{ "version": "1.0.0", "segments": [ { "speaker": "Narrator", "startTime": "3.36", "endTime": "14.554999", "body": "This is the Transform Your Teaching Podcast. The Transform Your Teaching Podcast is a service of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio." }, { "speaker": "Ryan", "startTime": "15.755", "endTime": "30.05", "body": "Hello, and welcome to this episode of Transform Your Teaching. In today's episode, Dr. Rob McDole and Dr. Jared Pyles continue our series called Stirring Motivation by talking about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation. Thanks for joining us." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "30.130001", "endTime": "55.77", "body": "Well, Rob, we are continuing our series on motivation, and in this episode, we are parking on intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. It's a pretty central focus of motivation theories and and such. And, yeah, time for us to dive deep into this massive topic." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "55.85", "endTime": "58.25", "body": "Yeah. It it sounds like you feel a little overwhelmed." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "58.81", "endTime": "103.725", "body": "No motivation. I I'll be honest with you, and this could be perfect for extrinsic intrinsic, but I feel like I can't get my head around this concept. So I I don't have any kind of intrinsic motivation to do this because I feel like it's too daunting of a task for me. And I think like I would approach it differently if I had something that could hook me in, and I have yet to find something that will do that for me. So maybe that's like something I can explore because as we'll discuss in this episode, there's really the intrinsic motivation that helps with, because right now, extrinsically, I'm just thinking, let's get this over with." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "104.045", "endTime": "107.244995", "body": "The the goal is the end and have been done with it." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "107.805", "endTime": "108.765", "body": "Checking the box." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "108.765", "endTime": "109.485", "body": "Checking the box." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "109.485", "endTime": "120.98", "body": "Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good example of extrinsic motivation, box checking. Yeah. A good way maybe to start this off in terms of helping our listeners relate to this Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "120.98", "endTime": "132.395", "body": "Especially those that teach. Have you ever had someone come in and say, you know that thing you covered or the reading that you assigned? Yeah. Is that gonna be on the test? Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "132.395", "endTime": "145.43", "body": "You know, you start looking at that. You get into this idea of this transaction. You know, they just wanna know what do I have to do in order to check this box?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "145.43", "endTime": "146.63", "body": "Right. Right." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "146.63", "endTime": "151.35", "body": "Am I gonna get that A? Are they motivated by that external grade?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "151.43", "endTime": "209.11", "body": "It's funny because I have a story that's very relatable to that. When I was student teaching, you know, I I came from a school that was definitely more on the constructivist side and valued the experience more than necessarily the grade, so the intrinsic over the extrinsic. And so one of my classes that I student taught was an honors English freshman class. And their final project was a multi genre project where it was like, you can pick from this whole list of like 25 genres, pick five of them and develop a small piece, five different small pieces for To Kill a Mockingbird. And so for the most part, everyone kind of understood everything else, but I had one girl in the honors class who was like, well, how do I what is it that you want?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "209.67", "endTime": "213.82999", "body": "Like, no. No. I I gave you the rubric. Just follow the rubric. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "213.82999", "endTime": "221.265", "body": "But the rubric is, like, kind of open ended because you're you're giving me choice in this? And I was like, yes. You have well, I don't want choice. I want you to tell me" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "221.425", "endTime": "222.225", "body": "Tell me what to do." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "222.30501", "endTime": "230.705", "body": "Tell me what it is that you want me to do. And I was like, wow. This is like textbook. Well, exactly what you just said, like, that will this be on the test" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "230.865", "endTime": "231.105", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "231.185", "endTime": "231.745", "body": "Kind of a thing." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "232.45", "endTime": "250.875", "body": "Well, I've had that happen to me as well. Like, I remember, especially when you try to create learning experiences that students actually drive. In other words, it's driven from their own motivation. Mhmm. And I had one particular student." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "250.875", "endTime": "254.795", "body": "I was doing a systems analysis class. Oh. It's a tough class." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "254.795", "endTime": "257.355", "body": "And, traditionally, I'm not motivated to take that class." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "257.355", "endTime": "261.755", "body": "It was one of those things that they had to take in order to to graduate with a particular degree." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "261.755", "endTime": "261.995", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "262.64", "endTime": "285.325", "body": "And so I had one student who was on probation as a senior taking that class. And because of the way I formulated and said, basically, you're in the driver's seat. Here's the content that you have to own. I showed them. I said, but you really are driving your learning, not me." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "286.125", "endTime": "302.6", "body": "He totally ate that up. Totally I mean, the work that he did, everything, it just had changed. Like, you could tell something had flipped on for him. Yeah. But then I had the student who was had the highest grade point average of her class." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "302.75998", "endTime": "303.16", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "303.16", "endTime": "313.40503", "body": "So she had the the GPA. Right? She came into my office crying. She said, just tell me what I have to know to pass the test. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "313.48502", "endTime": "328.65997", "body": "I was like, wow. What a difference. And that's when it really, like, keyed to me the difference that people come to learning experiences. And this is the thing we as teachers can't control. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "328.65997", "endTime": "343.805", "body": "We can influence it, but we can't control it. And it's interesting. In a previous interview with Betsy Linnell, you and I had that conversation. One of the key things she said in that was you have to you have to explain to them why. Right." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "343.805", "endTime": "345.645", "body": "You know, you have to explain to them why." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "345.645", "endTime": "345.885", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "346.24", "endTime": "359.43997", "body": "And so that why I think goes to not only intrinsic but extrinsic motivation. I think it'd probably be helpful if we define those. You wanna you wanna define those?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "359.43997", "endTime": "394.55502", "body": "Yeah. So extrinsic is doing it for a reward, like a grade or degree or to avoid punishment, and then intrinsic would be doing it because the activity itself is rewarding and satisfying. The thing we run into in higher ed, and I think also in K-twelve, although it may look a little bit differently, is that at least in higher ed specifically, everything is built on extrinsic systems. So grades, degrees, like you were talking about, GPA. Yet we want our students to enjoy the content as much as we enjoy the content." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "394.55502", "endTime": "408.84", "body": "We want them to enjoy learning. But when they see it as just a boxed check or a class to take to finish, there's like a bit of attention there, and so we need to show them the value of it. But the question is, how do we do that?" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "409.31998", "endTime": "433.88998", "body": "Well, and I think that's the key aspect of teaching that anyone who teaches, whether it be k through 12 and I think it definitely becomes more so as you go up the grade levels. Right? Yeah. Because the things that motivated me as a kindergartner aren't the things that motivate me now as an adult." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "433.88998", "endTime": "435.09", "body": "Well, maybe." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "435.41", "endTime": "441.41", "body": "Well, I don't get smiley smiley stamps on my hand for doing really well at nap time." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "441.41", "endTime": "443.25", "body": "I'd kill for a smiley stamp for" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "443.33", "endTime": "444.13", "body": "For nap time?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "444.13", "endTime": "445.01", "body": "Yeah. It'd be great." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "445.535", "endTime": "452.895", "body": "But at the end of the day, it can't be just like doing this podcast. Why do we do this podcast? So we can just check a box?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "453.055", "endTime": "454.255", "body": "No. No. We don't." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "454.255", "endTime": "465.47", "body": "We do it because we genuinely wanna help others. We wanna explore topics ourselves, and in in so doing, share that with others Yeah. And get feedback as well because we believe it makes a difference." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "465.47", "endTime": "467.39", "body": "Sure. We're curating a resource." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "467.39", "endTime": "482.76498", "body": "Yeah. Yeah. And so that's kind of like intrinsic motivation to a degree. Sure. But what's interesting is if you go with that idea of intrinsic, it really has to do with the activity itself being rewarding." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "483.37", "endTime": "483.77", "body": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "483.77", "endTime": "490.09", "body": "And sometimes doing thing like a podcast or maybe a particular lesson that you have" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "490.56998", "endTime": "490.97", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "491.05", "endTime": "492.49", "body": "You're just like, ugh." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "492.65", "endTime": "493.29", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "493.44998", "endTime": "500.405", "body": "Right? You yourself teaching it, you don't enjoy it. Exactly. Oh, yeah. But here you are having to teach it to students." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "500.485", "endTime": "506.485", "body": "Sure. Do you have an example? Oh. Because it seemed like something just came to mind as soon as I said it." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "506.485", "endTime": "562.375", "body": "When I taught sophomore English, it was the whole research writing research process. Not because like, didn't find it, like I found it rewarding because to me it was like a puzzle, like helping the student articulate the quote or the paraphrase the best way and then be able to sign it correctly and then be able to use that in the works So I enjoyed that aspect of it, but it was just the experiences that I had had previously in teaching it had made my motivation drop tremendously because I kept seeing them get it wrong, or I kept seeing them not care about the value of it. And for the life of me, I couldn't show them the value of it, besides because to me it was like, well, I think this is stupid too. Like, you know, like, I understand the value of it, but, like, why do I have to use MLA versus APA? Why does it matter, that stuff?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "562.375", "endTime": "583.83496", "body": "You know? And then it came into my my dissertation that all surfaced again. But luckily, I found something called EndNote that could do for me. And I just assumed everything was fine. But I think that was one of the things that was really hard for me as an educator, is to be motivated to teach that type of thing, because it was just like, they don't care, you know?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "583.83496", "endTime": "607.11", "body": "And I couldn't find the, I couldn't find a way of getting that into their heads how important it was. I couldn't have them see the value. I couldn't help them see the value of it. I do have a, like a positive example. I found that, so intrinsic, we always think about making the activity enjoyable and, or rewarding in some aspect." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "607.35", "endTime": "636.93", "body": "So sometimes, you I talked about student choice, student voice earlier. That's a popular, especially in language arts. That's a big, big thing in K-twelve. Or giving them some sort of freedom to explore their own interests, and that's supposed to intrinsically motivate them. I taught alternative school when I first started teaching in a district where it was where students who needed to make up the credit because they'd failed the first time." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "636.93", "endTime": "651.5", "body": "It was a really intensive six week. And so if you think about intrinsic versus extrinsic, they were probably motivated by the grade, and the instructor was motivated by the grade. So they came into the class with no motivation whatsoever." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "651.5", "endTime": "652.77997", "body": "Other teaching to the test." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "652.77997", "endTime": "677.555", "body": "Other than teaching to And these kids clearly didn't fit into that mold that they were looking for, to teach the test and to extrinsically motivate them. So all I did was just find a book that I really, really liked to read, and we read it together. And just that desire for them to want to read more was enough for me to say, these kids are motivated to do that because then they were excelling, I could throw anything at them. Let's do some grammar. Okay." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "677.555", "endTime": "689.13", "body": "Great. Because we were going to go back to the book that we were reading together. And, I mean, that so it doesn't have to be necessarily, well, what do you like to do? Well, then write a research paper about that. You like f one?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "689.13", "endTime": "697.35504", "body": "Write a paper about f one. Mhmm. Yeah. But because sometimes that can ruin your experience as well. You'll you'll start hating the thing that you loved because you're making me do it this way." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "697.35504", "endTime": "700.23505", "body": "I realize it's not as everything I thought it was." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "700.23505", "endTime": "715.27", "body": "Yeah. I mean, like, now every time I think of f one, I'll think about the research paper you made me write and the bad grade you gave me on it. So I I think there's different ways of exploring it besides just like hobbies and interests, which I think is the default that I go to anyway for intrinsic motivation." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "716.23004", "endTime": "725.78503", "body": "Yeah. The extrinsic motivation oftentimes, for those out there who've heard this, you know, and we've been giving examples of this to some degree" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "726.025", "endTime": "726.425", "body": "Yep." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "726.505", "endTime": "729.065", "body": "Of carrot and sticks. Mhmm. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "729.145", "endTime": "729.545", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "729.545", "endTime": "744.66003", "body": "And, obviously, I think, like, BF Skinner was big into motivation. Yes. Carrot and sticks. He's like, what's going inside the mind of the learner is a black box. Pay no attention to it." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "744.9", "endTime": "783.645", "body": "Just focus on behavioral modification. And behavioral modification can be done through carrots and sticks. Right. And then you can, in some ways, like, through that behavioral modification, if it's done over a long period of time, becomes habit because we're our minds are lend themselves to doing things over again. And habit, things that we do once or twice, if we just keep going on those things and we build those habits, right, can then inform have have a way of informing us, and our motivation." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "784.045", "endTime": "805.255", "body": "So there's a lot to be looked at there in terms of motivation. I'm not gonna dig into that today other than to say there are a lot of great books out there on habit forming and what that does. Yeah. You've ever heard the the the phrase fake it till you make it? There's a certain aspect to which that is true." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "805.255", "endTime": "823.58", "body": "There's like Mhmm. Where maybe you don't feel that way or maybe you don't actually have all of the characteristics that, say, make you the EDD or the PhD. Yeah. Maybe have that idea of, like, impostor syndrome. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "823.58", "endTime": "832.7", "body": "Where you you feel like an impostor. Yeah. But the more you continue on in the literature, the more you continue on, you come to a point where you realize, I do understand this." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "832.86", "endTime": "833.26", "body": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "833.845", "endTime": "837.285", "body": "And I I can hold my own" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "837.525", "endTime": "838.085", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "838.40497", "endTime": "846.645", "body": "In a conversation. Yeah. And also in the literature, I can have conversations with others who are in this field." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "846.645", "endTime": "852.4", "body": "Yeah. That was a turning point for me. Yeah. Was realizing, oh, I do know what I'm talking about in this specific area." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "852.4", "endTime": "863.68", "body": "Yeah. Yeah. So that's very intrinsic. So then you you move. You move from, you know, I'm going after a and I think that's, like, one of the big highlights of education in general." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "864.565", "endTime": "884.57996", "body": "If you've ever done anything that's, like, really hard where you knew that you couldn't do it on your own Yep. You know, and there are different things like that out in the world. But you realize at the end of it that it wasn't about finishing. It was the change that took place in you through the process. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "884.74", "endTime": "893.03503", "body": "And that's what you then start intrinsically valuing. You value that. You value what happened. You look back and" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "893.03503", "endTime": "895.515", "body": "you go, oh, yeah. It's absolutely true." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "895.755", "endTime": "897.435", "body": "I'm not the same person I used to be." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "897.435", "endTime": "903.675", "body": "Yeah. It's absolutely true. I think what you're what you're talking about there is that it's not just a black and white" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "904.87", "endTime": "906.95", "body": "intrinsic great, extrinsic bad." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "906.95", "endTime": "919.11", "body": "Yeah. There's not really necessarily that aspect because life isn't that way. It's mostly somewhere in the middle. Here's a good example. I don't brush my teeth because it's fun, intrinsic." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "920.02496", "endTime": "942.71", "body": "But I don't do it just because my dentist will yell at me extrinsic. I do it because I value health. And I, although I think there's more extrinsic there, because once you go into a dentist appointment and have your gums thoroughly cleaned, you're like, oh, I really should value my dental health more. Maybe I should floss because that, that happened to me recently. Oh man, it was brutal." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "942.95", "endTime": "956.195", "body": "But I think that it's somewhere in the, in the middle with that. Yeah. Imagine the dentist going, I've never seen that before. I think that would be, you know, oh, that's is that a tooth? I hope so." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "956.27496", "endTime": "1002.005", "body": "Yeah. You know? So so it does sit in in the middle, but I think what's and this goes back to what Betsy was talking about. I think the important thing is to look at it from a future perspective and explain the value of what the assignment is to the students before you get to that point. Like instead of it being just about the grade, which some of our students are motivated to do, and it may not completely change their way of thinking about your class, but if you explain to them the value of what it is that they're doing just for a little bit, how can make an impact on their future, maybe that will kind of spur that motivation a bit more and want them to interact with it and do a better job at it instead of just seeing it as a checkbox kind of a thing." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1002.005", "endTime": "1016.165", "body": "Yeah. I think I think you have to use both. Oh, yeah. I think you're always trying to move from the extrinsic to the intrinsic because ultimately, I think that's parallels growing up, becoming an adult. Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1016.54004", "endTime": "1029.26", "body": "Right? You know, when we were children, somebody else fed us. Yep. Now that we're adults, we feed ourselves until we get to the point where we have to ask somebody else feed us." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1029.26", "endTime": "1037.1249", "body": "Sorry. The decline as I Decline. My birthday is tomorrow, so I'm thinking about how close that's becoming to me is having to have someone else feed me." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1037.205", "endTime": "1041.445", "body": "Yeah. So I think I think the thing to, like, kinda bring this all together" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1041.6849", "endTime": "1044.085", "body": "Yes. You know? Please bring it together." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1044.085", "endTime": "1067.9349", "body": "Sorry. Is that we wanna move from the, I'm doing this for a grade to, I'm doing this because I value becoming x, y, or z in this particular area. You know, if it's a doctor, I value being someone who can rightly and accurately diagnose a patient because their lives matter." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1068.415", "endTime": "1068.815", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1068.815", "endTime": "1104.87", "body": "And for us as believers, we have a framework. We have a philosophy. We have a belief system that lends itself to providing extremely wonderful and eternal reasons as to why we should learn certain things. Yep. Not everything, but most certainly, I would say much of what we study here at Cedarville, the different disciplines that we have, engineering, nursing, at, you know, allied health, the athletic trainers." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1105.1901", "endTime": "1112.47", "body": "I think you could go around business, the the humanities. Mhmm. You know, English as as you've stated." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1112.63", "endTime": "1113.03", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1113.03", "endTime": "1143.395", "body": "There's so many that that we have here, and each one of them, I know there are faculty and students here who could explain to you why it's important that they do what they do or they study what they study Mhmm. Because they believe it has an eternal impact Right. In some form or another. So, you know, for us, first Corinthians ten thirty one, whatever you do, do all to the glory of" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1143.395", "endTime": "1144.595", "body": "God. Right." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1144.595", "endTime": "1149.235", "body": "And it's always aimed at loving others or what's best for others" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1149.475", "endTime": "1149.795", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1149.875", "endTime": "1173.735", "body": "Before ourselves. So that's the ethos. That's the the framework. That's the worldview that we come from that makes having conversations about motivation, I think, inherently easier than others. Because there's always something for us to come back." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1173.735", "endTime": "1183.015", "body": "Like Betsy said, there's always something for us to come back Right. And tie it to. Right. Or to say, you know, you've used it before. What do we reject?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1184.09", "endTime": "1184.73", "body": "What do we affirm?" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1184.89", "endTime": "1207.535", "body": "Affirm, and what do we redeem? Mhmm. So those are the things that help us, especially when it comes to Yeah. How do we help motivate students. And I think having that ultimately is you do this one, we shouldn't be having our students do something that really is a waste of time." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1207.535", "endTime": "1208.095", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1208.655", "endTime": "1209.695", "body": "I was gonna bring that up." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1209.775", "endTime": "1215.55", "body": "And then the other students shouldn't assume that what we're having them do is a waste of time." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1215.55", "endTime": "1244.4", "body": "That's a great way of putting it. Yeah. I was going to say it's like our takeaway from this is really taking five minutes to explain an assignment or a major project you have coming up in your, class, but I think there's just so they can have that future scope towards this. But I think it also is a great point for faculty to consider what it is they're having their students do. And is there eternal impact on it?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1244.4", "endTime": "1276.16", "body": "Can you justify what it is you're having them do? Or is it just busy work? You know, that term is turned around a lot, but like, is there, is this an opportunity for you to review what it is that your students are doing and say, okay, is this going to have an impact on their future self by them doing this? And if not, then maybe you want to reassess it, redefine it, change it in some way, or throw it out entirely." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1276.3201", "endTime": "1290.0349", "body": "Yeah. And we we see that here all the time. We can't tell our listeners about all the things that our faculty do here, but there's there's this constant cycle Mhmm. Of evaluating that. I've seen so many faculty here." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1290.515", "endTime": "1298.17", "body": "You know? They have lots of stories where they tell us things that I'm just like, oh, wow. That's cool. Yeah. You know?" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1298.17", "endTime": "1309.21", "body": "Oh, yeah. Or they're honest enough to say, yeah. I had them do an x, and then I realized that's really actually not helpful Mhmm. In the long run for them down the road. So we changed it." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1309.21", "endTime": "1319.135", "body": "Now they're doing y. Mhmm. And it's like, boom. Yeah. So I hope this has been helpful to our listeners." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1319.855", "endTime": "1337.87", "body": "I think the one thing that I've learned over the years is that you, yeah, you can't force people to do things, but you can show them and you can influence even with extrinsic motivation. You can, like, create barriers to help them." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1338.015", "endTime": "1338.5751", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1338.5751", "endTime": "1342.975", "body": "Go in the direction that you know is is going to assist them long." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1342.975", "endTime": "1343.6951", "body": "What's what's your" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1343.775", "endTime": "1344.095", "body": "Long term." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1344.175", "endTime": "1348.015", "body": "Your favorite adage and then what you add to it at the it's one of my favorites." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1348.495", "endTime": "1354.07", "body": "You you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Right. But you can put salt in their oats." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1354.07", "endTime": "1358.95", "body": "Yeah. I think that's apropos for this conversation." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1359.19", "endTime": "1373.0651", "body": "So you can influence. Yeah. And I think it's just taking the time to think about motivation, think about, one, understanding what is motivating your students. And, again, that goes back to what Betsy said. You know?" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1373.0651", "endTime": "1383.1499", "body": "So I encourage our listeners to go back. She had some wonderful things to say. Mhmm. Figuring out what is motivating your students, and don't ignore it. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1383.95", "endTime": "1390.59", "body": "Press into it. Press into it, embrace it, and figure out how you can help them understand and move to the next level" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1390.59", "endTime": "1390.83", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1390.83", "endTime": "1392.35", "body": "Or how you can serve them in some way." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1392.35", "endTime": "1403.275", "body": "And it may not directly impact their academics, but it could help build rapport with them as well. Like, my students this semester want me to watch Kung Fu Panda, which I've never seen before. What? I've I know. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1403.275", "endTime": "1409.3298", "body": "Everyone makes that and everyone in this room right now is staring at me like I'm an idiot. I realize I've I've" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1409.1699", "endTime": "1412.37", "body": "It's like you tell me the ball. You've never seen Nacho Libre." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1412.37", "endTime": "1432.395", "body": "Oh, I know. That to me is that's one of the greatest movies of all time. Kung Fu Panda, though, I need to watch it because they keep so now I realize that if I watch it, even if it's on two times speed, I can walk back and say, there's a bit of a some indirect influence on motivation there. Yeah. You know?" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1432.395", "endTime": "1445.09", "body": "Because I I did what they said. We had a whole discussion about bad movies. I told them about my hatred of Star Wars the other day. Oh. And I I don't know if I I may have dropped some motivation, but I'll I'll bring it back with Kung Fu Panda, I think." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1445.41", "endTime": "1491.295", "body": "Anyway, all that to say, a good way of of summing this up is you said it earlier. I think, like, the adding the rightly to this, rightly discern, rightly interpret, I think that's applicable to those that follow Christ and our listeners who do not, because if you want to do things well, I think it's important because we want to do things well, regardless of what our worldview or past experiences are. We want things to operate rightly and be able to discern rightly. We want to be able to interpret things rightly. And I think that is maybe a takeaway there for our listeners is that consider that as the future for your students." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1491.295", "endTime": "1510.2749", "body": "You want them to be able to do things and do things rightly, not necessarily for the grade, but you want them, and of course the grade is going to be a byproduct of that, doing it rightly. But we want to motivate them to approach these things with a desire to do it well. Yeah. Maybe that's something we can use." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1510.355", "endTime": "1520.915", "body": "I mean, you're exactly right. I think even nonbelievers, those who don't follow Jesus, those of our listeners who don't follow Jesus, still wanna do things well. Totally. I I think so." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1520.915", "endTime": "1522.18", "body": "Yeah. Would Because hope" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1523.06", "endTime": "1524.18", "body": "God has put eternity" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1524.18", "endTime": "1534.26", "body": "in their you know what? It's not I hope so. I know they do because I've I've worked with them, and I went through school with those that don't believe, and we have the same outcome. We want to do things well." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1535.215", "endTime": "1547.7749", "body": "Where it is going to break down is the tools that you use, the philosophical tools that you use, and if they're not aligned to reality. So that's that's where we where we differ, not because we're better" }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1547.91", "endTime": "1548.9501", "body": "No. Of course not." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1548.9501", "endTime": "1549.5901", "body": "At all." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1549.5901", "endTime": "1551.11", "body": "No. Absolutely not." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1551.11", "endTime": "1557.19", "body": "We just we just believe that the tools that are presented in scripture rightly align to reality." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1557.43", "endTime": "1558.07", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1558.0701", "endTime": "1584.0299", "body": "Because anything that's not relying to aligned to reality is false Yeah. Ultimately, and it will fail. And so that's the difference, and that sometimes can be off putting to others. Sure. And I understand that, but I think it's more loving and kind to say, would you not rather be in line with reality because you genuinely wanna do what's right?" }, { "speaker": "Rob", "startTime": "1584.03", "endTime": "1591.8251", "body": "You generally want your students to value these things that you're teaching. And I would think the answer would be yes." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1591.8251", "endTime": "1613.65", "body": "Yeah. This has been a challenging episode for me specifically, so I appreciate us walking through this together. In our next episode, I'm excited about this, we're gonna discuss self determination theory, which we've talked about comes up a ton. Right. I'm talk about motivation with Erica Patel, is professor of education and psychology at the University of Southern California." }, { "speaker": "Jared", "startTime": "1614.125", "endTime": "1619.5651", "body": "She is awesome, and I'm very excited to have this conversation with her. Coming up next." }, { "speaker": "Ryan", "startTime": "1619.5651", "endTime": "1637.57", "body": "Thanks for listening to this episode of Transform Your Teaching. If you have any questions about today's episode, feel free to send us an email at ctlpodcast@cedarville.edu. You can also connect with us on LinkedIn. And finally, don't forget to check out our blog at cedarville.edu/focusblog. Thanks for listening." } ] }