WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.581 --> 00:00:12.871 Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. 00:00:13.701 --> 00:00:19.701 This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education. 00:00:20.121 --> 00:00:24.471 Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com. 00:00:24.971 --> 00:00:27.731 I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast. 00:00:27.821 --> 00:00:35.711 And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. 00:00:36.331 --> 00:00:38.881 A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords. 00:00:39.216 --> 00:00:40.586 Only stuff that works. 00:00:41.632 --> 00:00:42.332 Hello, everyone. 00:00:42.362 --> 00:00:56.382 It's just me again today, sharing some opinions about things that I have experienced in the past twenty-plus years training teachers in explicit instruction and coaching teachers in explicit instruction. 00:00:57.152 --> 00:01:03.032 And the thing I wanna talk about today is how long things take to implement. 00:01:03.373 --> 00:01:14.223 sometimes we think things are gonna take longer than they should to implement, and some things can be implemented much more quickly than we think. 00:01:14.223 --> 00:01:24.583 So I want to identify a couple of those things, one in each, one in each area, one that we can do more quickly, and then one that takes a little bit longer than we think. 00:01:25.503 --> 00:01:34.172 And one of the things that I wanna talk about today is just how much teachers need to know about the science of learning. 00:01:34.872 --> 00:01:45.542 I think there are many people, and I agree with them, who say this is something, science of learning is something that should have been brought up during their teacher training program. 00:01:46.102 --> 00:01:56.172 Teachers come out of their, their teacher prep never knowing about cognitive load, never knowing about working memory, never knowing about retrieval, never knowing on and on and on. 00:01:56.742 --> 00:01:57.602 And I think it's true. 00:01:57.602 --> 00:02:11.926 It would've been nice for them to know, but it's not only teachers coming out of the, out of the program, it's experienced teachers who will go to a training and say, "Gosh, I wish I'd have known this, when I started my career." 00:02:12.726 --> 00:02:22.096 So I think it's important, you know, and people will say, "Teachers need to know why things are important. We can't just tell them to do things without telling them why." And I agree. 00:02:23.016 --> 00:02:23.636 I agree. 00:02:23.636 --> 00:02:37.206 The question is: How long does it take to get this information across to teachers, to deliver this content to teachers about science of learning that is critical to change practice in the classrooms? 00:02:37.246 --> 00:02:39.866 Because it's not about learning the science of learning. 00:02:39.866 --> 00:02:41.966 It's not about knowing why. 00:02:42.226 --> 00:02:43.216 It's about doing. 00:02:43.486 --> 00:03:05.396 It's about changing practices in the classroom, changing instructional practices that allow students to learn more content more quickly and to be able to move through that learning hierarchy, you know, from acquisition through fluency to, uh, actually generalizing an application and using this content that we wanna teach. 00:03:06.036 --> 00:03:27.883 So having said that, one of the things that I've observed is, people will say, "Well, we need to know this. We need to present this to the teachers." And there will be, you know, some sort of proclamation about, you know, we're gonna implement science of learning, and in the first year, we are gonna train all the teachers in the science of learning. 00:03:28.491 --> 00:03:31.121 And I'm thinking the first year. 00:03:32.611 --> 00:03:35.741 So when do you expect, uh, impact in the classroom? 00:03:36.921 --> 00:03:43.631 Now, do I think that teachers need to know about cognitive load and, and working memory? 00:03:43.721 --> 00:03:44.671 Absolutely. 00:03:45.361 --> 00:03:47.171 The question is, how much? 00:03:47.481 --> 00:03:58.298 How much do they need to know before they are getting, some training, some tips, some techniques, some strategies, and how to use those in the classroom during a lesson? 00:03:59.318 --> 00:04:02.776 Now, I know that knowing is important. 00:04:03.436 --> 00:04:04.596 Again, I agree. 00:04:05.126 --> 00:04:10.486 The question is, is knowing something gonna change behavior? 00:04:11.626 --> 00:04:14.566 Now, I'm gonna use a couple, couple examples for this. 00:04:15.146 --> 00:04:17.106 First one is, um, smoking. 00:04:17.836 --> 00:04:23.956 Do you know that we still, in this country, around the world, there are many, many people who smoke? 00:04:24.391 --> 00:04:32.091 And do you know that they kn- understand, they know that there's research that smoking is not good for you? 00:04:32.551 --> 00:04:36.191 In fact, there's research that says smoking is very harmful to you. 00:04:36.271 --> 00:04:39.191 There's not much, there's not much disputing that. 00:04:40.731 --> 00:04:43.651 Is that what they need to stop smoking? 00:04:44.591 --> 00:04:46.761 Is that what you do with a friend who's smoking? 00:04:46.761 --> 00:04:48.871 You give them, uh, one more research paper? 00:04:49.441 --> 00:04:51.171 I don't think that h- I don't think that helps. 00:04:51.856 --> 00:04:54.126 what about, uh, research on weight loss? 00:04:54.556 --> 00:05:01.546 You know that there's a lot of people who are overweight in this country, and I'm gonna raise my hand. 00:05:01.546 --> 00:05:02.506 I'm in one of those. 00:05:02.936 --> 00:05:03.546 But you know what? 00:05:03.576 --> 00:05:06.516 I already know the research on eating well. 00:05:06.769 --> 00:05:09.569 I already understand that I need to exercise more. 00:05:09.609 --> 00:05:10.729 I know all that. 00:05:11.459 --> 00:05:13.249 I don't need one more study. 00:05:14.119 --> 00:05:18.669 What I need is to start implementing those things. 00:05:19.119 --> 00:05:24.069 I don't need to know one more time about the limitations of working memory. 00:05:24.479 --> 00:05:28.209 I need to know, what do I do with this information? 00:05:28.469 --> 00:05:32.943 How do I get it into my lessons so that it's implemented in my lessons? 00:05:33.393 --> 00:05:43.326 Now, when we think about this, the question becomes, how much does a teacher need to know before they go implement it? 00:05:43.976 --> 00:05:48.776 Do they need, do we need to spend a year on all the studies? 00:05:49.304 --> 00:05:55.456 I really don't think anybody is gonna dispute Sweller's methodologies. 00:05:55.456 --> 00:06:03.406 Teachers understand when you tell them about cognitive load, when you tell them about limitations of working memory, they get it. 00:06:03.706 --> 00:06:04.726 You know why they get it? 00:06:05.296 --> 00:06:08.666 Because they have experienced it in their classroom. 00:06:09.266 --> 00:06:12.702 So the question is- What do they need to know? 00:06:12.732 --> 00:06:14.202 How much do they need to know? 00:06:14.562 --> 00:06:17.572 And then what's the next thing that they need to know? 00:06:18.322 --> 00:06:21.962 I say the next thing that they need to know is how to implement what's going on. 00:06:22.477 --> 00:06:32.287 Because the implementation, the changing of how we provide instruction based on this evidence that we have in the science of learning, is where it really matters. 00:06:32.377 --> 00:06:33.657 It's nice to know stuff. 00:06:33.977 --> 00:06:35.177 It's great to know stuff. 00:06:36.127 --> 00:06:38.847 But who do you think becomes the best artist? 00:06:39.447 --> 00:06:49.777 The one that studies how to do art for years, or the one who does some studying about how to do art and then goes and makes art? 00:06:50.277 --> 00:06:51.317 Who's the best teacher? 00:06:52.527 --> 00:07:01.037 The one that studies how to be a teacher all the time, or the one that studies how to become a teacher and implements those things in the classroom? 00:07:01.747 --> 00:07:06.427 So we need to consider how much is enough, how much is enough to get started. 00:07:07.177 --> 00:07:14.302 And we need to remember when we're doing this, when we're doing these trainings is, w- what if we're talking about cognitive load? 00:07:14.312 --> 00:07:15.982 What if we're talking about working memory? 00:07:15.982 --> 00:07:19.622 What if we're talking about all these things, and then what do we do in a training? 00:07:19.622 --> 00:07:22.422 We overload with all these concepts. 00:07:23.042 --> 00:07:26.912 What did we learn from, from Rosenshine or other evidence-based strategies? 00:07:27.752 --> 00:07:29.962 We learn a little, and then we practice. 00:07:30.022 --> 00:07:32.222 We learn a little, and then we practice. 00:07:32.502 --> 00:07:36.232 And not just practice, practice with feedback. 00:07:37.192 --> 00:07:43.482 So the first point I wanna make, do teachers need to know about the science of learning? 00:07:43.602 --> 00:07:48.228 Yes Do they need to know it at the PhD level? 00:07:48.638 --> 00:07:49.228 No. 00:07:49.748 --> 00:07:58.998 They need to learn it at a practical level so that they can go into their classrooms and implement this content in their lesson plans. 00:07:59.968 --> 00:08:10.748 So what I'm saying is, it doesn't take as long as you think it's gonna take to provide this information so that teachers can use it in a meaningful way. 00:08:11.818 --> 00:08:20.286 In fact, when you think about how you are going to provide this content, think about how you're providing it in a meaningful way. 00:08:21.026 --> 00:08:22.216 What's a meaningful way? 00:08:22.306 --> 00:08:23.346 In context. 00:08:24.376 --> 00:08:29.076 Not just theoretical knowledge, but in context. 00:08:30.196 --> 00:08:36.796 And what's interesting to me a-about this, again, I'm, I'm arguing against folks, and some of you are gonna say, "How is this? 00:08:36.796 --> 00:08:37.876 This is just a straw man. 00:08:37.876 --> 00:08:50.236 You're putting straw men up." Well, in my conversations, I will hear people say, you know, before they go and implement things, they need to know a lot about this. 00:08:50.956 --> 00:08:54.216 And two things that are interesting to, to me about that argument. 00:08:54.216 --> 00:09:04.336 The first one is, it is totally contrary to what many would argue vehemently against about how we teach mathematics. 00:09:04.396 --> 00:09:05.246 Hang on there with me. 00:09:05.256 --> 00:09:08.211 You know, how did we get from-- how did we get to mathematics? 00:09:08.881 --> 00:09:14.071 Well, there are people who say kids need to know concepts. 00:09:14.101 --> 00:09:21.706 They need to understand the concepts before they do anything with regards to, calculations or anything. 00:09:21.746 --> 00:09:24.976 That, that first comes concepts and then calculations. 00:09:25.610 --> 00:09:37.718 There are many people who think that science of learning things are important, who think that all that whole concept before any type of procedural learning is important. 00:09:37.718 --> 00:09:39.448 They would argue against that all day. 00:09:39.478 --> 00:09:43.868 Yet how do they present the content of science and learning to teachers? 00:09:44.638 --> 00:09:46.278 We have to give them it all first. 00:09:46.328 --> 00:09:47.628 They have to understand why. 00:09:47.638 --> 00:09:50.448 They have to understand this totally before they do it. 00:09:51.460 --> 00:10:02.040 The other argument for taking so much time in doing, training in the science of learning for teachers is that we're afraid of lethal mutations. 00:10:02.721 --> 00:10:13.631 you read about a, a teacher doing retrieval practice, and it's totally wrong, and it doesn't work, and it's a waste of time, and then we call it a lethal mutation 00:10:14.847 --> 00:10:19.677 And I'm, and I'm thinking, "Really?" You know, here's what I know about classrooms. 00:10:20.357 --> 00:10:22.207 Nothing fatal, nothing final. 00:10:22.347 --> 00:10:23.437 There's no lethal. 00:10:23.957 --> 00:10:25.077 There's no lethal about it. 00:10:25.127 --> 00:10:26.187 It didn't work. 00:10:26.707 --> 00:10:30.747 Gosh, there's so much that we, that we do in our classroom that we know work, but guess what? 00:10:30.917 --> 00:10:35.417 We use that data, we use that formative data, and we change how we do it. 00:10:36.927 --> 00:10:43.037 But what about a person who doesn't realize that it's a lethal mutation? 00:10:43.057 --> 00:10:45.447 Let's go with that for a while, that terminology. 00:10:46.127 --> 00:10:56.878 The reason they don't know it is because there's no follow-up in the information that was given during these PDs about the why So we know retrieval practice works. 00:10:57.658 --> 00:11:04.358 Teacher goes in, does it in a way that's not effective with a lethal mutation, and what happens? 00:11:04.358 --> 00:11:09.168 They walk away because they walk away and never try it again because it didn't work. 00:11:09.578 --> 00:11:10.998 You told me it was gonna work. 00:11:11.038 --> 00:11:11.948 It didn't work. 00:11:13.228 --> 00:11:13.998 Well, guess what? 00:11:14.328 --> 00:11:26.283 We need to follow up that training with some coaching, some observation, and feedback to let people know that they are doing it. 00:11:26.593 --> 00:11:27.413 They're close. 00:11:27.893 --> 00:11:28.583 They're doing it. 00:11:28.643 --> 00:11:34.423 You're doing the retrieval practice, but if you change this, this is the piece that's gonna make it, that's gonna make it effective. 00:11:35.133 --> 00:11:46.399 If we don't do that Everybody's going to leave a PD with another idea of what it's gonna look like in their classroom, and many times it doesn't work out. 00:11:46.549 --> 00:11:47.099 Why? 00:11:47.119 --> 00:11:49.419 Because we don't have any follow-up coaching. 00:11:49.819 --> 00:12:01.506 We don't have any follow-up feedback, any way for the teachers to know that, first of all, congratulations for trying it, and second of all, we need to do that a little bit differently. 00:12:01.916 --> 00:12:05.056 That's the other thing that I worry about when I hear a lethal mutation. 00:12:05.656 --> 00:12:12.506 My goodness, when I hear about a teacher trying something that we talked about in, in a training, I wanna congratulate them. 00:12:12.506 --> 00:12:13.306 I wanna hug them. 00:12:13.306 --> 00:12:28.896 I wanna say, "Thank you for stepping out and trying something different." It shouldn't be, "Oh," you know, "oh, that's a lethal muta…" You know, let's, let's pat them on the back for trying, and then answer the questions about why it didn't work and, and how it can get better. 00:12:29.673 --> 00:12:41.323 first point, we can move much more quickly from theory to practice if there is follow-up coaching on what we're asking teachers to do. 00:12:41.789 --> 00:12:44.259 So that's something that we can do more quickly. 00:12:45.010 --> 00:12:50.811 What about, uh, something that takes, longer than we thought it was gonna take? 00:12:51.801 --> 00:12:56.541 And that is something I just described is doing things well. 00:12:57.028 --> 00:13:06.268 I've worked with many administrators who have, uh, been with me as we have, uh, observed teachers who we've worked with. 00:13:06.378 --> 00:13:11.788 And when I talk about administrators observing, administrators are in from the very beginning. 00:13:11.788 --> 00:13:13.118 They're in from the training. 00:13:13.238 --> 00:13:16.138 They're in, in coaching cycles when we're planning lessons. 00:13:16.138 --> 00:13:17.048 They watch lessons. 00:13:17.048 --> 00:13:18.308 They watch debriefings. 00:13:19.258 --> 00:13:32.721 And so when I'm saying that a tea-- when an administrator who was with me walks out of a lesson and is just so disappointed and says, "Jiminy, they didn't do anything right. 00:13:32.721 --> 00:13:33.381 They…" You know? 00:13:33.661 --> 00:13:44.941 And what's interesting about this, three weeks ago, the administrator didn't know anything about what we were looking for because it was the first time they went through the training. 00:13:45.621 --> 00:13:57.501 But now all of a sudden, the expectation is for that teacher to be perfect in every one of these components that we talk about, all the science of learning elements that we want to include in these lessons. 00:13:58.031 --> 00:14:00.581 They're disappointed because the teacher isn't perfect. 00:14:01.511 --> 00:14:03.491 That is what takes longer. 00:14:04.801 --> 00:14:05.931 That's what practice is. 00:14:06.691 --> 00:14:17.481 Deliberate practice, practice with feedback, practice about now that we have context for where to hang all these science of learning elements. 00:14:18.291 --> 00:14:24.991 Now we can talk about the science of learning in a practical way, in an application sort of way. 00:14:25.373 --> 00:14:31.001 So I think teachers can learn the content more quickly. 00:14:32.391 --> 00:14:47.821 What takes time is to become expert in those things, and even becoming expert is a relative term because I, I, I t- I truly believe that there's no such thing as a, as a perfect lesson. 00:14:47.831 --> 00:14:51.329 There's no such thing as, being perfect in the classroom. 00:14:51.879 --> 00:15:02.829 We just get better, and we're dealing with 30 kids who we don't know what's gonna happen that day, and we do the best we can based on, based on what we know. 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:04.669 Perfection? 00:15:04.959 --> 00:15:05.489 No. 00:15:06.329 --> 00:15:07.249 Getting better? 00:15:07.429 --> 00:15:08.129 Yes. 00:15:08.319 --> 00:15:09.549 Using the evidence? 00:15:09.739 --> 00:15:15.874 Yes That's where I think, you know, we beat ourselves and our teachers up a little bit. 00:15:16.004 --> 00:15:50.753 So just to wrap up here Teachers don't need to know as much as we think they need to be able to get started to utilize many of the principles in the science of learning Once they are implementing though things from the science of learning, we need to be sure to give them some grace so that they can understand now why when they're doing something differently, it may or may not fit what the science of learning and that evidence base will direct us to the more effective type of instruction 00:15:51.342 --> 00:15:56.452 I hope this was helpful I hope you this was a little bit interesting. 00:15:56.462 --> 00:16:11.092 I hope you recognized yourself somewhere because when we recognize ourselves somewhere about something that we're doing then we realize I can do better and that's all we can expect, not perfection, just being better. 00:16:12.499 --> 00:16:15.139 If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. 00:16:15.439 --> 00:16:21.009 Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:16:21.699 --> 00:16:31.779 You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky. 00:16:32.189 --> 00:16:32.619 Tesscg. 00:16:33.609 --> 00:16:48.979 com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.