WEBVTT 00:00:03.060 --> 00:00:06.630 Matt Abrahams: The best way to connect and truly communicate 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:09.150 is to be curious and respectful. 00:00:09.915 --> 00:00:13.095 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:13.095 --> 00:00:14.895 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:15.165 --> 00:00:18.585 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:19.005 --> 00:00:21.675 Today I'm really excited to speak with Fareed Zakaria. 00:00:21.884 --> 00:00:25.125 Fareed is the host of CNN's flagship International Affairs 00:00:25.125 --> 00:00:27.705 Program, Fareed Zakaria GPS. 00:00:28.174 --> 00:00:30.560 And he's a weekly columnist for The Washington Post. 00:00:31.175 --> 00:00:36.365 He specializes in translating complex geopolitical trends for a broad audience. 00:00:36.905 --> 00:00:41.015 His insightful book, Age of Revolutions, is out now in paperback. 00:00:41.375 --> 00:00:42.185 Welcome, Fareed. 00:00:42.575 --> 00:00:46.685 I have benefited so much from what you do on television and in your writing. 00:00:46.685 --> 00:00:47.825 Thanks so much for being here. 00:00:48.245 --> 00:00:49.565 Fareed Zakaria: It's a pleasure to do this. 00:00:49.805 --> 00:00:50.644 Matt Abrahams: Shall we get started? 00:00:50.735 --> 00:00:51.425 Fareed Zakaria: Absolutely. 00:00:51.785 --> 00:00:54.485 Matt Abrahams: You argue we're living in one of the most revolutionary 00:00:54.515 --> 00:00:56.255 periods in all of history. 00:00:56.585 --> 00:01:00.155 What specific forces are leading you to make this claim? 00:01:00.495 --> 00:01:05.025 Fareed Zakaria: So if you look at the base of change, particularly along 00:01:05.025 --> 00:01:09.285 the kind of key drivers that have tended to produce this kind of sense 00:01:09.285 --> 00:01:13.305 of society being upended, they tend to be technology in the first instance. 00:01:13.305 --> 00:01:16.995 Almost always, you know, in my book the Age of Revolutions, I talk about how 00:01:17.235 --> 00:01:22.245 starting with the Dutch and the invention of the kind of technology that allowed 00:01:22.245 --> 00:01:27.180 the Netherlands to become rich, you know, this was water management, then financial 00:01:27.180 --> 00:01:30.750 management, they created the first joint stock companies, the first stock exchange. 00:01:30.900 --> 00:01:35.760 Then transportation equipment, they invent tour ships that can go around the world. 00:01:36.060 --> 00:01:38.220 It produces a huge set of revolutions. 00:01:38.500 --> 00:01:42.610 If you think about the information revolution, this really is the mother 00:01:42.610 --> 00:01:46.930 of all revolutions at some level because you are almost replacing, 00:01:47.170 --> 00:01:51.610 or at least replacing in central importance, the material economy and 00:01:51.610 --> 00:01:53.830 supplanting it with a digital economy. 00:01:54.010 --> 00:01:56.170 And now with AI, that becomes even more true. 00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:02.230 The second is globalization, which is, we have seen an explosion of globalization 00:02:02.230 --> 00:02:06.990 on a scale, in the last 30 or 40 years, on a scale like nothing we've seen before. 00:02:07.290 --> 00:02:10.470 To put it in simple context, globalization, you know, the rest of 00:02:10.470 --> 00:02:15.360 the world joining in the kind of western open market system, 1950s and 60's, you 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:17.520 had Japan joining, 80 million people. 00:02:17.970 --> 00:02:23.430 South Korea, 40 million people, Malaysia, maybe Singapore, Hong Kong, 5, 10 million. 00:02:23.910 --> 00:02:29.940 Between 1985 and 1995, roughly, China, India, most of Latin America, 00:02:29.940 --> 00:02:33.920 Indonesia, you talk about 3 and a half, 4 billion people joining 00:02:33.920 --> 00:02:35.860 the open world trading system. 00:02:35.880 --> 00:02:39.390 So that shock, but then the other one, which people don't think about 00:02:39.390 --> 00:02:43.950 enough is we have gone through enormous cultural change in the last 40 years. 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:48.210 Think about the role of immigrants in society, in western societies. 00:02:48.570 --> 00:02:50.730 And another point I'm trying to make is that this is all 00:02:50.730 --> 00:02:51.840 happening at the same time. 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:55.320 So when you put that all together, this does feel like 00:02:55.320 --> 00:02:56.970 the mother of all revolutions. 00:02:57.780 --> 00:03:00.360 Matt Abrahams: It's amazing how much has happened, and how much has happened 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:02.280 in a relatively short amount of time. 00:03:02.865 --> 00:03:07.215 In an age where we're in the midst of this information revolution, and 00:03:07.215 --> 00:03:11.535 information is infinite, and algorithms influence who sees and hears our 00:03:11.535 --> 00:03:13.845 messages, I'm curious to get your opinion. 00:03:13.845 --> 00:03:17.355 Do facts still matter or has communication just become purely 00:03:17.355 --> 00:03:19.245 about identity and emotion? 00:03:19.769 --> 00:03:23.700 Fareed Zakaria: It's become much more about identity and emotion because 00:03:23.700 --> 00:03:26.100 of the disaggregation of channels. 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:30.720 I think the fundamental technological shift here, which is driving all 00:03:30.720 --> 00:03:34.410 this, is that there used to be centralized modes of communication. 00:03:34.740 --> 00:03:37.440 You know, think about radio's a one to many broadcast system. 00:03:37.890 --> 00:03:41.700 That's why in the old days when they'd have a coup, you would try to take over 00:03:41.700 --> 00:03:45.150 the presidential palace and you tried to take over the radio station, 'cause 00:03:45.150 --> 00:03:48.450 you wanted the source of political power and the source of information power. 00:03:48.975 --> 00:03:51.915 Then you went to the TV station and the presidential palace. 00:03:52.275 --> 00:03:56.475 Today in a networked many to many broadcast system, there 00:03:56.475 --> 00:03:58.155 is no node to take over. 00:03:58.155 --> 00:04:01.605 There's no hierarchy of information, and in that situation, you are 00:04:01.605 --> 00:04:05.175 going to see a much greater degree of contested facts, contested 00:04:05.175 --> 00:04:06.645 narratives, and things like that. 00:04:06.945 --> 00:04:11.655 It's very disconcerting because it does mean, as you're suggesting, a kind of 00:04:11.725 --> 00:04:13.665 post-fact or post-truth environment. 00:04:14.325 --> 00:04:19.065 But it is where we are, and that means that you try hard to make 00:04:19.065 --> 00:04:20.925 your case as forcefully as you can. 00:04:20.925 --> 00:04:26.355 You can't rely on authority anymore to say, trust me, this is what happened. 00:04:26.655 --> 00:04:28.155 You are gonna have to show the receipts. 00:04:28.605 --> 00:04:31.635 Matt Abrahams: You know, if you were to give people advice on how to talk 00:04:31.635 --> 00:04:36.855 smart in an environment where all the incentives are to speak loudly, 00:04:37.065 --> 00:04:38.385 what would you tell people to do? 00:04:38.805 --> 00:04:41.325 Fareed Zakaria: The first thing you try to do if you're trying to genuinely 00:04:41.325 --> 00:04:45.555 persuade people, as opposed to preach to the converted, which is what I would 00:04:45.555 --> 00:04:50.895 argue, 90% of what passes for political discourse on television and even beyond 00:04:50.895 --> 00:04:52.605 television, social media for sure. 00:04:53.265 --> 00:04:56.685 The first thing you've gotta do is you've gotta try and make the case 00:04:56.895 --> 00:05:01.575 as plainly, and I don't wanna say unemotionally, but in a way that 00:05:01.755 --> 00:05:05.295 does not rely on demonizing somebody. 00:05:05.565 --> 00:05:08.985 You are trying to present the facts and you're trying to say, this 00:05:08.985 --> 00:05:10.515 is what the landscape looks like. 00:05:10.515 --> 00:05:13.575 Now, here's why I think what I do. 00:05:13.844 --> 00:05:16.545 So you're not doing, you're not, there's not a lot of ad hominem. 00:05:16.545 --> 00:05:18.135 There's not a lot of name calling. 00:05:18.135 --> 00:05:21.495 There's not a lot of screaming, because otherwise you're turning 00:05:21.495 --> 00:05:23.085 off a whole bunch of people. 00:05:23.475 --> 00:05:27.675 The second thing I think you have to do is you have to marshal the facts. 00:05:27.675 --> 00:05:31.680 When I say the receipts, you have to have real evidence, real data, 00:05:31.860 --> 00:05:36.180 so that people can see that you are coming to your conclusions from an 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:41.520 honest place of analysis, rather than a preconceived place of this is my 00:05:41.520 --> 00:05:43.560 team and I'm rooting for my team. 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:47.370 And the third, and this may sound like it's contradictory to the second, you 00:05:47.370 --> 00:05:52.900 have to be able to establish a connection, almost an emotional connection, with 00:05:52.900 --> 00:05:54.850 the person reading you, viewing you. 00:05:55.150 --> 00:05:58.420 And what I mean by that is you have to establish trust and you 00:05:58.420 --> 00:05:59.830 can do it in different ways. 00:06:00.070 --> 00:06:03.040 One way is to not demean the other side. 00:06:03.340 --> 00:06:06.160 Do it in a way that says, look, I'm trying to be as honest 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:07.480 and honorable as I can here. 00:06:07.780 --> 00:06:11.440 This is the situation as I see it, it seems to me we're going 00:06:11.440 --> 00:06:13.570 down a bad path and here's why. 00:06:13.840 --> 00:06:18.625 So if you do those three things, you are likely to help, the way I think about it 00:06:18.625 --> 00:06:21.294 is lead somebody down a series of steps. 00:06:21.565 --> 00:06:25.615 Now, they may not get to the place you want them to get to, but at least they've 00:06:25.615 --> 00:06:28.405 gone down those steps and they've seen that you're trying to go down those 00:06:28.405 --> 00:06:32.455 steps honorably and reasonably and fairly, and then they may back away. 00:06:32.755 --> 00:06:35.724 Matt Abrahams: What I heard you say is that it starts with respect. 00:06:35.724 --> 00:06:38.715 You don't start with challenging and vitriol. 00:06:39.034 --> 00:06:42.530 You then provide the facts and then connect in a way that's 00:06:42.530 --> 00:06:46.520 genuine, authentic, and that's how you can foster understanding, 00:06:46.520 --> 00:06:48.200 which is different from agreement. 00:06:48.200 --> 00:06:52.070 I think that gets conflated a lot where we see understanding and 00:06:52.070 --> 00:06:53.359 agreement being the same thing. 00:06:53.780 --> 00:07:00.075 As somebody who does both writing and video camera work, many people are finding 00:07:00.075 --> 00:07:02.775 themselves having to be on air more. 00:07:02.775 --> 00:07:05.445 I mean, much of our communication now is visual. 00:07:05.535 --> 00:07:09.015 If you're a leader in an organization, you have to have a camera presence. 00:07:09.315 --> 00:07:12.555 What have you noticed has helped you be successful in making that 00:07:12.555 --> 00:07:18.345 transition from writing and speaking in meetings, into being on camera, in 00:07:18.345 --> 00:07:21.500 a way that we all could benefit from some of the advice that you've learned? 00:07:22.245 --> 00:07:27.015 Fareed Zakaria: What I am struck by is visual media is actually quite, it's 00:07:27.015 --> 00:07:28.515 the opposite of what most people think. 00:07:28.725 --> 00:07:32.745 It selects for a lot of things, but one of them is intelligence. 00:07:33.165 --> 00:07:34.155 Think about it this way. 00:07:34.155 --> 00:07:37.545 If you have an article that you're reading in a long magazine, say 00:07:37.545 --> 00:07:40.815 The Atlantic or The New York Review of Books, or the Harvard Business 00:07:40.815 --> 00:07:42.675 Review, it's not quite that long. 00:07:42.885 --> 00:07:44.505 They can often meander. 00:07:44.505 --> 00:07:46.305 They can often be parenthetical. 00:07:46.575 --> 00:07:48.105 You can't do that on visual. 00:07:48.405 --> 00:07:51.675 People will stop, they'll click off, they'll switch the channel. 00:07:51.675 --> 00:07:53.565 They'll stop watching the YouTube video. 00:07:53.925 --> 00:07:55.245 You have to stay focused. 00:07:55.245 --> 00:07:57.225 You have to be linear. 00:07:57.555 --> 00:07:58.905 There has to be a narrative. 00:07:59.085 --> 00:08:00.765 You have to be saying something important. 00:08:00.765 --> 00:08:02.955 You can't be doing a lot of throat clearing. 00:08:03.195 --> 00:08:07.215 So that I think I'm just, I happen to be good at because that's my 00:08:07.215 --> 00:08:08.865 way of thinking and talking anyway. 00:08:09.285 --> 00:08:13.785 And I tend to think that it's also that I am myself. 00:08:13.785 --> 00:08:15.465 I don't put on airs. 00:08:15.465 --> 00:08:18.630 I don't try to speak in a very fancy way. 00:08:18.630 --> 00:08:23.070 I, if you watch my show compared to, let's say you pull up a broadcast from 00:08:23.070 --> 00:08:28.109 Peter Jennings or Tom Brokaw, old anchors of 20 years ago, they would speak in 00:08:28.109 --> 00:08:34.049 these perfect clipped sentences with a, usually a low Midwestern baritone. 00:08:34.289 --> 00:08:35.640 And I don't talk like that. 00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:37.350 I talk the way I would talk to you normally. 00:08:37.350 --> 00:08:40.169 I also will have an occasional, um, in there. 00:08:40.530 --> 00:08:45.780 I think that conveys to the viewer, this is a real human being and you're getting 00:08:45.780 --> 00:08:47.880 him talking the way he normally talks. 00:08:48.295 --> 00:08:50.219 I, I tend to think that's an advantage. 00:08:50.219 --> 00:08:54.900 It's maybe partly I say that because I don't think I could pull off this 00:08:54.900 --> 00:09:00.390 sustained staying in that anchorman mode, but I do think it's an advantage. 00:09:00.599 --> 00:09:04.020 Matt Abrahams: So I'm hearing concision and authenticity are really important, 00:09:04.020 --> 00:09:07.685 and the visual medium is not as forgiving. 00:09:08.014 --> 00:09:10.515 And these are skills that you can learn and you have to practice, 00:09:10.785 --> 00:09:13.455 and yet it's becoming more and more relevant and important. 00:09:13.995 --> 00:09:17.385 I want to tie in some of your work on revolutions to things that 00:09:17.385 --> 00:09:21.285 we think a lot about, which is entrepreneurship and disruption. 00:09:21.555 --> 00:09:25.245 Many of the revolutions you described started with radical ideas that 00:09:25.245 --> 00:09:27.435 eventually became mainstream. 00:09:27.795 --> 00:09:32.085 Are there lessons we can learn that can help entrepreneurs and activists 00:09:32.085 --> 00:09:35.835 take their disruptive ideas and make them more generally acceptable? 00:09:36.420 --> 00:09:40.890 Fareed Zakaria: I think that more than anything else, the ones that seem to 00:09:40.890 --> 00:09:43.560 succeed have two elements to them. 00:09:43.890 --> 00:09:44.730 One is luck. 00:09:44.850 --> 00:09:47.310 I will be totally honest with you, and I think anyone who doesn't 00:09:47.490 --> 00:09:49.080 admit this is just being silly. 00:09:49.560 --> 00:09:52.230 You know, you get the right time at the right place. 00:09:52.230 --> 00:09:53.220 The timing worked. 00:09:53.640 --> 00:09:56.490 Other factors came together to make something happen. 00:09:57.030 --> 00:10:02.730 But the second is a certain kind of determination, a certain doggedness. 00:10:03.104 --> 00:10:07.844 You, you can't get too disheartened when you're trying to do something and you have 00:10:07.844 --> 00:10:10.665 to be willing to ride the ups and downs. 00:10:10.935 --> 00:10:13.814 The way I think about it is so many of the people who I've seen who've been 00:10:13.814 --> 00:10:17.385 successful entrepreneurs, the, the company that worked was their third company. 00:10:17.820 --> 00:10:21.330 They were determined to find something that works and you adjust and say, 00:10:21.330 --> 00:10:24.300 okay, the market doesn't want this, or the consumer doesn't want that, 00:10:24.540 --> 00:10:26.490 but you are going to do something. 00:10:26.490 --> 00:10:28.770 You're going to make it work in some way or the other. 00:10:29.100 --> 00:10:31.890 Matt Abrahams: So it's determination and taking advantage of the 00:10:31.890 --> 00:10:33.750 situation that is around you. 00:10:33.870 --> 00:10:37.949 Fareed Zakaria: Maybe the thing about luck is to recognize when fortune 00:10:37.949 --> 00:10:40.079 is favoring you and ride the wave. 00:10:40.140 --> 00:10:43.589 And that does take skill and that does take, you need to be prepared, you 00:10:43.589 --> 00:10:47.430 need to work hard, and you need to ride the wave when you see the wave coming. 00:10:47.790 --> 00:10:50.969 And the other side to it is recognize when you are against the wave. 00:10:50.969 --> 00:10:54.519 I remember having this fascinating conversation with George Soros once. 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:56.864 And he said, you and I do the same thing. 00:10:57.104 --> 00:10:59.265 We look at the world and try to analyze it. 00:10:59.265 --> 00:11:02.385 The difference is I put my money where my mouth is and you don't have to. 00:11:02.385 --> 00:11:05.655 I said, okay, given that, what do you think are the differences 00:11:05.655 --> 00:11:06.974 in the way we approach it? 00:11:06.974 --> 00:11:09.704 And he said, I'll tell you I think one of the principle differences. 00:11:10.215 --> 00:11:14.295 People who are intellectuals get very wedded to their ideas and they're 00:11:14.295 --> 00:11:17.745 very wedded to their theories and they're slow to notice that the 00:11:17.745 --> 00:11:20.295 world is disconfirming your idea. 00:11:20.625 --> 00:11:24.375 He said, if I see that the market is telling me I'm wrong, I will 00:11:24.375 --> 00:11:29.085 sometimes wait, but it's very expensive to wait and so you really 00:11:29.085 --> 00:11:33.135 need to take in that feedback that the market is telling you you're wrong. 00:11:33.525 --> 00:11:36.975 And there are times when I have made a bet and the market is telling me 00:11:36.975 --> 00:11:41.445 I'm wrong, and I'll bet against myself twice as hard on the opposite side of 00:11:41.445 --> 00:11:44.410 that bet because I've realized that the market is right and I'm wrong. 00:11:45.104 --> 00:11:49.935 And intellectuals tend to be way too stubborn in holding onto their theories. 00:11:49.935 --> 00:11:53.805 And you know this from being at a university, 'cause people in a way 00:11:53.805 --> 00:11:55.935 get famous for their theory, right? 00:11:56.204 --> 00:11:58.515 Matt Abrahams: I think that's a really valuable point. 00:11:58.515 --> 00:12:02.625 In addition to tenacity and recognizing, and being able to observe the patterns 00:12:02.625 --> 00:12:07.364 to decide what decisions to make, we need to be willing to let go and cut bait. 00:12:07.574 --> 00:12:09.435 And that's so hard. 00:12:09.495 --> 00:12:11.775 There's so many things that conspire against that. 00:12:12.100 --> 00:12:14.920 I'm gonna be very curious to hear your thoughts on this. 00:12:15.220 --> 00:12:18.790 I and a fellow colleague at the GSB, Rachel Konrad, have become very 00:12:18.790 --> 00:12:24.100 concerned about how teens communicate and the challenges that they have. 00:12:24.340 --> 00:12:27.340 I'm sure you've seen the same decline that I have, that critical 00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:31.180 thinking, interpersonal communication among teens has really taken a hit. 00:12:31.590 --> 00:12:36.840 Do you have thoughts on what parents, teachers, communities can do to 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.480 help adolescents communicate better? 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:40.290 Fareed Zakaria: I do. 00:12:40.290 --> 00:12:43.900 I hate to be clichéd about this, but I do think that Jonathan Haidt 00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:48.210 is dead on when he talks about the effects of phones and social media, 00:12:48.210 --> 00:12:52.500 and it's the combination of the two, I think, and I have personal examples. 00:12:52.500 --> 00:12:57.319 I've seen this with my kids, and in one case, one of my kids put aside their 00:12:57.319 --> 00:13:02.000 smartphone for two years, they only had a flip phone and it totally transformed 00:13:02.180 --> 00:13:08.810 the way in which they had the ability to connect and think and savor life almost. 00:13:09.079 --> 00:13:12.949 I think that the thing about a smartphone, which is like a supercomputer 00:13:12.949 --> 00:13:16.610 in your pocket, is it creates a certain kind of learned autism. 00:13:16.970 --> 00:13:19.865 What I mean by that, say when you and I were younger, we were 00:13:19.965 --> 00:13:21.980 in a awkward social situation. 00:13:21.980 --> 00:13:26.940 We're at a cocktail party, school mixer, you have to make your way around, right? 00:13:26.940 --> 00:13:28.560 Like you have to figure out what to do. 00:13:28.560 --> 00:13:32.370 You find somebody you can talk to, you look around sheepishly and 00:13:32.370 --> 00:13:34.140 hope that you catch somebody's eye. 00:13:34.410 --> 00:13:36.600 You are engaged in social interaction. 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:38.490 Today, you know what happens. 00:13:38.490 --> 00:13:42.615 The minute somebody feels socially awkward, take out their phone. 00:13:42.915 --> 00:13:46.095 And they're on their phone and they're now looking at Instagram or 00:13:46.095 --> 00:13:47.385 they're connecting with some friends. 00:13:47.385 --> 00:13:48.915 But those are people that already know. 00:13:49.245 --> 00:13:53.925 You're not engaging in the hard work of social interaction, which 00:13:53.925 --> 00:13:55.365 is with the people you don't know. 00:13:55.695 --> 00:13:57.795 Breaking the ice, finding a way in. 00:13:58.085 --> 00:14:01.995 Similarly, if you're listening to a lecture, the minute it gets boring 00:14:01.995 --> 00:14:03.255 for you, you take out your phone. 00:14:03.630 --> 00:14:06.570 You're not asking yourself, okay, is there something interesting here? 00:14:06.570 --> 00:14:08.100 Is there something I can connect with? 00:14:08.100 --> 00:14:08.940 Is there, no. 00:14:08.940 --> 00:14:11.010 So that's what I mean by the learned autism, right? 00:14:11.010 --> 00:14:13.200 Like it, you immediately retreat to yourself. 00:14:13.560 --> 00:14:16.740 And the supercomputer in your pocket allows you to retreat to 00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:21.180 yourself so quickly that you lose the muscles of doing those other 00:14:21.180 --> 00:14:22.560 things that you should be doing. 00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:24.630 I think that's most of it. 00:14:24.990 --> 00:14:29.520 I do not believe that kids today are stupid or, they're good, they're 00:14:29.520 --> 00:14:32.640 hardworking, they have good morals, they have good ethics, but I think 00:14:32.640 --> 00:14:37.459 we have given them the biggest temptation you could ever imagine. 00:14:37.970 --> 00:14:42.040 Imagine if you and I were trying to study in the old days, and you were 00:14:42.040 --> 00:14:46.545 given a machine on which you were told, you can watch every movie that 00:14:46.545 --> 00:14:51.165 has ever been made, every song that has ever been recorded, you know, 00:14:51.165 --> 00:14:52.725 here, or you could do your homework. 00:14:53.355 --> 00:14:55.995 You are giving them an impossible temptation. 00:14:56.444 --> 00:15:01.545 And so I just think the degree to which you can limit it is the best you can do. 00:15:01.905 --> 00:15:02.595 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:15:02.595 --> 00:15:06.824 I do agree that social media phones absolutely have implications. 00:15:07.125 --> 00:15:12.314 I do think adults in kids' lives can take action by role modeling, good 00:15:12.314 --> 00:15:16.814 communication, walking through the decisions that we make as we communicate 00:15:16.814 --> 00:15:20.505 with others, just so that we can make sure that these skills are, at 00:15:20.505 --> 00:15:22.765 least, demonstrated and encourage. 00:15:22.780 --> 00:15:24.100 Fareed Zakaria: Yeah, I would, I'll give you an example. 00:15:24.190 --> 00:15:26.950 In my family, we always sit down to dinner together. 00:15:26.950 --> 00:15:30.220 No phones at the table, and we always talk. 00:15:30.520 --> 00:15:34.840 Now, contrary to what a lot of people think, we don't talk about the world and 00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:36.910 international affairs and what's going on. 00:15:37.060 --> 00:15:39.760 We talk about just pretty mundane stuff. 00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:43.120 I think that's the more important, 'cause I want, I don't want them to have 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:45.070 to feel like characters in my movie. 00:15:45.340 --> 00:15:47.830 It's about what happened in their day and what happened in the 00:15:47.830 --> 00:15:49.510 dog's life and things like that. 00:15:49.810 --> 00:15:55.210 And that I think just, it seems very simple, but it does seem to me that 00:15:55.210 --> 00:15:57.250 it's a fairly good force multiplier. 00:15:57.250 --> 00:16:00.250 And when I've talked to them, they often point out that when they talk to their 00:16:00.250 --> 00:16:05.685 friends, it's becoming uncommon for family to just sit together dinner and have 00:16:05.685 --> 00:16:07.905 that meal together and sit down, talk. 00:16:07.905 --> 00:16:08.745 No phones. 00:16:08.925 --> 00:16:12.435 It's usually, let's be honest, it's 30 minutes, but it's 00:16:12.435 --> 00:16:14.175 a very useful 30 minutes. 00:16:14.505 --> 00:16:15.224 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:16:15.224 --> 00:16:17.235 And I love that you take the time to do that. 00:16:17.295 --> 00:16:21.165 And I'd love to be a fly on the wall on those conversations because in my mind, 00:16:21.165 --> 00:16:24.079 I would imagine one thing and you're telling me it's something very different. 00:16:25.349 --> 00:16:27.900 Before we end, I like to ask three questions of everybody. 00:16:27.900 --> 00:16:30.329 One I create just for you, and then the other two are 00:16:30.329 --> 00:16:31.860 similar across all the episodes. 00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:32.459 Are you up for that? 00:16:32.689 --> 00:16:33.000 Fareed Zakaria: Sure. 00:16:33.270 --> 00:16:36.780 Matt Abrahams: You have made your career, or part of your career, by asking 00:16:36.959 --> 00:16:39.209 tough, insightful questions of people. 00:16:39.420 --> 00:16:44.069 What makes for a good question and do you have a go-to question 00:16:44.069 --> 00:16:45.425 that you like to ask people? 00:16:46.065 --> 00:16:47.625 Fareed Zakaria: No, I think that's a mistake. 00:16:47.625 --> 00:16:51.015 I think that ,in general, you really should be listening to people and 00:16:51.015 --> 00:16:55.335 watching them, and that's each person has a different button you want to press. 00:16:55.605 --> 00:16:59.625 I think the most important thing, and you've said it, it is being genuinely 00:16:59.625 --> 00:17:04.245 curious and genuinely believing that everybody has a story to tell. 00:17:04.245 --> 00:17:05.865 Everybody has something to teach you. 00:17:05.865 --> 00:17:09.105 Everybody has a lesson you can learn, and I really do believe that. 00:17:09.495 --> 00:17:13.815 And if you have that kind of curiosity, it's fun to ask people questions. 00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:17.070 If I go to dinner parties and I find that, like, people have just 00:17:17.070 --> 00:17:21.330 asked me lots of questions, I leave disappointed because I know what I think. 00:17:21.570 --> 00:17:24.120 I'm only learning when I'm listening, not when I'm talking. 00:17:24.510 --> 00:17:25.140 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:28.260 One of the mantras we learned from another guest we had on the show was, 00:17:28.260 --> 00:17:31.770 it's all about being interested and not interested, and when you take 00:17:31.770 --> 00:17:33.420 that approach, it can be very helpful. 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:35.250 I'm curious to know your answer to this. 00:17:35.250 --> 00:17:38.160 Who's a communicator that you admire and why? 00:17:38.550 --> 00:17:41.520 Fareed Zakaria: Well, there are many, but let me give you one right 00:17:41.520 --> 00:17:43.530 now just because it's top of mind. 00:17:43.965 --> 00:17:47.865 I think Mamdani, the new mayor of New York, is remarkable. 00:17:47.865 --> 00:17:50.715 He may be one of the best communicators I've seen because 00:17:50.985 --> 00:17:54.675 he's figured out the medium of the moment, you know, these short form 00:17:54.675 --> 00:17:57.465 videos, they're very expertly done. 00:17:57.465 --> 00:17:59.205 They're not, this is not amateur. 00:17:59.205 --> 00:18:02.475 Remember, his mother is one of the great directors of our age, 00:18:02.685 --> 00:18:04.245 you know, so they're done, right. 00:18:04.275 --> 00:18:09.510 But then he brings to it a kind of intelligence, 00:18:09.510 --> 00:18:12.120 imagination, and authenticity. 00:18:12.360 --> 00:18:14.550 So the imagination is, if, I dunno if you remember, he's 00:18:14.550 --> 00:18:16.740 advocating for rent freezes, right? 00:18:17.040 --> 00:18:24.030 So he jumps into the Long Island Sound in February in freezing waters 00:18:24.060 --> 00:18:25.710 in his entire, in his full suit. 00:18:26.250 --> 00:18:29.310 And he comes out saying something about how he's freezing and how 00:18:29.310 --> 00:18:30.365 he wants to freeze the rents. 00:18:30.705 --> 00:18:34.215 That's the imagination, to get your attention to, he, that 00:18:34.215 --> 00:18:35.865 is really very compelling. 00:18:35.865 --> 00:18:39.764 That, that mixture of intelligence, imagination, knowing the 00:18:39.764 --> 00:18:41.235 medium and being authentic. 00:18:41.445 --> 00:18:47.295 I should say, I find many of his ideas deeply troubling and I don't agree 00:18:47.295 --> 00:18:52.875 with the substance of the policies, but I am irresistibly drawn to the 00:18:52.875 --> 00:18:54.315 power of his communication skills. 00:18:55.290 --> 00:18:58.350 Matt Abrahams: Isn't it interesting how somebody can appreciate 00:18:58.350 --> 00:19:02.189 and understand the new way of communicating, new technologies, 00:19:02.429 --> 00:19:07.139 and still bring that authenticity intelligence to take advantage of it? 00:19:07.139 --> 00:19:08.129 Thank you for sharing that. 00:19:08.399 --> 00:19:09.570 Final question for you. 00:19:10.020 --> 00:19:14.310 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:19:15.845 --> 00:19:18.179 Fareed Zakaria: I would start with authenticity because I think 00:19:18.179 --> 00:19:19.530 that's where you get the trust. 00:19:19.965 --> 00:19:23.435 Some say, you know, clarity and, you know, kind of a concision. 00:19:23.685 --> 00:19:28.365 And then the final one is probably that leap of imagination that 00:19:28.365 --> 00:19:30.075 allows you to be a little different. 00:19:30.465 --> 00:19:33.705 That allows you to do something arresting. 00:19:33.825 --> 00:19:35.925 That gets you into the top tier, I think. 00:19:36.284 --> 00:19:41.504 Matt Abrahams: So it's about authenticity, clarity and concision, 00:19:41.685 --> 00:19:43.695 and creativity and imagination. 00:19:43.754 --> 00:19:47.415 And I think when you combine that recipe together, you get great 00:19:47.415 --> 00:19:52.890 communication and certainly you are a good example of putting those together. 00:19:53.190 --> 00:19:57.300 I appreciate all of the ideas and best practices you have shared, and I really 00:19:57.300 --> 00:20:01.170 appreciate the intelligent conversation that you role model for all of us. 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:05.940 Thank you for your time and best of luck on your paperback of Age of Resolutions. 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:07.020 Fareed Zakaria: Thank you so much. 00:20:07.020 --> 00:20:08.010 This was so much fun. 00:20:08.010 --> 00:20:10.050 I actually learned a lot while doing it. 00:20:12.600 --> 00:20:14.610 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:20:14.610 --> 00:20:17.260 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:20:17.590 --> 00:20:21.580 To learn more about managing complex issues and communication, please listen 00:20:21.580 --> 00:20:24.190 in to episode 161 with Jen Psaki. 00:20:24.700 --> 00:20:29.950 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:20:30.250 --> 00:20:31.510 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:20:32.045 --> 00:20:34.565 With special thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:20:34.835 --> 00:20:38.255 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:20:38.495 --> 00:20:40.505 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:20:40.835 --> 00:20:43.835 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:20:44.225 --> 00:20:48.635 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:20:48.635 --> 00:20:50.825 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:20:51.305 --> 00:20:54.275 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community 00:20:54.275 --> 00:20:57.254 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:20:57.515 --> 00:21:01.550 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, decision boards, an AI 00:21:01.550 --> 00:21:03.830 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:21:04.070 --> 00:21:09.530 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast 00:21:09.620 --> 00:21:11.360 Talk Smart Learning Community.