Krysia Waldock Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Krysia, and it's great that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources, and promoting ways that help both and non faith communities enable autistic people to flourish. If you'd like to access the transcript for this episode, you can find it in the link in the show notes. And today was one of our episodes for our mental health series. We are really, really lucky to have Dr Amy Pearson with us. So hi, Amy. Amy Pearson Hello. Thank you so much for having me. Krysia Waldock No problem at all, and I wonder, for listeners who don't know about you or haven't read your work could tell us a bit about what you do interests all that kind of stuff. Amy Pearson I’m assistant professor at Durham University in Psychology, and I've been there for about a year now, so I primarily do research with autistic and sometimes other neurodivergent adults and occasionally do a bit of work with younger people looking at things like relationships, experiences of victimisation, how people engage in strategies to try and avoid stigma. So thinking about things like masking, which we're going to talk a little bit more about. And trying to understand the kinds of experiences that lead to poor outcomes among autistic people and what we can do to try and increase better outcomes for them. Krysia Waldock Super. And I wonder how you got into researching and writing about masking specifically. Amy Pearson Yeah. So actually it came about as a result of interactions with a student of mine years back. So I was kind of starting to go through recognising that I was autistic myself and I was starting to think about going through the diagnostic process and I had a student who was going through the same thing. And we started having conversations about what she would like to look at for a dissertation, and it was really in the early days of masking research. It was just when Laura Hull's paper had come out on pretending to be normal, and she was really interested in the concept of masking. And so we had a little bit of a chat about collecting some data around wider experiences of masking among autistic and non autistic people to see whether there was similarities and differences in the way they described trying to find ways to fit in to avoid stigma and negative social judgments from other people. And really, it went from there. So I ended up de diving into the literature and becoming really interested in the relationship between masking and other aspects of social experience, so a lot of the conversations at the time were around things like social affiliation, making friends fitting in, and one of the things that I thought was really missing from that was some discussion of why you have to do those things, right? So those things don't just happen in a vacuum that is underpinned by a sense of otherness. The idea that other people are making native judgments about you and that you have to be. So if you feel like you have to be different in order to make friends, it infers. I feel like there's something wrong with you that other people might not like, and so through discussions with Kieran Rose, who is a good friend and a collaborator of mine, really we started kind of formulating how we could pull in more of a social context into the work that's been done about masking to try and situate it rather than think about it as this kind of isolated behavioural strategy. Krysia Waldock And I wondered what you'd found in your writing and research so far, including the book with Kierin, which is absolutely fantastic. Amy Pearson Thank you. So yeah, there are a lot of different things I'm going to try not to to dump too much information about it all at once. So in the empirical work that we've done, some of the main things we've found is that all people engage in self monitoring and impression management strategy. So thinking about how we appear in different social situations and modifying that depending on the social context, so. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Amy Pearson You might, when you are at church with your church friends, act in a particular way, and then when you're at home with your family, act slightly differently. So maybe showing parts of you that are more or less relevant in those different contexts in order to smooth those social interactions. That's something that everybody does, but not everybody engages in stigma management, which is feeling like you have to kind of suppress who you are and aspect of yourself, or project a really inauthentic version of yourself in order to avoid those negative judgments from other people. So. The autistic people, specifically, some of that comes down to things like feeling like they have to suppress bodily movements and stimming that might ordinarily help us to self regulate. It might be forcing yourself to make eye contact even though it makes you really uncomfortable. It might be not talking about your interests because you're really worried that people are going to judge you and think you're being boring. We also found that that starts in childhood, so for autistic people this is not something that kind of just happens. Naturally, people from a really early point in life have negative experiences with others, they're bullied, they're victimised, and they feel like they have to change themselves as a result in order to cope with that. And they can pinpoint those stigmatic experiences from really early on. So it's not like, you know, it's just coming out of nowhere. And the other thing we found was that it gets harder as you get older. It has a really negative impact on mental health across the lifespan, and it takes a significant amount of energy. So people talk about it leading to experiences of burnout. Heightened risk of suicidality being chronically exhausted and really getting stuck in a catch 22 situation where masking is used as a way to try to try and stay safe. Over time, people become chronically exhausted to the point where they can't mask any more, and then they feel more vulnerable. So it really puts them between a rock and a hard place. So in our theoretical work about it, we've spent quite a lot of time trying to unpack how that might intersect with other aspects of identity. Like if you are autistic and black or autistic, and part of the LGBTQ+ community, how you might have additional kinds of stigma that interact with it, so you might experience things like transphobia, homophobia. Things like racism that you also are kind of having to to mask to cope with. And that masking can be a trauma response for many people, and we need to really think about trauma. Those are the things I'll say for now. People are interested and they really want to learn a lot more about it. I'd say read our lovely book, but I'm terrible at self promotion. Krysia Waldock I get that completely because I'm also terrible - I felt really bad self promoting myself on something the other day I was like, I need to tell you, but I've written something but I feel really awkward. What we'll do is we'll put your book in the show notes as well, because I think that would be really helpful and it kind of price point wise it's quite accessible price wise as well, which I think is a really good strong point of the book itself. Amy Pearson Yeah, it was quite important to us because though we kind of wrote it as a bit of an academic text, we wanted it to be the kind of thing that a general reader could pick up and understand and also would find accessible in terms of price. Like a lot of textbooks, you know, they cost 100 to multiple hundreds of pounds. And I mean, none of us are paying that for them. Right. So. Yeah. Krysia Waldock No, exactly. We don't earm enough as academics to be able to buy that. Amy Pearson No. Krysia Waldock So I'm guessing because we're in our mental health series, you've touched on this a little bit, but I think it might be really good to unpack a bit more about the link between kind of masking and trauma, well-being distress, all those kinds of things you're starting to touch on that, that the kind of in the last answer. Amy Pearson Yeah. So there's a really complicated relationship here. I think that takes several different things into account. So one of the things that we see is that masking requires a significant amount of energy. So it's cognitively taxing despite the fact that we can engage with masking an unconscious manner. It starts off as conscious in some way. So we respond to the way that people. Are treating us or viewing us and we think about how we might prevent them from doing that in future. Change ourselves as a result, and so it means that we're having to think about what we're doing and think about how other people are viewing us and then think about how to respond to that. So lots of things to think about at the same time, lots going on in your head, which means that all the things that are coming in socially, things like sensory information, other aspects of social interaction that you might be having to focus on. So understanding what someone says, making sure you don't misinterpret that it's all adding up to a really high level of pressure, and that pressure can lead to experiencing aspects of burnout, so feeling really cognitively exhausted, struggling to think and experiencing things like brain fog, or difficulty with using speech. It can also lead to physical signs of exhaustion, right? Sort of like feeling like you can't get up and move around, and you need to spend more time in bed. So I think that's one thing in itself. The other thing is the long term mental health implication of experiencing stigma. And having to again engage in masking as a result, so internalising over time that there is something inherently wrong with you that other people think you are different in a bad way. It's unsurprisingly has a really negative impact on your mental health, so it can lead like it that it shouldn't be surprising that when you know people treat you like there is something wrong with you, that you experience negative outcomes as a result. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Amy Pearson Heightened levels of anxiety and depression. A lot of heightened stress and we also know that people who experience stigma are more likely to experience other negative life events, right? So things like social exclusion, homelessness, lower levels of employment. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Amy Pearson And so on and so on. It all had adds up to what we call a high level of minority stresses. So things that we see in people from minority communities that they're way more likely to experience, that gives them a higher stress burden. And so we're seeing these negative mental health outcomes directly related to that experience of stigma.We've also seen the relationship with suicidality in particular, and there's some really interesting work from Sarah Cassidy on this on the experience of thought of belongingness. So people engage in massing because they want to belong, they want to be included.And then having people kind of bump you back from that and reject you socially? Can really impact negatively on people's mental health and and heighten the risk of suicidal ideation. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Amy Pearson Which again really grim. So you've got the experience of burnout from engaging and masking itself. You've got the experience of stigma there leading to difficulties with mental health.And then there's all the stuff that sits around that too. So some of the things that we found is that masking seems to be highly related to the experience of things like violence and victimisation. So autistic people are at higher risk of those experiences across the lifespan. And as I've said, they often master, try and stay safe, but actually it can put people at higher risk, a further victimisation because of, you know, compliance and people pleasing becoming part of masking. So people tend to experience at a much higher level of violence, which then feeds back into that experience of higher distress and poorer outcomes. And so again it is, it's just a Tempest of really unpleasant things for a lot of autistic people. It's really crucial for us to try and understand what's causing masking it and what we can do to try and minimise the pressure on people, because I think one of the one of the conversations we keep having about it right is that this concepts emerge. We talk about masking and then people go well. How do we unmask like it's something that you can just kind of pick up and take off. And like it is a physical mask. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Amy Pearson And it's not. It's a lifetime of coping mechanisms and various protective strategies that you've built up over time that become internalised into part of your identity and who you are. And so you can't really take that off. And it's not just your responsibility, it's the responsibility of other people to create a society where you can be comfortable and you can be more authentically yourself without a risk of violence, and risk of harm from others. Krysia Waldock 13:20 Definitely. And I think I always find some of the almost the narratives around just unmask always quite challenging, because for me, there's always that nuance there, and especially when kind of bringing it back kind of to the topic of our conversation kind of with faith communities, where faith communities often will have. Specifically, churches will have teachings around inclusion and everyone's welcome. We're all everyone's big family, using lots of kinship language which I always find quite difficult anyway.And for various reasons that actually when we support force people to when we kind of put that language in that space, we then create all sorts of strange tensions of actually how authentic can we be in that space? And churches are such a sensory space as well, where people can have. Amy Pearson Yeah. Krysia Waldock Depending on your tradition, you can have incense, noise, smells, tastes - very much like the wider world, where we might go to Tesco and there'll be music in the background. And there'll be food at the delicatessen. It's all very, very sensory space. And I wondered from because you're in such a fantastic position to be able to comment on this kind of what should faith communities know about some of the knowledge and the conversations that both academics and autistic people are actually having on masking. Amy Pearson That's such a good question, I think. I think you've hit on something really important there actually. And what you were saying just previously, which is that churches and and religious spaces have a lot of their own socio cultural norms. So there are expectations on how you might behave. There are expectations on the kinds of things you might experience and that might vary from faith to faith. But very typically they they have kind of a set of rules that you're meant to live by. And therefore a set of things that you might experience. And though those rules kind of at a high level of understanding might seem really inclusive, how they get operationalized in reality. So how we actually act based on them tends to default to kind of the norms of the group of people who are the core part of that. And what makes that, what that means is that they'll often be a little bit unaccessible to neurodivergent people who, I mean, you've got to learn the norms of broader society. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Amy Pearson And then respond to those masking order to fit in. I don't feel like you've got to do that in faith spaces, so the conversation can be geared towards inclusion, but actually not realise that the very nature of the kinds of interactions that you have might mean that some people feel like they have to act a very particular way to fit in. And not in the kind of way that everyone else is doing it. So everyone might think, well, these are kind of the rules that I've got to live by, right? So I need to treat other people in this particular manner, and I need to worship in this other particular manner. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Amy Pearson And that's how things should be done. But I think this actually it overlaps with a lot of other spaces. So things like education as well where there are lots of different ways of engaging with something and that might not look the same as how everyone else is doing it, but it's really important to give people the ability to access it. So I think being aware that people might come into those spaces and they might not act in the way that you expect. They might not look to be engaging with the community in the way that you expect. But that those people should still be welcome, and they still deserve a place. And I really think some of this probably for a lot of people comes down to applying those principles that they live by, like those core teachings in a really open and a really inclusive and organic manner. So thinking about them as as principles to live by rather than like, really specific things that you have to follow. Can automatically? I think open you up to taking a really inclusive approach to dealing with other people. So, you know, taking other people as they are, not making them feel like they need to change, welcoming them into a space. I think those things are really important and something that a lot of people I think on a on a theoretical level grasp. But then in terms of applying that practically in their lives, sometimes struggle a little bit with because of their internalisation of the norms that they've lived by. And the idea that, well, this is just how I've had to do it. So everyone has to do it like this as well. I think we can be a little bit more open and sometimes just a little bit more compassionate for people who are different. Krysia Waldock Yeah. And just for at least listeners know Amy and I had a fantastic conversation about this actually in my PhD Viva where some of my findings clearly showed that people theoretically grasped kind of the importance of why people needed to do things. But putting it into practise in terms of not so much people actively choosing it to do things, but kind of how people behave was often informed by what goes on in the outside world, which then led to this disjoint. Which I feel really passionately about when we think about making places inclusive. It's not necessarily about. Adding the olive bit here and there, or giving one person some training, it's about how we turn that whole culture. To be to, to really understand different ways of being and seeing and knowing and knowledge which is just so important. Amy Pearson Yeah, like I mean I could run on forever about how much I love Damian Milton's work and the double empathy problem, but I really think it gives us a way to step back and think about our experiences and how they might align or not align with other people. So for me, I really think the key to taking that inclusive approach in an applied and practical manner is to start to recognise when you might be biassed about how someone interacts. So I think a lot of people. At a theoretical level, understand that neural divergent people might appear different, right? They might speak differently, they might interact differently, they might have a different tone of voice than you expect. The communication might be different, but then they interact with someone who maybe comes across as very direct, very blunt, who doesn't have a lot of say expressive. Facial kind of expression going on and they think that person is called that person seems rude. Maybe that person's angry. And they haven't taken that step for a second to be like, oh. Maybe that person's neural divergent? Maybe that's just that person's way of interacting and being curious in the way that you interact with someone. So kind of like listening to what they're saying and and asking questions clarifying things before making assumptions about what they might mean or what their intention is. I think that has a huge impact on how we interact with other people. So being more open to how that difference might actually manifest. On a really practical level and thinking about how your own interpretations of a situation might inform kind of that social interaction between the two of you. It's so helpful. Endlessly useful. Krysia Waldock It really is. It is so useful and I think what I find certainly from so many conversations that I've had through my research, and also just informally with people in churches and trainings I've done in the past, is that people often go, they have an understanding, an understanding of all not everyone quite reads from the same rule book, but not quite exactly what that means in practise. Amy Pearson Yeah. And I think it sometimes it can really help you, particularly when you have like a strong emotional response to something. So when someone says something or does something and you kind of you could immediately jump to like a really bad faith interpretation. So you think you know that person's being rude. Or that person is trying to be hurtful in some way and there are a lot of times that I've stopped for a moment and I've kind of taken a mental step back and I've been like, well, they could mean it like this, but it could be this other thing going on. Actually, they might mean something different. Maybe there's been a bit of a breakdown in the way that we're communicating with each other. What if I ask them this question and then that's it's completely smoothed over the interaction that could have actually gotten quite tense if I hadn't have taken a moment to just think about other potential things that might have been going on instead of my initial kind of emotional jump tip? Well, that wasn't very nice. Krysia Waldock Yeah. And I wonder how can we bring all these really important ideas of conversations on neurodivergence and maybe also masking into these faith community contexts? Certainly what I've found sometimes is people see it to be quite a secular thing, which I find really interesting in itself. But actually churches are, and mosques and other faith spaces are comprised of people as well as other stuff as well. So I always find that really interesting. Amy Pearson Yeah. Yes. Krysia Waldock Kind of judged the line of what is what isn't stuff. Amy Pearson Yeah. So I, I mean, I personally think there's a lot going on here and I think some of this is informed by historical context as everything is with neural diversity in particular, like understanding how we've historically thought about difference and disability. That, you know, sometimes historically has not always been done in the same way that we're moving towards thinking about it now. So teen disability is something that is negative is something that is potentially like a punishment. That we might think of now as a very outdated way of thinking, in an explicit manner, but it's still influenced a lot of the ways that people interact with ideas around disability, with disabled people now, so though we might have really different ways of speaking about people, the way that we've internalised some of those, like kind of core beliefs about disability and and ableism more broadly. So the idea that it's bad to be disabled, disabled. I think that really does have a tangible impact. And some of that might come through in how we interpret kind of teachings and how we then use that to interact with people on a practical level. So I think being aware of that is really important. Obviously thinking changes over time and trying to be really inclusive and again, using those core principles as a way to think about how we interact with other people and treat them with kindness, make them feel welcome. Recognising that everyone is part of the same family, those are the things I think that can really help us to embedding. Because in reality, so thinking like what can we do to maximise accessibility for people? What can we do to make sure that everyone feels like they belong here instead of just kind of thinking about it as a path of space that people can enter? So being really active in the approach that we take to being like, right, how can we kind of encourage people who aren't engaging with us to do that? By making this somewhere that they feel like they can go on, that they want to be. Because I think that a lot of people, so people that we've we've spoken to in research before have kind of highlighted how faith spaces can be really make or break for them. So a lot of people have had quite bad experiences, but some people have also had really great experiences where they felt like they found a bit of a family. They felt like they found something that really is has brought a lot of joy in Richmond to their lives and particularly can be a support for things like mental health difficulties. So finding those communities where there is a huge amount of compassion and kindness. And people that can support each other have shared interest. Can really be like a buffer against those negative experiences for well-being. So I think being aware of that and trying to kind of have that up to date knowledge is really important. I guess some of it comes down to training and it does come down to to kind of increasing the knowledge that you have about something. But a lot of it just comes down to to having more compassion and more empathy. For people who are a little bit different. Krysia Waldock Definitely, because I think especially when we look at some of the thing places that might offer training and they have started to pop up, I always wonder what kind of lens are they approaching kind of autistic people neurodivergent people's lives with? How are they understanding? Just that people know divergent people, disabled people more broadly. And actually the kind of thing that for me, I always find that autistic led information is generally about autism is generally always much, much better, and I'd always heavily recommend that kind of side. But actually it's not necessarily always about having access to stuff that you have to pay for. Sometimes people who are the most. Informed in a way are the ones are the ones that are really. I almost say reflexive, but it's quite academic word. Curious another word, I use quite a lot as well. Just interested in people and we'll suspend that. Those judgements really quite well. Just reading people who are nosy is the wrong word, but just interested in people and want to know each kind of person's intricacies in the way that they are as them almost in a way. Amy Pearson Yeah. I agree with that. I mean, I frequently refer to myself as nosy. So I say like that's, that's why I love qualitative research, because I love finding out about people. I am nosy by nature, but I think it is that curiosity of learning about people and their motivations and where they're coming from, because humans are the most complex thing, right, like they're so notoriously messy and complicated. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Amy Pearson And yet endlessly fascinating. I mean, I obviously think that's a psychologist. But you know, I think it, I think it gives us a way to bring that curiosity to our interactions with people. Krysia Waldock Yeah. And I think in a way that curiosity can help break down this divide of, well, this information belongs in this box, and this information belongs in this box. And I think as someone who does a lot of interdisciplinary conversations across people, sometimes people go why are you sitting in this very weird place between two boxes? And actually, it's almost we need to be able to kind of be really interested about lots of different things. Helps us inform. Amy Pearson Yeah. Krysia Waldock More about kind of people and the way society works. In general. Amy Pearson Yeah. And I actually it got me thinking for a second there, just thinking about kind of neural divergent and autism specifically in faith spaces. Is that I think sometimes there's this perception of, like, autistic people as like, you know, super rational and not interested in in the spiritual experience as much. And actually I think faith spaces can bring things that are inherently actually quite accessible to neurodivergent people. So things like a core set of principles that you might live by, spaces that do have kind of some expectations routine. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Amy Pearson All of the traditions and the rituals that a lot of people find really enriching to their lives. And so kind of being able to recognise that as something that might be core to a lot of people's joy and their experience and then being like, OK, how can we facilitate that? How can we recognise that and kind of encourage that? I don't think it's a bad thing. Krysia Waldock Yeah, I don't either. And it always slightly annoys me when there's this rhetoric of autistic people are always very. You can be rational and religious or have faith is very much kind of autistic. People are this very narrow form of rationality when there's lots of different types. So it's almost about being curious around actually, certainly from my experiences, every single church I've been in has at least one or two autistic people in, if not more, same as universities, same as school. Amy Pearson Yeah. Krysia Waldock Same as when I go to Tesco down the road in Gravesend, there are going to be people there who attend, who work there, who are neurodivergent. It's just the way it is. So we get, you know, we're everywhere, we're not adjusted kind of when we think about what it means to be autistic. I think sometimes we conceptualise autistic people to be a very certain way rather than thinking of how things like culture. Amy Pearson Yeah. Krysia Waldock And religion, which obviously are two distinct different things, can then intertwine and change. How just how we are as people? Amy Pearson Yeah, that's I think that that sums it up really is that we are everywhere. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Amy Pearson Which sounds quite threatening. It's not. We like there are. There are autistic people in all of the spaces that you will go into. We're not rare, as was one's thought. We are. We are everywhere. We are in your schools. We are in your face faces. Sometimes we're in your home and I think recognising that that kind of autistic people are are not a rarity. They're not something that you're. Not likely to encounter. We're just people. Actually can help people to recognise sometimes that I think a little bit that bias they might have. Krysia Waldock Yeah. And I wonder what advice you'd give to faith communities that do want to learn a bit more about masking, who've gone all this sounds like a really interesting conversation. What would device resources, ideas. Tips would you give them? Amy Pearson Yes, I would. I would engage with work from other autistic people to learn about it. And actually I would recommend Kieran's work. So Kieran Rose and the autistic advocate, my wonderful friend and collaborator, has a website with a lot of blog posts on that are really accessible reads and I think Kieran's got some really great resources on there. There are also I mean there are there are numerous. People doing TikTok videos, I feel like I'm I'm too old. For Tiktok, and far too easily distracted to download Tiktok, because I think it would ruin my life. But social media. Some people find a useful way to learn about these things. I would say that sometimes the information on social media can be heavily underpinned by individual experience, right? So it might not be that it's incorrect. It might just be a little bit limited in terms of the scope. But I think blogs from autistic people. Reading about it on there. There's a lot of academic work emerging in this area, some of which is quite accessible and some of which is obviously like a little bit less so. So there's our book, I think Damian's written about it. I mean, he's been talking about this for years. System of Damian's kind of earlier work around 2016. Was talking about math going and so I think that's quite nice. A mismatch of saliences I I think a fairly accessible read. All of the essays and they were quite sure, quite short. Trying to think I'm like, I've taken all of my books into work, so they're not on the shelf here. Actually, Pete Warmby's book untypical talks quite a lot about masking, and I think Pete's work is again really accessible for a general audience. So I think that's a really lovely recommend. But yeah, those would be my kind of key go to's Kieran's website also helpfully has a huge list of books about autism about neurodiversity. That come from a really affirming perspective. That are aimed at lots and lots of different audiences. And so that's usually where I direct people like if you want to read more about this, this is like a treasure trove of recommendations for you. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Yeah. Because Kieran's work, when I first started doing my research, I didn't actually read your book until after I'd written the chapter. That's echoed your book. And I went back reading it. I went hang on. Both of are kind of what I found and what you've written, even though I'm not. We hadn't crossed obviously path in that way. Obviously, we'd known each other before, but we hadn't. I hadn't read that book. I went. Hang on. We're both thinking this in a similar way about this, which I found really interesting. Amy Pearson Yeah. Yes. Krysia Waldock And I guess if anyone does want to know more, we also had a podcast episode on an autoethnography that I did in October last year, which I put in the show notes, which was on masking in faith communities, that also, although it's a little bit more academic, you don't have to pay to access it, that's 6 pages long and it's really story based as well. So it helps give that kind of distinct flavour that some of the stuff that's really faith community related that then Kieran's work competes work with actually then really make even more accessible and break it down even further. Amy Pearson Yeah. And I think like for me, I mean, it's why I love reading your thesis so much as well was that there are so many things in there that I was like, yes, yes, more of this, more people need to be talking about these things. And so I'm like, I'm excited for you to publish it. So lots more people can read it. Krysia Waldock Yeah. Yes. So obviously, we'll put all the books that we've suggested and discussed in the show notes and the podcast episode we spoke about as well. But if people who are listening want to contact you or get in contact or follow you on social media, how is the best way for them to reach you? Amy Pearson Oh, that is an excellent question. So you can, I mean people can drop me an e-mail on amy.pearson@durham.ac.uk. I tend to discourage people from emailing me too much just because my inbox is constantly on fire. And I receive a huge volume of e-mail and so I can sometimes take me a really long time to respond. But I also have a blue sky. Which is @dramypearson and I tend to use that to talk about work related things. And so all autism related stuff, things that we've got going on in the centre for Neurodiversity and Development at Durham, I tend to post on there. I do not spend much time now on the place that shall not be named, that we all had to exit us from. So yeah, that would probably be the best way to get in contact with me. Krysia Waldock Super. So thank you so much to our listeners and for Amy for joining us for this episode. If you have any questions, you can message us at @autismtheology on Blue Sky or Instagram, or you can send us an e-mail at cat@abdn.ac.uk, even if it's just to say hi, we'd love to hear from you and we look forward to you listening with us next time.