James Dooley: Hi, today I'm joined with Jason Barnard from Kalicube and today's topic of conversation is the algorithmic trinity. So Jason, for anyone that doesn't know what the algorithmic trinity is, please can you explain that?

Jason Barnard: Right in with the meat and potatoes, James. Thanks a lot. The algorithmic trinity is the trio of technologies that all of the AI assistive engines use. Whether it's Perplexity, ChatGPT, Google AI Mode, AI Overviews, Copilot, all of them use the same foundational technologies and there are three of them. Search engines, knowledge graphs, LLM chatbots. The key is to understand that even if you're looking at ChatGPT and you're having a conversation with it, the chatbot is using its training data to talk to you. But for information it does not have in its training data, it uses search engines for recent information or niche information. It uses knowledge graphs to fact-check. Andrea Volpini just proved that within ChatGPT there is a knowledge graph. People used to say that was not true. It is true. Fundamentally, nobody is going to reinvent the wheel to do the same thing for the same audience. These engines are trying to solve your problem as efficiently as possible with the best possible solution, and their audience is users.

James Dooley: So here's a question for you then. If ChatGPT has got its own kind of knowledge base, is that the same as Bing's or is it different?

Jason Barnard: They do not appear to be taking that from Bing. Microsoft have got a huge knowledge graph. Google have got a huge knowledge graph. ChatGPT's knowledge graph is integrated, partially at least, into the LLM itself. Geeky talk, if you think about how an LLM works with parameters that have gradually strengthened, you could look at a parameter in an LLM as a node in a knowledge graph. It is a similar process if you look at it from that perspective. They also have a product knowledge graph now. You have a product feed with ChatGPT. There is explicitly a knowledge graph there, plus WordLift proving there is a knowledge graph behind the answers ChatGPT gives. To defer to your racehorsing career, we're off to the races, James. The algorithmic trinity is boss.

James Dooley: With regards to the trinity then, is there any part you think is more important, or do you need all three? Making certain you've got the knowledge graph, you're in the LLMs, and you're also ranking in the search engines.

Jason Barnard: You have to have all three. It cannot talk about you if you're not in the LLM itself. It cannot talk about you confidently if you're not in the search results, because you'll miss out on the stuff it does not know, the niche stuff or the new stuff. If you're not in the knowledge graph, it won't be able to fact-check and it won't be confident in what it's saying. Engineers are building these things to avoid hallucinations because hallucinations are bad user experience. Does it understand who you are, what you do, who you serve, and that you're credible? That is fundamentally important. The confidence the machine has in that understanding is key.

James Dooley: With regards to this then, when you say knowledge graph, I know about knowledge panels in Google. Kalicube is helping me go and find trusted sources, repeat and do self-collaboration across everywhere. There's a knowledge panel, there's a knowledge vault, there's a knowledge graph. You can strengthen your knowledge graph score. How does it work in the LLMs? Is it completely different to get that information there? Are they using similar self-collaboration data?

Jason Barnard: Lovely question. All of the algorithmic trinity use the same data source, and that's the web. If you can get in the web index, you can potentially feed all three. The question is what kind of information are they looking at and what URLs do they trust. That is the main difference. From a brand perspective, they're all looking at your digital footprint. That reduces your playing field to what is out there on your website, on third-party websites, on your own social media channels. All of that needs to be under your control. You need to manage it and optimise it because that's what feeds them all. Get yourself in the web index. Make your content friction-free to get into the web index. Well organised so it's indexed, then tasty for the algorithms so they want to use it, whether it's for the knowledge graph, the LLM training data, or surfacing in search.

James Dooley: I've known you for over six years and I've always known you as the brand SERP guy. I first knew you from wearing a red shirt and being the brand guy. But now with the algorithmic trinity, it's more than brand SERPs. You've got LLMs and AI Overviews and the knowledge graph. Now you have to be multifaceted. You need to be an AI engine expert. What are you doing to expand on who you are and what you do across those elements?

Jason Barnard: What’s interesting is the brand SERP remains the focal point. I started with brand SERPs. It’s the left-hand side on a search result for your name as a person or company. People said it does not matter because they rank number one. Craig Campbell said that to me once. I said, look underneath. Facebook, LinkedIn, review sites, right down to page 10. That is what Google pays attention to. It affects how it represents your brand, how it understands your brand, and where it looks for information about your brand. That insight tells you what you should do in SEO. I wrote a book about it. Then I added knowledge panels, which reflect understanding of who you are, what you do, who you serve. Now AI and LLMs are focused on brand. At Kalicube we track how Google represents you in search, in its knowledge graph, and in AI Mode. What AI résumé do you get when you search your name? For me it's been an evolution over 10 years since I created Kalicube Pro. Brand SERPs to knowledge panels to AI résumés. That foundation makes it easy to segue into optimisation for AI because it's all brand, knowledge, then training data.

James Dooley: The AI résumé is big because query fan-out runs multiple searches, like can I trust Craig Campbell, reviews, who is he. Now it is harder. You need more coverage of different attributes. Is Kalicube moving more into the AI résumé and reputation management?

Jason Barnard: We’ve got 25 billion data points behind us. 74 million brands and a million entrepreneurs in our system. We can tell you what needs to be done to manage that AI résumé. AI résumés are more interesting than brand SERPs ever were. They can list multiple people with the same name. They invite a conversation and push you into a due diligence rabbit hole with suggested follow-up questions. You need to control the initial response and the answers to follow-up questions. Smart work is to shape the follow-up questions so it's easy for you. For me, search always suggests brands, Kalicube, knowledge panels, because I’ve been clear and consistent for 10 years. Consistency over time and across the web is key, and humans are bad at it.

James Dooley: The lightbulb moment is we argue about SEO vs GEO. But the best SEOs can do both. Now you also need knowledge graphs and panels. The trinity is what makes a good SEO. You need to be a brand. Branded clicks matter. Helpful content updates hit affiliate sites because the author is not a known entity. I think in 2026 people will say the number one ranking factor is the algorithmic trinity.

Jason Barnard: I hope so. When I figured it out I thought, Eureka. It’s simple. If it’s simple to explain and makes sense immediately, it’s a useful universal truth. If all of them use the web index and all use your digital footprint, your job becomes managing your digital footprint on-site and off-site to feed the web index with the right content for each of the three. The job is not difficult. It’s just many moving parts. Kalicube Pro is designed to manage that.

James Dooley: Something simple needs the right tools. Cutting a tree is simple with a chainsaw, not simple with a blunt saw. Kalicube is the chainsaw because it tells you what you’re missing.

Jason Barnard: And to add to the tree analogy, if you chop the tree straight across, you do not know where it will fall and it might fall on your house. You need someone to say cut here, cut there, it will fall that way and won’t crush your house. People often oversimplify and do it themselves. They come back later, they’ve lost the knowledge panel, the brand SERP looks terrible, the AI résumé mixes them up with someone else, and recovery takes longer than building it right.

James Dooley: I’m guilty of moving too fast. I thought Google Books would help my knowledge panel, so I did eight books and it created multiple KGM IDs, which fought each other. I launched podcasts, looked at Google Scholar. You told me to step back, fix foundations, then build. Without the right tools, I was cutting without direction. People should reach out to Jason and get Kalicube Pro. Branding is becoming more important for local SEO and lead generation too.

Jason Barnard: Trust and confidence get overlooked. People say, look me up on ChatGPT or Google, and they come back saying it uses your website. It does not work like that by default, because they do not want to trust you. Your website needs to be organised so machines systematically come back to it to learn who you are, what you do, what you’re doing today, and how you want to be represented. They will believe you if you claim and frame on your website, and you prove it off your website. That is the key. If machines use your website for information, it is easy to pivot. If they do not, it is hard.

James Dooley: That’s why an entity home matters. If I pivot careers, I can change what I say there. On other platforms, I cannot control it as well or connect it properly.

Jason Barnard: Exactly. If you master search but not the knowledge graph and LLMs, the message is not straight. It has to be straight in all three. Some SEOs say focus only on search. Others say focus only on LLMs. All three matter. We also pivoted Kalicube away from selling to SEOs and towards entrepreneurs and corporations. For entrepreneurs, it’s personal brand as a business driver, career, legacy. For corporations, it’s controlling the funnel, comparison searches, conversion, and winning top-of-funnel research. We call it top of algorithmic mind. If you get there, the algorithms recall you instantly. I leveraged Semrush webinars and content, so the association between Jason Barnard and Semrush is strong. As Semrush grows, that association helps me.

James Dooley: That comes back to the trinity. If you improve multiple related entities, it strengthens you.

Jason Barnard: Yes.

James Dooley: For anyone watching, let us know if you agree. Is the algorithmic trinity the number one ranking factor? If you did not know what it was, reach out to Jason Barnard at Kalicube. Jason, it’s been a pleasure.

Jason Barnard: Brilliant. Wonderful. Thanks, James. That was fun.