Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
Here on Equine Assisted World.
We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and,
established in the equine assisted field.
This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be
physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have.
These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show
Welcome back to equine assisted world where we talk to people at the cutting
edge of this Can't really even call it an industry this Practice the service
this way of looking at the world of how horses interact with humans And
make them feel better basically We look at it from the horse angle, we look
at it from the human angle, we look at it from the body angle, we look at
it from the nervous system angle, and we look at it from the brain angle.
And for those of you who know, a little bit about the approach, with
our own methods, , horseboy method, movement method, and so on, , you'll
No, it's very, , neuroscience based.
It's very brain based, but we're not neuroscientists.
We just stumbled into something that, we had explained to us why
it was working by neuroscientists.
It's relatively rare that we get an actual neuroscientist, , here, , in front of us.
they tend to sit in, special neuroscientist kennels in universities
and you don't really get access to them.
You have to go through.
all sorts of, wire and, , locked gates and things like that.
But we managed to break one out of, of the, , Of the ivory tower
and bring it to you guys to listen.
So we're very, very lucky.
We've got Dr.
Steven Peters here, who's a unique individual in many, many ways, because
not only, , is he a brain scientist and a doctor, , and, but he also is, has autism.
, and he's also a very accomplished horseman.
And has been working in the field of equine assisted stuff in
general, as well as horsemanship in general for many, many years.
And so he's in a unique position to really, , enlighten us on a lot of
things that a lot of us wonder about.
Because let's face it, when you're working with a human or whether
you're working with a horse.
If you're working with any sentient being, pretty much, you're working with the
brain, that's what you're working with.
You might want your horse to do a half pass, but first
you've got to access the brain.
You might want, , this, A client or service user that you're working
with to, do to participate in a, in a, in an activity that is
going to have a beneficial effect.
Well, that's only going to happen if you can reach the brain.
Yet the brain is the thing that we are taught the least about, in most of our,
training, whether we are teachers, whether we're therapists, whether we're, even,
you know, people in the medical field, they don't get an awful lot of brain
science unless they go looking for it.
So we went looking for it.
And here we have Dr.
Steven Peter.
So Dr.
Peter, Dr.
Steve, thanks so much for coming on.
Who are you?
Tell us who you are.
Dr. Steven Peters: Well, Rupert, I'm glad to be a part of your.
Your program here.
I am a neuroscientist, and I'm glad you brought that whole idea
up about neuroscientists coming out of the, their ivory tower.
In fact, that sort of drove me in my, in my horse work.
I was a human neuroscientist and I assessed brain functioning and ran memory
clinics and, in a clinic for brain health, big hospital based clinics.
But I always had horses.
And so I always looked at them from that neurological vantage point.
You know, every mammal has a, a nervous system and that's
what we communicate with.
I guess a big frustration.
was talking to people in the horse world who assumed that horses
perceive the world as we do.
And if you just stop for a second and think, You know, the, the shape of
their pupil, the sounds that they bring in, the mechanoreceptors in their skin,
they can't perceive a world that we perceive, but we use the human brain as
a, as a standard to compare the horse to.
So people would say crazy things like that horses.
stubborn.
It knows better.
It's disrespectful.
You know, when a horse was simply being a horse and the person lacked
the communication skills to connect with the horse and understand
that language, with the horse.
So I I wanted to find somebody who saw horses enough horses,
it would give me some good data.
You can't do anything in science with small numbers.
So I'd look through the peer reviewed literature and I'd see Maybe six
horses and they were all Pasafinos and they were all in a stable
and they were all receiving the same food, you know, grain, etc.
And, and you can't generalize from that sample out into the world of, of horses,
but you'd see research that would, would seem to indicate that that was the case.
So I got frustrated even with the science side of things.
So Martin Black, for those who don't know, is a fifth generation cowboy
and has spent his lifetime working with horses, as has his family.
In fact, Martin's family has supplied horses for almost every
war that the United States has fought right up to World War Two.
So, Martin, when he was a teenager, wanted to earn extra money.
So he developed a contract colt starting business and
was starting 500 colts a year.
As a teenager.
So Martin has seen his empirical data is what he's observed again and
again was invaluable huge numbers.
So he and I got together.
I provided the science I would say things like do horses.
You ever see horses do this in this situation?
And he said, yeah, it took me about a thousand horses before I saw that.
How the hell do you know that?
I said, I only know that because I understand how the brain works.
And so it was both of us putting the puzzle pieces together, his empirical
data, my scientific data, and we wrote a book, Evidence Based Horsemanship.
And then that sent me off.
I had no idea that this would catch on.
I, I was planning on, on a retirement with my dogs and my horses and, , a quiet,
contemplative, artistic life, painting and drawing and doing those things.
And that has not been the case.
you know, I've been asked, first off, By scientific groups, but then the lay
public and I found that people want to connect and understand their horses
and understand the reactions that they get with their horses and understand
how it's two nervous systems coming together, the human and the horse
that the interaction is so important.
So these programs follow steps ABC and D are just so rigid and sometimes crazy.
You know, I'd ask people, why does your horse do that well.
There are right brain introverted Sagittarius.
I have all these charts and graphs that I spent money for to show me this.
so for me, it just seems so far out there and, and so confusing.
To the public and if it's confusing to the public, whatever they present
is going to be confusing to the horse.
And, you know, I really felt the horse was getting a disservice.
So I've sort of been on this mission of providing information about the horse's
nervous system and What we do, we do brain dissections and I show people all
the connections, with a horse, which can be quite profound for somebody to
hold an organ that it controls, like, like you said, Rupert, everything that
that horse perceives and does and learns, you know, if it kicks it bucks, it
bolts, it grazes, has to be processed through the brain and the nervous system.
So understanding what's under the hood.
It is a really a, key step in understanding the horse as a,
as a whole in a different level, a whole different level than
just making the horse do things.
Rupert Isaacson: Here's the question.
I want to ask you a bunch of things from this.
But something that comes up, immediately is, I think it is true to say that you
can generalize some aspects of horse training, otherwise people would not ever
have been able to train horses, including Martin Black, would not have been able to
start all these colts, nor his family, you know, for the army, et cetera.
However, I think, yes, it's certainly true that even if we get horses
to do things, we misunderstand.
their motives, their reactions, their, it's hard for us to, to
judge their well being outside of their physical well being.
the first question that arises is if it's so flawed traditionally how we've been
approaching horses and horse training.
Just gonna play devil's advocate for a moment.
Why is it so effective?
Because we've done, we've, we've done amazing things with horses
over the centuries, without a doubt.
what's the what's the disconnect?
What's what's wrong?
Dr. Steven Peters: Let me ask you.
Do you really think we've been that effective?
It's a good question.
Here would be my argument is that, you know, horses are, are, you can
make them do things and you can turn them into robotic animals actually,
and lose that, that connection.
So you don't have a communication.
For example, if you're starting a colt, and, and this is what
Martin and I have come upon.
If you're starting a colt.
You can be really clear in your communication if they're in the right
mental framework in order to understand what you're asking, or you can force them
where they're sympathetically aroused.
to go through emotion.
but what you're leaving your horse with, like a human to learn, we all need safety.
We have to feel safe.
We have to have a motivation to learn.
So we have to have a way to tap into dopamine.
and we have to have attention.
Oftentimes when you're getting out of after your horse or trying to discipline
them, you lose their attention.
They check out.
on you, or if you have their attention, they're not feeling safe if you're
forcing them to do something.
So you end up with neuronal bits and fragments that the horse has to try to
struggle to put together because they're not in the right neurochemical state.
In other words, it's, it's a, it's a noise to signal ratio problem.
If you've got lots of noise in their nervous system, then they've
got a hunt for that signal.
And they may or may not find it.
And then you have, if you have to punish them in order to make them
search even harder, yes, you can make them learn to do something, but.
They may be just reacting out of fear and that may be rote memorization that
they, they come to from constant drilling.
And if you looked at the brain that was constantly drilled, you'd find these
rigid, rigid neuronal connections, because brains are live wire, as
they're based on our experience.
After you and I have this talk, if we've stimulated each other's brains, there
will be different connections in our neural network, and we will actually
be different people than we were tomorrow than we are today based on.
So in other words, if, if we can find that optimum neurochemical mix
where the horse feels safe, where the signal, no matter how subtle.
Is understood because we've reduced the noise and the noise being excess pressure
and the horse can find where that pressure is and have an internal locus of control.
They can find their way out the other side so they're under pressure.
We take the pressure away, they recognize that, and then they learn
that they can get there on their own, that if feeling stressed.
they can find that safe zone, then horses become like what Martin
calls special forces horses, those horses can sort things out and and
have a brain full of dendrites.
You take the horse out of the arena.
Brain of horse.
Never.
Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.
Brain full.
You said they have a brain special forces horses with a brain full of dander rights.
Did you say den dendrites.
Dendrite.
What are dendrites?
Tell us, tell us what dendrites are.
Dendrites
Dr. Steven Peters: are little branches off of, axons that, that branch out.
They arbor out Arborization.
And so like tree can have many, like a tree, many, many branches.
If we do rote memorization, rote training, drilling, we have a
horse that's never left the arena.
You'll have a lot of dendrites.
Well, you won't have many dendrites actually.
They'll be pruned back and you'll have very rigid neuronal connections.
If you then take that horse out for a trail ride, they may come completely
apart because they haven't built up enough options and but a horse that's
been allowed to explore a horse that's been understood and feel safe.
You know, it takes very, it takes a lot to get those horses feeling threatened,
because they can find a way out.
They can resort to other behaviors.
And those horses get us out of trouble.
Yeah.
You know, sometimes when we're too dumb to know we've got ourself
in trouble, the horse can do that because it's got all these branches
in their, in their brain connections.
So I would argue with you that have we really been effective?
No,
Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's well, in certain, in certain, well, you,
you're giving me it's interesting pause for thought because I think in
some, in some areas, yes, we have.
And it's a question then of.
This thing about dendrites, for example, that allows a layman like
me to identify why it might have worked so well in this area or
this discipline or this environment and not so well in this other one.
So I'm absolutely with you on this.
So, for example, I grew up very much with fox hunting and
fox hunting in the UK, is.
You rely on your horse 100% because the fences are can be ridiculously
big that it's not a competition.
They're not it's not nothing is prepared.
it goes on all day and you trust your horse's judgment completely
to get you out of trouble.
You might end up.
Crossing the freeway and then swimming a river and then da da da.
It's very like going to war on a horse in, in, in, in a funny way.
And if the horse isn't into it and doesn't dig it, there's, there's
just no way you're gonna get killed.
and but the, the way in which those horses were produced by those old
school horsemen that I grew and women that I grew up around was all about
helping the horse to find its way.
and there was, there, there was very naturalistic.
aspect to it in that it was all done socially.
You always did it with mental horses as the horse was coming up until
the point that the horse sort of graduated and became this meta horse.
And then later I trained with, a lot with, bullfighting mounted
bullfighting, people down in Portugal who, whether or not one
agrees that bullfighting is sort of a completely by the, by the horsemanship.
I don't bullfight.
I'm just interested in the horsemanship.
The horsemanship is, is bananas because the horse has to go in there
and make all the decisions, basically.
going like, yeah, absolutely.
Let's go.
and if there's a moment of, I don't really think so, or, I'm
scared or, I just don't want to, you're dead in two seconds because
that bull is very intelligent.
He knows how to get you up against the boards and skewer you.
And I noticed with those horses that they were joyful and humorous and
full of character and full of life, even though they were effective, they
were non robotic dressage horses.
And then I took a lot of that training over to what we do with horse boy,
bits of the Fox hunting training and bits of that bullfighting training.
And what I noticed was that you, you, your horse's brain seemed
to change in front of you.
They seem to go from, because we'd often get donation horses, which had
come out of all sorts of backgrounds who'd arrived going, what's going on.
And.
they would become within some months of this training where they're crossing
the center line of their body a lot.
But it's, it's also, a lot of outdoor time, a lot of social time,
a lot of all these other things.
And you end up with these horses that absolutely look after you
and show up as a professional.
this dendrite thing is very interesting to me because is it, this is the
question now, is it that in certain effective areas of horsemanship
where we, we as a culture have.
achieved great things with horses.
Is it because we've done it in those environments where the horse's
brain can, develop in that way?
unhindered.
and is it not working in those other environments?
Because we're blocking that and getting in the way of that.
And is that something that horsemen need to know?
Dr. Steven Peters: I believe they do need to know that.
In fact, it's not the discipline per se.
And you're right, we have been effective in many ways.
But look at the common threads there.
Those horses that you described had to solve problems on their own, right?
So they were given an internal locus of control versus being forced to do things.
They became problem solvers, which indeed started, grew a whole forest of dendrites,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
Yeah, you can't force the bullring and you can't force a horse
over a big blackthorn hedge.
It just, you just can't.
They're just not going to do it.
Yeah.
They didn't check
Dr. Steven Peters: out because they, they had an internal sense of safety too.
So something happened in, in their training that allowed them to, because
horses are constantly asking, am I safe?
Am I safe?
If we can answer that question, then, then we can draw off their
curiosity because you can't be curious if you're being threatened.
So once they become curious and can get that dopamine hit.
You know, then they seek it out.
They become super learners.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that's exactly that.
That's what I found is that the horses and it doesn't seem to matter
what background they come out of, you know, we get horses that are all
messed up in all kinds of ways because generally, you know, donation horses
are given to you for a reason, right?
And we find that with this approach.
Their personalities emerge and they become these meta horses relatively quickly.
I'd say within about 18 months or so.
but dendrites, this is phenomenal.
This is very interesting.
So basically what you're.
For my little brain to understand this, is it that I'm therefore, I'm perhaps
receiving a horse whose, dendrites have been snipped and clipped and pruned, and
it's a bit like a forest of a plantation of, planted conifers, and then those
trees are allowed to find their way within the brain, and then suddenly you have an
ecosystem with all sorts of other little species in there, and da da da, which is
now an actual forest and what it needed was to be allowed to find its ecosystem.
I love this.
I love this analogy that you have of You called it arborization.
Was that
Dr. Steven Peters: was it?
Arborization.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So tree ization.
Arbor tree, right?
Like
Dr. Steven Peters: an arbor, like branching off because these
dendrites will branch off and then rub against other branches.
So then now you have a neural network that is really wide.
And this should be really empowering to horse owners because You
actually are responsible for the creation of dendrites or the pruning
back of dendrites of your horse.
So in the right environment, those old dude ranch horses, they, they got mixed
messages, never felt safe, had no way to escape external locus of control.
Their mouths pull down at the same time.
They're getting spurred.
They check out.
and they become robotic.
And if you were to take those brains and look at them under a microscope,
you'd find just very sparse dendrites.
They don't know how to solve a problem, you know, and, and
actually their nervous systems have, for the most part, shut down.
If you take those horses and You can reach a point where you're not going to
get that good a return, you get an older horse that's constantly been traumatized,
you know, you, you're still helping them.
But, you know, if you can set up an environment where
you answer those questions.
Yes, you're safe.
Yes, you can explore.
Yes, you can problem solve, set it up for your horse to solve the problem.
You can cross the screen.
By allowing your horse to put its head down so it has binocular vision, so
it splashes in the pond a little bit.
So that, it, it heads up to that pond and then finally puts its feet
in and crosses and you can come back and do it again and again.
Or you could take that horse, get them to the edge of the stream.
When they balk, you spur them and they jump across like a frog.
That's not a water crossing.
And you could say in both instances, that's a water crossing, but I guarantee
you what happens in the horse's brain is much different than the horse.
That's been allowed to solve that problem.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
So, you know, I think a lot of, a lot of, you know, good horsemen, women have
known that yes, if you let's, let's, let's take the, water crossing analogy
from, that yes, if you allow the horse to do it in his time, if you perhaps
bring in a mentor horse, if you do all the things that set the horse up for
success, partly because it's just safer for you, and more efficient, and then
that horse goes into that trailer, goes, Through that stream, does that new
behavior, let's say, and then finds it.
It's a what's I think that that we know that there's a lot of, good horsemen and
women who would do that sort of thing.
Someone instinctively because of their empathetic natures, but it's
very, very useful for them to know why it works because this is always the
thing when when horseman is talking to horseman or therapist to therapist.
And they want to say, well, I'm, I'm advocating here for
a more empathetic approach.
And someone just says, Oh, you're just a soft hearted hippie.
If you can say, well, actually, no, I just spoke to Dr.
Steve and Dr.
Steve told me about this thing called dendrites and not dandruff, but dendrites.
And, and, these dendrites, are important because if, if the horse hasn't
got them or doesn't have enough of them, they can't make the decisions that will
you out of trouble, let alone them.
And these dendrites.
have to arborize and come into contact with other dendrites and rub against
each other and stimulate each other and create a problem solving ecosystem.
But it comes down to that's something you can explain to people and they can get.
that's
Dr. Steven Peters: fascinating.
You're exactly right.
And that there are a number of very fine horsemen.
I don't, didn't mean to just go back and just denigrate things
that had happened in the past.
And that this is an enlightened.
You know, , because there, there are wonderful horsemen and women
that understand the how they understand how to get this to happen.
They just don't have the why.
Absolutely.
And if they have the why, then they can fine tune the how.
Absolutely.
And
Rupert Isaacson: optimize it and replicate it and show other people how to do it.
okay.
So what I want to do here is I want to dial back a moment.
tell us.
what is the main difference?
What are the main differences between the horse brain and the human brain?
And what are the key ones that we need to know?
Those of us that are working with horses.
Horses
Dr. Steven Peters: do not have an area of the brain and what we call
prefrontal cortex that, that allows them to have abstract thought.
So as far as we know, they're not planning out into the future.
There aren't horses that say, Wow, I'm going to put aside this, this
flake of hay until Tuesday and come back and eat it when I'm hungrier.
Right?
So they're not forming these contingency plans that we know of.
but if they don't have abstract thought, what gets us in trouble is we do.
So let me give you an example.
It's just rampant in the horse world that people say that
horse needs to be respectful.
They're disrespectful.
Well, that's an abstract concept.
You know, the horse does not say, well, I'm going to put one over on my owner
and then go back to the pasture and have a big laugh with all the other horses
and what I've been able to all the trouble I've been able to cause here.
What actually happens is the horse is more a motor sensory creature.
And so if they're stepping into our space, It's because we're doing something
to inadvertently allow them to do that.
or we've actually trained them to do that without knowing it, but they're
just simply being a horse and basing things on the signals that we're giving.
And the reason that I'm so, hung up on this idea of respect and disrespect
is then it gives the human permission to punish the horse and discipline the
horse where I don't really know that that plays a big role in, in, In learning.
certainly that takes away the safety, et cetera.
So I think in trying to understand that the horse is a motor sensory
creature and stop putting using our big frontal lobe to put all this
abstract thought in their mind.
It clouds, our, our thinking.
So the big difference is that frontal lobe.
Otherwise, we're pretty similar.
We each have six cortical layers in our, in our brains of cells, you know,
we have a, well, actually I take that back in the horse brain, there's some,
in some areas they far exceed us.
You know, their cerebellum, the structure that hangs to the back of the
brain, is responsible for fine motor movement, timing, balance, sequencing.
You know, they have these huge limbs, and you know, they're
in a trot, just in a diagonal.
If you understood what had to happen in the brain for that to occur,
it is pretty fascinating stuff.
So, and there are olfactory bulbs for smell, which is a primitive sense.
are enormous.
If you, if you dissect out the brain, you'll find that they're
enormous and ours are like thin little shoestrings in comparison.
So, there are so many differences in the way they perceive the world.
but the main difference is that we have more white matter and more
bulk in our frontal lobes that allow us to think more abstractly.
Rupert Isaacson: Let me ask you a question on this then because I think
anyone who lives with horses, you know, there's a difference, I think,
between People who do horse horses as a hobby or a sport and people
who really, really live with horses.
not everyone who really, really lives with horses is nice to their horses,
but let's assume that many of them are.
I think that for, for a lot of us who live with our horses, we do observe behaviors
though that look rather prefrontal cortex like, for example, the sense of humor.
and you say the horse doesn't plan to put one over on you.
except when he seems to and seems to enjoy the process and
have a bit of a laugh about it.
And when he seems to do it, it to his or her herd mates as well.
if humor, for example, is perspective taking that in order to do something
because it's entertaining or funny, requires one to sort of see the
situation from the outside, what, human psychologists will call theory of mind.
I'm not going to anthropomorphize that onto the horse, but nonetheless,
definitely humor definitely sometimes now, Oh, I can, I can, I can
mess with you a little bit here.
And I have a, I have, for example, a carte blanche with my horses about messing with
me because, my horses have to be so good.
When I'm working with the clients that I have, like they've got to
be so good that I give them what I, a lot of what I call crazy time.
where they can just go really nuts on sort of playgrounds that I build for them where
they go running around socially together.
Also, they can mess with me when I'm riding them.
I have a sort of amnesty thing on them, which is if you want to kind
of run away with me a little bit, if you want to kind of throw a buck,
if you want to express yourself in a way that is humorous, have at it.
Because.
I ask you to be so good so much of the time.
Totally.
This is your time.
It's totally fair enough.
They are my anthropomorphizing that they are Exercising a sense of humor
with me and with each other or are they actually and if they are If
that's not coming from the prefrontal cortex, where's it coming from?
Dr. Steven Peters: This is the fantastic million dollar question, Rupert.
Because I've dissected out so many horse brains, and I'm amazed at the number
of convolutions and the folded gyri and sulci, which means if you ironed out
that brain, it would have a huge mass.
And...
What we've done with all animals, we treat them as lower mammals.
Why?
Because we, we, we use the standard of human intelligence, and we come up
with human tasks to measure them by.
Whereas they're, they're fantastic creatures as horses
that we underappreciate.
So as an evidence based person in my response, what I say is, well,
so far, science hasn't shown this.
In fact, most, you know, literature would show that there isn't a
prefrontal cortex in the horse.
But, you know, I would, I would say that those are arbitrary
boundaries and they change over time.
So what I tell people is.
Look at the function.
Don't look at where that boundary lies and says, well, this is prefrontal
cortex and the horse doesn't actually have one because I know over time with
the sophisticated medical instruments that we now have that I have no doubt
that we are going to find that the horse has indeed has a prefrontal cortex and
indeed is capable of of much more than we've ever given the horse credit for.
We just haven't had a good way of measuring it.
And our measurement style has been anthropomorphic.
Got it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So, so yes.
Could it be that there are parts of the horse brain that behave in a way like
a prefrontal cortex, that we just as yet can't identify, but clearly we can
see that behavior must be coming from somewhere because the, the behavior seems.
Ubiquitous, to the species that they are, they are by nature, a
very playful, species is one of the great, wonderful things about horses.
But yes, if it's not coming from prefrontal cortex,
if it's not coming from.
a human type area of the brain where we would produce that from,
or I'm going to play a joke on that person that's planning.
That's logic.
That's reason.
That's emotional regulation.
Yes, that's prefrontal cortex.
If the horse doesn't appear to have one.
It's fast.
It's intriguing to me.
What parts of the brain would be producing a similar type of response?
do you think?
Something
Dr. Steven Peters: that I think it's just a matter of where we
arbitrarily have drawn a fence line and we've come up with a criterion.
This is prefrontal cortex because we say mice have prefrontal
cortex, but we say a horse doesn't.
And I think, you know, if you go back 20 years ago when I was in school, they said,
Oh, the human brain reaches like age 25 and never ever grows any more neurons.
Right.
Well, we know that that's now false.
Yeah.
You know, and.
Oftentimes things we said 20 years ago, almost seem ludicrous now, but we held
it as if it were written in, in cement.
I like to think of things much more out of the, the box.
And I think you see the, the, behaviors you would associate
with the prefrontal cortex.
Do I have to point in the brain where that prefrontal cortex is?
Listen to this.
There's a guy Wilder Penfield.
He was a Canadian neurosurgeon.
And what he would do is he would stimulate electrically parts of people's brains.
And he might say, okay, I'm going to go on this motor, the sensory strip
here, and I'm just going to touch where, where the index finger is.
And he may touch there.
And that patient might say, well, that tingles my index finger.
Another patient, exact same area.
Cause stereotypically they can hone in right on that area.
touches them there, they say, Oh, I feel that in my wrist.
And then somebody else might say, well, I felt that up on my arm.
So what we learn is that it's not like the textbooks.
You look at a textbook and you got color coded areas of the brain.
You know, somebody who's blind, for example, that's
not just fallow back there.
The occipital lobe, you know, that occipital lobe will say, okay, since
we're not receiving input from the visual system, let's let's send
some of that to auditory system.
So we know that sometimes like blind musicians like Stevie Wonder or Ray
Orbison, it appears that they may be using a lot more of their brain
That they would be using for visual stimuli for auditory stimuli, which
may give them perfect pitch or a better understanding of auditory because
they're using so much more brain force.
So, if you look at your brain, because it's like a snowflake
your brain is not like my brain.
It's based on all your experiences, your brain is just Oregon, which
interacts with the world and creates something that helps us survive.
And.
Horses just because we're using a human measure to measure them.
I think once we find functional MRI, we can do that.
And for your listeners, that's a, that's imaging where we can
look at the brain in real time.
If we can do that with a horse and that's just down the road.
then we'll be able to see some of these prefrontal behaviors and know
exactly where that's coming from.
And indeed we may redraw the map and say, Oh, well here's, here's
the horse's prefrontal lobe.
Rupert Isaacson: So it's, it's, it's possible to say maybe
we haven't discovered it yet.
Yeah.
Because I mean, and when, when, when one observes.
horses in a very natural setting or wild horses, they clearly are making
complex decisions about that involves some planning, like when they're going
to change, pastures, when they're going to go to water, when they're
not going to go to water, being able to work around predator movements.
they don't just blindly wander into them.
They know more or less what the predator movements are
and make decisions around it.
but yes, where's it coming from?
it's really interesting that you talk, talk about Penfield, right?
there's a book I recently read.
The body has a mind of its own about body matter.
And one of the, one of the things that the authors of that book,
touched upon was that equestrians.
have a uniquely complex form of body mapping that they have to do because
they have to make the entire horse a part of their body map, but the horse
has to do the same thing to the rider.
And this is why it's sort of a miracle that the thing can even happen.
And then you've got these two completely different brains.
trying to meld, but yet it happens.
Yet this miracle happens.
if, if, if we know that there are these main differences between the horse and
the human brain, what, what do you think, is the main difference between, and then
we talk about brains being snowflakes.
My brain's not your brain.
If we can respect that there are these differences between the
horse and the human brain, what are the main differences between the
neurotypical and the autistic brain?
And then we might need to know both of those things if we're going to then
work with those populations with horses.
First we need to know, if I have a somewhat neurotypical brain, I
need to know that the horse's brain has these fundamental differences
that can give me a roadmap here.
Now I need to work with these humans.
that are like me and a little bit not like me.
And then how do I put all three of us together in a triumvirate?
Talk to us about the differences between the autistic brain
and the neurotypical brain.
If you, if you feel that there are some.
Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah.
well, one area that scientists looked at is, 37.
Brodman's area 37.
Area 37.
Now Brodman was a neuroanatomist and he mapped out something like 53
brain areas and said these areas are responsible for these, these behaviors.
we don't use it much anymore because now we found there must be about
350 different areas and it's more important how they're connected than
the job that they necessarily do.
And that that involves these dendrites long axons with white
matter wrapping myelination.
that allow us to learn.
There's some thought that this area 37.
Well, there's not thought about that because we call
it the fusiform facial area.
And when people in a functional MRI look at faces, that area lights up.
Well, it doesn't seem to light up with people who are autistic.
In fact, that area is used to interpret facial expression,
social facial expression.
And that doesn't seem to be happening with people who are autistic.
And so for me, oftentimes even people I know well, out of
context, I can't, I can't put the pieces of their face together.
I may see their eyes and their nose and, and things, but I can't put it together.
Let's say as Rupert.
But then I hear your voice and it's in context and pretty soon it all
comes together, but I get this like deer in the headlights lost look, even
with people I know sometimes where I can't put all of that together.
And then that impedes my social interaction, because I'm not picking
up all those little nuances, you know, I bore the hell out of somebody and
if everybody's yawning and, you know, or somebody's feeling threatened.
if it's only in terms of their facial expression, I may have trouble picking
that up, but oddly enough, I'm in, I recognize patterns very easily.
You know, I recognize patterns that I don't understand that
other people aren't picking up.
And so when I go out and interact with a horse, that horse is giving me all
these patterns, you know, I'm seeing, you know, where the head is, I'm seeing
where the jaw is, you know, I'm, I'm noticing how tight they are, or how,
you know, how wide their eye is.
And so, almost like in a snapshot, I picked that all up.
And I've come to think that that's, that's my neurodivergence that,
that my brain sort of works that way and automatically sees patterns.
I think that's why I love nature and I'm often a remote setting.
Where I go out on hikes and I feel comfortable because I recognize all the
patterns in, in nature, and it feels very at home like, but you send me to
a cocktail party and I am at a loss.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So, although I guess one could argue that a cocktail party is part
of nature if humans are natural.
Yeah, let's let's let's replace a campfire.
but I guess at a campfire.
You have the sort of option of engaging directly in the banter
and the small talk or, you know, hanging back a bit and looking at
the stars, but feeling connected.
Whereas in a cocktail party, you're either doing the cut and thrust
rapier, you know, fencing of wit, or you're not, and it's one or the other.
And so you're either in or you're out, whereas in a more naturalistic.
Social setting.
you could have that going on and people with neurodivergence being able to
be part of it as much or as little as they wanted, perhaps, you know,
Dr. Steven Peters: there's so much so many idiosyncrasies and so many
things that in this neurodivergence and it's different for for all of us.
But that's why my wife is often saying, you know, are you just being
an asshole or is this your, your.
You know, your autism,
Rupert Isaacson: my mom, my mom, listen to me, Dr.
Freud, my mom, my wife says exactly the same thing to me, but
Dr. Steven Peters: I can be laser focused hours yet.
I'm easily distractible.
So there's all these, you know, there's all these.
inconsistencies.
But when you, your original question was about the horse for, for me, where
sensory overload can be a problem.
I like for my messages to be very clear.
And so I'm always trying to open up an avenue.
And reduce the noise.
I don't want sensory overload, so I need to reduce the noise
so I can understand the signal.
And so I, I interact with my horse that way.
Am I bringing noise into our relationship?
I have to be more clear in, in my communication with
you so that we can connect.
And I have to reduce the noise so I can understand what message
you're sending back to me.
And so it's this sensory communication between both of us that resets
both of our nervous systems.
At least that's the way it works for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you feel that, because you do have trouble, processing,
at least processing quickly, the multifarious, nuances of the human
facial emotional thing that it then makes it easier for you to look at
the emotional patterns in horses because they're not expressing it
so much through the face like we do.
It's not that they're not expressing it through the face, of course
they are to some degree, but not to the insane degree that we do.
Do you think that that makes it easier for you to observe the patterns?
Dr. Steven Peters: You know, that's a good question.
And, and, you know, some of this isn't even science related because
I don't know if I can articulate.
necessarily the, the communication so much you'd have to see it and say,
okay, I see Steve with his horses and I, I have an idea of what, how
they're communicating with, with each other because of how they're reacting.
I'll give you an example is that, I insisted when I was seeing patients
of going out into the waiting room and getting the patient.
So they're not aware that they're being, you know, assessed at that time.
So their, their guard is down a little bit.
And that I'd watch and they would stand up maybe slowly, maybe shuffle a little bit.
Maybe they'd have reduced eye blink.
I'd almost have that patient diagnosed before I ever reached the exam room.
And it was almost a snapshot.
Of understanding, but I didn't get that in our interaction with looking,
you know, recognizing in their face.
It was more like a whole pattern that came at me out at once.
And so it, it was just, it was an understanding that was immediate.
And with the horse, I don't know that I can point out, oh, it's,
you know, it's a thrashing tail.
It's the head up above the withers.
It's more just an immediate snapshot that.
And you get a comfort level when you know you're accurate when you know
that the horse knows, and you know that you understand that that horse.
It's almost immediate but indescribable if you're going to try to for me
to try to break it down into into science so I don't talk a lot about
training the horse necessarily other than just setting up the best optimum
environment for brain to work.
Thank you.
And, and then I understand that my autistic brain is, is
different than most neurotypical.
So I have to be careful that my esoteric experiences aren't, so much different
than my audiences that they don't quite grasp what I'm trying to get across.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that, people that are running,
therapeutic writing programs, who obviously are going to have quite a
lot of neurodivergent people there?
And a lot of people with autism.
is there perhaps a, an untapped, talent pool among these autists, particularly
as they reach adulthood, if they spend enough time with the horses to come in as
the trainers and maintainers of the horses that are doing this job, because the
neurotypical people that are running these programs could then benefit from this.
good pattern recognition that a lot of these autistic people, once
they've got good familiarity with the horse could share with them and
then bring them in less as clients and more as part of the team.
Is that
Dr. Steven Peters: something that's, that's a very interesting idea.
Yeah.
And, you know, we would be giving credit for, for something versus having it be
unexplained and then treating the person as if that talent wasn't worthwhile.
But, you know, putting that to use, I look at things sometimes neurochemically
and you and I've had this discussion kind of, you know, we've touched on this
before, but there are some scientists that, that wonder whether Horses over
time haven't developed more serotonin receptors to allow them to be more
emotionally balanced so they can interact with us, and survive in our environment.
And so, I don't know that, that the autistic person's interaction with a horse
isn't neurochemically setting the, their situation where they're actually on a
cellular level, actually regulating each other's serotonin receptors, which creates
an emotional balance between both animals.
Rupert Isaacson: That certainly seems to be what in layman's terms would be, the
horse just seems to like them, right?
You know, you often observe this.
And for many of us, well, that's a good enough thing.
But again, getting back to where we were before with dendrites and axons, it's
really good to know why things work.
So what you just touched on there.
So let's say for example, if domesticated mammals in general, probably, have
learned to evolve their way into better serotonin, production so that they
can deal with these funky monkeys that.
have life or death power over them, i e us.
and therefore, if the funky monkeys that then come into their purview, who
seem more able to observe and interact with their patterns in a way that makes
sense to that animal and therefore brings 'em to better point of safety,
if it's coming down to co-regulation of each other's, serotonin again, I
think what's wonderful about that is.
It allows one to say, well, and perhaps it works because of this.
It's not just that the horse irrationally likes them.
It's got this neurochemical component.
So therefore, once again, we can regulate, we can replicate it.
this is something one could perhaps begin to develop or explore in programs.
Because one of the things I'm very interested in is, is, is
getting away from the paradigm of.
I'm the service provider and you're the service user, you know, I'm the therapist
in your that it's never like that.
We know it's never like that.
you know, I learned more about horses through working with my
autistic son than I ever did.
before I started working with him, he opened up vast horizons of new knowledge.
For me, also about the brain, blah, blah, blah, blah, complete two way street.
He completely made me understand about oxytocin and BDNF and other things,
which I'd like to get into in a minute.
I do feel that we have a paradigm within mental health that is exactly
the same as our paradigm that you were talking about with some of the
less good things of horse training, which is basically a power dynamic.
And although that's understandable and somewhat natural to our species, it
behoves us to try to get beyond it.
When you bring, when you make those, neurochemical, succinct, easily repeatable
phrases like, could it be that their neuro, that their serotonin levels are co
regulating for this reason, and that this population of human and this population
of horse have a good chemistry this way.
People can understand that and it's useful.
Dr. Steven Peters: You know, there's a scientist, Jeffrey Gray at King's
College in London, and he was looking at activation of the amygdala.
And that's a structure in the brain that we've associated with fear.
And remember earlier I talked about having to feel safe.
The horse constantly asking, am I safe?
And you really can't learn.
Even humans, if you think you're going to be beaten up by a gang member after
class, then you certainly can't be focusing on your trigonometry homework.
So what he found was that those mammals that had lower serotonin
levels had a more active, amygdala.
And those mammals with higher levels of serotonin had a less active, it
dampened the activation of the amygdala.
So it made us, it, it plays a chemical role in, in dampening down fear, thus
allowing interaction between two.
And this is more complicated than, than we look.
This is sort of simplified, but if you think about it, It's always a
neurochemical cocktail of some kind.
That's how Martin Black and I look at it.
And he says, you know, you're, you're actually a bartender when you're
dealing with these horses, because if you have too much norepinephrine, then
they can't get the norepinephrine will have them too sympathetically aroused.
So they can't become curious, right?
If you have too much oxytocin, then they're not going to
want to be away from the herd.
because they're going to want to feel that huge dose of oxytocin
where they feel safe and bonded.
So you have to almost introduce a new chemical.
Well, how about let's go out for this trail ride and I'll give you
some problems to solve and you'll get some big dopamine hits along the way.
which will then, you know, counteract that withdrawal symptom of oxytocin.
So it's always this neurochemical balance.
And if we can find those ways to, to, work with that system and
mix the best cocktails, then we're going to have the best outcomes.
Rupert Isaacson: I 100% agree.
so for example, when we were trying to understand why First, my son
and then other kids were becoming verbal and communicative, who
were, who were severely autistic and severely uncommunicative on horses
in collection, in soft collection.
again and again and again and again and again.
a certain number of neuroscientists pointed out an oxytocin connection there
and also oxytocin, helping with bringing down the amygdala response, the fight,
flight, freeze response and the cortisol.
stress hormone blocking the intellect.
Okay.
And then, we had it explained to us that although most, hormones are producing
relatively localized areas of the body, oxytocin, the communication hormone, as
well as the pleasure hormone get will be produced in your gut in all your other
organs as well, make its way up to the pituitary gland and sing like a choir.
and get this even bigger effect because it, for various
reasons, our bodies want it.
but that at the same time, because of this activation of the gut through the
hip rocking, you're getting serotonin.
And then at the, at the same time, you're getting dopamine as
you say, because there's, you're now problem solving as you go.
Even if the problem solving is simply finding your balance, let
alone actually, an activity.
And then of course there's endorphins kicking in.
And so, yes, I totally agree with you.
with horses now and when we're working with people and I'm not just talking
autistic people with myself, I'm always looking exactly as you say, like a
bartender to, to dose myself on these, neurochemicals, which I know my body will
produce or will be produced in the horse's body or will be produced in, in the, in
the, client's body or the kid's body.
You, however, mentioned a word.
That I don't know.
So I'm gonna ask you to repeat it.
Neuro
Dr. Steven Peters: Oh, no, epinephrine.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's, let's, let's just spell that out for me,
cause I'm, I'm writing it down.
Down.
N o r
Dr. Steven Peters: n o r e P i N
Rupert Isaacson: e P i N.
Dr. Steven Peters: Let me write it down.
No, N oei.
N e
Rupert Isaacson: E p.
I N E
Dr. Steven Peters: t h t h e r I n.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
That's a, that's a doozy.
That sounds like a, a challenge.
Thailand or something.
Wow.
Nof.
Norepinephrine.
Norepinephrine nor, no, no.
Pin, no.
I think, I think I've written it down wrong.
Can you do it?
Sorry.
my listeners, but please bear with us because this, this is something we need.
Can, can you spell it out for me again please?
Yeah.
Dr. Steven Peters: N O.
R.
N.
O.
R.
E.
P.
I.
Rupert Isaacson: P.
I.
P.
H.
Dr. Steven Peters: P.
H.
E.
R.
I.
N.
E.
R.
I.
N.
E.
Nora.
Nora Epinephrine.
Rupert Isaacson: Nora Epinephrine.
Yeah.
Okay.
Talk to us about
Dr. Steven Peters: that.
What is that?
Yeah, that plays a major role in the, in the nervous system.
We need a small amount of Nora Epinephrine to alert, What
it'll do, it sensitizes neurons.
It sensitizes the amygdala.
It's a sensitizer.
So if we have a
Rupert Isaacson: small amount mean, what does that mean?
What does that mean?
We don't even know what that means.
Dr. Steven Peters: What it means it makes neurons more active.
Okay.
And turbo boost fuel need a small amount of norepinephrine
so that I can pay attention.
So my brain can say, Hey, this is important.
I better focus on this.
But if I get too much.
Right.
Then it's going to turn into, to cortisol and run that entire circuitry.
Will
Rupert Isaacson: it cortisol or could it equally turn into something
better, something more pleasurable?
Or will it always go to...
If it's at
Dr. Steven Peters: low levels, it can turn into something more pleasurable.
So let's say I have a low level of norepinephrine that's allowing me to
pay attention to what you're telling me.
You tell me something then that is so interesting, it creates a dopamine hit
on my brain and actually takes a couple of neurons and, and fastens them together
to broaden my, my neural network.
And I get a dopamine hit and it feels good.
And the norepinephrine helped me focus my attention long enough, because your
brain is only made up of what you've ever paid attention to in your life.
That's why your brain is so different than mine.
It's what you focused on, paid attention and your norepinephrine
helped you to do that.
However, if I had too much norepinephrine in my system, it
would sensitize the amygdala and I'd be worried and I'd be stressed.
And I would, I would come apart and under that, that constant high
dose of norepinephrine, actually it would shrink the window of
what I would be able to tolerate.
And so my nervous system would actually reset and I'd be hyper alert, worried
all the time, anxious, filled with anxiety and flooded with norepinephrine.
What
Rupert Isaacson: what creates and where, what creates norepinephrine
and where is it created in the
Dr. Steven Peters: body?
Thank you.
norepinephrine is created in an area called the locus
coeruleus in the brainstem.
The locus coeruleus, it's Latin for blue area.
because that's what it looked like when they died it and, and, and looked at it.
So I need some, but it quickly gets to the amygdala, it quickly gets to
the hippocampus, and the hippocampus is a structure related to memory.
So I don't want to necessarily be sensitizing the hippocampus.
Amygdala and the hippocampus at the same time, because then
I'm creating a fear memory.
I'm creating a trauma, even a small trauma, but a trauma nonetheless.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so how do we, how do we what, what causes the
norepinephrine to be, produced?
Like is, is it movement based, sympathetic arousal.
Yeah, but arousal, there's many, there's so many forms of arousal and
epinephrine before the arousal or is the arousal the cause of the norepinephrine?
Dr. Steven Peters: Let's say I'm constantly in my system going to
have some degree of norepinephrine unless I must sleep on my feet.
So I get my horse for example, and I take them out to teach them something.
And I noticed that.
their head starts to come up above the withers, that their eyes get wide.
So I say, you know what, we're reaching a point where we're getting
too much norepinephrine here.
I'm going to let you reset your nervous system.
So I step back, I pause, the horse's head comes down, they start to lick
and chew, they start to feel more comfortable, then we re approach that.
And each time we do that, we widen that window of tolerance so
norepinephrine on board, It's not overwhelming the system, but let's
say I don't answer that question.
My horse's head comes above the withers.
The eyes get a little wide.
I keep pressuring my horse, their head now comes way up.
I see these tendons tighten in their jaw.
They start to look for a way to escape.
So they're already starting to think fight or flight.
And if I keep pressuring the horse, trying to teach them something in
that state, they're now flooded with too much norepinephrine.
I know it's starting to go to the amygdala.
And I know that the next response, if they're more threatened is, is a
default to fight or flight cortisol.
So it's an art of learning how to set and reset the nervous system
enough times so that the horse knows that they can come down the other
side, find that pause and relax.
before the next.
It's almost like you.
If you were on a diving board, if I let you walk out there and then walk back,
you have an internal locus of control.
You sit on the edge of the diving board, dangle your feet over.
And then you sit on the board and fall into the pool and then
eventually dive off pretty soon.
You're doing great.
And your window of tolerance is pretty wide.
So you're, you're feeling really comfortable with that.
You had some norepinephrine aboard that made you, well, I better pay attention.
I don't want to fall off the board.
I better pay attention.
I don't want to just drop off the edge of the board and suck up a bunch of water.
But what if I stood behind you and I kept pushing you and you start to dig your
feet in now you're so sympathetically aroused you're filled with norepinephrine
and then let's say I throw you in and you take in a bunch of water in your
lungs and you get up and you're coughing.
Now, that whole situation has become traumatized so that
standing on that diving board is a different experience the next day.
based on neurochemically what I've done to you because of what neurochemicals
were at what level of arousal.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So basically it sounds like you've just explained from a neuroscientist point of
view, the concept of less is more and the concept of softly, softly catchy monkey.
And although those are common sense things, because we observed that if
you don't do them, things go wrong.
Again, it's really helpful to be able to say.
Look, the reason why you don't want to push for that extra step in the
training, or the reason why you want to now leave the horse alone a little
bit, or the reason why you want to leave that kid alone a little bit now.
Or the reason why you want to let them come to a concept as gradually as
possible is that you're avoiding this neuropinephrine thing, which they need
just enough of to pay attention and learn.
But if we push it over the edge, we're going to fuck up everything
we're trying to learn because cortisol is going to come in and
just stomp on it like a big old boot.
And then we'll have to start all over again from the beginning.
This.
People can get because I think I think what's tricky is that yeah Less is more
and softly softly catchy monkey and go gradually and all of these things.
Yes, they're common sense however, there are only common sense to people who have
a sort of innate personality that way and Others who don't who are very impatient.
I've been very impatient in my younger life you come to it
by making a bunch of mistakes.
However, if we're trying to help people not to have to make quite the
same number of mistakes that I made, say, it's useful to have these terms.
because, because they're understandable.
So, norepinephrofen.
Dr. Steven Peters: Norepinephrine.
Rupert Isaacson: Norepinephrine.
Let's say it three times.
Norepinephrine.
Now it's in my brain.
Norepinephrine.
You got it.
Dr. Steven Peters: and when we're done, go look it up and then you'll see the
difference between pad and adrenaline.
It's one to put in your toolbox and, and, and be
Rupert Isaacson: aware of.
Is norepinephrine a, a, a hormone or is it a...
Dr. Steven Peters: Yes, it's a hormone and a neurotransmitter as many of these
Rupert Isaacson: are.
So therefore it's also a protein, would that be correct?
Yeah.
Okay, okay.
And.
In small doses good and in big doses not so good basically, right
Dr. Steven Peters: if i'm sensitizing Your brain, I don't
want to hypersensitize you right?
And it's interesting that you brought up if you, if you screw it up, you
have to go back to the beginning.
Yeah.
If you screw it up, you can't get back to the beginning.
You were at before, you know, you're actually two steps behind
the beginning when you come back
Rupert Isaacson: at it.
You've created trauma.
I mean, this, I, I saw so often in, the worst kind of behavioral, approaches
with autistic kids when my son was very young and these kids were just.
Would get to a point where they were trying to climb through the wall or
climb through the door or climb over the person and you had exactly the
same thing being said by the therapist that people would say about horses
See, they're being disrespectful.
They're being this they're being that and saying no, man, they're just terrified
They're just terrified and I remember thinking Wow as a horseman if I was in a
rampen with a horse and they were trying to climb out over the fucking fence to get
out when I'm trying to do something, then presumably I should change something about
what I'm doing or I'm going to get killed.
Forget the horse.
I'm going to get killed.
but of course, because it's only a child and we're adults and we
can overall Children with our greater physical strength and size.
This doesn't come into the picture until the child gets big
enough to to physically hurt you.
And then, of course, they resort to drugs to, Control that behavior.
And so it seems to me that the problem is always about the idea of
trying to control behavior, right?
Dr. Steven Peters: Exactly.
We want to be in charge of this because we feel uncomfortable.
It's getting out of control.
So I'm going to control.
But one of the most stressful things that you can do to a horse
is restrain them confinement.
If you look at, at when most of the wrecks occur, it's that yank
around, I'm clamped onto the horse.
I'm, you know, I'm forcing the horse.
So restraint actually increases sympathetic arousal instead of
brings it back, back down again.
I think one of the things most missing because we're egotistical,
we want to make things happen.
Is there that we don't use the pause enough and allowing the nervous system
to reset the brain is fantastic.
It can replay things that happen.
Well, and make those neuronal connections.
All we can do is interrupt those if we keep drilling and grinding
away without allowing the brain to assimilate those in a good way.
And sometimes the greatest gift to give our horse is space.
Rupert Isaacson: 100%.
You know, you're probably aware of the legendary, , Portuguese, , horse trainer
from the 20th century, Nuno Oliveira.
And one of his great quotes was, , when your horse has made a really good
try dismount, don't end the session, smoke a cigarette down to its butt,
take all your attention away from the horse and allow him to simply.
Pause, then remount and go on.
And I remember reading that and as an autism dad go, well,
that makes sense actually.
So I started doing that and I don't smoke.
So what I do is let's say I'm training something.
He was using the PF.
, so something that's complex where the horse has to give, you know, really a
hundred percent attention and a hundred percent buy in, , in order to pull
everything in the brain body together.
And, . So now, particularly when I'm training anything complex like that, I
look for, I feel for a try, a good try.
And then I do exactly, I dismount, but I don't smoke.
So I do texts.
I'll pull my phone out and I'll look in a different direction, but I
hang with the horse at his shoulder.
And I might keep a hand on him or, or, or scratch him or whatever.
But basically my attention has gone away.
And I answer a couple of emails and actually my attention does go away because
suddenly I do need to answer this email.
And I, what I realized is it works for me too.
Gets me out of that neuro epiprofen over aroused thing, because we know that
we, when we train horses, we ourselves as funky monkeys can get a little
bit intense about the whole thing.
And I think the same is true.
Obviously, when we're working.
As in, in a therapeutic environment, we're so, for the best of reasons, wanting
to get a good result and deliver that.
Sometimes we can push, , and to be able to put it in those terms, neuro ibuprofen,
, and say, let's try and avoid that.
Let's allow pauses.
So again, when you go to
Dr. Steven Peters: sleep that night, there's a neurochemical
acetylcholine your brain.
How do you spell that?
Boy, you're giving me some real.
Rupert Isaacson: Acetylcholine.
Acetylcholine was a waitress, I think, at a diner that I used to go to in Virginia.
Acetylcholine.
Okay.
Uh,
Dr. Steven Peters: A C e A c e t y t Y l t y l c h o l i n
Rupert Isaacson: e c h o l i n E.
I'm gonna read it back to you.
A C e t y l c h o l i n E.
That's it.
Acetylcholine.
Okay.
Acetylcholine.
Tell me about this acetylcholine thing.
What's this acetylcholine thing?
Dr. Steven Peters: You know, when you learn something, your brain just doesn't,
, just pop up neurons any old where, right?
As you sleep, you, you'll prune off and weekend synapses that
aren't helpful to you as you, as you get better at doing something.
And the cetylcholine almost goes in like a magic marker and a highlighter.
We're going to make a connection here.
The best connection would be here.
The next best connection would be here.
And then those neurons go and connect that way.
So, what happens is, If you recall, when you first learned to ride a bicycle
and the training wheels came off, you would get reach a point of diminishing
returns trying to ride that day.
And you think I'm never going to learn this.
But then you went to sleep at night and you had a pause and
your brain got to replay this.
And acetylcholine said, no, if you would have hooked this to this, and
you would have changed this, so your neural networks actually form new
connections, the next day, somehow, magically, you've gotten better.
And all we can do is interrupt that process with the horse when they've
gotten something and understand it.
Our ego says, let's do it again, let's do it again, let's do it again.
Then they check out.
And then, then we reach diminishing returns.
Now they do it worse.
So we feel like we have to pundit, we have to get after him even more to get
back to where we were when you got it.
That's the time to pause and let the brain do its work.
And especially overnight, because if you leave them in a good neurochemical state,
the next day, they'll be twice as good.
I guarantee
Rupert Isaacson: you.
Go ahead.
Sorry.
Dr. Steven Peters: If you push it and you stress them out and you
create a trauma, you can also wire this in a way you may not want.
So that horse may be twice as bad the next day.
If you've decided you're going to create a fight.
Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Neuroplasticity can be negative as well as positive, right?
One can go in a good way.
, So, are you saying that we produce more acetylcholine at night?
Dr. Steven Peters: At night it does a certain, a different job.
We need acetylcholine, it helps us pay attention as well.
It helps us focus, because where your attention goes, this is a little, phrase
that neuroscientists use, where attention goes, neural, neural connections grow.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
, thoughts become things basically,
Dr. Steven Peters: right?
Exactly.
And when you do that, you fire that neuron and then if you fire it again
and you got it right, it stimulates a myelin wrapping that then allows
things to travel more efficiently without loss of information and faster.
So, as you rewire your brain in this fashion.
There's a, a neuroimaging called diffusion tensor imaging, and you can
look at the white matter and let's say I saw a kid who was a piano protege.
The areas of his brain that he uses to play the piano are gonna
be so puffy with white matter.
He'll have layer after layer of that wrapping on there.
This, this one, the white is the
Rupert Isaacson: wrapping.
It's, it's the insulation on the white.
It's the
Dr. Steven Peters: information highway.
That is more important in learning than necessarily the parts of the brain.
So when we point and say, Oh, look at, you know, that's the
part that works the finger.
It's better to say, this is a complex system, and it's the wiring and the
information highway that's actually.
the key to
Rupert Isaacson: the efficiency of how the information is passed along the highway.
Absolutely.
And the more insulation it has, the more myelination it has, the more of
the white matter it has insulating the wire, the smoother it's going to go.
You got it.
Okay.
So here's a question though.
Do we, do we produce more?
A
Dr. Steven Peters: acetylcholine.
Rupert Isaacson: Acetylcholine, , do we, I'm gonna do this in text action kinda.
Do we, do we all produce, do our asses produce more acetylcholine when we all,
when our asses are asleep at night?
Or do we produce an equal amount of it?
Whe whether we, awake or asleep.
Why is the sleeping part of it so important?
Dr. Steven Peters: I think it has a different job to do in
sleep because in sleep we don't have all the outside distractions
because interrupting our attention.
Acetylcholine has to help us with our attention focusing it.
But when we're asleep We don't, we don't have that same demand.
And so we can go and do our rewiring.
That's when we're assimilating all this information.
That's where some neuroscientists think our dreams are just things
that we've taken in during the day that we're then assimilating
in the, in the brain at night.
So the acetylcholine, I can't say that there's more acetylcholine produced at
night, but acetylcholine's job changes.
to okay solidifying the wiring.
Rupert Isaacson: So is acetylcholine at night when it
becomes its meta effectiveness?
That's what we call sleeping on it.
Yes.
Yeah.
Basically we want to go sleep with acetylcholine.
Dr. Steven Peters: we do okay.
We want, we wanna have a, an affair with acetacholine.
Rupert Isaacson: We wanna have an intimate relationship with acetylcholine.
Got it.
Okay.
So we want to pause,
Dr. Steven Peters: because what happens if you don't sleep?
Your attention goes out the window.
Yeah.
And, and if you, after a while, you get sleep deprived over a number of days.
Yeah.
Your attention span really shrinks.
In fact, if you did it long enough, you'd probably start to hallucinate.
And that's what happens with people that are sleep deprived for long
periods of time where their bodies are just trying desperately to get
Rupert Isaacson: to sleep.
Okay.
So,
norepinephrine, norepinephrine, norepinephrine, norepinephrine,
why can't I get it right?
I'm going to try it again.
Maybe, maybe a southern accent will help me.
Norepinephrine, norepinephrine.
Y'all got some norepinephrine.
I got some good norepinephrine right there, right there.
And so that's, that's gonna, that's going to stimulate.
a little bit good, too much, not good over into the red zone.
So we want some of that for attention.
And then we want some, acetylcholine, acetylcholine to, to help us to then
build the, white matter, the, the, the myceliation, that the, the insulation
along the, the wires that, and if we sleep on it, If we stop before
we go to a red zone and then allow a sleep cycle pause, then when we come
back the next day, we've allowed.
Dr. Steven Peters: We've, we've reduced a lot of the noise.
And so by, by hearing off the, the, the synapses that we don't need by
weakening them and strengthening others.
Right.
Then we, we actually bring a different brain to work the next
Rupert Isaacson: day.
Right.
So what it often feels to me, for myself, for my horses and for a
lot of the people I work with.
Is that over time when we do this, we effectively grow ourselves a new
brain, you know, I am, I become a different person over a certain number
of days over a certain number of months over a certain number of years.
The horse certainly does, the, you know, we get these horses
that come in and start with, you know, effectively no fucking way.
And then they go to me and then they go to, and then they go to, okay.
And then they go to at your service.
And we, we observe this process time and time again, and what I've generally
put it down to through the explanation of neuroscience is, is BDNF, Brain
Derived Neurotrophic Factor, i.
e.
neuroplasticity, kicking in through moving and problem solving.
That's how it's been explained to me.
Are these two components neuro, neuro, neuroepiprofen?
Norepinephrine.
And acetylcholine.
Aspects of BDNF, they must also be proteins, right, to somebody,
because BDNF is a protein.
Are they aspects of brain derived neurotrophic factor that
Are they things that a, yeah.
Positive
Dr. Steven Peters: tell.
Ok.
Not to get too far afield, but let's draw that.
All that picture all together.
Cortisol, we call that a, glucocorticoid.
A glucocorticoid, right?
Stress, much cortisol, right?
So if we have too much glucocorticoid on board, we're stressed out, right?
But if, if we're resilient to stress, if we brought been brought up in
a loving environment, nurturing environment, we can create what's
called glucocorticoid receptors.
What these glucocorticoid receptors do is they'll take the
glucocorticoid and mediate it.
so that it won't have that impact.
So the more glucocorticoid receptors you have, the more
resilient you are to stress.
And we find like rat pups who lick their pups, those pups grow up
feeling loved and feel they have more glucocorticoid receptors.
So they're more resistant to stress.
So there's now a connection between the amount of glucocorticoid
receptors and the amount of BDNF that you have in your, in your system.
BDNF, we know that, that, you can produce that by exercise and movement, right?
But also you can optimize that by feeling safe.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So environment has a big part of it and mammalian care.
So oxytocin must have a big part of it then because they must be getting
Dr. Steven Peters: right.
And now you're starting to really put together the pieces.
that this truly is a cocktail that's very complicated that
we have to keep measuring.
so when people tell me, you know, well, dopamine does this
and that explains everything.
Well, that's just one of the things that you're taking out of
your bar here and mixing together.
And so Martin Black would tell me the guy, Tom Dorrance, who
was so affected with horses.
Martin describes him as the master bartender that he couldn't articulate
what was going on, but he kept, he take those horses that were maybe docile and,
and, and passive and bring up energy in them, not stress them, but bring
up energy and the opposite horses that seemed highly stressed, he could bring
them down and make them feel comfortable.
So there were things that he was doing to create a cocktail
regardless of where the horse was.
In this whole spectrum of behaviors, it, we all have neurochemicals in us,
and we all have brains, and we may have nervous systems that are set here if
you're an Arab, and set here if you're a draft horse, but nonetheless, you can
still work with this neurochemistry.
Rupert Isaacson: Why then, is this neurochemistry not taught?
in most therapeutic, training modalities.
And why is it not a part of, horse training?
because when I say part of horse training, I mean, for example,
I'm sitting here in Germany.
And, so things are quite regulated here.
You can't just, for example, show up and say, I'm a dressage trainer or I'm
a, yeah, you'd have to set show what your training was, what you did, and
it's all regulated by something called the FN, the Federation Nationale,
governs a little bit like the U.
S.
Equestrian Federation, but more German.
it has a whole system of teaching.
No brain science for horse or rider.
the British horse society, the same thing, the USCF, the same thing.
and that's before you go into, getting trained to be a therapeutic writing
instructor or something like that, where we began this conversation that you're
trying to reach a fellow human being.
Well, that's the brain you're trying to reach a horse.
Well, that's the brain.
Yet this, all these things that we've covered in the last hour,
they're not part of any mainstream.
training thing, equine or equine assisted or sport equine that I have come
across, let alone teaching in schools.
Why is that?
Dr. Steven Peters: Well, I think there's a lot of reasons.
One is it creates a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance.
If somebody's identity Is tied to a method of training and we've been rigid
and it passed down and, and you can't go outside this, this method of training
because then you're in the enemy camp.
So we've almost built these, these rigid camps and you get ostracized
by your, your social group if you're now in another way of thinking.
But if, if my whole social identity is in the 20 years that
I've been brought up in a system.
Right.
And then I have to rethink that and let go of that.
It's much easier to say, that's a bunch of baloney, or that's too complicated.
So that's one piece of it.
Now, dopamine happens to be one neurochemical that people look at,
because dopamine underlies It's every study that that's linked to learning.
You have to be motivated to learn and you set things up so you'll be motivated to
learn positive reinforcement, etc, etc.
But why are all the other neuro chemicals left left out of this.
University veterinary programs about this.
They said, yeah, you know, I said, I'm reading research, you know, that shows,
you know, that the same neurochemistry is working in humans that works in horses.
They've got all the same stuff here.
And they said, well, that's just too complicated for the lay public.
You know, that's just.
That's, that's out there.
In fact, when I went to Scotland and I, I, I gave presentations to large
veterinary groups, They get very little of that part of things in their schooling.
This was all new stuff to them, even in the equine medical world.
and basically it's been my mission to try to, to translate this into
lay terms and trying to find.
Concepts and, and, examples that are understandable to the lay person, because,
I, I think this is, important stuff and you see it in the medical field.
Let me give you an example, you know, with autism, you, you end up with
a protocol that's in place, right?
And we've always followed this protocol.
And so, you know, your, your child is going to be sent to, let's say speech
therapy and physical therapy, and that's.
That's the way that this, the prescription is written.
And so everybody gets on the same page with that, and
they've done it for 10 years.
So that must be the way that we, we, we do this.
And so, you know, it's easy to dismiss.
You get cognitive dissonance and you dismiss this as out of the
box or way out there, wacky stuff.
Cognitive
Rupert Isaacson: dissonance in layman's terms means...
I don't quite get it, so I'm going to dismiss it.
Right.
Dr. Steven Peters: Or, you know, it's threatening to the
beliefs that I hold currently.
And I've got to change my worldview if I'm going to accept that.
That's too hard for me to do.
They don't do that consciously.
That's too hard for me to do, so I'm going to stay right here with what I got.
And, you know, there's nothing more rigid and traditional than
horse training and horse camps.
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's an interesting thing
that, that now we're in a.
A moment in history where the horse is once again, changing its role
with humans, at least in the West.
so it's gone from transport to livestock, to war, to, entertainment, to sport.
And now it's coming into therapy.
And it's not that it's completely lost those other functions either.
They're still there.
However, where people were saying maybe 10 or 20 years ago, we used to hear a
lot of people saying, Oh, the horse has now become irrelevant to modern life.
It's just purely, a recreational thing.
And now I think that that shifted again and the vast, development
of the equine assisted.
universe, because it's not just special needs anymore.
It's, it's, it's anxiety.
It's people just wanting to understand it's team building.
It's people wanting to understand human interaction and metaphors.
And whether you get into, should we anthropomorphize that or not is
almost an irrelevant thing because we can only anthropomorphize because
it's the only lens through which we can view, and presumably that will
get more and more developed and more and more nuanced, blah, blah, blah.
But nonetheless, the horse is right there in this professional role with us again.
In a new way, and it seems that the neuroscience is at the
absolute, foundation of this.
Why it works, people might not know why it works, but as soon as the
neuroscience is explained, they're like, oh yes, I see, okay, that makes sense.
Yet it's not, the neuroscience is not in the training protocols yet.
for, as you say, not for veterinary, not for sport, and interestingly, not
much for The, the, the therapeutic end we, we at Horsepoy and Movement
Method only have it in because we got curious about why it was working.
And then we went and talked to a number of neuroscientists and we basically
got the same answer from them all.
So it allowed us to come up with a diagram that we could go back to them
and say, are you basically saying that You've got this overdeveloped amygdala.
You've got too much cortisol.
You've got this overdeveloped nervous system.
They're firing off each other.
You're getting into a vicious cycle with this.
And now we can come along with some hip rocking and some oxytocin, and
this is calming the nervous system and, also create, switching off
the amygdala, but also creating BDNF because they're balancing.
And therefore we get to the prefrontal cortex and therefore,
and they kind of looked at it.
There were several kind of went, well, yeah, kind of.
And we said, okay, well, this is very helpful for us because now and what we
found is that in no way Has the layman had any trouble understanding this?
Okay, some some of the terms Like I keep mispronouncing Neuropenephrine.
Neuropenephrine and, I say...
Acetylcholine.
Okay.
And it will take me some, some, some repetitions of that, but
things like oxytocin and things like BDNF are relatively easy to
stay or Purkinje cells or some of the other stuff that we get into.
And of course, a lot of this is just simply, about...
Get practicing and getting familiar, and we do know that scientists love
their jargon and they love to come up with Multi syllable complicated words
that are just frankly difficult to remember because a neuroscientist would
have as much difficulty remembering Something in another language in several
syllables as as this it just happens to be their field however I do think
that most people are really up for it.
I think that most people are open to it.
I think there's a real hunger for it.
So you say that you're not to mention a need for it.
You you're going and you're giving, you mentioned coming back from
Scotland and talking to groups of, of, veterinary students there.
and so, so you're clearly going out and about turning
people onto this neuroscience.
What, what's your, what's your basic.
A, B, C that you go into your average lay audience with.
And say these, this is the boom, boom, boom that you need to understand
to make your shit go better.
Hit us.
What is it?
Dr. Steven Peters: Well, basically what I'll do is I'll take images
because images are better than jargon, you know, and I'd stay away from the
big words and, and if they're going to run across them in the literature and
they want to search for them, like on Google Scholar or Science Direct, you
know, I tell them where to go to also.
, get information because, you know, the, there's so much pseudoscience
out there in social media that they can get really pulled off.
Basically, what I'll do is, is.
We look at horses in certain different states.
So, a horse that's in a parasympathetic mode, a horse that's alert with some
acetylcholine aboard, a horse that now has too much norepinephrine,
and they're looking for fight or flight, a horse that's been totally
restrained, taken away fight or flight that's now gone into freeze.
which is a different response than just being parked and comfortable.
And we talk about what's going on in those horses brains.
How did they get there?
And then how can you create an environment that you'll recognize these
things and, and set up environments where your horse can get there.
And so what people leave is being able to better connect with their horses, have
a better understanding and language of what's going on in their horse's brain.
And this is most empowering.
What I tell them is that you are going to be responsible for the
amount of dendrites and neuronal connections in your horse's brain.
You can create a special forces horse that's filled with dendrites and super
smart, or you can pair them all down and just get a robotic kind of horse.
That you're not connected with, but you are, regardless of what you
do, you're responsible for creating that brain because that horse lives
with you and interacts with you.
And I think just that message alone, is, is one they take home.
And I tell them, don't believe me.
Just ask your horse.
Just go out and experiment because everybody's a scientist.
You don't have to have a big name.
Everything is data.
Everything is experience and information.
Go out there and try things with your horse and, and, and work with your horse.
Your horse is an individual as well with its own makeup.
and that's kind of the package I put
Rupert Isaacson: together.
So basically you're saying go create dendrites and axons.
Yes, axons meetings of dendrites
Dr. Steven Peters: in axon is the long nerve ending, but at the end of
that we'll branch out all these, these
Rupert Isaacson: dendrites.
Okay.
So the axon is the main branch, the dendrite, the dendrites of the chest.
Okay.
Got it.
And so
Dr. Steven Peters: if a message comes in, it might come in
through the dendrite into the
Rupert Isaacson: axon and pass on its way.
And then the axon, the axon will then take it further into the,
the nervous system that's Right.
Bagel nerve.
And.
Those things.
Okay.
So go create a bunch of, of, of dendrites and axons, create
this forest of functional brain.
behavior in your self, in your horse, in your child, in your person that
you're working with by doing a bunch of cool shit in a non stressful way.
I'll give you a
Dr. Steven Peters: real quick example.
Let's say you have a horse that rears because somebody's restrained them, taken
away fight or flight, sort of whipped at them and all they're left with was Yeah.
So then somebody else inherits this horse and says, that's a bad
horse that will get you killed.
Let's put this horse down.
Or you could approach it as this horse has been so overwhelmed with
norepinephrine that what I have to do is one, make them feel safe, first of all.
So I have to go back because the horse is now a victim of that neuronal connection.
It's now in place.
They can't help it.
That's what the norepinephrine is just going to send information
down that pathway to survive.
What I have to do is show that horse, it doesn't need to go take that
pathway by creating good pathways.
So they're getting more and more serotonin and balancing out.
Once I get it to a certain level, then I can start to say, okay,
now let's go get some dopamine.
You're at a place where you can finally start to, to get some dopamine.
And then they get really, they learn to learn and they're looking
for every opportunity to learn.
Now I've got a horse that I'm out riding with.
It's comfortable, calm, and looking at new things as opportunity.
And that would have been a horse I would have put down if I just left them with
that old connected network in that.
And people who see that get scared.
So then they feel like they have to provide some kind of punishment
and you're really just reinforcing creating more white matter on
that dysfunctional pathway.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Um, so, okay, so Let's go again.
So let's take a, let's take our human or our horse, that human, us, that human
could be the person that we're working with if we're in an equine assistive
context, the person, or it could be our riding student and it can certainly
be our horse because all of us who are going out into this environment
together are taking a nervous system and a brain with us and let's create
as many dendrites and axons as we can.
And get those, hopefully those, those dendrites, those twigs to brush
against each other to buy lots and lots of cool new stimuli, but let's
be careful to do enough norepiprofen to get things stimulated, but not
so much that we overstimulate.
So let's do a bunch of pausing and let's use, some serotonin oxytocin
things like having their friends along.
Or older horses that can make them feel safe or empathetic touch or many of
these that will create these chemicals and then we can, when they're, when
they have learned something or are clearly learning something, let's
pause and go away and sleep on it with our, with our dear friend,
as say to colon.
so that in the course of that pause.
long or short, those neural pathways can be established in, in the positive way.
the BDNF, the brain derived neurotrophic factor can kick in, in a way that
is lasting, not just in the moment.
And we are in a positive progression.
Is that.
More or less, sir,
Dr. Steven Peters: in a nutshell, that is, you hit the nail on the head.
Rupert Isaacson: So if I were to come along, if I was to, from this
conversation, produce a little diagram of that, I think I'm going to, I'm going to
try and I'm going to bring it back to you.
And then you'll tell me if I've got it right or wrong.
I have to tweak it and then we'll tweak it.
I think that would be a useful thing.
For me as a guideline to then also when I'm working with my students
and when I'm working with my whoever I'm working with to point to that
diagram and say, well, look, Dr.
Steve takes us through this.
if we could be mindful of this process, we're respecting the brain science.
And if you forget how to pronounce norepiprofen and acetylcholine, it's
all right, because you just know what to do in order to get them.
You know, this is, this is exactly the kind of information that I'm always
looking for, because I think, you know, when, what, the thing that mystified me
when I went to see the neuroscientist To get the explanations about why
what we were doing was working was I was like, well, why are you, why do
I have to come and fucking find you and hunt you down like a wild coyote?
Why isn't this information sort of out there?
And they sort of say, well, honestly, rude people aren't interested.
we're here doing our neuroscience stuff and we publish our stuff,
but I'll give you an example.
at the University of Texas, you know, . Where we worked a bit with the autism
lab and in the beginning bit with my son, because my ex wife was a professor there.
and then we just ran straight into a kind of nightmare of behaviorism.
The, the, the neuroscientists were just a couple of meters away, and they had
all the information that would have made that behavioral approach better.
Yet those people were not talking to each other, just on a human Based
on that set of academics, we're not talking to that set of academics.
And that's where it became sort of siloed.
And then one has to go out and actually seek the knowledge.
Even though it's hiding in plain sight, but you're there coming along
and letting us know, is this, is this the basic one, two, three that
you're taking people through, whether it's vet schools or horse training or?
Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah.
And no matter what program you have, no matter what discipline
you have, you know, you could say this is the right way to do it.
A, B and C and D.
You can come up with any program you want positive reinforcement,
negative reinforcement, whatever you use clicker training, et cetera.
The brain is going to process it in the brain's terms.
So, no matter what program you have, understanding how the brain
processes it, because the brain doesn't care what program you have,
it wants to be able to best process.
So setting up the environment that best allows brains to do that, and
oftentimes in this busy world, merely slowing down enough to assimilate
information gets you farther down the road than if you tried to force
things to happen when the brain doesn't actually want to take it in that way.
Rupert Isaacson: So I'm just writing my little diagram here.
Okay.
Yes.
So we, we know that we don't need, if anything is overwhelmed,
then it's going to be a disaster.
This seems to be the, the neuroscience of horse sense, the
neuroscience of common sense.
, what I like about it too, is it gets away from just the
pure, , pleasure hormones thing.
Dopamine, serotonin, , endorphins, oxytocin, that we know we need all those.
However, they're not the whole picture.
We need, they need to be dosed in certain ways.
And it seems like what you've told us here with the dendrites and axons
to the norepiprofen to the pausing to the, acetyl, acetylcholine gives us a
way of, as you say, being a bartender, of being able to deliver those good
things in a way that's appropriate.
For the situation, the context, the animal or the human that's in front
of us or oneself in this particular moment, this is massively useful.
How are people, how can people come on your courses?
Tell us about this.
How can they find you and how can they sign up to learn?
Dr. Steven Peters: Sure.
they can go to my website, horsebrainscience.
info And there'll be, a schedule of, of classes that I, I give.
I also, do a course called Equiscience.
That's sort of the horse human relationship with, a
psychotherapist, Sarah Schlotty.
Oh yes,
Rupert Isaacson: she's very good.
Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah, and people can find that at Equiscience.
Rupert Isaacson: com.
Equiscience.
com, all one word, yeah.
Dr. Steven Peters: And you can be really hopeful about this because People
told me when I first started to talk about this that, that it was above and
too complicated for the lay person.
And what I found is exactly what you told me.
People are hungry for this information.
And I, my schedule is so busy that I'm traveling everywhere
giving these, these presentations.
So I think that indeed we are, we're in the midst of a paradigm shift.
and, and a lot of these old rigid programs will have to change just
because of the outcomes and what you see, in the better results.
Rupert Isaacson: Are you, are you writing a, like a neuroscience for dummies book?
Is there something that's specific to the layman where this stuff, we can find this
stuff and assimilate it in an easy way?
Dr. Steven Peters: In my presentations, that's pretty much what I try to do.
I haven't, I've thought of rewriting a book.
but you know, people have gotten away from, from reading, unfortunately,
you know, it's a fast paced world.
They want it on their phone.
They want it in, in, in sound bites.
And so I've had to find a different media to get the message across
because I think I almost limit myself by, by writing a book.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I think there's something in that or, or, or
these days it gets more complex.
One has to do all of it, right?
You've got to write the book, you've got to do the podcast, you've got
to do the website, you've got to do the, the app, you've got to do that.
what, what I would be really interested in looking at is, so we are, we are now,
for example, in Ireland with Horseboy.
and movement methods sort of now going into the mainstream where we're getting
government funding to bring this stuff in because they're just finding that
the outcomes are, good enough that it's, it's, it's saving the money.
it means that, for example, six foot four blokes with autism who act out
violently and need three minders, each of which costs the government a hundred
thousand a year get reduced to one.
you know, and they see that number and go, okay, well, we'll put, and as we
train more and more people, you know, we do our little neuroscience bit, but I'm
always thinking that, but there's more, there's more, there's more, it would
be very good if we could bring you in.
but it needs to go beyond that.
I'm thinking also the curatorium for therapeutic writing in Germany.
, they're, they're very open.
and we should go.
Present this to as many of these bodies as we can without trying to
sell them anything with the sort of a basically take it or leave it.
This will make it better.
Don't take our word for it.
But if you feel like going for it, here it is in whatever form, because I
think this is some of the most valuable information I've I've heard in years.
and to the point where I always know when something is really useful, when
I can draw a little diagram based on what an expert is saying, that means
they're getting it across, right?
You're not just going, Oh, what was that word that they said?
What was that thing?
Your clarity of delivery is unusual.
Which means it's helpful, unusually helpful.
where do you want, where do you want it to all go in the next five to 10 years?
You're looking at the equine industry.
You're looking at vets, but you're also looking at mental health.
You yourself have autism.
you're looking at all these kids who are coming into the system.
Where do you want, how do you want this neuroscience to.
Get a
Dr. Steven Peters: simulator.
No, I don't want to sort of practicing outside of my scope because I don't
think that that's just opinion and not really based on the evidence
based information that I know well.
So, with humans, most of my, my background was in the dementias and and, you
know, deteriorating brain process, etc.
So I don't have a clinical background.
In autism, other than just being on the spectrum myself.
So that's the only, in, knowledge base I have in terms of.
of therapies.
Rupert Isaacson: you've got to understand how funny that sounds because basically
what you just said is I've got no, I've got no clinical, knowledge of autism,
and neuroscience other than the fact that I'm an autistic neuroscientist.
Dr. Steven Peters: It sounds ridiculous, but you know, when you get up in front
of a panel and they say, how many books have you written on autism, you know, is
though that were the, were the measure.
so I think I, I'm able to make the biggest input, you know, I would like to see when
somebody rides a rodeo horse, for example.
That that horse can come calmly into an arena and then.
No, in through the communication.
I just dial up my nervous system, but I'm still feeling safe.
I'm still hunting for that dopamine.
I run my pattern.
I'm finished.
The writer gets off.
I look and chew.
Then I walk onto the trailer and I go home.
That can happen.
You don't have to yank the horse's mouth around.
You don't have to spur the horse.
In fact, most of the time that horse is more worried about when
the hammer is going to fall.
Okay.
than they are about concentrating on what they need to do.
And so I think our abuse of horses, and I call it abuse, has become normalized
just because we see it so often.
And I'd like us to have a different lens.
One that's more, gives the horse a better deal.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and I'd say that that brutalization of humans
was normalized for the same reason.
It was just...
One saw it every day, you know, the school system I went through, we were beaten.
We just were.
things are getting better.
That's now illegal.
but the harshness behind it, the impatience, the what the Pink Floyd
would call the dark sarcasm in the classroom, all the stuff that
activates your amygdala anyway.
these things happen.
These things change only slowly unless someone like a Dr.
Steve comes along and says, well, actually, here's the neuroscience of it.
So.
it's not a culture thing.
It's not, are you kind or not kind?
It's just, this is how the brain works.
If you do it like this, it will happen like that.
so you say you don't want to be outside of your area, but I think
that anyone who's listening to this right now, let's say they're coming
from a therapeutic writing context, will find everything that you said
massively helpful and take those tools.
and add them to their toolbox.
so I don't think you need to worry about because it's not, we're not
talking about an academic world here.
it's more the world of the practitioners.
I think the world of the practitioners, the people who want
to get the job done, want to get the
Dr. Steven Peters: job done.
Well, what I do love about my job is that.
You know, it's, it's evidence based information.
So, you know, it's not my opinion.
So people could dismiss that.
Well, that's Steve Peter's opinion.
But if I say the heart pumps blood and somebody goes, well,
that's just your opinion.
I can say, well, no, actually, that's a fact.
And this is how it's supported.
And this is how, how we know that indeed that is a fact.
And that's not my opinion.
And so, yeah, my knowledge of brain functioning over 3 decades of working.
with, with brains, , does put me in a place where I can say, no, that
this is, this is evidence based.
, and it's always a position of strength because I try not to go into realms
where I'm relying on, on my opinion.
I'm, I'm really relying on, on
Rupert Isaacson: fact.
Okay.
So we're approaching the two hour mark here.
And I think what this is, what's really good about this is that.
Let's say I was listening to this and I and I was Making some notes.
Okay.
Dendrites.
Axons.
Okay.
Go there.
Activities.
Let's get that.
Noreen.
Too much.
Not good.
Okay, so just enough for the beta.
That's good.
Then the pause and then the aesthetic, , coline so that we can sleep on it and get
those neural pathways going in a good way.
This is really helpful.
What else do we really need to know as a kind of a neuroscience bottom line?
About horse brain human brain.
You need us to go away with that.
We shouldn't Get off this chair
Dr. Steven Peters: without knowing what I would tell your listeners for the
horse and the human is that your brain is constantly rewiring and wiring itself.
And so if you looked at it as though you're a neurological gardener.
And you have to create the environment to grow the biggest
dendritic forest that you can grow.
And you only do that by understanding the environment and understanding how to
create a fertile ground in which that can occur for both the human and the horse.
And that may be different for each human.
They may need different nutrients.
They may be different attention, et cetera, to produce that dendritic field.
But we're all capable of wiring our brains.
our horse and us.
And so providing that and looking at yourself as the neuronal gardener.
And if you are the
Rupert Isaacson: neuronal gardener and, or forester, and you're creating this,
this forest in the horse, in yourself, in your client, it sounds like the
creation of this dendritic forest or garden comes down in many ways to play,
Dr. Steven Peters: or am I wrong?
That's a perfect environment because then you're able to tolerate so
much more in a safe environment.
Yeah.
And, and the result of play is huge dopamine hits and curiosity.
And, yeah, it's, it's a safe environment and movement is often involved.
So that's a very creative way of, of creating this, this new
dendritic force animals that aren't safe enough to play that aren't
comfortable in their environments that are isolated in isolation.
is the second biggest stressor for horses.
Restraint is one, isolation is another.
They need contact.
Nervous systems need other nervous systems to thrive.
That's what, so
Rupert Isaacson: they're much later, right?
Co regulation is that?
Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah.
Yeah.
But more than that, I mean, you're, you're, you're oxytocin deprived
if you don't have interaction in touch with other animals.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So, so one of the things which, . I often do when I'm going
around doing dressage clinics.
that's one of my other lives, right?
Is, I've learned now that when the horse comes in to the arena snorting and
fire breathing dragon y and basically they've just got off the trailer in this
new place and they're all freaked out.
what I've started to do now is say, actually chaps, let's just pull
the saddle off and let him play.
Let's let him play.
If you feel that he can play safely with another horse, let's
have him play with another horse.
if you brought another horse with you, for example, and they know each other,
if not, let's interact with the horse and we'll know when that horse is
ready to receive information from us.
But if we don't give him a bit of crazy time and a bit of fun, and then a bit of
exploration time, frankly, they're just not going to take in any information.
It's just not worth it.
And I took the, the, the, the leap of saying this to people who were, you
know, proper, proper Grand Prix riders.
And it, it made a massive difference.
And what I realized was, you know, cause I went to a lot of, horse seminars
and so on, I had a lot of people, particularly from the Western USA saying.
Oh, well, you know, if you don't keep your horses in herds in big pastures, you're
an arsehole and I was thinking yeah, but Unfortunately, that's just shaming
people who have no option but to keep their horses in suburban, Riding clubs or
boarding stables where they have no choice because they're being run by somebody
else Who's doing it with the horses in boxes and blah blah blah blah blah.
So they just go away feeling shit with no solution to their problems.
So then I started thinking, okay, well, what's the solution?
The solution is getting horses to play together in herds at the very least.
So you open up the covered arena, do some free jumping, have them mill around,
change the playground for them every couple of minutes, let them enjoy it.
And we found that this really worked well in those environments.
You had to integrate them.
Obviously say, you know, they were safe with each other, but that it came so much
down, as you say, to social time and play, but that one couldn't go and say to people
are you can't control your environment.
So therefore, and, and, and the option of having a ranch in Montana
or Colorado is not there for you.
Therefore, you shouldn't keep horses at all.
That just makes people sad and depressed and, and doesn't
give them practical solutions.
But what's really nice is if, if, if then they want to create this...
Social time and crazy time for their horses and they go to the barn owner
and the barn owner says well No, I don't want to do that if they can produce the
kind of neuroscience that you've just come up with and say well Actually,
this makes it safer for everybody.
This makes it safer for your people who are mucking out the boxes This
makes it safer for you the barn owner because the horses have fewer accidents
because they freak out less and they don't stand there kicking the walls
or get their feet hung up and Rafters, because they're all freaked out and
rearing up in the box and all the stuff that happens, , in those environments.
It, it seems to always come down to the neuroscience.
if, so if you say you're a gardener trying to, or a forester trying
to create the biggest dendritic forest that you can, I love that.
In the most fertile soil that you can.
Okay, if the dendritic pathways are coming through this exploration and
play, how are we creating that soil?
How are we creating the soil for those dendrites to grow out
Dr. Steven Peters: of?
Well, in that condition that you talked about a stall, a box stall,
even if it's made out of mahogany is a sensory deprivation box.
And we know any mammal put in that type of environment, especially a herd animal,
you're going to be pruning back dendrites.
That brain is going to weigh less.
In a brain that can interact with other horses, you could say, well,
well, I can't do that because of, the confines of a small environment.
I think in the future, because the research is so robust in this area that
it's just not healthy psychologically and emotionally to be isolating
horses and putting them in stalls.
You know, all of those, those, the way that they cope with that with.
You know, wind sucking and cribbing, et cetera, are the result of
they lower their cortisol level.
They're, they're not, , they don't have, it's not that they don't have any purpose.
They have a good purpose and helping animals stay self regulated emotionally.
But I think people are going to learn to landscape a little better,
and they're going to find a track system, maybe even one acre of land.
I've seen this in San Diego, small little outcropping with a little hillside.
And then there's a track along the outside of the The property where hay is
placed in certain areas and somebody's put down some P gravel for their hooves.
Somebody else has created a little water hole that they can congregate at.
And I would argue that getting when people say, well, my horse
will get hurt with other horses.
I would argue that that physical losing a little hide doesn't really
weigh well with the psychological and emotional comfort that horses
get in their, in their interaction.
And in terms of brain growth, that soil needs to have some sort of.
interaction, we all need interaction with each other.
So we may have to be creative and how we do that.
But just not addressing the issue and putting them in
isolating them isn't an answer.
Rupert Isaacson: So, so, so prioritizing it as a prioritizing that social
time and saying Okay, because we need these dendrites, before we can
think about anything at all, we've got to re jig our environment.
So, If we are indeed in a, in a, in a, in a limited space, so the horses
are, or you've just the barn owner, there you are, you've got a stable and
there are stalls, and that's just the environment that you've either bought
or inherited or whatever, there it is.
Can we then say, all right, what do we do to optimize this?
How can we give the horses the maximum opportunity to go and socialize?
without it just feeling like a prison yard, right?
so, so for example, if, if you put in those tracks that you're talking
about and the horse goes back to the box, is that bet, is that better than
if the horse doesn't get that at all?
Or is it that we should, if possible, learn that
Dr. Steven Peters: that's where they get that.
Oftentimes, if they learn where they that's where they've gotten fed that
that's where they don't have to work, they may gravitate back to that.
But we learned this lesson in in zoos.
When I was a child, we'd go to zoos and then small cages, small boxes, they'd have
animals, they pace, they bite at things.
they never thrived.
And once zoos became enlightened and the closer they could replicate a natural
habitat, natural environment for that animal, then they hit on the, and so then
it became monorails that came over the zoo and look down on animals in a big field.
And you may not have that much land.
But I think it behooves us to be creative and understand the closer I
can replicate a natural environment, the better my animals going to thrive.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
You know, I'm thinking, I mean,
Dr. Steven Peters: those mustangs.
Go ahead.
I was just going to say, you know, sometimes we get egotistical that we
have to teach the horse everything, you know, there are mustangs out in the
wild that aren't just standing still saying, I hope some human comes along
and teaches me to trot and teaches me how to find the waterhole, etc.
You know, they're probably filled with.
with dendrites because they have that, that environment and you
know, they have good hoof health and et cetera, et cetera, on and on.
So I'm not saying, you know, let your horses all run free, but I am
saying that, that, , from a brain standpoint and brain health and from
a wellness standpoint, I'm thinking about how can I create that fertile
ground and that fertile ground being.
As close to a natural habitat as I can get if they can forage, you
know, that's much better than highly processed grains that just go right
through them, filling them full of sugar and sticking them in a stall.
It's not good for a human or a horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, absolutely.
And one of the things which is interesting in that the, the, the urban
environment of horse keeping, where horses, of course, were in stores.
one forgot was that the horse was outside working all day constantly moving,
moving, moving, moving, moving, often in conjunction with a herd because they, they
were groups of them doing things together.
They might be being driven in a team.
They might be, working in a cavalry regiment.
They might be this, they might be that, but in general and all
sorts of human contact, constant, constant, constant, constant.
And then going back into a store after moving all day, just to
kind of chill is very different.
To standing in a box for 23 hours, waiting for your owner, who's got a
job and a family to come and ride you for one hour in the arena, get upset
that you can't concentrate and then put you back in that isolation box again.
And, and.
Cavalry, schools, you know, which again would always have the horses in
the boxes until they went on campaign.
And then of course, when they went on campaign, they were in the field.
so I think what, what, what's happened is we've lost.
the context of, of, of these things.
and we, I see it almost less as a, as a problem of the way we keep
horses as the way in which we're trying to make horses conform.
To a modern paradigm of human life that horse human interaction wasn't
really ever created for And then how but then I find it quite intriguing.
How do we find solutions to that problem?
For example group play in the covered arena?
Yeah, but it's interesting I now do this as a as a as a prerequisite for
any of my clients in the stable where we're based out of in Germany, because
they are indeed in boxes, but they're actually out in the fields in the day.
that's how it's done.
So I say to all my people, get them playing together, playing
together, playing together.
And we set up, I set them up into groups and anyone who won't do this.
I say, well, I can't really have you as a client because I just know that I'm going
to be dealing with an unhappy horse that as soon as you're ready to integrate your
horse into that herd for some playtime, some crazy time, come back and talk to me.
I do understand that you have a job.
I do understand that you have a baby.
I do understand that you'll have time constraints.
But as you say, let's replicate as closely as we can to the original.
Dr. Steven Peters: I know exactly what you're saying.
Martin Black and I, we do a colt starting every year in October, and
we don't keep a horse in isolation.
Four horses are started together.
Yeah, and so that actually creates the sense of safety.
There's movement together, et cetera.
And, and it more than pays off.
because you work with 1 and then you get a pause because you
have to work with the others.
So the.
The pause is, is built into the whole process, and yet you can use the herd and
all that serotonin and oxytocin in your favor, and it truly makes a difference.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: plus the visual learning.
I mean, they watch each other, right?
They learn from each other.
, so much of, , what's forgotten with horses, as you know,
is, ... Where did, where did horse domestication and training start?
Starts in Central Asia with who?
With tribes.
Well, what's a tribe.
A tribe is a group of people out there living in tents, constantly interacting
as clans and extended families.
What are horses, herd animals, constantly interacting in clans and, and, and you
put those two things together and you get.
Equestrian culture.
And then it's pretty functional.
because it's, it's obeying the rules of the fact that we're both
heard animals really effectively.
and now suddenly with the cult of the individual, we've broken that.
and we wonder why we're running into some problems.
but when you come along and explain it, particularly in the, in the,
even if we just bring the whole thing back to dendrites, Okay.
And say, fewer dendrites, more problems for you and your horse.
More dendrites.
Better.
Everything's going to go.
Which one do you want shit or good?
Then let's go for some dendrites.
You know, that's
Dr. Steven Peters: how we use your flowers.
Yeah.
you know, Rupert, I think you and I in conversation could probably
spend an entire day bouncing these things back and forth.
So maybe you'll invite me and we'll try this again.
I would love
Rupert Isaacson: to.
And if you want more than that, what I'd like to do is I'm going to
throw this open to the listeners.
Okay.
Listeners.
Hello.
You're going to have questions for Dr.
Steve.
Email them to me.
I'm going to ask Dr Steve to come back on and we're going to answer those
questions because then those questions are going to, and if you are coming from
a suburban horse environment where you have limited space, please don't think
that you're not part of this conversation.
Ask Dr Steve for the, the solutions to get those dendrites going in your horses.
Let's, let's get this conversation moving.
Dr. Steven Peters: Let's discuss it.
Let's be creative together.
Let's figure these things out.
So yeah, I'd invite your listeners.
Everybody's included.
The umbrella of brain functioning is huge.
It exceeds all disciplines and all environments.
You know, they're, we're talking about brains, so everybody's invited.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
So listen, let's just go through the resources again.
Tell us, the titles of your books so that people will want, they'll want those.
what, what, what should they be ordering from Amazon if they want to read yourself?
Dr. Steven Peters: Okay, you can go to Amazon and you can
read evidence based horsemanship.
That's the book that martin black and I wrote and we purposely, spent a lot
of time trying to make it available.
or make it accessible to as many people as possible.
There's jargon in there, but there's also a glossary.
It's not a huge academic tome.
It's about 100 pages, and there are a lot of illustrations.
So evidence based horsemanship, you can get that on Amazon.
you can come, you can go to my website, horsebrainscience.
info.
You can also look up.
Equiscience.
com and look at the courses that, Sarah Schulte and I are doing together and
that'll give you a pretty good start.
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
All right.
We're all going to go off and do that.
And then we're going to ask you to come back on in a little while
and answer the questions that the dendrites, in our brain are going to
come up with, having been stimulated.
today.
thank you so, so much, Dr.
Steve, for coming
Dr. Steven Peters: on.
Oh, it's been a pleasure.
I really enjoyed, our discussion.
Rupert Isaacson: Massively, massively.
I'm going to bed.
I'm going to go take my, my pause now and go, , bed down with, , see.
Yeah.
Dr. Steven Peters: Let the acetylcholine do its work now.
Yeah.
The acetylcholine.
Have your glass of wine, relax, and let your brain Now, , do
what it needs to do get a little
Rupert Isaacson: white matter going.
All right, I will I will see you on the next one Thank you so much.
I'm very grateful.
Dr. Steven Peters: Be well.
Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us.
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.
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