Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome, Grisha.
I always love, starting on a bit of a giggle so it has
everybody a little bit relaxed.
So I'm really excited to have you here today.
So the good old questions.
Where in this lovely world are you and what's your business with dogs?
Grisha: Well, I am in the west coast of the United States in
a place that we call Oregon.
Um, it's the land of the Saslaw people.
So I live on a river, um, and yeah, it's beautiful.
Sunny day.
And what was your question besides for that?
Where am I?
Anke: What?
Grisha: Your
Anke: business with dogs.
Oh, right on the dog shows, or let's just touch on dogs.
Grisha: I'm like, I'm like a dog.
Um, so yes.
So behavior is my specialty.
I developed bat behavior adjustment training, which is a technique
for socializing dogs for either, um, socializing dogs who have
already developed reactivity or, you know, trauma or some sort of
bad experience or, um, puppies.
So it's basically like how to teach social skills to dogs through this
really, um, slow, steady, careful dance where dogs have a lot of power, a lot of
agency of choosing where they get to go.
Anke: So I have an online
Grisha: school and uh, books and that sort of thing.
Anke: Yeah.
Awesome.
Now.
I'm obviously curious what, what that stands for and also like how it's,
how the approach is different from, you know, what people might know from
puppy classes and you know, and other training methods they've come across.
So like, what sparked you to create it?
Because obviously you weren't happy with what was there?
Grisha: Right, exactly.
So that stands for Behavior Adjustment training.
And the idea is that we adjust the, the behavior, but we don't,
like, we change the behavior, but we don't change the reason.
So the behavior exists for a reason.
Like dogs are barking because they need distance or they
need something to move closer.
Like it's usually they're trying to change their environment somehow.
And so rather than saying, we're just gonna give you a treat, or we're gonna
punish you, which punishment isn't my jam.
But rather than those two schools, if not, it's really about how can we
help the dog know how to, in like to interact with their environment in ways
that are also like work for us humans.
So, um, so that's one way it's majorly different is that it's not
treat heavy, although we certainly use treats in certain parts of it.
Um, and punishment definitely has no place at that.
And, um, yeah, so it's, I developed it because of.
I had, let's see, I was teaching, this was in, I had a dog school in
Seattle before I started traveling the world and then doing online work.
And it was, I had probably four aggressive dog classes a week.
Um, so classes, four dogs with aggression problems.
And um, I had my own dog, peanut, my soulmate dog, and he was still
reactive, so he was barking at people, barking at other dogs.
And it's one of the most embarrassing things, right?
To have a dog and be like, I'm the on, if you don't train, don't talk to me.
Because I'm like too busy shoving treats in my dog's face right now to talk to you.
And um, and so, you know, I had worked through his reactivity quite
a bit and in terms of like, if he was in working mode, so like if he was.
Actively engaged with me, like sitting or laying down or whatever.
Like he could look trained, uh, but he was not happy like he was.
It's kinda like if you go to work and you hate your job and you're like, I am here
and I'm gonna have that smile on my face, but like, I really don't wanna be here.
And that's how he was with other dogs and people and.
That's a really, like, no, that's a icky place.
Like I don't want that for him and I didn't want it for me.
And so, you know, I kept going to workshops and conferences and that
kind of thing and, and cobbled together this, this way of being that.
And then sort of took a, a quantum leap of agency, of giving a dog more
control where I'm like, you know what, if we just give a chance to figure
this out from a really safe distance.
Because in the, like, socialization, the way it works in the first place
is like, you know, they're assessing, um, you know, am I safe here?
What do I do here?
And if you're, if you're too close, they go to their knee jerk reaction of like,
I don't feel safe here, and then I'm gonna bark or flee or freeze or whatever.
And, but if you're at the right distance, then they're like, oh.
Well, let me think about this.
Actually.
I have these other tools.
I can sniff the ground, I can look away, I can be curious.
Uh, and so what happens over time is like if you as a human are sort of
like managing the distance and all, I can explain that, uh, how, but if we
manage the distance so that they're kind of always surfing at the edge of
like curiosity and they're never, or ideally not over the line of like, oh
my God, what am, you know, panic attack.
What am I doing here?
Then they start to, to, you know, come up with a whole new set of
behaviors that, that, you know, works.
So we, you know, they look like the dog that we want them to look
like, where they're like, oh, hi, there's another dog, and let's go
sniff and, you know, do the things.
Hmm.
So, and he ended up being, so my dog peanut ended up being, um, a therapy
dog to go to assisted living facilities.
And like, he enjoyed that.
And we had, you know, a new dog in our home and he was like, you know, good.
Good friends and, and could, you know, just be in the world.
Um, and it was, yeah, it was, it was like one of the most satisfying
experiences of my life to have him be able to go to these other places and,
and not have to micromanage him anymore.
And it does take time.
Anke: Yeah.
So, oh, I love that.
I love that because it is, it is heartbreaking to see, you know, when you
think they kind of, it's overwhelming and there's sort of, you know, we don't
know how, how to help 'em, you know?
It is.
Mm-hmm.
And this, I mean, I guess that's the thing.
Like if you're a trainer, the pressures on, you know, the judgment and people
would be quite like, I don't know whether it's true, but you definitely feel it.
Grisha: Right, exactly.
I might be projecting, right?
It's probably more in my head than theirs, but you never know, right?
Yeah.
Anke: I mean, it is true though.
You know, if I'm like, oh, you're a dog trainer, I, I kind of think,
well, I kind of would expect your dog.
Grisha: Right.
Yeah, it is, it is funny.
It's like that, I dunno if you have that phrase, the
cobbler's children have no shoes.
Yes.
Yeah.
So yeah.
I mean, my, I, my husband is a woodworker and our cabinets are not perfect,
and our dogs are also not perfect.
And that's okay.
Like they're the amount of perfect, they're not, yeah.
Anke: Whatever.
Yeah.
I mean, it's not about, I don't know.
I never think, like, I've never like.
The idea of obedience, I always thought like, I want you to listen to me
enough to be safe so I can call you.
You don't get run over by a car.
Like it's about, it's about, it's about that.
So how did you even get started to get into that profession?
I.
Grisha: Well, before I was a dog trainer, I was a mathematician.
And, uh, yeah, and then I got a, I was teaching at a college
or university and I got a dog.
And, um, before I could get that dog, my partner at the time, he said, well,
we need to read some books about dogs.
And so I read like 50 books in one summer and wrote little
reports about each one 'cause.
At the time I was a graduate student as well.
And so, um, uh, yeah, so we got a dog and, uh, I, I just loved the, just the
complexity of behavior and also just the, the capacity to understand like I.
If I do this, they will understand this and so like it, yeah, it was
just a really good fit for me.
And then, so I volunteered at the shelter and did that for a while in the classes.
Well, first in the, in the shelter, like just training the dogs one-on-one and then
started volunteering in the classes and then eventually started my own business.
And then kind of like siphoned my, my time away.
So I was like gradually teaching less math and more dogs and
then eventually took the plunge.
Anke: Wow.
So what was the experience like?
Was it what you thought it would be?
Because know, most of the time when people feel to sort of start
their first business, you're like.
It's all exciting and then it kind of hits you, right?
So, yeah,
Grisha: so I mean, there's definitely parts of it that were
like, this is exactly what I wanted.
And I mean, I've been doing it for 20 years, so it's obviously, I.
Plenty of what I, I wanted.
Um, and there was definitely a surprise in terms of timing.
Like I thought I was doing dog training nights and weekends because that's
when I had time to do dog training.
And then it turned out like that's when everybody else also
has time to do dog training.
And so for many years it was like only nights and weekends, right?
Like classes and private lessons and things.
And then I got enough experience that, that I could sort of like
carve a niche as like, you know.
I, I only work in the day and people would then have to hire me in the daytime.
Um, but yeah, there was definitely lots of nights and
weekends, so that was a surprise.
Um, also like the, this kind of vision of like, you get to take your dog with
you all the time, like that's not true.
Um, I mean, you can, like if your dog is like the helper dog for ag,
aggression, aggression, but um, it's not really great for them, honestly.
And so like, there's less of that too.
So at least for me,
Anke: oh.
Yeah, that makes, that makes sense.
So do you still work in person or is it all online now?
Grisha: It's, it's all online now.
Um, every so often I'll do, like, I'll work with a local person, just, you
know, because I can, because you can.
And just to keep my chops up a little bit.
Yeah.
And, and I usually tell them though that like, I don't do it for money locally
because, um, I have to say, because I don't like the responsibility of it.
So I'm fine like meeting with them for several sessions, but I'm just like.
You know what?
I don't wanna have to be somewhere at a specific time anymore.
It's just how my brain works.
And so I love the freedom of working through the computer now and, and
also, um, the way a lot of what we do is train other dog trainers.
I.
And, um, and so we, you know, we have like lots of different classes with, um,
different experts from around the world.
I have lots of classes in there as well, and then we do certification and things.
And so I'm really passionate about that area of it.
And, um, yeah, so I don't work locally as much anymore.
Anke: No, I can, I can totally understand because it's like the, the convenience
of working online and, and it's also, I mean, training dog trainers has this
leveraged way, so you're not just helping one dog, you know, you're helping the
person who can help hundreds of dogs.
Right.
So it's almost that.
Yeah.
Right.
Grisha: Yeah.
It's like that super benefit effect.
Like, if I help somebody Yeah.
Then they're, I know the ripple effect of their career is
like, I've helped tons of dogs.
Yeah.
And that does feel really good.
And I also, um, when I started this, I lived in Seattle and then
I moved to Alaska for five years.
And now I live in coastal Oregon in the middle of nowhere.
And so that is great for my dogs, which is nice.
And me, and there's like basically no customers here.
So if I had to do it locally, I would be a very, very, um, yeah.
Poor dog, dog.
Yeah,
Anke: yeah.
Grisha: Some places do
Anke: that.
Well, that makes, that makes, that makes perfect sense.
So, so the, the training courses you offer, are they mostly around,
uh, the bat, or, or is it, is it like a, um, a broader catalog or?
Grisha: It is a, yeah, the good, good question.
It's a broad catalog.
There's probably, I think about 50 of the classes I have taught.
Um, it's got 150, 160 classes I think about now, and so a good chunk of
them are either bat or bat philosophy.
I would say probably maybe like 30 of the classes are about that.
And, um, and then the rest are all the general things that we run into with dogs.
And it's similar to what you said in terms of we're not about obedience,
we are about helping dogs and people live together in community.
And so that means like how to, like I have a class that I, that I taught at a.
I was like a keynote speaker at a conference in the uk and we recorded
that, and that's on the website too.
And it's a class about how to track your dog, like how to pay
attention to their emotional state.
Um, and so that's a lot of what we do.
Anke: Yeah.
So what is the most common thing people come to you for?
Like if they would say, I would aggression, you know, like, yeah.
Yeah, I mean personally I'm thinking like to, to seek your help for, yeah.
Grisha: Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I mean I think it's there.
There's lots of different way, different reasons.
I mean, I think a lot of the people come for community.
They really are.
A lot of the dog trainers, it's a very lonely field because a lot of times
you're like the only dog trainer in your town, or the only positive dog
trainer, at least in like a certain area.
Right.
And then like sometimes if people, even if there are more, then sometimes there's
a weird, you know, competition thing.
Um, not always, which is good.
But um, so yeah, we just have this really lovely community and it's
like one of the safest places on the internet where people are just like,
we're here to lift each other up.
We're always kind.
It's a diverse space.
So it's like.
Um, so that's, I would say one of probably the main reason now that like, beyond the
curiosity of how do I learn all about all these different dog training things is
like, how can I get support as a, as a, um, as an individual and as a dog trainer?
'cause we also have classes like How to Human is one of
the classes that's in there.
Anke: Yeah.
Which is, so would, if I'm coming and I'm not a doc professional, could I
take your programs or would you say like they're specifically geared to towards
people who wanna do this professionally?
Grisha: So both.
Um, so yes, you could totally do it if you're not a professional
dog trainer and certification piece that you would just ignore, um, of
certain, like, you know, filling out forms and taking tests and things.
Um, but all of the classes, I, I, I appreciate being able to
speak to whoever is in the room.
And so the people we bring in do the same thing where it's like.
If we use a fancy word, there's usually some like regular
definition that goes with it.
And, and you know, there's a couple of business classes, so there's some classes
that are really more specific for dog trainers, but we have some, a set also
that's very specifically for the public.
Um, so it's super basic like.
I just got a puppy.
What do I do kind of class.
Um, so we have one called Empowered Puppy raising, for example.
Uh, that's really great.
Um, sort of step by step.
And it, and it goes along with a puppy class, like if you're taking a puppy
class in person for that social aspect, it's nice to still have some structure
in theory that like might be different from the local trainer to sort of add in.
Anke: So from, from anybody who, who seeks.
Oh no, I was, I was just kinda wondering like for anybody who seeks help from
a dog behaviorist or dog trainer, like, so would you say reactivity
aggression is the biggest kind of issue?
Or what, what are, what's sort of the most typical thing that people seek out?
Helpful for?
Grisha: Yeah, I, I mean it's, I, my, I'm a little skewed because
my aggression is my focus, right?
And so that's definitely the bread and butter of what comes to me.
And I would say like, probably for most trainers, it's either that
or sort of like a impulse control.
Like the dog is just like, I don't know what the rules are here.
You know, like, help me understand like what we're doing.
Um, so yeah, that's, those are the kind of the two things is either
dogs who are just like, it's a more of a translation problem.
'cause they know how to sit, they know how to lay down, they just don't know
when we want it and why they should.
Want to do it in that moment.
Um, and that the, the more of a, almost like a therapy, right?
Trauma informed, attachment informed, like how do we help the dog be in
their body in this space without feeling like they have to go bark at
everything or, you know, run away.
Anke: Yeah, I, I mean, I guess that, that makes a lot of sense
to me because if you, it's just like people, you know, if you are.
Freaked out, you know, yes, I know how to sit, but I might not be able to do
it when I'm like, you know, so, yeah.
I mean, so would you, yeah, it's, would you also look at the other
end of the lesion, I respect?
Grisha: Absolutely.
Yeah.
So in fact, we have, um, specifically with the leash, ironically, we have a
class called Stop Pulling, and most of my classes are about like what to do.
I just.
Decided to call that stopping pulling because that's what
most people search for.
Um, but the, in the stop pulling class, we actually have a whole section about
glimmers, about how to teach people to, um, have a cue, a specific way to
tell their nervous system that they're safe and that they can settle down.
Because dogs are co-regulating with us, right?
They're, we, when we're.
In a family, or even when we're just sort of next to each other,
our nervous systems are regulating together just like a flock of birds.
Like you scare one and then all of a sudden everybody's
like, bah, and they leave.
And same thing with dogs is that they're like.
Ah, okay.
That person is calm, so the chances of it being dangerous have just
gone down a little bit, right?
Because they're looking at us for information.
And so if we're on edge all the time, that's hard.
So a glimmer is the opposite of what's called a trigger.
So a trigger is like the thing that that reminds them that
they're in danger or whatever.
So they start barking.
And a glimmer is, is a sign of safety or belonging or whatever
else that we might need as.
As humans as well.
And so I teach people to, to do a practice in different places to generalize it
just like we do with dog training, of, of telling themselves that they are safe
and then doing a breathing exercise.
And so then that verbal cue of your safe or a hand signal of hand on heart,
for example, becomes a signal that, that they are, and so their nervous
system can calm down a little bit.
Anke: Mm, I can see that totally.
There's like be very, um, videos on how helpful because it's, it can be
like, you know, as you might imagine, these are my four who have crossed the
bridge by now, but, but the two boys, they, you know, also the environment
we're living in, so they, and I like little Leo, he got bitten when he was
11 months old and he was never quite the same with, with, you know, with Right.
Male dog, big male dogs in confined spaces.
He was fine on the beach, you know, when there's space.
And he was fine when he is off lead, but like when we would walk in the
little alleyway, you know, and I could really see, and I knew it
like rationally that I'm like, I'm scanning the horizon, like I'm tense.
But I also know the moment, like how am I supposed to re relax if I know
perfectly well in the next corner?
This neighbor's dog could be be right here.
You know?
So it was like, it's really like knowing that he isn't gonna be relaxed, you know?
And I can do, so it's like, it's hard to break that cycle, you know, when
you think like, I know he's gonna go mental much when there's a dog, so I'm
tense, then that's not gonna help him.
And so we can hype each other up, you know, the entire time.
So I think a breathing excellent like that would've.
Probably really helped to at least calm one.
Yeah.
1, 1, 1, 1 of us.
Yeah.
More
Grisha: calm baseline at least.
So that, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and you know, there's, there's a skillset part of it too, of like, if you
are, you know what to do in that scenario.
So, you know, we would rehearse.
The, the U-turn, for example, so that there is a like, here's what
I do in the situation so that like, that part of your brain can be
satisfied that I know what I will do.
And then the other part is like, and now that I know that I really am safe, let's
at least tell the nervous system that too.
Um, and also things like it might require conditioning the dog to wear a
muzzle so they're comfortably muzzled.
And so that if everything did go wrong, everybody would be safe.
Or it may be, um.
Yeah, just there's different things that, that, that can
be done in those situations.
And, and like I've, I've worked with dogs in Spain.
The, the roads are very narrow in some places, like the Simon Road, it's
like a sidewalk with, but it's a road.
Yeah.
It's very tiny.
Anke: Yeah.
I mean, especially while I was living.
Was the historic part of town where literally like I was living on the
wide road and I could touch both walls if I stretched my arms out, you know?
So that was like the main road, you know?
So yeah, there wasn't very far to go if, you know, if somebody would cross you.
It was definitely a tight space.
That's why we're not living there anymore.
So,
Grisha: so, yeah, I was gonna say, that's also part of the
thing is like choosing, right?
What's actually, where can the dog really be successful and where is it
more just like living in a war zone that's, it's constantly going to
re-trigger them and you, uh, yeah.
And we do have a class called Survival Skills for that kind of
scenario of like, if you have a dog and how do you get through like,
everyday life without, you know.
So, 'cause bat is really like long-term kind of therapy ish.
And then survival skills is like how Yeah.
How to just at least not have a terrible day today.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
There's, there's even an additional one called Urban Bat
that, uh, Vivian Ourian did.
And uh, yeah, so we have, uh, all those, like, we have this joke around, I
dunno if you remember the old Microsoft commercials, or maybe they're still
happening, but that says like, there's a, you know, there's an app for that.
Um, or maybe it's the Apple has that anyway.
Like, so we say there's a class for that.
'cause every, everything that, you know, we've been doing this long
enough that any questions, there's almost always a class for that.
Anke: I love that.
I love that.
So where can people go find those classes?
Like where can they go?
They go, I need a class, I need the survival class.
So where are we gonna send people?
Grisha: Yeah, so send them to grisha stewart.com.
Uh, so just my name and then I also just, I have to put a plug into another project
I'm working on called Stellar Village.
And so if you really wanna work on the human side of things, this is, it's a
separate online community space that, uh, I founded and I'm now a part of.
Co-owner of, and yeah, so Stellar Village, it's a folk school for the,
the skills of belonging and getting our own nervous system to be relaxed.
Anke: Wow.
I love that.
So we're gonna pop that link down below here as well.
So, because obviously we are part of the puzzle there, right?
So we, we can't just only work on the dog, you know, so.
Yeah.
Grisha: Yeah.
Awesome.
I think that's my e as.
Right was to go from this sort of like more like just train the dog to like, oh
wait, actually help the dog live with us and like, and then train the human side.
And now I'm really like, you know what?
If humans would just have a society where we could get along a lot better,
it would be, it would just like naturally flow to the how we work with dogs.
So.
That makes
Anke: perfect sense to me.
Thank you so much.
It was an absolute delight.
You're welcome.
And, um, yeah, I'll definitely pop those links below.
So with, with that wealth of, of knowledge for trainers and, you know, dog lovers
and we can make this a, a better place.
Thank you.
Let's do that.
Yeah.
Take care.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.