📍 I just had this reflection a few weeks ago. You can't find and revel in joy and appreciation
and gratitude if you're exhausted.
And that's when I realized. Oh, I need more rest. a lot of things are going well, and I need to
take a deep breath and rest and see those things.
📍 📍 Welcome to Lonely at the Top, the podcast for high level leaders carrying the invisible
weight of the world. Because you know the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely
talk to. Here we welcome founders, executives, and decision makers who feel the isolation and
pressure that comes with power.
Lonely at the top is your sanctuary in the storm, and I'm your host, Soul Medic and former
psychotherapist, Rachel Alexandria. Today on the podcast we have Sorby Grant. She's the
president and CEO of Climb Hire, an equity focused workforce development nonprofit. She
has over 15 years of experience as a strategist and operator in the education sector with past
leadership experience at Teach for America, Citizen Schools, and Achievement
First. I am so excited to have this conversation and also to talk about Climb Hire.
Yeah, I'm super excited, really excited. And also your, your intro is so calming. I was just like,
haah.
Yeah, I've actually done meditations and stuff. I have always heard that I have a very calming
voice, and so I thought, why not lean into it? Leaders are so stressed.
Yeah.
Let's make this podcast something that makes them feel validated, teaches them something,
but also does not activate their nervous system.
Yeah. Well I appreciate it. 'cause I was a little like, oh, I'm doing a podcast, and then I just
heard you describing it and it just felt so safe. So, um,
Hey,
my nervous system is regulated and ready.
we're hydrated. We are regulated. Here we go. So you and I met through John Valencia.
Mm-hmm. Yes. I think we just had our year anniversary of our meeting at a workforce
conference in California. And it started off as, we were sharing truffle fries and a drink,
Nice.
and now, we text each other pretty often, and also have worked and collaborated together on a
few things.
So it's like one of those beautiful moments where social capital just blends and it's beautiful.
Social capital. Yes. So when we first talked about doing the show, we were talking about that
idea of social capital.
Can you define that for our listeners? What is social capital?
Yeah. I spend a lot of time talking and thinking about social capital and I probably should have
pulled up the official definition from
Meh,
Robert Putnam
But, the shorthand of it is social capital, is the ability to use relationships and the trust that you
have with another person to get access to other things. I often say social capital is currency.
It's the currency of opportunity. Um, in fact, at Climb Hire we teach explicitly how to build
professional relationships, how to support them and in particular we talk about bridging capital.
'cause there's two types of social capital, bridging capital and bonding capital.
Well before you, before you get in, I'm sorry to cut you off, but before we get into that, I actually
want you to tell us about what Climb Hire is
Ah,
so that people have the context for who you're teaching and, and then please get into it.
Yes. Thank you for that. Climb Hire is a workforce development nonprofit. We support and work
with individuals who make less than 30 k. So think underemployed or unemployed.
Um
the gig worker, your Starbucks barista, the person at CVS.
And we do virtual, training that is a mixture of technical training. So we have paid search
marketing, IT support, medical assistance,
Mm
and then we teach career navigation skills.
mm.
how to write your resume. How to do interviewing and then our special sauce is social capital.
We teach the art of professional relationship building
Nice.
part. Yeah. Right. I love to say that, 'cause then people start thinking, oh.
Yeah.
and , when I think of the reason why we do all three, especially nowadays when you're thinking
about applying for a job, a lot of people are using AI to apply
Mm-hmm.
and then AI is screening people to get a job
Mm-hmm.
and something like 0.06% of applicants for jobs actually talk to another human being.
Oh my God. So that's just so depressing and demoralizing.
Right. And, you know, people are applying to hundreds and hundreds of jobs and social capital
is the differentiator. If you get a referral,
Hmm.
you are seven times more likely to get an interview and you're nine times more likely to get the
job.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
also 80% of the jobs out there right now are not posted.
Wait, wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 8 0% of jobs aren't even posted.
yeah,
They're just going through their networks.
yeah. People are like, oh, you have that skill. We need that skill. Or, Hmm, let me see if I know
somebody. Or we're gonna do a contract role first, and then it's like, oh, we actually found
budget for you. And so if you're just applying cold. I know, right? I
My jaw's open. She's,
I.
she's laughing because my mouth is literally open. Wait, wait, wait. So hang on a second.
Because before I was working for my own company, I only ever worked for the government or
for , the state. I worked for the University of Washington, I worked for NOAA.
I was under the impression that you have to go through the motions of posting a job. If a job is
created, is that just a state and federal thing? That's not a private corporation thing.
That's a state and federal thing, and some unions require that.
Gotcha. But lots of jobs don't.
lots of jobs don't. And honestly, even, when they post it
Mm-hmm.
like, we'll post it because we're required to. I have in mind some people who might be good for
that
And we're not even gonna see any of these people. That apply. Yeah. 80%. Oh my God. , I
have some people to talk to.
Yeah.
Yeah, a
That's amazing.
And so we spend our time talking to climbers. That's what we call our participants about the
hidden job market and what does that mean for you. And a lot of times our alumni are like, well,
I applied to 300 jobs. And I'm like, great. Did you network?
Hmm.
Something else I like to ask people when I'm doing conferences or when I'm having a session
with somebody, and I, I say. how'd you get your job? And a lot of times in the room, I'm like, if,
was it a friend who told you about the job?
Did you cold apply? A lot of folks don't cold apply for jobs that they have. Um,
Wow.
who do, there's some roles that it's just normal for that cold application process, but
Yeah.
is incredibly powerful, and especially when you have access to opportunity and economic
mobility, it's a hidden thing that isn't articulated and talked about enough.
And so
Massive.
time when I'm doing conference sessions or keynotes or talking, I'm demystifying and showing
people all of these things around the power of social capital. Yeah.
Wow. I love that you are making that hidden lever visible because
Mm-hmm.
I mean, absolutely. My fiance just went through a big job search process and applied for a
bunch of jobs, but also worked the crap out of his network.
Yeah.
He ended up interviewing for two different jobs who had no other interviewees.
They were both just looking at him and taking one of those jobs that I don't think they were
posted, so,
that.
yeah.
Yeah. If someone hasn't experienced it themselves, they know somebody who, it resonates
and it makes sense. And as soon as I start talking about it, they're like, oh, wow. So imagine
you are a first generation American and you've been working at CVS, you don't have a college
degree and you aspire to do IT support.
You aspire to be a medical assistant.
Right.
of going into that network is overwhelming.
And. What we do is we try to make it a little less overwhelming , by explicitly teaching those
skills of how to network. What do you do with the follow up? How do you do the LinkedIn
conversation when you go to a virtual networking session?
What are you saying? Even the fact that you're shaking your head right now while you're
talking to me.
Mm-hmm.
that we teach because you're listening. You're actively
Right.
and engaged.
Yeah.
do you take notes in a meeting? So you shows that you are professionally aware and
Mm.
those things.
What are the hidden signals
Mm-hmm.
we do? We make them explicit.
Uh,
yeah.
that's, uh, like, makes me so happy that you're out there doing that. That's incredible. How did
you get started?
Oh yeah, so I did not found Climb Hire. The founder, she's not with us anymore, and I knew her
from a job before. And she was like, Hey, we're thinking about doing this thing and we wanna
expand and I think you'd be perfect at it. So that's one thing. Social Capital got me
Uh
to, to Climb Higher, but she was a LinkedIn, entrepreneur in residence and they were doing
research on the referral button , they used to have that feature on LinkedIn and she started
looking at and realized the power of the referral
hmm.
, Folks who were trying to get into new, networks, didn't have a referral. Um, and so what is the
way that we could build , a nonprofit that would support low income individuals to build their
referral network and get into , access to this economic mobility? So that was really the vision
behind how it started.
That's incredible. And then how did you end up in charge?
Yeah, so I started as a consultant,
Mm-hmm.
um, and I was doing a lot of executive coaching at the time, and really have a passion for
helping people build teams, and be really strong managers.
And so I was supporting all of the managers at the company. And I have a background in K 12
education and curriculum development, and part of our work is we're teaching curriculum and ,
Nitsan was like, so why don't you come on and be our first chief program officer? , We'll create
a role.
What is it that you want it to create
We create a role, uh uh.
and I was like, you know, I'm really into the people leadership now. I'm good at program. And
she's like, all right, it can be chief program and people officer. So , we literally created a role
that was based off of my skillset and my aspirations. After doing that for a year, we realized I
could be really effective at being the president, taking on that people role and all of the internal
management. And then a year of that , Nitsan was really like, I wanna work on something
different.
Mm-hmm.
on a transition plan and I became president and CEO. And there's two reflections that I have.
One is I feel really blessed to have been at the organization for two years. I think I've managed
most of the people in the organization at some point. And so when it came to announce that I
was president and CEO, it didn't feel. It didn't feel jarring. They were
Mm.
this makes sense.
Yeah.
And then the other part of it is I was a principal of a school. I was the CEO of a middle school.
Uhhuh.
being the CEO of a nonprofit, I know right? I call
C.
of a school. Being the CEO of a non-profit was right in my proximal development. I am doing
new things and learning new things on a daily basis . And it's been about 18 months now and,
sometimes it's scary. All the things that I'm walking into and other times it's like, oh, this just
feels right.
Like I'm finally able to , make this decision and we're going in this direction. And I'm walking in
the purpose of what needs to be happening right now. I think probably the biggest challenge
has been, Nitsan and I are very different leaders. and I think in some ways it's like yin and yang
and so trying to find my identity in this role coming from a dynamic, very different leader.
People know what was founded and it's a beautiful thing that's been founded and now it's me
taking over and going into a different direction. And so that means how do we talk about it
when we're fundraising? How do we talk about it when I'm at a conference that Nitsan used to
be at?
Mm.
like, how do I define who I am? While not being in the shadow, but really making sure that my
presence and the direction of where the organization is going and who we are now is strong
and clear.
Yeah, that makes sense. When you talk about stepping into the footsteps of the person who
came before
Hmm.
the experience I have with that is, when I was training in Family Constellations and my trainer
was a man with a lot of gravitas, and , a lot of power, but would be very gentle with people.
And we were supposed to learn from him, but we also learned from other leaders in this work.
And I started leading my own workshops and I remember a friend of mine coming, I'm so
grateful for this feedback. My friend said, the work itself was amazing.
Family constellations is incredible. But in the beginning when you were doing these
introductions and talking to the client and whatever, it didn't feel like you, like, that's not really
how you talk
Mm-hmm.
you did this thing. And he imitated how I was addressing a person. And I went, oh yeah, I was
copying my trainer.
Mm-hmm.
I thought that's how I had to do it.
Yeah.
So I hear that challenge , how do you come from another point of leadership in an organization
and step into especially a founder's role?
Yeah.
you know, the founder vacates the role of leadership as a highly people centered person. How
do you do that?
What did you focus on? What were your steps or your concerns?
Yeah, I mean, I think my biggest concern was failure, right?
Mm-hmm.
I think everybody has a little bit of worry about failing at something. Um, and
Sure.
that was my big, like, I'm gonna do this wrong.
Hmm.
and I think there was also this weight of I'm going to let down, group of people who work for
me now. I was their boss before, but it felt like a different type of boss. Decisions I make are
consequential in bigger ways. I can build community, I can do all these things.
And now as CEO like bringing in resources, bringing in people,
Mm-hmm.
into places that were strange and getting them to climb higher than I was taking them.
Right?
I had to be the one who was going into strange places, places where we might not belong and
Mm-hmm.
for ourselves, advocating on behalf of others.
And so I was grappling a lot with that. I think the way that I've handled it. Uh, when I left one
job, someone gave me this water bottle that says, hold on a minute, I have to overthink it. And
that's what I've done, sometimes to my detriment , because I'm so nervous about making the
wrong move or losing the opportunity. But I think I've, used that to reflect a lot on different
moves. I spend a lot of time carving out reflection time in my calendar and in my day.
Like while I'm running, I'm like, let's process what's happening. Let's process what happened.
How could I have done it better next time? And I think another thing, and this is only recently, is
for the external and internal moments where people are saying, you're doing a good job
without saying you're doing a good job. I think just hearing for that. When someone says, you
know, well, I'm coming to you with this because X, Y, and Z. They're telling you they're coming
to you because this is something that you do well . Or when you know, you have a meeting or
you present at a conference and within 24 hours you have three people emailing you following
up from that
Yeah.
you know, that is, that's an indicator that , you're doing a good job, you're doing it well.
And so , I'm making sure that I take stock and finding those moments.
Hmm.
I like, I just had this reflection a few weeks ago. That's easier said than done because, you
can't do that. You can't find and revel in joy and appreciation and gratitude if you're exhausted.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
It's true.
I think many of our brains and my brain in particular, I don't, I don't think I'm unique in this.
, You try to protect yourself. And so , you're looking for danger and trying to think about what's
going wrong.
And so, I constantly reflect on, what could, this week isn't going well, why?
Mm-hmm.
and make sure that it never happens again. I was in the middle of a John Legend concert, and I
love John Legend,
Nice.
and I found myself processing all the bad things that were happening in the week.
Why did I bring work here? Why did I bring my inner critics to a concert?
And then I luckily in that moment, I was like, what are you doing?
Yeah.
You know? And I just I took a deep breath and just was like, you love John Legend. , It's a
school night. I know, but like engaging in this. And I think, that's when I realized. Oh, , I need
more rest.
Like, I am
Mm.
go, go. That I'm not even enjoying the things I'm supposed to be enjoying. And so
Mm-hmm.
a lot of things that are going well, and I need to take a deep breath and rest and see those
things. And it's kind of shook me a little bit. That happened about a month ago and it really, it
was like, oh wait, Sorby, you're going on turbo, and not taking stock.
Mm-hmm.
It's a good moment for us all to take a breath because probably everyone listening to this show
has been going harder than is best for them.
Mm-hmm.
first time I ever had an experience like that I was actually in college and I don't consider myself
a type A personality, but I do like to create things and there are things I care about, achieving. I
don't know what was going on, but clearly I was doing a lot at this point in my life because I
ran a red light.
I didn't even see it.
Oh wow.
it was late at night. Nobody coming, but I had a friend in the car and I don't think I would've
noticed if she hadn't been like, what? This is a red light. I was like, oh, I'm not, okay.
Yeah.
got it. I'm not, okay.
Yeah.
to make more space. It's like our brains are snow globes, right?
And all of the emotion, they're just constantly shaking, . If we don't take a moment to let it
settle, we can't ever see the structures inside.
Yeah.
Yeah. So I, I get that. I'm glad your example was not life threatening or dangerous. It was much
more like,
I,
oh man,
that though, you know, I,
yeah.
to drive to work , you could go on autopilot really easily
Mm-hmm.
you know,
I saw you, I saw you react. I'm like, no, I'm not trying to donate any of that stress. And it was a
long time ago and everybody was fine. Just I learned to, like you, listen to the signs
Mm-hmm.
and when I see one, I don't wait for the third or fourth time because it starts with a whisper and
then it becomes something that starts pounding the door down.
Right? I don't wanna get to that point. Let's.
Yeah.
Let's take it when it's whispering.
Mm-hmm.
So is that the leadership season that has most tested you?
It's funny because actually when I think about that question,
Mm-hmm.
say it was when I first became a principal. It was very similar circumstances to taking over as
CEO. I tend to be a successor, i'm not a founder.
Mm-hmm.
after.
Mm-hmm.
I thought that that was the hardest, and I still think it is. It was the hardest job I've ever done.
And it was hard because I thought I knew how to do it. I went in way more con I'm a confident
person,
Yeah,
um, and methodical, but I, I was like, I got this and I, I got my derriere handed to me again and
again and again.
man.
and in the moment I thought I could just work harder and get myself
Yeah.
through it. I thought that all it needed was intelligence in order to figure out what it was. in fact,
I needed to become a better people leader. Yeah, I was a effective educator.
I was a good operations person, but if I have a plan and no one's willing to run with me,
Yeah.
, Or if I'm not willing to listen, because they know more than I do. And I think everything from
situations with individual kids to, I had to do my first layoff when I was a principal. And
unfortunately I've had to do a few of them in my career.
Sure.
and at first I was very mechanical,
Mm.
And I think that was my way of compartmentalizing
Protecting yourself. Yeah. Sure.
And this most recent one , which was about two years ago, I leaned into the human
Mm.
and it went much better.
But woo, was it draining.
Yeah.
It's funny 'cause the question is, was that the season that tested you the most? I've been
tested a lot and I, I feel fortunate that I see the learning in the test.
Yeah, absolutely. You became more of who you are because of the challenges. What's the
phrase? Challenges make champions.
Uh, I haven't heard that one, but
I, I've heard it on a TV show somewhere and they probably were quoting somebody. And
apologies. Maybe I'll look it up and put it in the show notes if I remember, but, but that's what
Google's for. Somebody first said, challenges make champions.
, I can empathize because I have too come into things thinking, oh, I got this. Like when I was,
a graduate teacher when I was in grad school, the first time I was teaching undergraduates in
technical writing, in poetry and I was like, oh, I'm gonna be great.
I'm a great teacher, blah, blah. And I was just kind of winging it because I had done that a lot in
my schooling experience. And boy, I also got my butt handed to me a number of times. I have
some very embarrassing stories from those days, sort of like you think about 'em and you're
like, Ooh, ooh, ooh.
But how else was I gonna learn?
Mm-hmm.
That's, that's the way we learn.
And you know, I think it's funny when you say that and now I'm just reflecting, the best
moments I've had as a CEO is when I, remember that I'm doing new things and it's okay for it
to challenge me and me to do it wrong, so I can learn from it. For so long
Yeah.
in a role that I knew how to do.
I loved doing, being a chief program officer, coaching and managing people. I knew the
science so well that it was becoming an art.
Mm
, And I feel like in some ways I'm learning the science of some aspects of this. I'm
mm.
of fundraising like foundation fundraising versus major gift fundraising. I'm learning, when
you're having a conversation with someone and they ask, well, how can I help? you weren't
planning, you didn't
Oh no,
were
you're like, I ready.
You're like, wait, we're at, you're at the help phase. And I like what? And like always having an
answer for that.
Or when someone gives you an idea that it could potentially be an opportunity, and you know
that with my program hat, I'm like, no, we can't do that. And now wait, but that's a missed
opportunity.
Yeah,
maybe I need to slow down and say, let me think about, you know, so I
yeah,
right now is where I, I'm leaning into being okay with making a mistake.
yeah. ,
And you also had mentioned, or maybe I read this in the pre-show notes. Learning to accept
more help
Hmm.
as a leader, but it sounds like that's being mirrored as you lead an organization that exists
because it is receiving help.
Yep. This past year, I did a lot of conferences and talks about social capital and the role that it
plays with people. And it's been , in weird moments that I realize, oh, this is meta Some of the
stuff that I am teaching, uh, and that we teach to our climbers are actually relevant to me right
now.
And , I'm a only child. Sagittarius, maybe
Oh,
excuse. yay.
only child?
happy birthday. It's coming up. Maybe this will resonate and maybe it won't. But I'm used to
doing things myself and being there for me
Yeah. Yep.
so are these moments sometimes when I feel stuck and, I have to stop and say who can help
me?
Hmm
And those are the moments that I think we've accelerated the most. There was a tricky
situation and I went to our department heads and I just said, you know, this is the situation and
I, I am a little stuck.
hmm.
rose to the occasion,
Nice.
I remember our first board meeting that I led, with some of my new board members. And I was
presenting something like, this is perfect. I just wanna tell you and give you information. And
then the second board meeting that I led, it was right after the tariffs and I was a little freaked
out and I was
Sure.
I don't know what this is gonna mean.
, What do
Yeah.
And they were like, I just calm down. Lovingly, it wasn't aggressive at all. I said that in a, they
were like, take a deep breath.
Uhhuh.
What are you sharing?
Like actually is that factual? Or are you nervous and anxious?
Yeah.
Basically, they were telling me, we're here for you. Let's help, like, I'll take this portion, you'll
take that portion. And then at the most recent board meeting that we've had, I felt like , I was
with a team that had my back and that had proven again and again that they had my back
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, , my assistant joins the board meetings and she was like, I think that was the
best board meeting ever. They're sharing ideas. It's a conversation. And I see the board
meeting evolution as sort of like my evolution too.
It's like, I've gotta be perfect
Mm.
present these things and I'm gonna solve the problems on my own,
Mm-hmm.
let me try it and see how they react. And now it's like, are people who have my back,
Mm,
who are here to help. If there's a tricky situation, I text, I can email and I'm embracing that more
in various things.
Like sometimes I text John Valencia
mm-hmm.
like, Hey John, do you know how to write a MOU for dot, dot, dot ? Because I could kind of
figure that out, but I feel like you
It's, it's easier if I just get a little bit of help from my friend.
Mm-hmm.
That's the funny thing, right? So I, I am also an only child, Sagittarian. With a taurus rising for
anyone who cares. And the taurus rising part's, why you feel safe listening to this show. Yeah.
Taureans are good at creating space, creating cozy, warm, inviting space.
I in the first part of my life felt the most strong and confident when I had my stuff together. Like,
I've got my stuff. It's all here inside these walls. No one needs to do anything for me. I've got
it .
Mm-hmm.
then I started a business, which you don't got it. No one's ever got it. You start a business, you
need things from people,
Yeah.
brings up all that stuff.
Yeah.
You cannot be contained and perfect and everything 'cause you're gonna have to try and fail. It
was such a hard transition to go from confident, cocky. I've got everything. Nobody needs to
tell me anything. I'm all good to.
Oh, I have to figure out how to ask for help.
Mm-hmm.
In a way where I'm likely to get it and then how to receive it
Yeah.
how to flow through that experience
Mm-hmm.
in a way that doesn't make me feel less than
Yeah.
So I think that's the interesting irony of the time that we all find ourselves in. Things are not as
straightforward as they might have been
for some of us who have been in a world that felt functional. That's never been everybody, but
some of us have been more able to like, oh, you just, apply for this government grant and you
get it, and
Yeah.
Right? It's not a big deal. And now it's like this was a huge, huge disturbance for almost every
industry, but especially, I don't need to tell you, I'm just referencing it for the audience listening.
Huge disruption for the nonprofit industry. And. What I love hearing, it makes me feel emotional
that you kind of came in like, oh God, what are we gonna do with that fear? Which of course,
you know, we have this very erratic
Yeah.
Governance now, and it is scary, things aren't dependable .
The episode I did with Meg Gluth, she talks about how she's able to forecast and deal with her
banks and the loans and everything that she has to do as a CEO based on forecasting and
how do you forecast with erraticness at the top ?
Yeah.
But there's a gift in this. It feels like, I hear it as you say it, we have to stop pretending.
We no longer are able to pretend that I got all my shit together and no one doesn't have to tell
me anything. And I never need anything from anybody so that I'm never vulnerable.
Yeah.
That time's over.
Yeah, it really is.
And you know what? Thank God.
I'm grateful for it, and I feel if anything I've reconnected in ways with people.
Mm-hmm.
This is an understatement of the, the century, but COVID really messed up connection. And in
some aspects, like I remember being on Zoom meetings with people that I hadn't talked to for
a really long time, and it felt very like, oh wow.
You're okay. I am okay.
Mm.
But then not being in, in-person meetings and we got used to that
Mm-hmm.
and I feel like this year I really leaned into my network
Yeah. Yeah.
I feel privileged, I think it is a privilege to have a strong network that is varied. And, I've really
felt very reconnected with some people. So there's a thing that I've been doing recently is,
texting people saying, I know I could get this from ai, but I'm choosing you.
Yes. I think you posted about that on LinkedIn, didn't you? I saw that. I love that.
And it's been really fun. 'Cause sometimes, you know, when you get a question you're like,
why are you asking me?
Mm-hmm.
I know at least for me, I won't speak for others. I know sometimes I'm like, I'm not gonna ask
that question 'cause I could easily look it up.
Sure.
but now it's like these fun ways of saying, I was thinking about you.
Yeah.
Um, and it makes me take a step and a beat of like, don't panic.
Hmm.
Um, and little p panic, like right. I'm not, I don't want people to think I'm running around always
like freaking out 'cause I'm not.
I don't think anyone listening to this thinks that about you.
I'm pretty steady,
Yeah.
you know, who do you know that could help with this situation?
Yeah.
It's an olive branch. And the other reason why this is, is so key to me. I was in San Diego,
Mm-hmm.
and I was at a dinner and I asked somebody, when was the last moment, someone's been
generous to you?
Mm.
you've experienced generosity. I love that question. It gets people real emotional and
beautiful. , One of the people said, I think there's a lot of people were saying, I'm not
comfortable with generosity. That's what, that was the trend. Like,
Receiving
yeah.
comfortable receiving generosity. They're all good with giving it, but receiving it, it's like, woo.
yeah. And this one woman said, and I remember it, it was so beautiful. And she was like, when
someone gives generosity, it is a gift. That you are giving to them for you to accept it. And just
sit with that before being uncomfortable with receiving generosity.
A hundred percent.
And it, it's so simple, but it's also so beautiful and it's really, made me think a lot more, and I'm
all about getting help now.
Yes.
You know? It's
Yeah.
you, like, it's, I'm not weak. It's good. And it also shows that we need one another.
Well let, that leads me into, I have a story I wanna share. I may get to it, I'll tell it another time.
But the thing about us needing each other, I interrupted you earlier in the show 'cause I wanted
you to explain Climb Hire, but that, does that bring us back to bridging capital and
Bonding.
bonding capital?
Yeah. Tell, tell us the difference of those things.
Yeah, so bonding capital , I describe it in a few ways. One way to think about bonding capital is
who do you call in a crisis? Family, close friends.
Mm-hmm.
they are the people that have your back. And for our climbers and our participants, they often
have very strong bonding capital.
They have strong family units, they have friends. Generally, people have a lot of bonding
capital, but we also are experiencing a loneliness epidemic, so bonding capital is going down
for many of us. But that's just the people who got your back, you know them really well.
Bonding capital does not lead to economic mobility. , Unless
Say it again.
bonding capital does not lead to economic mobility unless you are incredibly privileged, think
about legacy, think about wealth,
Yeah.
of things. Bridging capital is a different type of social capital, which is the weak ties and the
people that you might not know so well
Mm.
might be from different, socioeconomic status from you.
Mm-hmm.
There is a Harvard economist called Raj Chetty, did a series of research using Facebook data
and saw that the number one indicator for increasing economic mobility was not education.
Mm-hmm.
It was actually a low income person having access and being a friend with someone who is
high income because that is a bridge
Mm-hmm.
, Those different worlds.
And it's not even to say that that individual is giving direct money. It's not even to say that that
individual is giving them a direct job,
Mm-hmm.
are accessing a network
Mm-hmm.
currently have that can lead to economic mobility
Mm-hmm.
So that's the two differences. Bridging Capital allows you to get access to resources.
Bonding capital is your friend group, the people that have your back. Both of them are
necessary, um, for happiness and economic wealth and all those things.
Thank you so much for explaining that. From those definitions, like, this year has been a year
for me of diving into building bridging capital
Mm-hmm.
and realizing that I had a, a huge weakness in that. I have a lot of bonding capital. Most of
those people will never become clients.
And they don't know my clients.
Mm-hmm.
I think that's the challenge, right? That a lot of people don't understand. They have, like you
said, really strong bonding capital, but it won't get you what you need. They'll support you
when you fall down.
They'll help you bury the bodies, but they can't get you into that high level job. They can't get
me a high level interview
yeah,
because they don't know those people.
exactly. And it's really interesting around weak ties. I think the instinct that people have is that,
oh, I need to just tell all of my friends I need a job. Your friends already know you need a job
Mm-hmm.
'Cause you're talking about it at brunch.
Yeah.
what you need to do is you need to tell the barista or the person at your gym that you see all
the time,
Yep.
, They are
Different circles. Mm-hmm.
And then that's how your networks get so big.
Mm-hmm.
Like an example of me texting, is you're not tapping into people who are weak ties who might
have information.
'cause you're just going to AI to get the information.
Right,
I think I'm also training myself to maintain my weak ties. 'cause weak ties need some
maintenance as well.
absolutely
they don't need a lot, but
right.
some maintenance.
The mistake I used to make, and it was never super conscious, it was just, running
subconsciously in the back of my mind, I'd meet people, I'd think someone is cool, business
networking especially. I'd meet someone cool and then I'd make an overture. We'd connect,
we'd have a, a virtual coffee or a real coffee or whatever and be like, yeah, cool.
How can I help you? Cool. Yeah. How can I help you? Okay, great.
Mm-hmm.
And then I'd sort of walk away , and subconsciously I'd be like, well, they don't really seem like
they wanna be a friend.
Mm-hmm.
okay, cool. Whatever. And I would just like internally sort of drop it because I didn't have any
framework for recognizing and honoring weak ties in internally, right?
Like everybody's valuable. It was never me not caring, but I, I just didn't have a place to put it.
I've been going around saying, oh, I've had a a steam engine and it's been running and I have a
really big car full of friends and I have a car full of family and
I had no other car. So where do I put those people?
Mm-hmm.
And now I've built a car for them. Like, oh, I have a huge bunch of cars of bridging capital, of
weak ties. People I don't know very well, but we have good impressions of each other, and
that's enough.
yeah. You're not the only one. This is a concept that a number of people are like, oh, wait, not
everybody has to be my BFF.
Yeah,
You
I didn't used to understand that,
And it's like, oh, wait. In order for me to be in community with somebody, that means that I
need to know everything about them and they need to know everything about me.
right?
Or another thing that sometimes, our climbers struggle with and others struggle with as well,
the first time I meet somebody, then I'm gonna just ask for the, the moon. And if they say no,
that
Yeah,
they don't want, it's also like, whoa,
yeah. No.
like easy does it
Yeah. It's a weak tie, but it's not a no tie.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I love the train car analogy I might use. I might
Absolutely. Take it, please. Yeah.
'cause I think that's a really helpful one. Yeah.
Well the brain likes categories and if we don't have a category for something, we will forget it
because the brain is efficient and it doesn't wanna spend extra energy. This is coming from my
expertise.
Yeah.
So when I stopped being a psychotherapist and I didn't really have a definition for what I'm
doing, it's similar.
Telling people about what I do was so difficult. I would say stuff and I would see them nod or
get confused, and they'd ask questions and they would walk away. The confused brain will
drop that information. It has to fit in a category,
Yep.
which is why I always say now I'm a former psychotherapist. Oh, the brain's like, oh, okay, I've
got a category and you want me to put a little extra thing on it.
Okay, I can do that, but I'm a soul medic. And no, I don't have time to remember that. Like I
can't, I can't retain it. Right.
Yeah.
So having,
medic, I don't know, like
yeah. Souls woo woo something. Yeah. So having a category now I just am like, oh, that's
where all of these other people go. It used to be acquaintances, which is anybody I've ever
met.
That's not quite the same thing. Now they've got a train car. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, at the top,
no one sees your balance, sheet of burdens, but here on the show, we like to get into your
private ledger.
Mm-hmm.
you share with us please, one cost you've paid for being in leadership?
Yeah. One of the things that's so challenging , is rest and space for me . I remember reading,
rest is resistance,
Yeah.
nap ministry, and I, I felt read, I felt known and seen. and I still struggle with it.
Sure.
I sometimes have to tell myself, and I thank my partner, sometimes he's like, you know, you
can just sit, you don't have to be doing something. You're always doing at least two things. , Or
when we're on vacation he makes me add a day or two where I don't plan it
Nice.
because I plan vacations,
I bet you do.
but, you know, it's just, it's like this.
Yeah.
And I feel the toll that lack of rest has on my body sometimes, that it has on my mind, it has on
my ability to see joy.
To go to John Legend and enjoy it. Mm-hmm.
um, when going to John Legend becomes a chore,
No.
something going on. Um, and , that's what I see it as. That's been a burden.
Okay.
I, meditation isn't for me. , The way that I try to balance it is, endurance exercise. I run, I do
Okay. Mm-hmm.
And I'm also not a good sleeper. I've never been a good sleeper.
Hmm
It just ties in, right? It's very connected,
hmm.
know.
What is one invisible asset you didn't realize you had at the time?
, Have two that come to mind. The one is, around, my network, um, and around a year ago,
this time there was just a lot of stuff going on and I knew that this year had to be different
Mm
in terms of I was gonna have to go external. I was doing a lot of internal work
mm.
to get us to, like, we were scaling.
I wanted to make sure we were doing the right things. And I knew that next year I'd had to be
external and I kind of just sat back and I was like, who do I know who I could pull in to help for
two to three months on some of the internal stuff ? So I could hire people, like, if I was gonna
hire somebody, it means I have to stop doing that. and I just sat back and really embraced it
and found like four or five people to take on different things. You know, I found someone to
Nice.
with talent. And even in those conversations, every single time, do you know any good board
members? And so it was just realizing the power of my network and again and again, just
underestimating it.
But then if I slow down knowing, I know a lot of people, there are people in that cart that you're
talking about. They're not necessarily my best friends,
Mm-hmm.
been through something together and , I can call on them and if they can't do it, they'll
probably introduce me to somebody who can. That's one. And then the other one is, but I think
I know this, I'm kind of unflappable.
Nice
I'm dramatic.
uhhuh.
But unflappable,
Yeah.
there's very little HR issue that can come my way that surprises me. I don't allow the team to
send emails that say urgent.
Hmm. I hate that. Yeah.
Because yeah. Yeah. You know, having run a middle school, there were urgent things.
Mm,
what we are doing is important and I want excellence, but it's not urgent. Urgent is a family had
a house fire and we need
right,
and lean in. You know,
right.
is something's wrong with a kid.
Mm-hmm.
And as a result, I, I can problem solve really well, I can see the forest, I can slow it down and
then jump in, but I am dramatic. So I will react appropriately, but I'm not freaking out.
I am, I'm the same way. I didn't really know this about myself. I knew I had a flare for being
dramatic or for being expressive. It's probably closer to what I'm doing.
Yeah.
Yeah. Expressive. But I didn't know I was unflappable until I was partnered with somebody who
has a lot of flap.
Like my partner is, both expressive and can have dramatic feelings. In our life stuff comes up,
you know what I mean? Emergencies do come up and he really loves being with me because
after a lot of drama in his earlier life, he enjoys being with somebody who's not easily flapped.
Yeah. I,
So I get that.
flappable versus not. Yeah. Yeah.
is got a lot of flap. Yeah.
Yep. Yeah.
I don't know if you experience this, I can really meet something and be like, my focus narrows
and it's like, okay,
Mm-hmm.
what's in front of us. Let's focus on what we can do, what needs to be done and what we
can't.
You know, triage and then later after all of the things have been done, then that's when I'll sit
down and be like,
Yeah.
I have my adrenaline crash. Is that your experience too?
Yeah. I think like it's, , can feel the adrenaline fueling the problem solving.
Yeah.
I'm like, oh, okay, we gotta solve this. It doesn't bother me. But then afterwards I can feel it
drain.
Mm-hmm.
The way that you described it, it reminds me of my feeling post layoff.
Mm.
I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do it well, and I'm gonna do it in a human way. And when it's
clear and legal and all of these things and people are gonna feel taken care of and it's gonna
be communicated. And then at the end of the day, after the last meeting, I literally just felt all of
the adrenaline leave my body.
And it just was like, I was just a pool.
Yeah, you're like,
Yeah.
and for me, that's when the emotions show up. Like any part of me that might've been scared,
any part of me that was, upset in any way, that's when they show up and kind of like huddle
next to me internally and go, that was really scary. Yes. Okay. Okay. Let's have our feelings
now.
Let's, yeah,
yeah,
it is though. It is an asset in leadership. I totally get that. Alright, and then one more from your
private ledger. What is one investment that you're making now for your wellbeing or your soul?
When I'm doing my best, it is the balance of working out, resting, connecting with my partner,
having Saturday, couch rot.
Mm. Love me some couch rot. Yes.
But I am, I'm about to go on a vacation,
Yes.
to Mexico City and Oaxaca,
Ooh,
I'm prepping the right before it in a way so that I can truly be off.
nice.
And that is definitely, an investment. Like a recommitment
Mm-hmm.
And I, and I have one to do on that trip, and that is to get ready for next year, not plan it, but
Mm-hmm.
my intention for next year?
What's
Visioning
Yeah, some visioning. Um, I actually lied. I do have another investment that I've been, pretty
good at is I really believe in decision fatigue.
Mm, mm-hmm.
and I have a very expressive face and all of that, and I know that, and I do a lot of self-
regulation, to , hold the team.
Mm-hmm.
And so Fridays after 2:00, 3:00 PM I don't do meetings. , I do work, but I've never had a Friday
afternoon meeting go well. , So
It's like how there's no good decisions made after 2:00 AM, it's one of those bright line rules.
Mm-hmm.
you know, it's just a rule that I have that my assistant,, really does hold us to it, of like,
Nice.
work block.
It's her meeting with herself, she can't meet, oh, there's a crisis. Guess what? It's not gonna
get solved over the weekend because I just won't be the good decision maker I need to be, or I
won't be steady. I get hijacked easily, like all of the things. And so it's just avoid it.
That's,
that.
that's so smart. I, I firmly believe in establishing our internal operating manuals. These are my
best practices and when I stray from them things go awry. So.
Yeah.
Nice. Okay, I've got two more questions for you. First one, what do you wish more leaders felt
permission to say out loud?
Yeah, I love this one. , I've got three,
Okay. Alright, let's go.
I don't know.
Uhhuh
I need help. And this is what you need to do to be exceptional.
Oh, I've heard the first two, I have not heard the third. So let's say a little more about that.
I think, a lot of times when someone is good or great, we shy away from giving feedback or
we shy away from giving the sandpaper feedback. That's what I call it, because, it's like, no,
we don't wanna be too picky. We don't wanna micromanage. But I think many times, you're
preventing someone from being exceptional.
I love that. I love that reframe. I am all about sandpaper feedback because I can't help but , say
things like, I notice stuff. I gotta say it,
Mm-hmm.
but I, I'm gonna start referring to it that way. That's such a great way to like, yeah. The
sculpture is made. I can tell what it is. It's great. That's wonderful.
And it's just a little bit of polish, right? It's just the tiny little splinters off.
I think part of it is like, one, I realized recently that one of my core values is growth mindset, it's
a true core value. I just believe in coaching and developing and pushing people and doing
those things. It's why I was a teacher. I just think it's so important to help people be
exceptional.
I love that. I love that you're out there doing that. The world's a better place because of it. All
right, before we get to the last question, I like to invite my guests to share how people can be
involved in their world. I mean, you build social capital, so you probably want people to
connect with you.
Tell us how to do those things.
Yeah, definitely. If you are listening to this and know somebody who is making under 30 k, and
wanting career in IT support, medical assistance or, paid search marketing go to ClimbHire.co.
not com, so C-L-I-M-B-H-I-R-E.co. You can do a I'm interested. And we'll email you when
there is an opening. If you are somebody who is making over 30 K but wants to mentor,
volunteer, or provide, do a workshop, you can reach out to me at Sorby@climbhire.co, SOR, B
as in boy, Y @climbhire.co we'll get you connected to our alumni, figure out what's the right
space. We love volunteers. We do virtual networking, we do in-person networking sessions. We
often have panels, a day in the life. There are a lot of different ways for individuals to get
involved and be a part of our community.
Uhhuh.
um, yeah, come on by.
And can people ever donate, not just their time, but their money to Climb Hire?
Oh, yes,
All right.
Thank you for that.
We are a nonprofit.
We are funded through philanthropy individuals, and small portions of government funding.
Which is one of the, what you were sharing earlier, how it's scary and unpredictable now.
Mm-hmm.
and all of our climbers going through our program are making less than 30 K and oftentimes
have to stop their gig work in order to finish our program.
Mm,
so they're taking a chance and we are supporting them, and we have emergency funds, we
have, different, supportive services for them. And if you'd like to do that. ClimbHire.co. You can
also email me, LinkedIn me, send me mail.
send a pigeon with, cash
yeah.
Yeah.
We welcome any and all donations because we have a lot of individuals who definitely need
that support.
I love that. I love finding the right organizations who funnel to people who can really use the
help.
Yeah.
So thank you for doing that. Okay, here is the last question. It's the time machine question. If
you could go back to any point in your life, where would you go back to and what would you
say to a younger version of yourself?
Ooh, I would probably go to high school, Sorby. High school or college.
Mm-hmm.
I was going through different things. I'm pretty confident. But I think there's also an aspect of
underneath the confidence is like, am I doing the right thing? I
Sure.
, My parents were both Jamaican.
We were growing up in Boca Raton, Florida. Not a lot of Jamaicans there. I think two things I
would say. I never follow the rules. all the things that make you different will be your
superpower one day.
Mm-hmm.
I was a weird kid who was a super nerd and doing all those things and now I am asked to do
things as a result, you know?
Yeah.
so don't overthink it. Don't shrink, don't edit. then the other one, this one is probably college.
Your instincts are stronger than your self-doubt. So
Ooh. Oh, that's a nice one. Your instincts are stronger than your self-doubt.
Mm-hmm.
let's say that to everybody listening.
Mm-hmm.
Lovely. What a pleasure. This has been such a great count. I could talk about people and
relationships for hours, so I gotta,
can I. Like, that's the scary thing. It's
yeah.
so many layers and love, uh, layers of it. Yeah.
Thank you so, so much for being on the show.
Thank you for having me. This was really fun just to talk about, relationships, connection,
leadership. Like I said, I could do this for a very long time.
📍 Thanks for listening to Lonely At the Top. If today's conversation resonated, I hope you'll
give yourself permission to pause even just for a moment to check in with what you might be
carrying. You don't have to hold this all alone.
I work with high performers and leaders who wanna clean up their secret messes. You can
learn more and book a chat with me at RachelAlexandria.com. If you know another leader who
needs to hear this show, send it their way because, yeah, it's lonely at the top, but it doesn't
have to stay that way.