Brendan: Ooh, it's game time.
Mark: Oh my god.
I mean, are we gonna pretend that we're, you know, that we've got
things to say, or are we just gonna go straight into the songs?
Brendan: I actually do have things to say.
Mark: I have things to say.
Brendan: the gym?
Mark: four days out of five last week, and the day I didn't gym, I canaled.
this week
Brendan: Is that like a walk on the canal?
Or what's your Okay.
Mark: yeah, it was.
and, uh, that's because my lift to the gym wasn't happening last week.
And then my lift to the gym wasn't happening two days out this week.
So I, I, uh, did the same and this morning I didn't, or last
night I did not get much sleep.
So I didn't think I'd have that much in me.
So I went for a 30 minute cycle and a 15 minute cross trainer or elliptical,
which is usually opposite of what I do.
And I was like, you know what?
I didn't think I had whatever it is.
I had some of it and I brought it.
Brendan: Nice.
Mark: quite happy with that I did I didn't know that I had that
much to bring and then I brung it.
Brendan: You brought
Mark: pretty pretty pretty pleased with that so yeah, thank you.
Brendan: I'm glad to hear it.
Uh, I am curious to talk at some point about robots making podcasts.
Mark: Yeah Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah
Brendan: of, uh, of the, the doom of our industry.
Mark: Yes.
So, uh, last week, Brendan and I had, or this week or whenever it was, we had,
Brendan: who knows?
Time is
Mark: a circle, we, we, we did,
we did, uh, we had some WhatsApp voice note conversations.
Um, I I've noticed the final, I like this.
This is very, this is extremely nine.
but I like the fact that whatever medium I.
Initiate a message and you always reply in the same medium.
Brendan: Oh yeah,
Mark: Yeah.
You like, if I do a voice note, you always do a voice note back.
Brendan: that, that, that is true.
I, uh, yeah, I default to text.
whenever I initiate, but yeah, if somebody sends out something, I
will mimic that style because I'm like, Oh, they want it this way.
That's great.
Mark: They want it that way.
Yeah.
but yes, we had a conversation about robots making podcasts.
and when I went out for my walk yesterday, I loaded my phone
up with one I made myself.
I threw it the Molly whiskers book and I
said.
Well, I didn't say anything.
I just threw it in the book and then hit the button to make a thing out of it.
And, Yeah, it's interesting the bits that it gets wrong the bits that it
Brendan: elaborate.
That's not just text to speech then.
Then it's actually.
Making more or
Mark: a full summary.
it is a level of over and above the likes of chat GPT.
So I could throw my book into chat GPT, which I actually have.
and I could tell it to give me a summary and plot summary and all that kind
of stuff, and it would do a fine job.
What this notebook LM thing does is it then turns that
into a two handed discussion,
Brendan: right Right like
this
Mark: with lots of cliches,
Brendan: Oh like this
Mark: Yeah, yeah, like lots of kind of crappy, metaphors
to help you understand things.
Oh, it's like this.
And it's like, no, we didn't really need the metaphor.
We understood what the thing is.
and it's, so it's, it's, it's form.
Once you've heard a few, you start to see how formulate they are.
and because I knew the, Content intimately.
Well, I was able to sort of pick apart and go that character didn't
do that That happened, but it didn't happen with that character
initiating that, as you said, it did
Brendan: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Mark: and the other,
Brendan: which is very AI to do
Mark: well, I, yeah, I find that odd considering it's very easy to, it
must just be in, however, the systems, you know, quote, unquote, understand.
but like it got the gist and it got like what it did better.
Is understand the emotional kind of beats than it did the actual facts,
which, you know, maybe concerning to some considering notebook LM
is meant to be a research tool.
so there is that, and the fact that it, it mushes facts, but it kind
of gets the sentiment, like you've got the sentiment of the book.
Brendan: Yeah.
Mark: But then, like, I don't know, it's not good enough yet if you
actually, like, like I said, if you actually know the subject matter, you
can tell, like, it's not that great.
And a few of them I've, I've listened to and I've gone, you're kind of
talking around this topic, but I don't, you haven't actually told
me adequately what the thing is that you're then going to riff on.
So they kind of do this riff.
Brendan: Okay.
Mark: a topic or like on an article or whatever and it'll be, you know,
welcome to another deep dive today We are talking about this article that we got
sent and then And then they don't always like actually give you enough context.
They sort of just start riffing and it's like but yeah, it's
interesting and it's only gonna
get
Brendan: like, it sounds like when, uh, Hollywood makes a movie about something
that you know, you know a little bit about, and it's like, oh my God, sure,
they got the kind of basics, right?
But the details are way mushy and weird.
Mark: Yeah.
yeah, they've, they've mangled two characters together and made them one
person and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Brendan: and then they say, oh, it, it could, that's the only way
it could be done on the screen
Mark: yeah, yeah,
Brendan: in podcast form.
Mark: I was wondering about this, like, how, how many years are we out
from a Lord of the Rings full series?
Because there's the, the Amazon one, which is, you know, they're using
whatever they can, um, I guess.
I don't know this, but my guess is they're trying to make it look as
much like the New Line films, but I'm, um, I'm guessing they don't have
The rights, otherwise they would be telling that kind of, I don't know.
Brendan: Yeah.
They don't, they only have the rights to the Ilian.
Mark: yeah, Silmarillion.
Brendan: Yeah.
Mark: but they've tried to make it look as much like the films as possible,
except for the bits that are like, Oh, that's laughable green screen.
Brendan: Oh, no.
Mark: Oh, there's a couple of bits where you're like, Oh no.
Oh, that's oh
Brendan: Yeah, it's kind of funny, like, I have a few friends that are super
into the books and even the movies, I've never heard anybody, like, love the show.
Rings of
power.
Mark: it's all right.
Brendan: Yeah.
I mean, I guess that's, that's Hollywood for you.
Mark: I haven't seen the new series because I no longer have amazon prime.
but i'm sure it's fine I'm sure it's i'm sure it's you know, eminently watchable.
But yeah,
Brendan: yeah.
Yeah.
More, more TV for your eyeballs.
Mark: yeah, there's plenty of it.
There's there's enough there's enough
Brendan: I had a slight, follow up, I guess, for the,
for my, my free will rants.
Mark: Excellent.
Brendan: one thing I kind of feel like I haven't really said, but
it's the distinction that I feel like would, help people understand
my perspective on free will.
Is that the no free will kind of only applies to your past decisions.
not, not only, I mean, like, sure, on one hand it's like, yeah, they're set
in stone, they happened in the past.
you used your will, you, you, you went through life and
Mark: You
chose, you
Brendan: Yeah, you chose, you chose your thing and, but then, yeah, you
were always going to choose that thing.
And so, the thing in the past, you, you can still learn things
and change things for the future.
Change.
You can, you can, gain more knowledge, gain more perspective, gain more
understanding, and that can shape what your no free will will be in the future.
Like if you choose not to learn things, then you're just going to
keep doing what you would have done.
Mark: yeah, I think that's interesting.
I think there are, to me, there are different levels of choice then.
It's like, so been playing this, uh, or replaying this game, the
Stanley parable, and there's this, the whole, the whole sort of game at
the beginning is really about choice.
And, cause the character rates what you do before you've decided.
What you'll do.
So, I won't spoil it cause it's worth playing, but, uh, the, the,
the best example being, you walk into a room and there are two doors
in front of you, and the narrator says something along the lines of
Stanley walked through the left door.
You haven't chosen yet.
So you can choose to walk through the right door and then all sorts
of fun things happen in the game.
and so there's those kinds of choices.
Brendan: Yeah.
Mark: But then the point that you make, which I really like is, is the choice
to learn from the choice that you made or the thing that happened to you.
and what you choose to do with that information, should you assimilate it?
and I think that's really interesting.
And that gets onto like.
Thinking about the last season of the good place where it was
really all about you going through a stage of all going through a, a, an
iteration of life and then ending and kind of, yeah, what have you learned?
And then what has that done to your score?
And then if the score is not at this particular number, then you
go back again or whatever it was,
Brendan: Yeah.
Yeah.
Mark: uh, or yeah, or you, you, you have some tests or something.
And if you fail the test, then you have to go back.
and so yeah, there's, there's something interesting there about what you choose
to, there's what you choose to do versus what you choose to learn, I guess,
Brendan: Yeah.
And then, you know, the thing, everything that came before impacts your decision
of whether you choose to learn it or not.
So in that regard, there's still a little bit of non, non free will aspect
going into it.
Mark: of circumstance.
Brendan: Yeah.
but yeah, I just feel like, and also like the, the, pressure, not pressures
necessarily, probably, but, People around you pushing you to learn or to
grow or whatever or the circumstances that are like Influencing you in a
certain way impacts your decision on whether you have the ability to learn
have the desire to learn and grow and change and So I feel like people think
no free will means you're static when I don't, I don't see that at all.
It's just,
Mark: You know what?
The word that's coming up for me now is responsibility,
Brendan: what's that?
Mark: because I think, That's maybe what people conflate free will with being,
is free will means no responsibility.
And I think what's it, yeah, what's interesting there is, Okay,
we don't technically like it's not that we don't have a choice.
It's just we were always going to make that choice.
I think that's possibly a
better character characterization because you definitely mentally make a choice.
Brendan: correct.
Mark: but what we're talking about now is saying, okay, well, you were
always going to make that choice.
The decision next is.
What responsibility do you take and what ownership do you take over that choice?
And that's the thing about whether you learn from it or whether you go,
well, it was the other person's fault.
They did a stupid thing.
There was nothing I could have done.
And it's like, well, if you take some responsibility or ownership over it,
then you can affect a change the next time you, you get a go around with that.
Brendan: the reason why I brought that up again is I watched this
Johnny Harris video on YouTube.
Do you know Johnny Harris?
He's um, a YouTube documentarian.
He, uh, worked for Vox for a while and then moved over to, uh, the New
York Times doing videos for them.
And now I think is just independent.
He makes pretty deep dive like into a topic documentaries.
They're very approachable.
He talks a bit too much, but he, it, yeah, it's, it, they're, they're easy to
watch and, and usually really interesting.
He does a lot of things on like the borders between countries, but he's also,
he, he throws in like wellness stuff.
He, he, he did one on, on not using shampoo.
He did one on, on saunas and, and, and hot tubs and cold plunges.
And he recently did one on sleep.
And can't exactly remember why I felt like the free will and
sleep thing were so intertwined.
But there was something about it that made me feel like there
Mark: can.
Brendan: connection there between the quality of your sleep, like what you do in
your day to day life, and how that affects your sleep when you're unconscious and
there
being some sort of free will connection Yeah, I mean, yeah,
also the other way around.
Mark: yeah, the choices that you make like this morning.
So I wasn't feeling super great about myself because, I did a load
of really good work yesterday.
I was really, really proud of myself, really pleased and ended up just getting
a shit load of really delicious meat.
Just like I got a big meat delivery.
Brendan: Mmm.
meat, tasty meat fire.
Mark: Yes, I got up this morning and was very tired, didn't sleep very
well, partly because of the meat and eating it a little bit too late.
Brendan: Oh, yeah.
Mark: and so, you know, wasn't, yeah, didn't, didn't sleep well, but got
up and I was like, no, I'm going to go, I'm going to go do the gym thing.
and kind of mindlessly, I just gobbled up all of the leftovers.
Brendan: Mmm, mm hmm.
Mark: and I knew it was, there was something there a little bit later on when
I was actually at the gym sort of feeling like, Oh, I shouldn't have did this.
sort of with that thing of like, yeah, but like you kind of, you were
slightly zombified and not quite fully awake and with full agency.
And so that's, yeah, I think there is something there about the dist
I hate that phrase, I keep doing that, like, there's something here
about, just say what the thing is.
it's, I find it an irritating affectation, but it makes, yeah, it
makes me think about the, uh, yeah, the choice you make the night before
impacts how much sleep you get, which then impacts your choicefulness
Brendan: yes.
It actually, it actually does.
It's not just a theory in your head.
I have some science to share with you.
So this Johnny Harris video, was, Revealing some new research
from the Paris Brain Institute.
And so when, when you make a decision, when you make a choice
in your brain, there is a release of a chemical called glutamate.
It is a neurotransmitter, so it allows signals to go through your
neurons, which are just like little pathways, pipelines and stuff.
glutamate, it's essential for the, for the choices to get to their destinations.
but it also, it's like, the wrapper on a package, like you open up the package
and then you have the thing that you wanted, but then, Then you have this
box to deal with, and the plastic, and everything, and that, you just toss it
outside your door, and it piles up and piles up and piles up, and eventually
the street is full, the driveway is clogged, and the street is full, and
there's just all this glutamate around, and then it kind of gets in the way.
And so, the way to clear it out is by sleeping, sleeping
well and sleeping deeply.
and so it's, it's kind of fascinating, like this, the same thing that helps you,
which, oh man, the yin yang, I'm, I'm just seeing yin yangs all over the place now.
The, the thing that's positive is also the thing that's negative in the same, in the
same way.
Yeah.
so yeah, glutamate, it, it allows you to make the decisions and also by the
end of the day, there's so much of it, you can't make decisions anymore.
Decision fatigue is a real thing.
It's glutamate.
Mark: Yeah.
If you've run out of, so, so basically then you need to just
eat a boatload of Chinese food,
Brendan: I, uh, so that's MSG.
What's the, I don't
know if you're,
Mark: monosodium glutamate.
Brendan: Nice.
Nice.
Mark: Boo.
Brendan: man.
Um, so, so there was a, there's, um, a suggestion, there's like a couple of hacks
that you can do of like taking a siesta midday to, purge out some of the glutamate
can make it easier in the afternoon for you to be able to make choices.
There's another hack is like.
Limiting your decisions, especially early in the, early in the morning,
like taking the Steve Jobs approach of just having a uniform or a meal plan.
Uh,
Mark: listener.
I just pointed at my,
Brendan: hand on heart shirt.
Mark: my chest.
Brendan: or like meal planning and, and, and bulk making your meals and, and not,
not choosing what you're, doing first thing in the morning, when you get up,
like, like, try to just get outside and into the sun and rest, like, allow
yourself time to wake up and, and not necessarily make a bunch of decisions
first thing in the morning was the suggestion of, this, research study.
And yeah, I just, I, yeah, between that and the free will thing, I was just
like, like, yeah, okay, we learned this new thing and we can then kind of hack.
our free will a bit, uh, to make things, to make it easier to make
choices later in the day and earlier.
And there's also stuff about caffeine, which I didn't quite like, like, it's
not, it's not uncommon advice to like take a coffee nap where you quickly
drink a coffee and then lay down for
20 minutes.
Yeah.
or drinking coffee between not having your first coffee of the day until.
between 9 and 11 a.
m.
Um, which is supposed to, do something with Adenosine.
And, I don't know the, the, the, the, the research on that and the, and the
logic behind it doesn't make a lot of sense to me and to some people I follow.
And so that one's a bit like kind of weird.
But, you know, a siesta, hard to do, but, depending on, you know, an occupation
and everything, but, the winner for me.
I, man, that sounds, that sounds wonderful.
I'll take a nap.
Mark: How
Brendan: yeah.
Mark: your week been?
Brendan: man, I've been so, I've been so excited for our next segment,
Mark: Oh, well, that's
Brendan: so, so that's been, that's been just, That's been
just a joy.
That's been, it's just been very occupying
Mark: Good.
Brendan: and, oh man, I just had, I an emotional men's group yesterday.
a couple weeks prior in a different, men's meeting, I had said something
that had triggered somebody and they, they felt really dismissed
and, they were really upset.
Strongly thinking about leaving the group and, I had no idea until he had
mentioned it last week, saying like, you know, Hey, I've been feeling this
way, but he didn't give any details.
And then this week he, let us all know like what, what was going on for him.
Um, It was, it was, it was pretty emotional for all of us.
We were all kind of like tearing up.
I was super like shaky.
Cause I, I hate the idea of having hurt somebody.
And, and it wasn't really he understood that it wasn't me.
That wasn't what I'd said.
It wasn't, I didn't do anything to harm him.
And it was just the thing that I had said was triggering for
him because of his own trauma.
And then nobody kind of went back to him during the discussion
and checked in with him about
And like, we didn't really know, because he's kind of a quiet guy, and
we didn't really know that he wanted that or needed that in the moment.
And the topic, we were talking about, suicide and, taking
antidepressants to, prevent that.
And, the topic was brought up by another gentleman, and we were kind of all
focusing on, you know, Him and not the guy that was triggered because we didn't
know he was triggered and the other guy brought it up And we all kind of went
around and we're telling our story of our own challenges with with suicidality so
yeah, it was just kind of unfortunate.
It was nobody's fault really just It was a bummer, in the, in the moment
yesterday when he was revealing it, the, you know, his trigger point was
from something that I had said, which was kind of, I guess, just like, not
dismissing, medication, but trying to.
I wanted to talk about other options, like, yeah, that, that is one option,
but there are also other options.
Like we can, there's, there's pathways.
You can learn new things.
You can reroute neuro neurons and you know, there are options and heath.
He's struggled throughout his life to try those things and it hasn't worked
for him so he's on medication and feels like he has to be and so he kind of felt
like maybe there was a bit of a judgment there when there absolutely wasn't.
we all talked about it and it was, uh, yeah, it was pretty emotional.
But at the same, in the same, meeting, I got these two like
massive compliments I couldn't have.
Like, I didn't expect and I, I, I, I was an inspiration to one guy who,
like my demeanor, my, my happiness, my, my self, um, pleasure and confidence
was like a shining light to this guy.
And he was like, The first time he met me, he's like, is this even real?
Like, what is, what is going on here?
And then like, as he got to know me more, he's like, wow,
this, this is really genuine.
And I, like, I'm so inspired by this.
I want that so much.
And then another guy, who, the, who was the guy who, um,
who was recently divorced.
And I, you know, gave him the contrary advice
of, maybe being happy for his wife and his, his, Um, he gave me a compliment
too and was really, uh, just super happy I was there and, and pushing
people and then kind of like, you know, pushing boundaries and stuff.
And we all kind of came to the conclusion, like, we don't,
yeah, yeah, a trigger happened.
It's really great and, and, and vulnerable and open for him to
have come and shared that with us.
And we're, we're all really thankful for it.
And we all still want people to push our buttons and like push back on
if we say something and it's not quite, you know, maybe we have a
different thought or there's another way to look at it or whatever.
we, we all still want it universally.
We all still wanted that.
So that was really great.
I was really happy about that because.
That's, that's what I do is I say, that's what I, like, I always want
to be like, well, you know, sure, that's one way to think about it.
Let's, you know, there could be another way to think about it.
And, and people were turning to me and asking me like questions about
how, how I would reframe things.
I gave them a story about how my, uh, My favorite movie growing up, and
still maybe kind of to this day, sort of, I don't know, it's hard to pick
a favorite movie, is The Cable Guy.
And there's this moment where,
Mark: hmm.
Brendan: Jim Carrey walks into Matthew Broderick's apartment, and
there's no messages on the machine, and he goes, Nobody loves you.
And I For a long time, whenever I would look at my phone and there
was no text messages, there was no phone call, missed calls or whatever,
I would look at it and I would say either internally or externally, nobody
loves you, just in Jim Carrey's voice.
And I realized that that was bringing me down.
Like, it wasn't that there was no messages bringing me down.
It was me telling myself that, that really brought me down.
And about eight months ago or a year ago or so, I realized I was doing that.
And consciously made the choice, the free will choice to, say, everybody
loves me instead of nobody loves me.
And after it was hard to do, I would, I would say nobody loves me.
No, no, everybody loves me.
And I know not everybody loves me.
Like I'm not, but that's, that's beside the point.
A lot of people love me and everybody that matters
Mark: Mm
Brendan: to me, loves me.
And that's great.
That's great.
Thank you.
Mark: Also, if your heart is pure, there is no harm in Traversing the world with
the precept that everybody loves you
because That's just a more open and friendly way to be rather than to
constantly be skulking around the world with your, with a, you know,
with a, with a sense of defensiveness
or.
Being inward facing or not giving your true self or whatever it is, you
know, being snarky, being sarcastic, being any of these things that are
ultimately defense mechanisms, because you don't want to entertain the idea
that actually maybe you're fun to be around and people enjoy that.
And when you find the people who don't.
Yeah.
buy into your bullshit, you sort of go, okay, that's fine.
You know, but yeah, yeah, exactly.
Like,
yeah, like going through life with the precept that everybody loves you.
I don't think that's, that's harmful.
I think that's a, that's a, a nice, a nice way to live.
It's just like, I'm kind of cool and people like me
Brendan: Yeah.
Mark: should like me.
Brendan: Yeah.
And now I look at my phone and no matter what's on the screen,
I'm, now it's just neutral.
I don't, I don't say either to myself and I don't feel bad.
I don't feel good.
I just, I'm like, okay, there's the phone.
It's right in front of me.
and, and that feels really good.
That feels really good.
yeah, I'm not, I'm not like, as, as wanting any more for.
people to have been reaching out to me.
And, uh, I, I had been at a, at a point where I was like, man,
I wish people would just text me more like to show me they love me.
Cause that's how I tell, and cause that's how I show my love is I, I send, you
know, like, Oh, this, this, uh, this video made me think of you, or the song
made me think, I think you'd really like this song or, you know, whatever.
And I send it to somebody cause that's, a path of love for me to
send and, and I want that in return.
And I wanted that so much that it was bringing me down because I wasn't getting
it, that's not how everybody shows love.
We all have different love languages.
That was cool at the, at the men's group.
yeah, I also came up with a new business idea that, uh, I'm, I
haven't shared with you before.
And.
I'm, I'm really not sure about it.
I, uh, there's just so much stigma.
And, I even, I guess I even have it within myself.
But, uh, I think it's a really great idea.
in a past life, you probably don't know this about me.
I have been quite the shoplifter.
Mark: Huh.
That doesn't me.
Brendan: Great
Yeah
Mark: I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't know how, like, what, like, what you were
supposed to do with that information.
But, yeah.
In
Brendan: when I was when I was a child, definitely I you know What is money?
Mark: Mm
Brendan: But then growing up like still still just kept the habit of it
And then, uh, in my, in my previous marriage, it was condoned and encouraged.
Mark: huh
Brendan: then, you know, just, I, I became really good at it.
and so I've, I've, I've, I learned a lot of things about how to.
how to plan, how to look around without looking like you're looking around,
how to be aware of where people are and where they're moving and their patterns.
And it just, it just kind of became second nature.
so I developed this skill that is counterculture.
Mark: Sure.
Brendan: And it came to mind,
Mark: Okay.
Brendan: like, how could I put this to a profitable use that maybe
isn't taking away from others.
And I thought about creating a company that would perform shoplifting audits.
And it would be like hiring a secret shopper that doesn't shop.
Mark: Mm-Hmm?
Brendan: And
Mark: Shoplifter.
Yeah.
Brendan: exactly.
I found a, I found a pretty good.
com I don't know, I'm just, I'm, I'm toying with the idea.
Yeah.
It's, it's not.
You know, I, I've been, okay.
So, I've been diversifying a bit lately.
I, I, like we just talked about, this week I made a new website for my podcast
editing and I'm, I'm in the process of regaining my electrical license so that
I can do, uh, electrician work again.
Mark: Nice.
Brendan: and also at the same time this week, I've had more inquiries into
remodeling and consulting and stuff.
And it feels like the universe is a bit like, all right, you're expanding.
Now we'll just.
We'll give,
and then that feels good.
And, and, and at the same time, I'm having this idea of like another avenue.
It wouldn't have to be necessarily full time.
Maybe it could be, you know, if I get there, but like just an
interesting thing to also have.
Mark: It's a gig.
Brendan: it's a gig.
So yeah, thinking about it.
And the, you know, the, the hardest part is kind of just
admitting to people who don't know, like people have an idea of me.
Of, of like conscientious and like, okay,
a great example of this is my therapist from a year ago.
I, I told her after, after maybe like seven to 10 sessions, you
know, we, we, we got to know each other pretty well already.
And I, I told her that in my youth, I shoplifted and she was like, Oh, wow.
I.
Had, I didn't expect that of you.
Obviously she has some judgment around shoplifting and it's not
an anti capitalist like I am.
And, and that, that made me like, it made it really, I actually felt myself back
away from her and I, like, I couldn't, I couldn't open up to her about things
that I felt like she would judge me about
anymore, which, so I couldn't, you know, I stayed with her for
a little bit longer cause I still had some things I needed to process
that I knew she could help me with.
But.
I was like, okay, well, this is, this is game over here.
Mark: Yeah, one of the things I've realized is yep there is
there is gradiation in quality of
Brendan: Oh
yeah.
Oh yeah.
Hmm.
Mark: a conversation with someone for list envy a few weeks ago when I asked
them about I think I asked her what she thought about BetterHelp, and, she said
what you tend to get, and this absolutely jibed with my experience, or my judgment
of the experience, is you tend to get less experienced therapists on that platform
because it doesn't pay that well for them,
Brendan: Yeah.
Mark: because obviously BetterHelp is going to take
their cut, and, uh, That tracked.
It's like, yep, that, that, that makes sense with my experience.
So, yeah.
And, and having had a, you know, someone before who I saw in person and
who I was able to tell pretty shaming stuff to, and always be met with.
A way to feel okay about that and not a sense of judgment.
yeah, it makes a big difference man alive Yeah, but that feeling
of of yeah, you feeling like you've been judged by your therapist.
It stings It's like isn't that the like the one thing
like
Brendan: supposed to do.
Mark: number one that you're not meant to do?
Brendan: Yeah.
Yeah.
And she did, she definitely didn't do it in a way that was like, Oh
my God, dude, what are you doing?
It was like, you know, it's like, Oh, I'm, I'm surprised.
I.
Didn't expect that from you.
That kind of thing.
And
it's like,
Mark: that kind of, that kind of language is like, Ooh, don't know, like, especially
if you are sensitive to the fact that someone might be sensitive to judgment.
no,
Brendan: Yeah.
I don't feel like I'm sensitive to judgment, but I am, you know, I'm a human.
Yeah.
Mark: you know, you've made yourself vulnerable, um, by sharing in something
in that you thought was a safe space.
And it's not that it's not a safe space, but it's just like, Oh, a little
bit harder edged than I expected.
Brendan: Yeah.
For sure.
Mark: And, you know, I remember that from, um, in a very different scenario, but
I remember that in the standup course, just sort of noting like, ah, right.
Yes.
In this particular scenario, I don't feel as safe as I might.
And that I don't, I don't, love that.
And that's just, you know, there is a cliche around, I don't know.
Cause it's like I had this cliche or not cliche, but, um, presupposition,
like when I did the improv course that it might be a bit.
Less say, and like the guy who ran it is a bit of a, he was a bit of
a, he was a, yeah, it was a bit of a guy, but he ran a very safe.
Room, a very safe space.
Um, some of his views as they came out later, like, yeah, I don't love that.
Some of the things you support.
I don't love that.
But actually when he came to running a room of strangers of,
you know, improvisers who are about to make themselves look silly,
deliberately in front of people, like he did that quite well.
and I, I went to a session when I was at my hippie thing.
and I saw the extreme end of what that looks like.
Uh, and it was really interesting, like the extreme end of, I'm going to
look after you and you're not going to be made to feel foolish, even if,
you know, I'm asking you to be silly.
Like,
it's really interesting.
and then when you feel what that's like when, yeah, you're
not quite held in that way.
It's just, yeah, it's just less, just makes you want to go back less.
Brendan: Yeah.
Absolutely.
Mark: Yeah.
Brendan: So do you want to, uh, Do you want to, stop putting off what everybody
is here for and, uh, and get to the
real topic?
Mark: Let's rip off the,
Brendan: shaved your beard!
Mark: yep, I did.
yeah.
Tuesday, I think I, I lopped it all off.
Brendan: Wow.
How long have you been growing it?
Mark: this time since 2021, I think,
Brendan: Wow.
Mark: yeah, I think, I think it was 2021 when I, when I last got
red and when I last saw my chins,
here's this guy.
Brendan: uh, anything in particular prompted, or?
Mark: Yeah, it's kind of, um, maintenance because like
in order for it to look.
As good as I, as good as it can do, if I'm honest, cause it can look all right.
the speed at which my beard grows is it's quite fast and it can, tends
to grow outwards to the side, which is not a good look for me at all.
and you know, it's, it's really hard to keep it sort of trim.
and I don't know that I trust myself to do the grooming.
Maybe, maybe I can get, I've got a good set of, of clippers.
I've got, which is what I used to, to, you know, lop all of it off now.
Well, I took a bunch of kitchen scissors to it first.
Brendan: Mm hmm.
Mark: and then, you know, and then, then the thing, And maybe I could
get a bit of sculpting knowledge.
I don't know, but it's like, it's, it's sometimes it's just, it's just, yeah, no.
yeah, so I, it was, it was one of those, I was just like, yeah, from a
maintenance issue, I probably look better.
with it off, even with the chins than I do when three out of four weeks it's
just like poof out to the side and I look
Brendan: Uh,
Mark: yeah.
Brendan: I've I've never noticed that, but,
Mark: Well, thank you.
And also, you know, there is increasing an amount of salt in the salt and
pepper beard, which And you know a fleck of that a a streak of that it's
fine but actually like it does make me look a lot younger when I take
Take off the uh, take off the beard.
So yeah.
Brendan: I sent you the, the, the salt parody of the James Hoffman video.
There's salt, salt, salt, salt, salt, and salt.
Yeah, I love that video.
Okay, dude.
It's time.
We gotta, We gotta, do, we gotta do the song words.
I'm so excited
Mark: it.
All right,
Brendan: I've been, so excited.
Mark: not song was it's it's it's legally
Brendan: It's song.
Mark: It's a melody battle
Brendan: Melody Battle.
It is time for Melody Battle.
Tm,
Tm, Tm.
Mark: Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Brendan: Toontumult?
Is that what you said?
Mark: I did
Brendan: Wonderful.
Toontumult.
Mark: tune tumult.
Have you got any preamble for your song?
So last week, uh listener we uh decided that the The theme for our first
inaugural tune tumult tumult tumult was Gay the words game changer we,
we had a memory disagreement in the, we remember, I remembered it wrong.
Brendan remembered it right, but we both disobeyed the rule, uh, about duration.
So, um, apart
Brendan: Yeah, yeah, you didn't remember.
I, I willingly defied the
Mark: willingly, yeah, defied the rule.
Brendan: Yeah, but we're, yeah, our plan, our plan is 90 seconds to 2 minutes ish.
I think, I think,
that's great.
Mark: I think is good.
Brendan: Yeah, which, which, which, like, totally fits.
That's how I write songs anyway.
I love, to write a short and, and to the point, like that was what lack of
content was all about is like, it's just, we don't have long songs here.
It's just, it's just, we're just short
songs
getting
good out.
Yeah.
one, one thing I really love about the song that I wrote is
a bunch of like inside jokes.
just a bunch of little, uh, little lines that, mostly from that episode.
but there's also some, some bigger reoccurring themes in there.
And, I don't know, I just, I, I, I love how catchy the song is,
and I haven't been able to stop.
Singing it to myself and, and Mark and I have been singing
it to each other and stuff.
So, yeah, I present to you.
Game changer.
Songs: I've been playing by the rules, lost in the maze.
Chasing shadows in a world that's just a phase.
But now I'm breaking free, leaving all of the doubt.
Ready to ignite the spark that's burning out.
I see the colors fade, but I'm not afraid of stepping through the
portal where my dreams are made.
With every heartbeat, I'm rewriting my fate.
It's time to rise up, I won't h h h hesitate.
I'm a game changer, on an epic quest.
Not making a high score, just giving my best.
Walking through the fire, I'm ready to spark this convergence, oh lord.
I'll light up the dark!
Every quest in turn, I'm stronger inside.
From the ashes I'll burn, I'm ready to ride.
Through the trials and the tears, I'll embrace the fight.
In this game of life, I'm chasing the light.
I'm a game changer, on an epic quest.
Not making the high score, just giving my best.
Walking through the fire, I'm ready to start.
This convergent cellar, a line of the dark.
Mark: damn son, you've got some skills
Brendan: Thank you mate.
Mark: that is uh, wow I love how I love your soaring vocals.
I love the positivity.
I love the Yeah, i'm not making the high school.
I'm just doing my best.
I love the full throatedness of the singing and I love the I love how
you've mixed that in at the end.
Yeah, like that's that's some shit.
I uh, I can't do um, that's really cool.
That is that is fun That is a fun song
Brendan: Yeah, I did use AI to help me out a little
Mark: Really?
Brendan: did.
I did.
I get I,
Mark: I didn't expect that of you.
Brendan: I know.
I
Mark: now go tell me about that.
Brendan: so I, I, I wrote a bunch of the, the inside joke lines that
I wanted to have incorporated.
And I was like, Hey, chat GBT, can you just like fill this out a little bit?
Yeah.
And so all the lines that are kind of just like, not necessarily about the, the show
Mark: Yes.
Brendan: kind of just like fluff lines to get you
Mark: Yeah.
They're the mashed potatoes.
Yeah,
Brendan: yeah, yeah, yeah, the, the lines, like, that I'm really proud, I
mean, obviously Game Changer, and that, and that having the, the topic, the, the,
the style kind of be like chiptuney and
Mark: Yep.
Yep.
Brendan: of, all of the lyrics kind of being gamified, that was,
that was kind of my tweaking and yeah, not making the high score.
I felt like that was, that was, cause that was something that we had talked
about on the previous episode of like, I don't feel like I'm achieving a high
score this round, this, this ego life.
And so that was kind of in my head.
walking through the fire was the documentary that we were talking
about in the previous episode.
obviously I threw convergence in there cause I thought that would be fun.
Lighting up the dark to me was like enlightening somebody who's like
keeping themselves in the dark.
that was kind of my thought about around that.
and then I had Through the trials and the tears was kind of an allusion to, the
arbitration stuff that we went through and, yeah, there was a bunch of the, it
was just, man, it was just so fun when it, it all just came together so quick.
I finished it on day two,
Mark: Yeah.
I was going to say like you, cause you'd started it on Friday.
Brendan: I started on a
Mark: and then, wow.
Amazing.
Brendan: And I think I tweaked it.
the next couple of days after that, but it was, it was like 99 percent done and
I was just adding a little extra things.
so I've been, I've been kind of working on some music stuff, for the past,
A couple months I've had my head in the game of wanting to make music
stuff since I did Mushrooms and, and wrote that poetry and was like, Oh, I
really want to do something with this.
And I'm working on that and working on that with, with Cameron and
he's going to be helping me kind of, so he's an opera singer.
He knows a lot about music theory and, and stuff.
And like, we're going to kind of combine our skills to make something
that's really, that's Weird, hopefully.
Uh, I don't know.
We'll see.
I'm so glad you liked it.
I've been, I've been so dying to play this for you.
So, I'm, and I'm, I'm super excited to hear what, uh, what you've come
up with and what's, what's going on.
So tell me about it.
What's the, what's the preamble?
What's, what you got, what you got
Mark: I might just hit play.
and then, and then you can, we can, we can go from there.
there is, less significance.
this, all happened today.
Brendan: Wonderful.
Mark: the, idea came to me in the shower at the gym.
Of what it was going to be.
so here it is.
It's called Game Changer
Brendan: Mmm.
Mmm.
Songs: I'm sick of pretending to be a friendly, affable, nice guy, very
mean, and it's time you all knew it.
I'm going to say some things that I've wanted to say for a long time.
Oh boy, these aren't my real thoughts.
This is totally off the dome.
If you wanna start a revolution, throw a six and climb the ladder, Add a tad
of piss and adder, Matter points will drop the hammer if you climb before
the adoration, Patient is the potion that'll heal a broken nation, Sticks
and stones will break bones while I drop bombs, Rhymes like air drones
delivering love from me to you, Now can I get a witness worthy of a cringe?
Well, no doubt we're still sick.
If you wanna make a ruckus, then a plan can be arranged, But better call me
Samuraish because the game done changed.
Hey, you've only just begun to pull the thread on this sweater!
You would think in a game with only two possible correct choices, that
one would stumble into the right answer every so often, wouldn't you?
In fact, the probability of never guessing right in the full
game is a statistical wonder!
And yet, here we are!
Oh, you made a podcast?
Well, I've quit about a dozen, doesn't matter why.
There ain't no way to stop this brain from buzzing, wasn't it yesterday I came up?
So don't call me your discussant, cause I'll federate your mother!
And I'll syndicate your cousin.
Run him up on the open where my rhymes get slicker.
Can I concatenate all of the characters?
Gettin your calories countin quicker.
I make it to Mac and my buttons up like the original Joysticker.
Playin the game?
I've been playin the game and my monitor don't even flicker.
If you wanna take the king, you better drag him off the stage.
But if you mischeck, mate, my dude, the game done changed.
Brendan: Holy shit, dude!
Oh,
Mark: I was supposed to have done some work today and I didn't and I did
Brendan: you did, you did better.
Holy shit, dude.
Wow.
Oh my god, the, the, the, the, the Brennan and, and Rice quotes, the,
the fucking, the rapping, dude.
Like,
that's some skills.
I had, I had no idea you had that in you.
Holy
shit.
Did you do the whistling?
Mark: no, no, no, no.
that I was, I was trying to find something suitably Dixieland vintage.
So that is
Brendan: Mm hmm.
Mark: not a sample, but yeah, it's royalty free
Brendan: incredible, dude.
Holy shit.
I'm blown away.
I love it.
Mark: Yeah, it was fun writing those lyrics.
Brendan: damn.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Oh my, wow.
I'm gonna be, that's gonna be on a repeat.
Holy shit.
You gotta, you gotta send me that.
Are we, we gotta, we, uh, are we gonna like post these to a
YouTube channel or something?
Mark: Something, um, yeah.
So, I,
So, Hi, I started a blog today.
Brendan: Hello, Mark Steadman of the new, the new
Mark: of the new blog, because I wanted a place to put, like, stuff like this,
and, just, like, talk about the weird and the wonderful and all the, the stuff
that I'm into and, like, care about.
last week,
Brendan: Holy shit, I am fucking, I cannot, that's incredible.
I thought I had such, I had a, I thought I had the winner,
Mark: It's not a competition.
This is not a competition.
Brendan: It's a tumult.
Mark: it's a tumult.
Brendan: Actually, I don't even know what a tumult
Mark: No, I think, I think we're using the word wrong.
but yeah.
Brendan: loud, confused noise, especially one caused by a large mass of people.
Mark: Oh, there you go.
Yeah, that that
Brendan: And that actually works.
Mark: It's pretty good.
Um, it's definitely a confused noise
Brendan: Toon tumult.
Mark: Yes, so
Brendan: See you blog.
Mark: a few weeks ago
Brendan: Uh huh.
Mark: talked about A website called web3 is going just great
Brendan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark: written by molly white.
who I hope it is not Problematic to say Definitely going to be my future wife.
Um, the, I'm sure there are lots of people who would, who would say the same.
She's
just wonderful.
Um, she's just, she's just my kind of person in, in, in, and what I mean by that
is she gave this talk at XOXO, last week.
About the open web.
and I, I make the joke about her being, my, my future wife.
I think she's probably about 10 to 15 years.
No, not that many years, my junior, but I think, I think she might be late
twenties, early thirties, which is all the more interesting considering she
is a proponent of the web as people like me, and perhaps you remember it.
Brendan: Right.
Mark: which is full of independent stuff, full of weird stuff, full of stuff that
we own ourselves, rather than, you know, on platforms that we've given over.
So, you know, fuck Medium, fuck Substack with its support of Nazis, fuck, you
know, all, all of these different systems.
you know, Facebook and X and all that bullshit.
Not that it's all bad, but like just that sense of recognizing a
web that we felt like we owned.
And then we felt that that was ours.
Brendan: Mm
Mark: And, you know, she talked about building websites in, in, you know,
like hand coding stuff in Neo pets.
And then in my space and like, just the idea of making stuff that's weird and it's
yours and it's all that kind of stuff.
And I was, I just watched the talk and I thought this brilliant.
This is just like, yes.
And my ax just like I'm thoroughly behind this.
and it's just, there's been a few things that have been slotting
into place in terms of wanting to.
Have a place to talk about that stuff, have a place to share,
share the stuff that I think is interesting and, Pres like, yeah,
thinking about preserving the web.
Like, that's, you know, that's why there's a little allusion to
it in the, in the, in the track.
Like, when I'm upon the open web, my rhymes get slicker because
like, I, you know, I kind of, you know, make a little nod to that.
and so, yeah, I set up a little, blog, um, in my writing, hour
that I facilitate on a Friday.
I just use that to get it set up on ghost and write, write a quick post.
and so, you know, stuff like this, I've also, I've also posted an
episode of Convergence to it because like, I don't really talk about
Convergence and I'm so happy with it.
It's such a good show.
and so, you know, posting a little blog post for each episode as, as
it comes out and yes, with your, I don't know, uh, permission is the
right word, but with your blessing,
Brendan: Blessed.
Mark: I think I would like to put the songs on maybe, and I was thinking
about this, so I'm toying with, and I don't expect anyone to sign up for
it, but I just thought I'll make the infrastructure there, and then I can
think about it at a later point, of like, you know, people want to throw in some
money to just say we like what you do.
Brendan: hmm.
Mark: Then I was like, for those people, maybe they get it super early.
There's the song, maybe they get it, I don't know.
But yeah, so, but yeah, I definitely liked the idea of, of, of putting
the song up there, we can, like you said, put it up on YouTube.
We can, hey, in fact, this could be fun.
If we use something like Amuse.
Brendan: Mm hmm.
Oh, I'd definitely, I'd love to do that.
You'd have to, I don't know if you don't need to get rights
for those samples or not,
Mark: Uh, the samples I'm okay with, because they're royalty free.
I think apples you're all ready, You're all always good for.
The Brennan and thingy would have to, yeah, they'd have to go.
Brendan: Oh, that's what I meant.
Yeah, yeah,
Yeah,
Mark: yes.
yeah,
yeah, they'd have to go.
Unless I, I could revoice them.
Brendan: yeah.
yeah.
You
yeah.
You
Mark: yeah, yeah, Uh, but there's some, there's some options there.
Cause I definitely do like the idea.
Like if we're going to keep doing this, they, you know, they do
need to be collected and preserved
and, and made whole into their own little thing, um, so that, yeah, people can.
I went back to, so there used to be a show called flat 29's big
book of everything, which is still.
Brendan: Okay.
Mark: Uh, available online.
And it was these three young lads from the UK.
I think they were like uni, university friends, and then they kind of stayed
in touch and they made this, they used to do little bits of internet
japery, um, and they had this show.
I only found out about it because I used to very briefly run a podcast review site.
I was possibly one of the earlier ones doing it.
I
Brendan: did too, but that was not one of the early ones.
Mark: no, well, yeah, yeah.
this was 2009.
and I gave someone an excoriating review.
Brendan: Mm.
Uhhuh
Mark: In a very internet, keyboard warrior kind of way.
It was a shitty review.
but it was also kind of a shitty podcast, uh, made by people
who had access to do better.
and they read it.
Um, and I think like one of them was a comedian, the other one was not.
And I think the comedian kind of quite sanguine and, you know, fine.
But the other guy, I think he was like hurt by it.
Like he, he didn't see, he was kind of, yeah.
Like, cause he kept picking, like I'd misspelled the word and he kept
like picking it apart and stuff.
And like, he really, yeah, he really didn't like it.
I completely lost my bottle, sorry, that's a British phrase, I completely, like,
lost my nerve, and I even changed my internet name for a long time, like, I, I
really, I got no blowback, I mean, I just, I think I just felt, I
felt bad, and I felt like that had, oh, that had an impact, like, that
Brendan: Yep, yep, yep,
yep.
And I didn't like how it felt.
Mark: And I didn't like how it felt.
Brendan: Uhhuh.
Mark: yes, yes, it is.
that site, while it was up, a guy from flat 29 wrote to me
and said, we have this podcast.
And I started listening to it.
I don't really, I enjoyed it.
you know, there are bits that are like a bit naive and a bit like, you
know, whatever, but there was some good stuff in there and they used
to make a song, I think every week, three, I can't remember if it was.
It might have been not each one of them made a song each week.
I think it might have cycled.
Whichever way I know one of one of the three of them was not necessarily
The, the musician of the group, but the other two kind of were, and there
was one that I think back to a lot because it was an absolute banger.
unfortunately they used, so when they put it on the podcast, they used music
that they did not have the royalty
Brendan: Yeah.
Mark: great melody.
and it's so, it was so catchy.
And it was just like this a little bit like the, you know, the, the
sort of not Dixieland, but like, it was a kind of a, you know,
1920s kind of jazzy kind of thing.
it, they, they, they wrote their own lyrics and it was like Marjorie.
So, so the, the, the premise was, it was a love song for an octogenarian.
And so it's like Marjorie, I get a funny feeling when you look at me,
baby, I can see what's going on.
I just want to find the time to make your mind Marjorie.
It's, it was just such a little bop.
And then there's a rap and all that kind of stuff.
So it was definitely kind of challenge channeling a little bit.
what they ended up doing is they released a little album on
iTunes as it was back in the day.
and they had to, that one, they had to swap out the melody and it just wasn't
quite as memorable, but yeah, like, you know, that's a, that's something
we can, we can do and have fun with.
I mean, let's see how we are in two weeks time.
but
yeah,
Brendan: if we can keep up this.
Uh, but, but like fucking out of the gate, dude.
Like this is some quality shit.
Oh my god,
Mark: I had fun.
I kept, cause I was, I was doing some client work today and I kept like having
little lyric ideas in my head and I had to pause what I was doing and go
and write them down and try and find, you know, all these little, you know,
cause there's little internal rhymes and all that kind of stuff in there.
I've
never written anything quite so fast.
Brendan: Yeah.
Mark: yeah, so that was a challenge and I didn't think
I'd be able to do it at speed.
But most part no way it was all at speed like I had to take a couple of takes
Because breathing is difficult.
But
Brendan: Wow, dude.
I am so impressed.
I I I fucking love it.
Holy shit.
I'm a bit speechless.
I'm just blown away.
I
Mark: no, no,
Brendan: really thought I was going to win this thing.
Not that it's a competition.
It's not
a
competition.
I know.
Mark: No, this is competition.
Brendan: I was like, Oh shit, I'm going first.
Sorry, man.
But, uh,
Mark: I love it.
I love it.
Brendan: But no, I've, I've been, I've been humbled.
Mark: I was, no, well, to be honest, I was expecting, This is one of, one of
the great, the great worries is like, you do something that's really earnest
and, and, which you did, it was earnest,
but like, that's like deeply emotionally resonant.
And then I come along with my silly rap song.
Like that was very much a risk.
Brendan: No, it's pretty I, I just fucking love how we came at it from different
Mark: Completely different angles.
Brendan: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I super, I super loved your, your Game Changer quotes and, and
the Brennan rants and Oh my god.
I, I, uh I, I saw somebody did a little like, uh, of one of those rants.
Somebody did an animated version of it on YouTube.
And I, I, I think about that occasionally because it's just so, man, his
rants, uh, that, that dude is just,
yeah.
Like you said, it's a phenom.
It's just incredible.
Mark: Yeah.
Get in the comments.
there you go.
Get in the comments.
I'm hungry now.
Brendan: Oh yeah, oh wow, um, I, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, as always,
print.
But what I, what I really mean is, um,
Oh, I lost it.
Uh,