WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.120
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:03.830
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

00:00:03.943 --> 00:00:07.033
New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

00:00:07.038 --> 00:00:11.027
Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

00:00:11.027 --> 00:00:16.644
You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

00:00:16.694 --> 00:00:18.614
Here on Equine Assisted World.

00:00:18.614 --> 00:00:23.744
We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

00:00:23.794 --> 00:00:27.604
established in the equine assisted field.

00:00:27.634 --> 00:00:32.884
This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

00:00:33.034 --> 00:00:38.284
physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

00:00:38.794 --> 00:00:43.204
These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

00:00:43.301 --> 00:00:47.201
Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

00:00:47.270 --> 00:00:52.710
Welcome back to equine assisted world
where we talk to people at the cutting

00:00:52.730 --> 00:00:59.310
edge of this Can't really even call it
an industry this Practice the service

00:00:59.330 --> 00:01:04.264
this way of looking at the world of
how horses interact with humans And

00:01:04.264 --> 00:01:07.917
make them feel better basically We look
at it from the horse angle, we look

00:01:07.917 --> 00:01:11.377
at it from the human angle, we look
at it from the body angle, we look at

00:01:11.377 --> 00:01:14.587
it from the nervous system angle, and
we look at it from the brain angle.

00:01:14.837 --> 00:01:18.927
And for those of you who know,  a
little bit about the approach,  with

00:01:18.927 --> 00:01:22.307
our own methods, , horseboy method,
movement method, and so on, , you'll

00:01:22.697 --> 00:01:24.677
No, it's very, , neuroscience based.

00:01:24.677 --> 00:01:27.647
It's very brain based, but
we're not neuroscientists.

00:01:27.667 --> 00:01:32.187
We just stumbled into something
that,  we had explained to us why

00:01:32.197 --> 00:01:33.637
it was working by neuroscientists.

00:01:33.887 --> 00:01:38.587
It's relatively rare that we get an actual
neuroscientist, , here, , in front of us.

00:01:38.627 --> 00:01:43.257
they tend to sit in,  special
neuroscientist kennels in universities

00:01:43.347 --> 00:01:44.617
and you don't really get access to them.

00:01:44.617 --> 00:01:45.217
You have to go through.

00:01:45.567 --> 00:01:48.797
all sorts of,  wire and, , locked
gates and things like that.

00:01:48.797 --> 00:01:53.227
But we managed to break one out
of, of the, , Of the ivory tower

00:01:53.607 --> 00:01:56.477
and bring it to you guys to listen.

00:01:56.477 --> 00:01:57.437
So we're very, very lucky.

00:01:57.437 --> 00:01:58.267
We've got Dr.

00:01:58.267 --> 00:02:01.847
Steven Peters here, who's a unique
individual in many, many ways, because

00:02:01.847 --> 00:02:07.287
not only, , is he a brain scientist and a
doctor, , and, but he also is, has autism.

00:02:07.797 --> 00:02:09.897
, and he's also a very
accomplished horseman.

00:02:10.347 --> 00:02:14.467
And has been working in the
field of equine assisted stuff in

00:02:14.467 --> 00:02:17.797
general, as well as horsemanship
in general for many, many years.

00:02:17.837 --> 00:02:23.987
And so he's in a unique position to
really, , enlighten us on a lot of

00:02:23.987 --> 00:02:25.917
things that a lot of us wonder about.

00:02:25.917 --> 00:02:28.867
Because let's face it, when you're
working with a human or whether

00:02:28.867 --> 00:02:29.887
you're working with a horse.

00:02:30.272 --> 00:02:34.452
If you're working with any sentient being,
pretty much, you're working with the

00:02:34.452 --> 00:02:35.702
brain, that's what you're working with.

00:02:35.962 --> 00:02:37.922
You might want your horse
to do a half pass, but first

00:02:37.922 --> 00:02:38.952
you've got to access the brain.

00:02:39.232 --> 00:02:42.532
You might want, , this,  A client
or service user that you're working

00:02:42.532 --> 00:02:47.262
with to,  do to participate in
a, in a, in an activity that is

00:02:47.262 --> 00:02:48.572
going to have a beneficial effect.

00:02:48.652 --> 00:02:50.622
Well, that's only going to happen
if you can reach the brain.

00:02:50.922 --> 00:02:55.872
Yet the brain is the thing that we are
taught the least about,  in most of our,

00:02:55.982 --> 00:03:01.342
training, whether we are teachers, whether
we're therapists, whether we're,  even,

00:03:01.492 --> 00:03:04.312
you know, people in the medical field,
they don't get an awful lot of brain

00:03:04.312 --> 00:03:06.382
science unless they go looking for it.

00:03:06.582 --> 00:03:07.672
So we went looking for it.

00:03:08.232 --> 00:03:10.492
And here we have Dr.

00:03:10.502 --> 00:03:11.192
Steven Peter.

00:03:11.192 --> 00:03:11.932
So Dr.

00:03:12.112 --> 00:03:12.732
Peter, Dr.

00:03:12.762 --> 00:03:14.482
Steve, thanks so much for coming on.

00:03:15.172 --> 00:03:15.832
Who are you?

00:03:15.952 --> 00:03:16.962
Tell us who you are.

00:03:18.772 --> 00:03:21.492
Dr. Steven Peters: Well, Rupert,
I'm glad to be a part of your.

00:03:21.912 --> 00:03:23.032
Your program here.

00:03:23.662 --> 00:03:27.872
I am a neuroscientist, and I'm
glad you brought that whole idea

00:03:27.972 --> 00:03:32.442
up about neuroscientists coming
out of the, their ivory tower.

00:03:32.842 --> 00:03:37.982
In fact, that sort of drove
me in my, in my horse work.

00:03:38.517 --> 00:03:43.337
I was a human neuroscientist and I
assessed brain functioning and ran memory

00:03:43.337 --> 00:03:47.807
clinics and,  in a clinic for brain
health, big hospital based clinics.

00:03:47.837 --> 00:03:49.027
But I always had horses.

00:03:49.027 --> 00:03:53.537
And so I always looked at them from
that neurological vantage point.

00:03:53.557 --> 00:03:57.947
You know, every mammal has a,
a nervous system and that's

00:03:57.947 --> 00:03:59.047
what we communicate with.

00:03:59.637 --> 00:04:01.407
I guess a big frustration.

00:04:02.337 --> 00:04:06.287
was talking to people in the horse
world who assumed that horses

00:04:06.347 --> 00:04:08.847
perceive the world as we do.

00:04:09.287 --> 00:04:15.657
And if you just stop for a second and
think, You know, the, the shape of

00:04:15.657 --> 00:04:21.577
their pupil, the sounds that they bring
in,  the mechanoreceptors in their skin,

00:04:22.137 --> 00:04:28.637
they can't perceive a world that we
perceive,  but we use the human brain as

00:04:28.637 --> 00:04:31.567
a, as a standard to compare the horse to.

00:04:31.937 --> 00:04:35.097
So people would say crazy
things like that horses.

00:04:35.582 --> 00:04:36.062
stubborn.

00:04:36.062 --> 00:04:37.202
It knows better.

00:04:37.202 --> 00:04:38.332
It's disrespectful.

00:04:39.462 --> 00:04:43.442
You know, when a horse was simply
being a horse and the person lacked

00:04:43.482 --> 00:04:48.592
the communication skills to connect
with the horse and understand

00:04:48.592 --> 00:04:51.362
that language,  with the horse.

00:04:51.582 --> 00:04:59.117
So I I wanted to find somebody
who saw horses enough horses,

00:05:00.217 --> 00:05:02.457
it would give me some good data.

00:05:02.657 --> 00:05:04.747
You can't do anything in
science with small numbers.

00:05:04.757 --> 00:05:09.147
So I'd look through the peer reviewed
literature and I'd see Maybe six

00:05:09.147 --> 00:05:13.267
horses and they were all Pasafinos
and they were all in a stable

00:05:13.267 --> 00:05:18.857
and they were all receiving the
same food, you know, grain, etc.

00:05:18.997 --> 00:05:24.827
And, and you can't generalize from that
sample out into the world of, of horses,

00:05:24.877 --> 00:05:29.257
but you'd see research that would, would
seem to indicate that that was the case.

00:05:29.257 --> 00:05:31.967
So I got frustrated even with
the science side of things.

00:05:32.967 --> 00:05:38.367
So Martin Black, for those who don't
know, is a fifth generation cowboy

00:05:38.957 --> 00:05:44.147
and has spent his lifetime working
with horses, as has his family.

00:05:44.437 --> 00:05:51.902
In fact, Martin's family has
supplied horses for almost every

00:05:51.912 --> 00:05:56.202
war that the United States has
fought right up to World War Two.

00:05:56.202 --> 00:05:59.852
So,  Martin, when he was a teenager,
wanted to earn extra money.

00:05:59.902 --> 00:06:03.702
So he developed a contract
colt starting business and

00:06:03.702 --> 00:06:06.522
was starting 500 colts a year.

00:06:06.952 --> 00:06:07.812
As a teenager.

00:06:08.502 --> 00:06:14.742
So Martin has seen his empirical
data is what he's observed again and

00:06:14.742 --> 00:06:17.412
again was invaluable huge numbers.

00:06:17.802 --> 00:06:19.552
So he and I got together.

00:06:19.852 --> 00:06:22.882
I provided the science I would
say things like do horses.

00:06:23.107 --> 00:06:25.657
You ever see horses do
this in this situation?

00:06:26.157 --> 00:06:29.887
And he said, yeah, it took me about
a thousand horses before I saw that.

00:06:29.977 --> 00:06:31.417
How the hell do you know that?

00:06:31.817 --> 00:06:35.387
I said, I only know that because
I understand how the brain works.

00:06:36.177 --> 00:06:40.597
And so it was both of us putting the
puzzle pieces together, his empirical

00:06:40.607 --> 00:06:45.917
data, my scientific data, and we wrote
a book, Evidence Based Horsemanship.

00:06:46.787 --> 00:06:48.257
And then that sent me off.

00:06:48.257 --> 00:06:51.597
I had no idea that this would catch on.

00:06:51.597 --> 00:06:58.067
I, I was planning on, on a retirement
with my dogs and my horses and, , a quiet,

00:06:58.137 --> 00:07:03.337
contemplative, artistic life, painting
and drawing and doing those things.

00:07:03.827 --> 00:07:05.577
And that has not been the case.

00:07:05.737 --> 00:07:10.432
you know, I've been asked, first off,
By scientific groups, but then the lay

00:07:10.452 --> 00:07:15.532
public and I found that people want
to connect and understand their horses

00:07:15.532 --> 00:07:20.352
and understand the reactions that they
get with their horses and understand

00:07:20.352 --> 00:07:24.862
how it's two nervous systems coming
together, the human and the horse

00:07:25.582 --> 00:07:26.922
that the interaction is so important.

00:07:26.932 --> 00:07:34.702
So these programs follow steps ABC and
D are just so rigid and sometimes crazy.

00:07:35.122 --> 00:07:37.892
You know, I'd ask people, why
does your horse do that well.

00:07:38.282 --> 00:07:40.642
There are right brain
introverted Sagittarius.

00:07:40.702 --> 00:07:44.482
I have all these charts and graphs
that I spent money for to show me this.

00:07:45.212 --> 00:07:51.432
so for me, it just seems so far
out there and, and so confusing.

00:07:52.072 --> 00:07:55.962
To the public and if it's confusing
to the public, whatever they present

00:07:55.992 --> 00:07:57.782
is going to be confusing to the horse.

00:07:58.512 --> 00:08:02.132
And, you know, I really felt the
horse was getting a disservice.

00:08:02.142 --> 00:08:08.682
So I've sort of been on this mission of
providing information about the horse's

00:08:08.682 --> 00:08:13.722
nervous system and What we do, we do
brain dissections and I show people all

00:08:13.722 --> 00:08:17.922
the connections,  with a horse, which
can be quite profound for somebody to

00:08:17.922 --> 00:08:24.242
hold an organ that it controls, like,
like you said, Rupert, everything that

00:08:24.242 --> 00:08:30.152
that horse perceives and does and learns,
you know, if it kicks it bucks, it

00:08:30.152 --> 00:08:35.882
bolts, it grazes, has to be processed
through the brain and the nervous system.

00:08:36.062 --> 00:08:38.242
So understanding what's under the hood.

00:08:38.682 --> 00:08:43.312
It is a really a,  key step in
understanding the horse as a,

00:08:43.322 --> 00:08:47.242
as a whole in a different level,
a whole different level than

00:08:47.492 --> 00:08:49.542
just making the horse do things.

00:08:50.642 --> 00:08:51.652
Rupert Isaacson: Here's the question.

00:08:51.872 --> 00:08:54.362
I want to ask you a bunch
of things from this.

00:08:54.462 --> 00:09:01.382
But something that comes up,  immediately
is, I think it is true to say that you

00:09:01.382 --> 00:09:07.262
can generalize some aspects of horse
training, otherwise people would not ever

00:09:07.262 --> 00:09:11.232
have been able to train horses, including
Martin Black, would not have been able to

00:09:11.232 --> 00:09:15.142
start all these colts,  nor his family,
you know, for the army, et cetera.

00:09:15.482 --> 00:09:21.342
However,  I think, yes, it's certainly
true that even if we get horses

00:09:21.342 --> 00:09:23.552
to do things, we misunderstand.

00:09:24.302 --> 00:09:28.012
their motives, their reactions,
their,  it's hard for us to, to

00:09:28.012 --> 00:09:31.872
judge their well being outside
of their physical well being.

00:09:32.522 --> 00:09:41.622
the first question that arises is if it's
so flawed traditionally how we've been

00:09:42.232 --> 00:09:44.122
approaching horses and horse training.

00:09:44.582 --> 00:09:46.112
Just gonna play devil's
advocate for a moment.

00:09:46.252 --> 00:09:47.482
Why is it so effective?

00:09:47.522 --> 00:09:50.427
Because we've done, we've, we've
done amazing things with horses

00:09:50.427 --> 00:09:52.172
over the centuries, without a doubt.

00:09:52.682 --> 00:09:54.942
what's the what's the disconnect?

00:09:54.972 --> 00:09:56.042
What's what's wrong?

00:09:56.972 --> 00:09:57.852
Dr. Steven Peters: Let me ask you.

00:09:58.342 --> 00:10:02.242
Do you really think we've
been that effective?

00:10:02.762 --> 00:10:03.512
It's a good question.

00:10:04.112 --> 00:10:10.852
Here would be my argument is that,
you know, horses are, are, you can

00:10:10.852 --> 00:10:15.812
make them do things and you can turn
them into robotic animals actually,

00:10:16.402 --> 00:10:18.972
and lose that, that connection.

00:10:18.972 --> 00:10:20.822
So you don't have a communication.

00:10:21.042 --> 00:10:26.812
For example, if you're starting
a colt, and, and this is what

00:10:26.822 --> 00:10:29.532
Martin and I have come upon.

00:10:29.842 --> 00:10:31.042
If you're starting a colt.

00:10:31.657 --> 00:10:36.457
You can be really clear in your
communication if they're in the right

00:10:36.467 --> 00:10:42.167
mental framework in order to understand
what you're asking, or you can force them

00:10:43.147 --> 00:10:44.827
where they're sympathetically aroused.

00:10:45.662 --> 00:10:47.782
to go through emotion.

00:10:48.272 --> 00:10:54.132
but what you're leaving your horse with,
like a human to learn, we all need safety.

00:10:54.932 --> 00:10:55.942
We have to feel safe.

00:10:55.942 --> 00:10:58.182
We have to have a motivation to learn.

00:10:58.202 --> 00:11:01.692
So we have to have a way
to tap into dopamine.

00:11:02.322 --> 00:11:03.552
and we have to have attention.

00:11:04.982 --> 00:11:09.002
Oftentimes when you're getting out of
after your horse or trying to discipline

00:11:09.002 --> 00:11:11.072
them, you lose their attention.

00:11:11.072 --> 00:11:11.902
They check out.

00:11:12.652 --> 00:11:16.472
on you, or if you have their attention,
they're not feeling safe if you're

00:11:16.492 --> 00:11:17.982
forcing them to do something.

00:11:18.542 --> 00:11:24.192
So you end up with neuronal bits and
fragments that the horse has to try to

00:11:24.192 --> 00:11:28.442
struggle to put together because they're
not in the right neurochemical state.

00:11:28.802 --> 00:11:35.002
In other words, it's, it's a, it's
a noise to signal ratio problem.

00:11:35.432 --> 00:11:38.772
If you've got lots of noise in
their nervous system, then they've

00:11:38.772 --> 00:11:40.562
got a hunt for that signal.

00:11:41.052 --> 00:11:42.652
And they may or may not find it.

00:11:42.662 --> 00:11:45.902
And then you have, if you have to
punish them in order to make them

00:11:45.902 --> 00:11:49.982
search even harder, yes, you can
make them learn to do something, but.

00:11:50.312 --> 00:11:55.742
They may be just reacting out of fear
and that may be rote memorization that

00:11:55.742 --> 00:11:58.552
they, they come to from constant drilling.

00:11:58.952 --> 00:12:02.932
And if you looked at the brain that was
constantly drilled, you'd find these

00:12:02.932 --> 00:12:10.172
rigid, rigid neuronal connections,
because brains are live wire, as

00:12:10.562 --> 00:12:12.472
they're based on our experience.

00:12:13.097 --> 00:12:18.467
After you and I have this talk, if we've
stimulated each other's brains, there

00:12:18.467 --> 00:12:22.347
will be different connections in our
neural network, and we will actually

00:12:22.357 --> 00:12:29.287
be different people than we were
tomorrow than we are today based on.

00:12:31.277 --> 00:12:37.517
So in other words, if, if we can
find that optimum neurochemical mix

00:12:37.817 --> 00:12:42.297
where the horse feels safe, where
the signal, no matter how subtle.

00:12:42.657 --> 00:12:48.347
Is understood because we've reduced the
noise and the noise being excess pressure

00:12:49.097 --> 00:12:54.607
and the horse can find where that pressure
is and have an internal locus of control.

00:12:54.947 --> 00:12:59.157
They can find their way out the
other side so they're under pressure.

00:12:59.437 --> 00:13:03.377
We take the pressure away, they
recognize that, and then they learn

00:13:03.377 --> 00:13:06.917
that they can get there on their
own, that if feeling stressed.

00:13:07.297 --> 00:13:13.057
they can find that safe zone, then
horses become like what Martin

00:13:13.057 --> 00:13:19.317
calls special forces horses, those
horses can sort things out and and

00:13:19.317 --> 00:13:21.107
have a brain full of dendrites.

00:13:21.692 --> 00:13:23.012
You take the horse out of the arena.

00:13:23.017 --> 00:13:23.392
Brain of horse.

00:13:23.392 --> 00:13:23.672
Never.

00:13:25.312 --> 00:13:25.612
Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.

00:13:25.612 --> 00:13:26.012
Brain full.

00:13:26.122 --> 00:13:30.952
You said they have a brain special forces
horses with a brain full of dander rights.

00:13:30.952 --> 00:13:32.892
Did you say den dendrites.

00:13:33.252 --> 00:13:33.642
Dendrite.

00:13:33.852 --> 00:13:34.752
What are dendrites?

00:13:35.052 --> 00:13:36.012
Tell us, tell us what dendrites are.

00:13:36.132 --> 00:13:36.702
Dendrites

00:13:37.672 --> 00:13:42.022
Dr. Steven Peters: are little branches
off of,  axons that, that branch out.

00:13:42.172 --> 00:13:44.182
They arbor out Arborization.

00:13:44.822 --> 00:13:50.222
And so like tree can have many,
like a tree, many, many branches.

00:13:50.552 --> 00:13:55.522
If we do rote memorization, rote
training, drilling, we have a

00:13:55.522 --> 00:13:57.412
horse that's never left the arena.

00:13:57.772 --> 00:13:59.422
You'll have a lot of dendrites.

00:13:59.782 --> 00:14:01.792
Well, you won't have
many dendrites actually.

00:14:01.942 --> 00:14:06.082
They'll be pruned back and you'll
have very rigid neuronal connections.

00:14:06.527 --> 00:14:12.017
If you then take that horse out for a
trail ride, they may come completely

00:14:12.017 --> 00:14:18.487
apart because they haven't built up
enough options and but a horse that's

00:14:18.487 --> 00:14:22.627
been allowed to explore a horse
that's been understood and feel safe.

00:14:23.317 --> 00:14:27.767
You know, it takes very, it takes a lot
to get those horses feeling threatened,

00:14:28.127 --> 00:14:29.917
because they can find a way out.

00:14:30.207 --> 00:14:32.187
They can resort to other behaviors.

00:14:32.527 --> 00:14:34.347
And those horses get us out of trouble.

00:14:34.597 --> 00:14:34.817
Yeah.

00:14:34.857 --> 00:14:38.777
You know, sometimes when we're
too dumb to know we've got ourself

00:14:38.777 --> 00:14:43.647
in trouble, the horse can do that
because it's got all these branches

00:14:44.137 --> 00:14:46.027
in their, in their brain connections.

00:14:46.397 --> 00:14:49.917
So I would argue with you that
have we really been effective?

00:14:50.287 --> 00:14:50.557
No,

00:14:50.557 --> 00:14:52.887
Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's well,
in certain, in certain, well, you,

00:14:52.927 --> 00:14:55.987
you're giving me it's interesting
pause for thought because I think in

00:14:55.987 --> 00:14:58.397
some, in some areas, yes, we have.

00:14:58.887 --> 00:15:00.627
And it's a question then of.

00:15:01.477 --> 00:15:05.257
This thing about dendrites, for
example, that allows a layman like

00:15:05.297 --> 00:15:11.037
me to identify why it might have
worked so well in this area or

00:15:11.047 --> 00:15:15.297
this discipline or this environment
and not so well in this other one.

00:15:15.297 --> 00:15:16.677
So I'm absolutely with you on this.

00:15:16.677 --> 00:15:20.007
So, for example, I grew up
very much with fox hunting and

00:15:20.007 --> 00:15:22.207
fox hunting in the UK,  is.

00:15:23.312 --> 00:15:28.262
You rely on your horse 100% because
the fences are can be ridiculously

00:15:28.262 --> 00:15:30.462
big that it's not a competition.

00:15:30.462 --> 00:15:32.102
They're not it's not nothing is prepared.

00:15:32.722 --> 00:15:36.812
it goes on all day and you trust
your horse's judgment completely

00:15:36.812 --> 00:15:37.912
to get you out of trouble.

00:15:38.072 --> 00:15:38.572
You might end up.

00:15:39.032 --> 00:15:42.492
Crossing the freeway and then
swimming a river and then da da da.

00:15:42.497 --> 00:15:45.302
It's very like going to war on a
horse in, in, in, in a funny way.

00:15:45.692 --> 00:15:47.912
And if the horse isn't into it and
doesn't dig it, there's, there's

00:15:47.912 --> 00:15:49.352
just no way you're gonna get killed.

00:15:49.592 --> 00:15:53.372
and but the, the way in which those
horses were produced by those old

00:15:53.372 --> 00:15:57.412
school horsemen that I grew and women
that I grew up around was all about

00:15:57.972 --> 00:16:00.712
helping the horse to find its way.

00:16:01.172 --> 00:16:05.712
and there was, there, there
was very naturalistic.

00:16:06.577 --> 00:16:09.267
aspect to it in that it
was all done socially.

00:16:09.457 --> 00:16:13.317
You always did it with mental horses
as the horse was coming up until

00:16:13.317 --> 00:16:16.087
the point that the horse sort of
graduated and became this meta horse.

00:16:16.517 --> 00:16:20.757
And then later I trained with,  a
lot with,  bullfighting mounted

00:16:20.757 --> 00:16:24.407
bullfighting,  people down in
Portugal who,  whether or not one

00:16:24.407 --> 00:16:27.657
agrees that bullfighting is sort of a
completely by the, by the horsemanship.

00:16:28.217 --> 00:16:29.607
I don't bullfight.

00:16:29.657 --> 00:16:31.137
I'm just interested in the horsemanship.

00:16:31.337 --> 00:16:34.757
The horsemanship is, is bananas
because the horse has to go in there

00:16:34.757 --> 00:16:36.327
and make all the decisions, basically.

00:16:37.422 --> 00:16:38.732
going like, yeah, absolutely.

00:16:38.732 --> 00:16:39.232
Let's go.

00:16:39.562 --> 00:16:43.782
and if there's a moment of,  I
don't really think so, or,  I'm

00:16:43.782 --> 00:16:49.062
scared or,  I just don't want to,
you're dead in two seconds because

00:16:49.062 --> 00:16:50.152
that bull is very intelligent.

00:16:50.172 --> 00:16:54.002
He knows how to get you up
against the boards and skewer you.

00:16:54.422 --> 00:17:02.817
And I noticed with those horses that
they were joyful and humorous and

00:17:02.997 --> 00:17:06.127
full of character and full of life,
even though they were effective, they

00:17:06.127 --> 00:17:07.647
were non robotic dressage horses.

00:17:07.917 --> 00:17:12.877
And then I took a lot of that training
over to what we do with horse boy,

00:17:13.427 --> 00:17:16.267
bits of the Fox hunting training and
bits of that bullfighting training.

00:17:16.477 --> 00:17:19.467
And what I noticed was that you,
you, your horse's brain seemed

00:17:19.477 --> 00:17:20.617
to change in front of you.

00:17:20.837 --> 00:17:24.347
They seem to go from, because we'd
often get donation horses, which had

00:17:24.347 --> 00:17:27.067
come out of all sorts of backgrounds
who'd arrived going, what's going on.

00:17:27.067 --> 00:17:27.097
And.

00:17:29.552 --> 00:17:33.812
they would become within some months
of this training where they're crossing

00:17:33.812 --> 00:17:35.172
the center line of their body a lot.

00:17:35.372 --> 00:17:39.002
But it's, it's also,  a lot of
outdoor time, a lot of social time,

00:17:39.002 --> 00:17:40.092
a lot of all these other things.

00:17:40.372 --> 00:17:43.522
And you end up with these horses
that absolutely look after you

00:17:43.792 --> 00:17:45.342
and show up as a professional.

00:17:45.762 --> 00:17:50.702
this dendrite thing is very interesting
to me because is it, this is the

00:17:50.702 --> 00:17:55.672
question now, is it that in certain
effective areas of horsemanship

00:17:55.702 --> 00:17:58.252
where we, we as a culture have.

00:17:59.227 --> 00:18:00.807
achieved great things with horses.

00:18:00.947 --> 00:18:03.947
Is it because we've done it in
those environments where the horse's

00:18:03.947 --> 00:18:06.657
brain can,  develop in that way?

00:18:07.257 --> 00:18:07.877
unhindered.

00:18:08.477 --> 00:18:10.857
and is it not working in
those other environments?

00:18:11.252 --> 00:18:13.202
Because we're blocking that
and getting in the way of that.

00:18:13.902 --> 00:18:15.652
And is that something that
horsemen need to know?

00:18:17.532 --> 00:18:19.102
Dr. Steven Peters: I believe
they do need to know that.

00:18:19.122 --> 00:18:22.632
In fact, it's not the discipline per se.

00:18:23.032 --> 00:18:26.952
And you're right, we have
been effective in many ways.

00:18:27.352 --> 00:18:31.082
But look at the common threads there.

00:18:31.447 --> 00:18:37.317
Those horses that you described had
to solve problems on their own, right?

00:18:37.457 --> 00:18:42.117
So they were given an internal locus of
control versus being forced to do things.

00:18:42.537 --> 00:18:47.717
They became problem solvers, which indeed
started, grew a whole forest of dendrites,

00:18:47.717 --> 00:18:47.977
Rupert Isaacson: right?

00:18:47.987 --> 00:18:52.017
Yeah, you can't force the bullring
and you can't force a horse

00:18:52.337 --> 00:18:53.937
over a big blackthorn hedge.

00:18:53.937 --> 00:18:54.917
It just, you just can't.

00:18:54.997 --> 00:18:56.107
They're just not going to do it.

00:18:56.147 --> 00:18:56.417
Yeah.

00:18:56.487 --> 00:18:56.737
Yeah.

00:18:57.562 --> 00:18:57.982
They didn't check

00:18:57.992 --> 00:19:01.752
Dr. Steven Peters: out because they,
they had an internal sense of safety too.

00:19:01.752 --> 00:19:06.952
So something happened in, in their
training that allowed them to, because

00:19:06.952 --> 00:19:09.622
horses are constantly asking, am I safe?

00:19:09.652 --> 00:19:10.242
Am I safe?

00:19:10.252 --> 00:19:10.882
Am I safe?

00:19:11.222 --> 00:19:15.522
If we can answer that question,
then, then we can draw off their

00:19:15.532 --> 00:19:20.202
curiosity because you can't be
curious if you're being threatened.

00:19:20.882 --> 00:19:24.502
So once they become curious
and can get that dopamine hit.

00:19:24.892 --> 00:19:28.122
You know, then they seek it out.

00:19:28.322 --> 00:19:30.002
They become super learners.

00:19:31.162 --> 00:19:32.462
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
that's exactly that.

00:19:32.462 --> 00:19:35.932
That's what I found is that the
horses and it doesn't seem to matter

00:19:36.212 --> 00:19:39.102
what background they come out of,
you know, we get horses that are all

00:19:39.112 --> 00:19:42.972
messed up in all kinds of ways because
generally, you know, donation horses

00:19:42.972 --> 00:19:44.412
are given to you for a reason, right?

00:19:44.972 --> 00:19:47.432
And we find that with this approach.

00:19:48.782 --> 00:19:54.432
Their personalities emerge and they become
these meta horses relatively quickly.

00:19:54.432 --> 00:19:56.212
I'd say within about 18 months or so.

00:19:56.772 --> 00:19:58.592
but dendrites, this is phenomenal.

00:19:58.632 --> 00:19:59.662
This is very interesting.

00:19:59.662 --> 00:20:00.582
So basically what you're.

00:20:01.747 --> 00:20:06.887
For my little brain to understand this,
is it that I'm therefore, I'm perhaps

00:20:06.887 --> 00:20:12.307
receiving a horse whose,  dendrites have
been snipped and clipped and pruned, and

00:20:12.307 --> 00:20:19.027
it's a bit like a forest of a plantation
of,  planted conifers,  and then those

00:20:19.037 --> 00:20:23.877
trees are allowed to find their way within
the brain, and then suddenly you have an

00:20:23.887 --> 00:20:28.457
ecosystem with all sorts of other little
species in there, and da da da, which is

00:20:28.467 --> 00:20:35.477
now an actual forest and what it needed
was to be allowed to find its ecosystem.

00:20:36.237 --> 00:20:36.887
I love this.

00:20:36.927 --> 00:20:40.237
I love this analogy that you have
of You called it arborization.

00:20:40.247 --> 00:20:40.537
Was that

00:20:40.547 --> 00:20:40.927
Dr. Steven Peters: was it?

00:20:41.607 --> 00:20:42.127
Arborization.

00:20:42.287 --> 00:20:42.797
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:20:42.937 --> 00:20:44.387
So tree ization.

00:20:44.547 --> 00:20:45.647
Arbor tree, right?

00:20:46.187 --> 00:20:46.427
Like

00:20:46.427 --> 00:20:48.597
Dr. Steven Peters: an arbor,
like branching off because these

00:20:48.907 --> 00:20:52.937
dendrites will branch off and
then rub against other branches.

00:20:53.207 --> 00:20:58.117
So then now you have a neural
network that is really wide.

00:20:58.487 --> 00:21:02.672
And this should be really empowering
to horse owners because You

00:21:02.732 --> 00:21:07.282
actually are responsible for the
creation of dendrites or the pruning

00:21:07.292 --> 00:21:09.372
back of dendrites of your horse.

00:21:09.372 --> 00:21:14.742
So in the right environment, those old
dude ranch horses, they, they got mixed

00:21:14.742 --> 00:21:19.592
messages, never felt safe, had no way
to escape external locus of control.

00:21:19.592 --> 00:21:21.322
Their mouths pull down at the same time.

00:21:21.322 --> 00:21:22.212
They're getting spurred.

00:21:22.652 --> 00:21:23.442
They check out.

00:21:24.027 --> 00:21:25.467
and they become robotic.

00:21:25.527 --> 00:21:28.947
And if you were to take those brains
and look at them under a microscope,

00:21:29.307 --> 00:21:32.337
you'd find just very sparse dendrites.

00:21:32.717 --> 00:21:36.217
They don't know how to solve
a problem, you know, and, and

00:21:36.287 --> 00:21:39.177
actually their nervous systems
have, for the most part, shut down.

00:21:40.207 --> 00:21:45.022
If you take those horses and You can
reach a point where you're not going to

00:21:45.022 --> 00:21:49.522
get that good a return, you get an older
horse that's constantly been traumatized,

00:21:50.582 --> 00:21:52.522
you know, you, you're still helping them.

00:21:53.192 --> 00:21:55.982
But, you know, if you can
set up an environment where

00:21:55.982 --> 00:21:57.332
you answer those questions.

00:21:57.462 --> 00:21:58.342
Yes, you're safe.

00:21:58.652 --> 00:22:00.032
Yes, you can explore.

00:22:00.352 --> 00:22:05.982
Yes, you can problem solve, set it up
for your horse to solve the problem.

00:22:07.072 --> 00:22:08.552
You can cross the screen.

00:22:08.967 --> 00:22:13.687
By allowing your horse to put its head
down so it has binocular vision, so

00:22:13.687 --> 00:22:15.957
it splashes in the pond a little bit.

00:22:18.112 --> 00:22:22.512
So that,  it, it heads up to that
pond and then finally puts its feet

00:22:22.512 --> 00:22:25.722
in and crosses and you can come
back and do it again and again.

00:22:26.222 --> 00:22:30.832
Or you could take that horse, get
them to the edge of the stream.

00:22:30.842 --> 00:22:33.982
When they balk, you spur them
and they jump across like a frog.

00:22:34.332 --> 00:22:35.692
That's not a water crossing.

00:22:36.262 --> 00:22:41.002
And you could say in both instances,
that's a water crossing, but I guarantee

00:22:41.002 --> 00:22:44.562
you what happens in the horse's brain
is much different than the horse.

00:22:44.562 --> 00:22:46.222
That's been allowed to solve that problem.

00:22:46.972 --> 00:22:47.582
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:22:47.842 --> 00:22:53.972
So, you know, I think a lot of, a lot
of, you know, good horsemen, women have

00:22:54.262 --> 00:22:59.662
known that yes, if you let's, let's,
let's take the,  water crossing analogy

00:22:59.672 --> 00:23:03.932
from,  that yes, if you allow the horse
to do it in his time, if you perhaps

00:23:03.932 --> 00:23:07.962
bring in a mentor horse, if you do all
the things that set the horse up for

00:23:07.962 --> 00:23:12.562
success, partly because it's just safer
for you,  and more efficient, and then

00:23:12.562 --> 00:23:18.062
that horse goes into that trailer, goes,
Through that stream,  does that new

00:23:18.062 --> 00:23:20.652
behavior, let's say, and then finds it.

00:23:20.812 --> 00:23:26.332
It's a what's I think that that we know
that there's a lot of,  good horsemen and

00:23:26.332 --> 00:23:27.962
women who would do that sort of thing.

00:23:28.172 --> 00:23:31.492
Someone instinctively because of
their empathetic natures, but it's

00:23:31.522 --> 00:23:36.502
very, very useful for them to know why
it works because this is always the

00:23:36.502 --> 00:23:40.312
thing when when horseman is talking
to horseman or therapist to therapist.

00:23:40.952 --> 00:23:43.532
And they want to say, well,
I'm, I'm advocating here for

00:23:43.532 --> 00:23:45.072
a more empathetic approach.

00:23:45.302 --> 00:23:47.442
And someone just says, Oh, you're
just a soft hearted hippie.

00:23:47.982 --> 00:23:51.012
If you can say, well, actually,
no, I just spoke to Dr.

00:23:51.022 --> 00:23:52.252
Steve and Dr.

00:23:52.252 --> 00:23:57.692
Steve told me about this thing called
dendrites and not dandruff, but dendrites.

00:23:57.982 --> 00:24:02.642
And,  and,  these dendrites,  are
important because if, if the horse hasn't

00:24:02.642 --> 00:24:07.082
got them or doesn't have enough of them,
they can't make the decisions that will

00:24:07.282 --> 00:24:09.412
you out of trouble, let alone them.

00:24:09.632 --> 00:24:10.512
And these dendrites.

00:24:11.112 --> 00:24:15.522
have to arborize and come into contact
with other dendrites and rub against

00:24:15.632 --> 00:24:19.832
each other and stimulate each other
and create a problem solving ecosystem.

00:24:20.022 --> 00:24:23.682
But it comes down to that's something you
can explain to people and they can get.

00:24:24.332 --> 00:24:24.602
that's

00:24:24.602 --> 00:24:25.422
Dr. Steven Peters: fascinating.

00:24:26.032 --> 00:24:27.322
You're exactly right.

00:24:27.392 --> 00:24:30.222
And that there are a number
of very fine horsemen.

00:24:30.222 --> 00:24:33.532
I don't, didn't mean to just go
back and just denigrate things

00:24:33.542 --> 00:24:34.952
that had happened in the past.

00:24:35.202 --> 00:24:36.732
And that this is an enlightened.

00:24:37.152 --> 00:24:42.292
You know, , because there, there
are wonderful horsemen and women

00:24:43.752 --> 00:24:47.962
that understand the how they
understand how to get this to happen.

00:24:48.712 --> 00:24:50.212
They just don't have the why.

00:24:51.292 --> 00:24:51.912
Absolutely.

00:24:52.352 --> 00:24:56.512
And if they have the why, then
they can fine tune the how.

00:24:56.632 --> 00:24:57.322
Absolutely.

00:24:57.382 --> 00:24:57.582
And

00:24:57.722 --> 00:25:02.002
Rupert Isaacson: optimize it and replicate
it and show other people how to do it.

00:25:02.022 --> 00:25:02.332
okay.

00:25:02.332 --> 00:25:04.742
So what I want to do here is
I want to dial back a moment.

00:25:04.942 --> 00:25:05.562
tell us.

00:25:06.157 --> 00:25:08.197
what is the main difference?

00:25:09.147 --> 00:25:13.827
What are the main differences between
the horse brain and the human brain?

00:25:14.277 --> 00:25:16.347
And what are the key ones
that we need to know?

00:25:16.767 --> 00:25:18.247
Those of us that are working with horses.

00:25:20.547 --> 00:25:21.187
Horses

00:25:21.217 --> 00:25:24.737
Dr. Steven Peters: do not have an
area of the brain and what we call

00:25:24.767 --> 00:25:31.857
prefrontal cortex that, that allows
them to have abstract thought.

00:25:32.177 --> 00:25:36.307
So as far as we know, they're
not planning out into the future.

00:25:36.317 --> 00:25:40.107
There aren't horses that say, Wow,
I'm going to put aside this,  this

00:25:40.107 --> 00:25:43.697
flake of hay until Tuesday and come
back and eat it when I'm hungrier.

00:25:44.277 --> 00:25:44.607
Right?

00:25:44.757 --> 00:25:49.827
So they're not forming these
contingency plans that we know of.

00:25:50.327 --> 00:25:55.487
but if they don't have abstract thought,
what gets us in trouble is we do.

00:25:56.127 --> 00:25:57.977
So let me give you an example.

00:25:58.962 --> 00:26:02.482
It's just rampant in the horse
world that people say that

00:26:02.482 --> 00:26:04.632
horse needs to be respectful.

00:26:04.642 --> 00:26:06.122
They're disrespectful.

00:26:06.572 --> 00:26:08.412
Well, that's an abstract concept.

00:26:08.922 --> 00:26:13.412
You know, the horse does not say, well,
I'm going to put one over on my owner

00:26:13.412 --> 00:26:16.712
and then go back to the pasture and have
a big laugh with all the other horses

00:26:17.102 --> 00:26:20.482
and what I've been able to all the
trouble I've been able to cause here.

00:26:21.642 --> 00:26:26.452
What actually happens is the horse
is more a motor sensory creature.

00:26:26.992 --> 00:26:31.087
And so if they're stepping into our
space, It's because we're doing something

00:26:31.087 --> 00:26:33.427
to inadvertently allow them to do that.

00:26:34.427 --> 00:26:38.947
or we've actually trained them to do
that without knowing it, but they're

00:26:38.947 --> 00:26:43.707
just simply being a horse and basing
things on the signals that we're giving.

00:26:45.872 --> 00:26:50.922
And the reason that I'm so,  hung up
on this idea of respect and disrespect

00:26:51.422 --> 00:26:55.722
is then it gives the human permission
to punish the horse and discipline the

00:26:55.722 --> 00:27:01.362
horse where I don't really know that that
plays a big role in, in,  In learning.

00:27:01.982 --> 00:27:04.602
certainly that takes away
the safety, et cetera.

00:27:04.852 --> 00:27:09.682
So I think in trying to understand
that the horse is a motor sensory

00:27:09.682 --> 00:27:16.362
creature and stop putting using our
big frontal lobe to put all this

00:27:16.462 --> 00:27:18.662
abstract thought in their mind.

00:27:19.582 --> 00:27:22.442
It clouds, our, our thinking.

00:27:22.442 --> 00:27:24.642
So the big difference
is that frontal lobe.

00:27:25.032 --> 00:27:26.892
Otherwise, we're pretty similar.

00:27:27.427 --> 00:27:33.307
We each have six cortical layers in
our, in our brains of cells, you know,

00:27:33.717 --> 00:27:39.257
we have a, well, actually I take that
back in the horse brain, there's some,

00:27:39.377 --> 00:27:42.067
in some areas they far exceed us.

00:27:43.237 --> 00:27:47.047
You know, their cerebellum, the
structure that hangs to the back of the

00:27:47.047 --> 00:27:54.407
brain, is responsible for fine motor
movement, timing, balance, sequencing.

00:27:54.887 --> 00:27:58.297
You know, they have these huge
limbs, and you know, they're

00:27:58.637 --> 00:28:00.687
in a trot, just in a diagonal.

00:28:00.927 --> 00:28:04.157
If you understood what had to happen
in the brain for that to occur,

00:28:04.717 --> 00:28:06.717
it is pretty fascinating stuff.

00:28:07.987 --> 00:28:14.307
So, and there are olfactory bulbs for
smell, which is a primitive sense.

00:28:14.807 --> 00:28:15.747
are enormous.

00:28:15.787 --> 00:28:18.497
If you, if you dissect out the
brain, you'll find that they're

00:28:18.497 --> 00:28:24.357
enormous and ours are like thin
little shoestrings in comparison.

00:28:24.807 --> 00:28:30.787
So,  there are so many differences
in the way they perceive the world.

00:28:31.897 --> 00:28:37.407
but the main difference is that
we have more white matter and more

00:28:37.487 --> 00:28:40.827
bulk in our frontal lobes that
allow us to think more abstractly.

00:28:41.947 --> 00:28:44.267
Rupert Isaacson: Let me ask you a
question on this then because I think

00:28:44.277 --> 00:28:48.767
anyone who lives with horses,  you
know, there's a difference, I think,

00:28:48.767 --> 00:28:54.142
between People who do horse horses
as a hobby or a sport and people

00:28:54.142 --> 00:28:55.532
who really, really live with horses.

00:28:55.902 --> 00:28:58.772
not everyone who really, really lives
with horses is nice to their horses,

00:28:59.112 --> 00:29:01.772
but let's assume that many of them are.

00:29:02.612 --> 00:29:09.832
I think that for, for a lot of us who live
with our horses, we do observe behaviors

00:29:09.872 --> 00:29:15.462
though that look rather prefrontal cortex
like, for example, the sense of humor.

00:29:16.062 --> 00:29:18.402
and you say the horse doesn't
plan to put one over on you.

00:29:18.957 --> 00:29:23.487
except when he seems to and
seems to enjoy the process and

00:29:23.487 --> 00:29:24.417
have a bit of a laugh about it.

00:29:24.577 --> 00:29:28.757
And when he seems to do it, it
to his or her herd mates as well.

00:29:29.237 --> 00:29:35.837
if humor, for example, is perspective
taking that in order to do something

00:29:35.837 --> 00:29:39.612
because it's entertaining or funny,
requires one to sort of see the

00:29:39.612 --> 00:29:45.612
situation from the outside, what,  human
psychologists will call theory of mind.

00:29:45.612 --> 00:29:49.132
I'm not going to anthropomorphize
that onto the horse, but nonetheless,

00:29:49.232 --> 00:29:53.732
definitely humor definitely sometimes
now, Oh, I can, I can, I can

00:29:53.742 --> 00:29:54.972
mess with you a little bit here.

00:29:55.122 --> 00:29:58.972
And I have a, I have, for example, a carte
blanche with my horses about messing with

00:29:58.972 --> 00:30:01.812
me because,  my horses have to be so good.

00:30:02.107 --> 00:30:04.577
When I'm working with the clients
that I have, like they've got to

00:30:04.587 --> 00:30:08.037
be so good that I give them what
I, a lot of what I call crazy time.

00:30:08.602 --> 00:30:12.012
where they can just go really nuts on sort
of playgrounds that I build for them where

00:30:12.012 --> 00:30:14.612
they go running around socially together.

00:30:16.062 --> 00:30:19.862
Also,  they can mess with
me when I'm riding them.

00:30:20.812 --> 00:30:24.482
I have a sort of amnesty thing on
them, which is if you want to kind

00:30:24.482 --> 00:30:26.972
of run away with me a little bit,
if you want to kind of throw a buck,

00:30:26.972 --> 00:30:32.942
if you want to express yourself in
a way that is humorous, have at it.

00:30:33.422 --> 00:30:34.052
Because.

00:30:34.802 --> 00:30:37.322
I ask you to be so good
so much of the time.

00:30:37.762 --> 00:30:38.112
Totally.

00:30:38.112 --> 00:30:38.772
This is your time.

00:30:38.772 --> 00:30:39.692
It's totally fair enough.

00:30:40.482 --> 00:30:46.442
They are my anthropomorphizing that
they are Exercising a sense of humor

00:30:46.442 --> 00:30:52.182
with me and with each other or are
they actually and if they are If

00:30:52.182 --> 00:30:55.612
that's not coming from the prefrontal
cortex, where's it coming from?

00:30:58.012 --> 00:31:01.522
Dr. Steven Peters: This is the fantastic
million dollar question, Rupert.

00:31:02.082 --> 00:31:07.942
Because I've dissected out so many horse
brains, and I'm amazed at the number

00:31:07.942 --> 00:31:13.682
of convolutions and the folded gyri and
sulci, which means if you ironed out

00:31:13.692 --> 00:31:16.532
that brain, it would have a huge mass.

00:31:17.312 --> 00:31:17.742
And...

00:31:18.267 --> 00:31:22.387
What we've done with all animals,
we treat them as lower mammals.

00:31:22.737 --> 00:31:23.167
Why?

00:31:23.197 --> 00:31:29.047
Because we, we, we use the standard
of human intelligence, and we come up

00:31:29.047 --> 00:31:31.287
with human tasks to measure them by.

00:31:31.767 --> 00:31:36.107
Whereas they're, they're
fantastic creatures as horses

00:31:36.117 --> 00:31:36.927
that we underappreciate.

00:31:37.867 --> 00:31:44.127
So as an evidence based person in
my response, what I say is, well,

00:31:44.127 --> 00:31:47.187
so far, science hasn't shown this.

00:31:47.187 --> 00:31:51.917
In fact, most, you know, literature
would show that there isn't a

00:31:51.937 --> 00:31:53.717
prefrontal cortex in the horse.

00:31:54.047 --> 00:31:58.627
But, you know, I would, I would
say that those are arbitrary

00:31:58.637 --> 00:32:00.867
boundaries and they change over time.

00:32:01.107 --> 00:32:02.657
So what I tell people is.

00:32:03.032 --> 00:32:04.482
Look at the function.

00:32:04.672 --> 00:32:09.172
Don't look at where that boundary lies
and says, well, this is prefrontal

00:32:09.182 --> 00:32:16.242
cortex and the horse doesn't actually
have one because I know over time with

00:32:16.372 --> 00:32:21.752
the sophisticated medical instruments
that we now have that I have no doubt

00:32:21.952 --> 00:32:26.562
that we are going to find that the horse
has indeed has a prefrontal cortex and

00:32:26.562 --> 00:32:30.727
indeed is capable of of much more than
we've ever given the horse credit for.

00:32:30.937 --> 00:32:32.867
We just haven't had a
good way of measuring it.

00:32:33.147 --> 00:32:36.247
And our measurement style
has been anthropomorphic.

00:32:36.657 --> 00:32:37.037
Got it.

00:32:37.217 --> 00:32:37.457
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:32:37.457 --> 00:32:38.337
So, so yes.

00:32:38.727 --> 00:32:42.997
Could it be that there are parts of the
horse brain that behave in a way like

00:32:42.997 --> 00:32:48.357
a prefrontal cortex,  that we just as
yet can't identify, but clearly we can

00:32:48.367 --> 00:32:52.877
see that behavior must be coming from
somewhere because the, the behavior seems.

00:32:53.437 --> 00:32:57.197
Ubiquitous,  to the species that
they are, they are by nature, a

00:32:57.197 --> 00:33:01.227
very playful, species is one of the
great, wonderful things about horses.

00:33:01.757 --> 00:33:04.757
But yes, if it's not coming
from prefrontal cortex,

00:33:04.757 --> 00:33:06.197
if it's not coming from.

00:33:06.847 --> 00:33:09.977
a human type area of the brain
where we would produce that from,

00:33:10.177 --> 00:33:12.227
or I'm going to play a joke on
that person that's planning.

00:33:12.227 --> 00:33:12.757
That's logic.

00:33:12.757 --> 00:33:13.337
That's reason.

00:33:13.527 --> 00:33:14.857
That's emotional regulation.

00:33:15.047 --> 00:33:16.377
Yes, that's prefrontal cortex.

00:33:16.657 --> 00:33:18.027
If the horse doesn't appear to have one.

00:33:18.517 --> 00:33:19.067
It's fast.

00:33:19.157 --> 00:33:20.637
It's intriguing to me.

00:33:21.677 --> 00:33:26.567
What parts of the brain would be
producing a similar type of response?

00:33:27.487 --> 00:33:28.067
do you think?

00:33:28.512 --> 00:33:28.842
Something

00:33:28.872 --> 00:33:30.942
Dr. Steven Peters: that I think
it's just a matter of where we

00:33:30.942 --> 00:33:35.352
arbitrarily have drawn a fence line
and we've come up with a criterion.

00:33:35.362 --> 00:33:38.462
This is prefrontal cortex because
we say mice have prefrontal

00:33:38.462 --> 00:33:41.012
cortex, but we say a horse doesn't.

00:33:41.532 --> 00:33:46.392
And I think, you know, if you go back 20
years ago when I was in school, they said,

00:33:46.422 --> 00:33:51.622
Oh, the human brain reaches like age 25
and never ever grows any more neurons.

00:33:51.662 --> 00:33:52.012
Right.

00:33:52.102 --> 00:33:54.172
Well, we know that that's now false.

00:33:54.442 --> 00:33:54.702
Yeah.

00:33:54.722 --> 00:33:56.032
You know, and.

00:33:56.367 --> 00:34:01.727
Oftentimes things we said 20 years ago,
almost seem ludicrous now, but we held

00:34:01.727 --> 00:34:05.547
it as if it were written in, in cement.

00:34:05.767 --> 00:34:09.277
I like to think of things
much more out of the, the box.

00:34:09.277 --> 00:34:15.407
And I think you see the, the,
behaviors you would associate

00:34:15.407 --> 00:34:16.957
with the prefrontal cortex.

00:34:17.577 --> 00:34:21.177
Do I have to point in the brain
where that prefrontal cortex is?

00:34:21.582 --> 00:34:22.262
Listen to this.

00:34:22.272 --> 00:34:23.952
There's a guy Wilder Penfield.

00:34:24.012 --> 00:34:25.722
He was a Canadian neurosurgeon.

00:34:26.522 --> 00:34:32.052
And what he would do is he would stimulate
electrically parts of people's brains.

00:34:32.592 --> 00:34:36.542
And he might say, okay, I'm going to
go on this motor, the sensory strip

00:34:36.542 --> 00:34:40.352
here, and I'm just going to touch
where, where the index finger is.

00:34:40.962 --> 00:34:41.932
And he may touch there.

00:34:41.932 --> 00:34:44.672
And that patient might say, well,
that tingles my index finger.

00:34:45.312 --> 00:34:48.052
Another patient, exact same area.

00:34:48.092 --> 00:34:51.172
Cause stereotypically they can
hone in right on that area.

00:34:51.537 --> 00:34:53.777
touches them there, they say,
Oh, I feel that in my wrist.

00:34:54.837 --> 00:34:58.087
And then somebody else might say,
well, I felt that up on my arm.

00:34:58.657 --> 00:35:03.477
So what we learn is that
it's not like the textbooks.

00:35:03.497 --> 00:35:06.787
You look at a textbook and you got
color coded areas of the brain.

00:35:07.397 --> 00:35:11.557
You know, somebody who's
blind, for example, that's

00:35:11.557 --> 00:35:13.017
not just fallow back there.

00:35:13.027 --> 00:35:18.337
The occipital lobe, you know, that
occipital lobe will say, okay, since

00:35:18.437 --> 00:35:23.417
we're not receiving input from the
visual system, let's let's send

00:35:23.417 --> 00:35:24.977
some of that to auditory system.

00:35:26.442 --> 00:35:31.632
So we know that sometimes like blind
musicians like Stevie Wonder or Ray

00:35:31.632 --> 00:35:36.122
Orbison, it appears that they may
be using a lot more of their brain

00:35:37.127 --> 00:35:41.417
That they would be using for visual
stimuli for auditory stimuli, which

00:35:41.417 --> 00:35:45.787
may give them perfect pitch or a better
understanding of auditory because

00:35:45.787 --> 00:35:47.907
they're using so much more brain force.

00:35:48.547 --> 00:35:52.197
So, if you look at your brain,
because it's like a snowflake

00:35:52.197 --> 00:35:53.907
your brain is not like my brain.

00:35:54.147 --> 00:35:59.567
It's based on all your experiences,
your brain is just Oregon, which

00:35:59.577 --> 00:36:04.277
interacts with the world and creates
something that helps us survive.

00:36:04.887 --> 00:36:05.207
And.

00:36:05.762 --> 00:36:09.872
Horses just because we're using
a human measure to measure them.

00:36:10.272 --> 00:36:13.462
I think once we find
functional MRI, we can do that.

00:36:13.822 --> 00:36:16.822
And for your listeners, that's
a, that's imaging where we can

00:36:16.822 --> 00:36:18.592
look at the brain in real time.

00:36:19.222 --> 00:36:22.282
If we can do that with a horse
and that's just down the road.

00:36:22.757 --> 00:36:27.227
then we'll be able to see some of
these prefrontal behaviors and know

00:36:27.227 --> 00:36:29.037
exactly where that's coming from.

00:36:29.367 --> 00:36:33.267
And indeed we may redraw the map
and say, Oh, well here's, here's

00:36:33.267 --> 00:36:34.717
the horse's prefrontal lobe.

00:36:36.477 --> 00:36:38.237
Rupert Isaacson: So it's, it's,
it's possible to say maybe

00:36:38.237 --> 00:36:39.257
we haven't discovered it yet.

00:36:39.267 --> 00:36:39.467
Yeah.

00:36:39.467 --> 00:36:42.337
Because I mean, and when,
when, when one observes.

00:36:43.047 --> 00:36:47.087
horses in a very natural setting or
wild horses, they clearly are making

00:36:47.547 --> 00:36:51.887
complex decisions about that involves
some planning, like when they're going

00:36:51.887 --> 00:36:56.567
to change,  pastures, when they're
going to go to water, when they're

00:36:56.577 --> 00:37:00.937
not going to go to water,  being able
to work around predator movements.

00:37:01.367 --> 00:37:02.947
they don't just blindly wander into them.

00:37:03.167 --> 00:37:06.267
They know more or less what
the predator movements are

00:37:06.687 --> 00:37:08.127
and make decisions around it.

00:37:08.227 --> 00:37:10.847
but yes, where's it coming from?

00:37:10.967 --> 00:37:14.157
it's really interesting that you
talk, talk about Penfield, right?

00:37:14.447 --> 00:37:16.007
there's a book I recently read.

00:37:16.027 --> 00:37:18.697
The body has a mind of
its own about body matter.

00:37:19.387 --> 00:37:22.177
And one of the, one of the things
that the authors of that book,

00:37:22.277 --> 00:37:25.567
touched upon was that equestrians.

00:37:26.142 --> 00:37:32.292
have a uniquely complex form of body
mapping that they have to do because

00:37:32.292 --> 00:37:36.112
they have to make the entire horse a
part of their body map, but the horse

00:37:36.112 --> 00:37:38.402
has to do the same thing to the rider.

00:37:38.572 --> 00:37:41.972
And this is why it's sort of a miracle
that the thing can even happen.

00:37:42.132 --> 00:37:44.632
And then you've got these two
completely different brains.

00:37:45.002 --> 00:37:47.212
trying to meld, but yet it happens.

00:37:47.482 --> 00:37:48.802
Yet this miracle happens.

00:37:49.302 --> 00:37:55.212
if, if, if we know that there are these
main differences between the horse and

00:37:55.212 --> 00:38:04.212
the human brain, what, what do you think,
is the main difference between, and then

00:38:04.422 --> 00:38:06.352
we talk about brains being snowflakes.

00:38:06.492 --> 00:38:07.472
My brain's not your brain.

00:38:08.592 --> 00:38:10.682
If we can respect that there are
these differences between the

00:38:10.692 --> 00:38:14.942
horse and the human brain, what are
the main differences between the

00:38:15.602 --> 00:38:17.882
neurotypical and the autistic brain?

00:38:19.552 --> 00:38:23.572
And then we might need to know both
of those things if we're going to then

00:38:23.582 --> 00:38:26.812
work with those populations with horses.

00:38:27.042 --> 00:38:30.322
First we need to know, if I have
a somewhat neurotypical brain, I

00:38:30.322 --> 00:38:33.452
need to know that the horse's brain
has these fundamental differences

00:38:33.452 --> 00:38:34.942
that can give me a roadmap here.

00:38:35.492 --> 00:38:37.712
Now I need to work with these humans.

00:38:38.272 --> 00:38:40.562
that are like me and a
little bit not like me.

00:38:40.792 --> 00:38:44.142
And then how do I put all three
of us together in a triumvirate?

00:38:44.682 --> 00:38:48.162
Talk to us about the differences
between the autistic brain

00:38:48.242 --> 00:38:50.412
and the neurotypical brain.

00:38:50.762 --> 00:38:52.382
If you, if you feel that there are some.

00:38:54.322 --> 00:38:54.932
Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah.

00:38:55.062 --> 00:38:58.612
well, one area that
scientists looked at is, 37.

00:38:58.962 --> 00:39:00.372
Brodman's area 37.

00:39:04.662 --> 00:39:05.612
Area 37.

00:39:05.872 --> 00:39:12.212
Now Brodman was a neuroanatomist
and he mapped out something like 53

00:39:12.622 --> 00:39:18.372
brain areas and said these areas are
responsible for these, these behaviors.

00:39:19.587 --> 00:39:23.237
we don't use it much anymore because
now we found there must be about

00:39:23.247 --> 00:39:30.817
350 different areas and it's more
important how they're connected than

00:39:30.817 --> 00:39:32.737
the job that they necessarily do.

00:39:33.507 --> 00:39:38.927
And that that involves these
dendrites long axons with white

00:39:38.927 --> 00:39:41.057
matter wrapping myelination.

00:39:41.422 --> 00:39:43.722
that allow us to learn.

00:39:44.512 --> 00:39:47.452
There's some thought that this area 37.

00:39:47.722 --> 00:39:49.592
Well, there's not thought
about that because we call

00:39:49.592 --> 00:39:52.052
it the fusiform facial area.

00:39:54.212 --> 00:39:59.532
And when people in a functional MRI
look at faces, that area lights up.

00:39:59.932 --> 00:40:04.342
Well, it doesn't seem to light
up with people who are autistic.

00:40:04.782 --> 00:40:11.177
In fact, that area is used to
interpret facial expression,

00:40:11.747 --> 00:40:13.387
social facial expression.

00:40:14.077 --> 00:40:19.637
And that doesn't seem to be happening
with people who are autistic.

00:40:19.987 --> 00:40:25.167
And so for me,  oftentimes
even people I know well, out of

00:40:25.167 --> 00:40:29.417
context, I can't, I can't put the
pieces of their face together.

00:40:29.907 --> 00:40:35.887
I may see their eyes and their nose and,
and things, but I can't put it together.

00:40:35.887 --> 00:40:37.127
Let's say as Rupert.

00:40:37.717 --> 00:40:40.977
But then I hear your voice and it's
in context and pretty soon it all

00:40:40.977 --> 00:40:45.527
comes together, but I get this like
deer in the headlights lost look, even

00:40:45.527 --> 00:40:49.357
with people I know sometimes where
I can't put all of that together.

00:40:49.647 --> 00:40:53.847
And then that impedes my social
interaction, because I'm not picking

00:40:53.847 --> 00:40:57.957
up all those little nuances, you know,
I bore the hell out of somebody and

00:40:57.957 --> 00:41:03.617
if everybody's yawning and, you know,
or somebody's feeling threatened.

00:41:04.047 --> 00:41:09.657
if it's only in terms of their facial
expression, I may have trouble picking

00:41:09.657 --> 00:41:17.947
that up, but oddly enough, I'm in,
I recognize patterns very easily.

00:41:18.377 --> 00:41:20.717
You know, I recognize patterns
that I don't understand that

00:41:20.747 --> 00:41:22.297
other people aren't picking up.

00:41:22.812 --> 00:41:26.862
And so when I go out and interact with
a horse, that horse is giving me all

00:41:26.872 --> 00:41:31.772
these patterns, you know, I'm seeing,
you know, where the head is, I'm seeing

00:41:31.772 --> 00:41:36.472
where the jaw is, you know, I'm, I'm
noticing how tight they are, or how,

00:41:36.882 --> 00:41:39.352
you know, how wide their eye is.

00:41:39.352 --> 00:41:43.552
And so, almost like in a
snapshot, I picked that all up.

00:41:43.732 --> 00:41:50.952
And I've come to think that that's,
that's my neurodivergence that,

00:41:51.132 --> 00:41:54.882
that my brain sort of works that
way and automatically sees patterns.

00:41:55.212 --> 00:41:57.962
I think that's why I love nature
and I'm often a remote setting.

00:41:58.482 --> 00:42:02.682
Where I go out on hikes and I feel
comfortable because I recognize all the

00:42:02.682 --> 00:42:08.192
patterns in, in nature, and it feels
very at home like, but you send me to

00:42:08.192 --> 00:42:10.732
a cocktail party and I am at a loss.

00:42:12.262 --> 00:42:12.822
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:42:13.592 --> 00:42:17.082
So, although I guess one could
argue that a cocktail party is part

00:42:17.082 --> 00:42:20.292
of nature if humans are natural.

00:42:20.422 --> 00:42:24.892
Yeah, let's let's let's
replace a campfire.

00:42:25.452 --> 00:42:27.082
but I guess at a campfire.

00:42:27.437 --> 00:42:32.187
You have the sort of option of
engaging directly in the banter

00:42:32.217 --> 00:42:36.967
and the small talk or, you know,
hanging back a bit and looking at

00:42:36.967 --> 00:42:38.547
the stars, but feeling connected.

00:42:38.867 --> 00:42:43.877
Whereas in a cocktail party, you're
either doing the cut and thrust

00:42:43.877 --> 00:42:49.587
rapier, you know, fencing of wit, or
you're not, and it's one or the other.

00:42:49.647 --> 00:42:55.137
And so you're either in or you're
out, whereas in a more naturalistic.

00:42:55.777 --> 00:42:56.707
Social setting.

00:42:57.307 --> 00:43:01.127
you could have that going on and people
with neurodivergence being able to

00:43:02.127 --> 00:43:05.197
be part of it as much or as little
as they wanted, perhaps, you know,

00:43:05.207 --> 00:43:08.087
Dr. Steven Peters: there's so much
so many idiosyncrasies and so many

00:43:08.137 --> 00:43:13.117
things that in this neurodivergence
and it's different for for all of us.

00:43:13.117 --> 00:43:17.807
But that's why my wife is often
saying, you know, are you just being

00:43:17.807 --> 00:43:20.157
an asshole or is this your, your.

00:43:21.222 --> 00:43:22.352
You know, your autism,

00:43:23.262 --> 00:43:26.182
Rupert Isaacson: my mom,
my mom, listen to me, Dr.

00:43:26.182 --> 00:43:30.052
Freud, my mom, my wife says
exactly the same thing to me, but

00:43:33.102 --> 00:43:36.632
Dr. Steven Peters: I can
be laser focused hours yet.

00:43:36.652 --> 00:43:38.272
I'm easily distractible.

00:43:38.502 --> 00:43:40.742
So there's all these, you
know, there's all these.

00:43:41.202 --> 00:43:42.362
inconsistencies.

00:43:42.692 --> 00:43:48.742
But when you, your original question
was about the horse for, for me, where

00:43:48.762 --> 00:43:51.022
sensory overload can be a problem.

00:43:51.752 --> 00:43:55.092
I like for my messages to be very clear.

00:43:55.402 --> 00:43:58.862
And so I'm always trying
to open up an avenue.

00:43:59.562 --> 00:44:00.572
And reduce the noise.

00:44:00.642 --> 00:44:03.852
I don't want sensory overload,
so I need to reduce the noise

00:44:03.852 --> 00:44:05.482
so I can understand the signal.

00:44:06.212 --> 00:44:08.942
And so I, I interact
with my horse that way.

00:44:08.972 --> 00:44:11.862
Am I bringing noise into our relationship?

00:44:12.202 --> 00:44:16.642
I have to be more clear in,
in my communication with

00:44:16.642 --> 00:44:18.632
you so that we can connect.

00:44:19.032 --> 00:44:23.087
And I have to reduce the noise
so I can understand what message

00:44:23.087 --> 00:44:24.357
you're sending back to me.

00:44:24.797 --> 00:44:32.737
And so it's this sensory communication
between both of us that resets

00:44:32.737 --> 00:44:34.137
both of our nervous systems.

00:44:34.177 --> 00:44:35.897
At least that's the way it works for me.

00:44:36.877 --> 00:44:42.587
Rupert Isaacson: Do you feel that,
because you do have trouble,  processing,

00:44:42.647 --> 00:44:48.017
at least processing quickly, the
multifarious,  nuances of the human

00:44:48.017 --> 00:44:54.927
facial emotional thing that it then
makes it easier for you to look at

00:44:54.937 --> 00:44:57.917
the emotional patterns in horses
because they're not expressing it

00:44:57.967 --> 00:44:59.707
so much through the face like we do.

00:44:59.717 --> 00:45:02.217
It's not that they're not expressing
it through the face, of course

00:45:02.217 --> 00:45:05.947
they are to some degree, but not
to the insane degree that we do.

00:45:06.457 --> 00:45:09.057
Do you think that that makes it easier
for you to observe the patterns?

00:45:12.317 --> 00:45:14.387
Dr. Steven Peters: You
know, that's a good question.

00:45:14.407 --> 00:45:19.137
And, and, you know, some of this
isn't even science related because

00:45:19.147 --> 00:45:21.077
I don't know if I can articulate.

00:45:21.752 --> 00:45:26.712
necessarily the, the communication
so much you'd have to see it and say,

00:45:26.712 --> 00:45:31.132
okay, I see Steve with his horses
and I, I have an idea of what, how

00:45:31.132 --> 00:45:35.432
they're communicating with, with each
other because of how they're reacting.

00:45:36.922 --> 00:45:41.752
I'll give you an example is that,  I
insisted when I was seeing patients

00:45:42.102 --> 00:45:45.082
of going out into the waiting
room and getting the patient.

00:45:45.212 --> 00:45:50.012
So they're not aware that they're
being, you know, assessed at that time.

00:45:50.012 --> 00:45:52.022
So their, their guard
is down a little bit.

00:45:52.637 --> 00:45:57.797
And that I'd watch and they would stand up
maybe slowly, maybe shuffle a little bit.

00:45:58.107 --> 00:45:59.847
Maybe they'd have reduced eye blink.

00:46:00.667 --> 00:46:04.947
I'd almost have that patient diagnosed
before I ever reached the exam room.

00:46:05.937 --> 00:46:09.267
And it was almost a snapshot.

00:46:09.662 --> 00:46:13.602
Of understanding, but I didn't get
that in our interaction with looking,

00:46:13.622 --> 00:46:16.182
you know,  recognizing in their face.

00:46:16.182 --> 00:46:21.272
It was more like a whole pattern
that came at me out at once.

00:46:21.612 --> 00:46:26.052
And so it, it was just, it was an
understanding that was immediate.

00:46:28.012 --> 00:46:31.522
And with the horse, I don't know
that I can point out, oh, it's,

00:46:31.792 --> 00:46:33.372
you know, it's a thrashing tail.

00:46:33.372 --> 00:46:34.792
It's the head up above the withers.

00:46:35.222 --> 00:46:41.162
It's more just an immediate snapshot that.

00:46:42.952 --> 00:46:46.962
And you get a comfort level when you
know you're accurate when you know

00:46:46.962 --> 00:46:52.602
that the horse knows, and you know
that you understand that that horse.

00:46:54.582 --> 00:46:59.742
It's almost immediate but indescribable
if you're going to try to for me

00:46:59.762 --> 00:47:04.702
to try to break it down into into
science so I don't talk a lot about

00:47:05.062 --> 00:47:10.992
training the horse necessarily other
than just setting up the best optimum

00:47:10.992 --> 00:47:12.912
environment for brain to work.

00:47:12.912 --> 00:47:12.977
Thank you.

00:47:13.447 --> 00:47:18.427
And, and then I understand
that my autistic brain is, is

00:47:18.447 --> 00:47:20.937
different than most neurotypical.

00:47:20.977 --> 00:47:28.597
So I have to be careful that my esoteric
experiences aren't,  so much different

00:47:28.597 --> 00:47:32.557
than my audiences that they don't quite
grasp what I'm trying to get across.

00:47:34.267 --> 00:47:36.557
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think
that,  people that are running,

00:47:36.657 --> 00:47:40.557
therapeutic writing programs,  who
obviously are going to have quite a

00:47:40.557 --> 00:47:42.167
lot of neurodivergent people there?

00:47:42.907 --> 00:47:44.387
And a lot of people with autism.

00:47:45.137 --> 00:47:54.287
is there perhaps a, an untapped,  talent
pool among these autists, particularly

00:47:54.287 --> 00:47:59.727
as they reach adulthood, if they spend
enough time with the horses to come in as

00:48:00.197 --> 00:48:06.017
the trainers and maintainers of the horses
that are doing this job, because the

00:48:06.427 --> 00:48:11.697
neurotypical people that are running these
programs could then benefit from this.

00:48:12.462 --> 00:48:16.952
good pattern recognition that a
lot of these autistic people, once

00:48:16.952 --> 00:48:22.112
they've got good familiarity with
the horse could share with them and

00:48:22.112 --> 00:48:26.912
then bring them in less as clients
and more as part of the team.

00:48:28.092 --> 00:48:28.402
Is that

00:48:28.402 --> 00:48:32.812
Dr. Steven Peters: something that's,
that's a very interesting idea.

00:48:33.332 --> 00:48:33.782
Yeah.

00:48:33.862 --> 00:48:40.942
And, you know, we would be giving credit
for, for something versus having it be

00:48:40.992 --> 00:48:47.952
unexplained and then treating the person
as if that talent wasn't worthwhile.

00:48:48.402 --> 00:48:56.692
But, you know, putting that to use, I
look at things sometimes neurochemically

00:48:57.572 --> 00:49:01.232
and you and I've had this discussion
kind of,  you know, we've touched on this

00:49:01.252 --> 00:49:07.147
before, but there are some scientists
that, that wonder whether Horses over

00:49:07.167 --> 00:49:12.337
time haven't developed more serotonin
receptors to allow them to be more

00:49:12.347 --> 00:49:19.247
emotionally balanced so they can interact
with us,  and survive in our environment.

00:49:19.727 --> 00:49:28.247
And so, I don't know that, that the
autistic person's interaction with a horse

00:49:28.597 --> 00:49:39.977
isn't neurochemically setting the, their
situation where they're actually on a

00:49:40.097 --> 00:49:46.537
cellular level, actually regulating each
other's serotonin receptors, which creates

00:49:46.537 --> 00:49:49.067
an emotional balance between both animals.

00:49:51.107 --> 00:49:58.347
Rupert Isaacson: That certainly seems to
be what in layman's terms would be, the

00:49:58.347 --> 00:50:00.187
horse just seems to like them, right?

00:50:00.277 --> 00:50:01.527
You know, you often observe this.

00:50:03.847 --> 00:50:08.267
And for many of us, well,
that's a good enough thing.

00:50:09.057 --> 00:50:12.887
But again, getting back to where we were
before with dendrites and axons,  it's

00:50:12.887 --> 00:50:14.317
really good to know why things work.

00:50:14.947 --> 00:50:16.937
So what you just touched on there.

00:50:16.977 --> 00:50:23.817
So let's say for example, if domesticated
mammals in general, probably,  have

00:50:24.437 --> 00:50:30.267
learned to evolve their way into better
serotonin,  production so that they

00:50:30.267 --> 00:50:32.207
can deal with these funky monkeys that.

00:50:32.922 --> 00:50:35.082
have life or death
power over them, i e us.

00:50:35.882 --> 00:50:44.092
and therefore, if the funky monkeys
that then come into their purview, who

00:50:44.792 --> 00:50:50.322
seem more able to observe and interact
with their patterns in a way that makes

00:50:50.322 --> 00:50:54.612
sense to that animal and therefore
brings 'em to better point of safety,

00:50:54.882 --> 00:51:01.452
if it's coming down to co-regulation
of each other's,  serotonin again, I

00:51:01.457 --> 00:51:03.912
think what's wonderful about that is.

00:51:04.782 --> 00:51:08.742
It allows one to say, well, and
perhaps it works because of this.

00:51:10.162 --> 00:51:12.642
It's not just that the horse
irrationally likes them.

00:51:13.762 --> 00:51:16.392
It's got this neurochemical component.

00:51:16.622 --> 00:51:19.762
So therefore, once again, we can
regulate, we can replicate it.

00:51:20.382 --> 00:51:24.342
this is something one could perhaps
begin to develop or explore in programs.

00:51:24.602 --> 00:51:26.792
Because one of the things I'm
very interested in is, is, is

00:51:26.792 --> 00:51:28.352
getting away from the paradigm of.

00:51:28.992 --> 00:51:33.392
I'm the service provider and you're the
service user, you know, I'm the therapist

00:51:33.392 --> 00:51:35.492
in your that it's never like that.

00:51:35.492 --> 00:51:36.742
We know it's never like that.

00:51:37.052 --> 00:51:39.312
you know, I learned more about
horses through working with my

00:51:39.312 --> 00:51:42.612
autistic son than I ever did.

00:51:43.212 --> 00:51:48.802
before I started working with him, he
opened up vast horizons of new knowledge.

00:51:49.597 --> 00:51:53.597
For me, also about the brain, blah, blah,
blah, blah, complete two way street.

00:51:53.607 --> 00:51:59.207
He completely made me understand about
oxytocin and BDNF and other things,

00:51:59.207 --> 00:52:00.457
which I'd like to get into in a minute.

00:52:01.527 --> 00:52:07.447
I do feel that we have a paradigm
within mental health that is exactly

00:52:07.447 --> 00:52:10.947
the same as our paradigm that you
were talking about with some of the

00:52:10.947 --> 00:52:14.347
less good things of horse training,
which is basically a power dynamic.

00:52:15.167 --> 00:52:22.157
And although that's understandable and
somewhat natural to our species, it

00:52:22.157 --> 00:52:23.967
behoves us to try to get beyond it.

00:52:24.882 --> 00:52:35.502
When you bring, when you make those,
neurochemical, succinct, easily repeatable

00:52:36.642 --> 00:52:45.282
phrases like, could it be that their
neuro, that their serotonin levels are co

00:52:45.282 --> 00:52:50.772
regulating for this reason, and that this
population of human and this population

00:52:50.772 --> 00:52:52.862
of horse have a good chemistry this way.

00:52:53.882 --> 00:52:55.852
People can understand
that and it's useful.

00:52:57.192 --> 00:53:00.602
Dr. Steven Peters: You know, there's
a scientist, Jeffrey Gray at King's

00:53:00.602 --> 00:53:05.842
College in London, and he was looking
at activation of the amygdala.

00:53:05.862 --> 00:53:09.852
And that's a structure in the brain
that we've associated with fear.

00:53:10.167 --> 00:53:13.257
And remember earlier I talked
about having to feel safe.

00:53:13.347 --> 00:53:15.307
The horse constantly asking, am I safe?

00:53:15.567 --> 00:53:16.737
And you really can't learn.

00:53:16.737 --> 00:53:21.007
Even humans, if you think you're going
to be beaten up by a gang member after

00:53:21.007 --> 00:53:25.667
class, then you certainly can't be
focusing on your trigonometry homework.

00:53:27.617 --> 00:53:33.947
So what he found was that those
mammals that had lower serotonin

00:53:33.977 --> 00:53:38.472
levels had a more active,  amygdala.

00:53:39.072 --> 00:53:44.552
And those mammals with higher levels
of serotonin had a less active, it

00:53:44.562 --> 00:53:47.932
dampened the activation of the amygdala.

00:53:48.292 --> 00:53:55.902
So it made us, it, it plays a chemical
role in, in dampening down fear, thus

00:53:55.902 --> 00:53:59.802
allowing interaction between two.

00:54:00.062 --> 00:54:02.912
And this is more complicated
than, than we look.

00:54:02.912 --> 00:54:09.942
This is sort of simplified, but if
you think about it, It's always a

00:54:09.942 --> 00:54:13.302
neurochemical cocktail of some kind.

00:54:13.302 --> 00:54:14.792
That's how Martin Black and I look at it.

00:54:14.792 --> 00:54:18.112
And he says, you know, you're, you're
actually a bartender when you're

00:54:18.112 --> 00:54:22.172
dealing with these horses, because if
you have too much norepinephrine, then

00:54:22.172 --> 00:54:27.022
they can't get the norepinephrine will
have them too sympathetically aroused.

00:54:27.022 --> 00:54:29.512
So they can't become curious, right?

00:54:29.682 --> 00:54:33.642
If you have too much oxytocin,
then they're not going to

00:54:33.712 --> 00:54:35.572
want to be away from the herd.

00:54:36.052 --> 00:54:40.282
because they're going to want to
feel that huge dose of oxytocin

00:54:40.282 --> 00:54:42.672
where they feel safe and bonded.

00:54:43.002 --> 00:54:46.802
So you have to almost
introduce a new chemical.

00:54:46.802 --> 00:54:51.642
Well, how about let's go out for
this trail ride and I'll give you

00:54:51.642 --> 00:54:55.702
some problems to solve and you'll get
some big dopamine hits along the way.

00:54:56.292 --> 00:55:01.392
which will then, you know, counteract
that withdrawal symptom of oxytocin.

00:55:01.692 --> 00:55:04.502
So it's always this neurochemical balance.

00:55:04.882 --> 00:55:10.932
And if we can find those ways to,
to,  work with that system and

00:55:10.932 --> 00:55:14.302
mix the best cocktails, then we're
going to have the best outcomes.

00:55:14.772 --> 00:55:16.252
Rupert Isaacson: I 100% agree.

00:55:16.352 --> 00:55:22.927
so for example, when we were trying
to understand why First, my son

00:55:22.927 --> 00:55:26.887
and then other kids were becoming
verbal and communicative,  who

00:55:26.887 --> 00:55:30.787
were, who were severely autistic and
severely uncommunicative on horses

00:55:30.797 --> 00:55:33.437
in collection, in soft collection.

00:55:34.047 --> 00:55:36.047
again and again and again
and again and again.

00:55:36.507 --> 00:55:40.157
a certain number of neuroscientists
pointed out an oxytocin connection there

00:55:40.617 --> 00:55:46.027
and also oxytocin,  helping with bringing
down the amygdala response, the fight,

00:55:46.027 --> 00:55:47.957
flight, freeze response and the cortisol.

00:55:49.702 --> 00:55:52.582
stress hormone blocking the intellect.

00:55:52.602 --> 00:55:53.062
Okay.

00:55:53.432 --> 00:56:01.312
And then,  we had it explained to us that
although most,  hormones are producing

00:56:01.312 --> 00:56:05.942
relatively localized areas of the body,
oxytocin, the communication hormone, as

00:56:05.942 --> 00:56:09.862
well as the pleasure hormone get will be
produced in your gut in all your other

00:56:09.862 --> 00:56:13.722
organs as well, make its way up to the
pituitary gland and sing like a choir.

00:56:14.192 --> 00:56:17.092
and get this even bigger
effect because it,  for various

00:56:17.092 --> 00:56:18.322
reasons, our bodies want it.

00:56:18.772 --> 00:56:22.752
but that at the same time, because of
this activation of the gut through the

00:56:22.752 --> 00:56:24.312
hip rocking, you're getting serotonin.

00:56:24.732 --> 00:56:27.062
And then at the, at the same
time, you're getting dopamine as

00:56:27.062 --> 00:56:30.052
you say, because there's, you're
now problem solving as you go.

00:56:30.102 --> 00:56:33.512
Even if the problem solving is
simply finding your balance,  let

00:56:33.522 --> 00:56:35.902
alone actually,  an activity.

00:56:36.162 --> 00:56:39.102
And then of course there's
endorphins kicking in.

00:56:39.172 --> 00:56:41.102
And so, yes, I totally agree with you.

00:56:44.392 --> 00:56:47.842
with horses now and when we're working
with people and I'm not just talking

00:56:47.842 --> 00:56:53.412
autistic people with myself, I'm always
looking exactly as you say, like a

00:56:53.412 --> 00:56:59.352
bartender to, to dose myself on these,
neurochemicals, which I know my body will

00:56:59.372 --> 00:57:04.222
produce or will be produced in the horse's
body or will be produced in, in the, in

00:57:04.222 --> 00:57:06.242
the,  client's body or the kid's body.

00:57:06.482 --> 00:57:09.002
You, however, mentioned a word.

00:57:10.097 --> 00:57:10.847
That I don't know.

00:57:10.847 --> 00:57:12.197
So I'm gonna ask you to repeat it.

00:57:12.577 --> 00:57:13.507
Neuro

00:57:16.357 --> 00:57:17.887
Dr. Steven Peters: Oh, no, epinephrine.

00:57:18.407 --> 00:57:21.017
Rupert Isaacson: Let's, let's,
let's just spell that out for me,

00:57:21.017 --> 00:57:22.307
cause I'm, I'm writing it down.

00:57:22.847 --> 00:57:23.237
Down.

00:57:23.387 --> 00:57:24.377
N o r

00:57:24.497 --> 00:57:27.847
Dr. Steven Peters: n o r e P i N

00:57:28.397 --> 00:57:30.517
Rupert Isaacson: e P i N.

00:57:32.647 --> 00:57:33.487
Dr. Steven Peters: Let me write it down.

00:57:34.057 --> 00:57:39.027
No, N oei.

00:57:39.067 --> 00:57:39.847
N e

00:57:40.237 --> 00:57:40.667
Rupert Isaacson: E p.

00:57:41.317 --> 00:57:42.937
I N E

00:57:44.357 --> 00:57:48.617
Dr. Steven Peters: t h t h e r I n.

00:57:49.557 --> 00:57:50.157
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

00:57:50.217 --> 00:57:51.657
That's a, that's a doozy.

00:57:51.657 --> 00:57:53.637
That sounds like a, a challenge.

00:57:53.642 --> 00:57:54.627
Thailand or something.

00:57:55.917 --> 00:57:56.187
Wow.

00:58:00.127 --> 00:58:00.667
Nof.

00:58:00.757 --> 00:58:01.777
Norepinephrine.

00:58:02.187 --> 00:58:04.437
Norepinephrine nor, no, no.

00:58:04.437 --> 00:58:05.447
Pin, no.

00:58:05.447 --> 00:58:06.767
I think, I think I've
written it down wrong.

00:58:06.767 --> 00:58:07.247
Can you do it?

00:58:08.017 --> 00:58:08.347
Sorry.

00:58:08.397 --> 00:58:11.897
my listeners, but please bear with us
because this, this is something we need.

00:58:12.107 --> 00:58:13.967
Can, can you spell it
out for me again please?

00:58:14.652 --> 00:58:15.032
Yeah.

00:58:15.082 --> 00:58:15.442
Dr. Steven Peters: N O.

00:58:15.462 --> 00:58:15.932
R.

00:58:16.282 --> 00:58:16.552
N.

00:58:16.592 --> 00:58:16.732
O.

00:58:16.862 --> 00:58:16.982
R.

00:58:17.952 --> 00:58:18.042
E.

00:58:18.042 --> 00:58:18.372
P.

00:58:18.402 --> 00:58:18.912
I.

00:58:19.362 --> 00:58:19.502
Rupert Isaacson: P.

00:58:19.502 --> 00:58:19.862
I.

00:58:20.592 --> 00:58:20.862
P.

00:58:20.862 --> 00:58:21.132
H.

00:58:21.772 --> 00:58:21.932
Dr. Steven Peters: P.

00:58:21.932 --> 00:58:22.342
H.

00:58:25.092 --> 00:58:25.362
E.

00:58:25.392 --> 00:58:25.742
R.

00:58:25.792 --> 00:58:26.312
I.

00:58:26.372 --> 00:58:26.662
N.

00:58:26.692 --> 00:58:26.982
E.

00:58:27.362 --> 00:58:27.532
E.

00:58:27.532 --> 00:58:27.752
R.

00:58:27.772 --> 00:58:27.972
I.

00:58:27.972 --> 00:58:28.212
N.

00:58:28.222 --> 00:58:28.482
E.

00:58:29.022 --> 00:58:30.192
Nora.

00:58:30.872 --> 00:58:32.002
Nora Epinephrine.

00:58:32.462 --> 00:58:34.342
Rupert Isaacson: Nora Epinephrine.

00:58:35.132 --> 00:58:35.562
Yeah.

00:58:35.942 --> 00:58:36.372
Okay.

00:58:36.592 --> 00:58:37.342
Talk to us about

00:58:37.342 --> 00:58:37.532
Dr. Steven Peters: that.

00:58:37.532 --> 00:58:37.972
What is that?

00:58:38.782 --> 00:58:42.442
Yeah, that plays a major role
in the, in the nervous system.

00:58:42.882 --> 00:58:47.242
We need a small amount of Nora
Epinephrine to alert,  What

00:58:47.242 --> 00:58:49.582
it'll do, it sensitizes neurons.

00:58:50.692 --> 00:58:52.492
It sensitizes the amygdala.

00:58:52.702 --> 00:58:53.722
It's a sensitizer.

00:58:54.662 --> 00:58:55.352
So if we have a

00:58:55.352 --> 00:58:56.824
Rupert Isaacson: small amount
mean, what does that mean?

00:58:56.824 --> 00:58:57.092
What does that mean?

00:58:57.097 --> 00:58:58.012
We don't even know what that means.

00:58:58.852 --> 00:59:01.792
Dr. Steven Peters: What it means
it makes neurons more active.

00:59:02.092 --> 00:59:02.362
Okay.

00:59:04.032 --> 00:59:08.202
And turbo boost fuel need a
small amount of norepinephrine

00:59:08.582 --> 00:59:10.082
so that I can pay attention.

00:59:10.292 --> 00:59:12.092
So my brain can say,
Hey, this is important.

00:59:12.092 --> 00:59:13.262
I better focus on this.

00:59:13.982 --> 00:59:15.902
But if I get too much.

00:59:16.972 --> 00:59:17.402
Right.

00:59:17.622 --> 00:59:23.442
Then it's going to turn into, to
cortisol and run that entire circuitry.

00:59:24.072 --> 00:59:24.102
Will

00:59:24.322 --> 00:59:27.712
Rupert Isaacson: it cortisol or
could it equally turn into something

00:59:27.722 --> 00:59:29.012
better, something more pleasurable?

00:59:29.162 --> 00:59:30.542
Or will it always go to...

00:59:30.642 --> 00:59:31.192
If it's at

00:59:31.202 --> 00:59:34.442
Dr. Steven Peters: low levels, it can
turn into something more pleasurable.

00:59:34.452 --> 00:59:38.632
So let's say I have a low level of
norepinephrine that's allowing me to

00:59:38.632 --> 00:59:40.222
pay attention to what you're telling me.

00:59:40.757 --> 00:59:46.107
You tell me something then that is so
interesting, it creates a dopamine hit

00:59:46.107 --> 00:59:50.717
on my brain and actually takes a couple
of neurons and, and fastens them together

00:59:51.507 --> 00:59:54.357
to broaden my, my neural network.

00:59:54.667 --> 00:59:56.597
And I get a dopamine
hit and it feels good.

00:59:56.917 --> 01:00:02.147
And the norepinephrine helped me focus
my attention long enough, because your

01:00:02.157 --> 01:00:05.707
brain is only made up of what you've
ever paid attention to in your life.

01:00:07.432 --> 01:00:09.292
That's why your brain is
so different than mine.

01:00:09.312 --> 01:00:13.002
It's what you focused on, paid
attention and your norepinephrine

01:00:13.012 --> 01:00:14.172
helped you to do that.

01:00:14.402 --> 01:00:18.742
However, if I had too much
norepinephrine in my system, it

01:00:18.752 --> 01:00:22.622
would sensitize the amygdala and
I'd be worried and I'd be stressed.

01:00:23.657 --> 01:00:30.977
And I would, I would come apart
and under that, that constant high

01:00:31.007 --> 01:00:34.857
dose of norepinephrine, actually
it would shrink the window of

01:00:35.077 --> 01:00:36.667
what I would be able to tolerate.

01:00:37.307 --> 01:00:42.767
And so my nervous system would actually
reset and I'd be hyper alert, worried

01:00:42.767 --> 01:00:48.457
all the time, anxious, filled with
anxiety and flooded with norepinephrine.

01:00:48.457 --> 01:00:49.147
What

01:00:50.027 --> 01:00:52.797
Rupert Isaacson: what creates and
where, what creates norepinephrine

01:00:52.797 --> 01:00:53.847
and where is it created in the

01:00:53.847 --> 01:00:54.187
Dr. Steven Peters: body?

01:00:54.187 --> 01:00:54.202
Thank you.

01:00:55.562 --> 01:00:58.112
norepinephrine is created
in an area called the locus

01:00:58.182 --> 01:01:00.282
coeruleus in the brainstem.

01:01:01.412 --> 01:01:04.262
The locus coeruleus,
it's Latin for blue area.

01:01:04.752 --> 01:01:08.512
because that's what it looked like when
they died it and, and, and looked at it.

01:01:08.882 --> 01:01:14.032
So I need some, but it quickly gets
to the amygdala, it quickly gets to

01:01:14.032 --> 01:01:18.632
the hippocampus, and the hippocampus
is a structure related to memory.

01:01:18.972 --> 01:01:21.212
So I don't want to necessarily
be sensitizing the hippocampus.

01:01:22.997 --> 01:01:26.687
Amygdala and the hippocampus
at the same time, because then

01:01:26.687 --> 01:01:28.457
I'm creating a fear memory.

01:01:28.457 --> 01:01:33.467
I'm creating a trauma, even a small
trauma, but a trauma nonetheless.

01:01:36.747 --> 01:01:41.237
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so how do
we, how do we what, what causes the

01:01:41.237 --> 01:01:43.737
norepinephrine to be,  produced?

01:01:43.887 --> 01:01:46.417
Like is, is it movement
based, sympathetic arousal.

01:01:47.382 --> 01:01:51.412
Yeah, but arousal, there's many,
there's so many forms of arousal and

01:01:52.892 --> 01:01:57.032
epinephrine before the arousal or is the
arousal the cause of the norepinephrine?

01:01:58.032 --> 01:02:00.422
Dr. Steven Peters: Let's say I'm
constantly in my system going to

01:02:00.432 --> 01:02:04.492
have some degree of norepinephrine
unless I must sleep on my feet.

01:02:04.892 --> 01:02:11.252
So I get my horse for example, and I
take them out to teach them something.

01:02:11.572 --> 01:02:12.872
And I noticed that.

01:02:13.392 --> 01:02:17.002
their head starts to come up above
the withers, that their eyes get wide.

01:02:17.322 --> 01:02:20.102
So I say, you know what, we're
reaching a point where we're getting

01:02:20.132 --> 01:02:21.622
too much norepinephrine here.

01:02:21.782 --> 01:02:23.882
I'm going to let you
reset your nervous system.

01:02:24.312 --> 01:02:29.652
So I step back, I pause, the horse's
head comes down, they start to lick

01:02:29.652 --> 01:02:33.582
and chew, they start to feel more
comfortable, then we re approach that.

01:02:33.852 --> 01:02:37.652
And each time we do that, we
widen that window of tolerance so

01:02:37.672 --> 01:02:44.147
norepinephrine on board, It's not
overwhelming the system, but let's

01:02:44.147 --> 01:02:46.047
say I don't answer that question.

01:02:46.337 --> 01:02:48.137
My horse's head comes above the withers.

01:02:48.187 --> 01:02:49.657
The eyes get a little wide.

01:02:50.112 --> 01:02:54.192
I keep pressuring my horse,
their head now comes way up.

01:02:54.552 --> 01:02:56.702
I see these tendons tighten in their jaw.

01:02:57.032 --> 01:02:58.982
They start to look for a way to escape.

01:02:59.032 --> 01:03:01.732
So they're already starting
to think fight or flight.

01:03:01.992 --> 01:03:04.582
And if I keep pressuring the horse,
trying to teach them something in

01:03:04.582 --> 01:03:08.492
that state, they're now flooded
with too much norepinephrine.

01:03:08.662 --> 01:03:10.502
I know it's starting
to go to the amygdala.

01:03:10.832 --> 01:03:15.152
And I know that the next response,
if they're more threatened is, is a

01:03:15.452 --> 01:03:17.912
default to fight or flight cortisol.

01:03:18.042 --> 01:03:24.032
So it's an art of learning how to
set and reset the nervous system

01:03:24.032 --> 01:03:28.002
enough times so that the horse knows
that they can come down the other

01:03:28.002 --> 01:03:31.982
side, find that pause and relax.

01:03:32.472 --> 01:03:33.692
before the next.

01:03:33.692 --> 01:03:34.502
It's almost like you.

01:03:34.502 --> 01:03:39.492
If you were on a diving board, if I let
you walk out there and then walk back,

01:03:39.492 --> 01:03:41.222
you have an internal locus of control.

01:03:41.362 --> 01:03:44.402
You sit on the edge of the diving
board, dangle your feet over.

01:03:45.077 --> 01:03:48.587
And then you sit on the board
and fall into the pool and then

01:03:48.587 --> 01:03:50.887
eventually dive off pretty soon.

01:03:50.977 --> 01:03:51.877
You're doing great.

01:03:52.277 --> 01:03:54.577
And your window of
tolerance is pretty wide.

01:03:54.807 --> 01:03:57.597
So you're, you're feeling
really comfortable with that.

01:03:57.637 --> 01:04:02.117
You had some norepinephrine aboard that
made you, well, I better pay attention.

01:04:02.117 --> 01:04:03.447
I don't want to fall off the board.

01:04:03.747 --> 01:04:04.597
I better pay attention.

01:04:04.597 --> 01:04:08.277
I don't want to just drop off the edge of
the board and suck up a bunch of water.

01:04:09.172 --> 01:04:14.102
But what if I stood behind you and I kept
pushing you and you start to dig your

01:04:14.102 --> 01:04:18.702
feet in now you're so sympathetically
aroused you're filled with norepinephrine

01:04:19.122 --> 01:04:22.712
and then let's say I throw you in and
you take in a bunch of water in your

01:04:22.712 --> 01:04:24.542
lungs and you get up and you're coughing.

01:04:25.102 --> 01:04:29.382
Now, that whole situation has
become traumatized so that

01:04:29.712 --> 01:04:32.952
standing on that diving board is a
different experience the next day.

01:04:33.402 --> 01:04:37.112
based on neurochemically what I've done
to you because of what neurochemicals

01:04:37.732 --> 01:04:40.052
were at what level of arousal.

01:04:40.782 --> 01:04:41.282
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:04:41.292 --> 01:04:45.362
So basically it sounds like you've just
explained from a neuroscientist point of

01:04:45.362 --> 01:04:50.742
view, the concept of less is more and the
concept of softly, softly catchy monkey.

01:04:51.712 --> 01:04:58.102
And although those are common sense
things, because we observed that if

01:04:58.242 --> 01:05:00.742
you don't do them, things go wrong.

01:05:01.892 --> 01:05:05.592
Again, it's really
helpful to be able to say.

01:05:06.977 --> 01:05:12.387
Look, the reason why you don't want
to push for that extra step in the

01:05:12.387 --> 01:05:17.357
training, or the reason why you want
to now leave the horse alone a little

01:05:17.357 --> 01:05:21.767
bit, or the reason why you want to
leave that kid alone a little bit now.

01:05:22.167 --> 01:05:27.797
Or the reason why you want to let
them come to a concept as gradually as

01:05:27.817 --> 01:05:32.967
possible is that you're avoiding this
neuropinephrine thing, which they need

01:05:33.077 --> 01:05:36.647
just enough of to pay attention and learn.

01:05:36.817 --> 01:05:40.737
But if we push it over the edge,
we're going to fuck up everything

01:05:40.737 --> 01:05:43.887
we're trying to learn because
cortisol is going to come in and

01:05:43.887 --> 01:05:46.347
just stomp on it like a big old boot.

01:05:46.597 --> 01:05:48.967
And then we'll have to start all
over again from the beginning.

01:05:49.757 --> 01:05:50.277
This.

01:05:50.617 --> 01:05:56.737
People can get because I think I think
what's tricky is that yeah Less is more

01:05:56.747 --> 01:06:00.387
and softly softly catchy monkey and
go gradually and all of these things.

01:06:00.457 --> 01:06:06.237
Yes, they're common sense however, there
are only common sense to people who have

01:06:06.237 --> 01:06:11.527
a sort of innate personality that way and
Others who don't who are very impatient.

01:06:11.847 --> 01:06:14.897
I've been very impatient in
my younger life you come to it

01:06:15.507 --> 01:06:17.067
by making a bunch of mistakes.

01:06:18.127 --> 01:06:22.497
However, if we're trying to help
people not to have to make quite the

01:06:22.497 --> 01:06:28.077
same number of mistakes that I made,
say, it's useful to have these terms.

01:06:28.937 --> 01:06:30.647
because, because they're understandable.

01:06:30.657 --> 01:06:32.107
So, norepinephrofen.

01:06:32.877 --> 01:06:33.407
Dr. Steven Peters: Norepinephrine.

01:06:33.507 --> 01:06:34.617
Rupert Isaacson: Norepinephrine.

01:06:36.217 --> 01:06:37.357
Let's say it three times.

01:06:37.357 --> 01:06:37.667
Norepinephrine.

01:06:37.667 --> 01:06:39.477
Norepinephrine.

01:06:39.557 --> 01:06:40.747
Norepinephrine.

01:06:40.767 --> 01:06:41.487
Now it's in my brain.

01:06:41.787 --> 01:06:42.317
Norepinephrine.

01:06:42.317 --> 01:06:42.707
You got it.

01:06:43.187 --> 01:06:45.567
Dr. Steven Peters: and when we're done,
go look it up and then you'll see the

01:06:45.567 --> 01:06:47.377
difference between pad and adrenaline.

01:06:47.557 --> 01:06:50.627
It's one to put in your
toolbox and, and, and be

01:06:50.627 --> 01:06:51.057
Rupert Isaacson: aware of.

01:06:51.207 --> 01:06:55.157
Is norepinephrine a, a,
a hormone or is it a...

01:06:55.747 --> 01:06:59.187
Dr. Steven Peters: Yes, it's a hormone
and a neurotransmitter as many of these

01:06:59.187 --> 01:06:59.497
Rupert Isaacson: are.

01:06:59.837 --> 01:07:02.327
So therefore it's also a
protein, would that be correct?

01:07:02.977 --> 01:07:03.467
Yeah.

01:07:04.207 --> 01:07:05.407
Okay, okay.

01:07:06.037 --> 01:07:06.437
And.

01:07:07.057 --> 01:07:11.437
In small doses good and in big
doses not so good basically, right

01:07:11.917 --> 01:07:14.467
Dr. Steven Peters: if i'm
sensitizing Your brain, I don't

01:07:14.467 --> 01:07:16.917
want to hypersensitize you right?

01:07:17.862 --> 01:07:21.752
And it's interesting that you brought
up if you, if you screw it up, you

01:07:21.752 --> 01:07:23.132
have to go back to the beginning.

01:07:23.242 --> 01:07:23.442
Yeah.

01:07:23.742 --> 01:07:26.972
If you screw it up, you can't
get back to the beginning.

01:07:26.972 --> 01:07:31.782
You were at before, you know,
you're actually two steps behind

01:07:31.882 --> 01:07:33.632
the beginning when you come back

01:07:33.632 --> 01:07:33.912
Rupert Isaacson: at it.

01:07:34.052 --> 01:07:34.842
You've created trauma.

01:07:35.112 --> 01:07:40.862
I mean, this, I, I saw so often in,  the
worst kind of behavioral,  approaches

01:07:40.862 --> 01:07:44.182
with autistic kids when my son was
very young and these kids were just.

01:07:44.867 --> 01:07:48.717
Would get to a point where they were
trying to climb through the wall or

01:07:48.717 --> 01:07:52.807
climb through the door or climb over
the person  and you had exactly the

01:07:52.807 --> 01:07:56.857
same thing being said by the therapist
that people would say about horses

01:07:56.857 --> 01:07:58.167
See, they're being disrespectful.

01:07:58.177 --> 01:08:01.957
They're being this they're being that and
saying no, man, they're just terrified

01:08:02.607 --> 01:08:07.587
They're just terrified and I remember
thinking Wow as a horseman if I was in a

01:08:07.587 --> 01:08:11.732
rampen with a horse and they were trying
to climb out over the fucking fence to get

01:08:11.772 --> 01:08:16.102
out when I'm trying to do something, then
presumably I should change something about

01:08:16.102 --> 01:08:18.272
what I'm doing or I'm going to get killed.

01:08:18.332 --> 01:08:19.042
Forget the horse.

01:08:19.142 --> 01:08:19.902
I'm going to get killed.

01:08:20.452 --> 01:08:22.882
but of course, because it's only
a child and we're adults and we

01:08:22.882 --> 01:08:26.362
can overall Children with our
greater physical strength and size.

01:08:26.852 --> 01:08:29.792
This doesn't come into the
picture until the child gets big

01:08:29.792 --> 01:08:32.362
enough to to physically hurt you.

01:08:32.362 --> 01:08:36.692
And then, of course, they resort to
drugs to,  Control that behavior.

01:08:36.982 --> 01:08:41.202
And so it seems to me that the
problem is always about the idea of

01:08:41.202 --> 01:08:42.552
trying to control behavior, right?

01:08:43.252 --> 01:08:43.732
Dr. Steven Peters: Exactly.

01:08:44.082 --> 01:08:48.112
We want to be in charge of this
because we feel uncomfortable.

01:08:48.212 --> 01:08:49.572
It's getting out of control.

01:08:49.712 --> 01:08:50.892
So I'm going to control.

01:08:51.517 --> 01:08:54.967
But one of the most stressful
things that you can do to a horse

01:08:54.967 --> 01:08:56.977
is restrain them confinement.

01:08:57.007 --> 01:09:01.517
If you look at, at when most of
the wrecks occur, it's that yank

01:09:01.517 --> 01:09:03.417
around, I'm clamped onto the horse.

01:09:03.417 --> 01:09:05.717
I'm, you know, I'm forcing the horse.

01:09:05.727 --> 01:09:10.477
So restraint actually increases
sympathetic arousal instead of

01:09:10.487 --> 01:09:12.237
brings it back, back down again.

01:09:13.387 --> 01:09:18.737
I think one of the things most
missing because we're egotistical,

01:09:18.737 --> 01:09:20.327
we want to make things happen.

01:09:20.782 --> 01:09:27.562
Is there that we don't use the pause
enough and allowing the nervous system

01:09:27.602 --> 01:09:30.942
to reset the brain is fantastic.

01:09:30.992 --> 01:09:32.952
It can replay things that happen.

01:09:32.952 --> 01:09:35.982
Well, and make those neuronal connections.

01:09:36.052 --> 01:09:40.332
All we can do is interrupt those
if we keep drilling and grinding

01:09:41.022 --> 01:09:45.122
away without allowing the brain
to assimilate those in a good way.

01:09:45.122 --> 01:09:48.662
And sometimes the greatest gift
to give our horse is space.

01:09:50.817 --> 01:09:51.547
Rupert Isaacson: 100%.

01:09:51.547 --> 01:09:55.947
You know, you're probably aware of the
legendary, , Portuguese, , horse trainer

01:09:55.947 --> 01:09:58.057
from the 20th century, Nuno Oliveira.

01:09:58.657 --> 01:10:02.917
And one of his great quotes was, , when
your horse has made a really good

01:10:02.927 --> 01:10:11.897
try dismount, don't end the session,
smoke a cigarette down to its butt,

01:10:13.087 --> 01:10:17.977
take all your attention away from
the horse and allow him to simply.

01:10:18.337 --> 01:10:23.457
Pause, then remount and go on.

01:10:23.477 --> 01:10:27.477
And I remember reading that
and as an autism dad go, well,

01:10:27.477 --> 01:10:28.597
that makes sense actually.

01:10:28.847 --> 01:10:31.467
So I started doing that and I don't smoke.

01:10:31.657 --> 01:10:34.327
So what I do is let's say
I'm training something.

01:10:34.347 --> 01:10:35.477
He was using the PF.

01:10:35.967 --> 01:10:40.067
, so something that's complex where the
horse has to give, you know, really a

01:10:40.067 --> 01:10:44.077
hundred percent attention and a hundred
percent buy in, , in order to pull

01:10:44.077 --> 01:10:46.087
everything in the brain body together.

01:10:46.707 --> 01:10:51.867
And, . So now, particularly when I'm
training anything complex like that, I

01:10:51.887 --> 01:10:55.447
look for, I feel for a try, a good try.

01:10:55.657 --> 01:10:57.847
And then I do exactly, I
dismount, but I don't smoke.

01:10:57.847 --> 01:10:58.927
So I do texts.

01:10:59.537 --> 01:11:03.217
I'll pull my phone out and I'll
look in a different direction, but I

01:11:03.227 --> 01:11:04.787
hang with the horse at his shoulder.

01:11:05.552 --> 01:11:08.542
And I might keep a hand on him or,
or, or scratch him or whatever.

01:11:08.542 --> 01:11:10.382
But basically my attention has gone away.

01:11:10.382 --> 01:11:14.012
And I answer a couple of emails and
actually my attention does go away because

01:11:14.012 --> 01:11:15.622
suddenly I do need to answer this email.

01:11:16.042 --> 01:11:18.422
And I, what I realized
is it works for me too.

01:11:19.362 --> 01:11:26.672
Gets me out of that neuro epiprofen
over aroused thing, because we know that

01:11:26.672 --> 01:11:30.752
we, when we train horses, we ourselves
as funky monkeys can get a little

01:11:30.752 --> 01:11:32.692
bit intense about the whole thing.

01:11:33.242 --> 01:11:34.792
And I think the same is true.

01:11:34.792 --> 01:11:35.892
Obviously, when we're working.

01:11:36.372 --> 01:11:43.602
As in, in a therapeutic environment,
we're so, for the best of reasons, wanting

01:11:43.602 --> 01:11:46.802
to get a good result and deliver that.

01:11:46.802 --> 01:11:52.162
Sometimes we can push, , and to be able
to put it in those terms, neuro ibuprofen,

01:11:52.882 --> 01:11:54.802
, and say, let's try and avoid that.

01:11:55.102 --> 01:11:56.692
Let's allow pauses.

01:11:57.902 --> 01:11:58.893
So again, when you go to

01:11:58.898 --> 01:12:01.452
Dr. Steven Peters: sleep that
night, there's a neurochemical

01:12:01.452 --> 01:12:03.332
acetylcholine your brain.

01:12:03.482 --> 01:12:03.962
How do you spell that?

01:12:06.472 --> 01:12:07.552
Boy, you're giving me some real.

01:12:08.637 --> 01:12:09.247
Rupert Isaacson: Acetylcholine.

01:12:10.407 --> 01:12:15.507
Acetylcholine was a waitress, I think, at
a diner that I used to go to in Virginia.

01:12:15.557 --> 01:12:15.707
Acetylcholine.

01:12:19.737 --> 01:12:20.027
Okay.

01:12:20.567 --> 01:12:20.787
Uh,

01:12:21.547 --> 01:12:30.097
Dr. Steven Peters: A C e A c
e t y t Y l t y l c h o l i n

01:12:30.127 --> 01:12:32.717
Rupert Isaacson: e c h o l i n E.

01:12:32.722 --> 01:12:33.827
I'm gonna read it back to you.

01:12:34.307 --> 01:12:43.277
A C e t y l c h o l i n E.

01:12:44.102 --> 01:12:44.942
That's it.

01:12:45.292 --> 01:12:45.642
Acetylcholine.

01:12:45.772 --> 01:12:47.002
Acetylcholine.

01:12:47.032 --> 01:12:47.482
Okay.

01:12:47.792 --> 01:12:48.792
Acetylcholine.

01:12:48.822 --> 01:12:50.722
Tell me about this acetylcholine thing.

01:12:50.802 --> 01:12:52.492
What's this acetylcholine thing?

01:12:55.002 --> 01:12:58.402
Dr. Steven Peters: You know, when you
learn something, your brain just doesn't,

01:12:59.102 --> 01:13:03.172
, just pop up neurons any old where, right?

01:13:03.787 --> 01:13:09.537
As you sleep, you, you'll prune
off and weekend synapses that

01:13:09.537 --> 01:13:12.697
aren't helpful to you as you, as
you get better at doing something.

01:13:13.217 --> 01:13:17.517
And the cetylcholine almost goes in
like a magic marker and a highlighter.

01:13:17.997 --> 01:13:19.677
We're going to make a connection here.

01:13:20.537 --> 01:13:22.267
The best connection would be here.

01:13:22.297 --> 01:13:24.567
The next best connection would be here.

01:13:24.817 --> 01:13:27.247
And then those neurons
go and connect that way.

01:13:27.607 --> 01:13:32.832
So, what happens is, If you recall,
when you first learned to ride a bicycle

01:13:32.842 --> 01:13:37.682
and the training wheels came off, you
would get reach a point of diminishing

01:13:37.682 --> 01:13:39.762
returns trying to ride that day.

01:13:40.042 --> 01:13:42.032
And you think I'm never
going to learn this.

01:13:42.212 --> 01:13:46.082
But then you went to sleep at
night and you had a pause and

01:13:46.082 --> 01:13:47.662
your brain got to replay this.

01:13:48.137 --> 01:13:52.347
And acetylcholine said, no, if you
would have hooked this to this, and

01:13:52.347 --> 01:13:56.137
you would have changed this, so your
neural networks actually form new

01:13:56.167 --> 01:14:01.247
connections, the next day, somehow,
magically, you've gotten better.

01:14:02.317 --> 01:14:06.427
And all we can do is interrupt that
process with the horse when they've

01:14:06.427 --> 01:14:08.957
gotten something and understand it.

01:14:09.657 --> 01:14:12.487
Our ego says, let's do it again,
let's do it again, let's do it again.

01:14:12.517 --> 01:14:13.457
Then they check out.

01:14:13.687 --> 01:14:15.977
And then, then we reach
diminishing returns.

01:14:15.977 --> 01:14:16.897
Now they do it worse.

01:14:17.222 --> 01:14:20.002
So we feel like we have to pundit, we
have to get after him even more to get

01:14:20.022 --> 01:14:22.442
back to where we were when you got it.

01:14:22.772 --> 01:14:25.512
That's the time to pause and
let the brain do its work.

01:14:25.712 --> 01:14:31.427
And especially overnight, because if you
leave them in a good neurochemical state,

01:14:31.757 --> 01:14:35.027
the next day, they'll be twice as good.

01:14:35.137 --> 01:14:35.717
I guarantee

01:14:37.187 --> 01:14:37.307
Rupert Isaacson: you.

01:14:37.817 --> 01:14:38.217
Go ahead.

01:14:38.257 --> 01:14:38.627
Sorry.

01:14:39.547 --> 01:14:42.427
Dr. Steven Peters: If you push
it and you stress them out and you

01:14:42.427 --> 01:14:48.417
create a trauma, you can also wire
this in a way you may not want.

01:14:48.707 --> 01:14:53.187
So that horse may be
twice as bad the next day.

01:14:53.197 --> 01:14:55.007
If you've decided you're
going to create a fight.

01:14:55.507 --> 01:14:55.817
Right.

01:14:55.817 --> 01:14:58.367
Rupert Isaacson: Neuroplasticity can
be negative as well as positive, right?

01:14:58.367 --> 01:14:59.707
One can go in a good way.

01:15:00.097 --> 01:15:03.827
, So, are you saying that we produce
more acetylcholine at night?

01:15:05.497 --> 01:15:07.907
Dr. Steven Peters: At night it
does a certain, a different job.

01:15:07.917 --> 01:15:10.677
We need acetylcholine, it
helps us pay attention as well.

01:15:11.097 --> 01:15:17.957
It helps us focus, because where your
attention goes, this is a little,  phrase

01:15:17.967 --> 01:15:24.207
that neuroscientists use, where attention
goes, neural, neural connections grow.

01:15:24.777 --> 01:15:25.127
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:15:25.882 --> 01:15:27.272
, thoughts become things basically,

01:15:28.092 --> 01:15:28.122
Dr. Steven Peters: right?

01:15:28.122 --> 01:15:28.752
Exactly.

01:15:29.012 --> 01:15:35.872
And when you do that, you fire that
neuron and then if you fire it again

01:15:36.112 --> 01:15:41.582
and you got it right, it stimulates
a myelin wrapping that then allows

01:15:41.582 --> 01:15:45.592
things to travel more efficiently
without loss of information and faster.

01:15:46.062 --> 01:15:50.412
So, as you rewire your
brain in this fashion.

01:15:51.327 --> 01:15:57.037
There's a, a neuroimaging called
diffusion tensor imaging, and you can

01:15:57.042 --> 01:16:02.287
look at the white matter and let's say
I saw a kid who was a piano protege.

01:16:03.197 --> 01:16:08.017
The areas of his brain that he
uses to play the piano are gonna

01:16:08.022 --> 01:16:10.597
be so puffy with white matter.

01:16:10.987 --> 01:16:15.167
He'll have layer after layer
of that wrapping on there.

01:16:15.167 --> 01:16:16.828
This, this one, the white is the

01:16:16.833 --> 01:16:17.177
Rupert Isaacson: wrapping.

01:16:17.177 --> 01:16:18.987
It's, it's the insulation on the white.

01:16:18.987 --> 01:16:19.427
It's the

01:16:19.432 --> 01:16:20.777
Dr. Steven Peters: information highway.

01:16:21.392 --> 01:16:26.482
That is more important in learning than
necessarily the parts of the brain.

01:16:26.482 --> 01:16:30.062
So when we point and say, Oh,
look at, you know, that's the

01:16:30.072 --> 01:16:31.382
part that works the finger.

01:16:31.792 --> 01:16:37.642
It's better to say, this is a complex
system, and it's the wiring and the

01:16:37.642 --> 01:16:40.087
information highway that's actually.

01:16:40.407 --> 01:16:41.477
the key to

01:16:42.917 --> 01:16:45.747
Rupert Isaacson: the efficiency of how the
information is passed along the highway.

01:16:45.757 --> 01:16:46.527
Absolutely.

01:16:46.757 --> 01:16:51.377
And the more insulation it has, the
more myelination it has, the more of

01:16:51.377 --> 01:16:55.527
the white matter it has insulating the
wire, the smoother it's going to go.

01:16:56.237 --> 01:16:56.897
You got it.

01:16:57.327 --> 01:16:57.767
Okay.

01:16:57.777 --> 01:16:59.447
So here's a question though.

01:16:59.447 --> 01:17:01.357
Do we, do we produce more?

01:17:03.477 --> 01:17:03.597
A

01:17:05.067 --> 01:17:05.847
Dr. Steven Peters: acetylcholine.

01:17:06.027 --> 01:17:09.467
Rupert Isaacson: Acetylcholine, , do we,
I'm gonna do this in text action kinda.

01:17:10.037 --> 01:17:14.297
Do we, do we all produce, do our asses
produce more acetylcholine when we all,

01:17:14.537 --> 01:17:16.067
when our asses are asleep at night?

01:17:16.397 --> 01:17:18.377
Or do we produce an equal amount of it?

01:17:18.587 --> 01:17:20.447
Whe whether we,  awake or asleep.

01:17:20.647 --> 01:17:23.107
Why is the sleeping
part of it so important?

01:17:24.047 --> 01:17:27.837
Dr. Steven Peters: I think it
has a different job to do in

01:17:27.837 --> 01:17:34.287
sleep because in sleep we don't
have all the outside distractions

01:17:35.447 --> 01:17:38.487
because interrupting our attention.

01:17:39.027 --> 01:17:42.597
Acetylcholine has to help us
with our attention focusing it.

01:17:42.727 --> 01:17:46.842
But when we're asleep We don't,
we don't have that same demand.

01:17:47.342 --> 01:17:51.802
And so we can go and do our rewiring.

01:17:51.812 --> 01:17:54.612
That's when we're assimilating
all this information.

01:17:54.792 --> 01:17:59.562
That's where some neuroscientists
think our dreams are just things

01:17:59.562 --> 01:18:02.772
that we've taken in during the
day that we're then assimilating

01:18:02.772 --> 01:18:05.402
in the, in the brain at night.

01:18:05.822 --> 01:18:10.582
So the acetylcholine, I can't say that
there's more acetylcholine produced at

01:18:10.592 --> 01:18:13.472
night, but acetylcholine's job changes.

01:18:14.152 --> 01:18:18.372
to okay solidifying the wiring.

01:18:18.732 --> 01:18:22.742
Rupert Isaacson: So is
acetylcholine at night when it

01:18:22.742 --> 01:18:25.232
becomes its meta effectiveness?

01:18:25.492 --> 01:18:26.662
That's what we call sleeping on it.

01:18:27.617 --> 01:18:28.007
Yes.

01:18:28.397 --> 01:18:28.817
Yeah.

01:18:30.297 --> 01:18:32.637
Basically we want to go
sleep with acetylcholine.

01:18:33.267 --> 01:18:33.972
Dr. Steven Peters: we do okay.

01:18:34.112 --> 01:18:37.232
We want, we wanna have a,  an
affair with acetacholine.

01:18:37.237 --> 01:18:39.482
Rupert Isaacson: We wanna have an
intimate relationship with acetylcholine.

01:18:39.602 --> 01:18:40.022
Got it.

01:18:40.322 --> 01:18:40.832
Okay.

01:18:41.042 --> 01:18:42.632
So we want to pause,

01:18:43.412 --> 01:18:45.242
Dr. Steven Peters: because
what happens if you don't sleep?

01:18:45.422 --> 01:18:47.102
Your attention goes out the window.

01:18:47.312 --> 01:18:47.402
Yeah.

01:18:47.972 --> 01:18:52.702
And, and if you, after a while, you get
sleep deprived over a number of days.

01:18:53.032 --> 01:18:53.092
Yeah.

01:18:53.092 --> 01:18:55.552
Your attention span really shrinks.

01:18:57.742 --> 01:19:01.362
In fact, if you did it long enough,
you'd probably start to hallucinate.

01:19:01.882 --> 01:19:04.152
And that's what happens with people
that are sleep deprived for long

01:19:04.152 --> 01:19:09.792
periods of time where their bodies
are just trying desperately to get

01:19:09.812 --> 01:19:10.382
Rupert Isaacson: to sleep.

01:19:13.372 --> 01:19:14.042
Okay.

01:19:14.062 --> 01:19:14.632
So,

01:19:14.742 --> 01:19:18.802
norepinephrine, norepinephrine,
norepinephrine, norepinephrine,

01:19:18.812 --> 01:19:19.792
why can't I get it right?

01:19:19.932 --> 01:19:20.732
I'm going to try it again.

01:19:20.732 --> 01:19:22.402
Maybe, maybe a southern
accent will help me.

01:19:22.602 --> 01:19:24.112
Norepinephrine, norepinephrine.

01:19:24.942 --> 01:19:26.152
Y'all got some norepinephrine.

01:19:26.342 --> 01:19:28.472
I got some good norepinephrine
right there, right there.

01:19:29.482 --> 01:19:35.002
And so that's, that's gonna,
that's going to stimulate.

01:19:36.167 --> 01:19:41.327
a little bit good, too much,
not good over into the red zone.

01:19:42.777 --> 01:19:45.077
So we want some of that for attention.

01:19:45.497 --> 01:19:52.317
And then we want some,  acetylcholine,
acetylcholine to, to help us to then

01:19:52.327 --> 01:19:56.847
build the,  white matter, the, the, the
myceliation, that the, the insulation

01:19:56.847 --> 01:20:05.122
along the, the wires that, and if
we sleep on it, If we stop before

01:20:05.122 --> 01:20:11.342
we go to a red zone and then allow a
sleep cycle pause, then when we come

01:20:11.342 --> 01:20:13.562
back the next day, we've allowed.

01:20:18.472 --> 01:20:20.942
Dr. Steven Peters: We've, we've
reduced a lot of the noise.

01:20:21.282 --> 01:20:28.172
And so by, by hearing off the, the,
the synapses that we don't need by

01:20:28.182 --> 01:20:30.592
weakening them and strengthening others.

01:20:30.772 --> 01:20:31.102
Right.

01:20:31.152 --> 01:20:34.942
Then we, we actually bring a
different brain to work the next

01:20:34.942 --> 01:20:35.302
Rupert Isaacson: day.

01:20:35.582 --> 01:20:35.932
Right.

01:20:35.932 --> 01:20:40.302
So what it often feels to me,  for
myself, for my horses and for a

01:20:40.302 --> 01:20:41.552
lot of the people I work with.

01:20:42.222 --> 01:20:45.962
Is that over time when we do this,
we effectively grow ourselves a new

01:20:45.962 --> 01:20:50.462
brain, you know, I am, I become a
different person over a certain number

01:20:50.462 --> 01:20:53.012
of days over a certain number of
months over a certain number of years.

01:20:53.172 --> 01:20:56.502
The horse certainly does,  the,
you know, we get these horses

01:20:56.502 --> 01:21:00.732
that come in and start with, you
know, effectively no fucking way.

01:21:01.042 --> 01:21:06.502
And then they go to me and then they
go to,  and then they go to, okay.

01:21:06.612 --> 01:21:07.852
And then they go to at your service.

01:21:08.667 --> 01:21:14.507
And we, we observe this process time
and time again, and what I've generally

01:21:14.787 --> 01:21:18.827
put it down to through the explanation
of neuroscience is, is BDNF, Brain

01:21:18.827 --> 01:21:21.487
Derived Neurotrophic Factor, i.

01:21:21.497 --> 01:21:21.717
e.

01:21:21.817 --> 01:21:25.227
neuroplasticity, kicking in
through moving and problem solving.

01:21:25.327 --> 01:21:26.817
That's how it's been explained to me.

01:21:27.717 --> 01:21:31.867
Are these two components
neuro, neuro, neuroepiprofen?

01:21:35.942 --> 01:21:36.372
Norepinephrine.

01:21:36.742 --> 01:21:37.922
Norepinephrine.

01:21:38.512 --> 01:21:39.452
Norepinephrine.

01:21:40.342 --> 01:21:41.692
And acetylcholine.

01:21:43.492 --> 01:21:47.702
Aspects of BDNF, they must also
be proteins, right, to somebody,

01:21:47.852 --> 01:21:49.112
because BDNF is a protein.

01:21:49.392 --> 01:21:53.582
Are they aspects of brain
derived neurotrophic factor that

01:21:54.442 --> 01:21:55.732
Are they things that a, yeah.

01:21:56.242 --> 01:21:56.662
Positive

01:21:56.872 --> 01:21:56.962
Dr. Steven Peters: tell.

01:21:57.592 --> 01:21:57.892
Ok.

01:21:58.762 --> 01:22:01.072
Not to get too far afield,
but let's draw that.

01:22:01.072 --> 01:22:02.692
All that picture all together.

01:22:03.289 --> 01:22:07.139
Cortisol, we call that a,  glucocorticoid.

01:22:07.619 --> 01:22:09.729
A glucocorticoid, right?

01:22:10.409 --> 01:22:11.849
Stress, much cortisol, right?

01:22:12.179 --> 01:22:17.519
So if we have too much glucocorticoid
on board, we're stressed out, right?

01:22:18.869 --> 01:22:24.639
But if, if we're resilient to stress,
if we brought been brought up in

01:22:24.639 --> 01:22:30.519
a loving environment,  nurturing
environment, we can create what's

01:22:30.519 --> 01:22:32.989
called glucocorticoid receptors.

01:22:34.089 --> 01:22:36.819
What these glucocorticoid
receptors do is they'll take the

01:22:36.829 --> 01:22:39.999
glucocorticoid and mediate it.

01:22:40.529 --> 01:22:42.619
so that it won't have that impact.

01:22:42.639 --> 01:22:45.909
So the more glucocorticoid
receptors you have, the more

01:22:45.909 --> 01:22:48.049
resilient you are to stress.

01:22:48.489 --> 01:22:52.089
And we find like rat pups who lick
their pups, those pups grow up

01:22:52.089 --> 01:22:56.119
feeling loved and feel they have
more glucocorticoid receptors.

01:22:56.129 --> 01:22:58.879
So they're more resistant to stress.

01:22:59.439 --> 01:23:05.519
So there's now a connection between
the amount of glucocorticoid

01:23:05.539 --> 01:23:12.024
receptors and the amount of BDNF that
you have in your, in your system.

01:23:12.634 --> 01:23:18.474
BDNF, we know that, that,  you can produce
that by exercise and movement, right?

01:23:19.084 --> 01:23:23.174
But also you can optimize
that by feeling safe.

01:23:24.334 --> 01:23:24.724
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:23:25.224 --> 01:23:29.254
So environment has a big part
of it and mammalian care.

01:23:29.264 --> 01:23:34.744
So oxytocin must have a big part of
it then because they must be getting

01:23:35.374 --> 01:23:35.574
Dr. Steven Peters: right.

01:23:35.614 --> 01:23:39.034
And now you're starting to
really put together the pieces.

01:23:39.514 --> 01:23:45.024
that this truly is a cocktail
that's very complicated that

01:23:45.034 --> 01:23:46.614
we have to keep measuring.

01:23:47.094 --> 01:23:50.164
so when people tell me, you
know, well, dopamine does this

01:23:50.164 --> 01:23:51.544
and that explains everything.

01:23:52.584 --> 01:23:55.304
Well, that's just one of the
things that you're taking out of

01:23:55.304 --> 01:23:57.764
your bar here and mixing together.

01:23:58.174 --> 01:24:01.314
And so Martin Black would tell
me the guy, Tom Dorrance, who

01:24:01.314 --> 01:24:02.834
was so affected with horses.

01:24:03.724 --> 01:24:08.374
Martin describes him as the master
bartender that he couldn't articulate

01:24:08.374 --> 01:24:13.824
what was going on, but he kept, he take
those horses that were maybe docile and,

01:24:13.984 --> 01:24:19.574
and, and passive and bring up energy
in them, not stress them, but bring

01:24:19.574 --> 01:24:24.464
up energy and the opposite horses that
seemed highly stressed, he could bring

01:24:24.464 --> 01:24:26.084
them down and make them feel comfortable.

01:24:26.414 --> 01:24:30.284
So there were things that he
was doing to create a cocktail

01:24:30.284 --> 01:24:31.954
regardless of where the horse was.

01:24:32.429 --> 01:24:37.929
In this whole spectrum of behaviors,
it, we all have neurochemicals in us,

01:24:38.729 --> 01:24:42.649
and we all have brains, and we may have
nervous systems that are set here if

01:24:42.649 --> 01:24:47.019
you're an Arab, and set here if you're
a draft horse, but nonetheless, you can

01:24:47.049 --> 01:24:48.709
still work with this neurochemistry.

01:24:51.079 --> 01:24:56.399
Rupert Isaacson: Why then, is
this neurochemistry not taught?

01:24:57.459 --> 01:25:02.129
in most therapeutic,  training modalities.

01:25:02.589 --> 01:25:07.069
And why is it not a
part of, horse training?

01:25:07.859 --> 01:25:10.639
because when I say part of horse
training, I mean, for example,

01:25:10.639 --> 01:25:11.679
I'm sitting here in Germany.

01:25:12.539 --> 01:25:16.409
And, so things are quite regulated here.

01:25:17.059 --> 01:25:20.349
You can't just, for example, show up
and say, I'm a dressage trainer or I'm

01:25:20.349 --> 01:25:25.839
a, yeah, you'd have to set show what
your training was, what you did, and

01:25:25.839 --> 01:25:30.669
it's all regulated by something called
the FN, the Federation Nationale,

01:25:30.789 --> 01:25:32.249
governs a little bit like the U.

01:25:32.249 --> 01:25:32.369
S.

01:25:32.369 --> 01:25:34.429
Equestrian Federation, but more German.

01:25:34.849 --> 01:25:38.529
it has a whole system of teaching.

01:25:39.979 --> 01:25:42.449
No brain science for horse or rider.

01:25:42.829 --> 01:25:45.599
the British horse society, the same
thing, the USCF, the same thing.

01:25:45.919 --> 01:25:49.279
and that's before you go into,  getting
trained to be a therapeutic writing

01:25:49.279 --> 01:25:56.009
instructor or something like that, where
we began this conversation that you're

01:25:56.009 --> 01:25:58.369
trying to reach a fellow human being.

01:25:58.859 --> 01:26:01.589
Well, that's the brain you're
trying to reach a horse.

01:26:01.839 --> 01:26:02.679
Well, that's the brain.

01:26:03.939 --> 01:26:07.879
Yet this, all these things that
we've covered in the last hour,

01:26:08.809 --> 01:26:11.749
they're not part of any mainstream.

01:26:12.894 --> 01:26:19.164
training thing, equine or equine
assisted or sport equine that I have come

01:26:19.164 --> 01:26:20.824
across, let alone teaching in schools.

01:26:20.924 --> 01:26:21.484
Why is that?

01:26:23.594 --> 01:26:25.584
Dr. Steven Peters: Well, I
think there's a lot of reasons.

01:26:25.594 --> 01:26:29.124
One is it creates a tremendous
amount of cognitive dissonance.

01:26:29.524 --> 01:26:36.034
If somebody's identity Is tied to a
method of training and we've been rigid

01:26:36.034 --> 01:26:40.894
and it passed down and, and you can't
go outside this, this method of training

01:26:40.894 --> 01:26:43.814
because then you're in the enemy camp.

01:26:44.134 --> 01:26:48.624
So we've almost built these, these
rigid camps and you get ostracized

01:26:48.624 --> 01:26:53.754
by your, your social group if you're
now in another way of thinking.

01:26:54.184 --> 01:26:58.884
But if, if my whole social
identity is in the 20 years that

01:26:58.884 --> 01:27:00.494
I've been brought up in a system.

01:27:00.934 --> 01:27:01.414
Right.

01:27:01.819 --> 01:27:05.269
And then I have to rethink
that and let go of that.

01:27:05.419 --> 01:27:11.059
It's much easier to say, that's a bunch
of baloney, or that's too complicated.

01:27:11.109 --> 01:27:13.029
So that's one piece of it.

01:27:13.349 --> 01:27:17.979
Now, dopamine happens to be one
neurochemical that people look at,

01:27:18.249 --> 01:27:23.379
because dopamine underlies It's every
study that that's linked to learning.

01:27:23.659 --> 01:27:28.289
You have to be motivated to learn and you
set things up so you'll be motivated to

01:27:28.289 --> 01:27:30.939
learn positive reinforcement, etc, etc.

01:27:32.229 --> 01:27:37.809
But why are all the other neuro
chemicals left left out of this.

01:27:42.299 --> 01:27:45.639
University veterinary programs about this.

01:27:45.709 --> 01:27:50.359
They said, yeah, you know, I said, I'm
reading research, you know, that shows,

01:27:50.699 --> 01:27:56.579
you know, that the same neurochemistry is
working in humans that works in horses.

01:27:56.599 --> 01:27:58.379
They've got all the same stuff here.

01:27:59.649 --> 01:28:02.709
And they said, well, that's just
too complicated for the lay public.

01:28:02.709 --> 01:28:03.459
You know, that's just.

01:28:03.889 --> 01:28:05.319
That's, that's out there.

01:28:05.319 --> 01:28:14.369
In fact, when I went to Scotland and
I,  I, I gave presentations to large

01:28:14.399 --> 01:28:20.364
veterinary groups, They get very little
of that part of things in their schooling.

01:28:20.364 --> 01:28:26.214
This was all new stuff to them,
even in the equine medical world.

01:28:26.724 --> 01:28:32.524
and basically it's been my mission
to try to, to translate this into

01:28:32.814 --> 01:28:35.384
lay terms and trying to find.

01:28:36.874 --> 01:28:42.884
Concepts and, and,  examples that are
understandable to the lay person, because,

01:28:43.314 --> 01:28:49.184
I, I think this is,  important stuff
and you see it in the medical field.

01:28:49.194 --> 01:28:54.004
Let me give you an example, you know,
with autism, you, you end up with

01:28:54.004 --> 01:28:56.744
a protocol that's in place, right?

01:28:56.744 --> 01:28:58.664
And we've always followed this protocol.

01:28:58.664 --> 01:29:03.034
And so, you know, your, your child is
going to be sent to, let's say speech

01:29:03.034 --> 01:29:04.984
therapy and physical therapy, and that's.

01:29:05.654 --> 01:29:09.264
That's the way that this,
the prescription is written.

01:29:09.604 --> 01:29:12.274
And so everybody gets on
the same page with that, and

01:29:12.274 --> 01:29:13.544
they've done it for 10 years.

01:29:13.754 --> 01:29:17.664
So that must be the way
that we, we, we do this.

01:29:18.014 --> 01:29:21.334
And so, you know, it's easy to dismiss.

01:29:21.334 --> 01:29:24.454
You get cognitive dissonance and
you dismiss this as out of the

01:29:24.454 --> 01:29:27.164
box or way out there, wacky stuff.

01:29:27.324 --> 01:29:27.694
Cognitive

01:29:28.134 --> 01:29:29.884
Rupert Isaacson: dissonance
in layman's terms means...

01:29:30.459 --> 01:29:32.399
I don't quite get it, so
I'm going to dismiss it.

01:29:33.489 --> 01:29:33.869
Right.

01:29:33.939 --> 01:29:36.349
Dr. Steven Peters: Or, you
know, it's threatening to the

01:29:36.369 --> 01:29:38.179
beliefs that I hold currently.

01:29:38.519 --> 01:29:41.739
And I've got to change my worldview
if I'm going to accept that.

01:29:41.889 --> 01:29:43.289
That's too hard for me to do.

01:29:43.619 --> 01:29:44.999
They don't do that consciously.

01:29:45.279 --> 01:29:48.139
That's too hard for me to do, so I'm
going to stay right here with what I got.

01:29:49.929 --> 01:29:54.089
And, you know, there's nothing
more rigid and traditional than

01:29:55.219 --> 01:29:57.589
horse training and horse camps.

01:30:01.809 --> 01:30:03.339
Rupert Isaacson: It's,  it's
an interesting thing

01:30:03.349 --> 01:30:05.579
that, that now we're in a.

01:30:06.609 --> 01:30:15.829
A moment in history where the horse
is once again,  changing its role

01:30:15.829 --> 01:30:17.299
with humans, at least in the West.

01:30:18.179 --> 01:30:28.349
so it's gone from transport to livestock,
to war, to,  entertainment, to sport.

01:30:28.674 --> 01:30:30.234
And now it's coming into therapy.

01:30:30.234 --> 01:30:32.934
And it's not that it's completely
lost those other functions either.

01:30:33.144 --> 01:30:34.014
They're still there.

01:30:34.204 --> 01:30:40.974
However, where people were saying maybe
10 or 20 years ago, we used to hear a

01:30:40.974 --> 01:30:45.714
lot of people saying, Oh, the horse has
now become irrelevant to modern life.

01:30:45.714 --> 01:30:48.534
It's just purely,  a recreational thing.

01:30:49.104 --> 01:30:55.264
And now I think that that shifted
again and the vast,  development

01:30:55.554 --> 01:30:57.164
of the equine assisted.

01:30:57.894 --> 01:31:00.664
universe, because it's not
just special needs anymore.

01:31:00.664 --> 01:31:02.094
It's, it's, it's anxiety.

01:31:02.094 --> 01:31:04.084
It's people just wanting to
understand it's team building.

01:31:04.084 --> 01:31:07.244
It's people wanting to understand
human interaction and metaphors.

01:31:07.244 --> 01:31:10.394
And whether you get into, should
we anthropomorphize that or not is

01:31:10.394 --> 01:31:14.524
almost an irrelevant thing because
we can only anthropomorphize because

01:31:14.524 --> 01:31:17.994
it's the only lens through which we
can view, and presumably that will

01:31:17.994 --> 01:31:22.184
get more and more developed and more
and more nuanced, blah, blah, blah.

01:31:22.354 --> 01:31:26.604
But nonetheless, the horse is right there
in this professional role with us again.

01:31:27.304 --> 01:31:33.384
In a new way, and it seems
that the neuroscience is at the

01:31:33.384 --> 01:31:37.364
absolute,  foundation of this.

01:31:38.034 --> 01:31:41.934
Why it works, people might not know
why it works, but as soon as the

01:31:41.934 --> 01:31:44.774
neuroscience is explained, they're like,
oh yes, I see, okay, that makes sense.

01:31:45.394 --> 01:31:50.014
Yet it's not, the neuroscience is
not in the training protocols yet.

01:31:50.934 --> 01:31:58.164
for, as you say, not for veterinary,
not for sport, and interestingly, not

01:31:58.164 --> 01:32:03.484
much for The,  the, the therapeutic
end we, we at Horsepoy and Movement

01:32:03.484 --> 01:32:08.834
Method only have it in because we
got curious about why it was working.

01:32:09.044 --> 01:32:13.014
And then we went and talked to a number
of neuroscientists and we basically

01:32:13.014 --> 01:32:14.204
got the same answer from them all.

01:32:14.204 --> 01:32:17.324
So it allowed us to come up with a
diagram that we could go back to them

01:32:17.324 --> 01:32:21.584
and say, are you basically saying that
You've got this overdeveloped amygdala.

01:32:21.584 --> 01:32:22.614
You've got too much cortisol.

01:32:22.774 --> 01:32:24.734
You've got this
overdeveloped nervous system.

01:32:24.904 --> 01:32:26.084
They're firing off each other.

01:32:26.084 --> 01:32:27.674
You're getting into a
vicious cycle with this.

01:32:27.964 --> 01:32:30.994
And now we can come along with some
hip rocking and some oxytocin, and

01:32:30.994 --> 01:32:34.094
this is calming the nervous system
and,  also create, switching off

01:32:34.094 --> 01:32:36.994
the amygdala, but also creating
BDNF because they're balancing.

01:32:37.294 --> 01:32:40.594
And therefore we get to the
prefrontal cortex and therefore,

01:32:40.594 --> 01:32:41.554
and they kind of looked at it.

01:32:41.564 --> 01:32:43.484
There were several kind of
went, well, yeah, kind of.

01:32:43.869 --> 01:32:48.099
And we said, okay, well, this is very
helpful for us because now and what we

01:32:48.099 --> 01:32:54.699
found is that in no way Has the layman
had any trouble understanding this?

01:32:55.139 --> 01:33:02.519
Okay, some some of the terms Like I
keep mispronouncing Neuropenephrine.

01:33:02.689 --> 01:33:04.759
Neuropenephrine and,  I say...

01:33:05.089 --> 01:33:05.519
Acetylcholine.

01:33:05.759 --> 01:33:06.529
Acetylcholine.

01:33:06.529 --> 01:33:07.099
Okay.

01:33:07.179 --> 01:33:09.609
And it will take me some, some,
some repetitions of that, but

01:33:09.629 --> 01:33:13.409
things like oxytocin and things
like BDNF are relatively easy to

01:33:13.409 --> 01:33:16.839
stay or Purkinje cells or some of
the other stuff that we get into.

01:33:17.159 --> 01:33:19.509
And of course, a lot of this
is just simply,  about...

01:33:19.994 --> 01:33:23.854
Get practicing and getting familiar,
and we do know that scientists love

01:33:23.874 --> 01:33:27.704
their jargon and they love to come up
with Multi syllable complicated words

01:33:27.704 --> 01:33:31.024
that are just frankly difficult to
remember because a neuroscientist would

01:33:31.034 --> 01:33:35.794
have as much difficulty remembering
Something in another language in several

01:33:35.794 --> 01:33:41.049
syllables as as this it just happens
to be their field however I do think

01:33:41.059 --> 01:33:42.749
that most people are really up for it.

01:33:42.999 --> 01:33:45.849
I think that most people are open to it.

01:33:45.879 --> 01:33:47.909
I think there's a real hunger for it.

01:33:48.789 --> 01:33:52.089
So you say that you're not
to mention a need for it.

01:33:52.349 --> 01:33:55.399
You you're going and you're giving,
you mentioned coming back from

01:33:55.399 --> 01:33:59.379
Scotland and talking to groups of,
of,  veterinary students there.

01:33:59.829 --> 01:34:04.809
and so, so you're clearly
going out and about turning

01:34:04.809 --> 01:34:06.299
people onto this neuroscience.

01:34:06.659 --> 01:34:10.859
What, what's your, what's your basic.

01:34:11.229 --> 01:34:17.659
A, B, C that you go into your
average lay audience with.

01:34:18.969 --> 01:34:23.809
And say these, this is the boom,
boom, boom that you need to understand

01:34:23.849 --> 01:34:25.289
to make your shit go better.

01:34:25.799 --> 01:34:26.239
Hit us.

01:34:26.279 --> 01:34:26.669
What is it?

01:34:27.789 --> 01:34:31.139
Dr. Steven Peters: Well, basically
what I'll do is I'll take images

01:34:31.159 --> 01:34:35.689
because images are better than jargon,
you know, and I'd stay away from the

01:34:35.689 --> 01:34:40.189
big words and, and if they're going to
run across them in the literature and

01:34:40.189 --> 01:34:44.599
they want to search for them, like on
Google Scholar or Science Direct, you

01:34:44.599 --> 01:34:46.479
know, I tell them where to go to also.

01:34:46.884 --> 01:34:51.894
, get information because, you know,
the, there's so much pseudoscience

01:34:51.984 --> 01:34:55.864
out there in social media that
they can get really pulled off.

01:34:56.484 --> 01:34:59.044
Basically, what I'll do is, is.

01:34:59.824 --> 01:35:03.274
We look at horses in
certain different states.

01:35:03.604 --> 01:35:08.434
So, a horse that's in a parasympathetic
mode, a horse that's alert with some

01:35:08.764 --> 01:35:12.374
acetylcholine aboard, a horse that
now has too much norepinephrine,

01:35:12.564 --> 01:35:16.324
and they're looking for fight or
flight, a horse that's been totally

01:35:16.324 --> 01:35:20.054
restrained, taken away fight or
flight that's now gone into freeze.

01:35:20.449 --> 01:35:24.649
which is a different response than
just being parked and comfortable.

01:35:25.909 --> 01:35:28.759
And we talk about what's going
on in those horses brains.

01:35:28.949 --> 01:35:30.349
How did they get there?

01:35:31.019 --> 01:35:35.899
And then how can you create an
environment that you'll recognize these

01:35:35.909 --> 01:35:39.439
things and,  and set up environments
where your horse can get there.

01:35:39.819 --> 01:35:44.859
And so what people leave is being able
to better connect with their horses, have

01:35:44.859 --> 01:35:49.134
a better understanding and language of
what's going on in their horse's brain.

01:35:49.424 --> 01:35:50.834
And this is most empowering.

01:35:50.834 --> 01:35:54.884
What I tell them is that you are
going to be responsible for the

01:35:54.884 --> 01:35:58.874
amount of dendrites and neuronal
connections in your horse's brain.

01:35:59.194 --> 01:36:03.684
You can create a special forces horse
that's filled with dendrites and super

01:36:03.684 --> 01:36:09.434
smart, or you can pair them all down
and just get a robotic kind of horse.

01:36:09.849 --> 01:36:14.179
That you're not connected with,
but you are, regardless of what you

01:36:14.179 --> 01:36:17.969
do, you're responsible for creating
that brain because that horse lives

01:36:17.969 --> 01:36:20.109
with you and interacts with you.

01:36:21.419 --> 01:36:25.409
And I think just that message
alone,  is,  is one they take home.

01:36:25.439 --> 01:36:27.319
And I tell them, don't believe me.

01:36:27.409 --> 01:36:28.489
Just ask your horse.

01:36:28.924 --> 01:36:32.684
Just go out and experiment
because everybody's a scientist.

01:36:32.904 --> 01:36:34.124
You don't have to have a big name.

01:36:35.104 --> 01:36:36.134
Everything is data.

01:36:36.214 --> 01:36:38.294
Everything is experience and information.

01:36:38.514 --> 01:36:43.244
Go out there and try things with your
horse and, and, and work with your horse.

01:36:43.244 --> 01:36:48.674
Your horse is an individual
as well with its own makeup.

01:36:49.024 --> 01:36:51.614
and that's kind of the package I put

01:36:51.614 --> 01:36:52.104
Rupert Isaacson: together.

01:36:53.234 --> 01:36:58.544
So basically you're saying go
create dendrites and axons.

01:36:59.389 --> 01:37:01.509
Yes, axons meetings of dendrites

01:37:04.419 --> 01:37:08.669
Dr. Steven Peters: in axon is the
long nerve ending, but at the end of

01:37:08.669 --> 01:37:11.569
that we'll branch out all these, these

01:37:11.569 --> 01:37:12.079
Rupert Isaacson: dendrites.

01:37:12.329 --> 01:37:12.649
Okay.

01:37:12.649 --> 01:37:16.229
So the axon is the main branch, the
dendrite, the dendrites of the chest.

01:37:16.229 --> 01:37:16.579
Okay.

01:37:16.619 --> 01:37:16.969
Got it.

01:37:17.439 --> 01:37:17.799
And so

01:37:17.799 --> 01:37:19.499
Dr. Steven Peters: if a message
comes in, it might come in

01:37:19.499 --> 01:37:21.049
through the dendrite into the

01:37:22.729 --> 01:37:23.819
Rupert Isaacson: axon and pass on its way.

01:37:23.859 --> 01:37:27.299
And then the axon, the axon will
then take it further into the,

01:37:27.739 --> 01:37:30.019
the nervous system that's Right.

01:37:30.039 --> 01:37:30.699
Bagel nerve.

01:37:30.699 --> 01:37:30.799
And.

01:37:31.209 --> 01:37:31.629
Those things.

01:37:31.659 --> 01:37:32.129
Okay.

01:37:32.699 --> 01:37:37.109
So go create a bunch of, of,
of dendrites and axons, create

01:37:37.109 --> 01:37:40.979
this forest of functional brain.

01:37:41.579 --> 01:37:47.049
behavior in your self, in your horse,
in your child, in your person that

01:37:47.049 --> 01:37:52.189
you're working with by doing a bunch
of cool shit in a non stressful way.

01:37:52.909 --> 01:37:53.519
I'll give you a

01:37:53.649 --> 01:37:54.639
Dr. Steven Peters: real quick example.

01:37:55.319 --> 01:37:59.139
Let's say you have a horse that rears
because somebody's restrained them, taken

01:37:59.139 --> 01:38:04.029
away fight or flight, sort of whipped at
them and all they're left with was Yeah.

01:38:04.069 --> 01:38:06.819
So then somebody else inherits
this horse and says, that's a bad

01:38:06.819 --> 01:38:07.989
horse that will get you killed.

01:38:08.039 --> 01:38:09.239
Let's put this horse down.

01:38:09.949 --> 01:38:13.789
Or you could approach it as this
horse has been so overwhelmed with

01:38:13.789 --> 01:38:19.179
norepinephrine that what I have to do is
one, make them feel safe, first of all.

01:38:19.569 --> 01:38:25.129
So I have to go back because the horse is
now a victim of that neuronal connection.

01:38:25.339 --> 01:38:26.179
It's now in place.

01:38:26.409 --> 01:38:27.099
They can't help it.

01:38:27.599 --> 01:38:30.759
That's what the norepinephrine
is just going to send information

01:38:30.759 --> 01:38:32.279
down that pathway to survive.

01:38:32.869 --> 01:38:35.949
What I have to do is show that horse,
it doesn't need to go take that

01:38:35.949 --> 01:38:38.269
pathway by creating good pathways.

01:38:38.499 --> 01:38:41.699
So they're getting more and more
serotonin and balancing out.

01:38:42.109 --> 01:38:46.259
Once I get it to a certain level,
then I can start to say, okay,

01:38:46.589 --> 01:38:47.879
now let's go get some dopamine.

01:38:48.289 --> 01:38:51.899
You're at a place where you can
finally start to, to get some dopamine.

01:38:52.089 --> 01:38:56.239
And then they get really, they
learn to learn and they're looking

01:38:56.239 --> 01:38:57.849
for every opportunity to learn.

01:38:58.439 --> 01:39:00.809
Now I've got a horse
that I'm out riding with.

01:39:00.809 --> 01:39:06.589
It's comfortable, calm, and looking
at new things as opportunity.

01:39:06.969 --> 01:39:10.719
And that would have been a horse I would
have put down if I just left them with

01:39:10.729 --> 01:39:14.329
that old connected network in that.

01:39:15.254 --> 01:39:17.324
And people who see that get scared.

01:39:17.634 --> 01:39:20.804
So then they feel like they have
to provide some kind of punishment

01:39:21.604 --> 01:39:25.864
and you're really just reinforcing
creating more white matter on

01:39:25.864 --> 01:39:28.534
that dysfunctional pathway.

01:39:29.034 --> 01:39:29.364
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:39:30.054 --> 01:39:33.089
Um, so, okay, so Let's go again.

01:39:33.089 --> 01:39:39.139
So let's take a, let's take our human
or our horse, that human, us, that human

01:39:39.139 --> 01:39:42.419
could be the person that we're working
with if we're in an equine assistive

01:39:42.419 --> 01:39:46.789
context, the person, or it could be
our riding student and it can certainly

01:39:46.789 --> 01:39:50.529
be our horse because all of us who
are going out into this environment

01:39:50.529 --> 01:39:55.119
together are taking a nervous system
and a brain with us and let's create

01:39:55.179 --> 01:39:58.619
as many dendrites and axons as we can.

01:39:59.159 --> 01:40:02.529
And get those, hopefully those,
those dendrites, those twigs to brush

01:40:02.529 --> 01:40:07.109
against each other to buy lots and
lots of cool new stimuli, but let's

01:40:07.109 --> 01:40:14.969
be careful to do enough norepiprofen
to get things stimulated, but not

01:40:14.979 --> 01:40:17.239
so much that we overstimulate.

01:40:17.349 --> 01:40:22.959
So let's do a bunch of pausing and
let's use,  some serotonin oxytocin

01:40:23.769 --> 01:40:25.849
things like having their friends along.

01:40:26.229 --> 01:40:32.759
Or older horses that can make them feel
safe or empathetic touch or many of

01:40:32.759 --> 01:40:37.339
these that will create these chemicals
and then we can,  when they're, when

01:40:37.339 --> 01:40:41.649
they have learned something or are
clearly learning something, let's

01:40:41.679 --> 01:40:47.259
pause and go away and sleep on it
with our, with our dear friend,

01:40:50.629 --> 01:40:51.569
as say to colon.

01:40:51.799 --> 01:40:55.489
so that in the course of that pause.

01:40:56.479 --> 01:41:01.719
long or short, those neural pathways can
be established in, in the positive way.

01:41:02.209 --> 01:41:06.209
the BDNF, the brain derived neurotrophic
factor can kick in, in a way that

01:41:06.209 --> 01:41:08.339
is lasting, not just in the moment.

01:41:08.759 --> 01:41:11.089
And we are in a positive progression.

01:41:11.489 --> 01:41:11.949
Is that.

01:41:12.369 --> 01:41:13.249
More or less, sir,

01:41:14.589 --> 01:41:17.319
Dr. Steven Peters: in a nutshell,
that is, you hit the nail on the head.

01:41:17.699 --> 01:41:21.119
Rupert Isaacson: So if I were to
come along, if I was to, from this

01:41:21.139 --> 01:41:25.449
conversation, produce a little diagram of
that, I think I'm going to, I'm going to

01:41:25.449 --> 01:41:27.419
try and I'm going to bring it back to you.

01:41:27.499 --> 01:41:29.289
And then you'll tell me if
I've got it right or wrong.

01:41:29.659 --> 01:41:31.609
I have to tweak it and
then we'll tweak it.

01:41:32.309 --> 01:41:34.429
I think that would be a useful thing.

01:41:34.924 --> 01:41:40.854
For me as a guideline to then also
when I'm working with my students

01:41:40.854 --> 01:41:46.184
and when I'm working with my whoever
I'm working with to point to that

01:41:46.184 --> 01:41:47.574
diagram and say, well, look, Dr.

01:41:47.574 --> 01:41:48.964
Steve takes us through this.

01:41:49.264 --> 01:41:54.144
if we could be mindful of this process,
we're respecting the brain science.

01:41:54.634 --> 01:42:00.184
And if you forget how to pronounce
norepiprofen and acetylcholine, it's

01:42:00.184 --> 01:42:03.634
all right, because you just know
what to do in order to get them.

01:42:03.961 --> 01:42:07.341
You know, this is, this is exactly the
kind of information that I'm always

01:42:07.341 --> 01:42:16.021
looking for, because I think, you know,
when, what, the thing that mystified me

01:42:16.171 --> 01:42:20.711
when I went to see the neuroscientist
To get the explanations about why

01:42:20.731 --> 01:42:24.661
what we were doing was working was I
was like, well, why are you, why do

01:42:24.701 --> 01:42:29.041
I have to come and fucking find you
and hunt you down like a wild coyote?

01:42:29.301 --> 01:42:32.051
Why isn't this information
sort of out there?

01:42:32.451 --> 01:42:35.701
And they sort of say, well, honestly,
rude people aren't interested.

01:42:36.021 --> 01:42:38.661
we're here doing our neuroscience
stuff and we publish our stuff,

01:42:38.661 --> 01:42:41.271
but I'll give you an example.

01:42:41.471 --> 01:42:45.211
at the University of Texas, you know,
. Where we worked a bit with the autism

01:42:45.211 --> 01:42:49.241
lab and in the beginning bit with my son,
because my ex wife was a professor there.

01:42:49.721 --> 01:42:52.771
and then we just ran straight into
a kind of nightmare of behaviorism.

01:42:54.331 --> 01:43:02.691
The, the, the neuroscientists were just
a couple of meters away, and they had

01:43:02.691 --> 01:43:05.761
all the information that would have
made that behavioral approach better.

01:43:06.041 --> 01:43:10.206
Yet those people were not talking
to each other, just on a human Based

01:43:10.206 --> 01:43:13.126
on that set of academics, we're not
talking to that set of academics.

01:43:13.886 --> 01:43:17.026
And that's where it became sort of siloed.

01:43:17.656 --> 01:43:21.166
And then one has to go out and
actually seek the knowledge.

01:43:21.531 --> 01:43:25.271
Even though it's hiding in plain
sight, but you're there coming along

01:43:25.381 --> 01:43:30.281
and letting us know, is this,  is
this the basic one, two, three that

01:43:30.281 --> 01:43:33.441
you're taking people through, whether
it's vet schools or horse training or?

01:43:35.481 --> 01:43:36.311
Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah.

01:43:36.741 --> 01:43:42.241
And no matter what program you
have, no matter what discipline

01:43:42.241 --> 01:43:45.121
you have, you know, you could say
this is the right way to do it.

01:43:45.141 --> 01:43:46.301
A, B and C and D.

01:43:46.716 --> 01:43:50.046
You can come up with any program
you want positive reinforcement,

01:43:50.056 --> 01:43:53.696
negative reinforcement, whatever
you use clicker training, et cetera.

01:43:56.016 --> 01:43:59.606
The brain is going to process
it in the brain's terms.

01:44:00.596 --> 01:44:04.776
So, no matter what program you
have, understanding how the brain

01:44:04.776 --> 01:44:09.126
processes it, because the brain
doesn't care what program you have,

01:44:09.436 --> 01:44:12.126
it wants to be able to best process.

01:44:13.981 --> 01:44:18.361
So setting up the environment that
best allows brains to do that, and

01:44:18.381 --> 01:44:25.081
oftentimes in this busy world, merely
slowing down enough to assimilate

01:44:25.101 --> 01:44:30.951
information gets you farther down
the road than if you tried to force

01:44:30.961 --> 01:44:35.991
things to happen when the brain doesn't
actually want to take it in that way.

01:44:37.701 --> 01:44:41.071
Rupert Isaacson: So I'm just
writing my little diagram here.

01:44:41.241 --> 01:44:41.631
Okay.

01:44:42.681 --> 01:44:43.111
Yes.

01:44:43.181 --> 01:44:50.471
So we, we know that we don't
need, if anything is overwhelmed,

01:44:52.551 --> 01:44:54.821
then it's going to be a disaster.

01:44:55.371 --> 01:44:59.481
This seems to be the, the
neuroscience of horse sense, the

01:44:59.491 --> 01:45:00.861
neuroscience of common sense.

01:45:01.621 --> 01:45:04.371
, what I like about it too, is
it gets away from just the

01:45:04.371 --> 01:45:06.951
pure, , pleasure hormones thing.

01:45:07.451 --> 01:45:12.381
Dopamine, serotonin, , endorphins,
oxytocin, that we know we need all those.

01:45:13.511 --> 01:45:15.441
However, they're not the whole picture.

01:45:15.441 --> 01:45:17.461
We need, they need to be
dosed in certain ways.

01:45:17.461 --> 01:45:21.901
And it seems like what you've told
us here with the dendrites and axons

01:45:21.901 --> 01:45:29.221
to the norepiprofen to the pausing to
the,  acetyl, acetylcholine gives us a

01:45:29.221 --> 01:45:34.561
way of, as you say, being a bartender,
of being able to deliver those good

01:45:34.611 --> 01:45:36.741
things in a way that's appropriate.

01:45:37.206 --> 01:45:40.426
For the situation, the context, the
animal or the human that's in front

01:45:40.426 --> 01:45:45.536
of us or oneself in this particular
moment, this is massively useful.

01:45:45.746 --> 01:45:48.366
How are people, how can
people come on your courses?

01:45:48.896 --> 01:45:49.546
Tell us about this.

01:45:49.546 --> 01:45:53.516
How can they find you and how
can they sign up to learn?

01:45:55.366 --> 01:45:55.786
Dr. Steven Peters: Sure.

01:45:55.886 --> 01:45:58.786
they can go to my website,
horsebrainscience.

01:46:00.156 --> 01:46:07.791
info And there'll be,  a schedule
of, of classes that I, I give.

01:46:07.831 --> 01:46:11.341
I also,  do a course called Equiscience.

01:46:12.251 --> 01:46:14.881
That's sort of the horse
human relationship with, a

01:46:14.881 --> 01:46:18.051
psychotherapist, Sarah Schlotty.

01:46:18.431 --> 01:46:18.861
Oh yes,

01:46:19.081 --> 01:46:19.881
Rupert Isaacson: she's very good.

01:46:20.901 --> 01:46:24.401
Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah, and
people can find that at Equiscience.

01:46:25.271 --> 01:46:25.921
Rupert Isaacson: com.

01:46:27.401 --> 01:46:28.901
Equiscience.

01:46:28.961 --> 01:46:30.001
com, all one word, yeah.

01:46:31.611 --> 01:46:35.831
Dr. Steven Peters: And you can be
really hopeful about this because People

01:46:35.831 --> 01:46:40.851
told me when I first started to talk
about this that, that it was above and

01:46:40.861 --> 01:46:42.871
too complicated for the lay person.

01:46:43.211 --> 01:46:45.391
And what I found is
exactly what you told me.

01:46:45.601 --> 01:46:47.791
People are hungry for this information.

01:46:48.111 --> 01:46:53.181
And I, my schedule is so busy
that I'm traveling everywhere

01:46:53.391 --> 01:46:55.951
giving these, these presentations.

01:46:56.091 --> 01:47:01.951
So I think that indeed we are, we're
in the midst of a paradigm shift.

01:47:02.366 --> 01:47:07.526
and, and a lot of these old rigid
programs will have to change just

01:47:07.526 --> 01:47:11.316
because of the outcomes and what
you see,  in the better results.

01:47:12.386 --> 01:47:15.986
Rupert Isaacson: Are you, are you writing
a, like a neuroscience for dummies book?

01:47:16.486 --> 01:47:21.176
Is there something that's specific to the
layman where this stuff, we can find this

01:47:21.176 --> 01:47:22.986
stuff and assimilate it in an easy way?

01:47:26.401 --> 01:47:29.441
Dr. Steven Peters: In my presentations,
that's pretty much what I try to do.

01:47:29.441 --> 01:47:32.861
I haven't, I've thought
of rewriting a book.

01:47:33.331 --> 01:47:38.141
but you know, people have gotten away
from, from reading, unfortunately,

01:47:38.571 --> 01:47:40.451
you know, it's a fast paced world.

01:47:40.451 --> 01:47:41.601
They want it on their phone.

01:47:41.611 --> 01:47:45.101
They want it in, in, in sound bites.

01:47:45.681 --> 01:47:49.141
And so I've had to find a different
media to get the message across

01:47:49.481 --> 01:47:52.771
because I think I almost limit
myself by, by writing a book.

01:47:54.381 --> 01:47:54.891
Yeah,

01:47:54.941 --> 01:47:57.591
Rupert Isaacson: I think there's
something in that or, or, or

01:47:58.761 --> 01:47:59.901
these days it gets more complex.

01:47:59.901 --> 01:48:01.131
One has to do all of it, right?

01:48:01.131 --> 01:48:02.871
You've got to write the book, you've
got to do the podcast, you've got

01:48:02.871 --> 01:48:06.181
to do the website, you've got to do
the, the app, you've got to do that.

01:48:06.541 --> 01:48:11.891
what, what I would be really interested
in looking at is, so we are, we are now,

01:48:11.991 --> 01:48:14.061
for example, in Ireland with Horseboy.

01:48:14.571 --> 01:48:18.611
and movement methods sort of now going
into the mainstream where we're getting

01:48:18.621 --> 01:48:22.291
government funding to bring this stuff
in because they're just finding that

01:48:22.291 --> 01:48:26.831
the outcomes are,  good enough that
it's, it's, it's saving the money.

01:48:27.621 --> 01:48:32.781
it means that, for example,  six foot
four blokes with autism who act out

01:48:32.781 --> 01:48:37.461
violently and need three minders, each
of which costs the government a hundred

01:48:37.461 --> 01:48:40.091
thousand a year get reduced to one.

01:48:40.601 --> 01:48:45.161
you know, and they see that number and
go, okay, well, we'll put, and as we

01:48:45.161 --> 01:48:49.941
train more and more people,  you know, we
do our little neuroscience bit, but I'm

01:48:49.941 --> 01:48:53.151
always thinking that, but there's more,
there's more, there's more, it would

01:48:53.161 --> 01:48:56.591
be very good if we could bring you in.

01:48:57.041 --> 01:48:58.571
but it needs to go beyond that.

01:48:58.571 --> 01:49:02.091
I'm thinking also the curatorium
for therapeutic writing in Germany.

01:49:02.691 --> 01:49:03.851
, they're, they're very open.

01:49:04.141 --> 01:49:06.631
and we should go.

01:49:08.296 --> 01:49:13.576
Present this to as many of these
bodies as we can without trying to

01:49:13.576 --> 01:49:16.466
sell them anything with the sort
of a basically take it or leave it.

01:49:16.476 --> 01:49:18.466
This will make it better.

01:49:20.576 --> 01:49:21.716
Don't take our word for it.

01:49:21.716 --> 01:49:27.206
But if you feel like going for it,
here it is in whatever form, because I

01:49:27.216 --> 01:49:30.436
think this is some of the most valuable
information I've I've heard in years.

01:49:30.826 --> 01:49:33.916
and to the point where I always know
when something is really useful, when

01:49:33.916 --> 01:49:38.866
I can draw a little diagram based on
what an expert is saying,  that means

01:49:38.866 --> 01:49:40.476
they're getting it across, right?

01:49:41.216 --> 01:49:42.906
You're not just going, Oh, what
was that word that they said?

01:49:42.906 --> 01:49:43.686
What was that thing?

01:49:43.976 --> 01:49:46.236
Your clarity of delivery is unusual.

01:49:47.566 --> 01:49:49.986
Which means it's helpful,
unusually helpful.

01:49:50.576 --> 01:49:57.956
where do you want, where do you want it
to all go in the next five to 10 years?

01:49:57.966 --> 01:49:59.906
You're looking at the equine industry.

01:50:00.096 --> 01:50:02.926
You're looking at vets, but you're
also looking at mental health.

01:50:03.206 --> 01:50:04.506
You yourself have autism.

01:50:05.036 --> 01:50:07.466
you're looking at all these kids
who are coming into the system.

01:50:08.296 --> 01:50:10.836
Where do you want, how do you
want this neuroscience to.

01:50:11.331 --> 01:50:11.571
Get a

01:50:11.571 --> 01:50:12.171
Dr. Steven Peters: simulator.

01:50:12.411 --> 01:50:18.021
No, I don't want to sort of practicing
outside of my scope because I don't

01:50:18.021 --> 01:50:22.161
think that that's just opinion and
not really based on the evidence

01:50:22.181 --> 01:50:24.821
based information that I know well.

01:50:25.361 --> 01:50:33.921
So, with humans, most of my, my background
was in the dementias and and, you

01:50:33.921 --> 01:50:36.681
know, deteriorating brain process, etc.

01:50:37.031 --> 01:50:39.331
So I don't have a clinical background.

01:50:39.831 --> 01:50:44.471
In autism, other than just
being on the spectrum myself.

01:50:44.481 --> 01:50:48.641
So that's the only,  in,  knowledge
base I have in terms of.

01:50:50.021 --> 01:50:51.121
of therapies.

01:50:51.491 --> 01:50:53.651
Rupert Isaacson: you've got to understand
how funny that sounds because basically

01:50:53.651 --> 01:50:57.541
what you just said is I've got no, I've
got no clinical,  knowledge of autism,

01:50:57.741 --> 01:51:00.911
and neuroscience other than the fact
that I'm an autistic neuroscientist.

01:51:02.321 --> 01:51:05.661
Dr. Steven Peters: It sounds ridiculous,
but you know, when you get up in front

01:51:05.661 --> 01:51:10.451
of a panel and they say, how many books
have you written on autism, you know,  is

01:51:10.461 --> 01:51:13.851
though that were the, were the measure.

01:51:14.481 --> 01:51:20.651
so I think I, I'm able to make the biggest
input, you know, I would like to see when

01:51:20.681 --> 01:51:24.751
somebody rides a rodeo horse, for example.

01:51:25.686 --> 01:51:29.956
That that horse can come
calmly into an arena and then.

01:51:30.391 --> 01:51:32.881
No, in through the communication.

01:51:32.881 --> 01:51:36.931
I just dial up my nervous system,
but I'm still feeling safe.

01:51:36.951 --> 01:51:38.541
I'm still hunting for that dopamine.

01:51:39.001 --> 01:51:40.121
I run my pattern.

01:51:40.461 --> 01:51:41.321
I'm finished.

01:51:41.561 --> 01:51:42.761
The writer gets off.

01:51:44.051 --> 01:51:45.211
I look and chew.

01:51:45.441 --> 01:51:47.701
Then I walk onto the
trailer and I go home.

01:51:48.341 --> 01:51:49.231
That can happen.

01:51:50.551 --> 01:51:53.941
You don't have to yank
the horse's mouth around.

01:51:54.191 --> 01:51:55.311
You don't have to spur the horse.

01:51:55.311 --> 01:51:58.821
In fact, most of the time that
horse is more worried about when

01:51:58.821 --> 01:52:00.211
the hammer is going to fall.

01:52:00.211 --> 01:52:00.251
Okay.

01:52:00.251 --> 01:52:00.266
Okay.

01:52:00.496 --> 01:52:04.456
than they are about concentrating
on what they need to do.

01:52:04.806 --> 01:52:13.476
And so I think our abuse of horses, and
I call it abuse, has become normalized

01:52:13.476 --> 01:52:14.866
just because we see it so often.

01:52:16.866 --> 01:52:18.666
And I'd like us to have a different lens.

01:52:19.226 --> 01:52:22.856
One that's more, gives
the horse a better deal.

01:52:23.736 --> 01:52:28.086
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and I'd say
that that brutalization of humans

01:52:29.446 --> 01:52:31.166
was normalized for the same reason.

01:52:31.176 --> 01:52:31.906
It was just...

01:52:32.596 --> 01:52:36.436
One saw it every day, you know, the school
system I went through, we were beaten.

01:52:36.966 --> 01:52:37.556
We just were.

01:52:38.006 --> 01:52:38.816
things are getting better.

01:52:39.486 --> 01:52:40.386
That's now illegal.

01:52:40.966 --> 01:52:46.146
but the harshness behind it, the
impatience, the what the Pink Floyd

01:52:46.146 --> 01:52:49.436
would call the dark sarcasm in
the classroom, all the stuff that

01:52:49.566 --> 01:52:51.236
activates your amygdala anyway.

01:52:52.086 --> 01:52:52.936
these things happen.

01:52:52.946 --> 01:52:56.176
These things change only slowly
unless someone like a Dr.

01:52:56.196 --> 01:52:59.376
Steve comes along and says, well,
actually, here's the neuroscience of it.

01:52:59.386 --> 01:52:59.656
So.

01:53:00.131 --> 01:53:01.241
it's not a culture thing.

01:53:01.271 --> 01:53:03.901
It's not, are you kind or not kind?

01:53:03.901 --> 01:53:05.591
It's just, this is how the brain works.

01:53:05.591 --> 01:53:07.031
If you do it like this,
it will happen like that.

01:53:07.031 --> 01:53:08.561
If you do it like this,
it will happen like that.

01:53:09.041 --> 01:53:12.801
so you say you don't want to be
outside of your area, but I think

01:53:12.841 --> 01:53:16.711
that anyone who's listening to this
right now,  let's say they're coming

01:53:16.711 --> 01:53:19.661
from a therapeutic writing context,
will find everything that you said

01:53:19.661 --> 01:53:22.781
massively helpful and take those tools.

01:53:24.166 --> 01:53:26.646
and add them to their toolbox.

01:53:27.426 --> 01:53:34.316
so I don't think you need to worry
about because it's not, we're not

01:53:34.316 --> 01:53:36.166
talking about an academic world here.

01:53:36.896 --> 01:53:38.846
it's more the world of the practitioners.

01:53:38.846 --> 01:53:42.836
I think the world of the
practitioners, the people who want

01:53:42.836 --> 01:53:44.406
to get the job done, want to get the

01:53:44.406 --> 01:53:44.806
Dr. Steven Peters: job done.

01:53:47.616 --> 01:53:50.706
Well, what I do love about my job is that.

01:53:52.271 --> 01:53:55.221
You know, it's, it's
evidence based information.

01:53:55.221 --> 01:53:57.941
So, you know, it's not my opinion.

01:53:58.701 --> 01:54:00.411
So people could dismiss that.

01:54:00.421 --> 01:54:01.891
Well, that's Steve Peter's opinion.

01:54:02.346 --> 01:54:06.156
But if I say the heart pumps
blood and somebody goes, well,

01:54:06.156 --> 01:54:07.456
that's just your opinion.

01:54:07.986 --> 01:54:10.266
I can say, well, no,
actually, that's a fact.

01:54:10.266 --> 01:54:11.556
And this is how it's supported.

01:54:11.556 --> 01:54:15.726
And this is how, how we know
that indeed that is a fact.

01:54:15.726 --> 01:54:17.876
And that's not my opinion.

01:54:17.876 --> 01:54:23.816
And so, yeah, my knowledge of brain
functioning over 3 decades of working.

01:54:24.271 --> 01:54:29.341
with, with brains, , does put me in
a place where I can say, no, that

01:54:29.921 --> 01:54:31.841
this is, this is evidence based.

01:54:32.331 --> 01:54:37.371
, and it's always a position of strength
because I try not to go into realms

01:54:37.421 --> 01:54:41.991
where I'm relying on, on my opinion.

01:54:42.481 --> 01:54:44.401
I'm, I'm really relying on, on

01:54:44.821 --> 01:54:44.901
Rupert Isaacson: fact.

01:54:46.241 --> 01:54:46.651
Okay.

01:54:46.651 --> 01:54:50.921
So we're approaching
the two hour mark here.

01:54:50.981 --> 01:54:56.081
And I think what this is, what's
really good about this is that.

01:54:58.126 --> 01:55:01.941
Let's say I was listening to this
and I and I was Making some notes.

01:55:02.031 --> 01:55:02.301
Okay.

01:55:02.301 --> 01:55:02.901
Dendrites.

01:55:02.901 --> 01:55:03.591
Axons.

01:55:04.261 --> 01:55:04.591
Okay.

01:55:04.861 --> 01:55:05.191
Go there.

01:55:05.191 --> 01:55:05.671
Activities.

01:55:05.671 --> 01:55:06.301
Let's get that.

01:55:07.281 --> 01:55:07.701
Noreen.

01:55:08.061 --> 01:55:08.661
Too much.

01:55:08.721 --> 01:55:09.381
Not good.

01:55:09.681 --> 01:55:12.081
Okay, so just enough for the beta.

01:55:12.081 --> 01:55:12.681
That's good.

01:55:13.041 --> 01:55:20.271
Then the pause and then the aesthetic,
, coline so that we can sleep on it and get

01:55:20.271 --> 01:55:22.071
those neural pathways going in a good way.

01:55:22.191 --> 01:55:24.061
This is really helpful.

01:55:24.211 --> 01:55:30.551
What else do we really need to know as
a kind of a neuroscience bottom line?

01:55:31.446 --> 01:55:33.766
About horse brain human brain.

01:55:35.456 --> 01:55:39.106
You need us to go away with that.

01:55:39.106 --> 01:55:41.871
We shouldn't Get off this chair

01:55:42.781 --> 01:55:47.331
Dr. Steven Peters: without knowing
what I would tell your listeners for the

01:55:47.331 --> 01:55:56.191
horse and the human is that your brain
is constantly rewiring and wiring itself.

01:55:56.571 --> 01:56:01.591
And so if you looked at it as though
you're a neurological gardener.

01:56:02.101 --> 01:56:06.081
And you have to create the
environment to grow the biggest

01:56:06.081 --> 01:56:08.661
dendritic forest that you can grow.

01:56:09.011 --> 01:56:12.551
And you only do that by understanding
the environment and understanding how to

01:56:12.551 --> 01:56:19.271
create a fertile ground in which that can
occur for both the human and the horse.

01:56:19.301 --> 01:56:21.161
And that may be different for each human.

01:56:21.161 --> 01:56:22.891
They may need different nutrients.

01:56:22.961 --> 01:56:27.691
They may be different attention, et
cetera, to produce that dendritic field.

01:56:27.861 --> 01:56:31.261
But we're all capable
of wiring our brains.

01:56:31.816 --> 01:56:33.126
our horse and us.

01:56:33.986 --> 01:56:39.586
And so providing that and looking at
yourself as the neuronal gardener.

01:56:41.236 --> 01:56:42.096
And if you are the

01:56:42.096 --> 01:56:47.306
Rupert Isaacson: neuronal gardener and,
or forester, and you're creating this,

01:56:47.636 --> 01:56:52.666
this forest in the horse, in yourself,
in your client,  it sounds like the

01:56:52.666 --> 01:56:58.166
creation of this dendritic forest or
garden comes down in many ways to play,

01:56:58.506 --> 01:56:59.176
Dr. Steven Peters: or am I wrong?

01:57:01.696 --> 01:57:06.536
That's a perfect environment because
then you're able to tolerate so

01:57:06.616 --> 01:57:09.026
much more in a safe environment.

01:57:09.426 --> 01:57:09.826
Yeah.

01:57:09.866 --> 01:57:15.326
And, and the result of play is
huge dopamine hits and curiosity.

01:57:15.966 --> 01:57:20.606
And,  yeah, it's, it's a safe environment
and movement is often involved.

01:57:21.201 --> 01:57:28.641
So that's a very creative way
of, of creating this, this new

01:57:29.401 --> 01:57:33.731
dendritic force animals that aren't
safe enough to play that aren't

01:57:33.731 --> 01:57:39.091
comfortable in their environments
that are isolated in isolation.

01:57:39.586 --> 01:57:41.866
is the second biggest stressor for horses.

01:57:41.866 --> 01:57:44.656
Restraint is one, isolation is another.

01:57:44.916 --> 01:57:46.076
They need contact.

01:57:46.316 --> 01:57:49.656
Nervous systems need other
nervous systems to thrive.

01:57:50.476 --> 01:57:51.056
That's what, so

01:57:51.336 --> 01:57:52.296
Rupert Isaacson: they're
much later, right?

01:57:52.356 --> 01:57:53.586
Co regulation is that?

01:57:54.596 --> 01:57:55.116
Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah.

01:57:55.166 --> 01:57:55.616
Yeah.

01:57:57.286 --> 01:58:02.206
But more than that, I mean, you're,
you're, you're oxytocin deprived

01:58:02.616 --> 01:58:07.146
if you don't have interaction
in touch with other animals.

01:58:08.076 --> 01:58:08.476
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:58:08.476 --> 01:58:12.476
So, so one of the things
which, . I often do when I'm going

01:58:12.486 --> 01:58:13.896
around doing dressage clinics.

01:58:14.246 --> 01:58:15.966
that's one of my other lives, right?

01:58:16.266 --> 01:58:22.976
Is, I've learned now that when the
horse comes in to the arena snorting and

01:58:23.906 --> 01:58:26.946
fire breathing dragon y and basically
they've just got off the trailer in this

01:58:26.966 --> 01:58:28.286
new place and they're all freaked out.

01:58:29.196 --> 01:58:32.866
what I've started to do now is say,
actually chaps, let's just pull

01:58:32.866 --> 01:58:35.186
the saddle off and let him play.

01:58:35.761 --> 01:58:36.621
Let's let him play.

01:58:36.891 --> 01:58:39.601
If you feel that he can play
safely with another horse, let's

01:58:39.621 --> 01:58:40.751
have him play with another horse.

01:58:41.131 --> 01:58:44.231
if you brought another horse with you,
for example, and they know each other,

01:58:44.641 --> 01:58:50.501
if not, let's interact with the horse
and we'll know when that horse is

01:58:50.501 --> 01:58:52.371
ready to receive information from us.

01:58:52.881 --> 01:58:56.201
But if we don't give him a bit of crazy
time and a bit of fun, and then a bit of

01:58:56.201 --> 01:59:00.971
exploration time, frankly, they're just
not going to take in any information.

01:59:00.971 --> 01:59:01.751
It's just not worth it.

01:59:01.791 --> 01:59:06.181
And I took the, the, the, the leap of
saying this to people who were, you

01:59:06.181 --> 01:59:08.301
know, proper, proper Grand Prix riders.

01:59:08.621 --> 01:59:11.621
And it, it made a massive difference.

01:59:11.641 --> 01:59:16.841
And what I realized was, you know, cause
I went to a lot of,  horse seminars

01:59:16.841 --> 01:59:20.841
and so on, I had a lot of people,
particularly from the Western USA saying.

01:59:21.306 --> 01:59:25.236
Oh, well, you know, if you don't keep your
horses in herds in big pastures, you're

01:59:25.236 --> 01:59:29.546
an arsehole and I was thinking yeah,
but Unfortunately, that's just shaming

01:59:29.546 --> 01:59:36.476
people who have no option but to keep
their horses in suburban,  Riding clubs or

01:59:36.946 --> 01:59:41.306
boarding stables where they have no choice
because they're being run by somebody

01:59:41.336 --> 01:59:44.966
else Who's doing it with the horses
in boxes and blah blah blah blah blah.

01:59:45.146 --> 01:59:50.256
So they just go away feeling shit
with no solution to their problems.

01:59:50.276 --> 01:59:52.336
So then I started thinking,
okay, well, what's the solution?

01:59:52.696 --> 01:59:56.646
The solution is getting horses to play
together in herds at the very least.

01:59:57.026 --> 02:00:00.526
So you open up the covered arena, do
some free jumping, have them mill around,

02:00:01.686 --> 02:00:05.016
change the playground for them every
couple of minutes, let them enjoy it.

02:00:05.016 --> 02:00:08.106
And we found that this really
worked well in those environments.

02:00:08.296 --> 02:00:09.296
You had to integrate them.

02:00:10.081 --> 02:00:15.251
Obviously say, you know, they were safe
with each other, but that it came so much

02:00:15.251 --> 02:00:20.521
down, as you say, to social time and play,
but that one couldn't go and say to people

02:00:20.811 --> 02:00:23.151
are you can't control your environment.

02:00:23.636 --> 02:00:27.526
So therefore, and, and, and the
option of having a ranch in Montana

02:00:27.696 --> 02:00:29.456
or Colorado is not there for you.

02:00:29.726 --> 02:00:31.686
Therefore, you shouldn't
keep horses at all.

02:00:32.336 --> 02:00:35.876
That just makes people sad
and depressed and, and doesn't

02:00:35.886 --> 02:00:37.686
give them practical solutions.

02:00:38.026 --> 02:00:43.006
But what's really nice is if, if,
if then they want to create this...

02:00:43.321 --> 02:00:46.981
Social time and crazy time for their
horses and they go to the barn owner

02:00:46.981 --> 02:00:50.551
and the barn owner says well No, I don't
want to do that if they can produce the

02:00:50.551 --> 02:00:53.731
kind of neuroscience that you've just
come up with and say well Actually,

02:00:53.731 --> 02:00:55.331
this makes it safer for everybody.

02:00:55.711 --> 02:00:59.051
This makes it safer for your people
who are mucking out the boxes This

02:00:59.051 --> 02:01:03.981
makes it safer for you the barn owner
because the horses have fewer accidents

02:01:03.981 --> 02:01:08.021
because they freak out less and they
don't stand there kicking the walls

02:01:08.021 --> 02:01:13.681
or get their feet hung up and Rafters,
because they're all freaked out and

02:01:13.681 --> 02:01:16.891
rearing up in the box and all the stuff
that happens, , in those environments.

02:01:17.271 --> 02:01:20.401
It, it seems to always come
down to the neuroscience.

02:01:20.501 --> 02:01:25.531
if, so if you say you're a gardener
trying to, or a forester trying

02:01:25.551 --> 02:01:30.321
to create the biggest dendritic
forest that you can, I love that.

02:01:31.251 --> 02:01:34.871
In the most fertile soil that you can.

02:01:35.636 --> 02:01:38.746
Okay, if the dendritic pathways are
coming through this exploration and

02:01:38.746 --> 02:01:43.296
play, how are we creating that soil?

02:01:46.086 --> 02:01:49.326
How are we creating the soil
for those dendrites to grow out

02:01:49.326 --> 02:01:49.546
Dr. Steven Peters: of?

02:01:53.101 --> 02:01:58.111
Well, in that condition that you
talked about a stall, a box stall,

02:01:58.111 --> 02:02:02.721
even if it's made out of mahogany
is a sensory deprivation box.

02:02:02.931 --> 02:02:07.941
And we know any mammal put in that type
of environment, especially a herd animal,

02:02:08.201 --> 02:02:09.971
you're going to be pruning back dendrites.

02:02:10.011 --> 02:02:11.661
That brain is going to weigh less.

02:02:11.996 --> 02:02:15.216
In a brain that can interact with
other horses, you could say, well,

02:02:15.896 --> 02:02:21.176
well, I can't do that because of,  the
confines of a small environment.

02:02:21.406 --> 02:02:26.876
I think in the future, because the
research is so robust in this area that

02:02:26.876 --> 02:02:31.276
it's just not healthy psychologically
and emotionally to be isolating

02:02:31.316 --> 02:02:32.996
horses and putting them in stalls.

02:02:34.316 --> 02:02:38.426
You know, all of those, those, the
way that they cope with that with.

02:02:38.751 --> 02:02:42.561
You know, wind sucking and cribbing,
et cetera, are the result of

02:02:42.901 --> 02:02:44.491
they lower their cortisol level.

02:02:45.201 --> 02:02:49.481
They're, they're not, , they don't have,
it's not that they don't have any purpose.

02:02:49.481 --> 02:02:54.551
They have a good purpose and helping
animals stay self regulated emotionally.

02:02:55.571 --> 02:02:59.451
But I think people are going to
learn to landscape a little better,

02:02:59.871 --> 02:03:04.551
and they're going to find a track
system, maybe even one acre of land.

02:03:04.561 --> 02:03:09.691
I've seen this in San Diego, small little
outcropping with a little hillside.

02:03:10.081 --> 02:03:16.626
And then there's a track along the
outside of the The property where hay is

02:03:16.636 --> 02:03:20.536
placed in certain areas and somebody's
put down some P gravel for their hooves.

02:03:20.846 --> 02:03:24.466
Somebody else has created a little
water hole that they can congregate at.

02:03:24.866 --> 02:03:29.706
And I would argue that getting
when people say, well, my horse

02:03:29.706 --> 02:03:31.136
will get hurt with other horses.

02:03:31.576 --> 02:03:36.026
I would argue that that physical
losing a little hide doesn't really

02:03:36.026 --> 02:03:40.996
weigh well with the psychological
and emotional comfort that horses

02:03:41.016 --> 02:03:43.196
get in their, in their interaction.

02:03:43.566 --> 02:03:49.356
And in terms of brain growth, that
soil needs to have some sort of.

02:03:50.661 --> 02:03:53.721
interaction, we all need
interaction with each other.

02:03:53.971 --> 02:03:57.221
So we may have to be
creative and how we do that.

02:03:57.431 --> 02:04:02.861
But just not addressing the
issue and putting them in

02:04:02.861 --> 02:04:05.291
isolating them isn't an answer.

02:04:05.941 --> 02:04:10.791
Rupert Isaacson: So, so, so prioritizing
it as a prioritizing that social

02:04:10.791 --> 02:04:17.481
time and saying Okay, because we
need these dendrites,  before we can

02:04:17.481 --> 02:04:21.951
think about anything at all,  we've
got to re jig our environment.

02:04:22.041 --> 02:04:29.461
So, If we are indeed in a, in a, in
a, in a limited space, so the horses

02:04:29.491 --> 02:04:32.941
are, or you've just the barn owner,
there you are, you've got a stable and

02:04:32.941 --> 02:04:35.551
there are stalls, and that's just the
environment that you've either bought

02:04:35.581 --> 02:04:38.401
or inherited or whatever, there it is.

02:04:39.281 --> 02:04:44.741
Can we then say, all right,
what do we do to optimize this?

02:04:45.081 --> 02:04:49.721
How can we give the horses the maximum
opportunity to go and socialize?

02:04:51.001 --> 02:04:52.951
without it just feeling
like a prison yard, right?

02:04:53.571 --> 02:04:57.361
so, so for example,  if, if you put
in those tracks that you're talking

02:04:57.361 --> 02:05:05.491
about and the horse goes back to the
box, is that bet, is that better than

02:05:05.491 --> 02:05:06.941
if the horse doesn't get that at all?

02:05:07.221 --> 02:05:11.661
Or is it that we should,
if possible, learn that

02:05:12.141 --> 02:05:12.621
Dr. Steven Peters: that's
where they get that.

02:05:15.111 --> 02:05:18.751
Oftentimes, if they learn where they
that's where they've gotten fed that

02:05:18.851 --> 02:05:22.941
that's where they don't have to work,
they may gravitate back to that.

02:05:22.941 --> 02:05:25.701
But we learned this lesson in in zoos.

02:05:26.121 --> 02:05:31.251
When I was a child, we'd go to zoos and
then small cages, small boxes, they'd have

02:05:31.251 --> 02:05:34.751
animals, they pace, they bite at things.

02:05:35.156 --> 02:05:36.336
they never thrived.

02:05:36.936 --> 02:05:42.666
And once zoos became enlightened and the
closer they could replicate a natural

02:05:42.726 --> 02:05:48.956
habitat, natural environment for that
animal, then they hit on the, and so then

02:05:48.956 --> 02:05:54.796
it became monorails that came over the zoo
and look down on animals in a big field.

02:05:55.386 --> 02:05:58.106
And you may not have that much land.

02:05:58.601 --> 02:06:04.941
But I think it behooves us to be
creative and understand the closer I

02:06:04.941 --> 02:06:10.531
can replicate a natural environment,
the better my animals going to thrive.

02:06:10.901 --> 02:06:11.191
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

02:06:11.731 --> 02:06:12.831
You know, I'm thinking, I mean,

02:06:12.861 --> 02:06:13.351
Dr. Steven Peters: those mustangs.

02:06:14.371 --> 02:06:14.751
Go ahead.

02:06:16.141 --> 02:06:20.371
I was just going to say, you know,
sometimes we get egotistical that we

02:06:20.371 --> 02:06:26.031
have to teach the horse everything,
you know, there are mustangs out in the

02:06:26.031 --> 02:06:29.721
wild that aren't just standing still
saying, I hope some human comes along

02:06:29.721 --> 02:06:34.791
and teaches me to trot and teaches
me how to find the waterhole, etc.

02:06:35.111 --> 02:06:36.751
You know, they're probably filled with.

02:06:37.141 --> 02:06:41.601
with dendrites because they have
that, that environment and you

02:06:41.601 --> 02:06:46.591
know, they have good hoof health
and et cetera, et cetera, on and on.

02:06:47.021 --> 02:06:53.831
So I'm not saying, you know, let
your horses all run free, but I am

02:06:53.831 --> 02:06:58.921
saying that, that, , from a brain
standpoint and brain health and from

02:06:58.921 --> 02:07:04.871
a wellness standpoint, I'm thinking
about how can I create that fertile

02:07:04.881 --> 02:07:06.721
ground and that fertile ground being.

02:07:07.206 --> 02:07:11.716
As close to a natural habitat as
I can get if they can forage, you

02:07:11.716 --> 02:07:15.636
know, that's much better than highly
processed grains that just go right

02:07:15.636 --> 02:07:18.986
through them, filling them full of
sugar and sticking them in a stall.

02:07:18.996 --> 02:07:21.186
It's not good for a human or a horse.

02:07:22.436 --> 02:07:23.816
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, absolutely.

02:07:23.856 --> 02:07:29.206
And one of the things which is
interesting in that the, the, the urban

02:07:29.206 --> 02:07:32.496
environment of horse keeping,  where
horses, of course, were in stores.

02:07:35.656 --> 02:07:40.416
one forgot was that the horse was outside
working all day constantly moving,

02:07:40.416 --> 02:07:46.116
moving, moving, moving, moving,  often in
conjunction with a herd because they, they

02:07:46.116 --> 02:07:47.826
were groups of them doing things together.

02:07:47.826 --> 02:07:49.646
They might be being driven in a team.

02:07:49.936 --> 02:07:52.276
They might be,  working
in a cavalry regiment.

02:07:52.276 --> 02:07:54.666
They might be this, they might
be that, but in general and all

02:07:54.666 --> 02:07:57.136
sorts of human contact, constant,
constant, constant, constant.

02:07:57.716 --> 02:08:02.296
And then going back into a store
after moving all day, just to

02:08:02.296 --> 02:08:04.226
kind of chill is very different.

02:08:04.681 --> 02:08:08.221
To standing in a box for 23 hours,
waiting for your owner, who's got a

02:08:08.221 --> 02:08:12.341
job and a family to come and ride you
for one hour in the arena, get upset

02:08:12.711 --> 02:08:17.501
that you can't concentrate and then put
you back in that isolation box again.

02:08:17.551 --> 02:08:18.151
And, and.

02:08:18.501 --> 02:08:22.561
Cavalry,  schools, you know, which
again would always have the horses in

02:08:22.561 --> 02:08:24.681
the boxes until they went on campaign.

02:08:25.471 --> 02:08:28.871
And then of course, when they went
on campaign, they were in the field.

02:08:29.361 --> 02:08:32.191
so I think what, what, what's
happened is we've lost.

02:08:32.831 --> 02:08:35.941
the context of, of, of these things.

02:08:36.041 --> 02:08:41.201
and we, I see it almost less as
a, as a problem of the way we keep

02:08:41.201 --> 02:08:45.901
horses as the way in which we're
trying to make horses conform.

02:08:46.726 --> 02:08:52.026
To a modern paradigm of human life
that horse human interaction wasn't

02:08:52.036 --> 02:08:57.466
really ever created for And then how
but then I find it quite intriguing.

02:08:57.466 --> 02:08:59.396
How do we find solutions to that problem?

02:08:59.666 --> 02:09:03.506
For example group play
in the covered arena?

02:09:05.966 --> 02:09:12.606
Yeah, but it's interesting I now do
this as a as a as a prerequisite for

02:09:12.606 --> 02:09:17.286
any of my clients in the stable where
we're based out of in Germany, because

02:09:17.476 --> 02:09:20.456
they are indeed in boxes, but they're
actually out in the fields in the day.

02:09:21.516 --> 02:09:22.416
that's how it's done.

02:09:22.416 --> 02:09:26.106
So I say to all my people, get
them playing together, playing

02:09:26.106 --> 02:09:26.816
together, playing together.

02:09:26.816 --> 02:09:30.886
And we set up, I set them up into
groups and anyone who won't do this.

02:09:31.736 --> 02:09:35.276
I say, well, I can't really have you as a
client because I just know that I'm going

02:09:35.276 --> 02:09:40.086
to be dealing with an unhappy horse that
as soon as you're ready to integrate your

02:09:40.086 --> 02:09:43.676
horse into that herd for some playtime,
some crazy time, come back and talk to me.

02:09:43.956 --> 02:09:45.276
I do understand that you have a job.

02:09:45.276 --> 02:09:46.866
I do understand that you have a baby.

02:09:46.866 --> 02:09:49.396
I do understand that you'll
have time constraints.

02:09:51.416 --> 02:09:57.156
But as you say, let's replicate as
closely as we can to the original.

02:09:59.196 --> 02:10:00.676
Dr. Steven Peters: I know
exactly what you're saying.

02:10:01.296 --> 02:10:05.346
Martin Black and I, we do a colt
starting every year in October, and

02:10:05.796 --> 02:10:07.706
we don't keep a horse in isolation.

02:10:07.926 --> 02:10:09.976
Four horses are started together.

02:10:12.541 --> 02:10:15.751
Yeah, and so that actually
creates the sense of safety.

02:10:15.751 --> 02:10:18.071
There's movement together, et cetera.

02:10:18.271 --> 02:10:20.991
And, and it more than pays off.

02:10:21.281 --> 02:10:23.761
because you work with 1 and
then you get a pause because you

02:10:23.761 --> 02:10:24.631
have to work with the others.

02:10:24.641 --> 02:10:24.891
So the.

02:10:25.241 --> 02:10:31.071
The pause is, is built into the whole
process, and yet you can use the herd and

02:10:31.071 --> 02:10:36.781
all that serotonin and oxytocin in your
favor, and it truly makes a difference.

02:10:37.081 --> 02:10:37.251
Yeah,

02:10:37.251 --> 02:10:38.261
Rupert Isaacson: plus the visual learning.

02:10:38.261 --> 02:10:39.411
I mean, they watch each other, right?

02:10:39.441 --> 02:10:40.611
They learn from each other.

02:10:41.271 --> 02:10:44.561
, so much of, , what's forgotten
with horses, as you know,

02:10:44.561 --> 02:10:48.271
is, ... Where did, where did horse
domestication and training start?

02:10:48.271 --> 02:10:50.371
Starts in Central Asia with who?

02:10:50.741 --> 02:10:51.471
With tribes.

02:10:51.611 --> 02:10:52.481
Well, what's a tribe.

02:10:52.761 --> 02:10:57.331
A tribe is a group of people out there
living in tents, constantly interacting

02:10:57.331 --> 02:10:58.991
as clans and extended families.

02:10:59.551 --> 02:11:04.581
What are horses, herd animals, constantly
interacting in clans and, and, and you

02:11:04.581 --> 02:11:06.221
put those two things together and you get.

02:11:07.141 --> 02:11:08.051
Equestrian culture.

02:11:10.281 --> 02:11:12.441
And then it's pretty functional.

02:11:12.941 --> 02:11:16.171
because it's, it's obeying the
rules of the fact that we're both

02:11:16.171 --> 02:11:17.761
heard animals really effectively.

02:11:18.181 --> 02:11:23.601
and now suddenly with the cult of
the individual, we've broken that.

02:11:23.901 --> 02:11:26.501
and we wonder why we're
running into some problems.

02:11:27.251 --> 02:11:31.191
but when you come along and explain
it, particularly in the, in the,

02:11:31.521 --> 02:11:33.531
even if we just bring the whole
thing back to dendrites, Okay.

02:11:36.241 --> 02:11:40.221
And say, fewer dendrites, more
problems for you and your horse.

02:11:41.011 --> 02:11:41.781
More dendrites.

02:11:43.591 --> 02:11:43.871
Better.

02:11:43.871 --> 02:11:44.561
Everything's going to go.

02:11:44.591 --> 02:11:47.041
Which one do you want shit or good?

02:11:47.651 --> 02:11:49.061
Then let's go for some dendrites.

02:11:49.201 --> 02:11:51.151
You know, that's

02:11:51.161 --> 02:11:52.251
Dr. Steven Peters: how
we use your flowers.

02:11:52.981 --> 02:11:53.271
Yeah.

02:11:55.831 --> 02:11:58.871
you know, Rupert, I think you and
I in conversation could probably

02:11:58.871 --> 02:12:02.501
spend an entire day bouncing
these things back and forth.

02:12:02.941 --> 02:12:05.891
So maybe you'll invite me
and we'll try this again.

02:12:06.111 --> 02:12:06.581
I would love

02:12:06.581 --> 02:12:06.811
Rupert Isaacson: to.

02:12:06.941 --> 02:12:10.071
And if you want more than that,
what I'd like to do is I'm going to

02:12:10.071 --> 02:12:11.241
throw this open to the listeners.

02:12:11.241 --> 02:12:11.551
Okay.

02:12:11.551 --> 02:12:11.881
Listeners.

02:12:11.881 --> 02:12:12.281
Hello.

02:12:13.211 --> 02:12:14.621
You're going to have questions for Dr.

02:12:14.621 --> 02:12:14.861
Steve.

02:12:15.286 --> 02:12:16.526
Email them to me.

02:12:17.566 --> 02:12:21.216
I'm going to ask Dr Steve to come back
on and we're going to answer those

02:12:21.216 --> 02:12:26.306
questions because then those questions
are going to, and if you are coming from

02:12:26.666 --> 02:12:30.216
a suburban horse environment where you
have limited space, please don't think

02:12:30.216 --> 02:12:31.556
that you're not part of this conversation.

02:12:31.616 --> 02:12:37.386
Ask Dr Steve for the,  the solutions to
get those dendrites going in your horses.

02:12:37.406 --> 02:12:39.246
Let's, let's get this conversation moving.

02:12:40.851 --> 02:12:42.031
Dr. Steven Peters: Let's discuss it.

02:12:42.151 --> 02:12:43.851
Let's be creative together.

02:12:44.311 --> 02:12:46.091
Let's figure these things out.

02:12:46.161 --> 02:12:47.961
So yeah, I'd invite your listeners.

02:12:48.481 --> 02:12:49.741
Everybody's included.

02:12:49.981 --> 02:12:52.791
The umbrella of brain functioning is huge.

02:12:53.161 --> 02:12:58.091
It exceeds all disciplines
and all environments.

02:12:58.451 --> 02:13:02.941
You know, they're, we're talking
about brains, so everybody's invited.

02:13:04.191 --> 02:13:04.521
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

02:13:04.541 --> 02:13:07.541
So listen, let's just go
through the resources again.

02:13:07.811 --> 02:13:11.361
Tell us,  the titles of your books so
that people will want, they'll want those.

02:13:11.796 --> 02:13:15.166
what, what, what should they be ordering
from Amazon if they want to read yourself?

02:13:17.526 --> 02:13:19.456
Dr. Steven Peters: Okay, you
can go to Amazon and you can

02:13:19.456 --> 02:13:21.346
read evidence based horsemanship.

02:13:21.986 --> 02:13:27.216
That's the book that martin black and
I wrote and we purposely,  spent a lot

02:13:27.216 --> 02:13:29.986
of time trying to make it available.

02:13:30.481 --> 02:13:33.651
or make it accessible to
as many people as possible.

02:13:34.001 --> 02:13:36.831
There's jargon in there,
but there's also a glossary.

02:13:37.251 --> 02:13:39.381
It's not a huge academic tome.

02:13:39.381 --> 02:13:43.461
It's about 100 pages,  and there
are a lot of illustrations.

02:13:43.471 --> 02:13:47.511
So evidence based horsemanship,
you can get that on Amazon.

02:13:48.221 --> 02:13:51.781
you can come, you can go to
my website, horsebrainscience.

02:13:53.431 --> 02:13:54.101
info.

02:13:55.191 --> 02:13:56.361
You can also look up.

02:13:57.521 --> 02:13:58.581
Equiscience.

02:13:58.671 --> 02:14:06.241
com and look at the courses that,  Sarah
Schulte and I are doing together and

02:14:06.241 --> 02:14:07.601
that'll give you a pretty good start.

02:14:08.021 --> 02:14:08.781
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

02:14:09.171 --> 02:14:09.581
All right.

02:14:11.121 --> 02:14:12.321
We're all going to go off and do that.

02:14:13.091 --> 02:14:15.671
And then we're going to ask you
to come back on in a little while

02:14:16.361 --> 02:14:21.281
and answer the questions that the
dendrites,  in our brain are going to

02:14:21.281 --> 02:14:22.981
come up with,  having been stimulated.

02:14:23.821 --> 02:14:24.271
today.

02:14:24.551 --> 02:14:26.421
thank you so, so much, Dr.

02:14:26.421 --> 02:14:27.321
Steve, for coming

02:14:27.321 --> 02:14:27.501
Dr. Steven Peters: on.

02:14:27.591 --> 02:14:28.661
Oh, it's been a pleasure.

02:14:28.671 --> 02:14:30.651
I really enjoyed,  our discussion.

02:14:31.091 --> 02:14:32.381
Rupert Isaacson: Massively, massively.

02:14:32.671 --> 02:14:33.331
I'm going to bed.

02:14:33.361 --> 02:14:37.941
I'm going to go take my, my pause
now and go, , bed down with, , see.

02:14:38.031 --> 02:14:38.251
Yeah.

02:14:38.251 --> 02:14:40.281
Dr. Steven Peters: Let the
acetylcholine do its work now.

02:14:40.561 --> 02:14:40.891
Yeah.

02:14:40.911 --> 02:14:41.401
The acetylcholine.

02:14:41.711 --> 02:14:45.011
Have your glass of wine, relax,
and let your brain Now, , do

02:14:45.011 --> 02:14:46.451
what it needs to do get a little

02:14:46.451 --> 02:14:47.281
Rupert Isaacson: white matter going.

02:14:47.291 --> 02:14:51.341
All right, I will I will see you
on the next one Thank you so much.

02:14:51.371 --> 02:14:52.951
I'm very grateful.

02:14:53.671 --> 02:14:53.951
Dr. Steven Peters: Be well.

02:14:54.029 --> 02:14:55.139
Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us.

02:14:55.169 --> 02:14:56.999
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

02:14:57.238 --> 02:15:02.278
Join our website, new trails
learning.com, to  check out our online

02:15:02.278 --> 02:15:07.468
courses and live workshops in Horse Boy
Method, movement Method, and Athena.

02:15:08.175 --> 02:15:12.824
These evidence-based programs have
helped children, veterans, and people

02:15:12.824 --> 02:15:14.834
dealing with trauma around the world.

02:15:15.161 --> 02:15:18.911
We also offer a horse training
program and self-care program

02:15:18.911 --> 02:15:22.151
for riders on long ride home.com.

02:15:22.449 --> 02:15:26.499
These include easy to do online
courses and tutorials that

02:15:26.499 --> 02:15:28.419
bring you and your horse joy.

02:15:28.956 --> 02:15:33.516
For an overview of all shows and
programs, go to rupert isaacson.com.

02:15:33.846 --> 02:15:34.776
See you on the next show.

02:15:35.188 --> 02:15:37.878
And please remember to
press, subscribe and share.