Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a few crusty sign
guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit conversations
and advice on pricing, sales, marketing, workflow, growth, and more.
You're listening to the better sign shop podcast with your hosts, Peter Kourounis,
Michael Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.
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Hi guys, welcome back to the next episode of the Better Sign Shop Podcast.
I'm your host, Brian Gillespie.
Uh, my two co hosts, Michael and Peter are not here at the moment.
So I figured I would go ahead and kick this one off.
Um, if you're watching the video feed, you'll see this amazing mustache.
Uh, yesterday was Halloween and I had to commit fully to my, uh, costume.
My wife dressed up as Taylor Swift.
I was, of course.
Uh, Travis Kelsey, uh, if you know me, you know, I'm the furthest thing
from an NFL football player, but, um, anyway, you got to go all in sometimes.
Uh, today we've got a, another special guest with us.
I really excited about this episode.
All right, guys, we are back with our special guest for today.
Mr.
Evan Zebley, Evan.
Nice to have you on the podcast.
Thanks.
Nice
to be here.
I originally reached out to you several months ago, maybe half a
year at this point, because I saw that you were posting a lot of really
cool videos of like sign installs and stuff that you were doing for clients.
Um, I thought it would be a great story to have you on and
interview you about that, but.
In that time, I think you've had a lot of changes going on professionally, so,
uh, maybe you want to jump in and just give us some of your backstory and tell
us about your journey in the industry.
Sure.
I mean, uh, it's, I guess the truncated version, cause it's pretty eventful.
I guess if anybody ever.
Feels like they're not sure they're doing the right thing.
Uh, and they're comparing themselves to old systems, which are, you
know, the classic, you go into a job, you work it for 30 years,
you stay loyal to that company.
I get that.
And that's commendable.
That was not the path for me.
Uh, the last 10 years in the sign business, the only way that I've.
Been able to really move up as they've been to move out.
And that's what I've been doing year by year.
So I've had the great opportunity, uh, every year that as I grow a market to
then ask my employer, Hey, are we ready to take my income to the next level?
When they say no, I'm like, all right, that's cool.
I'm going to go on to the next thing though.
And, uh, just keep going until now that's culminated in.
I have to have my own shop.
So that just started two months ago is the first time in about 10 years that
I've felt comfortable saying, you know what, I've got a good customer base.
I understand all the ins and outs of everything with this business.
I'm fine.
Just cold going out on my own.
Um, and it has been, I mean, we're at, uh, we're in the middle of week nine now.
And the great parts are I've been able to pay myself every week, which is a bonus.
Uh, you know, there's money in the bank.
And then all that really comes from, like you said, it's got
to do with the market share.
So, you know, there's many, many great crafters out there.
They're good at their job.
They know what to do.
They can provide you an excellent product that will work for your, your need.
Uh, but.
Everybody's not marketing that.
And so the, I would attribute the whole reason of why I'm able to go out
on my own is to just me having market share for people, knowing my face,
knowing me personally in my market.
Gotcha.
So you kind of built your own brand.
If we, if we back up a little bit, like how did you get
your start in the industry?
Or back up quite a bit, I guess, potentially, you know, I think
you said you've been in the industry at least 10 years now.
Yeah, it's been about 10 years.
Um, so I was, uh, before I got into anything to do with media, I was
actually managing restaurants and bars.
So I was very much into that life where it's, you know, I'm peddling booze
pretty much and making good money.
You know, it's, And it's a fun time, uh, but I wanted to have a
family and it's not really conducive to having good family time.
You know, close down the bar at four in the morning and then take the
kid to the soccer game at eight.
Doesn't really work that great.
So I was like, I got to do something different.
I had an opportunity to go work for a newsprint publisher, which, uh,
if you want to learn about deadlines and working fast and hard like
that, that was definitely it, um, I was the narrow point of the funnel
when it came to production design.
And so.
Every ad that was in every newspaper, every magazine, every
book that all went across my desk.
Um, and I think I was working that job for about a year and a
half when my sister called me.
And my sister was working for a farmer in South Georgia that had
a sign shop in his farmhouse.
And she said, Evan, you know, the guy I'm working for says he's tired of signs.
He wants to sell all the equipment and the book of business to us for 10, 000.
Do you Want to get into the sign business with me.
And I was like, well, I guess I think I could be good at being my own boss.
Like, all right, let's, let's try it.
So, uh, she lived in South Georgia.
I was in kind of North Georgia at the time and moved down there to South Georgia.
And I remember week one, it was like, we've got.
You know, the business is already operating.
So we got jobs rolling and, uh, I was like, okay, we got this banner order.
I don't even really know what a banner is.
I don't, certainly don't know how to print it or like what this big machine is.
Like, I don't know anything about this.
And my sister's like, well, that's cool, but I have to have a baby right now.
So I'm going to go.
And so she, she was pregnant with, uh, with my niece at the time.
And, um, anyway, like the switcheroo, it was literally like, okay, figure this out.
And I remember it's, I remember the model, you know, we were running a Roland S 500,
V and, uh, it's a solvent inkjet printer.
And of course the smell of it, all of that, I figured out, you know,
okay, this is how you load media.
This is how you use VersaWorks.
Okay.
I'm printing.
Oh, but I'm getting these lines on the print.
I don't know what to do.
And I, oh, there's gotta be something.
And the only solution I could figure out at the time was to sit there and hold.
The banner as it was coming out.
So I was sitting there manually taking up about 150 linear feet of banner, just
hoping because, you know, it's, it's the sign that they need it tomorrow.
It's the sign business.
Um.
And that was my for me,
for me, I don't mean to stop you there, Evan, but I love that you said that just
shows how like really into this business.
You really are because only a true person in the signage where you
could say something like that and know that I have legit experience.
It's legit.
Like you have, you have been in the trenches, you know, for me,
it was crumpled up pieces of tape.
A blue painter's tape like put underneath the vinyl so that it like comes out
straighter and then those those little like harbor freight squeeze clamps that
you could like put on it so that it keeps it taut and wait you know I mean like
it's that's so funny that you've been there and I haven't heard too many of
my clients or anybody that I've worked with like say that so I know now exactly
who I'm talking to.
Oh man, I gotta, I gotta tell you that, um, that, that began, you
know, the, the whole sign journey.
Right.
And, and of course, like I said, we're working out of a pole barn, which we
had, I think we started in November.
He gave us until January to move out.
Um, so found a little 1500 square foot spot in a strip mall.
And, uh, and I remember nobody was available to help me on move weekend.
So it was just me.
Moving everything and getting the new shop set up.
And I mean, I did it, of course I did it because come Monday we have to get back
to work, so I couldn't just not do it.
Um, but yeah, that relationship with that Roland, the Roland was a great printer.
I will say that I learned how to take.
Every safety feature off of it, how to get it completely taken apart.
Like it was like the most manual printer since like a
Heidelberg press or something.
Like if you weren't watching it and it didn't have media, it was just
going to like spew ink on the floor.
Like I needed it to work, you know, I didn't, I didn't have
money to go get another printer.
Like that's what I had.
Um, but yeah, it was, it was great.
I learned, you know, everybody that takes that step where they're thinking
about, Oh, I want to go be my own boss.
Or they look at their boss and they think, man, this person has no idea.
I can do it way better.
Well, I learned all the things that I didn't know.
Like I learned what it meant to be in the shop without leaving, sleeping on the work
tables, be there for 72 hours at a time.
You know, I learned what it meant to.
Uh, have somebody else making promises that you have to deliver on and now you're
the one that's got to make it happen.
Um, I, I learned about, you know, the stuff that a lot of people don't think
about that, Hey, if it's too much work and you literally can't get it done
and you've got to pay somebody else to help you, well, the cashflow, right?
You, you got to pay that person, even if your customers haven't paid you yet.
And guess who's not getting a check?
You.
Like you can't not pay your employee.
And, um, so it was a lot of great struggles, but also a lot
of great opportunities, learning opportunities to know, okay, this
is the kind of person I want to be.
I always told myself I wanted to be this kind of a boss.
Well, now's my chance to really do it.
I always told myself I wanted to deliver this way for my customers.
Well, now's the opportunity for me to actually do that.
And, you know, we grew, I think, um, the person we bought that business from, they
were using it sort of like a tax write off to just funnel expenses into, uh,
they were grossing maybe like 30 K a year.
It was nothing like they were losing money on just hemorrhaging.
So we set up a new LLC and transferred, you know, the book of business
and all of that, so we didn't take on any of that liability and.
I think in our first year, it was just me and my sister and we did about 180.
And then the second year we were about like mid threes.
And then I noticed like there was a cap for our market.
That was, that was kind of it.
You know, we're not a franchise brand.
We didn't have name recognition, but I have a sales team out there.
It was just us kind of in the shop working.
And then also we were in kind of a saturated market.
There were actually small, small market, not that many customers,
but a lot of sign shops.
So it was kind of like a race to the bottom when it came to pricing things.
You know, you're sitting there and your customer's like, man, I got to
tell you 4 a square foot for a banner.
That's just too much, you know, down the street, they're charging me 250.
And you're like, well, 250, I'm going to go buy it from them.
Like you, you don't know what to do.
It was
incredibly common in this industry.
Like that's a, you hop on the forums.
That's the first thing you hear is like, Hey, this guy's undercutting me.
And it's like, well, like it, let him let, I mean, what do you do?
I mean, that's, that's it.
It's like, you have to find your customers.
And the problem with that particular geographic location was we had
soaked up all the customers.
There, there were no more customers to bring into the market.
So, uh, you know, now this is the downside of being in a family business is that.
When you're in the business, and this was a thing that I learned, and then I think
other people should learn it as well.
It's important to document what it is that you're doing, even
when you're so busy that you don't want to take the time to do that.
The reason is when you're working for 24 hours straight, and
then somebody asks you on what.
What did you do when you've been working for 24 hours straight?
You're like on everything.
What do you mean?
You can't enunciate it.
You can't say, oh, well, I did job for customer a for company
C for so and so B for whatever you can't list those things out.
Oh, I did payroll.
I did this administrative tasks, blah, blah, blah.
So you can't communicate effectively.
So that's one thing that I, a piece of advice I definitely learned is you
got to document what you're doing.
And then the second is that.
And this is just a problem that I personally had your family might, may not
be this way, but when I had things that I wanted to accomplish professionally,
my family didn't hear that necessarily from Evan, the professional, they
heard that from Evan, you know, my brother, Evan, my son, Evan, whoever,
like, oh, that's just Evan, like he, he doesn't know where we don't really
have to, you know, Go into a new market.
We don't have to think about what our geographic boundaries are.
We don't have to do that kind of stuff.
So, and what I,
there's definitely a lot of interesting dynamics in
family business.
Oh yeah.
Well, and, and, you know, this was another good opportunity that
happened though, was for one, a mistake that I made was I let myself.
I think a lot of shop operators are used to kind of like, if you think about the
tachometer on your vehicle, they're used to operating in the yellow and the red.
They, they don't know what it feels like to just go 2000 RPMs.
Cause they're going like 6, 000 all the time.
And I was definitely that way.
So I didn't know what my limit was until I hit it.
And then when I hit it, it was like.
Okay, and the basically what I said to my family was I can be
in this business or I can be in this family, but I can't do both.
And what I'm going to decide to do is leave this business because I
think in the long run, it's going to be better for all of us if I just.
Leave this, don't take any resentment, don't take anything.
You guys have the tools that you need and I'll go find something else to do.
And that was really a hard pill for them to swallow.
Um, that I think it, you know, we did talk again, but it took a year
before it was like, okay, let's have Christmas, you know, let's, let's
actually have these conversations.
We couldn't talk about business for, I think at least six years.
Just because just the hard feelings that were there, but me leaving that.
I was like, okay, I'm cold turkey leaving.
What am I going to go do?
Just so happened.
I knew of another sign business, kind of where I came from.
Uh, and they actually weren't in signs at the time.
They were only in, it was, I knew them from doing print media.
So they printed newspapers and magazines and stuff like that.
And I was like, Hey, I see that you guys are trying to stand
up a wide format department.
Well, I ran my own business for a couple of years.
Do you need somebody to help you with that?
And they're like, absolutely come in.
Uh, and that was when I felt I really got my real introduction to working in.
A larger shop with larger customers that right off the bat, you know, we had a 5 by
10 flatbed direct to substrate UV printer.
We had a 5 by 10 belt fed Kongsberg.
Um, I had another, uh, CNC that was in a back room.
You know, we had our work tables.
We, we were, uh.
3M, not just certified installers, but 3M certified shop so that
we could bring our vehicles in.
And so I learned all of the procedures and I learned every single machine to
the point that I think it took me three months before I could have operators
on those machines, instead of me doing everything and just like, Hey, push this
button, do this, drag this over here.
That's all you need to do.
I've already got everything designed.
Like, I just need you to hit go.
And that was.
Another, again, great opportunity that you get to work with this big equipment
that I certainly couldn't afford and work with these big customers that it's
like, Hey, you know, these are awesome jobs, things that we don't think about.
One of my favorite ones was actually, uh, have you ever
seen the ice vending machines?
So, so there was a local company that their worldwide distribution,
they manufactured their cabinets out of Lexan and they were getting this
printed somewhere in like Minnesota.
We're in Georgia.
And I was like, all right, well, what's your lead time?
Well, about a month, I was like, what if I said, you know, we're
right down the street, we could do the same exact product for you and
we could get it to you in five days.
And they're like, that would be amazing.
I was like, including, we're not just going to print it.
We're going to CNC route it to your spec.
So all you got to do is just take this piece, put it on your assembly line.
That's it.
Every time you sell.
An ice machine, we are giving you something that goes into your process.
So now we're a part of your manufacturing and they're like,
absolutely, let's go, let's do it.
And that was, you know, that's a great account.
That's that alone is like a 300, 000 a year account.
And anyway, it's again, just great, awesome opportunities.
And I want to stop talking for a second.
If you had any questions.
Yeah, no, no.
Like one of the questions that I had was like, did they have all this
equipment, like waiting when you came in or like you helped through
the procurement of all of that?
Or what did that look
like?
No, I wasn't there for procurement, which I think was actually probably a good
thing, because I don't think at that point, after only being in for two years.
I had enough experience to really tell them what they would need to
do and how they would need to scale.
And that's why I think it was a great learning opportunity for me,
because I went from, okay, roll to roll shop, which we were good.
I mean, uh, you would think small South Georgia agricultural town.
There's not that many signs to do.
There's a lot of logistics, like a lot of trucks, a lot of, so like we
were, I would print sometimes, you know, six rolls of media at a time.
You know, that's how many roles we were printing, like just for a order.
Um, and that's because these things need to go on semi trailers or whatever.
So go from that environment to, okay, now we're thinking about how can
I manufacture these parts that go into somebody's production process?
I don't think I had a good understanding of that before.
I arrived at that next company, but the experience that I gained from learning
and, and, you know, to what Peter was talking about every morning, I'm in
there, you know, cleaning all the heads physically on that UV printer, making
sure there's like, I knew, and you know, this, if you work in a shop, you
know, what your equipment sounds like.
Like I can't, I still have, like, I think I have PTSD from, from
the platter that I used to run.
Like I would hear it move.
And I just like, whatever I was doing, I, it was like an instinct.
It's like a baby crying or something.
You just like drop everything and go run.
Like, is it about to destroy my print?
Ruined this, uh,
you know, this 3, 000 job.
That's something I have to waste three hours reprinting it.
Yes.
I mean, it's still to the point that I haven't used that, that
same Imaki plotter and like.
I don't know, eight years.
I still, like, if I hear a graph tech move a certain way, I'm
like, Oh my God, is the print.
Okay.
Like I've, um, yeah,
I've done that so many times.
Like back in the old shop, we, we actually did not only signage, but apparel as well.
So like one area, we had like a 60 by a hundred building.
We had embroidery in one area.
I felt like I needed a pair of roller skates because like you
could hear something going on with one of the embroidery machines.
It was all the way across the shop.
And then, hey, like, you know, you turn around and then
you've got the flatbed printer.
You know, you hear something weird going on there.
And we had ACET that had a, a belt that would walk up and down.
So like if you were doing 150 or a hundred feet.
Of a banner material, you had to babysit it.
So they've been there for sure.
That's crazy.
No, that's well.
And yeah, I guess getting to that, that so the experience level,
like what you're talking about using those pieces of equipment.
It gives you so much knowledge that you couldn't even really think about until
you started working that like, okay, not only do I need to know how each one of
these pieces of equipment is supposed to work, but like, how do they fail?
What do they sound like when that's happening?
How do I really run these things?
And that's the kind of experience that I got working in a bigger shop
that was bankrolled by somebody else.
And eventually, again, like I mentioned, sort of at the beginning, having the
opportunity to grow out of places, which I don't, I don't burn bridges.
I don't do that.
So it was always leaving with good relationships that I could still have
referral partners as I moved along.
Because that's important.
And I'll put it this way.
One of the things I thought about when I was at that shop.
Was I was like, you know what I think I have an opportunity here that I
could do a lot of great things at this shop, but in what areas can I
grow like I'm good at production.
So that's an area I actually am very good at design.
So that's an area, but like, what are the caps on that?
Who are the designers?
I know who are the production people.
I know what, how much did they make and what does that look like?
And then it was like, okay, well, what about marketing?
What about sales?
And I was like, I will tell you this.
My dad has been a salesperson my entire life.
And I always told myself I would never, ever going to be a salesperson.
Like I do not want to do that, but that of the options I was thinking
of, that was the only one that I was like, Oh, you know what, if I learned
a lot about this business, that's kind of unlimited, uncapped potential.
And it's a necessary part because there's nothing to design and nothing
to make if you haven't sold anything.
So I took on a sales position and it was sort of a hybrid position because when I
went to sales, also classic of sign shops.
You have very few people that work there, right?
So you wear multiple hats, even as an employee.
So it's like, yes, I was in sales, but also I was still
doing all the production design.
And also I was still having to, like, troubleshoot machines and stuff like that.
Um, and I was like, look, I...
You know, you're holding me back from being able to go and do sales.
So I can't even focus on this job, like to see if I'm any good at it or not.
So I ended up taking another job and the next job was actually running a
fast signs, which was again, a unique learning opportunity because it was small.
I want to call it like mom and pop, kind of like what me and my
sister had where it's roll to roll.
Uh, there's, I think, including me, four employees, but it
comes with that corporate name.
And like, what do you really get for the franchise agreement?
Right.
What, what are your royalties paying for?
And it also allowed me the opportunity to learn a lot more about operations and.
It's like, I knew money was important.
I knew like, oh, but we're making signs.
So we're fine.
Right.
Well, the first thing I had to do being over operations has come in, look at
the numbers, check out what's happening.
What is the health of the business by the numbers?
I think a lot of people that work for themselves or have their own
business, they miss out on that.
You know, you hear a lot of like idioms and one of those idioms is that
money is the lifeblood of a business.
And people hear that and they're like, no, that's not true.
I am, I'm the heart of the business.
Like what I make, my product is the heart of the business.
And I'm here to tell you, no, it's not.
A good thing to call out for sure.
I mean, you can have the, you're the best person in the world with
the greatest product in the world.
If you're not selling it, if money's not flowing, like that's, that's dead.
That's a dead business.
So, and I'm
sure like Peter, like you could speak to this, like, how many guys do you
talk to that are like, Hey, I see every day, the volume of work going out.
And I know, and I see the numbers, but at the end of the year, when it, when
I look at the bottom line, it's like, where, where's that actual profit that I
thought we were making the entire year?
Yeah.
You know, look, I mean, I actually get that a lot, but there's
usually an answer to that there.
It's not that it's, uh, it's not that it's gone.
It's not that it's a way, you know, it's, there is a reason for
where all of that money had gone.
You know, we need to, is it your pricing?
Are you charging enough for your time?
You know, a lot of times that that right there is, is where
most people go to, but actually.
I have a, I have a very interesting topic to talk about here, and this is
something that is kind of on this path here of where does all that money go?
Where does all that time go?
So I was in a seminar recently and.
We were, it was a home services seminar and quite honestly, home
services is probably 1 of the easiest areas to sell hours.
Okay?
Because, you know, it takes you 5 hours to do a repair.
This is our hourly rate.
It's great.
You know, it's super, super easy math, uh, in a lot of areas
that that makes a lot of sense.
But what happens is.
Is that in the sign industry, because we don't quite have a service that
takes certain hours, you have to calculate how many hours a project is
going to take in different departments.
Right?
So, in all in a lot of areas, in a lot of stops, it has nothing to do
with the knowledge of your billable rate, but maybe not charging.
The right amount of hours.
So when you're talking about profitability and like, I'm
wasting all this time and I'm okay.
Well, what's your hourly rate?
It's 200 an hour.
Okay.
Well, at least, you know, that right.
But how many hours did you sell for this project?
Right.
And how many hours did you actually work on this project?
And that there, right there, that difference is definitely probably where
a lot of that profit goes out the window.
Like, you're working your butt off.
You think you made a fair price, but you actually took
longer to complete the project.
And that's a hidden, it's a hidden metric, right?
It's a hidden metric.
It's not going to show up on any kind of KPIs.
It's not going to show up on any type of job costing report.
It's going to say you have to kind of keep track of that on your own.
Right?
There's no software.
Shopbox doesn't do this.
Corbridge doesn't do this.
There's nobody that's going to say, well, we sold 30 hours and it took 22.
Okay, you great.
You've made a surplus of 8 hours or.
You know, what, what is that Delta?
What were you over?
Were you under?
And in a lot of places, people are selling based off price.
They're, they're not asserting their value.
They're thinking this is our market value.
This is our market price and.
Okay, if it took you, if you took your shop six hours, but it could take another
shop three hours with a different type of machine, one that you don't have to
hold onto the banner as it comes out, you know, if it comes out, you know, maybe
they have a faster printing machine.
Maybe they have five people that can, you know, hand grommet and seem a banner in.
40 minutes where it take you two hours.
You know, I don't know.
I'm, I'm making all this up as I go.
But the fact is, is that the minutia of those details is often where people
get the answer to their problem, which is I'm working my ass off, but I have.
10 at the end of the day, uh, I can barely get guests with this.
What was it all worth it?
So that's usually the, that's the biggest takeaway.
It's not often the price that you're charging.
It's not often the markup on the materials.
I mean, that's all easy stuff.
It's often the hours that you're selling is not enough to take
on the scope of the project.
Yeah,
definitely a challenge in the operations.
Well, I was going to say, I definitely see that.
And one of the great opportunities that I had going to fast signs and
you hit on it is actually, I think at that time, they, that was at the same
time they were making the switch from their previous ERP to core bridge.
And so I set up core bridge for fat for that particular fast science franchise.
And that was the first time that everything I knew that I was working
with my sister about, Hey, we need to be tracking this, this, this, and this.
So we know where's our money really going.
Well, now it was, I was working with a system that I was building out to do that.
And I mean, there, you're right.
There's a lot of stuff that's not in core bridge, but there was a lot of
stuff that I could dive into, like, Hey, you know, we own the building.
Great, but we're still paying on it.
So, you know, this printer takes up X number of square feet.
And we have X number available.
So right away, even if it's doing nothing, even if it's unplugged, it costs money
just sitting there, taking up space and then, you know, looking at the
real actual costs, things that people gloss over, like, oh yeah, I don't,
I don't consider ink one of my costs.
I'm like, no man, like depending on what printer you're running and how many layers
of ink you're doing, or it's like 12 cents a square foot, 32 cents a square foot, it
depends, you know, um, and it's important because it adds up and then that was.
One of the things I implemented immediately with the staff there was
I did my job to make sure on the back end without them having to do anything
that we understood what our costs were.
So it's like, great, you sold a banner for a hundred bucks.
That's awesome.
How much did it actually cost us?
And that one point that you're talking about.
I, it was, I had to implement my own system to track time.
How many jobs do we actually get out in a day?
Like how long did it actually take?
And so I would pick jobs.
I was like, look, I'm tracking these jobs.
I'm going to track every job this week.
I'm going to, I want to time in and time out on every single
time somebody touches this.
So then you have an overall time, right?
Like, Oh yeah, it took us a week for the job to get out.
But how many hours did we actually put into the actual job?
Um, and so, yeah, that was huge.
The other huge thing that I will say, like, yeah, everybody
in their businesses, they got different ways they want to run it.
If you want to really know what's going on, you got to be willing
to stop what you're doing and take the time to really dive in.
And a lot of times with an owner, with the owner mentality, you're stressed.
You're thinking about how do I make the next paycheck?
How do I get the next sale?
You're like.
Figuring out where your costs are.
That feels like minutiae.
You feel like I don't have time for that, but it's important stuff.
It's like, are you carrying like 50 percent margin with you
when you could be carrying 80%?
You know, like, how do you make more money doing the same amount of work?
And is it worth looking at that?
In my, in my case, a lot of times, yes.
It's worth looking at how efficiently are you making your money?
Because if you can work the same amount for 100 as you were working
for 50, like, make the 100.
Agreed.
Now a huge part of working for that particular franchise, looking at the
numbers, what was great was even though a lot of stuff was missing, it was
very obvious, it was my introduction to, I guess, uh, what we say, forensic
accounting, where it's like, oh, somebody's stealing and they're stealing
a lot and the great thing about working with a franchise like that is that you
have people that are supposed to come and talk to you about how does your
store perform compared to other stores.
How much are you selling?
Like what kind of products, what are you selling them for versus other
stores, all that kind of stuff.
So I had all the metrics of how a fast science was supposed to operate.
It was to
run.
Yeah.
And that's like the business development rep, right?
That's right.
So right.
Peter, Peter's a former fast science guy as well.
He actually built it and sold a franchise.
Two fast signs and then had a fast signs and I'm sure he'll buy another fast
signs.
So you get it and it's, and depending on how your rep is
and how your market is, there's, there's some back and forth, right?
Like there's, for instance, I was told, Hey, you need to go up to this
square foot pricing on this product.
And I was like, no, I've been in this market long enough that I know
what, this is what people are buying.
And this is what we're comfortable selling.
What I am willing to do is make sure that we do it efficiently.
So for instance, something that a lot of shop owners, and I, I don't know if it's
a pride thing, or they don't realize this is an option is that you can outsource.
You don't have to do everything yourself with your equipment.
For instance, let's say like a hundred percent of your workforce is working
on this job for your biggest customer.
Meanwhile, you have other customers that still want stuff.
Well, guess what?
You don't have to work second shifts and third shifts to
try to accommodate everybody.
Sometimes the cheaper solution might be, just buy it from somebody
else and sell it to your customer.
Make a smaller margin on that, but you're gonna make more money and
have a happier customer than if you were trying to do it yourself and
overworking yourself and your employees.
That is an option.
But anyway, it was pretty easy to step into this particular franchise and see
like, okay, we're underperforming by about 70 percent compared to other stores.
Uh, a huge part of this is somebody stealing.
Um, so we're getting rid of that.
We're doing employee turnover.
I got very, very lucky.
I was able to get a great, uh, in, in fast signs, that front desk
person, we call them inside sales.
So it had a great inside sales person that.
And I will say this, a lot of my restaurant training came in great at
a fast science because I already could speak corporate and I understood when
you're on, when you're on a grill line, you have grill operators and they're
each stationed in this particular spot.
They can all do everything, but if you have somebody in slot one, it doesn't make
sense for them to come over to slot four.
And then do something for that person.
They can work in two, but not in three or four, because then
you're losing their efficiency by taking them too many slots away.
So in my fast signs operation, it was like, look, you're inside sales.
You're going to help build customers.
Talk to them.
I'll let you get a little bit into design and understanding how
manufacturing stuff works, but I don't ever want you in manufacturing.
All I ever want you to do is be here.
Taking care of customers and possibly assisting with design.
The designer, they're station two.
It's like, okay, you're going to answer the phone sometimes.
That's just the thing that's going to happen.
I know you're not going to be as good as our front desk person,
but it is going to happen.
You're not going to manufacture, but you're going to know
how to run these printers.
So that if the manufacturing person can't do it, you can.
I don't want you installing.
That's not your job.
You stay right here.
Same way manufacturing person.
All right.
You're going to understand how to run these printers.
It's not your main job.
Your main job is to put the science together, you know, and it keep going
down the line that way to maintain these efficiencies and personnel.
Um, and what really, though, made it a successful franchise was going from being
completely in house to having me, once I had the team set up, that freed up my
time to go be an outside salesperson.
Then at that point, it was like, okay, great, we're running
what we need to run in house.
We're manufacturing the things that we're good at manufacturing, that we make a
high margin on, like banners and vinyl.
So we have installation services that we're comfortable with doing, like we're
comfortable with doing these types of wraps or these types of decals, not every
wrap, not every decal, and then I'm able to set up my vendor list of, all right,
all right, who's a good wholesaler that I got somebody because of the name that
they were like, Hey, I need to have.
I don't make sign cabinets like I don't, I don't put, you know, electronics.
I don't do ballast.
I don't have a crane.
I don't do metal fab.
Like we're not set up for that, but I'm going to sell it.
And then those projects, of course, that's when I really understood.
Okay.
You have different projects with different lead times.
So.
All right, I'm going
to I'm going to stop you right there.
I'm going to stop you.
Yeah.
All right.
Uh, a lot of times when we bring on guests here, they're super
excited, but they they talk.
They talk.
They talk and I have so many notes here.
I want to stop here because this is this is an interest.
This is a, uh, this is an interesting piece of the puzzle.
Now, personally.
I'm vibing you right here, Evan.
Not, not, not to the point
I want to date you.
Okay, okay.
Maybe if I get my mustache back.
I'll leave the mustache talk for you
and Brian.
You guys got, you
guys got some hell of a stache going there.
But, um, for me, you would make an excellent business partner for me.
Right?
Like, you have this, this do whatever it takes mentality.
I think you're more of a hunter than a farmer, but I would like
to, I think we're going to hear more about your farming abilities
here in just a bit in just a bit.
But you do come off as that.
Um, never say no type of guy, right?
Never say no type of guy.
We're going to find a solution.
Like, you're a solutions to me and I, and I love that because that, you know, I, I
echo that I am a solutions hunter as well.
But I want to ask you a question.
Thank you.
You talked about, you just mentioned, like, you don't have a crane, you
don't get into, like, metal fab, or, you know, whatever, and, and, that's
not, okay, so I'll, I'll, I'll put my FastSigns hat on for a minute.
That is not the FastSigns model, right?
The majority of their centers, they don't practice this area of sign making.
They use their vendor networks, they outsource, you know, I was there,
I've been there, and I've done that.
But for somebody like yourself, I'm actually very genuinely
honest to hear your opinion.
I don't even know which way it's going to go here.
But indulge me.
Have you ever thought about getting a full fledged shop going?
You know, knowing that you could jump out of vinyl into fab, because you
are in that area of like, if I get that somebody that's going to ask.
I'm going to do it.
I'm going to say yes, you know, I'm going to do whatever I can.
I'm going to find a vendor to outsource it.
But if you do enough of that, does that transition your mindset into
thinking maybe, you know, maybe should I be getting a break and maybe a
CNC machine, maybe getting a higher and one or two more guys, maybe
whatnot.
Well, so yeah, to your point, then I would say anybody in any business that you start
out and you don't really have anything right, your ground roots and you think
about something you want to get into.
Well, that's a high investment cost to buy the means of manufacturing.
So if you don't have that means at first you're vending and you're
outsourcing, but it's important in my mind to know, as soon as you start
that part of your business plan should be, how long am I going to vend?
Before it hits a point where it makes sense for me to manufacture in house,
but you got to understand the cost of it, like what you were talking about,
how much does the personnel cost?
How much does the equipment cost?
How much does the facility cost?
And what are the other unknowns?
Like, what's your buffer range for what's going to go wrong?
What kind of maintenance you got to do?
All that kind of stuff.
So now.
To answer the question more directly, of course, yes, I've thought about it
because I am a very analytic person and I like, I'm one of those weird people
that, you know, you drive down the road and somebody's like, oh, you know, it'd be
really good right there, a popcorn shop.
Then I'm like, okay, and I immediately in my head, I'm like,
okay, what's the business plan?
For a popcorn shop.
How does it work?
What's required to do that?
What is the market like?
What is the support?
Who else is already doing it?
You know, you think of your SWOT analysis, blah, blah, blah.
But this is all stuff that I didn't know before I got into the sign business.
The sign industry has Forced me to learn all of this for me to be successful.
And I think a lot of your questions too.
No,
you got it.
You taught you what being in this industry taught me that it is important
to really understand your business.
Not to think that, you know, everything to be self critical.
To be able to take advice, to look around you and think
about how can I do this better?
You're not the king of the hill.
There's always opportunities to be better.
You know, I love watching sports documentaries and not because
I'm a huge sports person, but because I do have some of that.
Comp that competitiveness in myself.
And it's not necessarily that I want to knock somebody off the top.
It's more for me, how do I get to be better than they are?
What is it that they're doing that makes them so successful?
And how can I do that?
And what is it?
And what you're talking about with about find the solution.
Yes, I do that for my customers, but I have to do that for myself too.
Like be willing to say like, okay, I was doing it wrong.
I had the wrong mindset.
I talked to my employees the wrong way.
I didn't have effective communication.
I thought that what my highest profitable product was was it's just incorrect.
Like my best product is actually this other thing.
You know, I thought this was a great way to make money off the installations.
Turns out no, because it's taking my resources from somewhere else.
You know, it's being able to really.
Number one, analyze, watch what's going on, measure it.
And number two, be willing to accept the data that you're given.
Like it's not working.
I was doing it wrong.
And then figure out the solution.
What, what do you have to do next?
And sometimes that takes.
An advisor that takes somebody from outside, right?
That takes somebody in a network.
Sometimes the answers are obvious.
In my case, I was lucky enough to being somebody that had no, like,
let me just put this out there.
I don't have a college degree.
Okay.
I went to high school.
I graduated from high school.
I was told I needed to go to college.
All I got from college was pretty much debt.
I had to start working to provide for a family that I wanted.
And, but that doesn't mean that just because you didn't go to college,
some of the best people that I worked with, they are some of the most
stereotypical Southern country boys you would ever know, but they know
how to run their business efficiently.
They.
They have internalized the numbers matter.
And so they look at it every day, but I hope that gets to some of what you were
talking about, Peter, as far as growing, that was the next step in my journey.
That actually I left FastSigns, that FastSigns franchise to go work
for one of the vendors that I was selling for, because I was selling
so many lighted cabinets and digital displays that they were like,
you have got to come work for us.
And they took me on as a business development manager, but I mean,
you know, I don't burn bridges.
I, you know, I, we left on, you know, good business terms, you
know, it made sense that yeah.
The franchise wasn't able to offer me what the other company was.
Hey, I still referred business.
I look, I don't talk bad about this places I worked for.
And then, so I worked for this company and you went from, I went from working
including me, five, five people to working in a manufacturing science
shop where we had 40, 40 employees.
And, you know, we were at the time, I think when we came on about 5.
5 million a year gross, and I was not even a salesperson, but I think
that that year that I worked there, I sold a million and that was because
of the opportunities that were there.
I learned what, what my skills are to your point about being a solutions
finder, like the hunter versus the farmer.
I love being a farmer.
That's where I feel most comfortable.
However, my boss at that job, he told me, he gave me this analogy.
He's like, Evan, you're like one of those Prairie plains hunters that
you see something that's out there like 400 yards away, and you're
going to dedicate all your time and your focus to hit that one target.
And he was like, I am more like a rabbit hunter.
I see something move next to me and I shoot it with a shotgun and I, it's done.
I got it.
He's like, but I used to not understand the value of somebody like you until
you sold the biggest job we have ever sold in the history of the company.
And that's from taking the risk, talking to people, finding
solutions, not no, we can't do that.
Like, Hmm, let's figure out a way to do that.
And so it was fantastic experience working in that.
And if for no other reason, I love going and talking to the guys in the
shop every day, I would walk back there, make sure that they understood
like, yeah, I'm on the sales force.
Yeah, I'm technically your boss, but what I want is to figure out.
What do I need to sell that's going to make your job easier?
Because ultimately, I want to give the customer a great product that they love.
So I'm not going to give you something to design and
manufacture that makes no sense.
Like, let's figure out how can we work together as a team.
I, it was.
A great opportunity.
Sorry.
I'll leave some space there.
You're right.
I talk way too much.
Yeah.
No, no, you're good, man.
It's uh, like, I, I've just like listening to you go on your story and it's a,
like, you have hit like every type of shop, every position within the shop.
Uh, so it like carries through like, yeah.
So So there's only two more steps, right?
Is
this, is that the last shop?
So, uh, well, great shop.
I, um, I really, one thing that I still have to learn more about that
I feel like affected me at that shop was, uh, imposter syndrome.
Like I said, I feel like I made a very steep rise very quickly.
I felt like, you know, no degree.
And here I am with guys that have been in the business 20 years and
I'm the business development manager.
Like I've been in this at that point, like seven, like, why, why am I here?
What am I doing?
Yeah.
I'm making sales, but it just, in my mind, I didn't feel like I
really belonged there, like I was supposed to be there, that I was
doing the work I was supposed to do.
I tried kind of telling myself, you know, it's a family owned business.
I'm not a family member.
It's, you know, I'm going to end up being like other production managers that I'd
seen before, where they work 30 years and then they get injured and it's like,
okay, well, thanks for all your work.
Bye.
You know, I, I, but I, at the end of the day, I can say that
they did feel like family.
I honestly cared about everybody that I worked with.
They cared about me, but I don't know what else to define it other than possibly
imposter syndrome that I felt like I just didn't fit in and an opportunity
was presented to me to, uh, take a minute man franchise and get them into
wide format and it was in the same market that I'd already been working in.
I knew all the numbers after, especially after working at a fast signs.
Like I knew exactly.
Hey, this is the kind of equipment we need to get.
This is how much staff we need.
This is how much they're going to cost.
This is how much the equipment costs.
This is with your brand and you taking things in house.
This is how much money we can expect to make in the first year.
I had the whole, the whole plan.
And we, I went to that.
We were on target.
We started with roll to roll.
Um, we started off site because there wasn't enough room.
For us to be at the main location.
My goal was I wanted to do 160k gross that first year.
We did 180 and that was with only me as the wide format employee.
So I was.
The salesperson, the marketer, the designer, the production,
the installer, like yes,
doing all of it now, like coming into this one, did you like negotiate for
equity or like, were you having those conversations because, and I bring this up
because like some people in the industry.
Are just not made to be owners.
I talked to a lot of people that like, they feel like they have to
be something they're not in order to achieve like success or be financially
stable, which, you know, it's, it's kind of like a limiting factor kind
of goes back to that imposter syndrome of like, Hey, I own this shop.
And because I employ five people, I feel like I have to be the
operations manager as well.
Even though I'm not good at that, I don't like it.
And, you know, I, maybe I'm It's like, not so good with employees, but
yeah, at this point, are you, are you negotiating for equity in any of these?
Like, is your, as your mind on ownership at this
point, yeah, it definitely is.
And what we ultimately ended up doing was basically kind of like a, a handsome
looking commission package, uh, based off of certain numbers and growth projections.
I will tell you that looking at just the numbers, the shop
that I left to go do this.
Uh, I used that, their counter offer as my metric for, okay, what am I
trying to achieve at this new venture?
And I want to achieve it within the first two years.
Um, and for me, the offer at the shop that I left was well into six figures.
And so I was like, okay, so go into this new thing.
Like, here's my base pay.
Here's the commission schedule.
Is it achievable?
Yes.
Uh, what I did not account for though, Is that when you are not the owner,
meaning you are not the one that is ultimately making the financial
decisions that I found a new trap.
I'll just say that I found a new trap that I didn't know existed.
And that trap was, Evan is a really great worker.
He can run five of these machines at the same time.
So why don't we just buy more machines and let's make Evan run more stuff.
Now, what they did not understand, I could not get them to understand.
Was for me, it was like I was a truck driver and they bought another truck.
Like, how am I supposed to drive two trucks at the same time?
Like I was my, my output potential was capped because I was, I, even when
we grew a little bit more and we got a direct substrate machine, we got a
new facility, we got a flatbed CNC.
We still had the roll to roll stuff.
Of course, I was still, I did get one employee.
We found a unicorn.
He was magical.
He was amazing.
He had some design experience, had grown up in a print shop with his grandparents,
so he knew the work that was required and he caught on, like, immediately I
could tell, I could show him everything about the machines, but even then I
was, I was on a leash, but this leash was not a leash of, no, I don't want
you to go out and sell to those people or no, I don't want you to go spend
money on marketing the leash was.
We can only produce so much because we are capped by our personnel and we are
not willing to hire more personnel.
So that means my face is out there.
The customers know me and then it's up to me to produce everything, but
I'm not the one calling the shots.
So that's why.
And you're, you're doing the selling and the production and
like, yeah, there's only so much of
that to go around, obviously.
And I started thinking about leaving, but I wanted to negotiate everything first.
And I was like, look, what would make sense for the company is actually take
me out of anything to do with production.
Like I could be, you know, an overall department manager to review performance.
And look at numbers, but really I need to be out selling so that that
will really make our company grow.
Unfortunately, the offer that I got for that was, well, if
you're outside sell selling, I want you to be commissioned only.
And if you're commissioned only, I want you making 10%.
And I was like, that is ludicrous.
I could literally be your wholesale customer and make at least 40%.
Why would I work for you for 10%?
So I was just like, okay, I've got what really did it for me, though,
is I care about my customers a lot.
I don't ever want to tell a customer I'm going to give this to you tomorrow
and then not be able to do it.
And that's what was happening.
I was being held back to that point.
And I was like, okay, it's time to go.
And so that's.
That gets us caught up to now.
I, and that's like, uh, I see that so often it is like sales is
that's, that is the business, right?
Like I talked to a lot of owners that like, Hey, I'm not a salesperson.
I don't really want to do sales, but unfortunately, like if you don't
have a good sales rep and they're not involved on like a deeper level
where they're incentivized to go sell, like, who does that fall to?
Like it falls to you, like you've got to get yourself out
there, uh, whether you like it
or not, you've got to be so right.
And so that goes back to what I said.
I never wanted to be a salesperson.
I used to legitimately believe that by just having a good product and people
receiving that product, that's enough.
And sometimes it is sometimes that is enough.
But what's going to make you really successful that you're not worrying
about your paycheck this week, because you've got the next two months covered.
That's the outside sales force.
That's making sure that people are actually going out and grabbing
that market, because we know it, all of us here on this podcast,
we know it, that somebody, a church is like, I need a banner.
They're not looking for like local sign shop near me.
No, they're looking for church banners.
That's what they're looking for.
And if they don't know you.
Then they're not going to know to go talk to you.
They don't even know that you exist.
So, like, you have to have somebody going out there to represent you, or else...
You're gonna forever just be on that grind where you're like, I'm worried about am
I gonna be able to pay myself this week?
Am I be able to cover my shop this week?
Like so I will put this in point to now for the first time ever.
I am doing no manufacturing in house I'm doing some installations because
I'm a pretty good vinyl installer and there's money to be made at
that But 100 percent it's pretty much like project management for me.
So right now my company exists off of primarily just me selling and
managing product projects and that I wouldn't know how to do any of that
if I hadn't gone through all the steps that I've been through previously.
So I operate as a one man company.
The same way I do with like a 40 man team that I have all the same structures
in place that I consider, I call it to myself, I call it dummy proofing it.
So it's like, all right, Evan, you idiots here, this is what
you're supposed to be doing today.
You know, like I have those meetings with myself every morning and every afternoon.
What do you have to do today?
What did you accomplish today?
What do you got to work on tomorrow?
What's your schedule like?
You know, I do every single day and I check myself throughout the day
Like it's just necessary the same way that I would with an employee.
I just have to and sorry peter You were making some motion.
So I all right.
Hey, no, no.
Yeah, I think he was giving you like the like This is it.
I
like it.
I think Personally for me this book never leaves my side, you know, so The pages
of pages of notes throughout the day, task lists that never leaves my bedside.
So the day before it's email getting sent out, payroll being done, bookkeep, uh,
today is the 1st, November, when we're doing this podcast, today's the 1st.
So this morning it was reconcile my bank accounts, you know, from,
from October, classify all the expenses, you know, make sure all
of our sales reports are accurate.
You know, there's.
There's a lot that a business owner has to go through and I'm so happy to hear that,
that Evan, you're, you've experienced the employee side with, I could, you know, I'm
going to jump into this business side now.
And you're still learning that there's more that to a business owner's
life than what employees see, right?
What employees see is that they may say this guy's making millions
and yet, you know, you're the last person to get paid as an owner.
I want to kind of transition this conversation a little bit.
I want to learn a little bit about your methods.
I, I, I personally, I've, uh, like I've said before, I think that
you're like the exact type of person.
I look to partner with getting into the sign business.
So I'm, I'm eager to hear your responses to just.
You know, what are your methods to getting new business?
What, what, how do you go about that digitally organically, you
know, are you hitting the pavement?
I want to hear your methods for those sign shop owners out there that are either
listening or viewing in, you know, what is it that they can do to start making,
you know, a monumental leap in sales
as well.
So that gets into my style of sales, which.
Is by default a farming, so I do still hold a belief that if I.
Grow naturally.
And by naturally, what I mean is with referral based partnerships.
So one thing that I didn't talk about is business networking international.
I was the president of a local chapter of BNI, and I, that was where
I really learned the importance of.
Working with other businesses to refer business to each other.
So just imagine kind of creating a club where, Hey, this person's an
accountant, they don't need any signs.
But I talk to other businesses all the time because other
businesses always buy signs.
So when they say, Hey, do you know a good accountant?
Guess what?
I'll be like, yes, my guy right here.
And then guess what?
In turn, Your guy is the accountant.
When a new business comes in and says, Hey, do you know a sign guy?
Like, absolutely.
He's right over here.
Let me tell you the best sign guy that I know.
Now, what that's transitioned into is that now I am, uh, I'm active in three
chambers inside of a geographic area that I'm comfortable providing to.
And I say that because.
After having drive, you know, you drive cover a certain area.
There's only so much that you can really do and get to in a day.
And between these two counties, it's all the business that I need right now.
That's for sure.
Now in one of these three chambers, I actually hold a board seat and I run a
group that we call the leads group and it's a referral based networking group.
And what that is, is again, just getting a group of people together, educating them.
On Hey, this is how you become referral partners and guess what I have the
opportunity for every single one of them to see me not only not only as an expert
in referral based networking, but as an expert in signage and they see me every
single meeting and I will tell you that me quote unquote growing naturally.
Which is every time I'm in a business situation, I just show up.
I am myself.
I always, always get at least one request for quote at any event that I go to.
And it's not because I'm asking for them.
It's because people know, like Evan is the sign guy.
So I'm going to ask it.
I like my birthday was last month and.
Some other people saw like, Oh, happy birthday, Evan.
I was getting messages.
Oh, I need a sign.
And it was, it was just like, so, and all that came from just, I tried to
make myself known when you first start.
It's like, who are you?
And you're like, Oh, I'm Evan.
I make signs.
And then I just said it.
Every single time it took at least a year before then everybody was like,
Oh, Evan, the sign, I would literally get stopped walking down the street.
Like you're the sign guy, right?
I need something for my business.
And that came from it.
That was the mustache.
That was how the mustache actually started.
I was like, you know, I need a gimmick.
I need something that people were recognizing.
Boy, did they recognize it?
But I mean, so that came from, I found, I learned about like, what
is my kind of marketing, right?
And now, especially when I took the leap into, all right,
now I'm my own business again.
What I thought going into this, okay, you know, what I really
want is to have an online.
Like web based sales platform, which I still want, but I thought that was going
to be the primary source of my income.
It's not, it's not at all.
I found out because I've worked so much on showing up places in person,
that's where I'm highest chance of converting a sale and the sales happen.
If I'm showing up and I'm talking to somebody, I'm not even considering, is
this a qualified lead or not, because I want to say this, like I've tracked it.
So far, more than 90 percent of people that I talked to
considered leads, they convert.
So doing all of the marketing ahead of time has meant that if I'm talking
to somebody, it's because they want to buy before I even show up.
And that comes from.
Mm,
it's a key distinction there.
Is that, and like most of these customers that you're dealing with, are they.
Serious business owners or like, you know, people that are starting new businesses,
like, do you, do you have like a good feel for like what the percentages or
how it breaks out?
So I want to say it's both.
And that's why I started getting more involved with, uh, economic
development in the area.
So, I mean, like if you, you know, we've all done it, we've been on jobs for
a new school that's going up, right.
If you consider the cost of that school, like say it's a 10
million school, the signs, like.
Are almost like inconsequential, right?
It's like maybe 50 grand worth of signs, maybe 20, depending on what they need.
If there's always an afterthought as well, exactly.
There's not a sign schedule in the blueprints.
You got to figure it out yourself.
You got to count the number of doors for how many ADA signs you
need, all that kind of stuff.
So I started paying attention to who are the, not the businesses coming in.
Who are the players in the community that know every single
business that's coming in?
So now I know the board of commissioners.
I know, like, the developmental authority people.
So when they can see me doing good works, and I'm providing for the customers,
and I'm getting good feedback, because I always thought that's very important.
I'm not just the slick back.
Hair car salesman that I'm like, Hey, just drive it off the lot.
Cause that's all I care about.
No, no, no, no.
I need these customers to have a good experience.
So that they tell the next person, because not only are these businesses
and these business partners, my referral partners, but these customers, like
these, what you might consider one off customers, even if it was like a birthday
banner, guess what they're telling their aunt Susie that like, Hey, when little
Joshua's birthday comes up, I know exactly where you need to get your banner from.
It's the same way with car wash, you know, like, Oh, you know, we got our lighted led
sign from Evan and you need to do it too.
Oh, you know what?
We went to our distributor and they said it's going to cost X amount for us
to redo our entire space, but Evan did it for Y and it was great experience.
And so I've had enough time in my market now that I've gotten the
reputation, but now the effort is constantly exerted on maintaining it.
So I guess the question about getting new business is a lot of
times I don't personally go get it.
It's now I have a referral network that is out there and they're also online.
We have a Facebook page that's local to our area that somebody will say like.
Hey, I'm sorry, I'm opening up a business.
Does anybody know a good sign shop and boom, immediately people are tagging
me like Evan, you need to go call Evan, check out Evan, talk to Evan.
And as a good referral partner, I do the same thing for them.
You know, it's not one sided.
I, to maintain them, you know, everything costs something.
I'm not paying these referral partners money, but I am
referring their businesses.
So I'm maintaining good faith with them.
I, first of all.
I love that you have led a B and I chapter.
You hear about that culture just in your tone and inflection here.
I mean, it's, I can't imagine being a business owner and running
a chapter and introducing new people and having, it's almost like
you're networking for 2 companies.
And I honestly, uh.
I, I'm thinking back to my chapter leaders over the years, and I just remember how
like the active and engaged they were.
And like, I'm, I'm focused on my business and I don't got time
to think about John Smith that wants to join the B and I group.
So, I give you a lot of credit there more than you more than, you know, in terms of
just your bandwidth, you know, and taking and taking that on is incredible feet.
I want to kind of again, I love your answers and they were exactly
what I was hoping for that.
You would say, because again, you're kind of reminding you're
reminding me of me a little
bit
a little bit
somebody like this before that just gets it.
Uh, I want to hear a little bit more.
I want to take that.
Okay.
So you're your lead generating tactics are a little bit more.
I wouldn't, I don't want to say quite unconventional, but I
would say they're like old school.
Oh, okay.
Old school.
Yes.
Very much old school, but personable.
I like it.
And I, and I really like, uh, that you're, that you're out there.
You're putting yourself out there in places and organizations,
clubs, whether it is the BNI group or your chamber of commerce.
But I think you've kind of dialed that in a little bit, like
you're not traveling very far.
Uh, you're kind of able to go from one area to the next and
people know and understand you.
I want to, I want to kind of take that though to the mindset
that you have as an owner.
So, everybody's doing, everybody does this differently.
Um, I have a couple of clients that I talk to weekly about this.
And, you know, this business is not transactional.
This business is consultative.
I think the, the sign shop owners that understand that, that grasp that,
like Bryant and I, we talk about this all the time in our pricing course.
We're not selling rubber ducks.
You know, we're, this is a, a custom made project.
This is a, uh, a project that takes time understanding, it needs communication.
It needs to understand the goals, the vision.
What, after this is all done, what is it gonna do for you, Mr.
Business owner?
I mean, there's a lot of consultative nature to around what we do.
We, you know, but I want to ask when you put on that hat and that
business owner hat and you walk into a business, you said car washes before.
So I'll use that as an example might be a tough example, but I'd like to see
what I like to see your answer here.
You know, do you put your how do you put yourself in the limelight?
How do you put yourself in the in the eyes of a car wash owner?
Again?
It could be a salon.
It could be a restaurant.
It could be anybody.
But how do you put your how do you put them in the purview
that you're the expert that.
They should listen to you and why they should listen to you and how
do you start building value there with that type of owner that again,
you don't know their business.
You don't know what they do every day.
So how do you supplant yourself in that, uh, in
that mindset?
So I'll say, and I'm just going to kind of go through this scenario
and I'll also preface it with again.
I don't consider myself.
A salesperson necessarily, but I've found out that I can cold call and my method to
doing that, like, let's say no referral.
I walked into a place, maybe, maybe it's like a restaurant and I'm having
dinner there with some friends.
And then, uh, it happens to be, cause this happens as the owner walks by
and like, Hey, how was your meal?
Hope everything's good.
It's a manager or something like that.
I was like, Hey, it's doing great.
Oh, by the way, I noticed that like one of your signs out front
was like, somebody ran over it.
It got hit.
And I just want to let you know, like, I'm not saying you gotta use me.
I just want to give you a card.
If you ever need an expert to talk to somebody, like I understand
nobody knows how much signs cost.
Nobody knows how long it takes to make them, but now, you know, somebody.
So thank you very much for a great experience.
I really enjoyed it.
We'll be back again.
And if you need help.
Call me and I call that the Homeward Bound method because I don't know if
you remember the movie Homeward Bound.
Of course I do.
Okay, so the cat is trying to teach the dog how to catch a crayfish.
And he's like, how do you get it?
How do you do it?
And she's like, just act like you don't want it.
Just like, and he's like, I don't want it.
I don't want it.
And then it bites him and it's like, ah, so it's kind of, it's a, I almost
feel like a universal truth that in any kind of relationship, including
the like salesperson customer relationship, you've got to act
like you are fine without this sale.
You are cool without it.
You are established.
You are the person that is the expert.
You exude that confidence.
You are comfortable talking to that person.
I did not used to be that way.
I promise you, I used to not at the end of a conversation with
a potential customer, I wouldn't say, Hey, can I quote that for you?
I would not ask that.
I asked that now, uh, I, I mean, it's so important it's, and especially when you
talk to, I think some people, again, we were talking about imposter syndrome.
I think some people sell themselves too short.
They think that they're talking to a customer and that they're down here
and the customer is up here and oh, this, this huge successful business,
like, uh, please, sir, just, you know, if you need anything, call me
like, no, they're a business person.
They operate in transactions.
Like, tell them, I want the opportunity to quote this, if
you feel like I can provide that.
Would you mind giving me the opportunity?
I've never had anybody tell me no.
I've never had anybody say...
I love the ask.
Nobody has ever said no.
Like, we're not going to give you a chance.
You
just skyrocketed to one of my favorite guests at the very top of
the
list.
Better than Maggie's quote.
You know, I love the way you asked for the opportunity.
I love that.
I can't, I can't, I can honestly say I've never done that.
Uh, and I don't know many people that have done it.
My, my old business partners don't do it.
Even my best friend who owns a sign shop right now certainly doesn't ask like that.
So that, Bryant, when you're putting together the title of this podcast
episode, you know what I mean?
Like, that's got to be considered to, to be the title here.
Like.
Asking for the sale.
I have never heard anybody genuinely just
asking for the asking for the opportunity to quote.
Yeah.
That's it.
I mean, I get it.
If you're 100 percent in a sales position, you're not going to make every sale.
It's not going to happen.
We know that, but.
Having the opportunity is important.
It's, you know, that old adage that, you know, you miss a hundred
percent of the shots you don't take.
So it's like, it's your job.
Why are you not taking the shot?
It's like, do it.
It's important like that.
You're worried about your paycheck, your employee's paycheck, you know, whatever.
Take the shot.
It's your responsibility.
It's it, it's your job to do it.
But I think once I got past that, that was cool.
I still have a little bit of like, the reason that I network is because I even
still feel like there are levels, but now hanging around these people all the time
has made me feel a lot more comfortable about like, okay, I, I am normalizing.
It's like, look, Oh, you know, Hey, commissioner.
So, and so, Hey, that birthday I told you about.
All three mayors of the local three cities that I network in, they're
all happy birthday, Evan, you know?
So it's like,
That's such an important thing for me of like, yeah, I heard you going on about,
like, Hey, the, the BNI group, like you, you explicitly cultivated, like, I know
these are going to be business owners.
These are people I want to be around.
And you're just there showing up.
Like, that's.
That's probably 80, 90 percent of it is being there and being
around more than that.
It's fostering new relationships.
You know, like, I bet you it's the same people.
Not always the same people showing up to those meetings,
but the same familiar faces.
And what that presents is, hey, we're here for a reason.
You know, you may not have a need this week, but maybe it's 6 weeks from
now and I'm getting a chance to get in front of you and you're getting
a chance to get in front of me.
Right?
I mean, I'm sure you're in in that in that V and I group.
You got.
Plumbers and insurance agents and all sorts of things.
And, you know, when the need arises, you have a go to, you have a go to.
It's like, you have your guy, you have your guy.
And right now, Evan, you are my guy.
Yeah,
well, I think we've definitely gone a little
longer than we intended to here.
I'm sorry, I talk way too much.
No,
no, no, it's.
This has been a great conversation.
I'll agree with Peter that, you know, I think you, you've been one
of my favorite guests so far as well.
Thank you.
Um, yeah, we kind of, we kind of usually in these with a,
like a transition to the future.
So what does, what does the future look like for you, Evan?
What does the future look like for you?
Sure.
Um, I've got, uh, two next steps kind of buying to be step number two.
Um, and that's either taking on some of the manufacturing because.
I'm not 100 percent getting everything that I want from my vendors and, uh,
also continuing to build on the success of vending my sales by means of having
online sales and the main purpose of that would be to take items that, you know,
yard signs, banners, high margin, low costs, pass through things that even if
I can make something 20 a day profit.
Great.
That's 640 bucks a month that I made from me not having to take the same amount of
time that I sell somebody like a billboard to sell a hundred dollar banner, you know,
it's, it's worth it to give me some relief to sort of automate that a little bit.
And then, plus that also has a lot to do.
We haven't talked about this, my, the company, since my name is Evan
Zebley, then my company is EZ signs.
So it, it just makes sense for the easy brand.
Hey, it's easy.
Just go online and get it, you know?
Um, but anyway, I've got those two things going and I imagined it probably
both going to happen at the same time.
I gotcha.
Yeah.
Uh, iron.
A lot of irons in the fire.
Um, are you, like, are you, are you looking to, like, with your online sales,
say, like, just to step into that for a moment, because it's a very interesting
topic for me and one that I see like a lot of owners want to step into.
Uh, and it it kind of difficult with stuff like signage because it is Mm-Hmm.
custom, even within a banner, you know?
Um, how do you do that?
But like, are you planning on like marketing that to a wider audience
or is it more of just like, Hey, I've got my area that I serve.
I may not be able to come out and talk to you for a hundred dollar
banner or, you know, like, if you need something quickly, like just log on.
Uh, are you planning on like serving?
Like a national audience, or is this just like a, a nice way to,
you know, funnel some of that other smaller stuff into a, a more efficient
queue or flow, I guess.
My main goal is to allow myself more time so that I can go, uh, work on
other, uh, more profitable sales.
So it is.
I want.
You know, initially just to kind of take care of some of the easier
stuff, you know, because if you're dealing with a college and they've
already got the graphics done, they just need to send it somewhere.
And if they send it to a custom signed shop that they have to go through
a salesperson, it takes three days to get a proof back or whatever.
It's like, why did I do that when I could have just gone to
VistaPrint and printed it right now?
So I want to have a solution right now for my customers.
And I do want to let it grow.
Naturally, I believe it will grow, but that's going to
be again through referrals.
I'll, uh, one of them, two of my favorite sales that I made while
I was at fast signs, it was, I was at fast signs when COVID happened.
So I took that particular branch from that 300, 000 a year to 700 in that one year.
And it was during COVID.
And while all the other owners were like, what do we do?
I was like.
We're going to make some social distancing signage.
The thing that everybody does now, right?
Well, there were a couple of people inventing fire at the same time.
And I was one of those people.
And I was like, look, we, we have statutes that the state sent out.
We're going to make these things that let it be known.
That's going to help your operations.
And immediately I had local companies, manufacturing companies.
They were like, Hey, this is great.
We want you to make it for our company here, our company in Pennsylvania.
Our place in Quebec and our place in California, and now I have
connections with the managers of those operations and they're like,
where did we get these from last time?
Who does this stuff?
Oh yeah, Evan does it.
Yeah.
So
it's just naturally
spreads.
Yeah.
Great.
That's right.
And I believe that I really, I believe this and it's anecdotal, but
it is true for me is that you just.
Try to be kind, even in like a semi cutthroat business.
I don't talk bad about other science shops ever, ever do I do that?
I might defend myself sometimes, but I have to, but yeah, be kind to everybody
that you can be kind to, and just do the job that you say you're going to do.
Just do it.
Fulfill your promises, never over promise and under deliver.
So I believe that, you know, I have been able to grow just
because of really those two things.
Great, man.
I look forward to seeing like the, the online solution that you come up with.
And also like, I want to hear back with where you land on like the manufacturing
side, because we we've got, uh, I'll see if I can find the episode for you.
There was one guy that we, we talked with in depth about like, Hey,
should I be doing manufacturing?
Should we get into that?
Should we not, you know, very interesting topic and you know, it could go.
Either way, uh, more of like a personal preference thing as well, whether you
want the headache involved with that as
well.
But if I, if I could find the right person to run it for me, that would be the key.
There you go.
Excellent.
Well, uh, Evan, I appreciate you joining us again.
I think 1 of our favorite episodes for sure.
Uh, Pete, any parting shots before we.
Uh, you took the wind from my sails there.
Yeah.
Evan, thank you for being here.
Uh, making the time.
I know you're in your car and I'm, and I'm sorry for, uh, for disturbing
your day if we did it, but, um, it was a pleasure meeting you.
And I, and I do look forward to seeing you here on the show
again.
Wow.
Thank you very much, guys, for the opportunity.
And, uh, thanks for, uh, hosting me in my car.
I apologize.
It's all good.
You got to get done work in the office, man.
That's all good.
Thanks.
All right.
We'll see you.
Thanks.
All right.
Thank you.
That's the episode.
I hope you enjoyed it.
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