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Kind: captions
Language: en-GB

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Travis Bader: I'm Travis Bader,
and this is the Silvercore podcast.

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Silvercore has been providing its
members with the skills and knowledge

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necessary to be confident and proficient
in the outdoors for over 20 years.

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And we make it easier for people to deepen
their connection to the natural world.

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If you enjoy the positive
and educational content.

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We provide, please let others
know by sharing, commenting, and

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following so that you can join in on
everything that Silvercore stands for.

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If you'd like to learn more
about becoming a member of the

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Silvercore club and community,
visit our website at silvercore.

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ca.

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Do you want to sleep better, relax,
achieve more, be happier, take control?

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That's the goal of today's guest.

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Who left the prestigious lifestyle
of working at some of the UK's

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largest media production companies
to forge a new path along with

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co founder Bear Grylls to develop
Metal, the first mobile app designed

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specifically for men's mental fitness.

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Welcome to the Silvercore
podcast, Neil Smith.

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Neil Smith: Thank you, Travis.

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What a great intro.

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You know, you did say if you don't
like it, you can just say start

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again, but no, let's go with that one.

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Travis Bader: Excellent.

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I always, you know, I find that's
the hardest part for me is doing that

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intro because if I don't do that,
right, then I set the tone wrong.

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And there's a part of me that feels
I've done this for like 120 podcasts.

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Maybe it's time.

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I should just start, just start
talking and see where it goes.

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But, uh, Uh,

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Neil Smith: yeah, you
did look very serious.

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You look very serious.

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Travis Bader: Well, you know, you
gotta, you gotta make it look right.

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You know, when we're talking before,
you're saying that some of the happiest

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times in your life are times when you've
been working with the co founder of Metal,

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Bear Grylls, and you're telling a few
kind of fun stories that surrounded that.

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Are those things that you'd want
to share with the audience here?

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Of

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Neil Smith: course.

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What sort of fun stories?

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I can't remember which ones

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Travis Bader: they were.

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Well, you didn't delve too deep into them.

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So I was hoping to get them from you here

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Neil Smith: Yeah, fine.

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I mean well look, you know, so You know
metal m e t t l e that is so it's not

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metal the kind of material It's a metal
as in you know per m e t t l e is the

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spelling and it's a person's ability To
overcome or cope with difficulties, you

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know spirit and resilience and I guess
that you know before I got into the The

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mental fitness app game, you know, as you
say, I was a big TV producer in the UK.

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I produced, I ran a couple
of big production companies.

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One of the companies I ran, I,
I met Bear for the first time.

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We started working together and we spent
many, many years having great shows.

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And, and, you know, metal actually kind
of sums up what his shows are about.

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You know, it's about a person's
ability to cope and overcome

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with, uh, overcome difficulties,
you know, spirit and resilience.

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So actually the name of our company now
really kind of, you know, encapsulates.

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What we were doing, you know, so I
mean bear is brilliant fun to work with

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Because you know like by the time I
started working with bear I was probably

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a little bit too senior to go on every
shoot, you know Um, but I did anyway

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because they were the shoots that I
wanted to be on and I'd always kind of

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say to, to the, you know, to, um, to the
team, Oh, look, it's an expensive show.

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There's a lot that can go wrong.

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True.

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You know, it's dangerous.

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Also true.

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Um, you know, I really need to be
on this shoot and yeah, we just had

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a brilliant time filming together
all over the world, you know.

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You know, bear is a kind of consummate
performer, but he's also somebody

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who really kind of lives this stuff
Yes, so he kind of loves adventure.

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He can't really live without it.

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You know, he's so you know in his downtime
You'll find him jumping out of planes,

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you know, often way more dangerously
actually than we're allowed to do on TV.

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That much lower, lower kind
of distances from the ground.

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And, um, yeah, so it was just brilliant
fun to travel with him and his crew.

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He always kind of credits the
crew as being the real heroes.

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of the journey, you know, because they're
the ones who kind of like, you know, have

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to do exactly the same as him, but with
a camera or a sound, right, sound kill.

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And I 100 percent agree with that.

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It does create a great atmosphere and
you've got a great crew kind of flying

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around the world, just getting up to high
jinx, you know, jumping out of airplanes

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into volcanic lakes, whatever it might
be, you know, sleeping in the jungle,

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uh, you know, eating crazy stuff, you
know, feeding, you know, You know, A

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list celebrities, ants for breakfast,
or, you know, whatever, wherever it

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could be, you know, so working with
Bear was one of the highlights of my

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career, for sure, you know, in TV, uh,
and it's great fun, I mean, you're an

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outdoorsman yourself, aren't you, so, you
know, I'm based in London, uh, uh, our

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ability to kind of get out in the wild
is more limited, um, and so doing those

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shows, you know, it's great, however,
I was, There was a, uh, um, a Google

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presentation that we did recently that
Bear did and somebody asked him, Oh, you

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know, what if you live in the city, you
know, how do you connect with nature?

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You know, he said, turn on the cold
tap, get in the shower, turn on the

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cold tap, you know, there's nature
for you right there, you know, cold,

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having a cold shower, you know, that's
kind of one of the ways that you can

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kind of look after your mental health.

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Fitness, you know, that's a great
way to reconnect with nature.

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I don't know how, how, how
often are you out in the wild?

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Travis Bader: You know, I always say
not often enough, not as often as

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I'd like, because personally, I'd
like to be out there all the time.

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And I, you know, Silvercore is Silvercore
Outdoors, the company, not the Silvercore

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podcast is designed specifically to help
strengthen, uh, people's connections

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with their natural environment.

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And I do that because.

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It brings me a lot of comfort
and joy being outside.

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There's a whole, there is a whole
mental fitness aspect of that.

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Yeah, some people, they just,
they don't even want to be alone.

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They're afraid to go outside.

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They don't know what to do.

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Um, they don't want to go in the
ocean cause they're afraid of sharks.

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So we don't have sharks over here.

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They don't want to go in
the woods cause of bears.

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Well, we have bears, but they're not.

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They're not a concern if we look
at this statistically, right.

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Um, but if we can do a little bit just
to, uh, break down those barriers and

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to deepen that connection with people's
natural environment, then I mean,

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that, that speaks to me and my soul.

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I like to create things.

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I like to be outside.

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How can I marry the two of those together?

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And this is where I'm at so far in,
in my endeavor and in my journey

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going through is with Silvercore
Outdoors and in the podcast.

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And hopefully people listening
to this, it'll inspire them.

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To say, man, like, what is this
metal app that I could check out?

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Or like one of our past guests
recently, Alistair Humphries.

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He's one of your, uh,
countrymen and he's, yeah.

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And he was talking about micro
adventures and how, like, if

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you're in a built up area, how
can you get out and actually have.

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An adventure and maybe get
portions of what you get on some

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major epic adventure as well.

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So that's, uh, that's what I'm
looking to do with the podcast.

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If there's some positivity I can share and
bring value to the audience and the guest.

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I've done my job.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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You know, I met bear, uh, a
few years ago at shot show.

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Uh, shot shows, a shooting, hunting,
outdoor trade show in, uh, in Vegas.

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And, you know, I've, uh, watched
his shows for, for years.

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And the one thing that always struck
me is that underlying positivity,

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like he'll, he'll have his detractors,
he'll have people come out and say,

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oh, he stayed in a hotel sometime
or, uh, and who knows, maybe that was

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part of, part of you guys and your
production team putting them up or.

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It

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Neil Smith: wasn't, I can just say
categorically that he never stayed in

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a hotel when we filmed him as if he'd
stayed overnight on any of our production.

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Well, so yeah.

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And you know, yeah, no, you know,
if, if he was sleeping out, he was

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Travis Bader: sleeping out.

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That's amazing.

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Well, you know, there were, uh, And
I'd watch these people and I won't get

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into the specifics because people can
Google and then get there themselves.

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But what really impressed
me was the response.

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And the response always was, uh, yeah,
so and so probably is a better, uh,

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bushcraft person than myself, or, you
know, I'm just trying to do ABC and

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bring some positivity or, you know,
this person over here, they've got a

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great thing, I'd, I'd give it to them.

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And he's always quick to give away.

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That credit to somebody else.

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And the ego seems to be low.

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I mean, everyone's going to have an
ego, but the, the management of that

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ego and the, uh, the underlying goal
of what it seems like he's trying to

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do, which is a spread positivity and
to bring people up, shines through.

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So,

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Neil Smith: you know, he, he wants people
to find their own adventures, you know?

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Uh, you're right.

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He, as I said earlier, you know.

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He always says, Oh, it's not me.

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He's doing, I'm not the real hero.

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Look at the crew.

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That guy's got to do the same as me.

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But with the, with the, you know,
15 kilo camera on his shoulder

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and still hang off everything.

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And, you know, it's kind of like.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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He's kind of very humble, uh, character.

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Um, but you know, it's all about
inspiring people, you know, bears.

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Mantra is never give up.

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So I love it's kind of like, okay, well,
whatever you're going through, keep going.

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You know, so he's more about
positivity, I'd say than,

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than even the wild these days.

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Cause you know, it's just sort
of, you know, that's, that's kind

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of, you know, Central to kind of
what he's trying to get across.

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I think, you know, positive.

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Travis Bader: I think that's
how you affect change, right?

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I mean, you can go out there and you
can personify a positive lifestyle.

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You can be in the outdoors lifestyle
and you can do these crazy things,

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which some of it's going to be
amped up a little bit for camera.

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Like, I don't know who's going to be
out there drinking bear dung, right.

00:10:05.500 --> 00:10:09.000
But, um, uh, unless
you absolutely need to.

00:10:09.714 --> 00:10:10.344
Um,

00:10:10.484 --> 00:10:13.625
Neil Smith: but, but then you've put the
lens, at least you've learned how to do

00:10:14.204 --> 00:10:16.564
Travis Bader: it and it
gets people talking, right?

00:10:16.584 --> 00:10:18.594
And there's a virality to that,

00:10:19.344 --> 00:10:22.394
Neil Smith: you know, in terms of stories,
you know, that was one, I remember

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there's a big channel here called ITV.

00:10:24.905 --> 00:10:27.784
Yeah, that's like, you know, a
big, you know, when our big free

00:10:27.785 --> 00:10:28.944
to air channels, one of the top.

00:10:29.310 --> 00:10:33.740
By the second, first or second biggest
channel, you know, and I remember being

00:10:33.740 --> 00:10:37.380
told that I'd brought the channel to
a new low By the head of entertainment

00:10:37.380 --> 00:10:39.550
there, which I was very pleased about.

00:10:39.910 --> 00:10:43.849
It's actually the second time I managed
that, that I got that honor twice But this

00:10:43.849 --> 00:10:46.800
was because we had like a big celebrity
show, it's called Mission Survive,

00:10:47.329 --> 00:10:52.490
and they took Celebrities out into the
wild and you know, they got eliminated.

00:10:52.490 --> 00:10:56.749
Yeah, so it's a kind of classic reality
style format It was really really fun,

00:10:57.719 --> 00:11:01.620
and on one of these shows You know, we'd
already done the urine drinking, you know,

00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:05.820
as a kind of, which was brilliant, you
know, of course, you know, uh, but, you

00:11:05.820 --> 00:11:07.420
know, we needed to step it up a level.

00:11:07.809 --> 00:11:11.000
So, you know, we got them to,
to give themselves enemas.

00:11:13.380 --> 00:11:17.890
Which, which, you know, our national was
quite conservative national channel, you

00:11:17.890 --> 00:11:19.810
know, was, which was, you know, really.

00:11:20.270 --> 00:11:23.390
Really something that we managed
to get away with that being told

00:11:23.390 --> 00:11:26.759
or you've brought the channel to
a new low but in a Congratulatory

00:11:26.760 --> 00:11:28.630
way by the head of entertainment.

00:11:28.860 --> 00:11:34.350
It's funny But you know, I said, yeah, but
actually if you were stuck in the sea, you

00:11:34.350 --> 00:11:38.749
know And like you didn't have any fresh
water then, you know, like an enema is

00:11:38.749 --> 00:11:43.280
a great great way to kind of purify Some
of that salt water and keep you alive so

00:11:43.290 --> 00:11:45.445
it could Could keep you alive that tip.

00:11:45.445 --> 00:11:52.394
So what we're providing is a really useful
kind of Educational tool for the viewers I

00:11:52.394 --> 00:11:55.105
Travis Bader: tell you this much the
idea of hydrating through an enema had

00:11:55.115 --> 00:11:59.894
never crossed my mind prior to that
But you know if I ever find myself in

00:11:59.894 --> 00:12:04.465
that situation, maybe it'll be one of
those things that my mind can recall I

00:12:04.465 --> 00:12:09.954
Neil Smith: mean, it is painful,
uh, cause you know, saltwater on

00:12:09.964 --> 00:12:16.094
those, uh, very fine mucus membranes,
uh, is something that is kind of,

00:12:16.094 --> 00:12:17.355
you know, not to be taken lightly.

00:12:17.355 --> 00:12:19.564
I don't know whether you've
ever been a flotation tank.

00:12:19.964 --> 00:12:21.724
Travis Bader: No, no, I haven't done that.

00:12:22.514 --> 00:12:26.785
The idea of a flotation tank to me sounds
fantastic, but the idea that I don't know

00:12:26.785 --> 00:12:31.315
how many other people have been floating
in this, in this bath and doing Lord knows

00:12:31.335 --> 00:12:33.165
what, that, that doesn't appeal to me.

00:12:34.160 --> 00:12:35.300
Neil Smith: Yeah, but you know what?

00:12:35.310 --> 00:12:39.710
One of the things you've often told to
do is kind of, you know, grease around

00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:43.030
the anus Protect it from the salt

00:12:43.030 --> 00:12:43.240
Travis Bader: water.

00:12:43.280 --> 00:12:44.240
I've never heard.

00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:45.089
I didn't know that.

00:12:45.090 --> 00:12:46.490
Okay, good to know

00:12:46.490 --> 00:12:49.859
Neil Smith: I've

00:12:49.860 --> 00:12:51.859
Travis Bader: got I've got ADHD.

00:12:51.889 --> 00:12:53.910
So I tend to flow pretty

00:12:53.910 --> 00:13:00.125
Neil Smith: easily Champion of
neurodiverse Uh, leaders and, uh, you

00:13:00.125 --> 00:13:03.845
know, you know, not just, you know, I've
worked with neurodiverse leaders, but

00:13:04.355 --> 00:13:08.935
you know, neurodiversity in the workplace
in general, you know, and in schools, I

00:13:08.944 --> 00:13:13.234
think, I think this is another subject,
but it's one that's really close to my

00:13:13.234 --> 00:13:18.859
heart, you know, that, yeah, my, my wife,
Just started teaching at a university,

00:13:19.709 --> 00:13:23.599
on it, there was a saying, there was a
kind of question saying do you suffer

00:13:23.599 --> 00:13:28.089
from a disability, and it said what, it
said tick the disability, ADHD, kind of

00:13:28.089 --> 00:13:32.109
dyspraxia, and it's like, those aren't
disabilities, you see what I mean, I

00:13:32.109 --> 00:13:33.989
would argue that ADHD is a superpower.

00:13:34.050 --> 00:13:35.044
In ways, yes.

00:13:35.985 --> 00:13:41.155
Because, you know, for me, obviously at
school, it was chaos because I was chaos.

00:13:41.335 --> 00:13:41.635
Yeah.

00:13:41.645 --> 00:13:45.184
But once I kind of came to
running a big company and I had 15

00:13:45.195 --> 00:13:46.945
things to do at once, no problem.

00:13:47.165 --> 00:13:47.295
Yeah.

00:13:47.295 --> 00:13:48.055
Give me one thing to do.

00:13:48.255 --> 00:13:49.025
I struggle.

00:13:49.934 --> 00:13:51.784
Travis Bader: I can, I can relate to that.

00:13:51.914 --> 00:13:53.705
What was school like for you growing up?

00:13:54.994 --> 00:13:55.624
It was,

00:13:56.225 --> 00:13:58.245
Neil Smith: yeah, it
was difficult, but fun.

00:13:58.645 --> 00:14:02.075
I mean, it was fun for me, not so
much fun for my teachers, I imagine,

00:14:02.635 --> 00:14:04.955
because I pathologically could not.

00:14:06.319 --> 00:14:10.170
You know, I wasn't a bad kid, but because
I had such severe ADHD, I got moved

00:14:10.170 --> 00:14:15.829
up years, down years, like excluded
from classes, subjects, whole subject

00:14:15.829 --> 00:14:20.849
matters, you know, but, um, but you
know, my crowning glory at school, my

00:14:20.849 --> 00:14:24.809
big achievement in my, in my own opinion
is we have these things called O levels,

00:14:24.810 --> 00:14:29.699
which are exams you take first big
set of exams that you take around 16.

00:14:30.965 --> 00:14:34.615
And, uh, I was excluded from
physics as a subject because,

00:14:34.635 --> 00:14:35.755
uh, it was just too disruptive.

00:14:36.425 --> 00:14:38.765
And so I had, they said, you've got
to teach yourself the rest of the

00:14:38.765 --> 00:14:40.185
course, you know, so I, so I did.

00:14:41.345 --> 00:14:45.014
And unfortunately for the school,
uh, I came top of the county.

00:14:45.054 --> 00:14:45.874
Wow!

00:14:47.374 --> 00:14:52.775
And, and the first day, or the first week
of the next year of school, You know,

00:14:52.785 --> 00:14:54.575
they had to present me with an award.

00:14:56.425 --> 00:14:57.045
Travis Bader: See, isn't that

00:14:57.685 --> 00:14:58.145
Neil Smith: funny?

00:14:58.575 --> 00:15:00.325
It's up in the county in physics.

00:15:00.385 --> 00:15:03.774
And of course the whole school knew
that I hadn't been taught by them.

00:15:03.774 --> 00:15:04.134
And so

00:15:04.135 --> 00:15:06.945
Travis Bader: it was kind
of, isn't that funny?

00:15:07.095 --> 00:15:10.794
Now, if a teacher could recognize
and provide somebody like yourself

00:15:10.805 --> 00:15:14.705
with those tools to be able to get
from point A to point B in a way that

00:15:14.705 --> 00:15:17.775
would work for you, man, the teacher
would be wearing all the accolades,

00:15:17.785 --> 00:15:19.495
but instead it's you, it's on you.

00:15:20.860 --> 00:15:21.680
I remember, but that's

00:15:22.220 --> 00:15:23.320
Neil Smith: ADHD in action,

00:15:23.800 --> 00:15:27.270
Travis Bader: you know, you know,
I got, uh, I, I did not fit in

00:15:27.270 --> 00:15:28.910
with school, elementary school.

00:15:28.950 --> 00:15:31.570
I graduated not because of my grades.

00:15:31.570 --> 00:15:34.539
My teacher said I, she didn't want
to see me back in grade seven.

00:15:34.539 --> 00:15:36.519
Again, she figured high
school would sort me out.

00:15:37.130 --> 00:15:40.270
Uh, grades aren't good enough,
but I'm passing you anyways.

00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:41.450
Get into grade eight.

00:15:41.450 --> 00:15:46.070
I remember, well, I mean, just
acting out and the, the common

00:15:46.070 --> 00:15:47.580
behavioral things you do.

00:15:47.950 --> 00:15:48.760
Um, yeah.

00:15:49.390 --> 00:15:53.449
And I remember, uh, we called
him Chuck Morris, uh, Charles

00:15:53.499 --> 00:15:54.999
Morris was the teacher's name.

00:15:55.030 --> 00:16:00.420
And, uh, I somehow was able to get under
his skin so badly by just my disruptive

00:16:00.420 --> 00:16:06.640
behavior that he ran at me and he was,
uh, I'm, I'm, it was, I think six, four.

00:16:06.640 --> 00:16:09.530
By the time I was in grade
seven, I'm six, six, 250.

00:16:09.530 --> 00:16:11.860
Now, actually, when I met Barry,
he's like, he looks at me.

00:16:11.860 --> 00:16:13.240
He's like, they should call you bear.

00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:19.580
Anyway, anyways, um, He ran at me
and grabbed my throat with both

00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:23.140
hands and just choking me out
on the, uh, the table behind me.

00:16:23.150 --> 00:16:26.810
And this is a, um, a local
private school that I was going

00:16:26.810 --> 00:16:29.459
to, and I was like, I got it.

00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:30.670
I won't do anything.

00:16:30.699 --> 00:16:31.700
I won't fight back.

00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:33.319
I'm going to pass the class.

00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.709
That was all that was going
through my head as he's doing.

00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:37.979
Neil Smith: Yeah.

00:16:38.049 --> 00:16:39.789
I teach you to be so violent.

00:16:40.300 --> 00:16:43.885
I mean, you know, our teachers were,
you know, They were terrible, you know,

00:16:43.935 --> 00:16:48.115
like, you know, hitting kids and with
whatever they could find, you know,

00:16:48.205 --> 00:16:50.185
doing nowadays is that's all in the UK.

00:16:50.185 --> 00:16:53.564
That's illegal now, so it became
illegal while I was in school, but

00:16:53.574 --> 00:16:56.384
they, you know, that sort of stuff
that you've just described was.

00:16:56.839 --> 00:16:59.819
Completely normal behavior at one point, I

00:16:59.819 --> 00:17:01.860
Travis Bader: think, I don't know
how normal it was, but it was at

00:17:01.870 --> 00:17:05.949
least accepted to the point that
it was, it was an all boys school.

00:17:05.999 --> 00:17:07.040
And yeah,

00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:07.329
Neil Smith: me too.

00:17:07.369 --> 00:17:07.740
Me too.

00:17:08.260 --> 00:17:08.480
Yeah.

00:17:08.490 --> 00:17:09.509
So it was just accepted.

00:17:09.509 --> 00:17:12.719
Mine was a, well, you know, it was
a public, you know, a free school,

00:17:12.739 --> 00:17:16.260
you didn't need to pay to go there,
but it was, um, selective and it

00:17:16.260 --> 00:17:19.540
was just for boys because, you
know, I was quite academic actually.

00:17:19.550 --> 00:17:23.139
So I used to, that's how I used to get
through things because I was academically

00:17:23.139 --> 00:17:28.185
quite gifted, I guess, you know, I could
get into trouble and they wanted to keep

00:17:28.185 --> 00:17:29.315
me in because my grades were pretty good.

00:17:29.895 --> 00:17:31.695
So I kept the average up.

00:17:31.725 --> 00:17:32.765
Well, I ended up.

00:17:32.765 --> 00:17:35.025
But they were like, if you
bring other people down too

00:17:35.025 --> 00:17:36.225
much, then, then you're out.

00:17:36.455 --> 00:17:36.785
Yeah.

00:17:36.785 --> 00:17:38.164
Travis Bader: Well, I kind of did both.

00:17:38.174 --> 00:17:41.995
It just depended on where, like, I
ended up graduating on the honour roll.

00:17:42.115 --> 00:17:46.445
Uh, but I remember I, I spent a couple
of years at each different high school.

00:17:46.445 --> 00:17:51.685
Cause I kept getting moved around, not
because we moved, but because of the ADHD.

00:17:51.700 --> 00:17:56.270
And, uh, the last high school I was
at was rated worst in the province.

00:17:56.310 --> 00:18:00.979
And, and, uh, and I hated it there, but
I wanted to be on the beach or I wanted

00:18:00.979 --> 00:18:02.350
to be up the mountain snowboarding.

00:18:02.350 --> 00:18:06.490
And so I tell the teachers, can you
tell me what's expected for the week?

00:18:06.520 --> 00:18:08.179
Can you tell me what's
expected for the day?

00:18:08.199 --> 00:18:10.309
I'm going to go across the
street to the university.

00:18:10.309 --> 00:18:11.139
I'll go in the library.

00:18:11.149 --> 00:18:11.840
I'll do my work.

00:18:12.169 --> 00:18:16.550
And I had the rest of the day to myself
after about an hour to two hours of doing

00:18:16.550 --> 00:18:20.439
my own work and I'm graduating with honors
teachers are like, we don't have this

00:18:20.560 --> 00:18:22.399
behavioral problem in our, in our school.

00:18:22.399 --> 00:18:23.419
And he's getting good grades.

00:18:23.780 --> 00:18:24.280
Awesome.

00:18:25.830 --> 00:18:32.749
So, you know, as, as I look at your
transition there, and maybe that makes a

00:18:32.749 --> 00:18:38.740
bit more sense if you talk about the ADHD
and, you know, impulsivity would be one

00:18:38.740 --> 00:18:40.740
of the things that kind of goes with it.

00:18:40.770 --> 00:18:42.419
I'd say optimism as well.

00:18:42.740 --> 00:18:47.655
Um, I find more of a glass
full than a glass empty person.

00:18:47.655 --> 00:18:52.925
And I always know I can achieve what I'm
going to do, uh, whether the ends justify

00:18:52.935 --> 00:18:56.374
the means at the end of it, like all
that effort I put in, it could have been

00:18:56.374 --> 00:18:58.084
a lot easier if I did something else.

00:18:58.460 --> 00:19:04.820
But you left some pretty high
profile, well paying gigs to go

00:19:04.820 --> 00:19:07.320
into the crazy, crazy, crazy.

00:19:07.389 --> 00:19:07.809
Neil Smith: Yeah.

00:19:08.180 --> 00:19:12.759
I mean, what was I thinking if
I knew now what I, what I, you

00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:15.889
know, well, if I knew that what I
know now, I'd never have done it.

00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:16.809
That's not true.

00:19:17.529 --> 00:19:18.139
It's not true.

00:19:18.320 --> 00:19:22.660
But yeah, I had a midlife crisis,
I guess, you know, or, uh, other

00:19:22.660 --> 00:19:26.440
people, you know, I heard of a
theory called second mountain theory.

00:19:26.600 --> 00:19:26.970
Okay.

00:19:26.970 --> 00:19:27.230
Yeah.

00:19:27.270 --> 00:19:27.710
What is that?

00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:32.720
So second mountain theory, so obviously
we've created an app for men, yeah,

00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.890
because the reasons that, you know, we
should discuss why men need their own

00:19:36.989 --> 00:19:40.400
product to help with their mental health
and fitness because, you know, they're,

00:19:40.550 --> 00:19:44.410
they're not catered for, yeah, and
there's a mental health crisis, which

00:19:44.410 --> 00:19:46.289
would be good to kind of dig into a bit.

00:19:46.900 --> 00:19:53.550
But, um, but yeah, so, you know, but
there's this thing called second mountain

00:19:53.550 --> 00:19:59.470
theory, yeah, which is Men tend to empire
build, you know, they protect themselves,

00:19:59.510 --> 00:20:04.220
you know, so in our DNA we want to protect
yeah So ourselves, our family provide.

00:20:04.290 --> 00:20:05.710
Yeah, that's in our DNA.

00:20:05.830 --> 00:20:10.190
Yeah, so we protect and we provide and
we build and we build our Fortresses and

00:20:10.190 --> 00:20:14.269
our careers if you like, you know, which
enable us to protect and provide provide

00:20:14.729 --> 00:20:16.079
and you climb the maps you think, right?

00:20:16.080 --> 00:20:16.989
I'm climbing this career.

00:20:16.989 --> 00:20:18.979
So I'm you know, I'm a man.

00:20:18.979 --> 00:20:19.979
I'm outcome focused.

00:20:19.979 --> 00:20:22.860
I'm gonna get to the top of the mountain
Yeah, so it runs the top of the mountain.

00:20:22.860 --> 00:20:27.000
It gets the top of the mountain and
Then you get to the top of mountain

00:20:27.820 --> 00:20:31.200
And you realize, Oh, I'm at the
top of the mountain now, what next?

00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:32.520
And you see another mountain over there.

00:20:32.520 --> 00:20:34.991
And so I've got, that's the
mountain I've got to climb.

00:20:34.991 --> 00:20:35.800
Second mountain there.

00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:38.390
And basically it's kind of
like, you know, there I was.

00:20:38.530 --> 00:20:42.280
I was kind of like, you know, I
got to the top of my profession.

00:20:42.469 --> 00:20:47.949
You know, I have pretty severe ADHD as
you probably can appreciate Travis more.

00:20:48.009 --> 00:20:50.910
I got to the top of my profession
more by luck than design.

00:20:51.520 --> 00:20:53.970
Travis Bader: Funny, the harder
I work, the luckier I get.

00:20:55.100 --> 00:20:55.830
Neil Smith: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:20:55.830 --> 00:20:57.879
So it's kind of, but you
know, I just did what I liked.

00:20:58.965 --> 00:21:02.075
And that was making TV shows, yeah,
coming up with ideas, going out, filming

00:21:02.075 --> 00:21:03.515
them, directing them, whatever, you know.

00:21:04.005 --> 00:21:08.435
And then, you know, I got pretty good at
that, started selling a few of them, uh,

00:21:08.605 --> 00:21:13.495
and, you know, ended up running, first a
company that made a lot of shows with Bear

00:21:13.495 --> 00:21:19.345
and various other things, and then, um, a
bigger company, um, which made, you know,

00:21:19.345 --> 00:21:21.245
some of the UK's biggest shows by far.

00:21:21.845 --> 00:21:25.475
Um, and yeah, it paid really well.

00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:30.324
And I had, um, you know,
everything done for me and I

00:21:30.324 --> 00:21:31.920
had a big staff and a big team.

00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:34.860
It's very comfortable,
but I was really unhappy.

00:21:34.860 --> 00:21:37.610
I felt unfulfilled and I thought,
okay, well, I've got all these

00:21:37.610 --> 00:21:43.390
skills, um, you know, this ability
to communicate, to take important

00:21:43.450 --> 00:21:45.530
ideas and bring them to audiences.

00:21:45.989 --> 00:21:48.700
You know, I need to do that for good.

00:21:48.740 --> 00:21:50.000
I need to do something good in the world.

00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:53.330
I need to have a purpose,
you know, beyond just.

00:21:53.825 --> 00:21:57.295
Making telly and earning money and
you know that TV was good TV Entertain

00:21:57.295 --> 00:22:01.515
people and the stuff that the adventure
stuff we did was great and I did some

00:22:01.515 --> 00:22:05.385
stuff, you know I did stuff around like
homelessness where I took another survival

00:22:05.385 --> 00:22:07.855
guy Ed Stafford right the 60 days.

00:22:08.764 --> 00:22:10.744
Yeah, that's right And we
did 60 days on the streets.

00:22:10.744 --> 00:22:14.815
Yeah So Ed normally he does a show called
naked and marooned or he's that's where

00:22:14.815 --> 00:22:19.025
he started then that became marooned
on discovery Now he does first man out.

00:22:19.045 --> 00:22:24.040
I think it's cool um And he's, you
know, very authentic survivalist.

00:22:24.040 --> 00:22:26.690
So I said to him, and I just made
a show with him on, on Discovery.

00:22:27.470 --> 00:22:35.290
And I said, look, Ed, you are ex,
ex military, adopted, um, male, and

00:22:35.330 --> 00:22:38.759
have suffered from mental health
problems, which he's publicised.

00:22:39.530 --> 00:22:41.340
All risk factors for
ending up on the streets.

00:22:41.340 --> 00:22:44.379
There's a shocking homeless crisis
going out, going on in London.

00:22:44.650 --> 00:22:48.030
Why don't we just do your show, your
60 days and 60 nights on a desert

00:22:48.030 --> 00:22:49.330
island with nothing but a camera.

00:22:49.660 --> 00:22:51.430
Let's do it rather than
on a desert island.

00:22:51.430 --> 00:22:52.369
We'll do it on the streets of.

00:22:52.935 --> 00:22:57.125
The UK cities over winter we do it over
Christmas You have to spend Christmas

00:22:57.125 --> 00:23:00.925
out there and you'd live on this and
he just totally went for it spent 60

00:23:00.975 --> 00:23:06.035
days fully immersed Surviving on the
streets as I'm this person Yeah, and

00:23:06.045 --> 00:23:09.745
had a call incredible adventures and
that brought a massive audience to

00:23:10.005 --> 00:23:15.105
homelessness because that was actually
the channels highest new rating series

00:23:15.639 --> 00:23:20.050
For two years and remained so Wow for
another three after we after we did it,

00:23:20.050 --> 00:23:24.699
you know And it was about homelessness,
which you think oh god I don't want to be

00:23:24.719 --> 00:23:28.339
battered over the head with some worthy
kind of subject So so I thought okay.

00:23:28.339 --> 00:23:29.189
Well, can I do that?

00:23:29.199 --> 00:23:30.600
Can I do what I do really?

00:23:30.600 --> 00:23:35.760
Well, which is taking important ideas
that may be a bit off putting to

00:23:35.760 --> 00:23:42.040
people But are important You know, and
I'm able to communicate them to big

00:23:42.040 --> 00:23:46.570
audiences and bring those audiences
because I do want that for something

00:23:46.570 --> 00:23:50.860
that's really important to me, you know,
which in my case is, is mental fitness.

00:23:51.890 --> 00:23:55.480
You know, so that, that's, that's
sort of led me to, to leaving.

00:23:55.480 --> 00:24:00.380
And I mean, you know, I've gone on the
true founder's odyssey of going from

00:24:00.530 --> 00:24:03.420
wealthy to skin re mortgaging their house.

00:24:04.155 --> 00:24:09.894
You, you, you know, like my life
has changed completely, you know,

00:24:09.935 --> 00:24:12.924
as a result of a passion project,
a vision, but it's something that I

00:24:12.924 --> 00:24:14.334
felt the world needed and I wanted

00:24:14.334 --> 00:24:14.914
Travis Bader: to put into it.

00:24:14.945 --> 00:24:19.014
What did that unhappiness look
like and how long did it last

00:24:19.014 --> 00:24:19.254
Neil Smith: for?

00:24:19.834 --> 00:24:20.184
Okay.

00:24:20.415 --> 00:24:23.215
So the unhappiness, that's a really,
that's a really interesting question.

00:24:23.424 --> 00:24:29.234
So the unhappiness lasted
about six months, I suppose,

00:24:29.544 --> 00:24:31.284
before I acted on it, I think.

00:24:32.845 --> 00:24:38.784
And what it looked like the thing I
remember is the you know, I'm I I know

00:24:38.785 --> 00:24:43.275
that I'm not motivated I'd love to
have some more money now, but I wasn't

00:24:43.275 --> 00:24:52.054
particularly motivated by money then
and You know, I found myself counting

00:24:52.064 --> 00:24:53.899
how much money I've made every day.

00:24:53.899 --> 00:24:58.814
Mm hmm just to sort of Give me the
purpose for the day and that's when

00:24:58.814 --> 00:25:02.084
I knew that this is this is just not
right Just thinking how much money if

00:25:02.084 --> 00:25:07.954
I had to pay It's like and you know
the people I work with were great the

00:25:07.955 --> 00:25:12.440
programs we working with great, but just
needed Strike out, you know, I needed,

00:25:12.450 --> 00:25:17.160
there was a, I, I, there was a bigger,
I felt, you know, I just called to do

00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:19.699
something else, you know, whatever you
want to call it, you know, the second

00:25:19.699 --> 00:25:23.909
mountain theory, whatever it is, you
know, I had to do something else.

00:25:24.479 --> 00:25:24.959
Um,

00:25:25.080 --> 00:25:28.259
Travis Bader: yeah, you know, I
look at money as a motivator and

00:25:28.260 --> 00:25:32.300
it's something that I've always
lived by, you know, I'm comfortable

00:25:32.300 --> 00:25:35.020
having nothing or next to nothing.

00:25:35.110 --> 00:25:36.180
That's how I grew up.

00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:38.020
Yeah, me too.

00:25:38.070 --> 00:25:38.280
Right.

00:25:38.290 --> 00:25:39.660
A lot, a lot of people like that.

00:25:40.250 --> 00:25:43.540
I have a little bit of something now
because I've, I've built something,

00:25:43.540 --> 00:25:47.510
but if I lost that all tomorrow,
okay, I know I've got the ability

00:25:47.510 --> 00:25:49.129
and talents to be able to rebuild it.

00:25:49.129 --> 00:25:54.540
But if I make money, my driving factor,
I'm always going to be chasing the money.

00:25:54.629 --> 00:25:56.439
But if I make the.

00:25:56.965 --> 00:25:59.534
Project or the endeavor, whatever
it is that I'm passionate

00:25:59.534 --> 00:26:00.784
about my driving factor.

00:26:00.784 --> 00:26:04.645
I find that money will be a natural by
product of my hard work and my efforts.

00:26:05.065 --> 00:26:10.345
And sometimes the end doesn't justify
the means from a financial basis,

00:26:10.644 --> 00:26:16.415
but from a, uh, soul nourishing
aspect, I'm doing what I love and the

00:26:16.425 --> 00:26:18.425
end absolutely justifies it means.

00:26:18.705 --> 00:26:22.305
And whenever I find myself,
cause maybe it's an ADHD thing,

00:26:22.805 --> 00:26:23.864
but I like to build something.

00:26:23.865 --> 00:26:25.305
I like to create something, but.

00:26:25.635 --> 00:26:30.425
The maintenance of something over
and over, come in, come out is, um,

00:26:31.085 --> 00:26:34.664
the routine of the monotony of that
can be a difficult thing for me.

00:26:34.924 --> 00:26:37.225
So I keep looking at
how I can keep growing.

00:26:37.905 --> 00:26:41.955
Um, I think that in itself, always
looking how you can grow, how you can

00:26:41.955 --> 00:26:43.945
grow, what you can do next can be tiring.

00:26:43.994 --> 00:26:44.765
Are you like that?

00:26:45.905 --> 00:26:46.175
Neil Smith: Yeah.

00:26:46.184 --> 00:26:48.014
So my, what am I got?

00:26:48.055 --> 00:26:53.264
So the, so one of the things that I did
at my last company was, um, you know,

00:26:53.375 --> 00:26:56.844
they, we worked with kind of, you know,
I was on like a global leaders kind of.

00:26:58.675 --> 00:27:01.555
And they get you to
create a personal purpose.

00:27:01.555 --> 00:27:06.015
So my personal purpose, my dream,
the thing that I wanted to do, was

00:27:06.015 --> 00:27:08.144
inspire wonder, greatness, and joy.

00:27:08.175 --> 00:27:09.296
That was my kind of purpose.

00:27:09.296 --> 00:27:09.945
I like that.

00:27:09.945 --> 00:27:10.554
That's what I love doing.

00:27:10.555 --> 00:27:16.534
So I love inspiring, you know, wonder,
in, you know, the shows that we made,

00:27:16.835 --> 00:27:20.335
so people can lose themselves in it,
and joy, you know, and greatness.

00:27:20.524 --> 00:27:23.415
I'd say, you know, in my team, you
know, I love to nurture a team.

00:27:24.585 --> 00:27:27.225
Uh, and, you know, empower
them to, you know, grow.

00:27:27.230 --> 00:27:27.435
Mm-Hmm.

00:27:28.304 --> 00:27:35.715
. But my biggest kind of belief is was that
learning and growth are non-negotiable.

00:27:35.805 --> 00:27:35.925
Mm-Hmm.

00:27:36.255 --> 00:27:38.685
. So for me, learning and
growth and non-negotiable.

00:27:38.685 --> 00:27:38.955
Yeah.

00:27:39.215 --> 00:27:44.455
Without which I sort of die
inside I guess a little bit.

00:27:44.455 --> 00:27:44.545
Mm-Hmm.

00:27:45.085 --> 00:27:49.055
, you know, and, um, so I think that
was what was going on with me.

00:27:49.055 --> 00:27:49.295
You know?

00:27:49.295 --> 00:27:50.825
I just felt I wasn't learning and growing.

00:27:50.975 --> 00:27:51.245
Yep.

00:27:51.485 --> 00:27:52.745
So now, oh.

00:27:53.115 --> 00:27:57.725
Wow, I got what I wish for, you
know, uh, you know, as you say, you

00:27:57.725 --> 00:28:00.895
know, as a startup entrepreneur,
I'm all learning and growing.

00:28:01.035 --> 00:28:02.975
There's nothing else but
learning and growing.

00:28:02.975 --> 00:28:03.225
Yeah.

00:28:03.914 --> 00:28:06.514
Um, so it's kind of like, be
careful what you wish for.

00:28:06.905 --> 00:28:15.284
But, um, but, um, but yeah, I mean,
what are we here for arguably other

00:28:15.284 --> 00:28:19.305
than to learn and grow, you know, it's
kind of like, it's, it seems to me

00:28:19.305 --> 00:28:20.855
like a real kind of guiding principle.

00:28:21.055 --> 00:28:23.555
And in fact, we've just been
working on our values for a company.

00:28:23.555 --> 00:28:23.595
And.

00:28:23.975 --> 00:28:29.575
And grow or growth or growing and quite
settled in, but growth is a, is one of

00:28:29.575 --> 00:28:34.245
our principles because we have to, we
have, we all feel that we have to grow as

00:28:34.245 --> 00:28:35.905
people and we need our company to grow,

00:28:36.004 --> 00:28:36.155
to

00:28:36.155 --> 00:28:36.954
Travis Bader: survive as well.

00:28:36.974 --> 00:28:40.134
You know, there's, there's an interesting
dichotomy there as well, because for

00:28:40.134 --> 00:28:45.464
people who want to grow, who want to
self improve, um, it's, it's sort of

00:28:45.464 --> 00:28:49.525
like that old one with a Rockefeller and
a reporter asked him, like, you've got

00:28:49.525 --> 00:28:52.045
so much money, like how much is enough?

00:28:52.075 --> 00:28:52.545
And he says.

00:28:52.610 --> 00:28:56.189
Just 1 more, same thing for
these people who want to grow.

00:28:56.229 --> 00:28:57.769
Oh, just a bit more, just a bit more.

00:28:59.149 --> 00:29:03.679
And there's an argument to be made
for how do we enjoy what we have now?

00:29:03.760 --> 00:29:07.989
How do we come back and say, um,
I want to grow, but I'm going to

00:29:07.999 --> 00:29:10.899
take a break for a little bit and
say, this is my enjoyment time.

00:29:11.860 --> 00:29:12.969
Neil Smith: Yeah, absolutely.

00:29:12.969 --> 00:29:13.199
Yeah.

00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:14.889
So growth shouldn't be your right.

00:29:14.910 --> 00:29:17.639
Cause growth, when it's happening
all the time, it's painful.

00:29:18.149 --> 00:29:18.449
Yeah.

00:29:18.929 --> 00:29:20.409
Nature teaches us that doesn't it?

00:29:20.429 --> 00:29:21.914
Growing pains that kids have.

00:29:23.355 --> 00:29:24.515
Which is when they're growing too fast.

00:29:25.185 --> 00:29:28.745
Yeah, like when you start
starting up a new business.

00:29:28.764 --> 00:29:31.264
Yes That's that's painful growth.

00:29:31.385 --> 00:29:32.544
Yeah, it's enjoyable.

00:29:32.544 --> 00:29:33.175
I'm loving it.

00:29:33.935 --> 00:29:39.625
Um, But you know, there's there's
not much balance at the moment.

00:29:40.024 --> 00:29:40.514
You see what I mean?

00:29:40.515 --> 00:29:44.055
And that balance is it is important
Yeah, so you want to grow and you want

00:29:44.055 --> 00:29:46.195
to learn and you want to enjoy don't you?

00:29:46.195 --> 00:29:51.940
Yeah, that's the kind of you know, I
did ideally you want to You want to grow

00:29:51.940 --> 00:29:56.290
a bit, learn a bit and then enjoy the
things you've grown into and learn about,

00:29:56.790 --> 00:29:57.130
Travis Bader: I guess.

00:29:57.910 --> 00:30:00.280
And I guess that's the tough
part with people who are like

00:30:00.600 --> 00:30:02.080
looking at self betterment.

00:30:02.710 --> 00:30:03.780
Well, yeah, that's right.

00:30:03.810 --> 00:30:04.790
To what level?

00:30:05.290 --> 00:30:06.610
Like, and yeah, that's interesting.

00:30:07.009 --> 00:30:09.009
Am I comparing myself
against other people?

00:30:09.009 --> 00:30:11.880
Or am I comparing myself
against what I was yesterday?

00:30:11.900 --> 00:30:14.880
And when am I better in
these different areas?

00:30:15.740 --> 00:30:16.580
Neil Smith: Yeah, absolutely.

00:30:16.590 --> 00:30:20.750
So that's interesting because when we
were looking at this product, so our

00:30:20.750 --> 00:30:26.155
product basically There's a really
simple toolkit for men, because we saw

00:30:26.155 --> 00:30:27.625
that men were not being catered for.

00:30:28.745 --> 00:30:34.534
But um, you know, in the UK and similar
in the US, I'm not sure about Canada,

00:30:35.025 --> 00:30:39.125
suicide is the biggest killer of men under
50 now, which is a shocking statistic.

00:30:40.374 --> 00:30:44.294
So like 80 percent now of all
suicides are male versus female.

00:30:46.445 --> 00:30:51.720
And then, I've got all these tools, like
meditation, breath work, and Self hypnosis

00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:58.180
that I've been using for years, but I
noticed that you know, most of my mates

00:30:58.180 --> 00:31:00.780
weren't using them Yes, I talked to them
about and they kind of stare into their

00:31:00.790 --> 00:31:03.550
pints and want to know what time the
football's on You know, it's kind of like

00:31:03.959 --> 00:31:06.499
taboo subject and that's my expertise.

00:31:06.499 --> 00:31:08.649
Yeah, like the homeless thing
Yeah, so it's kind of like

00:31:08.689 --> 00:31:11.500
taking taboo subjects and blowing
them up making them acceptable.

00:31:11.510 --> 00:31:18.540
So for me, it's about Making mental
fitness if you like or growth or

00:31:18.540 --> 00:31:23.200
whatever you want to call it, you know
that betterment accessible to everyone

00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:27.730
because what some of the things that
I had observed was there's a lot of

00:31:27.730 --> 00:31:31.560
information out there but not much
transformation yeah so there's a lot

00:31:31.560 --> 00:31:38.789
of information from it you know so like
you know whatever podcast you know the

00:31:38.789 --> 00:31:43.860
Rogans or the Hoopermans or you know great
podcasts you know loads of information

00:31:43.860 --> 00:31:48.475
but my wife was like I remember my
wife saying to me who doesn't Oh, yeah.

00:31:48.475 --> 00:31:52.575
I've just said this podcast and this
guy's saying that the key to healthy

00:31:52.575 --> 00:31:55.785
living is 17 different colors of
vegetables every day or whatever.

00:31:56.455 --> 00:31:59.684
But last week you had the podcast and he
said that it was intermittent fasting.

00:31:59.735 --> 00:32:01.264
Right, right, right, right.

00:32:01.650 --> 00:32:02.880
There's so much information.

00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.190
Yeah.

00:32:03.560 --> 00:32:05.140
And there's not much transformation.

00:32:05.140 --> 00:32:05.300
Yeah.

00:32:05.300 --> 00:32:10.169
So what I wanted to do is make because
for a lot of people that information

00:32:10.169 --> 00:32:13.179
is good as it is for me It's gonna
be confusing and difficult to follow.

00:32:13.620 --> 00:32:17.009
Yeah, so much of it out there and
it's an industry I can ensure it

00:32:17.010 --> 00:32:20.650
is You know, it's the manosphere or
whatever you want to call it is is

00:32:20.650 --> 00:32:23.830
an industry that needs content to
feed it Well, there's a journalist.

00:32:23.830 --> 00:32:26.900
I understand that, you know, so
it's not so much about the truth.

00:32:26.930 --> 00:32:32.110
It's about What's engaging and what will
sell, you know, it's going to get me

00:32:32.110 --> 00:32:36.380
bums on seats or list ears on headphones
or whatever we call it these days.

00:32:37.210 --> 00:32:43.140
Um, you know, so it's kind of, um, you
know, but, but how do we just give people

00:32:43.140 --> 00:32:47.070
some tools that they can just use at their
own pace and can transform them and they

00:32:47.070 --> 00:32:50.539
don't need to think too much about it,
you know, like a simple breath work, being

00:32:50.539 --> 00:32:54.469
able to control your breath, according
to when you want to sleep or you want

00:32:54.469 --> 00:32:56.599
some energy in the morning or you want.

00:32:56.660 --> 00:33:01.110
Uh, you know, you want to de stress.

00:33:02.420 --> 00:33:03.860
Yeah, yeah, just relax.

00:33:03.860 --> 00:33:07.140
Yeah, those are really transformational
tools that anybody can use.

00:33:07.250 --> 00:33:08.370
Yeah, they're really accessible.

00:33:08.430 --> 00:33:15.739
Yeah, so it's not about striving
for kind of some Unreachable goal of

00:33:15.999 --> 00:33:23.199
perfection, you know, I'm no way in
that camp, you know, like I don't go to

00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:26.220
the gym I try to keep fit, but I'm not
kind of you know, I'm like, you know

00:33:26.310 --> 00:33:29.050
equally I'm not very good at meditation
even though I've been doing it since

00:33:29.050 --> 00:33:32.619
I was like 11 12 years old Yeah, but I
still get the benefits of it And if we

00:33:32.620 --> 00:33:36.885
can just share those tools with people
Then they can also benefit from them.

00:33:36.895 --> 00:33:42.075
So I think, you know, that's something
that thing about growth and comparing,

00:33:42.405 --> 00:33:46.145
you know, it does, we don't all
need to be David Goggins is what I

00:33:46.195 --> 00:33:51.825
think I'm saying, you know, uh, we
just all need to be, would it all

00:33:51.834 --> 00:33:53.994
benefit from being a bit better?

00:33:54.915 --> 00:33:59.455
Yeah, so having slightly better physical
health or slightly better mental health

00:33:59.495 --> 00:34:02.695
or mental fitness and, and, you know,
so it's just a progression that you go

00:34:02.695 --> 00:34:06.105
on a journey that you go on at your own
pace, I think, you know, rather than

00:34:06.105 --> 00:34:08.175
saying, I've got to be here in six weeks.

00:34:08.244 --> 00:34:10.694
Travis Bader: Look, it's interesting,
like, you know, you're talking

00:34:10.694 --> 00:34:15.825
about that second mountain and, uh,
Alan Watts, he's a lot of people

00:34:15.825 --> 00:34:17.895
heard of him, philosopher, um.

00:34:18.670 --> 00:34:22.950
Uh, I mean, if you look at his life,
he had a plethora of problems as well.

00:34:23.010 --> 00:34:27.170
I mean, he, but he had some good things
that, uh, uh, that he could share

00:34:27.170 --> 00:34:30.369
with people from his studies and his
learnings, but he has this neat one.

00:34:30.370 --> 00:34:34.700
I think the afterschool SKOOL, they
do the little scribble drawings

00:34:34.700 --> 00:34:38.854
and voiceovers of people and, um,
always find those fun because it's.

00:34:39.205 --> 00:34:44.285
Engaging for an ADHD brain, but he, it's
got Alan Watts talking, talking about, you

00:34:44.285 --> 00:34:45.745
Neil Smith: know, I'm familiar with it.

00:34:45.745 --> 00:34:46.005
Yeah.

00:34:46.045 --> 00:34:48.445
Travis Bader: You got all
of these, uh, promises.

00:34:48.445 --> 00:34:51.515
Oh, you pay attention, you do
your homework, you'll graduate,

00:34:51.515 --> 00:34:52.875
you'll get top of the class, right?

00:34:53.145 --> 00:34:55.894
You go to high school, you get into
a good university, get a university,

00:34:55.894 --> 00:34:59.415
get a good job, and you fed all of
these promises and it's up there.

00:34:59.525 --> 00:35:00.185
Keep going.

00:35:00.215 --> 00:35:00.475
Right.

00:35:00.485 --> 00:35:01.255
There's that mountain.

00:35:01.255 --> 00:35:02.065
You get to the peak.

00:35:02.165 --> 00:35:05.254
And when you get to the peak, you
sit there and you say, is that it?

00:35:05.635 --> 00:35:05.965
Right.

00:35:05.985 --> 00:35:08.315
I've been fed this story this entire time.

00:35:08.325 --> 00:35:08.625
That's right.

00:35:08.625 --> 00:35:09.285
Is that it?

00:35:09.705 --> 00:35:14.085
And he says, you get there and you realize
that the whole thing was a musical event.

00:35:14.135 --> 00:35:16.425
You're supposed to be singing
and dancing along the way and

00:35:16.425 --> 00:35:18.815
engaging and part of the process.

00:35:18.834 --> 00:35:23.115
So that, that's, that made
me think of that Alan Watts.

00:35:23.585 --> 00:35:28.755
Um, speech, but that second mountain
thing, you've been vocal about the

00:35:28.755 --> 00:35:32.575
fact that I think it was in your
twenties, uh, you suffered depression.

00:35:33.475 --> 00:35:33.815
Yeah.

00:35:33.925 --> 00:35:36.045
Was that for similar reasons?

00:35:36.055 --> 00:35:40.374
You weren't finding the, um, uh,
the purpose inspiring people or

00:35:40.375 --> 00:35:41.905
what did that, what was that about?

00:35:41.914 --> 00:35:42.534
You know what

00:35:42.994 --> 00:35:49.465
Neil Smith: I don't actually know might
be, and there's a reason I don't know.

00:35:49.465 --> 00:35:50.145
It's because I never.

00:35:51.200 --> 00:35:56.990
You know, I never got it probably treated
by a doctor, I suppose, you know, so, you

00:35:56.990 --> 00:36:02.840
know, I never delved into that side of
things or by a talk therapist or whatever,

00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:05.770
you know, I never took medication for it.

00:36:06.170 --> 00:36:09.750
So my experience with
depression is it came along.

00:36:10.810 --> 00:36:15.060
Yeah, like when I was in my early
20s, I guess, you know, I think

00:36:15.060 --> 00:36:17.240
I was just finished university.

00:36:17.890 --> 00:36:19.500
I was still living near the university.

00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:21.929
My, my doctor was.

00:36:22.395 --> 00:36:24.805
The university, you know, the
university medical practice

00:36:27.825 --> 00:36:32.195
and, and, and, you know, you know,
when you've got depression, you know,

00:36:33.125 --> 00:36:34.534
there's, there's all the signs, yeah.

00:36:34.535 --> 00:36:35.335
So I'm depressed.

00:36:35.675 --> 00:36:35.774
Yeah.

00:36:35.774 --> 00:36:36.354
So here I am.

00:36:36.354 --> 00:36:39.205
I don't know what's caused it, but
you know, cause I was at the start of

00:36:39.224 --> 00:36:43.794
my life, you know, then I was at the
start of my career and I was able to

00:36:44.214 --> 00:36:47.885
progress my career along alongside
having depression for a long time.

00:36:47.885 --> 00:36:49.035
I did really well.

00:36:49.035 --> 00:36:52.065
I, you know, I started as a journalist
and then went into television

00:36:52.065 --> 00:36:53.604
and I was always successful.

00:36:54.615 --> 00:36:55.544
But I was kind of plagued.

00:36:55.790 --> 00:37:04.130
Uh, uh, and I went to see, um, you
know, so it took all the current, like,

00:37:04.500 --> 00:37:07.100
like many or potentially most men.

00:37:07.629 --> 00:37:07.919
Yeah.

00:37:08.120 --> 00:37:10.190
I didn't tell anybody about
it apart from my girlfriend.

00:37:10.759 --> 00:37:10.779
Yeah.

00:37:11.089 --> 00:37:14.749
And I think this is part of, you know,
the, the thing that we're trying to

00:37:14.749 --> 00:37:19.739
tackle is just this, the men, you know,
there's a big message around mental

00:37:19.739 --> 00:37:21.889
health for men that men don't talk.

00:37:22.209 --> 00:37:22.299
Yeah.

00:37:22.420 --> 00:37:23.460
And then need to talk.

00:37:23.540 --> 00:37:25.220
Yeah, and I agree.

00:37:25.250 --> 00:37:28.830
That's a really, really important
thing for men to do to talk about their

00:37:28.830 --> 00:37:30.550
mental health and how they're feeling.

00:37:30.550 --> 00:37:35.870
Yeah, because some men will very sadly
take their problems to the grave.

00:37:37.289 --> 00:37:42.010
So, you know, sadly, I had an example of
it recently where a friend of mine, one of

00:37:42.010 --> 00:37:44.589
his very good friends, took his own life.

00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:50.480
Um, and you know, around the
time that he was doing it, you

00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:52.120
know, like a few minutes before.

00:37:52.605 --> 00:37:56.635
He was texting everyone on Whatsapp, or
Whatsapping everybody and taking part

00:37:56.635 --> 00:37:59.445
in the banter kind of, do you know what
I mean, sending the memes and stuff.

00:37:59.445 --> 00:38:02.125
Yeah, so he took it that far, he
couldn't speak, and so there's a

00:38:02.125 --> 00:38:06.764
real imperative for men to speak
about their mental health, yeah.

00:38:07.504 --> 00:38:12.645
However, that doesn't, telling men
to speak doesn't change behavior.

00:38:13.115 --> 00:38:17.065
Yeah, very quickly, yeah, maybe over a
long period of time, but you know, we

00:38:17.065 --> 00:38:19.385
can, you know, it's difficult, you know.

00:38:19.825 --> 00:38:22.375
And so what we're trying to do
with metal is give people tools.

00:38:23.050 --> 00:38:26.370
That can help improve their mental health
without them needing to talk to people

00:38:26.370 --> 00:38:29.280
So that is kind of one of the things
that were really key to the app, you

00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:34.530
know So here are some tools that don't
require you To talk about your mental

00:38:34.530 --> 00:38:37.819
health with anybody because even though
i'm sitting here talking about mental

00:38:37.820 --> 00:38:40.340
health with you Yeah on a podcast.

00:38:41.359 --> 00:38:43.990
I still don't want to talk To my
mates about how I'm feeling on

00:38:43.990 --> 00:38:46.850
a Friday night when I'm down the
park, I just, I just, I think

00:38:46.850 --> 00:38:50.240
Travis Bader: a lot of people will
listen to podcasts so they can have these

00:38:50.240 --> 00:38:53.640
conversations, at least listen to the
conversation without having to have that

00:38:53.640 --> 00:38:55.909
difficult conversation and you've seen,

00:38:55.999 --> 00:38:59.729
Neil Smith: so go on, so, you know,
just, just to go back to that kind of not

00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:03.770
being able to talk, just to get back to
your, your question about depression, you

00:39:03.770 --> 00:39:06.150
know, so I've experienced it for myself.

00:39:06.460 --> 00:39:09.550
I was unable to talk to anybody
about it because I was depressed.

00:39:10.060 --> 00:39:10.330
Yeah.

00:39:10.530 --> 00:39:15.500
And so eventually somehow I got the
confidence, um, to go to the doctors.

00:39:15.890 --> 00:39:23.069
Um, as my colleague, uh, um, and,
you know, took all the strength

00:39:23.070 --> 00:39:26.870
I had to, to make, to, to go and
see a doctor and tell, tell them.

00:39:26.950 --> 00:39:30.210
And so, you know, all these, all the
strength I had and I went to see a

00:39:30.210 --> 00:39:37.460
doctor and, and, you know, I said, I
think I've got depression and he said.

00:39:38.030 --> 00:39:39.110
I'm just going to stop you there.

00:39:40.110 --> 00:39:42.550
Depression is over the road
in occupational therapy.

00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:47.090
So you just need to go over there
and make an appointment with them.

00:39:48.629 --> 00:39:53.079
And of course, so I got
up, completely destroyed.

00:39:53.080 --> 00:39:57.490
And I didn't go over the
road and make an appointment.

00:39:58.020 --> 00:39:59.280
I went to the pub and I got drunk.

00:39:59.930 --> 00:40:05.020
And I continued ignoring you know,
what needed to be dealt with for

00:40:05.020 --> 00:40:07.330
the next, best part, 10 years.

00:40:07.730 --> 00:40:08.080
To be honest.

00:40:08.650 --> 00:40:12.060
So that's kind of a, I think
that's an example of, you

00:40:12.060 --> 00:40:14.830
know, men don't like talking.

00:40:15.530 --> 00:40:18.370
Let's try and improve.

00:40:18.610 --> 00:40:21.580
Let's try and get them better
at it, but it will take time.

00:40:21.700 --> 00:40:24.160
And in the meantime, what
else can we do to help them?

00:40:24.319 --> 00:40:25.690
You know, give them some practical tools.

00:40:26.149 --> 00:40:28.070
Yeah, so that's I guess what
we're trying to do here.

00:40:28.490 --> 00:40:31.080
But that's I guess how that
depression fit into my life.

00:40:31.340 --> 00:40:34.270
And also, I ended up being cured
of it through clinical hypnotism,

00:40:34.449 --> 00:40:35.429
which is one of the things

00:40:35.430 --> 00:40:36.020
Travis Bader: that we have on the app.

00:40:36.170 --> 00:40:36.720
Yeah, you do.

00:40:36.940 --> 00:40:39.040
You got a pretty famous
hypnotist on the app there.

00:40:39.610 --> 00:40:40.330
Neil Smith: Yeah, that's right.

00:40:40.330 --> 00:40:40.860
Paul McKenna.

00:40:40.860 --> 00:40:43.640
Yeah, who's kind of the
world's most famous hypnotist.

00:40:43.820 --> 00:40:47.599
And again, you know, he, you know,
he kind of, you know, came on board.

00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:51.360
I said to him, look, Paul, we got this
app, there's all this stuff out there.

00:40:52.340 --> 00:40:55.400
You know, which is generalist, but
all the science shows because we're

00:40:55.400 --> 00:41:01.070
working with universities and charities
that men need their own specific,

00:41:02.020 --> 00:41:06.219
gender specific interventions, you
know, the best outcomes, you know,

00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:09.170
men respond best to things that are
just for men because they feel safe.

00:41:09.170 --> 00:41:09.250
Yeah.

00:41:09.550 --> 00:41:12.690
So the reason men don't want to talk
is because they feel vulnerable.

00:41:12.930 --> 00:41:15.650
Men, we're taught, we're trained
not to feel vulnerable because

00:41:15.650 --> 00:41:18.350
we're always strong, the provider,
the hunter, whatever you want.

00:41:18.870 --> 00:41:21.070
Bullet that archetype can't be vulnerable.

00:41:21.070 --> 00:41:26.170
Yeah, so why would we admit to somebody
that our mental health is in a poor place?

00:41:26.170 --> 00:41:30.790
Yeah, so it's kind of like, you know,
we need So many so what we've tried to

00:41:30.849 --> 00:41:35.210
do with metal is make it a safe place
So it's just for men, you know, so they

00:41:35.210 --> 00:41:36.670
feel there's, there's no judgment there.

00:41:36.680 --> 00:41:39.470
They can't say it's too, so the
objections to using a lot of things

00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:42.280
that are on the market, some of the
other apps that are on the market, which

00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:45.529
might contain similar things, might
contain meditation and breath work and

00:41:45.529 --> 00:41:50.680
hypnosis and stuff, is that, you know,
the three objections that we found.

00:41:51.195 --> 00:41:54.855
On interviewing a couple hundred
men with two female, two hippie ish,

00:41:54.855 --> 00:41:55.955
and there's nothing wrong with me.

00:41:56.495 --> 00:41:59.975
Yep, so two female makes men feel
vulnerable, yeah, so it's just

00:41:59.975 --> 00:42:01.264
for men, takes that one away.

00:42:02.115 --> 00:42:04.574
Two hippie ish makes men feel
vulnerable, I don't want to

00:42:04.575 --> 00:42:05.394
be associated with that stuff.

00:42:05.995 --> 00:42:08.184
Okay, well we're completely
straight, talking in science

00:42:08.184 --> 00:42:09.885
back, takes that objection away.

00:42:10.075 --> 00:42:12.945
Third thing, third objection,
there's nothing wrong with me.

00:42:13.235 --> 00:42:15.555
Men don't want to talk, admit that
there's anything wrong with them.

00:42:15.705 --> 00:42:17.715
Well, we're not saying there
is, that's why we have a mental

00:42:17.715 --> 00:42:18.585
fitness, not mental health.

00:42:21.060 --> 00:42:23.880
You know, I said to Paul, look,
we're doing this app, there's

00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:24.910
nothing out there for men.

00:42:26.250 --> 00:42:29.250
You know, we want to change the
world and give them just great

00:42:29.250 --> 00:42:30.910
content that can change their state.

00:42:31.030 --> 00:42:35.360
And Paul has written books on, you
know, how to beat anxiety and, um,

00:42:35.590 --> 00:42:37.760
you know, how to be more successful.

00:42:38.230 --> 00:42:42.990
Uh, Change Your Life in Seven Days was a
book that I Read and listened to of his,

00:42:42.990 --> 00:42:48.800
which did change my life to me a little
longer than seven days, but, uh, but, you

00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:50.870
know, create, get me incredible tools.

00:42:51.390 --> 00:42:54.380
And so can we tell, tailor them for men?

00:42:54.389 --> 00:42:56.330
Can we kind of, you
know, build them for men?

00:42:56.389 --> 00:42:57.079
And he's like, absolutely.

00:42:57.129 --> 00:42:58.464
And he came on board and that was just.

00:42:59.215 --> 00:42:59.355
Well,

00:42:59.355 --> 00:43:01.595
Travis Bader: there's a bunch of things
I'd like to unpack and what you're saying

00:43:01.595 --> 00:43:05.595
there, uh, one thing, if I work my way
backwards, I was talking with a friend

00:43:05.595 --> 00:43:11.174
of mine, he's actually British army
sergeant and, uh, talking generally about

00:43:11.795 --> 00:43:17.545
the app and you and sort of what you're
endeavoring to do, he says, Uh, we, as

00:43:17.545 --> 00:43:21.365
men have been conditioned to suppress
our emotions, especially in the military.

00:43:21.375 --> 00:43:25.025
You can't process events and
incidents if you are suppressing

00:43:25.025 --> 00:43:26.275
your emotions and feelings.

00:43:26.825 --> 00:43:31.135
And, you know, the, the other thing
I'll read out here, because you

00:43:31.635 --> 00:43:34.614
have developed in that specific
for men, and you talk about, you

00:43:34.615 --> 00:43:36.885
know, 80 percent male versus female.

00:43:37.295 --> 00:43:41.930
And I tried doing some research, uh,
On this and get actual numbers and

00:43:41.930 --> 00:43:49.149
they don't keep really good records
of, uh, suicide and these percentages

00:43:49.160 --> 00:43:51.360
in a way that's, um, that makes sense.

00:43:51.370 --> 00:43:58.620
Like for example, I don't see a
chronic liver failure from, uh, just.

00:43:59.200 --> 00:44:04.170
Alcoholism being slotted into the
suicide list or opiate crisis and

00:44:04.170 --> 00:44:09.720
fentanyl overdoses, but all of these
things fit into mental health and,

00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:12.320
uh, And the deaths that happen there.

00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:15.940
So, and, and, you know, the 80
percent for men versus women, is that

00:44:15.940 --> 00:44:19.839
because, uh, there's more men that
are committing suicide or is that

00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:25.019
because men typically will choose a
more final solution than, than women,

00:44:25.019 --> 00:44:26.719
women typically will use pills.

00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:27.829
Men will use firearms.

00:44:27.829 --> 00:44:28.039
I mean,

00:44:28.040 --> 00:44:32.399
Neil Smith: statistically speaking, yeah,
I mean, what I'd say is I'm not an expert.

00:44:32.769 --> 00:44:34.549
This is not my area of expertise.

00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:38.770
So I don't want to kind of, you know,
really say definitively, but some of

00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:43.220
the things we've heard are, you know,
A, men don't, you know, the thing that

00:44:43.230 --> 00:44:46.350
we discussed, men don't talk, they
suppress their emotions, therefore they

00:44:46.350 --> 00:44:49.930
will bottle them up until they can't
cope, yeah, so that's one way, women

00:44:49.930 --> 00:44:54.110
are much more likely to talk to their
friends, you know, so like, just, what

00:44:54.110 --> 00:44:57.419
I can do is give you examples from my
own life, so, you know, I go out with

00:44:57.430 --> 00:45:00.849
my best mate, one of the people I had
in mind when building this app, because

00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:04.430
you know, he's physically fit, mental
health could do with some improvement,

00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:06.520
you know, but he needs to feel safe.

00:45:07.245 --> 00:45:07.725
To use it.

00:45:07.725 --> 00:45:12.255
Now he's using this app, but, um,
but you know, I go out, him, have

00:45:12.260 --> 00:45:17.380
a night out, I come back, my wife
says, oh, how are, how are, how

00:45:17.380 --> 00:45:18.875
are, you know, how are his family?

00:45:19.325 --> 00:45:19.775
I'm like, oh.

00:45:20.615 --> 00:45:21.115
I don't know.

00:45:21.115 --> 00:45:21.844
I did not.

00:45:21.845 --> 00:45:22.315
I didn't ask.

00:45:23.145 --> 00:45:23.565
They hadn't

00:45:23.565 --> 00:45:23.905
Travis Bader: come up.

00:45:23.945 --> 00:45:25.208
We're guys, that's not how we

00:45:25.208 --> 00:45:25.601
Neil Smith: interact.

00:45:25.601 --> 00:45:27.345
We had a few drinks, we had some banter.

00:45:27.345 --> 00:45:30.395
It's like, how could it, but
you've just been with him.

00:45:30.404 --> 00:45:34.085
You know, like, it's
gonna, she can't compute.

00:45:34.154 --> 00:45:35.355
It just didn't come up.

00:45:35.355 --> 00:45:37.805
Sorry, I forgot to ask
about his wife and kids.

00:45:37.805 --> 00:45:38.184
I'm sorry.

00:45:38.184 --> 00:45:39.624
It's just, you know, we were
out having a few drinks.

00:45:39.625 --> 00:45:44.295
We had a really good night and, you know,
that's, but that's, that's quite typical.

00:45:44.375 --> 00:45:45.895
You know, so men and women are different.

00:45:46.605 --> 00:45:49.235
And, you know, the science
shows that they need different.

00:45:50.530 --> 00:45:54.250
One of the big things and why certainly
in the UK, a lot of the charities are

00:45:54.250 --> 00:45:57.210
focused on that message of men need
to talk because there's this thing,

00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:03.475
the That will lead them, as I said, I
gave that example earlier, that will

00:46:03.485 --> 00:46:07.545
sometimes lead them to take their own
lives because they can't talk, yeah?

00:46:07.995 --> 00:46:11.094
They'd rather do that than talk
to somebody about their problems.

00:46:11.105 --> 00:46:11.825
Some people, yeah?

00:46:11.825 --> 00:46:13.575
So that's number one
that we, that we know.

00:46:13.775 --> 00:46:16.414
And what we're trying to do is,
oh for a bit, you know, we're not

00:46:16.505 --> 00:46:19.125
trying to deal with people at the end
of that, at that end of the scale.

00:46:19.385 --> 00:46:22.025
It's important to say, you know, we're
trying to, this is for everyone, yeah,

00:46:22.025 --> 00:46:23.575
to try and be a bit more mentally fit.

00:46:23.895 --> 00:46:27.764
But, you know, it also hopefully, or
certainly the evidence shows that if you

00:46:27.764 --> 00:46:32.005
use the tools, In this app, then you're
less likely to suffer from depression

00:46:32.005 --> 00:46:33.745
and anxiety than people who aren't.

00:46:34.125 --> 00:46:37.065
So those are just, those
are just the knowns.

00:46:37.155 --> 00:46:39.785
And that's the first
controversial science or anything.

00:46:39.924 --> 00:46:41.875
That's pretty standard knowledge.

00:46:42.225 --> 00:46:44.264
Travis Bader: The best time for you
to get physically fit isn't when

00:46:44.265 --> 00:46:45.884
you're three, four hundred pounds.

00:46:46.244 --> 00:46:48.475
You're missing the boat on that one.

00:46:48.575 --> 00:46:49.355
It's right now.

00:46:49.385 --> 00:46:50.935
Right now as you start to get out.

00:46:50.935 --> 00:46:51.216
Yeah,

00:46:51.216 --> 00:46:51.779
Neil Smith: yeah, yeah.

00:46:51.779 --> 00:46:52.904
So get mentally fit.

00:46:53.355 --> 00:46:56.065
And you're going to perform
better in every area of your life.

00:46:56.475 --> 00:46:59.345
So just going back, sorry, I was just
slightly referring to something you

00:46:59.415 --> 00:47:02.585
said earlier, but it's kind of like men
aren't allowed to express their emotions.

00:47:02.585 --> 00:47:05.355
The one emotion they're allowed to
express, traditionally, is anger.

00:47:06.365 --> 00:47:08.164
The men are supposed to
express everything, you

00:47:08.165 --> 00:47:09.135
know, that's the acceptable.

00:47:09.235 --> 00:47:11.724
It's both unacceptable and acceptable.

00:47:12.724 --> 00:47:15.645
So it's unacceptable as in, um, you
know, you got angry, or you know,

00:47:15.645 --> 00:47:19.535
there's a man, he's got angry, it's
like, but it's the, like, society,

00:47:19.585 --> 00:47:22.925
you know, societally, it's the only.

00:47:23.340 --> 00:47:26.260
Emotion that men are supposed to express
his anger and that's where everything

00:47:26.430 --> 00:47:28.000
you're not supposed to cry, etc, etc.

00:47:28.210 --> 00:47:33.019
So I think, you know, going to your,
um, your army, uh, friend's point.

00:47:33.430 --> 00:47:36.279
I think that, so that's one thing.

00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:42.860
And I think the other thing is you
touched on is perhaps men are more able.

00:47:44.500 --> 00:47:46.900
I think that's some of the
evidence points towards that.

00:47:47.140 --> 00:47:48.690
Yeah, final means.

00:47:49.620 --> 00:47:50.120
That's right.

00:47:50.850 --> 00:47:54.269
But, you know, as I say, we're trying
not to focus on that side of things.

00:47:54.860 --> 00:47:57.920
Although there's clearly a problem
and you know, it's sort of a, it's

00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:01.300
sort of a tricky balancing act,
you know, as we say, you know, the

00:48:01.300 --> 00:48:08.220
problem is male, male mental health,
but the solution is mental fitness.

00:48:08.220 --> 00:48:12.700
Yeah, so if you're mentally fit, so, you
know, if you're physically fit, you're

00:48:12.700 --> 00:48:14.699
less likely to get diseases, aren't you?

00:48:14.779 --> 00:48:20.439
You know, you're less, you know, you're
less likely to suffer, you know, from,

00:48:20.720 --> 00:48:23.060
you know, if you're physically fit,
you're less likely to suffer from

00:48:23.470 --> 00:48:28.200
fatty liver disease, for example, or
heart disease or And cancers, etc.

00:48:28.200 --> 00:48:30.920
Do you say, I mean, so it's kind
of like, if you're mentally fit, of

00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:34.670
course, you're less likely to suffer
from poor mental health conditions,

00:48:34.670 --> 00:48:36.689
you know, well, we also have,

00:48:36.980 --> 00:48:38.590
Travis Bader: sorry, I was gonna
say, I'm going to read something

00:48:38.590 --> 00:48:40.350
here from the Mayo Clinic.

00:48:40.705 --> 00:48:44.885
And it says, uh, depression is one of the
most important risk factors in suicide.

00:48:44.915 --> 00:48:48.815
Unfortunately, male depression is
underdiagnosed because men are less

00:48:48.815 --> 00:48:53.065
likely to seek help and because men
don't always develop standard symptoms,

00:48:53.285 --> 00:48:57.045
such as sadness, but instead are
more likely to experience fatigue,

00:48:57.435 --> 00:49:02.325
irritability, sleep disturbances, and
a loss of interest in work and hobbies.

00:49:03.115 --> 00:49:06.735
So I thought I'd read that out just, you
know, cause most people think about mental

00:49:06.735 --> 00:49:09.005
health or depression as, okay, I'm sad.

00:49:09.485 --> 00:49:14.895
Well, according to the Mayo Clinic, men
tend to display it in that sort of a way.

00:49:15.315 --> 00:49:20.474
Um, and, you know, I'm sure you've
seen the Norfolk FC, uh, ad.

00:49:20.840 --> 00:49:26.850
For the, uh, powerful, powerful ad
for people who haven't seen that one.

00:49:26.850 --> 00:49:29.390
I'd say Google it basically in a nutshell.

00:49:29.390 --> 00:49:32.389
It's these two individuals
watching their favorite football

00:49:32.390 --> 00:49:33.789
team over and over again.

00:49:33.789 --> 00:49:37.649
And there's in this, in the bleachers
and there's one guy is cheering and

00:49:37.650 --> 00:49:43.390
happy and his buddy beside him is
looking sullen and withdrawn and.

00:49:44.225 --> 00:49:47.095
Each, each game, same
thing over and over again.

00:49:47.095 --> 00:49:50.745
And then the final game, the guy shows
up who's still unwithdrawn and puts

00:49:50.745 --> 00:49:54.305
his buddy's jersey beside him because
the guy who was happy and cheering

00:49:54.305 --> 00:49:58.254
was actually the guy who was suffering
from the mental health problems.

00:49:59.095 --> 00:49:59.644
It's not

00:49:59.645 --> 00:50:00.815
Neil Smith: always clear.

00:50:01.995 --> 00:50:02.605
No, it isn't.

00:50:02.855 --> 00:50:04.055
You have to be careful around that.

00:50:04.065 --> 00:50:05.235
I mean, I was that person.

00:50:05.235 --> 00:50:07.275
You were Richard Corey.

00:50:08.295 --> 00:50:08.745
I was.

00:50:09.915 --> 00:50:10.675
Who's Richard Corey?

00:50:10.675 --> 00:50:10.905
Sorry.

00:50:11.655 --> 00:50:14.365
Travis Bader: Edwin Arlington Robinson
wrote a poem called Richard Corey.

00:50:14.414 --> 00:50:17.615
Whenever Richard Corey went downtown,
we people on the pavement looked at him.

00:50:17.625 --> 00:50:21.025
He was a gentleman from soul to crown,
clean favoured and empirically slim.

00:50:21.244 --> 00:50:22.685
And he was always quietly arrayed.

00:50:22.910 --> 00:50:25.480
And it was always human when he
talked, but still he fluttered

00:50:25.510 --> 00:50:28.460
pulses when he said good morning,
and he glittered when he walked.

00:50:28.670 --> 00:50:33.909
And on we worked, and waited for the
light, and curse of bread, and Richard

00:50:33.909 --> 00:50:36.860
Quarry, one calm summer's night, went
home and put a bullet through his head.

00:50:37.780 --> 00:50:40.770
The Richard Cory's of the
world are the ones that you

00:50:40.770 --> 00:50:42.520
have to kind of look out for.

00:50:42.520 --> 00:50:47.080
And if you have the tools to be able
to identify what these things look

00:50:47.080 --> 00:50:52.930
like, withdrawn, irritable, uh, lack
of sleep, lack of interest in these

00:50:52.940 --> 00:50:58.750
things, maybe, maybe we should be taking
that initiative and saying, Hey, you

00:50:58.750 --> 00:51:01.170
should talk to somebody, or do you
want to talk or, Hey, there's this

00:51:01.190 --> 00:51:02.810
app called metal that I've been using.

00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:05.410
That's been, uh, I got
a couple of cool tools.

00:51:06.615 --> 00:51:10.015
Neil Smith: Because, you know, even
if, you know, even if the tools don't

00:51:10.015 --> 00:51:12.915
resonate with you and you're more and you
need more specialist help, we at least

00:51:12.915 --> 00:51:14.555
have a help page telling you where to

00:51:14.555 --> 00:51:14.875
Travis Bader: go.

00:51:15.235 --> 00:51:16.455
And you don't find that in other places?

00:51:17.655 --> 00:51:18.864
Neil Smith: No, no, no,
it's not on other apps.

00:51:18.864 --> 00:51:21.525
So, you know, we felt that was
really strongly that was something

00:51:21.525 --> 00:51:22.335
that we wanted to include.

00:51:22.335 --> 00:51:25.604
But, but, you know, so yeah, I was
the, by the way, I can see why you

00:51:25.604 --> 00:51:27.685
were an honors student, Travis.

00:51:27.685 --> 00:51:29.045
That was an excellent recital.

00:51:29.775 --> 00:51:30.085
very much.

00:51:31.325 --> 00:51:35.515
Um, but, you know, but, but just,
you know, I was a great mascot.

00:51:36.560 --> 00:51:41.600
So my, you know, my best mate who I
talked about, uh, earlier, you know, he

00:51:41.600 --> 00:51:46.360
was somebody I had in mind for the app
only found out that I had depression

00:51:46.679 --> 00:51:50.140
when he read about it a couple of
months ago in a national newspaper.

00:51:50.140 --> 00:51:52.408
You know what I mean?

00:51:52.408 --> 00:51:55.789
It's like, well, I didn't know that.

00:51:55.970 --> 00:51:58.290
The life when I was, you know,
we were going out every day.

00:51:58.390 --> 00:51:59.060
These are the people

00:51:59.060 --> 00:51:59.710
Travis Bader: closest to you.

00:52:00.905 --> 00:52:05.855
Yeah, it's exactly that advert, you
know, uh, I, I think in my head, um,

00:52:05.905 --> 00:52:10.185
how often do you think about your hot
water tank and it flooding in your house?

00:52:10.575 --> 00:52:11.925
Probably never, right?

00:52:12.105 --> 00:52:13.585
Most people probably never.

00:52:14.735 --> 00:52:17.655
I know a fellow and he goes around,
he shows everybody this little alarm.

00:52:17.655 --> 00:52:20.384
You can put underneath your hot water
tank and when moisture hits it, an

00:52:20.384 --> 00:52:22.365
alarm goes off and it can notify you.

00:52:23.035 --> 00:52:24.345
Why is it on his mind?

00:52:24.515 --> 00:52:26.245
Why is he talking about these things?

00:52:26.375 --> 00:52:27.955
Because it's affected him personally.

00:52:27.955 --> 00:52:30.495
And so these are little things that
I look out for when talking about

00:52:30.515 --> 00:52:32.185
people, things to keep coming up.

00:52:33.755 --> 00:52:35.655
It's there's, there's a reason for it.

00:52:35.805 --> 00:52:40.414
And, um, maybe, maybe it's not as
obvious as someone coming out and

00:52:40.414 --> 00:52:43.185
saying, Hey, I've got an alarm or I've
got this, but if there is a common

00:52:43.185 --> 00:52:45.775
thread to the conversation, maybe,
maybe there's something that should

00:52:45.785 --> 00:52:47.145
be dug into a little bit deeper.

00:52:48.625 --> 00:52:49.405
Yeah, absolutely.

00:52:49.405 --> 00:52:52.564
Neil Smith: I mean, I, I can
sympathize with him by the way,

00:52:52.565 --> 00:52:55.624
because I've had boiler problems
that really expensive to fix.

00:52:56.025 --> 00:52:58.865
Travis Bader: Have you heard of
the Australian sheds initiative?

00:53:00.875 --> 00:53:01.155
Yes.

00:53:01.195 --> 00:53:05.895
This is where I see metal moving to
my personal from an ADHD standpoint

00:53:05.925 --> 00:53:07.944
and loving to build and create things.

00:53:08.595 --> 00:53:14.564
I see it moving from a mobile app to a
movement, sort of like rucking, right?

00:53:14.564 --> 00:53:17.425
Rucking, they got communities
and people get together and they

00:53:17.425 --> 00:53:20.095
put their pack on and they'll go
and they'll get their exercise.

00:53:20.110 --> 00:53:26.480
To be able to facilitate a boots on the
ground community of people who can, and

00:53:26.480 --> 00:53:31.149
for people who haven't heard of the sheds
initiative, uh, in Australia, they found

00:53:31.150 --> 00:53:36.049
that men were not likely to go and sit
down and talk about what's going on in

00:53:36.050 --> 00:53:41.300
their life with their mates, but you
give them a project to work on, they

00:53:41.330 --> 00:53:45.510
build a shed and they've got different
woodworking or they have a motor that,

00:53:45.510 --> 00:53:50.000
uh, needs rebuilding on a lawnmower and
they get a group of men working together.

00:53:50.265 --> 00:53:53.955
They'll talk, they've got a shared
focus or working on something.

00:53:53.955 --> 00:53:56.705
And they'll, they'll talk about
things that maybe they wouldn't

00:53:56.705 --> 00:53:58.355
normally open up or talk about.

00:53:58.355 --> 00:54:01.205
And so that's exploded in Australia.

00:54:01.714 --> 00:54:05.125
I can see a similar thing
being, uh, driven by

00:54:05.125 --> 00:54:05.485
Neil Smith: metal.

00:54:06.825 --> 00:54:07.195
Yeah.

00:54:07.825 --> 00:54:08.805
Yeah, absolutely.

00:54:09.044 --> 00:54:13.035
I mean, being a movement is
something we want, ultimately want.

00:54:13.540 --> 00:54:15.730
To be, you know, we want to
create a community at the moment.

00:54:15.730 --> 00:54:16.590
We have to focus on the app.

00:54:16.590 --> 00:54:17.720
Of course the app is expensive

00:54:18.650 --> 00:54:20.160
Travis Bader: You gotta
recoup those costs.

00:54:20.200 --> 00:54:20.520
Come on

00:54:21.250 --> 00:54:23.939
Neil Smith: Exactly, you know, and that's
a really good first start because it gets

00:54:23.939 --> 00:54:29.479
us into the pockets and you know the the
lives Potentially of millions of men.

00:54:29.610 --> 00:54:34.710
Well, yeah, but ultimately You know
metal we want to be synonymous with male

00:54:34.710 --> 00:54:37.550
mental health, you know mental fitness,
you know, so it's kind of like okay

00:54:37.550 --> 00:54:41.300
well that means the community that means
at events that means kind of things

00:54:41.300 --> 00:54:47.220
happening in the real world to support
men and Like our whole, uh, our mission,

00:54:47.220 --> 00:54:52.840
our central mission is to help men be
better because we believe if we have

00:54:52.849 --> 00:54:54.139
better men, then we have a better world.

00:54:54.139 --> 00:54:54.349
Yeah.

00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:56.110
Men are good at messing things up.

00:54:56.290 --> 00:54:56.560
Yeah.

00:54:56.830 --> 00:55:01.029
Every, every woman has a man
in her life and vice versa.

00:55:01.030 --> 00:55:01.229
Yeah.

00:55:01.229 --> 00:55:04.339
So a lot of women really are
in great support of this.

00:55:04.339 --> 00:55:05.760
You know, it's kind of like, I think so.

00:55:05.980 --> 00:55:07.680
Like only.

00:55:08.910 --> 00:55:11.570
Yesterday I speak to somebody
who'd approached me because his

00:55:11.570 --> 00:55:13.980
wife said, you've got to download
this, get a grip on your anger.

00:55:13.980 --> 00:55:17.409
He's heard about it on
a podcast or whatever.

00:55:17.410 --> 00:55:18.840
And it's like, you know, now he's on it.

00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:20.240
And then I spoke to him,
he's like, I love it.

00:55:20.990 --> 00:55:23.500
But it's kind of, um, yeah.

00:55:23.520 --> 00:55:24.050
Have you,

00:55:24.050 --> 00:55:29.260
Travis Bader: have you, um, read that
study from Harvard, the longest study

00:55:29.260 --> 00:55:32.670
of his kind, 80 years that followed
different people from all different

00:55:32.680 --> 00:55:36.770
backgrounds to try and determine what
brings happiness into their life.

00:55:38.345 --> 00:55:43.635
Neil Smith: Well, if it starts with
the longest, having ADHD, that's a no.

00:55:45.260 --> 00:55:48.405
I mean, you know, that's where
tldr, you know that phrase tld?

00:55:48.405 --> 00:55:49.695
That is my, yeah, too long.

00:55:49.695 --> 00:55:51.555
Travis Bader: Didn't I use eif, ELIF.

00:55:51.825 --> 00:55:52.185
Right.

00:55:52.185 --> 00:55:53.325
And it's explained.

00:55:53.475 --> 00:55:53.805
What's that?

00:55:53.805 --> 00:55:54.225
Explain?

00:55:54.225 --> 00:55:56.325
Like I'm five and I type that, yeah.

00:55:56.325 --> 00:55:58.005
I type that into ai.

00:55:58.065 --> 00:56:02.175
I've got an app on my phone, call po
or I'll use GPT or whatever, right?

00:56:02.385 --> 00:56:05.865
eif and I give the link and it'll
come through and to give, like I'm a

00:56:05.865 --> 00:56:09.075
5-year-old to give the main points and
then I can dig deeper if I want to.

00:56:09.665 --> 00:56:10.205
Um,

00:56:10.205 --> 00:56:10.745
Neil Smith: correct.

00:56:10.985 --> 00:56:11.255
But.

00:56:11.365 --> 00:56:13.595
Yeah, that's quite the, yeah,
that's, that's how I have to work.

00:56:14.395 --> 00:56:18.195
Travis Bader: They said the number
one predictor of happiness across

00:56:18.215 --> 00:56:24.355
all ages, genders, uh, backgrounds
was strong social connections.

00:56:24.784 --> 00:56:29.124
And I would think, I know you're
step one, just out of the gates

00:56:29.125 --> 00:56:32.545
with metal, man, if there's a
way to get a boots on the ground.

00:56:32.835 --> 00:56:37.695
Movement of people getting together and
be able to build those social connections.

00:56:37.695 --> 00:56:41.595
Cause building a social connection
within an app is an important is

00:56:41.605 --> 00:56:47.265
important, but I think the actual
physical connection that people can

00:56:47.265 --> 00:56:53.485
have is one of the things that people
are dearly missing in today's society.

00:56:55.085 --> 00:56:56.355
Neil Smith: Yeah, a hundred percent agree.

00:56:56.975 --> 00:56:57.325
Yeah.

00:56:57.375 --> 00:57:02.095
And you know, that's, you know, obviously
we were talking about the flip side

00:57:02.095 --> 00:57:03.705
of that is that makes people happy.

00:57:05.085 --> 00:57:05.565
Oh, totally.

00:57:05.625 --> 00:57:06.035
Part of that.

00:57:06.795 --> 00:57:10.875
It, it, it's the people without social
connection, that's one of the biggest

00:57:10.955 --> 00:57:16.585
risks, um, of somebody taking their own
lives, is, is that they're missing that.

00:57:16.955 --> 00:57:21.565
So you know, that, it works all the way
across the spectrum, social connection.

00:57:21.585 --> 00:57:21.785
And I

00:57:21.785 --> 00:57:25.864
Travis Bader: wonder if it's one of
these things where, you know, it seems

00:57:25.944 --> 00:57:30.880
overwhelming, it seems massive, but the
reality of It, it's just these tiny little

00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:33.010
tweaks and there really isn't much to it.

00:57:33.540 --> 00:57:41.179
Like, I think there's a danger to going
to talk therapy or going to, um, uh,

00:57:41.190 --> 00:57:46.770
medication, getting medicated too quickly,
uh, because people come in with this

00:57:46.770 --> 00:57:50.180
approach that there's gotta be something
wrong with me and maybe I feel like I'm

00:57:50.180 --> 00:57:52.720
down or I feel like I should be ABC.

00:57:53.380 --> 00:57:56.480
And maybe instead of saying, well,
there's got to be something wrong with me.

00:57:56.480 --> 00:58:00.010
Say how I'm feeling right
now is absolutely natural.

00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:04.890
Given my current circumstances, given the
fact that I don't have a goal or I'm not

00:58:04.890 --> 00:58:07.420
driven or I lack, uh, I'm not exercising.

00:58:07.420 --> 00:58:08.180
I'm not eating right.

00:58:08.180 --> 00:58:11.820
I'm not meditating or I'm not sleeping
like these, how I'm feeling is a very.

00:58:12.090 --> 00:58:17.470
Natural by product and rather than
looking at it, like I have a problem,

00:58:18.090 --> 00:58:22.360
um, Looking at it like here's some
simple steps or solutions that I

00:58:22.360 --> 00:58:23.600
can take in order to get there.

00:58:23.600 --> 00:58:26.970
And I guess the fear is that you go
to medication too quick and people get

00:58:26.970 --> 00:58:28.829
hooked on these things or the wrong ones.

00:58:28.830 --> 00:58:33.319
And it's really a throwing of the
dice when you try and figure out what

00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:34.630
meds are going to work with somebody.

00:58:34.670 --> 00:58:37.649
Or you look at talk therapy
and you got the wrong person.

00:58:38.630 --> 00:58:40.470
I mean, it's never going to click for you.

00:58:40.510 --> 00:58:43.410
But if you can have those strong
social connections with your mates.

00:58:43.935 --> 00:58:48.785
And it's like the old crocodile Dundee
one, when he's, uh, talking, they're

00:58:48.785 --> 00:58:54.095
at a party and, and he says, that
guy's a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

00:58:54.095 --> 00:58:54.624
What's that?

00:58:54.625 --> 00:58:57.035
And I forget his, uh, friend's name there.

00:58:57.035 --> 00:58:59.915
She says, well, you know, you go
in, you pay him a bunch of money.

00:58:59.915 --> 00:59:02.304
You talk about your problems
and he helps you out.

00:59:02.315 --> 00:59:03.955
You keep going there over
and over and you get.

00:59:05.025 --> 00:59:08.125
You get some results and she
says, well, don't you have

00:59:08.125 --> 00:59:09.595
anything like that down under?

00:59:09.595 --> 00:59:11.055
He says, Oh, we got the bartender.

00:59:11.055 --> 00:59:11.955
We tell him our problems.

00:59:11.955 --> 00:59:13.675
He tells everybody else, no more problem.

00:59:13.725 --> 00:59:14.125
Right.

00:59:14.445 --> 00:59:17.495
And maybe it's as simple as that
for, for not everything, but

00:59:18.785 --> 00:59:19.095
Neil Smith: yeah.

00:59:19.115 --> 00:59:21.764
So that's a really, that's really
interesting because obviously

00:59:21.764 --> 00:59:26.895
that was delivered as a joke, but
it has a huge amount of truth.

00:59:28.005 --> 00:59:32.355
So certainly in the UK, a
movement that starts in the UK is.

00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:36.890
Barbers, so it's like men will
relax when they get in a haircut.

00:59:37.680 --> 00:59:39.430
Yeah, they just talk to their barber.

00:59:39.430 --> 00:59:43.580
So a lot of barbers now are
being trained in, you know.

00:59:44.395 --> 00:59:48.325
being able to spot kind of mental health
things, but also, you know, community,

00:59:48.365 --> 00:59:51.115
how to communicate with men and help
them out and point them in the direction,

00:59:51.135 --> 00:59:52.705
right direction if they need it.

00:59:53.655 --> 01:00:01.035
Um, you know, black men especially, uh,
can often use the barbers as a community.

01:00:01.045 --> 01:00:01.355
Totally.

01:00:01.355 --> 01:00:03.445
A lot of people will be in there.

01:00:03.815 --> 01:00:08.605
And so we've been working with some guys
who, who, um, are in that community who,

01:00:09.425 --> 01:00:16.995
um, you know, uh, uh, really making great
strides because, because You know, in the

01:00:16.995 --> 01:00:22.705
black community, uh, uh, mental health
outcomes are even, even worse for black

01:00:22.705 --> 01:00:25.075
men than white men in the, in the UK.

01:00:25.495 --> 01:00:31.445
Um, and, uh, and they find it
perhaps harder to talk, um,

01:00:32.305 --> 01:00:33.445
because of cultural reasons.

01:00:34.005 --> 01:00:36.225
And, but the barbers is
one of the safe spaces.

01:00:36.225 --> 01:00:39.725
So, you know, actually that telling
the bartender or the barber.

01:00:40.450 --> 01:00:47.630
Is becoming now a real place where, um,
people can make an impact on male mental

01:00:47.630 --> 01:00:49.540
health because it's, it's accessible.

01:00:49.540 --> 01:00:50.430
I feel comfortable there.

01:00:50.430 --> 01:00:53.350
Yeah, I don't, I'm, I'm, I'm happy
to let my guard down for a moment.

01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:53.920
Right.

01:00:54.060 --> 01:00:55.769
It's a place to go

01:00:55.770 --> 01:00:56.360
Travis Bader: to relax.

01:00:56.360 --> 01:00:56.740
Right.

01:00:56.970 --> 01:00:57.270
Yeah.

01:00:57.350 --> 01:00:58.900
And I'm not going to be judged.

01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:02.620
And if I'm laughed at, it's going a way
because they actually care about me.

01:01:02.680 --> 01:01:03.000
Right.

01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:04.880
And it's my peers.

01:01:06.660 --> 01:01:08.330
Neil Smith: Yeah, it doesn't
cost me anything either.

01:01:08.910 --> 01:01:10.000
Travis Bader: Yes, totally.

01:01:11.080 --> 01:01:12.180
That's an important piece of the puzzle.

01:01:15.420 --> 01:01:16.130
I love that.

01:01:16.930 --> 01:01:18.300
Um, that's good.

01:01:18.750 --> 01:01:20.410
So you just launched it.

01:01:20.530 --> 01:01:21.850
You got it out of the gates.

01:01:21.930 --> 01:01:22.540
Um.

01:01:23.170 --> 01:01:25.250
Initial traction, like testing.

01:01:25.250 --> 01:01:26.950
I know I was looking at some of the stats.

01:01:26.950 --> 01:01:31.960
I was through the roof, the
Instagram, Facebook, seeing what

01:01:31.960 --> 01:01:33.490
the results are back on that.

01:01:34.730 --> 01:01:39.400
Everyone knows was likely aware
that people keep talking about

01:01:39.410 --> 01:01:42.380
the next pandemic is going to be a
pandemic of mental health, right?

01:01:42.380 --> 01:01:46.760
And it's that we are in a mental health
crisis, which maybe, maybe that's a

01:01:46.760 --> 01:01:49.924
good thing, maybe the pandemic, and
maybe these things that have come.

01:01:50.055 --> 01:01:57.085
Push people to a point of mental health
is good from the, um, the path of least

01:01:57.085 --> 01:01:59.065
resistance principle or Zipf's law.

01:01:59.065 --> 01:01:59.905
I think they call it.

01:02:00.125 --> 01:02:01.175
Have you heard of that one before?

01:02:02.935 --> 01:02:07.815
So they say, um, I guess this guy did,
uh, got his name associated with it, but

01:02:07.815 --> 01:02:12.770
essentially let's say you got to seek out
a An answer to a problem you have, and

01:02:12.780 --> 01:02:17.840
you can look in your building and there's
a generalist who has acceptable answers,

01:02:18.120 --> 01:02:21.180
or you can go to the next building
over and you can get the specialist

01:02:21.520 --> 01:02:24.600
who will give you the bang on answer.

01:02:24.990 --> 01:02:26.810
Well, it's easier just to
talk to the generalist.

01:02:26.810 --> 01:02:28.530
Cause I'm going to get
the acceptable answer.

01:02:28.550 --> 01:02:29.530
That's the easy part.

01:02:30.310 --> 01:02:32.240
If you push it harder, right?

01:02:32.240 --> 01:02:36.510
If there's enough pain involved, you're
going to seek out the actual solution.

01:02:36.510 --> 01:02:38.990
So maybe it's kind of like, well.

01:02:39.290 --> 01:02:42.810
Um, I'm, I'm in a
relationship and it's okay.

01:02:42.860 --> 01:02:44.550
I'm not happy, but I'm not bad.

01:02:44.740 --> 01:02:46.430
And he'll just carry
this relationship out.

01:02:46.430 --> 01:02:49.390
But if it becomes violent
or really bad, okay.

01:02:49.660 --> 01:02:52.750
You know, path of least resistance
now is to leave this relationship

01:02:52.750 --> 01:02:53.810
and seek out something new.

01:02:53.810 --> 01:03:00.640
So maybe the pandemic and the
media concentrating on all these

01:03:00.650 --> 01:03:03.630
negative things is actually pushing
people to a point where they're

01:03:03.630 --> 01:03:05.770
like, mental health is important.

01:03:06.040 --> 01:03:07.910
We're going to have to move.

01:03:09.070 --> 01:03:10.540
Neil Smith: Uh, you know, I think that's.

01:03:10.945 --> 01:03:15.715
There's a, there's a lot of truth in
that, you know, like if you just take

01:03:15.715 --> 01:03:21.395
the last pandemic, you know, it made
people completely reevaluate their

01:03:21.395 --> 01:03:27.005
lives and, uh, you know, certainly
that's for me when I made my big change.

01:03:28.095 --> 01:03:31.665
I also kind of reevaluated my
relationship with my family as many

01:03:31.665 --> 01:03:33.725
people, many men especially did.

01:03:33.725 --> 01:03:37.345
I think, you know, so huge
amount of change was forced.

01:03:37.940 --> 01:03:43.340
Through a difficult situation, you know,
and now my relationships certainly,

01:03:43.950 --> 01:03:47.670
you know, with my family are a lot
closer I would say, you know because

01:03:48.100 --> 01:03:49.830
people were able to think okay.

01:03:49.830 --> 01:03:53.110
Well, how important is
balance, you know in the world?

01:03:53.110 --> 01:03:57.440
What what is important when a lot's taken
away, you know, our freedom effectively

01:03:57.440 --> 01:04:03.280
is taken away from us What's important
and what do I want to when I go back when

01:04:03.280 --> 01:04:08.160
the world goes back to normal What bits
am I just going to get back to normal

01:04:08.160 --> 01:04:09.550
or are things going to be different now?

01:04:10.040 --> 01:04:16.020
And like, you know things have changed
so You know it's not the norm that

01:04:16.660 --> 01:04:22.260
Certainly not that everybody goes to work
in the office every day You know, people

01:04:22.590 --> 01:04:24.310
might do a day or two from home or more.

01:04:25.030 --> 01:04:25.180
Yeah.

01:04:25.180 --> 01:04:29.760
And that's perfectly normal now, but it
wasn't before the pandemic, you know,

01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:32.970
it just, it wasn't, you know, zoom.

01:04:33.120 --> 01:04:33.690
Yes.

01:04:35.570 --> 01:04:35.880
Yeah.

01:04:35.960 --> 01:04:40.100
So when I, so as a TV producer, if
I wanted to pitch a show to LA and I

01:04:40.100 --> 01:04:43.359
lived in London, I have to fly to LA.

01:04:43.820 --> 01:04:47.950
As soon as, as soon as COVID
happened, obviously the option.

01:04:48.385 --> 01:04:49.095
wasn't available.

01:04:49.125 --> 01:04:50.685
Yeah, everybody moved to zoom.

01:04:51.205 --> 01:04:54.785
And since COVID's over, everybody's
stuck on that because it's like, well,

01:04:54.785 --> 01:04:56.725
why would I fly to LA to pitch a show?

01:04:57.015 --> 01:04:57.725
Just get on the zoom.

01:04:57.725 --> 01:04:57.925
Yeah.

01:04:58.115 --> 01:05:03.205
It's kind of like, so these things do
force change, you know, they're, they're

01:05:03.215 --> 01:05:07.145
hard, but you know, it's kind of,
there's been a lot of positive change.

01:05:08.440 --> 01:05:11.390
Travis Bader: Well, how are you
managing the stress of a startup as

01:05:11.390 --> 01:05:13.260
well as those boundaries of work time?

01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:18.890
Because I know doing startups
myself, I like to joke, you know,

01:05:19.170 --> 01:05:20.500
you know, I've got my own business.

01:05:20.500 --> 01:05:23.150
I can take time off whenever
I want, which is true.

01:05:23.210 --> 01:05:28.150
You can, but the reality is you don't,
the reality is that it's always on your

01:05:28.150 --> 01:05:31.070
mind and you're working when you wake
up and you're working, when you go to

01:05:31.070 --> 01:05:34.830
sleep and you're talking with your spouse
about work and how do you manage that?

01:05:34.870 --> 01:05:35.170
Yeah.

01:05:35.170 --> 01:05:35.190
So

01:05:35.190 --> 01:05:36.750
Neil Smith: a couple of points there.

01:05:37.340 --> 01:05:41.260
You know, somebody told me a while ago,
you know, so a coach that I was working

01:05:41.260 --> 01:05:45.160
with about, you know, you shouldn't
really look at work life balance, work

01:05:45.160 --> 01:05:47.670
life balance anymore, because that's
just going out the window, and it's

01:05:47.670 --> 01:05:48.830
going to go out the window, you know.

01:05:49.150 --> 01:05:50.930
Think about work life integration, yeah.

01:05:51.350 --> 01:05:55.030
So it's kind of like, you know,
okay, well, yeah, I'm talking to

01:05:55.030 --> 01:05:57.320
my spouse about, you know, metal.

01:05:57.320 --> 01:05:59.060
I'm waking up and thinking about it.

01:05:59.930 --> 01:06:04.700
But I'm not necessarily in the
office the whole time doing that.

01:06:04.700 --> 01:06:05.690
Do you see what I mean?

01:06:05.690 --> 01:06:06.980
So I'm making sure.

01:06:07.630 --> 01:06:09.270
The, I spend plenty of time at home.

01:06:09.310 --> 01:06:13.340
We don't work long hours here, but we
think about the products all the time.

01:06:13.530 --> 01:06:14.040
Not true.

01:06:14.040 --> 01:06:16.980
When we're building the product, we often
did have to work very long hours, but

01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:23.350
you know, but, and we still do actually,
but not always from the office, you know?

01:06:23.740 --> 01:06:29.140
And, you know, I make sure, you know,
our CTO, just after we launched the

01:06:29.160 --> 01:06:31.810
product, he went to Mexico on holiday for
two weeks, which is a really bad time.

01:06:31.820 --> 01:06:32.070
I remember

01:06:32.070 --> 01:06:34.470
Travis Bader: I talked to you
then when he was on holidays.

01:06:34.990 --> 01:06:35.230
Yeah.

01:06:35.290 --> 01:06:35.890
It's a really bad

01:06:35.890 --> 01:06:36.710
Neil Smith: time for him to go.

01:06:37.810 --> 01:06:39.880
But he needed to go and
we wanted him to go.

01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:40.030
Yeah.

01:06:40.030 --> 01:06:41.700
Because he needed that break.

01:06:41.730 --> 01:06:42.240
Break.

01:06:42.300 --> 01:06:43.440
Obviously the product broke.

01:06:43.500 --> 01:06:43.590
Mm-Hmm.

01:06:44.160 --> 01:06:47.040
, you know, but not too badly while he
was away and, and, and, you know, came

01:06:47.040 --> 01:06:49.950
back and refreshed and ready to go,
you know, I'm going away for a week

01:06:50.310 --> 01:06:54.360
on, you know, to to, to do some surfing
and some yoga and some meditation.

01:06:54.540 --> 01:06:54.960
Nice.

01:06:55.230 --> 01:06:58.605
Uh, in a couple of weeks because I
need, I need a break and I think it's.

01:06:59.570 --> 01:07:05.020
You know, I say that if we can't,
if we create a mental health app and

01:07:05.020 --> 01:07:07.840
then our mental health is destroyed
by the process of building that

01:07:07.870 --> 01:07:12.930
app, then we've failed, you know,
that's what it comes down to for me.

01:07:13.290 --> 01:07:13.590
Travis Bader: Yeah.

01:07:14.565 --> 01:07:15.285
Lead by example.

01:07:16.085 --> 01:07:17.945
Neil Smith: Also, do the tools work?

01:07:18.175 --> 01:07:22.485
So, you know, the acid test for me was,
okay, now I'm in a really stressful

01:07:22.495 --> 01:07:27.455
situation, which is I've launched
a new business and it's stressful.

01:07:31.125 --> 01:07:32.755
Do the tools on metal work for me?

01:07:32.755 --> 01:07:35.145
And the answer is yes they do, because
I partly built the app because I

01:07:35.145 --> 01:07:36.164
wanted something decent that works.

01:07:36.165 --> 01:07:36.705
I love that.

01:07:37.265 --> 01:07:37.915
Travis Bader: I love that.

01:07:38.210 --> 01:07:38.720
Neil Smith: That's the best one.

01:07:38.920 --> 01:07:42.680
And so like, you know, yesterday
I, you know, I've got, I do the

01:07:42.680 --> 01:07:43.860
courses, I do the quick hits.

01:07:43.900 --> 01:07:45.250
Yesterday I was feeling stressed.

01:07:45.250 --> 01:07:45.320
Yeah.

01:07:45.320 --> 01:07:46.710
And we've got like a
little chat bot thing.

01:07:46.720 --> 01:07:47.140
This is how you feel.

01:07:47.340 --> 01:07:48.130
I pressed stressed.

01:07:48.640 --> 01:07:49.240
So why?

01:07:49.380 --> 01:07:50.900
Work is, work is full on.

01:07:51.120 --> 01:07:54.790
So it served me up a couple of
breathworks from stress and anxiety

01:07:54.790 --> 01:07:55.850
and I did them, I felt better.

01:07:56.100 --> 01:08:01.660
Um, so, you know, built a tool
to help me build the tool.

01:08:01.660 --> 01:08:02.130
I love it.

01:08:02.830 --> 01:08:02.930
Travis Bader: I love it.

01:08:04.730 --> 01:08:06.560
What, what do you see in the future?

01:08:06.880 --> 01:08:10.930
Like, I mean, it's hard to look future
when you're in a thick of a launch

01:08:10.950 --> 01:08:12.220
and, and getting things out there.

01:08:13.100 --> 01:08:16.520
What do you see in the next foreseeable
future in the distant future for metal?

01:08:17.620 --> 01:08:17.860
Yeah.

01:08:17.860 --> 01:08:20.400
Neil Smith: Well, so in, in,
in the very close future, we

01:08:20.400 --> 01:08:21.280
want to make the app better.

01:08:22.075 --> 01:08:26.715
You know, we want to, now we've got a
user group, we want to listen to them and,

01:08:26.775 --> 01:08:33.305
and feedback and make it more accessible,
easier to use, use your things, you know,

01:08:33.745 --> 01:08:37.905
where you quite UK kind of focus, we're
available everywhere, but a lot of our

01:08:37.905 --> 01:08:42.375
marketing budget has been spent in the
UK, so we need to kind of broaden out, and

01:08:42.375 --> 01:08:49.155
you know, so the whole world knows about
us, uh, but ultimately it's what you said

01:08:49.175 --> 01:08:52.035
earlier, we want to become a movement, you
know, we want to become synonymous with

01:08:52.035 --> 01:08:58.230
men's fitness, you know, there's so much
There's no voice there that you can name.

01:08:58.230 --> 01:09:02.160
There's no brand, you know, not
an authentic brand, you know, that

01:09:02.200 --> 01:09:07.420
stands that actually do something
about men's mental fitness, you know?

01:09:08.620 --> 01:09:12.360
And it's kind of like, well,
that's what we need to step into.

01:09:12.380 --> 01:09:13.290
So those are our plans.

01:09:13.290 --> 01:09:15.264
But in the meantime, yeah, we've got to.

01:09:15.525 --> 01:09:19.465
You know, it's all, you know,
it's all, um, all feet on deck.

01:09:19.465 --> 01:09:20.065
Is that the phrase?

01:09:20.065 --> 01:09:20.685
I can't remember.

01:09:20.685 --> 01:09:21.775
All hands on deck.

01:09:21.785 --> 01:09:22.285
Yes.

01:09:22.535 --> 01:09:23.435
All hands on deck.

01:09:23.625 --> 01:09:23.845
Not

01:09:23.845 --> 01:09:23.935
Travis Bader: feet.

01:09:23.935 --> 01:09:25.145
I could do both.

01:09:26.285 --> 01:09:26.465
Neil Smith: Yeah.

01:09:26.835 --> 01:09:27.495
Hands on feet.

01:09:27.535 --> 01:09:29.315
All hands and feet are on deck.

01:09:29.555 --> 01:09:30.685
Just trying to improve the app.

01:09:31.625 --> 01:09:36.245
Um, but yeah, certainly the longterm focus
has got to be, you know, helping men be

01:09:36.245 --> 01:09:39.675
better because we believe that if they're
better men, we've got a better world.

01:09:40.715 --> 01:09:43.335
And that's, that's what
we're doing it for.

01:09:43.335 --> 01:09:45.335
It's a passion project for everyone.

01:09:45.595 --> 01:09:47.265
That's another one of our values, passion.

01:09:47.355 --> 01:09:49.735
Because we're all in it, because
we're completely passionate.

01:09:49.735 --> 01:09:50.895
None of us are doing it for money.

01:09:51.765 --> 01:09:52.895
You know, that's for sure.

01:09:53.470 --> 01:09:57.070
Um, you know, it's quite funny the
people's perceptions of tech and, you

01:09:57.070 --> 01:10:00.190
know, oh, you know, , it's kinda like
it doesn't really work like that.

01:10:00.840 --> 01:10:03.510
Travis Bader: Um, I mean,
some hit everyone compares.

01:10:03.750 --> 01:10:03.930
Yeah.

01:10:03.930 --> 01:10:04.200
Some

01:10:04.200 --> 01:10:04.320
Neil Smith: hit.

01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:07.195
And if you hit right, yeah,
I'd love, I'd love it to hit.

01:10:07.200 --> 01:10:07.800
Of course I would.

01:10:08.070 --> 01:10:08.370
Yeah.

01:10:08.375 --> 01:10:09.630
I'd love to make lots of money off it.

01:10:09.630 --> 01:10:11.550
Of course, I'd be lying
if I said I wasn't.

01:10:12.030 --> 01:10:15.270
But that is not enough to motivate
you to do something like this.

01:10:15.270 --> 01:10:15.330
No.

01:10:15.480 --> 01:10:18.210
All of us have taken
huge pay cuts to do this.

01:10:18.450 --> 01:10:21.120
You know, uh, and we do it
because we're passionate.

01:10:21.170 --> 01:10:22.400
We really believe there's something there.

01:10:22.780 --> 01:10:24.390
We really believe there's
a gap in the market.

01:10:24.730 --> 01:10:26.600
We really believe there's a mission.

01:10:26.800 --> 01:10:29.860
And when we hear from, when we
get feedback, you know, not all

01:10:29.870 --> 01:10:31.520
of the feedback is positive, and
that's what we're working on.

01:10:32.060 --> 01:10:34.160
But most of it is positive.

01:10:34.550 --> 01:10:38.030
And people are saying, Oh, I never
thought I'd meditate until I tried Chibs.

01:10:38.030 --> 01:10:38.420
He's our meditation coach.

01:10:38.420 --> 01:10:39.300
Yeah, he's good, eh?

01:10:40.470 --> 01:10:41.260
He's so cool.

01:10:41.440 --> 01:10:42.730
And now I'm doing it every day.

01:10:43.930 --> 01:10:47.240
You know, it's like, you know, we had
a guy in Hawaii write to us, and he's

01:10:47.240 --> 01:10:51.690
kind of like, You know, I've just had
open heart surgery, I'm recovering, I

01:10:51.690 --> 01:10:55.210
found metal, I'm using it every day,
it's really helping with my mental

01:10:55.660 --> 01:10:57.370
state, you know, we're getting better.

01:10:57.520 --> 01:11:00.690
We've had lots like that, you know,
somebody in the military writing to

01:11:00.690 --> 01:11:04.370
us says, I want to get this out to all
my My soldiers is really helping me.

01:11:04.540 --> 01:11:06.240
And that's, that's what you do it for.

01:11:06.240 --> 01:11:06.390
Yeah.

01:11:06.420 --> 01:11:09.570
Travis Bader: You know, a friend of mine
just had his blig amputated a couple

01:11:09.570 --> 01:11:15.160
of days ago and, uh, I'll be visiting
him as soon as we wrap up here, but he

01:11:15.170 --> 01:11:21.180
started a local movement of, uh, mental
health walks and he does it every,

01:11:21.190 --> 01:11:26.230
every, uh, second Sunday going out and
doing a mental health walk after an

01:11:26.230 --> 01:11:31.280
individual that we know, uh, attempted
to take his own life was unsuccessful.

01:11:31.630 --> 01:11:36.550
Ended up losing an eye and
bullet went under his chin and

01:11:36.560 --> 01:11:37.860
out through his forehead here.

01:11:38.450 --> 01:11:43.160
Um, and regrets the second
he pulled the trigger.

01:11:43.170 --> 01:11:45.410
He says he regretted the decision.

01:11:45.790 --> 01:11:48.750
And I mean, the fellow is a
PPCLI, Princess Patricia's

01:11:48.780 --> 01:11:49.860
Canadian Light Infantry.

01:11:49.990 --> 01:11:52.740
Sniper, he says, I know where
the bullet's supposed to go.

01:11:52.760 --> 01:11:56.690
He says, but at the very last
moment, it was intoxicated.

01:11:56.770 --> 01:11:58.680
It was a Christmas time.

01:11:58.680 --> 01:12:02.880
And, um, very last moment before
he pulled the trigger, he heard a

01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:05.360
booming voice says, change the angle.

01:12:05.820 --> 01:12:08.700
And he doesn't know what
to attribute that to.

01:12:08.710 --> 01:12:11.900
He's found faith afterwards and
says, I think that's what it was.

01:12:11.910 --> 01:12:15.100
But like, I know where the bullet's
supposed to go, ended up having to.

01:12:15.415 --> 01:12:19.475
Affect his own self rescue, but
that affects everybody around you.

01:12:19.675 --> 01:12:24.285
I mean, people look at this permanent
solution to whatever their temporary

01:12:24.285 --> 01:12:30.015
pain is without realizing perhaps,
or maybe in the moment, not caring

01:12:31.065 --> 01:12:32.675
that the pain that you have.

01:12:32.945 --> 01:12:35.735
Affects your entire family afterwards.

01:12:35.795 --> 01:12:37.195
Everybody has to carry that.

01:12:37.195 --> 01:12:38.985
Your friends end up carrying it.

01:12:39.015 --> 01:12:42.225
And so this individual, he went
out and said, I'm going to make

01:12:42.225 --> 01:12:43.685
something positive of this.

01:12:43.735 --> 01:12:46.685
And he started these mental health
walks that they do every, every Sunday.

01:12:46.685 --> 01:12:49.115
Of course, now he's going to have
a little bit of a recovery time.

01:12:49.845 --> 01:12:53.985
Um, maybe I should get him a subscription
to metal while he's in the hospital.

01:12:54.815 --> 01:12:56.955
They're recovering to help
with the, uh, the meditation.

01:12:57.595 --> 01:13:00.095
Neil Smith: Well, you know, just
people are using it for that.

01:13:00.495 --> 01:13:00.825
It's good.

01:13:00.825 --> 01:13:02.685
And you know, as I say,
that's what we're all about.

01:13:02.695 --> 01:13:03.435
You know, it's about.

01:13:04.225 --> 01:13:06.655
You know, for me it was my,
it was my personal journey.

01:13:06.655 --> 01:13:11.345
You know, I found these tools, you know,
I started meditating at the age of 11 to

01:13:11.705 --> 01:13:15.125
cope with the neurological illness that
I had, you know, which made, which I have

01:13:15.125 --> 01:13:18.725
still have, but just doesn't present,
but which was made me shake really badly.

01:13:18.725 --> 01:13:20.735
When I was a kid, it was
called benign intention tremor.

01:13:20.735 --> 01:13:24.275
So by the time I was 11, I couldn't get
a teaspoon of sugar into a cup of tea.

01:13:24.275 --> 01:13:25.145
My hands would shake so

01:13:25.145 --> 01:13:25.505
Travis Bader: badly.

01:13:25.505 --> 01:13:26.585
It's hereditary, isn't it?

01:13:27.225 --> 01:13:29.525
That's a hereditary disease, isn't it?

01:13:29.885 --> 01:13:30.605
It's hereditary.

01:13:30.625 --> 01:13:31.655
My uncle has it, yeah.

01:13:32.185 --> 01:13:33.335
How's your uncle dealing with it?

01:13:33.535 --> 01:13:34.815
Is it similar?

01:13:35.775 --> 01:13:40.515
Neil Smith: Uh, so, you know, my
uncle is still very visible in him.

01:13:40.985 --> 01:13:41.275
Yeah.

01:13:41.975 --> 01:13:47.525
Uh, when I was 11, it
was very visible in me.

01:13:48.225 --> 01:13:53.005
He went to, you know, to seek out
kind of anything we can do about it.

01:13:53.685 --> 01:13:57.870
And, you know, met a doctor who
said, well, It's an untreatable

01:13:57.870 --> 01:14:00.100
disease theoretically, but there's
this thing called meditation.

01:14:00.100 --> 01:14:04.860
We've heard of that that might help
with him And so he came back and gave

01:14:04.860 --> 01:14:09.430
me some tapes, you know And I started
meditating every day and that's how I

01:14:09.430 --> 01:14:14.130
got into it and it completely transformed
my my shaking I stopped shaking.

01:14:14.220 --> 01:14:18.250
I should have you know, my
rights be shaking all the time.

01:14:18.250 --> 01:14:18.520
It's not

01:14:18.520 --> 01:14:19.860
Travis Bader: crazy the power of the brain

01:14:21.055 --> 01:14:22.135
Neil Smith: Yeah, it's
the power of the brain.

01:14:22.135 --> 01:14:22.195
Yeah.

01:14:22.290 --> 01:14:22.530
Mm-Hmm.

01:14:23.270 --> 01:14:25.695
. So that transform, that's
how I, you know, got into it.

01:14:25.695 --> 01:14:29.385
Start with, and then the breath work,
you know, again, really quick way of

01:14:29.385 --> 01:14:31.755
transforming your physiological state.

01:14:32.405 --> 01:14:38.715
Um, uh, and hypnosis, you know,
was I got to through having

01:14:38.715 --> 01:14:40.275
depression, that been my way there.

01:14:40.335 --> 01:14:43.365
So all of these things are things
that work for me in my life.

01:14:44.095 --> 01:14:49.335
And so, you know, I'm just really proud
and honored that I'm able to share them

01:14:49.335 --> 01:14:50.745
with other people and that they're.

01:14:51.080 --> 01:14:54.260
Having a positive effect, you know,
we're not going to get everything right

01:14:54.540 --> 01:14:58.550
in the first but people are responding

01:14:58.550 --> 01:15:02.370
Travis Bader: Well, is there anything
else that we should be talking about that?

01:15:02.370 --> 01:15:03.420
We haven't talked about

01:15:06.060 --> 01:15:12.100
Neil Smith: Maybe why in Canada ice hockey
fights are allowed to go on for as long

01:15:12.100 --> 01:15:16.870
Travis Bader: as That's a good
question, that's a good question

01:15:17.590 --> 01:15:20.645
Neil Smith: Nothing to do with
what we're talking about Cause

01:15:20.645 --> 01:15:21.545
they just don't stop them.

01:15:21.575 --> 01:15:22.465
They don't seem to stop them.

01:15:22.465 --> 01:15:24.105
Or they, they stop them at some point.

01:15:24.135 --> 01:15:24.735
Yeah, no.

01:15:25.295 --> 01:15:25.655
Yeah.

01:15:25.965 --> 01:15:28.345
I think my son was watching
someone on YouTube the other day.

01:15:28.455 --> 01:15:28.665
You know,

01:15:28.715 --> 01:15:30.805
Travis Bader: I think the rules
are if they hit the ground, okay.

01:15:30.805 --> 01:15:31.325
It's stopped.

01:15:31.325 --> 01:15:33.655
But until then you go, I've

01:15:33.655 --> 01:15:33.935
Neil Smith: got it.

01:15:33.935 --> 01:15:34.235
Right.

01:15:34.465 --> 01:15:35.355
Until they hit the ground.

01:15:35.855 --> 01:15:36.015
Yeah.

01:15:36.315 --> 01:15:37.815
Travis Bader: Here's an unpopular opinion.

01:15:37.875 --> 01:15:41.825
I'm sure, like you mentioned earlier
about men, they can only, uh,

01:15:42.715 --> 01:15:47.685
generally speaking, the emotion that
they're encouraged to share is anger.

01:15:48.685 --> 01:15:49.025
That's right.

01:15:49.095 --> 01:15:51.125
And there's some people who would
say that and make small show.

01:15:51.640 --> 01:15:58.210
Mixed martial arts and jujitsu is just
a, uh, legitimizing male touching where

01:15:58.210 --> 01:16:02.190
women, it's okay for them to hug and
interact and they'll do their hair.

01:16:02.440 --> 01:16:06.690
This is a way that men can interact
because, and I know I'll catch a

01:16:06.690 --> 01:16:10.020
lot of heat from some people who are
right into it, but they say, Hey, the.

01:16:10.325 --> 01:16:13.285
Big, a draw for some people, aside
from the fact that, you know, it's

01:16:13.295 --> 01:16:17.105
good in physical conditioning, mental
conditioning, you get, uh, some skills

01:16:17.105 --> 01:16:21.845
you can take away to be a protector,
but you're forming social bonds

01:16:21.945 --> 01:16:25.445
with other men in a way that would
not be socially acceptable outside

01:16:25.445 --> 01:16:25.835
Neil Smith: of that.

01:16:25.955 --> 01:16:26.295
Yeah.

01:16:26.295 --> 01:16:30.705
I think, I think, you know, I think that,
um, you know, so I know a few people

01:16:30.755 --> 01:16:34.675
who do MMA, I think they probably, they
probably agree that that brotherhood,

01:16:34.675 --> 01:16:36.125
if you like, is, is very strong.

01:16:36.365 --> 01:16:39.024
There's a lot of respect in
that community, you know.

01:16:39.685 --> 01:16:44.095
You don't get, you know, it's, you
tend not to get people with big egos.

01:16:44.095 --> 01:16:46.485
You know, it's kinda like, you know, okay.

01:16:46.485 --> 01:16:49.515
You know, top performers,
maybe , but you know, in general.

01:16:49.545 --> 01:16:49.635
Mm-Hmm.

01:16:50.085 --> 01:16:51.345
, the guys who are doing it.

01:16:52.065 --> 01:16:52.515
Yeah.

01:16:52.520 --> 01:16:53.745
You know, there's a community there.

01:16:53.745 --> 01:16:55.515
They feel really passionate
about it, you know?

01:16:56.335 --> 01:17:04.195
Um, you know, I, I, I, I, I know somebody
who, who's a, an ex alcoholic who, you

01:17:04.195 --> 01:17:10.275
know, just went to, you know, afterwards,
kind of just went to AA meetings.

01:17:10.940 --> 01:17:13.989
and MMA classes.

01:17:13.990 --> 01:17:16.450
That's where he got his community from.

01:17:16.450 --> 01:17:19.129
That's where he kind of, do you know,
that's where he got his strength from.

01:17:19.130 --> 01:17:20.380
Both of those are communities, you know.

01:17:20.410 --> 01:17:20.890
Very much so.

01:17:21.120 --> 01:17:26.130
So yeah, so there's, so yeah, well,

01:17:26.160 --> 01:17:29.730
Travis Bader: I'm going to put some
links up to the app and, uh, make sure

01:17:29.730 --> 01:17:32.290
people have information to the things
that we're talking about in here.

01:17:32.940 --> 01:17:36.730
Uh, Neil, thank you so much for
taking the time to be on this podcast.

01:17:36.730 --> 01:17:38.240
I really enjoy getting to know you better.

01:17:39.370 --> 01:17:42.300
Neil Smith: I have to
Travis myself and you,

01:17:46.170 --> 01:17:48.730
it's been, it's been a delight,
you've been a great host.

01:17:49.015 --> 01:17:52.815
So I'm gonna retreat into my evening and
you're gonna get on with your morning.

01:17:52.815 --> 01:17:53.445
Yeah, exactly.

01:17:53.445 --> 01:17:54.245
I loved it