WEBVTT 00:00:00.014 --> 00:00:02.453 Matt Abrahams: The most effective communication is the 00:00:02.453 --> 00:00:04.894 communication that removes friction. 00:00:05.424 --> 00:00:08.404 My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:08.404 --> 00:00:10.113 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:10.314 --> 00:00:13.703 Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:18.478 --> 00:00:20.608 Today I look forward to chatting with Vanessa Van Edwards. 00:00:20.668 --> 00:00:23.698 Vanessa is the lead investigator at Science of People. 00:00:24.128 --> 00:00:28.328 She specializes in helping professionals master their people skills, increase 00:00:28.328 --> 00:00:33.248 likability, and confidently navigate both digital and in-person interactions. 00:00:33.567 --> 00:00:37.198 Vanessa has written two best-selling books, Captivate: The Science 00:00:37.198 --> 00:00:40.968 of Succeeding with People, and Cues: Master the Secret Language 00:00:40.968 --> 00:00:42.708 of Charismatic Communication. 00:00:43.188 --> 00:00:45.888 I got to know Vanessa when she joined me in teaching parts 00:00:45.888 --> 00:00:49.838 of my Strategic Communication Master Class Certificates course. 00:00:50.338 --> 00:00:51.428 Well, welcome, Vanessa. 00:00:51.458 --> 00:00:54.057 I have been looking forward to this conversation for quite a while. 00:00:54.058 --> 00:00:55.017 Thanks for being here. 00:00:55.517 --> 00:00:56.878 Vanessa Van Edwards: Thank you so much for having me. 00:00:56.878 --> 00:00:57.798 I'm so happy to be here. 00:00:58.478 --> 00:00:59.238 Matt Abrahams: Shall we get started? 00:00:59.668 --> 00:01:00.738 Vanessa Van Edwards: Yes, let's dive in. 00:01:01.388 --> 00:01:05.468 Matt Abrahams: So you focus on communication among many other things. 00:01:05.478 --> 00:01:09.027 Why is strategic communication so important? 00:01:09.428 --> 00:01:11.657 Vanessa Van Edwards: I think of communication as the number 00:01:11.668 --> 00:01:13.578 one way to remove friction. 00:01:14.188 --> 00:01:16.398 You know, I'm, I'm a recovering awkward person. 00:01:16.888 --> 00:01:21.588 And so I used to have a lot of friction in my conversations, in my relationships, 00:01:21.617 --> 00:01:23.238 where things just felt hard. 00:01:23.657 --> 00:01:26.617 I think when we look at strategic communication, communication that's 00:01:26.888 --> 00:01:31.078 built to connect, that's built to break down barriers, you are removing 00:01:31.078 --> 00:01:34.768 friction from every area of your life, your productivity, your ability 00:01:34.768 --> 00:01:38.027 to connect, your ability to feel happy, your ability to move forward. 00:01:38.058 --> 00:01:40.627 And so I think that when people think about getting things done 00:01:40.628 --> 00:01:43.918 or being successful, they have to add strategic communication to 00:01:43.918 --> 00:01:45.477 remove friction from their goals. 00:01:45.907 --> 00:01:48.778 Matt Abrahams: I love this idea of strategic communication 00:01:48.778 --> 00:01:50.108 as removing friction. 00:01:50.118 --> 00:01:51.948 It makes things easier. 00:01:51.958 --> 00:01:55.668 Communication is all about connection, and if we can make that smooth 00:01:55.668 --> 00:01:57.328 and easy, life just gets better. 00:01:57.328 --> 00:01:59.027 I, I appreciate you sharing that. 00:01:59.607 --> 00:02:04.037 Uh, you provide a lot of great advice and guidance for non-verbal presence. 00:02:04.037 --> 00:02:06.078 I really like the work that you do. 00:02:06.367 --> 00:02:07.697 It's extremely valuable. 00:02:07.728 --> 00:02:11.488 One area you focus on that I have not seen others focus on that I'd 00:02:11.488 --> 00:02:15.968 love for you to share a little bit with us about is gesturing. 00:02:15.978 --> 00:02:20.578 Can you share your thoughts on this, best practices, and why this is even important? 00:02:20.758 --> 00:02:24.447 Vanessa Van Edwards: I think that gestures are the most overlooked aspect 00:02:24.468 --> 00:02:28.068 of our presence, and the reason for this is because the brain is very 00:02:28.098 --> 00:02:30.688 attuned to gesture unconsciously. 00:02:30.728 --> 00:02:32.398 We don't realize we're looking at gesture so much. 00:02:32.398 --> 00:02:37.188 So for example, as I'm speaking, if I were to say to you, "I have, um, three 00:02:37.188 --> 00:02:40.148 big ideas," but hold up the number five, 00:02:40.658 --> 00:02:41.227 Matt Abrahams: It's confusing 00:02:42.134 --> 00:02:45.274 Vanessa Van Edwards: My mouth really, really wanted to say five really 00:02:45.274 --> 00:02:46.394 bad because I was holding up five. 00:02:46.823 --> 00:02:52.203 So one, there's a loop for you as the speaker that if your gestures are aligning 00:02:52.204 --> 00:02:56.884 with your words, you feel coherent, you feel confident, you feel like, okay, 00:02:56.884 --> 00:02:58.434 like I'm capable, I know my stuff. 00:02:58.803 --> 00:03:00.773 So that alignment's important for you as a speaker. 00:03:00.774 --> 00:03:05.274 And Dr. Susan Goldin-Meadow has found that gesture makes you more 00:03:05.274 --> 00:03:07.793 fluent, it makes you more charismatic. 00:03:08.443 --> 00:03:12.094 But also for the listener, your brain is looking for, how 00:03:12.144 --> 00:03:13.773 do I deeply understand you? 00:03:14.084 --> 00:03:17.413 Yes, I can listen to your words, I can hear tone, but also 00:03:17.414 --> 00:03:18.803 I'm looking for visual cues. 00:03:18.813 --> 00:03:23.654 So if I say that I have a really big idea and I hold my fingers really 00:03:23.654 --> 00:03:28.197 small, the other person's brain goes, "What?" And actually, you're more likely 00:03:28.197 --> 00:03:30.267 to believe my gesture over my words. 00:03:30.817 --> 00:03:36.047 And so I think that this is the secret way into a beautiful presence, which 00:03:36.047 --> 00:03:39.317 is it helps you as a speaker feel like you know your stuff, and it helps 00:03:39.317 --> 00:03:41.217 the listener remember your stuff. 00:03:41.648 --> 00:03:45.047 And also, between you and me, I have a secret third goal that I 00:03:45.058 --> 00:03:49.817 don't always share, which is if you don't know your stuff well enough, 00:03:49.898 --> 00:03:51.368 you won't be able to gesture. 00:03:52.207 --> 00:03:57.227 So thinking about gesture is a good self-check of, do I know 00:03:57.227 --> 00:04:00.947 my content so well that I could speak to you on two tracks? 00:04:01.287 --> 00:04:04.938 That I can walk on stage, hop into a boardroom, lead a meeting, and 00:04:04.938 --> 00:04:08.707 speak with my words, but also I could underline, outline, or highlight 00:04:08.707 --> 00:04:10.077 for people along with my hands. 00:04:10.257 --> 00:04:13.528 Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate that self-check idea because a lot of people 00:04:13.577 --> 00:04:17.087 will ask me, "How do I know when I'm ready? Have I practiced enough?" And I 00:04:17.097 --> 00:04:22.618 think a great way to check that is, are gestures natural, and are you doing them? 00:04:22.618 --> 00:04:26.168 And if you're not, it's a cue that perhaps you need to work a little bit more. 00:04:26.188 --> 00:04:29.248 And I love anything that connects, you know, to science and biology. 00:04:29.437 --> 00:04:32.127 One of the recommendations I always make with gesturing is that we 00:04:32.128 --> 00:04:33.828 want to do it beyond our shoulders. 00:04:33.868 --> 00:04:37.638 Nervous people gesture in front of their chest, and just going slightly 00:04:37.638 --> 00:04:41.938 beyond your shoulders, again, shows that openness, and I think that's important. 00:04:42.188 --> 00:04:43.888 Vanessa Van Edwards: I love gesturing beyond the shoulder. 00:04:43.888 --> 00:04:46.668 I think of it as the strike zone for any baseball players, right? 00:04:46.668 --> 00:04:47.707 Like, you like the strike zone. 00:04:48.128 --> 00:04:50.267 Also, be very careful to not penguin. 00:04:50.488 --> 00:04:53.057 I call it penguining, which is when you press your arms tightly 00:04:53.058 --> 00:04:56.147 to your side and you just have your arms angling, pivoting out. 00:04:56.268 --> 00:04:56.587 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:04:57.198 --> 00:05:00.168 Vanessa Van Edwards: So it's, it's not just a, a gesturing out. 00:05:00.188 --> 00:05:04.378 It's also we love the space between the torso and the arm. 00:05:04.948 --> 00:05:07.997 Very confident people are actually, they have a lot of space. 00:05:07.998 --> 00:05:09.038 You can see their torso. 00:05:09.068 --> 00:05:11.167 So not only gesturing out, but also creating a little bit 00:05:11.167 --> 00:05:12.337 of space there is also good. 00:05:12.427 --> 00:05:13.038 No penguining. 00:05:13.147 --> 00:05:15.477 Matt Abrahams: I love the idea of penguining, where the elbows are glued 00:05:15.477 --> 00:05:16.898 to the body, and we don't wanna do that. 00:05:16.898 --> 00:05:20.198 In fact, when I coach people, I'll say, "Imagine a ping pong ball or an 00:05:20.207 --> 00:05:24.217 egg in your armpit," and that just extends that elbow a little bit away. 00:05:24.687 --> 00:05:28.768 Uh, I wanna share some advice that a, a student of mine actually taught me. 00:05:29.077 --> 00:05:34.008 What he'll do to really focus on his gestures is he'll audio record himself 00:05:34.488 --> 00:05:39.018 doing his presentation or his pitch, and then he'll listen to it and not 00:05:39.028 --> 00:05:43.668 speak, but as he's listening, he'll go through his gestures, not to script or 00:05:43.668 --> 00:05:48.768 memorize them, but to get that part of his brain that does the gesturing working. 00:05:48.778 --> 00:05:51.438 And I thought that that was an excellent way of practicing. 00:05:51.618 --> 00:05:54.438 I do that now myself and find it really valuable. 00:05:54.717 --> 00:05:55.188 Vanessa Van Edwards: I love it. 00:05:55.188 --> 00:05:56.548 I, I, I'm gonna try this. 00:05:56.748 --> 00:06:01.018 Matt Abrahams: Vanessa, can you tell me what you mean by over and under-signaling 00:06:01.057 --> 00:06:02.837 in our non-verbal communication? 00:06:03.342 --> 00:06:07.222 Vanessa Van Edwards: So when you're very nervous, you either go into, um, 00:06:07.292 --> 00:06:09.722 freeze, which means you under-signal. 00:06:09.741 --> 00:06:10.692 You shut down the face. 00:06:10.702 --> 00:06:14.651 So anyone, all, any of my students who are, um, very anxious in a presentation, 00:06:14.651 --> 00:06:17.222 they under-signal, so they lose all expressiveness in their face. 00:06:17.532 --> 00:06:19.901 They lose all movement and expressiveness in their body. 00:06:19.901 --> 00:06:23.551 Their gestures, either they clasp their hands tightly or they're in their pockets 00:06:23.551 --> 00:06:27.562 or tightly to their sides, and they focus fully on just verbal, verbal, verbal. 00:06:27.572 --> 00:06:30.142 And they literally will try to deliver only verbal, and 00:06:30.142 --> 00:06:31.871 they lose all expressiveness. 00:06:32.282 --> 00:06:36.392 That under-signaling, I think, is a natural response of, "I'm 00:06:36.412 --> 00:06:38.092 scared, so don't notice me." 00:06:38.512 --> 00:06:42.001 If you're an under-signaler, we have to add in movement that feels good 00:06:42.001 --> 00:06:45.602 to them, whether that's even as small as an eyebrow raise, uh, pivoting on 00:06:45.602 --> 00:06:47.282 stage, how you hold the microphone. 00:06:47.292 --> 00:06:48.582 We have to add in expressiveness. 00:06:49.032 --> 00:06:52.241 The other side, and this is more me, expressers, we over-express. 00:06:52.241 --> 00:06:55.132 So I over-nod, I bobble head when I'm very nervous. 00:06:55.282 --> 00:06:55.482 Yeah. 00:06:56.022 --> 00:06:58.581 Um, I, uh, pace the stage, right? 00:06:58.582 --> 00:07:00.171 Which is very distracting for your audience. 00:07:00.532 --> 00:07:05.642 I will over-gesture or fidget gesture, and so I need to lessen my 00:07:05.642 --> 00:07:07.291 expression, or I need to, apologies. 00:07:07.322 --> 00:07:08.761 I need to make it more purposeful. 00:07:08.921 --> 00:07:11.101 Matt Abrahams: We'll be right back to finish our conversation. 00:07:11.151 --> 00:07:13.582 But first, a quick word from one of our sponsors. 00:07:13.631 --> 00:07:16.791 Their support allows us to bring you this show free of charge. 00:07:17.331 --> 00:07:19.841 One of my favorite things about this show is hearing from 00:07:19.841 --> 00:07:21.311 listeners all over the world. 00:07:21.691 --> 00:07:25.511 Communication connects us, and the more people you can communicate 00:07:25.511 --> 00:07:27.841 with, the bigger your world becomes. 00:07:27.911 --> 00:07:32.021 So many of you are collaborating internationally, working across cultures, 00:07:32.151 --> 00:07:35.271 or simply trying to connect more deeply with people around the world. 00:07:35.352 --> 00:07:39.292 That's one reason I've been thinking more and more about language learning. 00:07:39.352 --> 00:07:43.611 Babbel focuses on helping you have real conversations with real people, 00:07:43.801 --> 00:07:45.671 not just memorized vocabulary. 00:07:46.001 --> 00:07:49.591 Their lessons are designed by more than 200 language experts and built 00:07:49.591 --> 00:07:54.361 around practical communication skills you can actually use in everyday life. 00:07:54.852 --> 00:07:57.501 And because the lessons are short and approachable, it's easy to 00:07:57.501 --> 00:07:59.472 fit them in a busy schedule. 00:07:59.881 --> 00:08:03.121 Just 10 minutes a day can help you make meaningful progress. 00:08:03.511 --> 00:08:06.141 If you've ever thought about learning a new language, this is 00:08:06.141 --> 00:08:08.271 the perfect opportunity to start. 00:08:08.651 --> 00:08:16.511 Right now, Babbel is offering up to 60% off your subscription at babbel.com/tfts. 00:08:16.832 --> 00:08:18.751 And now, back to our conversation. 00:08:18.892 --> 00:08:23.601 I really like this idea of under and over-signaling and recording yourself and 00:08:23.602 --> 00:08:27.161 watching and identifying, where am I over? 00:08:27.161 --> 00:08:28.151 Where am I under? 00:08:28.151 --> 00:08:29.911 Am I consistently one way or the other? 00:08:29.911 --> 00:08:31.451 Is a great way to diagnose. 00:08:31.461 --> 00:08:33.611 Again, the goal is not to script gestures. 00:08:33.891 --> 00:08:37.182 The goal is just to become aware so that we can be more purposeful, 00:08:37.182 --> 00:08:38.581 and I really appreciate that. 00:08:38.761 --> 00:08:43.111 I know you see presence being more than what we do with our bodies. 00:08:43.241 --> 00:08:46.752 You are all about impact and word choice as well. 00:08:47.162 --> 00:08:52.271 What are a few common danger words we use in everyday emails or pitches 00:08:52.271 --> 00:08:55.341 that can adversely affect our credibility and how people see us? 00:08:56.291 --> 00:08:59.622 Vanessa Van Edwards: There are two kind of danger zone buckets for verbal. 00:08:59.791 --> 00:09:03.632 The first is sterile, and the second is accidentally negative. 00:09:04.082 --> 00:09:07.291 And I think that these are crippling our communication. 00:09:07.291 --> 00:09:09.392 They add a lot of friction without realizing it. 00:09:09.761 --> 00:09:11.242 So first, let's talk about sterile. 00:09:12.061 --> 00:09:17.031 So much of our communication has moved from in-person to solely verbal, 00:09:17.201 --> 00:09:19.711 only over email, Slack, text, chat. 00:09:20.261 --> 00:09:25.021 And so more of our critical ideas and our first impressions and our 00:09:25.021 --> 00:09:28.722 presence is communicating only verbally, which means we are becoming 00:09:28.722 --> 00:09:31.882 more sterile with our communication because we are doing it so much. 00:09:32.261 --> 00:09:36.672 So very sterile communication is autopilot words, the subject follow-up. 00:09:37.492 --> 00:09:41.351 Words like, uh, get back to you, just thinking about it, 00:09:41.422 --> 00:09:43.382 checking in, wanna circle back. 00:09:44.011 --> 00:09:46.781 Phrases and words that we hear all the time that our brain 00:09:46.781 --> 00:09:48.552 doesn't even register as emotion. 00:09:48.702 --> 00:09:51.921 Like it's, it's just, um, default communication. 00:09:51.921 --> 00:09:55.432 The problem is when we do this over email or chat over and over again, the 00:09:55.442 --> 00:09:57.752 brain goes on autopilot, too, right? 00:09:57.771 --> 00:10:01.761 Our, our, our reaction is just, oh, this email's gonna be like 00:10:01.761 --> 00:10:03.082 every other email I've ever gotten. 00:10:03.332 --> 00:10:08.181 And so the first thing that I wanna fight with danger zone is breaking the sterile, 00:10:08.302 --> 00:10:12.982 is adding in words that do have a little bit of emotion, a little bit of behavior. 00:10:12.982 --> 00:10:17.182 So for example, if you have a meeting coming up, what is the feeling that 00:10:17.182 --> 00:10:20.602 you want someone to feel when they see your name pop up in their inbox? 00:10:21.517 --> 00:10:25.657 How do you want them to behave that sets them up for success and you up 00:10:25.657 --> 00:10:27.527 for success in the actual meeting? 00:10:27.937 --> 00:10:30.348 So a calendar invite is a great example of this. 00:10:30.348 --> 00:10:34.838 I always have my students do a calendar invite audit, where I have them look 00:10:34.838 --> 00:10:37.108 at their calendar, they open up the calendar, and I have them write down 00:10:37.218 --> 00:10:40.137 all the, um, emotion words they see. 00:10:40.267 --> 00:10:43.037 So meeting one-on-one, review, doesn't count. 00:10:43.307 --> 00:10:44.927 Video call, doesn't count. 00:10:45.608 --> 00:10:47.187 And usually there are none, right? 00:10:47.478 --> 00:10:50.838 But every single time you open your calendar, you're priming yourself with 00:10:50.838 --> 00:10:54.867 a verbal cue, and you're also, that's often the meeting's first impression that 00:10:54.867 --> 00:10:57.517 your client is getting or your student is getting or your colleague's getting. 00:10:58.067 --> 00:11:01.667 So if you want it to be a collaborative session, call it a collaborative meeting. 00:11:01.988 --> 00:11:04.887 If you want it to be a strategy session, call it a strategy session. 00:11:04.897 --> 00:11:09.337 If you want it to be about 2026 goals, call it 2026 goal review. 00:11:09.667 --> 00:11:13.777 We can add in very, very small words that wake our brains up 00:11:13.817 --> 00:11:15.357 and begin to cue for behavior. 00:11:15.677 --> 00:11:16.887 That fights that sterile. 00:11:17.708 --> 00:11:21.887 The second is accidentally negative, and this happens verbally. 00:11:22.208 --> 00:11:25.848 Usually in the first minute of interaction, which is incredibly 00:11:25.848 --> 00:11:28.907 important for your first impression, we throw away our words. 00:11:29.557 --> 00:11:32.938 We start by saying, "Oh my gosh, it's been so busy. 00:11:32.938 --> 00:11:33.967 What a crazy schedule. 00:11:33.967 --> 00:11:34.877 So sorry I'm late. 00:11:34.877 --> 00:11:35.737 What terrible traffic. 00:11:36.007 --> 00:11:41.117 This horrible weather." When we do that, you're literally cueing the 00:11:41.117 --> 00:11:42.688 other person's brain to go negative. 00:11:43.167 --> 00:11:48.217 Matt Abrahams: This notion of sterile language and negative language is 00:11:48.277 --> 00:11:51.617 absolutely something we need to, to look at and to be concerned with. 00:11:52.507 --> 00:11:57.527 How we prime people impacts how they see us, and doing an 00:11:57.537 --> 00:11:59.247 audit of our language can help. 00:11:59.598 --> 00:12:03.157 I am one hundred percent behind you on thinking about meeting 00:12:03.157 --> 00:12:04.728 invites and calendar invites. 00:12:05.137 --> 00:12:08.327 Most people don't like going to meetings, so calling something a meeting 00:12:08.417 --> 00:12:10.637 immediately triggers a negative aspect. 00:12:10.637 --> 00:12:15.167 So I like your idea of how can we bring action just to the titles of our meetings. 00:12:15.438 --> 00:12:19.098 And what we say when we initiate interaction can set 00:12:19.098 --> 00:12:20.708 ourselves up for success. 00:12:20.738 --> 00:12:24.367 So thank you for sharing those bits of advice, and I encourage everybody to 00:12:24.367 --> 00:12:27.007 do an audit of how you start things. 00:12:27.927 --> 00:12:33.287 Beyond our bodies and words, you highlight imagery cues, and I really like this idea. 00:12:33.718 --> 00:12:35.037 What are the colors we wear? 00:12:35.037 --> 00:12:37.257 Are the props visible in our background? 00:12:37.727 --> 00:12:42.127 We are secretly telling people things about our status, our trustworthiness. 00:12:42.307 --> 00:12:44.458 Can you give us some insight into these imagery cues? 00:12:45.646 --> 00:12:48.616 Vanessa Van Edwards: I love thinking about imagery because we don't 00:12:48.626 --> 00:12:53.656 realize that we are creating or triggering people's neural maps. 00:12:54.055 --> 00:12:55.925 Now, this is a concept that I fell in love with. 00:12:55.945 --> 00:12:58.746 You know, I'm, I'm a researcher, and I fell in love with it because it's 00:12:58.746 --> 00:13:04.286 this idea that one word can light up a kind of tree in someone's mind. 00:13:04.915 --> 00:13:09.986 So for example, if I were to, on a dating website and have a picture of me 00:13:09.986 --> 00:13:16.075 skiing, someone seeing me skiing would trigger a whole tree of activation. 00:13:16.075 --> 00:13:22.065 Now, for some people, they might think fun, adventure, family, amazing. 00:13:22.585 --> 00:13:27.746 Other people would think cold, dangerous, scary, adrenaline. 00:13:27.746 --> 00:13:29.065 Matt Abrahams: I'm in the latter camp, by the way 00:13:29.156 --> 00:13:30.086 Vanessa Van Edwards: I don't ski. 00:13:31.836 --> 00:13:36.665 So those are two completely different behavioral responses. 00:13:37.475 --> 00:13:41.606 I think there's opportunity here to be purposeful with the kind 00:13:41.606 --> 00:13:43.326 of neural maps you're creating. 00:13:43.685 --> 00:13:47.656 And so we can think about in our Zoom background, the props on our desk, what 00:13:47.656 --> 00:13:49.476 we're holding in our profile pictures. 00:13:49.756 --> 00:13:52.026 When I'm working with companies, what's on your website? 00:13:52.305 --> 00:13:53.685 Um, what's in your commercials? 00:13:53.716 --> 00:13:55.575 What's on your social profiles? 00:13:55.835 --> 00:13:56.886 What's in your header? 00:13:57.515 --> 00:14:01.545 Those are all creating neural maps, and here's the thing I think is 00:14:01.545 --> 00:14:05.787 maybe a little bit controversial Sometimes you don't want to have a 00:14:05.787 --> 00:14:07.777 neural map that appeals to everyone. 00:14:08.238 --> 00:14:13.218 I think it's actually better to create neural maps that appeal to your people. 00:14:13.657 --> 00:14:16.617 I like blueprints, formula, framework. 00:14:16.897 --> 00:14:21.568 You know, I, I love very specific, uh, black and white teaching of soft skills. 00:14:22.117 --> 00:14:25.598 There are some people who will not like that, and they are not our people, right? 00:14:25.598 --> 00:14:29.167 Like, they're not going to like my science-backed approach to conversation 00:14:29.167 --> 00:14:30.198 because they're our formula. 00:14:30.228 --> 00:14:36.057 So on our website, we created allergies for those people so that when they come 00:14:36.057 --> 00:14:39.727 to us, if you love that, you are gonna be attracted to the imagery we use, 00:14:39.747 --> 00:14:44.478 imagery of science, imagery of chemicals, uh, imagery of words like science 00:14:44.497 --> 00:14:46.708 and, um, certificate and blueprint. 00:14:47.247 --> 00:14:50.297 That, we do that on purpose 'cause I don't want to appeal to everyone. 00:14:50.387 --> 00:14:54.188 And so I think for us and for listeners to think about is who 00:14:54.188 --> 00:14:58.317 are the kind of people who are your people that you really get along with? 00:14:58.757 --> 00:15:02.468 It removes friction if you can call to those people faster. 00:15:03.888 --> 00:15:06.588 Matt Abrahams: We had a great conversation with Seth Godin, who talks 00:15:06.588 --> 00:15:10.507 very similarly to find your tribe, find the people, and target them. 00:15:11.108 --> 00:15:14.627 What you add to it that I think is great is, is the idea of allergies. 00:15:14.688 --> 00:15:17.907 What can we build in not just to speak to the people we wanna speak 00:15:17.907 --> 00:15:21.848 to, but what do we put out there that signals to people that, that aren't 00:15:21.958 --> 00:15:24.267 our people that this isn't for you? 00:15:24.438 --> 00:15:27.317 And we're saving them time, and we're saving ourselves time, 00:15:27.317 --> 00:15:28.608 so that's really interesting. 00:15:28.907 --> 00:15:34.367 But taking a step back, this idea of curating the experience for people, not 00:15:34.367 --> 00:15:38.247 just in what you say and how you say it, but what you show makes a difference. 00:15:38.507 --> 00:15:41.257 I'll give you an example that I find really fascinating. 00:15:41.557 --> 00:15:44.897 There's some recent research that says with those backgrounds people put, you, 00:15:44.897 --> 00:15:48.598 you have three choices of backgrounds when you're virtual: a real background, as 00:15:48.598 --> 00:15:54.588 you and I have, uh, uh, an image that you put up, or that blurry, fuzzy background. 00:15:54.627 --> 00:15:59.057 And what the research says is the blurry, fuzzy background primes people to think 00:15:59.057 --> 00:16:02.017 that you're hiding something, that there's something you want to keep away 00:16:02.017 --> 00:16:06.238 from them, and that's how they come to your communication, to the interaction. 00:16:06.557 --> 00:16:12.817 So what we show people helps them form opinions of us and filter 00:16:12.817 --> 00:16:16.168 what we say, and you highlight that very clearly when you talk about 00:16:16.178 --> 00:16:17.938 imagery cues, and I appreciate that. 00:16:18.167 --> 00:16:20.887 Vanessa Van Edwards: And also, with a blurry background, I think you're 00:16:20.897 --> 00:16:23.638 actually missing an opportunity, right? 00:16:23.638 --> 00:16:25.988 Like, my goal in interaction is to make it as easy to 00:16:26.038 --> 00:16:27.638 communicate with me as possible. 00:16:28.088 --> 00:16:30.918 That should always be our goal, is that we wanna put people at ease. 00:16:31.238 --> 00:16:35.287 If you are hiding your background, their brain, one, it's one step even 00:16:35.288 --> 00:16:37.537 further from in person, 'cause we don't have a blurry background in 00:16:37.538 --> 00:16:38.958 person, so it, it's even further. 00:16:38.958 --> 00:16:41.867 But also you're missing an opportunity to give them cues that 00:16:41.868 --> 00:16:45.098 might help them know you, and that makes it easy to communicate with. 00:16:45.578 --> 00:16:47.548 Matt Abrahams: If you enjoyed my recent conversation with Jean and 00:16:47.548 --> 00:16:50.788 Cherie from The Tiger Sisters, I think you'll really love their show. 00:16:51.107 --> 00:16:54.017 Jean and Cherie are known as the Internet's Wall Street and Silicon 00:16:54.018 --> 00:16:57.648 Valley big sisters, and together they've built Tiger Sisters into a 00:16:57.648 --> 00:17:01.039 top-ranked business podcast, reaching number one in business and top 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:03.588 three overall in Spotify in the US. 00:17:03.958 --> 00:17:07.908 They take big and sometimes complicated ideas around money, power, and love, 00:17:08.158 --> 00:17:11.578 and turn them into clear, practical tools you can apply right away. 00:17:11.958 --> 00:17:15.697 Two fun facts: I coached Cherie for her TEDx talk, and I had the 00:17:15.698 --> 00:17:17.177 chance to join them on their show. 00:17:17.358 --> 00:17:21.398 And I have to say, it was a really thoughtful and engaging conversation. 00:17:21.868 --> 00:17:25.628 They ask great questions and bring a perspective you don't always hear. 00:17:25.958 --> 00:17:29.788 New episodes drop every Monday on their YouTube channel and across all audio 00:17:29.788 --> 00:17:32.258 platforms at Tiger Sisters Podcast. 00:17:33.027 --> 00:17:37.378 We all grew up with the golden rule, uh, but you advocate for something a little, 00:17:37.378 --> 00:17:39.858 a little ritzier, the, the platinum rule. 00:17:40.138 --> 00:17:42.908 What's the difference, and how does applying it change the way 00:17:42.908 --> 00:17:46.168 we motivate and appreciate the people we work with in our teams? 00:17:46.458 --> 00:17:48.688 Vanessa Van Edwards: I was raised with the golden rule, treat others 00:17:48.718 --> 00:17:50.038 as you would treat yourself. 00:17:50.178 --> 00:17:51.888 And the golden rule got me in trouble. 00:17:52.638 --> 00:17:53.538 And it did. 00:17:53.538 --> 00:17:59.036 It got me in trouble because it actually is quite self-focused I believe, I've 00:17:59.436 --> 00:18:03.236 come to learn that if you are very self-focused interaction, especially 00:18:03.236 --> 00:18:07.466 at work and especially in, in high stakes interactions, it is very hard 00:18:07.466 --> 00:18:11.356 to have empathy, compassion, and see where the other person is coming from. 00:18:11.625 --> 00:18:13.976 Because you've, you're in the filter of, well, how would 00:18:13.996 --> 00:18:15.365 I wanna be treated in this? 00:18:15.876 --> 00:18:18.676 The platinum rule is treat others as they would wanna be treated, 00:18:18.766 --> 00:18:22.506 and it is a very different mental shift in every social interaction. 00:18:22.996 --> 00:18:28.835 It helps you be other focused, which is an immediate click on for empathy 00:18:28.886 --> 00:18:32.745 because you're thinking, what is happening in their world, in their day? 00:18:33.126 --> 00:18:36.756 If I were them, what would be worrying me or keeping me up at night? 00:18:36.816 --> 00:18:38.246 What would my goal or motivation be? 00:18:38.576 --> 00:18:40.536 And it completely changes your questions. 00:18:40.926 --> 00:18:45.216 So instead of a back and forth of I feel, I feel, I feel, it's 00:18:45.726 --> 00:18:47.326 why, why do you feel that way? 00:18:47.366 --> 00:18:48.466 How do you feel that way? 00:18:48.526 --> 00:18:49.786 What made you feel that way? 00:18:50.306 --> 00:18:52.896 And it creates a very different way of communicating. 00:18:52.946 --> 00:18:55.886 And so I'm trying to encourage people to think more about the platinum rule. 00:18:55.916 --> 00:18:58.466 This is actually, I think, the more elevated and more 00:18:58.476 --> 00:18:59.986 challenging way to communicate. 00:19:01.336 --> 00:19:04.206 Matt Abrahams: It requires that we really appreciate our audience and understand 00:19:04.206 --> 00:19:05.936 what's important and relevant to them. 00:19:06.026 --> 00:19:09.245 And when we do that, then we can be in service of them and, and 00:19:09.245 --> 00:19:12.416 achieve the platinum rule and really give them what they need. 00:19:13.236 --> 00:19:14.796 Vanessa, this has been fantastic. 00:19:14.796 --> 00:19:18.106 I knew we were gonna have a, a great conversation. 00:19:18.456 --> 00:19:21.915 As you know, uh, I end with three questions, one I make up just 00:19:21.916 --> 00:19:25.026 for you, and then two I've been asking everybody for a long time. 00:19:25.026 --> 00:19:25.676 Are you up for that? 00:19:25.915 --> 00:19:26.395 Vanessa Van Edwards: I love it. 00:19:26.446 --> 00:19:26.856 Yes. 00:19:27.075 --> 00:19:27.805 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:19:27.806 --> 00:19:31.116 So you study so many interesting and exciting things. 00:19:31.176 --> 00:19:33.996 Would you be willing to give us a little sneak peek into something 00:19:33.996 --> 00:19:35.426 that you're exploring currently? 00:19:35.976 --> 00:19:38.716 Vanessa Van Edwards: I've spent the last eight years diving into conversation. 00:19:38.766 --> 00:19:40.855 Captivate is about first impressions. 00:19:41.175 --> 00:19:44.506 Uh, Cues is about charisma and, uh, non-verbal. 00:19:44.905 --> 00:19:50.206 The one thing missing I felt was a deep look at how do we elevate conversation. 00:19:50.326 --> 00:19:54.576 How do we move from casual acquaintances to best friends? 00:19:54.766 --> 00:19:55.286 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:19:55.476 --> 00:19:58.675 Vanessa Van Edwards: And so in October, my next book is coming out, 00:19:58.766 --> 00:20:04.416 and it's the blueprint for meaningful connective conversation if you want it. 00:20:05.732 --> 00:20:07.262 Taking back control. 00:20:07.331 --> 00:20:09.292 You don't need to go to level three with your Uber driver 00:20:09.341 --> 00:20:10.812 unless you want to, right? 00:20:11.292 --> 00:20:15.331 So for introverts, for my introverts, this book is really for, for you, 00:20:15.341 --> 00:20:17.802 for my introverts and ambiverts, is how do we take back control in 00:20:17.802 --> 00:20:21.161 conversation and create connection without having to fake being extroverted? 00:20:21.302 --> 00:20:25.042 The book is done, and I'm just, like, I'm just so excited for it to 00:20:25.042 --> 00:20:27.762 be in people's hands, and so that's gonna be, that's my next big one. 00:20:27.762 --> 00:20:28.192 I can't wait. 00:20:28.591 --> 00:20:31.222 Matt Abrahams: Question number two, I'll be very curious for your answer for this. 00:20:31.222 --> 00:20:34.262 Who's a communicator that you admire, and why? 00:20:34.461 --> 00:20:35.871 Vanessa Van Edwards: Mine is Lucille Ball. 00:20:37.281 --> 00:20:41.412 I think that laughter is the lubrication of learning. 00:20:41.482 --> 00:20:46.732 I think laughter is the, um, shortcut to connection. 00:20:47.382 --> 00:20:52.601 Um, I'm not very funny, but I do try to be, and I think, um, her as a 00:20:52.601 --> 00:20:58.392 communicator, she was able to communicate so much, uh, about values and family and 00:20:58.542 --> 00:21:05.272 ambition and fame, uh, through her humor, and also was extremely entrepreneurial 00:21:05.272 --> 00:21:07.122 and created a whole new way of filming. 00:21:07.402 --> 00:21:10.532 And so I think Lucille Ball was one of those communicators where she just 00:21:10.581 --> 00:21:12.872 was able to be herself on camera. 00:21:13.111 --> 00:21:17.022 Matt Abrahams: She was truly special, not just on camera, but behind, in 00:21:17.022 --> 00:21:21.642 this idea that levity can really be a useful tool for connection. 00:21:21.992 --> 00:21:26.072 And for our younger audiences who might not recognize Lucille Ball 00:21:26.072 --> 00:21:31.112 right away, find your favorite search engine, go search Lucille Ball and 00:21:31.161 --> 00:21:35.722 Chocolate Factory, and you can see how somebody can communicate a lot 00:21:35.722 --> 00:21:38.152 of information with very few words. 00:21:39.242 --> 00:21:43.172 Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a 00:21:43.172 --> 00:21:45.242 successful communication recipe? 00:21:45.932 --> 00:21:49.711 Vanessa Van Edwards: The first one is weird, but, um, dog energy. 00:21:50.692 --> 00:21:55.331 And what I mean by that is dogs, you know, most dogs, not all, but most 00:21:55.331 --> 00:21:57.382 dogs are really excited to see you. 00:21:57.762 --> 00:21:59.831 They assume the best, right? 00:21:59.831 --> 00:22:01.562 Like, they are like, "Do you have a treat for me? 00:22:01.562 --> 00:22:05.272 Do you have a pet for me?" I think dog energy, like that assumption of 00:22:05.272 --> 00:22:08.901 good, that assumption of there could be a nice treat or pet waiting for 00:22:08.902 --> 00:22:12.942 you, um, in this conversation, I think is the first thing, that bringing 00:22:12.942 --> 00:22:16.762 that energy and that perspective as opposed to, you know, cat energy, and 00:22:16.762 --> 00:22:20.702 I love a cat, but you know, cat energy of like, "I'm gonna play it cool. 00:22:21.882 --> 00:22:24.821 I'm gonna wait until they like me first. 00:22:25.291 --> 00:22:30.482 I'm gonna be mysterious." That is very challenging, uh, to make, to make, 00:22:30.522 --> 00:22:32.081 um, good and successful communication. 00:22:32.081 --> 00:22:32.822 So dog energy. 00:22:33.262 --> 00:22:35.631 Second is something I touched on earlier, which is this idea of 00:22:36.482 --> 00:22:37.922 putting the other person at ease. 00:22:38.122 --> 00:22:43.481 I think, um, for those social overthinkers like me, uh, we can get very in our head. 00:22:43.741 --> 00:22:46.871 The only way I think to get out of our head is to get into their head. 00:22:47.351 --> 00:22:50.692 So the platinum rule is how can I put this person at ease? 00:22:50.952 --> 00:22:53.341 That's, uh, an, an incredibly important gift you can give someone 00:22:53.341 --> 00:22:54.422 and also gets out of your own head. 00:22:54.972 --> 00:22:58.112 And, uh, third is to appeal to the caveman brain. 00:22:59.364 --> 00:23:02.584 In successful communication, uh, when you're hiding something, when you 00:23:02.584 --> 00:23:07.294 are anxious, when you have negative non-verbals, those are perceived 00:23:07.324 --> 00:23:10.574 as microaggressions that make them feel more afraid and anxious. 00:23:10.984 --> 00:23:13.874 And so the easier you can be to communicate with, the clearer your 00:23:13.874 --> 00:23:17.164 warmth, the clearer your confidence, the clearer that you're signaling that 00:23:17.164 --> 00:23:20.064 you know what you're talking about, that actually puts them at ease and helps 00:23:20.364 --> 00:23:22.454 relax that caveman part of their brain. 00:23:22.594 --> 00:23:24.804 I think those are the, the best ingredients you can have 00:23:24.804 --> 00:23:25.834 for successful communication. 00:23:26.614 --> 00:23:30.904 Matt Abrahams: Bringing energy and desire to be communicated to and to 00:23:30.904 --> 00:23:35.714 communicate with others, putting others first and what's important for them, and 00:23:35.714 --> 00:23:37.734 showing that you're open and receptive. 00:23:38.394 --> 00:23:44.284 Wonderful recipe, and clearly, uh, one that would lead to less friction and 00:23:44.293 --> 00:23:46.093 more enjoyment in our communication. 00:23:46.114 --> 00:23:49.274 And I have to say, Vanessa, this was incredibly enjoyable. 00:23:49.714 --> 00:23:51.563 Lots of great tips and advice. 00:23:51.804 --> 00:23:52.944 Thank you for your time. 00:23:52.954 --> 00:23:55.874 Thank you for your collaboration, and I appreciate and wish 00:23:55.874 --> 00:23:56.904 you luck on the new book. 00:23:57.544 --> 00:23:58.734 Vanessa Van Edwards: Thank you so much for having me. 00:23:59.184 --> 00:24:01.384 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think 00:24:01.384 --> 00:24:03.444 Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:24:03.753 --> 00:24:06.154 To learn more about nonverbal communication, listen to 00:24:06.154 --> 00:24:08.584 episode 137 with Dana Carney. 00:24:09.123 --> 00:24:12.423 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Alex McCarthy, 00:24:12.444 --> 00:24:14.964 Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:24:15.214 --> 00:24:16.904 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:24:17.044 --> 00:24:19.514 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:24:19.864 --> 00:24:22.944 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:24:23.164 --> 00:24:25.114 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:24:25.333 --> 00:24:30.764 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram and check out fastersmarter.io 00:24:30.774 --> 00:24:34.794 for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. 00:24:35.264 --> 00:24:38.204 Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community 00:24:38.204 --> 00:24:41.004 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:24:41.253 --> 00:24:44.444 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI 00:24:44.503 --> 00:24:46.534 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:24:46.833 --> 00:24:51.784 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our global Think 00:24:51.794 --> 00:24:54.054 Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community.