1 00:00:00,078 --> 00:00:04,979 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of iGaming Daily where, and I feel like I start every 2 00:00:05,099 --> 00:00:10,000 single podcast saying this, we're in sunny, well, Lisbon now. It was Barcelona last year, 3 00:00:10,020 --> 00:00:15,102 but we're in sunny Lisbon and it is sunny, it's roasting, but we're at the SPC Summit and I'm 4 00:00:15,142 --> 00:00:20,643 joined by Jessica Wellman, the editor of SPC Americas and Callum Williams, the senior journalist 5 00:00:20,723 --> 00:00:23,764 at Payment Expert. How are you both doing today? Enjoying Lisbon? 6 00:00:29,610 --> 00:00:34,471 Um, cause it's so massive. So I've just dabbled so far in the event and ready to see what more 7 00:00:34,491 --> 00:00:39,312 there is. Yeah. I've got lost a few times already. I've only been here about two hours. So, yeah, 8 00:00:39,372 --> 00:00:45,374 it's, uh, it's, uh, you say about 10 times bigger than Barcelona. 10 times. Maybe. I don't know. 9 00:00:45,394 --> 00:00:48,935 10 times bigger than that. I know it, I think it's like two or three times the size. Um, 10 00:00:49,135 --> 00:00:53,856 I mean, they've doubled the amount of, um, people that are expected to come here this week. Um, 11 00:00:53,896 --> 00:00:56,237 which is incredible. I remember my first. 12 00:01:00,022 --> 00:01:04,183 just after COVID and that was, I think there was only half the size then that there was 13 00:01:04,223 --> 00:01:08,645 expected due to restrictions. I think it was like 5,000 there at the time. So to see the 14 00:01:08,685 --> 00:01:12,547 growth of the year on year and what I'm seeing now, it is no under understatement that it 15 00:01:12,647 --> 00:01:17,109 is massive. Yeah. And I've only managed to get to the casino halls cause I'm running left, 16 00:01:17,149 --> 00:01:22,552 right and center with interviews in that section. But if it's you're doubling, you tripling that 17 00:01:22,572 --> 00:01:25,013 cause I think you've got two other halls with sports betting section and then you've got 18 00:01:25,033 --> 00:01:29,178 the affiliate and payment zones as well. Mm hmm. My legs already hurt and I really shouldn't 19 00:01:29,198 --> 00:01:34,540 have played football yesterday. It was a rookie move. Before we delve into the aristocat, light 20 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,763 and wonder topic, just a quick shout out to our supporter of the iGaming Daily podcast 21 00:01:39,803 --> 00:01:44,264 and that's Optimove, the number one CRM marketing solution for the iGaming market. For listeners 22 00:01:44,324 --> 00:01:49,947 out there, you can still claim your first month of Optimove by visiting optimove.com forward 23 00:01:49,967 --> 00:01:55,489 slash SBC. Again, I'll leave links in the description below. But no, thank you for joining us and 24 00:01:55,589 --> 00:02:00,084 we're going to talk. We're not really gonna do it the usual way we would at an event where 25 00:02:00,104 --> 00:02:04,207 we talk about kind of trends that are happening or what we've been up to. Because one, we've 26 00:02:04,227 --> 00:02:08,951 just got here. But also there's an interesting development in America's, Jess, in America 27 00:02:08,991 --> 00:02:13,955 with Light and Wonder and Aristocrat, correct? Yes. So for those keeping track, Light and 28 00:02:13,995 --> 00:02:20,821 Wonder has a number of lawsuits pending. The two that really have been getting a lot of 29 00:02:20,861 --> 00:02:24,103 play are one from Aristocrat and one from Evolution, both saying, 30 00:02:27,946 --> 00:02:32,650 In this aristocrat one, what's happened today is that a judge has granted what's called a 31 00:02:32,730 --> 00:02:39,516 preliminary injunction and the action is essentially that Light and Wonder is not allowed to offer 32 00:02:39,577 --> 00:02:48,304 its Dragon Link game anymore or not anymore until the case reaches a resolution. The matter 33 00:02:48,344 --> 00:02:53,549 at hand in the case is Dragon Train and this other game Dragon Link and whether or not Light 34 00:02:53,569 --> 00:03:00,990 and Wonder by hiring a former aristocrat engineer has basically copycatted the game. What some 35 00:03:01,110 --> 00:03:05,453 outlets are getting wrong about this, this is not a resolution in the case. The judge is 36 00:03:05,493 --> 00:03:11,276 simply saying, looking at the merits of the case, it stands to reason that aristocrat could 37 00:03:11,317 --> 00:03:17,961 win and that they have a claim. And since they do, until this case is done, you can't offer 38 00:03:18,001 --> 00:03:23,443 this game anymore. Light and Wonder is going to appeal that injunction and then obviously 39 00:03:23,463 --> 00:03:28,144 they're going to continue to go to trial with the rest of the case and Aristocrat taking 40 00:03:28,224 --> 00:03:34,606 a bit of a victory lap, but perhaps in its communications overstating exactly what this means. Yeah, 41 00:03:34,686 --> 00:03:38,747 I mean, just listen, we're going to talk about payments later with Callum, but this is an 42 00:03:38,767 --> 00:03:42,448 interesting story and it's one that ever since I joined the industry about four and a half 43 00:03:42,488 --> 00:03:47,549 years ago, I was a writer on slot beats. And my first impression when looking at slots was 44 00:03:47,569 --> 00:03:54,584 like... How the hell do they get past copyright infringements anywhere due to kind of how closely 45 00:03:54,624 --> 00:04:01,088 they tie stuff to films? An example, I'm not going to name the company, but they made a 46 00:04:01,148 --> 00:04:05,730 slot title and it was pretty much based off, you're like, this is a cartoon. So it fits 47 00:04:05,750 --> 00:04:10,953 my narrative. Of course it's a cartoon. It's always a cartoon with you. But the film surfs 48 00:04:11,033 --> 00:04:16,266 up, I don't know, are you aware of it? I'm cognizant it exists and that's about it. I have watched 49 00:04:16,287 --> 00:04:19,107 the film. Yeah, should I shoot up on the... Yeah, you know how they got around this? Because 50 00:04:19,127 --> 00:04:23,869 you're the only person that's watched Surfed Up and even noticed. Wait, Shia LaBeouf was 51 00:04:23,889 --> 00:04:30,251 in it, it was fantastic. Like Penguin Surfing. But they literally, it was a like for like, 52 00:04:30,711 --> 00:04:35,192 copying of Surf's Up for that slot title. And even in my head I was like, how are they getting 53 00:04:35,212 --> 00:04:39,673 around this? Because it's so close to the actual product that it has to be copyright infringement 54 00:04:39,693 --> 00:04:43,740 in some way. there's no license to it because it's not the actual surf, like surf or film. 55 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:49,884 Stacey Doe Let me clarify. So do these games both involve dragons? Sure. That's not really 56 00:04:49,924 --> 00:04:56,988 what the issue is. The issue is the mechanic and the random number generator, how often 57 00:04:57,048 --> 00:05:00,891 and frequency of payments, what triggers those payments. That's what they're challenging. 58 00:05:00,951 --> 00:05:05,274 I mean, they are like, and by the way, it's also even a dragon, but that's kind of the 59 00:05:05,334 --> 00:05:12,967 tangential piece of this. And what's at play here is less that Cause I think that you know 60 00:05:12,987 --> 00:05:17,829 better than I do, James. It seems like there's waves in slots where like it's gonna be barnyard 61 00:05:17,869 --> 00:05:21,752 critters this year and everybody's gonna have farm animals. And then next year it's gonna 62 00:05:21,772 --> 00:05:29,236 be, you know, dragons and unicorns and things like that. So you have those kind of lookalike 63 00:05:29,316 --> 00:05:35,239 games and that's a bit of a different issue. This one is like the design and the mechanic 64 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,481 and the thing that makes this game compelling is what you are stealing. Yeah. I think my... 65 00:05:39,862 --> 00:05:43,363 point was kind of... Oh, I wanted to clarify because I realised... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It 66 00:05:43,383 --> 00:05:46,525 was a good thing to clarify. I think mine was because it was so closely tied to the film 67 00:05:46,545 --> 00:05:51,767 that it was indistinguishable to me being a huge cartoon source up fan that it baffled 68 00:05:51,787 --> 00:05:55,309 me how they get around it. But when you actually come to the mechanical side of things, that 69 00:05:55,409 --> 00:06:00,451 is a lot, I think it's a lot actually easier. I mean, there's like spreadsheets in this, 70 00:06:00,651 --> 00:06:05,233 in the evidence that's like, hi, this woman used to work here and now she works here and... 71 00:06:05,906 --> 00:06:09,990 left with this spreadsheet, and if you look at their spreadsheet, it's set up the exact 72 00:06:10,030 --> 00:06:16,777 same way. It's a bigger trail than, well, maybe I just also thought about how fun it would 73 00:06:16,817 --> 00:06:22,282 be if penguins served. I guess I'll also ask a question, Jess, just jumping in. Is there 74 00:06:22,342 --> 00:06:28,328 any type of trademark or copyright rules regarding those type of mechanics, or is it just, is 75 00:06:28,849 --> 00:06:34,832 it a bit more vague? So that's a bit of what the evolution lawsuit is, is about a product 76 00:06:34,852 --> 00:06:42,896 called Lightning Roulette, where it's a new game. The concept of the game itself is copyrighted 77 00:06:42,996 --> 00:06:51,120 and patented. And then they're arguing that Lightning X, which, Roulette X is what they 78 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,991 call it, the Light and Wonder product. is the same idea where it's roulette, but you can 79 00:06:56,071 --> 00:07:04,014 hit like a bonus essentially and get paid a bunch. So yeah, you can patent the game itself. 80 00:07:04,274 --> 00:07:09,416 You can also file copyrights and stuff on names and things like that. But it's a weird one 81 00:07:09,436 --> 00:07:13,878 because it's no joke that there's so many slots on so many different mechanics flooding the 82 00:07:13,918 --> 00:07:18,100 market each day, let alone each week, each week, let alone each day. Sorry, I'll do it that 83 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:23,838 way. But you're always going to have some crossover. So, and I don't know what I am literally going 84 00:07:23,878 --> 00:07:29,860 off my suits knowledge, the Netflix show, well it is a Netflix show to me, where it's like, 85 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:35,023 is it like a 30 to 35% kind of similarity? Then you kind of cross over to the patent thing, 86 00:07:35,043 --> 00:07:40,285 you have to get it under 30% difference? I don't know, I'm- I mean this is my suits knowledge, 87 00:07:40,685 --> 00:07:45,107 this is sort of a trade in to like US law. For those of you who listen to Charlie and I, at 88 00:07:45,147 --> 00:07:51,089 least once an episode I have to remind everyone I am not a lawyer, so don't quote me on this 89 00:07:51,209 --> 00:07:57,546 one. They didn't in this particular one, they didn't speak about a threshold of percentage, 90 00:07:57,666 --> 00:08:02,449 but that might be the case. Yeah, I think again, I am going off Suits knowledge here, but it's 91 00:08:02,509 --> 00:08:08,874 also kind of away from iGaming. There's a current video game lawsuit with Nintendo where they're 92 00:08:08,914 --> 00:08:14,758 doing a pattern infringement on a company called... Coming with a copy, they created a game called 93 00:08:14,818 --> 00:08:19,061 Power World, which was very, very similar to how Pokemon worked, but their pattern infringement 94 00:08:19,081 --> 00:08:23,419 was... how they threw the Poke balls to capture these creatures. And it's kind of that patterned 95 00:08:23,479 --> 00:08:29,162 infringement where it's over a certain percentage that they're claiming is very similar to their 96 00:08:29,202 --> 00:08:33,784 game. And kind of the point I was getting at is there's so many games in the slot sector, 97 00:08:33,824 --> 00:08:42,548 which you can't get under that 30%, I don't think. If it was a 30% margin, because everyone's 98 00:08:42,568 --> 00:08:47,215 trying to create an Aztec game. Everyone's trying to create. some type of genre, if it's a fishing 99 00:08:47,235 --> 00:08:51,178 game, if it's a fruits game, and then when you look at mechanics themselves, there's very 100 00:08:51,278 --> 00:08:55,561 little similarity within mechanics. Like there's tweaks to make them different. You had the 101 00:08:55,601 --> 00:09:02,106 big mega ways one, which broke the boundaries, but then what you've got cluster pops, pop 102 00:09:02,126 --> 00:09:07,791 wins as well from Avatar UX, it's very similar. You have tumbling mechanics, which are just 103 00:09:07,891 --> 00:09:13,715 avalanche mechanics. I mean, they're so different. Well, and this was kind of addressed in the 104 00:09:13,755 --> 00:09:20,517 lawsuit to where Light and Wonder was saying, you know, it's not a trade secret if you can 105 00:09:20,597 --> 00:09:25,680 reverse engineer something. So if you can watch a game and be like, oh, you know, these things 106 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,442 fall and you figure out a way to make them fall, you can't call that a trade secret. But what 107 00:09:30,562 --> 00:09:37,024 aristocrat was saying was the specific payout frequency and that sort of thing, you can't 108 00:09:37,165 --> 00:09:41,999 reverse engineer that. And so it does. I mean, Light and Water was trying to argue this stuff 109 00:09:42,099 --> 00:09:46,783 wasn't trade secrets to begin with. And really this one's a bit different from the Evolution 110 00:09:46,903 --> 00:09:52,888 one in that they're kind of claiming malfeasance that they hired this person to create this 111 00:09:52,928 --> 00:09:58,212 game for them versus, you know, the Evolution one seems more like a copycat lawsuit. Yeah. 112 00:09:59,413 --> 00:10:05,598 I think that whole person being involved in the whole story kind of leans towards aristocrat 113 00:10:05,618 --> 00:10:11,594 in some way, which interesting to see what'll happen there. Again, I think when you say you 114 00:10:11,634 --> 00:10:15,877 can't reverse engineer kind of like payments side of things, I'm like, is that not what 115 00:10:16,057 --> 00:10:21,661 RTP and volatility is in general anyway? I mean, you can, is it public knowledge that the RTP 116 00:10:21,681 --> 00:10:30,527 of a slot is 83%? Sure. How a machine specifically, how often it hits, you know, one bonus or the 117 00:10:30,567 --> 00:10:37,386 other to get to 83% is the part that can't be. like just watching the game, you can't necessarily 118 00:10:37,426 --> 00:10:41,407 reverse engineer. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I still think that kind of for me, 119 00:10:41,427 --> 00:10:46,569 that still ties into kind of the volatility level of an actual slot itself, because the 120 00:10:46,589 --> 00:10:51,410 higher volatility slots, the less frequent you're going to get an actual hit, lower volatility 121 00:10:51,430 --> 00:10:55,972 you do. But I kind of get the point. You can't reverse engineer it, but they're the whole 122 00:10:56,012 --> 00:11:00,093 points of volatility and RTP linking them together to kind of create the outcome of you're going 123 00:11:00,113 --> 00:11:03,927 to get paid more, you're going to get paid less, but bigger wins. You might understand the brief 124 00:11:03,967 --> 00:11:08,511 more than I did. Like the legal part was what I kind of followed. It's, you know, the things 125 00:11:08,551 --> 00:11:14,597 about like hit frequency and stuff like that, that's in there. Um, that's a little more dense 126 00:11:14,637 --> 00:11:19,521 for my knowledge. If it wasn't the Lisbon event and my morning wasn't filled so much with like, 127 00:11:19,722 --> 00:11:23,465 uh, video interviews, I really wish I could just sit down and look at that brief. And it's 128 00:11:23,485 --> 00:11:27,429 something I'm going to do cause I think we should probably touch on it. I get in more detail 129 00:11:27,849 --> 00:11:32,015 once as I mean, these are going to be a big deal once they come to fruition. You know, 130 00:11:32,035 --> 00:11:37,917 to give people kind of a timetable on this, by the way, these suits take months. And really, 131 00:11:38,258 --> 00:11:43,400 a lot of what has been procedurally happening since it was filed in March was there's a motion 132 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:49,162 to dismiss and then light and wonder lost that essentially there was some technicality things 133 00:11:49,202 --> 00:11:54,684 that by and large aristocrat was granted the right to move forward. Now by and large aristocrat 134 00:11:54,724 --> 00:11:59,630 has won its challenge that like you can't do this while we figure Next is the process that's 135 00:11:59,670 --> 00:12:04,933 called discovery, where each group has to kind of provide all of the evidence that they would 136 00:12:04,973 --> 00:12:09,996 potentially use in the case. So that takes an incredibly long time. And because it's highly 137 00:12:10,056 --> 00:12:16,519 sensitive material, there's a whole other level of bureaucracy to this where, um, there's a 138 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:21,522 lot of motions to seal and to keep confidential and that sort of thing. So I think we're a 139 00:12:21,662 --> 00:12:26,985 very long way from a conclusion, which means for light and wonder if they lose the appeal 140 00:12:27,025 --> 00:12:33,498 on the injunction, a very popular game is going to be off the books for them for potentially 141 00:12:33,518 --> 00:12:36,721 a long period of time. Mason- Yeah, interesting developments. I think for me, this is going 142 00:12:36,741 --> 00:12:40,464 to be interesting once it comes to a conclusion, if it goes into aristocrats way, I think it 143 00:12:40,504 --> 00:12:45,088 sets a precedent then. And like I started with the show saying, from my point of view, there's 144 00:12:45,108 --> 00:12:49,192 so many potential copyright infringements within slots. I'm curious if this is going to open 145 00:12:49,212 --> 00:12:55,457 a gateway for a lot of other companies. We definitely will see and we'll be keeping an eye on it. 146 00:12:55,650 --> 00:12:59,973 definitely in America's casino beats as a version of this as well. Yeah. Guy gaming daily. I 147 00:12:59,993 --> 00:13:02,976 will be keeping an eye on this for our gaming daily because this is my bread and butter. 148 00:13:02,996 --> 00:13:07,339 I love it. Um, but we're going to take a quick break and then when we come back, Callum Williams 149 00:13:07,359 --> 00:13:11,062 is going to step forward more. I'm going to talk a bit about the payments. So that's happening 150 00:13:11,082 --> 00:13:16,627 today. Um, yeah, today is today. Yeah. Today at the Lisbon event. So stay tuned. Welcome 151 00:13:16,647 --> 00:13:20,750 back. Like I mentioned before the break, we're going to be talking payments summit. And this 152 00:13:20,770 --> 00:13:24,313 is an interesting one, Callum, because we've never actually done a payment summits before. 153 00:13:24,746 --> 00:13:30,090 the any events I don't think have we? Yeah, we've had payments. We've had payments tracks. 154 00:13:30,110 --> 00:13:34,333 Tracks, yeah. We've had payment tracks and payments panels and stuff like that, but never really 155 00:13:34,353 --> 00:13:41,479 a dedicated payments summit, which obviously is named after payment expert our site, which 156 00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:45,803 is just a kind of almost a testament to the growth of the site and how well it's performed 157 00:13:45,823 --> 00:13:49,106 over the past couple of years. So yeah, it's really pleasing to see that type of branding 158 00:13:49,126 --> 00:13:53,109 there as well. Yeah. I mean, payments has just been something that's been growing and growing 159 00:13:53,129 --> 00:13:58,399 since I joined. certainly in the casino sector as well, like it's huge and you then you involve 160 00:13:58,419 --> 00:14:02,621 crypto into the scene, which I'm not going to pretend I'm going to be a crypto expert here. 161 00:14:02,701 --> 00:14:08,103 I may have dabbled, but like nothing on you Callum, but just give us an idea of some of 162 00:14:08,123 --> 00:14:11,304 the interesting conversations that have been happening today anyway, because I know you've 163 00:14:11,324 --> 00:14:15,066 been on the panel session, but also give us an idea of a general trend that's happening 164 00:14:15,526 --> 00:14:22,109 within the payment sector. Yeah. Well, I sat in the first opening Pimp Experts Summit panel 165 00:14:22,189 --> 00:14:27,808 regarding mature markets It was funny because some of the panellists didn't really have an 166 00:14:27,868 --> 00:14:32,152 answer to the mature markets. They kind of almost said there are no mature markets when it pertains 167 00:14:32,632 --> 00:14:36,776 to regulatory requirements involving both the gambling and the payment industries, which 168 00:14:36,836 --> 00:14:42,761 is in fact all fair enough. There really isn't because regulations are just so ever evolving. 169 00:14:42,801 --> 00:14:46,244 Whether you want to talk about the gambling white paper in the UK in terms of affordability 170 00:14:46,264 --> 00:14:50,427 checks and then payments. There's the payment service director three that's about to come 171 00:14:50,447 --> 00:14:55,470 into Europe obviously following the back of PSD2 which introduced open banking regulations 172 00:14:55,530 --> 00:15:00,673 and regulations to instant payments. And so, yeah, that was a really good conversation, 173 00:15:00,773 --> 00:15:05,515 which was moderated by Andrew McGeech and I've seen Neosurf, I'm sure you'll... I game in 174 00:15:05,535 --> 00:15:09,757 daily. We're a big fan of Neosurf and Andrea. Yeah. Shout out to Andrea. But no, yeah, there's 175 00:15:09,837 --> 00:15:14,899 also representatives from Leo Vegas. Also, there was some representatives from Trustly as well. 176 00:15:15,239 --> 00:15:20,061 Just kind of giving the whole operator supplier dynamic in terms of how an operator and supplier 177 00:15:20,081 --> 00:15:24,863 can help one another in terms of... not only adapting to these mature markets, but also 178 00:15:24,903 --> 00:15:29,305 emerging markets as well. Like Brazil, for instance, that's a market that's about to explode in 179 00:15:29,325 --> 00:15:33,428 the sports betting aspect. So yeah, they're really trying to figure out that fine balance 180 00:15:33,468 --> 00:15:40,171 between what can the gambling operators help for payment operators to enter these markets, 181 00:15:40,211 --> 00:15:45,914 but then how can they remain compliant as well with the regulators? Yeah. I've had a few conversations 182 00:15:45,934 --> 00:15:54,299 already today when I was doing interviews and the our interviews is, it baffles me because 183 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,623 I don't know, I felt like I was in the belief that crypto was kind of on the decline a bit. 184 00:16:00,264 --> 00:16:03,226 I don't know if it's getting a second wave and what's it called, the bull run or something 185 00:16:03,246 --> 00:16:07,889 like that? Mason- Well yeah, the bear market is when it's down, it's declining and the bull 186 00:16:07,929 --> 00:16:12,132 market is when it's on the up. I mean yeah, it was the fair to say the crypto market was 187 00:16:12,812 --> 00:16:19,317 almost seemingly dead during 2022 and 2023 because of the high profile collapses of FTX and Terraluna, 188 00:16:19,337 --> 00:16:24,468 that just kind of... implemented the market, it's lost all investor confidence. But I think 189 00:16:24,548 --> 00:16:28,531 what you may be hearing from some of these gambling operators now is the interesting crypto as 190 00:16:28,551 --> 00:16:33,934 a payment method, because it just provides so many beneficiaries when it pertains to instant 191 00:16:34,535 --> 00:16:40,319 payment, like it happens in mere seconds. It's just something that's not... There's instant 192 00:16:40,359 --> 00:16:46,063 payments within Europe and within SEPA and stuff like that, but crypto is a peer-to-peer transaction 193 00:16:46,123 --> 00:16:50,325 with no intermediaries involved. That is just a quick transaction that will easily just grant 194 00:16:50,862 --> 00:16:54,503 player, for instance, instant gratification, whether it's deposits or whether it's payout 195 00:16:54,563 --> 00:17:00,644 as well. So crypto was a payment method initially. That was what crypto was meant to be when Bitcoin 196 00:17:00,664 --> 00:17:05,005 came about in 2008. It was meant to be this pure peer-to-peer transaction. Now it's just 197 00:17:05,065 --> 00:17:11,887 being used for investor and stuff like that. I'm going to ask the noob question. So if you're 198 00:17:11,987 --> 00:17:18,749 a payments processor, how do you make money on a peer-to-peer crypto exchange if the idea 199 00:17:18,909 --> 00:17:23,677 is... that there's not an intermediary. Mason. That would be, that is a good question to be 200 00:17:23,697 --> 00:17:29,322 fair, Jess. I mean, it's something that a gambling operator may have to partner with a crypto 201 00:17:29,682 --> 00:17:35,187 payment merchant or a crypto payment provider and there may be some beneficiary there. I 202 00:17:35,207 --> 00:17:40,172 think that's a good question because there hasn't really been a good example of that, to be honest. 203 00:17:41,333 --> 00:17:46,637 But it is something that when crypto was first introduced, it was meant to be this peer-to-peer. 204 00:17:47,298 --> 00:17:52,142 transaction, like no intermediaries, no banks involved. So it's interesting to see that some 205 00:17:52,162 --> 00:17:56,886 of these payment service providers, I mean, I know Revolut of the UK, Fintech Revolut, 206 00:17:57,446 --> 00:18:02,250 they're heavily invested into crypto in terms of trying to make it as a crypto payment method. 207 00:18:02,270 --> 00:18:06,574 And it just because of the benefits it provides the users. And at the end of the day, they 208 00:18:06,634 --> 00:18:11,178 want the users to be happy. They want to come back and use their type of services. So I've 209 00:18:11,198 --> 00:18:15,766 seen, I had a conversation with a company, I'm not going to say who they are because You're 210 00:18:15,786 --> 00:18:21,028 just all sorts of mystery and intrigue today. I'm not name dropping anyone, but yeah, I learned 211 00:18:21,128 --> 00:18:24,949 a few things. Um, but we had a conversation because of the new European regulations coming 212 00:18:24,969 --> 00:18:29,591 through, they've had to change their whole business model of how they adapt. So instead of being 213 00:18:29,631 --> 00:18:36,914 that kind of middle person for a transaction between operators and kind of companies, they're 214 00:18:36,974 --> 00:18:43,137 now becoming more crypto consultants and kind of helping operators around the new regulations. 215 00:18:43,497 --> 00:18:51,036 Would that be in Mika? Is that? That's the European framework that's coming in December. It's basically 216 00:18:52,196 --> 00:18:58,359 the first type of comprehensive crypto regulatory framework where it requires listings and it 217 00:18:58,419 --> 00:19:02,581 requires you need licenses now to operate in some of these markets. I do believe there was 218 00:19:02,881 --> 00:19:09,144 one, it was Tether, which is the largest stablecoin issue in the world. They're European stablecoin, 219 00:19:09,164 --> 00:19:14,726 which is picked to the European fiat currency, the Euro. I'm going to nod and say yeah, like 220 00:19:14,746 --> 00:19:19,089 I know what you're talking about right now. It's basically, it's a crypto, a stablecoin 221 00:19:19,109 --> 00:19:24,033 is basically a crypto currency that's tethered to a real life currency like the Euro, so it 222 00:19:24,133 --> 00:19:27,996 maintains its stability. Okay, yeah. They're being more pushed as a payment method for instance, 223 00:19:28,016 --> 00:19:33,520 because there's no volatility involved. That's for the altcoins kind of thing. So like the 224 00:19:33,540 --> 00:19:37,102 doges, the... No, they're just meme coins, they're just... They're quite volatile though, they're 225 00:19:37,122 --> 00:19:41,245 the altcoins. Oh yeah, they're extremely volatile. Is that the official term, meme coin? The glorified. 226 00:19:41,506 --> 00:19:48,569 get rich quick schemes really. But yeah, Mika is very, very important to how crypto in the 227 00:19:48,609 --> 00:19:52,510 future, in Europe especially, is going to be viewed as a type of payment product because 228 00:19:52,711 --> 00:19:57,873 they have to be regulated now, these tokens. Well, and I can see the ancillary effects too, 229 00:19:57,893 --> 00:20:04,276 that if it is successful then operators in other markets like the US that are very resistant 230 00:20:04,316 --> 00:20:08,658 to crypto will be like, okay, well here's one way that you could do it. And I know... For 231 00:20:08,698 --> 00:20:16,720 me at least, when I speak with smaller operators, the number one thing they say is the biggest 232 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,401 reason we can't be profitable is because our payment processing charges are just through 233 00:20:21,421 --> 00:20:26,783 the roof. Yeah. What is it in the US? Is it different to the European ones, isn't it? PayPal 234 00:20:26,823 --> 00:20:32,064 is a big one. Is it the interchange fees with MasterCard and Visa? Yeah, and then credit 235 00:20:32,084 --> 00:20:36,625 card fees and that sort of thing. But you get a payment processing company to handle all 236 00:20:36,645 --> 00:20:42,466 those. PayPal gets very expensive and it's one of those like, you can get reduced rates if 237 00:20:42,486 --> 00:20:48,550 you're going in bulk, but small operators that are in two states, three states is just very 238 00:20:48,610 --> 00:20:57,597 difficult. So, the opportunity to get a peer to peer fee, fun method without that kind of 239 00:20:57,617 --> 00:21:02,988 fee. It's just very difficult for small operators. I mean, licensing and all the other things 240 00:21:03,048 --> 00:21:06,451 on top of payments fees, but they say payments fees are the worst. Mason. We recently did 241 00:21:07,031 --> 00:21:12,315 a report from Capgemini as well, telling of their payments review of 2025, and they highlighted 242 00:21:12,356 --> 00:21:19,401 account-to-account payments, A2A payments, as this surging favourable payment method among 243 00:21:19,541 --> 00:21:26,226 users, which completely takes out those interchange fees from Visa and Mastercard. pretty much 244 00:21:26,346 --> 00:21:31,288 established that this could represent a billions upon billions and billions upon billions of 245 00:21:31,328 --> 00:21:34,729 losses in interchange fees for the lights of visa and mastercard. So there's something to 246 00:21:34,769 --> 00:21:39,831 watch out if, um, if operators are starting to get a bit, a bit, um, a bit worried about 247 00:21:39,871 --> 00:21:43,073 some of these attached fees. I'll leave the link to that article in the description for 248 00:21:43,093 --> 00:21:47,274 this podcast via, um, we are going to round up though and finish off. But before we do, 249 00:21:47,294 --> 00:21:51,736 Callum, give us a rundown of what listeners who are attending the event can expect from 250 00:21:51,756 --> 00:21:56,443 the payment expert summit. Yeah, we, uh, will the team, me, Ted, I'm Clay and Kieran O'Connor. 251 00:21:56,463 --> 00:22:00,486 We're pretty much covering most of the panels here at the SPC Summit, Payment Expert Summit. 252 00:22:01,347 --> 00:22:04,870 Yeah, there's, and then maybe moving away from Payment Expert as well, we're also covering 253 00:22:04,890 --> 00:22:09,094 some of this stuff on the Superstage, you know. Luis Figo and the new UFC Bantamweight Champion 254 00:22:09,114 --> 00:22:14,559 Mirab. I can't remember his last name. Oh, I was like, oh, are you one of the MMA people 255 00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:19,803 in the team too? I do like me UFC, but I think Joe's, I think Joe's are. Yeah, I'm more of 256 00:22:19,823 --> 00:22:25,948 a boxing man then. Yeah, true. Yeah. And then just, yeah, keeping, uh, keep an eye out for, 257 00:22:26,088 --> 00:22:29,130 on a payment expert for some of the, uh, the good panels and good interviews you might have 258 00:22:29,170 --> 00:22:33,593 on the way. I brought my Tony Hawk on the ground too. So hopefully Tony Hawk can sign that for 259 00:22:33,613 --> 00:22:38,016 me. You want to try and get an autograph? Yeah. And then sell it anyway. Big fan of Tony Hawk. 260 00:22:38,036 --> 00:22:42,219 Big fan of him when I was younger. Um, but we're going to round up today. So Callum, Jess, thank 261 00:22:42,259 --> 00:22:47,783 you for joining us today and have a good rest of your week in Lisbon and to listen out there, 262 00:22:47,863 --> 00:22:52,717 tuning to, and to the listeners out there tuning tomorrow where I'll be back. on the conference 263 00:22:52,737 --> 00:22:55,769 room floor at SBC Summit. Until then, thank you.