me just ask you one
[00:03:44] Anthony Laban: And that was the downside, if you like.
[00:03:46] Antony Whitaker: Right. Let me just ask you one thing. I noticed when you were talking about the big salon, you referred 
[00:03:51] Antony Whitaker: to it as a store. Was, Was, that a conscious decision? Was it, was there a lot of retail or something that went on in it? 
[00:04:00] Anthony Laban: Um, I kind of like the way, I like the word store. I still call all of our, our stores, stores. Um, I've always thinking myself more as a kind of store owner, as a shopkeeper. Um, I like that. I like that. I like that role of being kind of in the heart of the community.
[00:04:18] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:04:18] Anthony Laban: I think salon never felt like it sat well on me, I don't think.
[00:04:23] Anthony Laban: I never felt like a salon owner. I like being a, I like owning a store. 
[00:04:28] Antony Whitaker: Um, good, good. Okay. No, I was just curious because there is a bit of a trend in that direction again at the moment to expand on the offering that you have, the retail offering, and, um, I'm seeing, you know, more salons that are straying into what might've been traditionally other areas. You've already mentioned that you did have a coffee shop in there.
[00:04:50] Antony Whitaker: And so I was just wondering, and now this new one, you just referred to it as Anthony Laban home. And so, I wondered if there was like a, a different sort of retail vibe going off there, that it wasn't just about, you know, uh, uh, hair. So, I've got that wrong. Obviously, it is very much a hair salon, but you just like that, you know, calling it Anthony Laban home as opposed to Anthony Laban salon.
[00:05:15] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:05:17] Anthony Laban: Yeah, well, I think with all four having different names, it, they kind of have their own entity. So, um, so yeah, I kind of differentiate by calling each one by its proper name, if you like. Um, the big store originally was called Anthony Laban.
[00:05:34] Antony Whitaker: Right. Okay. And so there, therein comes another question for me because, you know, just talking about your two salons at the moment. Well, they're not salons. They're, they're stores. Just talking about your two stores. Uh, and we haven't got to the barbering side of things yet. They've got different names, as you just said.
[00:05:55] Antony Whitaker: So again, I'm curious from a marketing perspective, why has he done that? Surely it would be more cost effective if they both had the name but knowing you that there's a very clear reason why you've done that So talk to us about that because I believe that the second salon you've just called mint.
[00:06:13] Anthony Laban: That's correct, yeah, so, um, well, Anthony Laban home became Anthony Laban Home because Uh, someone, when I shut my old business down, someone nabbed the AnthonyLaban.com. So um, I needed a new name for the website, and I wanted to keep the name on because obviously it was recognized. Um, and as it was going to be somewhere I worked, I don't feel too much like a, an atelier kind of guy. Um, and so it became Anthony Laban, it was going to be at home and then it just became Anthony Laban
[00:06:48] Antony Whitaker: right. It's not because you live there,
[00:06:53] Anthony Laban: no, I definitely always wanted it to be the place that everyone knew I was working in. Um, and, that was, that was where it came from.
[00:07:00] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, so
[00:07:02] Anthony Laban: the names given, the other shops got different names really because I think they had a different, with Mint I wanted to see a salon run that wasn't Reliant on my reputation.
[00:07:14] Anthony Laban: I wanted to set up my own competition. Um, We opened with a very different price list looking for a very different audience with a very different marketing, um and we nearly called it Anthony Laban away, but decided against that. Um, and then really mint, I mean, mint's quite a London word for looking good, looking mint.
[00:07:40] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, I suppose it is. Yeah. Yeah
[00:07:41] Anthony Laban: it became, it became mint hair London.
[00:07:44] Antony Whitaker: Right. So it wasn't an existing salon that you bought that came available and you thought, well, I may as well own the competition. Was it that, or did you start it from scratch?
[00:07:55] Anthony Laban: Yeah, no, we started from scratch. It had been an antique shop. So, um, about a year into opening Anthony Laban home, I was walking to work and bumped into, well, walked past the store with a guy who was very aggressively emptying out his shelving units. and throwing everything into rubble stacks. And I stood and had a chat with him, um, and he shut down.
[00:08:19] Anthony Laban: He's like, oh no, um, he was, he was selling, um, like New England shutters for people's home's windows. Um, and he just shut the business. I popped my head through the door and had a look, and I was like, this would be a really cute barbershop. Um, and one of the ideas that have come from having the small shop is, wives, husbands didn't want to come into this little store that was filled with women getting their highlights done and having colors on and, and the salon experience. Um, and so the idea became, let's open up this little tiny little barbershop. 
[00:08:59] Anthony Laban: by the time I arrived at work, 20 minutes after my walk started. Um, I'd spoken to the landlady and, um, um, and then I kind of arrived at work and explained to the team that I think we were opening up a, another shop.
[00:09:13] Antony Whitaker: So, so that was literally on, on the walk to work, you stumble across something, stick your head in the window and, uh, 
[00:09:21] Antony Whitaker: job done by the time you've walked another couple of hundred meters
[00:09:24] Anthony Laban: yeah, no, it really was. It was that, and I kind of, I quite like it when things happen with a kind of naturalness to them. Um, it's a very small shop. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of 10 foot square, so it's really tiny. Um, and we've got two barber's chairs in there. But it became, it became Anthony Laban Barbershop.
[00:09:44] Anthony Laban: um, my um, my wife actually kind of was the one that got involved in setting that and running that for me as I was still very early days in the, um, in the salon so we launched and we put the name all over it, really. Um, wives would know where to send their husbands or boyfriends and sons, if you like.
[00:10:04] Antony Whitaker: Right. Okay. And from a marketing perspective, that worked.
[00:10:10] Anthony Laban: yeah, it was great. I mean, we, you know, we lost a lot of the guys that came in to us. Um, but it became this kind of path that we ended up being, um, separate hairdressing and barbershops. Um, about three years later, the building next door to the barbers, which was an antique shop, shut down, and the landlady was the same woman, and she asked if I wanted to expand the barbershop into a bigger store.
[00:10:39] Antony Whitaker: Hmm. Oh,
[00:10:40] Anthony Laban: And that was the birth of Mint, where, again, I'd arrived at work, spoke to the team, and, um, one of my, one of my assistants who worked in the big store, who'd joined me at 16, uh, came to me and went, if you're thinking about that shop, I really want to run something. I really want to do something. She felt like she'd kind of outgrown the little boutique.
[00:11:04] Anthony Laban: She was kind of in a tiny four chair shop. She was in my shadow, I guess. Um, and so we did it and we put, we put, um, Ellie who, like I said, joined me at 16, I trained her, she'd worked with me and she was 24, I think, when we launched Mint. Um, she was really involved in the design, the look, and she wanted to aim it at up, you know, under 24s.
[00:11:31] Anthony Laban: She was like, I want to aim for teens to 24s. I want to kind of hip, uh, younger crowd. 
[00:11:38] Antony Whitaker: Okay.
[00:11:38] Antony Whitaker: So it's been this sort of natural expansion because is mint from what I've seen on your 
[00:11:44] Antony Whitaker: website, it's, um, is it more colour focused than Anthony Laban home?
[00:11:50] Antony Whitaker: Or have I read that wrong? It just seemed from what I read that it was more about colour.
[00:11:54] Anthony Laban: Yeah, I mean, Anthony Laban home does a huge amount of colour and we have a very strong colour business. But, but Mint certainly promotes itself as, um, a kind of fashionable colour salon. Um, and they've done a lot of work in that kind of birth of, when balayage all kind of stuff really kind of was, was hammering around.
[00:12:16] Anthony Laban: Um, it really embraced that and it was right in the hub of all of that. So I think it's marketing and it's imagery is is very much like that. Although now at the moment Mint's growing up, Ellie's still running and Ellie is now uh, 30, 31 and so she's maturing with her clientele. So um, we are in the process of kind of slight, slight remodel um, and we are promoting them as the colour experts.
[00:12:43] Antony Whitaker: Yep. So, how close are the four stores?
[00:12:48] Anthony Laban: Uh, it's between all four. It's about a 20-minute walk.
[00:12:53] Antony Whitaker: All right. Okay. So it's not, not that close. Right. So two of them are next door 
[00:12:56] Antony Whitaker: to each other, but then the other two are spread out a little bit more than that. Right. Okay. But as the person who owns all four of them, you know, who are paying the rent every month to four different checks that are getting written out or however you pay it.
[00:13:10] Antony Whitaker: Um, do you ever, ever stop to think, well, you know, it's whatever thousand for this one, whatever thousand for 
[00:13:15] Antony Whitaker: that one, whatever thousand for the other and the other add that together. 
[00:13:20] Antony Whitaker: I could get one bigger space. It'd be easier to manage. Do you ever, do you ever go back to that thought?
[00:13:25] Anthony Laban: Uh, I'll be honest with you. I hated, by the time we closed the large shop, I hated it so much, um, that it kind of brings me out in hives, the thought of having, um, a huge kind of palace of hairdressing.
[00:13:39] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:13:40] Anthony Laban: and I love that they're, they all look very different. Um, they have a really different vibe. They have each store has kind of their own kind of little family, uh, dynamic in them.
[00:13:52] Anthony Laban: Um, and I'm, um, yeah, I, I, I rarely work in any of the others. Um, I've never worked in Mint. I've only ever worked in one of the barbershops occasionally. Um, so no, I've got no words. I mean, I think I like the fact that we have these, we've embraced and stayed with the boutique. Um, the clients really like it.
[00:14:14] Anthony Laban: They feel. Really part of it. Um, whether they're the first client coming into an empty shop Or they arrive in the middle of a maelstrom and join a pack shop. Um, they all feel very comfortable in these tiny spaces. You know, the biggest shop is, gosh, 30 metres square or something?
[00:14:35] Antony Whitaker: Okay. So they're all small. Yeah. Okay. Got it. All right. Um, so you said that you work in Anthony Laban home, so I'm assuming that you're not a barber. You're not a trained barber. You, you've sort of come into the industry as a, as a, stylist. Is that sort of, you know, what the, your origins are?
[00:14:54] Anthony Laban: Uh, yeah, I mean, I trained as a hairdresser, yeah, back in, um, I was a hairdresser in the 80s, um, and, uh, Yeah, the 80s, we did a lot of, we did use quite a lot of clipper work. Um, there was Mohawks and a lot of, a lot of, um, short haircuts. Um, but no, I trained as a, as a, as a stylist. Um, and then, um, having redone the barbershop, God, 11 years ago, I, um, uh, uh, submerged myself in the culture and retrained myself to, to barbering, working with the barbers.
[00:15:29] Anthony Laban: and um, and remembering a lot of my barbering skills.
[00:15:34] Antony Whitaker: because, you
[00:15:35] Anthony Laban: gone off and learned to wet shave and all that kind of thing as well.
[00:15:38] Antony Whitaker: right. Okay. So I, I'm guessing now 10, 15 years ago, whole barbering industry completely became so cool and popular again. Were you already in the game at that time or, you know, did you see that? Hey, the time is right now. I'm going to get back into the barber shop. I'm just trying to get that sort of timeline right.
[00:16:03] Anthony Laban: Yeah, no, it was um, it was definitely before the kind of real kind of um, tsunami of barbershops started. It still wasn't, it hadn't found a cool space yet. Um, we, we were unusual when I opened up, we were the only kind of groovy little barbershop. Everything else was, was much more your kind of 10-pound clip joint.
[00:16:28] Anthony Laban: Um, and that's why we found that early success because we were doing. really good quality haircutting in a kind of barbershop, um, uh, more traditional looking barbershop space.
[00:16:43] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So from a business point of view, I mean, you're running these four businesses. I'm going to assume that they're four separate entities. Are they, do you, do you get, um, what I'm asking you is do you get four separate profit and losses?
[00:16:59] Anthony Laban: Uh, we have three. So we have a mint and Anthony Laban run as one company.
[00:17:05] Antony Whitaker: Right.
[00:17:06] Anthony Laban: Um, and the two barbershops are two separate entities.
[00:17:10] Antony Whitaker: Right. So, so what is more profitable? Is it running a barbershop or is it running a ladies salon for want of a better word?
[00:17:23] Anthony Laban: Um, I, I, I mean, I guess collectively it's, it's where we look at our income. So, So, we, we have a percentage comes from here, a percentage comes from, from there. Obviously, with the salons, they're in one company, so we have seven chairs in that company. Uh, so that generates the most amount of turnover, um, and the most amount of profit.
[00:17:46] Antony Whitaker: Right.
[00:17:46] Anthony Laban: Um, but the, the two barbershops have a lower footprint, um, and, and still turn profit, you know, still turn a good profit.
[00:17:55] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. But as a, as a sort of a percentage, I'm not asking for a, a pound value is how much money you make, uh, but as a, as a percentage of the total sales, do you generally find that the barbershop is more profitable or the, salons are more profitable.
[00:18:13] Anthony Laban: Uh, yeah, we, we make more profit per pound from the lady's salon
[00:18:18] Antony Whitaker: Oh, okay.
[00:18:19] Anthony Laban: And, and a lot of that's the chemical work. We do so much chemical work that I think the profit line in there is, is stronger.
[00:18:26] Antony Whitaker: yeah. Well, that's interesting. 'cause oftentimes people say the opposite. Uh, oftentimes people say the barbershop's more profitable because they don't have all that inventory. And then it's a much more simple business model and they often spend less on training. There's often not apprentices. There's often not a receptionist.
[00:18:46] Antony Whitaker: And so I was thinking he's probably going to say the barbershops are more profitable because the ladies salons tend to have more money invested in training, uh, definitely a lot more inventory on the shelf and usually a receptionist. Whereas the barbershops, Don't have those things. So I often find that when I talk to people that do have both, that they'll come out and say that it's the barbershop that is more profit per pound or per dollar or whatever your currency is.
[00:19:12] Antony Whitaker: So, uh, that's interesting. So, so you're colour heavy. I, I agree with you that, you know, colour produces a lot more, a lot of revenue, you know, will come from the colour side of things. Sorry, you were going to say something there. Yeah.
[00:19:25] Anthony Laban: and well, we don't have, we don't have any receptionist at all. Um, so in my previous life with the biggest store, we had a, a reception team of kind of five people and all that kind of stuff. Um, and when we reopened, there just wasn't physically the space to build a reception. Uh, so, yeah. And then you kind of go, well, we've got a touch screen.
[00:19:48] Anthony Laban: Most people have booked, if we can encourage people to book online, the phone doesn't ring a lot. Uh, the bills can be taken in the chair. Um, and so there was, we, we took, we have no receptionists in any of the stores at all. Um, we do have apprentices in the salons. Um, and we have, uh, we kind of quite old school, bring them up as, as, as color techs quite quickly.
[00:20:14] Anthony Laban: So the apprentices within their first year. what we used to call tinter and permers. So they'll immediately be applying colours and working with clients and kind of earning their keep, if you like. Um, and then we, and then we always have a young junior apprentice that's coming up who's, um, who's, who's not profitable, if you like,
[00:20:38] Antony Whitaker: Um, Yeah, Yeah, I mean, again, that's
[00:20:40] Anthony Laban: not carrying a huge amount of staff.
[00:20:42] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, sure. Well, someone who's in both areas, you know, you can sort of see where these, uh, cost savings can be made and someone who's been in the industry a long time as well. You know you uh, you were actually telling me a story when we last spoke to each other, you know a month or so ago About somebody that you knew who was in business who was losing a lot of money and you had that conversation with him Which triggered that question that I just asked you, you know about well, why don't you get rid of your front desk person.
[00:21:11] Antony Whitaker: Why don't you get rid of like, I forget what it was. You had two or three things that you said to him. And I remember you said to me that you then bumped into him a month later. And he said, Oh my God, that's made so much difference. It's really turned my business around because oftentimes with small salons, you simply can't afford.
[00:21:28] Antony Whitaker: You know, a front desk person. When people ask me, you know, actually I'm thinking of getting the front desk person, the first question I ask him is, well, how many income producers do you have in the salon? Because I think that as a ballpark, it's really difficult to come down with an exact figure, but unless you've got at least six money producers, you simply aren't producing enough revenue to have someone in there as a receptionist, you know, in most salons. Um, so yeah, it's interesting how, uh, especially these days with no matter where you are in the world, economically, there's a lot of pressure
[00:22:00] Antony Whitaker: on small businesses that people are looking at, well, where can. Uh, savings be made, and it's a shame that and oftentimes it is about not employing apprentices, et cetera, and with the tech side of things as well, um, it's becoming easier and easier to not have a front desk person or have less front desk people, um, even if you have a big salon, because people can book online and, you know, so much of the payment process inside of stuff is starting to become more and more automated as well.
[00:22:32] Antony Whitaker: But anyway, um, I don't want to take over what I wanted to ask you about. Um, I saw also on your, one of your websites that you have hair replacement systems. And that intrigued me as well because you don't see a lot of that about. So, Talk to us about that. What part of your business, um, is that, and, and, you know, how does that work?
[00:22:57] Antony Whitaker: Obviously you're a good, uh, a good, a good client yourself.
[00:23:04] Anthony Laban: Well, I mean, I think certainly for the barbershop, the Novo Cabela is the company we started working with, a really lovely company. Um, and initially, um, lots of conversations that the barbers wanted to bring it in. Um, they wanted me to wear one. They're kind of like, oh my God, if everyone suddenly sees you with this, uh, amazing head of hair, um, we'll have queues.
[00:23:28] Anthony Laban: And I'm kind of, I'm, I'm kind of used to having my shiny head. It's been a long time.
[00:23:34] Antony Whitaker: No, mate, you look good like that. You'd look odd
[00:23:35] Anthony Laban: brought it in. So these are my, yeah, no, I really, I have tried it. It doesn't look right. Um, so we brought it in and, um, so for the barbers, they're pieces, so they're kind of glue on, you wear them for six weeks.
[00:23:49] Anthony Laban: The sides and the back is cut in to blend with the, with the piece at the top. They're kind of, um, they're real hair. They have a, a really realistic scalp. You color match really well. Um, you can swim and gym and all that kind of stuff. And there was a big, uh, big Instagram and Reels kind of presence of these pieces being put on and taken off and, oh, the guy looks 15, now he looks 28
[00:24:20] Antony Whitaker: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:21] Anthony Laban: of stuff.
[00:24:22] Anthony Laban: So we brought that in and, um, and that's kind of found its niche. I mean, it's not a very big part of my business, to be honest with you. Um, but it has an audience. Um, and then with the salons, we always had, um, uh, hair extensions and we have, we have a staff member, Taylor, who's just spent a year really training deeply to be, uh, doing hair extensions for, uh, women at the beginning of their new hair post chemo where their hair is growing back.
[00:24:52] Anthony Laban: and it's very short, um, and they want to get their long hair back. So we find that's, again, a niche, but it has an audience and it's, um, it's another thing we can kind of, uh, supply, if you
[00:25:04] Antony Whitaker: Hmm. Yeah. And is that a more lucrative side of the business or not necessarily?
[00:25:11] Anthony Laban: Um, I mean, it is, I mean, it is, it's, it's, it's very, I, I always think it's very expensive. Um, because it's so time heavy, um, but it, but you know, when you see what it's doing to these people and they're very happy to, to pay for it, the, um, the, the, the payback is worth it both ways, if you like. So we, we charged what the stylist would normally charge per hour.
[00:25:38] Anthony Laban: Um, if they were doing kind of back-to-back haircuts.
[00:25:41] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:25:42] Anthony Laban: And, you know, with some of the, with some of the extensions on new hair can be up to eight hours. So it's a, it's a lot of work.
[00:25:51] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, exactly. You know, it's interesting. There'll be people listen to this thinking Oh my god, is he talking about, you know toupees and stuff? And there's that thing that people always say they always say you can always tell when someone's wearing the toupee but the answer is No, you only can see the bad ones, because if it was a good one, you wouldn't be able to see, and I've seen some that you just would never, you're like looking at it and someone's saying it's a toupee or whatever, what is the term you would use?
[00:26:23] Anthony Laban: Uh, yeah. A piece or a hairpiece,
[00:26:25] Antony Whitaker: Right. Okay. A hairpiece. Right. Yeah. Toupee. I don't know who uses that word anymore. I don't know where I, where I brought that one up from, but yeah, I mean, I've been told before about he's got a hairpiece and I'm standing there looking at him and I think I can tell stuff really easily and it, you just can't tell, you know, like a really good one.
[00:26:44] Antony Whitaker: And like you said. They're not cheap. They're expensive, but for people who really want them there, the transition from, you know, maybe being a 50-year-old or a 40-year-old or whatever it is. And I mean, you know, there's some guys, I mean, I'll use someone whose name we are all familiar with. Um, and that is Prince William.
[00:27:03] Antony Whitaker: And I can remember seeing, you know, Prince William in his twenties and. He was seriously balding. Um, and I mean, no, he's not about to all of a sudden, you know, walk out in a press release with a hairpiece on. It just wouldn't, it just wouldn't work. But you can, I can understand why young guys like that, who. can afford it would, uh, invest in a piece. And I know that, uh, there's certain people that, you know, I'm familiar with in the United States who do a lot of that sort of work and it's extraordinarily lucrative, you know? So, yeah, it's interesting. The technology has come a long way.
[00:27:44] Anthony Laban: yeah, and I think there's, there's a kind of stepping, it's certainly a younger audience. It's not, it's not men my age that are wanting to suddenly. Um, you know, leave the wife, buy a Ferrari and look like they're, they're youth. Um, these are young guys who are going, who are really losing their hair very early on.
[00:28:01] Anthony Laban: They're going through the kind of, you know, depression, upset, heartbreak, or just kind of, uh, lost identity of losing their hair. And I think it's a bit of a stepping stone. We find a lot of the guys that will try a piece. will regain their confidence, feel good again, um, and will then maybe start the, the process of a hair transplant.
[00:28:24] Anthony Laban: We certainly have that, it certainly seems to open up that conversation a lot,
[00:28:28] Antony Whitaker: Right.
[00:28:29] Anthony Laban: speak much more about hair transplants and, and the guys are very good at whether you're a good candidate or not for a hair transplant. Um, so it does tend to be a stepping stone, but you can really see the difference in people's self confidence
[00:28:44] Anthony Laban: when either they get a piece and they suddenly look like themselves again, or their extensions go in and they suddenly feel they get their kind of femininity back with their long hair after this short crop.
[00:29:00] Antony Whitaker: Yeah, yeah, got it. Okay. All right. Um, back to the, the barbershop versus the, the salon, uh, model. Um, which of the two is easier to manage? Do they present very different, you know, problems?
[00:29:14] Anthony Laban: Um, yeah, I mean the salons, the salons do run themselves reasonably well. I think the only problems in the salons generally come because of me. Um, because I'll disrupt. I think, uh, I think naturally I'm a bit of a disrupter, so I do tend to come into work with an idea. And we'll ruin everyone's day by getting them to suddenly shift.
[00:29:39] Anthony Laban: I quite like as a little store, the idea was that we were a small sports car, not a, not a juggernaut. Um, so if I have an idea, I want to bring it in very quickly. Um, the barbershops are really smooth running, running and then they're not. They, they're kind of, they're kind of like sheep. You know, the idea that, that they don't teach anything in veterinary school about sheep because sheep are either alive or they're dead.
[00:30:06] Anthony Laban: Um, there's no sheep diseases, they're just done. Um, and with barbershops they seem to be absolutely fine and they run perfectly and then they don't. Um, and it tends to be like, uh, A pal of mine called it a Lancia Delta, uh, Lancia Delta, is that right? Um, Italian sports car. When they're running, they're fabulous, and when they're not, they're an absolute pile of metal.
[00:30:30] Anthony Laban: Ha ha. Um, and so we tend to find with four stores, one will always need more attention at some point. Um, but the problems come along few and far between. And I kind of enjoy it when they do. It gives me an opportunity to. And because they're all small, they all have a small footprint, they're not expensive.
[00:30:55] Anthony Laban: Um, that I've got the opportunity to reinvent. Um, and I quite like that, even if we don't do it too often. I like that, that, that option is always there that we could close the door for two or three months, revitalize, rechange, rebrand, redo. rehire and just launch as something else.
[00:31:16] Antony Whitaker: right, okay. So, so,
[00:31:18] Anthony Laban: that that I find quite exciting.
[00:31:20] Antony Whitaker: yeah, with, with the hiring thing, uh, again, which is easier to recruit for? The barbershop or the ladies salon? Are you, are you, is there a, a noticeable difference?
[00:31:34] Anthony Laban: salons are now pretty much everyone's nearly all homegrown. So we've been going for for 10, 11, 12 years, and so we've managed to train people up. So we have, you know, our team are, are part of the family. They've, they've, they've grown up with us and we managed to keep them excited and inspired. I've got apprentices that have just qualified that are now, uh, extending their barbering training because they want to be able to work in our barber shops. We have apprentices that join us to be hairdressers with the intention that ultimately would they get the opportunity to work in the barbers. So we're kind of creating our own, our own breed. Um, barbershops, I've always employed, because we employ, so all our staff are, are employed, um, we find the barbershop much more difficult because, you know, we're now on about 70 odd percent in the UK of.
[00:32:34] Anthony Laban: Of self-employed certainly in the barbershop industry and um, and so we'll meet people that want to work with us Uh, we have a good reputation People come along to meet us, but eventually in the conversation Certainly seven out of ten times. It will be ah, i'm self-employed or I want to be self-employed or I freelance um, which we've never done, you know, we employ right.
[00:33:00] Antony Whitaker: Okay. That's interesting because, you know, again, that was one of the questions I was going to ask you about is that do you find a radically different business model? Uh, and I'd agree with you that most barbershops for a very long time. It's, I mean, in the UK at the moment, there's been a huge increase in self-employed for lots of different reasons, uh, in the, in the ladies side of the industry, whereas the barber's side of the industry, there's traditionally been a lot more self-employed barbers than, you know, ladies salons.
[00:33:29] Antony Whitaker: Have you, is that, you know, what you've experienced as well over the, Last 20, 30 years, the, the barbershop culture has been more about self-employed all the time, and now it's the ladies side of the business that people are wanting to transition to being more self-employed. Is that what what you've seen happening?
[00:33:45] Anthony Laban: Yeah, I mean, certainly, um, certainly it seems to be, um, in the, in the, in the salons now we're finding more people we meet that want to be self-employed, um, I think a lot of that is about them possibly not wanting to be full time. Um, not wanting to do a five day, a traditional five day, a five, eight-hour days, um, and, um, and, and feel that there, there are tax advantages to them being self-employed.
[00:34:14] Anthony Laban: Um, I still have great reservations, certainly with the UK about, uh, how the, our, our revenue and customs aren't very clear. about what a self-employed hairdresser looks like. And I think while that gray area is still so gray, um, I don't like gray. I like nice and clean cut. I like nice, bright torch light in dark corners.
[00:34:41] Anthony Laban: Um, and, um, so yeah, so we've just stuck with employer. Um, and as I say, most of our team are really happy. They have a clientele with us. I think most of the hairdressers and barbers that I meet that want to be self-employed Aren't actually carrying a clientele with them. You know, I think  that's a different matter And I think if I was meeting a barber that came along and said look I’ve got You know I’m doing a hundred clients a week and I need somewhere to work from And you know, this is how much I’ll pay you to do my clients in your shop Then that to me is the kind of truest self-employed And then I'm a facilitator of a space.
[00:35:24] Anthony Laban: My company, I have the physical building and the marketing and the imagery that clients come to my stores, um, and then trust that I will provide them with great people to do that work. So I think I've never made that transition. Hey, I'll never say never. I think, you know, the, the, the, it's certainly becoming incredibly difficult to meet barbers.
[00:35:51] Anthony Laban: The, the, the understand the benefits of employment, um, and see employers as, as and, and, and probably quite deservedly. Uh, Barbara's the hairdresser. as the big bad wolf or the kind of thieving boss or you know, whatever beautiful phrase you want to put us on.
[00:36:13] Antony Whitaker: Yeah.
[00:36:13] Anthony Laban: And don't always see the benefit. We've had a couple of staff leave us recently after a long time and they've done it because they've managed to get a mortgage, because they've been employed, because they've got pay slips, and they understand that when they go on holiday.
[00:36:29] Anthony Laban: and they're lying on the beach, they're getting paid. Um, and I think those are the kind of responsibilities an employer should have.
[00:36:38] Antony Whitaker: so I just want to go back to something we already touched on before, and that was talking about how the barbering industry has really gone through, you know, big upheaval. Barbering became cool again 10, 15 years ago.
[00:36:50] Antony Whitaker: And that's fantastic that it did because you and I have been in this industry long enough to see, you know, where exactly the opposite happened. So it's great to see, you know, that barbering is [00:37:00] cool again. But what I want to ask you is, you know, Where is the barbering industry going? So what do you think it's going to look like in five years time?
[00:37:08] Anthony Laban: Yeah, I mean, I mean, it really has had a kind of huge explosion, I guess. I mean, I've had this conversation a few times with a few people, and it feels like the kind of there's been this explosion, and it's starting to settle. There's a school of thought that really believes there'll be a little bit more that's kind of like barberoo, that there'll be more home visits, more barbers on bikes and people turning up in your home and place of work.
[00:37:33] Anthony Laban: Um, general consensus is there'll be less barber shops on the streets again, um, that that will recede and there'll be an element of, you know, kind of the strongest surviving. Um, and, and hopefully the, the big concern so far is that there are not a lot of barbers being. properly trained through so there's a hope that there'll be one or two of these academies that grows up if you like and actually um and finds a proper place as we've seen in the UK with like Toni and Guy and Vidal Sassoon's that there's been these periods of of strong training
[00:38:08] Antony Whitaker: Hmm.
[00:38:09] Anthony Laban: Um me I I think they'll there's room for everybody and I think there'll be. The kind of excitement of all these shops on the high street will recede a little bit. Um, and it'll calm down
[00:38:23] Antony Whitaker: Right. Okay. All right. So
[00:38:24] Anthony Laban: There's some great people up there with some great companies
[00:38:27] Antony Whitaker: yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Um, so I just want to wrap up with two, two questions I want to ask you about. The first one is. You know, you've been in business a long time and when you've been in business a long time, you learn a lot and we've touched on some of this already right at the beginning of this episode.
[00:38:42] Antony Whitaker: So I wanted to ask you about what are some of the lessons that you've learned along the way? Is there, is there one or two lessons that you would like to pass on, you know, to the 25 year old version of you or whatever age it was when you first started in business that, um, might've saved you a lot of angst and or a lot of money in the process?
[00:39:05] Antony Whitaker: That was a long winded way of saying what's the wisdom that you want to pass on?
[00:39:11] Anthony Laban: Um, I think certainly the kind of HR stuff of taking time out with your team and talking about their careers and really having. A proper, a proper check in as to how they feel their career's going. Um, and what you can do to help them. And I think that's something that took me a long time to learn. Um, and whether I get it right now, I don't know.
[00:39:36] Anthony Laban: But I think I try and make sure the team know that, that I'm really interested in them having their future career. And, and, and it's to be as exciting as possible. Um, whether we're part of it or not and to give them that confidence, um, and our staff stays. So that's good. Uh, certainly we use the HR company just because of the minefield and during my career that's definitely, um, definitely been something that I found the most headache with.
[00:40:03] Anthony Laban: Um, accountancy, good accountants to clean everything and make sure everything is clean and tidy and presented properly has definitely saved me. And I guess really the two big learns for me In my reincarnation as my new company after a long career has been don't micromanage, you know, trust people to the, if you've hired them to do a job, trust them to do it.
[00:40:26] Anthony Laban: You don't know better. You hired them because you believed in them. Don't stop, just support them and listen to them and give them that confidence to, to be them and what you hired them for. And my biggie after all these years is enjoy it. Enjoy it. Enjoy it. There's a reason why you became a boss, why you became a store owner.
[00:40:49] Anthony Laban: Remember those reasons in the year you were leading up to opening it, and hang on to those. Just enjoy
[00:40:55] Antony Whitaker: Okay. Yes. Some good, some good wisdom there. I knew you wouldn't let me down. Uh, very lasting.
[00:41:00] Anthony Laban: a little bit bullet hole, I'm
[00:41:02] Antony Whitaker: No, not at all. Not at all. Uh, last thing I want to ask you about, or I want you to tell us about is you have a podcast. I know you have a podcast because I was fortunate enough to be invited to, to be on it. And, uh, that's how we first met and it's an interesting podcast cause you're very focused on the barbering industry.
[00:41:19] Antony Whitaker: And there's not a lot of podcasts that are just focused on the barbering industry. Uh, and it's, it's very UK centric, but you've had a lot of great guests on there and, uh, and I really enjoyed it. So just tell us about your podcast and what it's all about, why you did it and importantly, where people can find out more about it.
[00:41:38] Anthony Laban: Sure. Thank you. Yeah, no, you're a great guest. Thank you very much. Um, yeah, it's the Noble Barber podcast. Um, and, um, we went with Noble, N O B L, um, but it's Noble Because we cut through the crap and it was wanting to to have an honest talk about it. The barbering industry got a little bit overtaken by Instagram that everyone was showing their best possible life and I felt it was necessary or important to share the real stories to the world.
[00:42:08] Anthony Laban: having experienced opening shops and building up a career and opening columns and doing all that kind of stuff that I wanted to meet the people behind these cool little shops, um, and why they were doing it and what they had to offer. Um, we've now been going a year. We've met 50 plus people. Um, we've had some amazing conversations from, from every aspect of the, of the, uh, of the, of the spectrum from old boys like me who've been doing it from the beginning.
[00:42:39] Anthony Laban: So very young lads who've just started. We've met barbers with, you know, varieties of neurodiversity. A lot of, um, a lot of men's mental health. And there's been some really fascinating and really honest conversations. And I've loved seeing that kind of community. And I think we've been a really big part of, of building a community in the barbering industry, that barbers feel confident to walk up to each other now that they're at shows and events.
[00:43:08] Anthony Laban: And, um, and yeah, no, it's been really nice to be in it. I've, like I said, right at the beginning, I like being a shopkeeper. I feel like we're the heart of everything. Um, I still make sure I'm involved in getting street parties off the ground and running the charities locally and getting involved with Christmas trees going up and, and I love that kind of community feel.
[00:43:29] Anthony Laban: And, uh, the podcast is a kind of extension of that, that I wanted barbers and guys that were, guys and girls that were thinking of opening something. So have a resource to dip into, find people that may, may be associated with, who'd set up the companies that they aspire to or, or wish they had and could delve into it.
[00:43:51] Anthony Laban: And look, and we, all our guests are always open. So answering questions, you know, from, um, direct messaging and, and, and we'll, we'll help. So it's been a really. Really revitalizing experience because I didn't know any of these guys. I've met I've met 50 new people who Who have been brilliant?
[00:44:09] Antony Whitaker: no, that's what I've found. Uh, one of the really nice things about doing podcasts is now, um, I I know you're on YouTube with the podcast Uh, are you on all the other podcast platforms as well? Or is it just YouTube centric?
[00:44:24] Anthony Laban: Uh, yeah. No, we're on Spotify. We're on apple Uh, we're on YouTube where everywhere you'd normally get your your podcast from Um the Noble Barber Podcast, please have a
[00:44:34] Antony Whitaker: Right. Okay. So whereabouts can people connect with you on Instagram or any other social media channels? Uh, or as we've just said your podcast, so we've already spoken about that any other Um, you know social media sites you want people to go to
[00:44:49] Anthony Laban: Uh, well the easiest way to get to get me is um at laban home l a b a n home Or at Mint Hair London. Um, have a good look round our shops and um, and get in touch with us if you wanted to. 
[00:45:03] Antony Whitaker: All right. Well, listen, I'll put those links on our website, growmysalonbusiness.com, uh, and in the show notes for today's podcast. So if you're listening to this podcast with Anthony Laban and you've enjoyed it, do me a favor and share it with people who you know, who would also enjoy it. And don't forget to like and subscribe and leave us a rating and review on the Apple podcast app.
[00:45:24] Antony Whitaker: So, uh, to wrap up, Anthony Laban, thank you for being on this week's episode of the Grow My Salon Business podcast. It's been great chatting to you. you Thank you, Antony. 
[00:45:33] Antony Whitaker: Cheers.