Rob: It is indeed a sad day for the world of the performing arts, for the
small screen and the big screen with the sad news of the passing of Mr.
David Warner,
Kevin: Yes, indeed.
Rob: And we here at Subspace Radio are here to reflect on Mr.
David Warner's career, especially in the annals of,
who would've thought, Star Trek.
Kevin: Yes it's our break between new episodes, but a piece of news like this,
doesn't go by without wanting to say a thing or two about such a memorable
part of Star Trek history that was David Warner's three performances.
Rob: Definitely.
Now when you first heard the news, Kev, what was your initial reaction?
Kevin: My initial reaction was "Well done, David Warner."
When I look at someone who has a career like that behind him, I just think, you
know what, that's how I want to go out: remembered for that quality of work.
Rob: Definitely.
Definitely.
Yeah.
I've been a huge fan of David Warner's work for most of my life.
He's always appeared in projects that have always been within my spectrum of viewing.
So whether it be, my oddball fantasy sci-fi films as a kid and then going into
the heavier, more dramatic stuff as I was going through university, taking myself
far too seriously as an acting student.
And then later on as an obsessive Doctor Who fan, you always find ways
of David Warner making himself known.
Kevin: David Warner was in Doctor Who?
Rob: David Warner has a close association with Doctor Who.
Yes, he appeared in the 2013 episode "Cold War", written by Mr.
Mark Gatiss.
He plays a Russian professor and he does a brilliant job.
And also he worked for Big Finish.
Kevin: Ahh, the audio book…
Rob: Yes, and he played the Doctor that never was.
They did a series called Unbound, where they created alternate realities.
So they had people like the wonderful David Collings, who passed away a
couple of years ago, who appeared in The Robots of Death and Mawdryn Undead.
He played a Doctor and they got David Warner to play a Doctor with Nicholas
Courtney who played the Brigadier.
It's a fabulous "what if…?"
type of story for those of you in the Marvel world, might understand it more.
Kevin: Yeah.
Wow.
Rob: But we thought we'd get together on very short notice in this, as
you said, a break in between regular programming to take a little bit
of time and take a knee a symbolic knee and a honorable knee for Mr.
David Warner.
Kevin: It should not go unsaid that we also lost Paul Sorvino on the same day.
It seems like there's an entire era of Star Trek alumni that
are approaching that age.
Paul Sorvino, memorable appearance as Nikolai Rozhenko, Worf's adopted brother
in Star Trek: The Next Generation.
I want to say, I think Paul Sorvino, the highlights of his career
were elsewhere than Star Trek.
I don't know David Warner well outside of Star Trek, but I feel like Star Trek
was a career highlight for David Warner.
Rob: Definitely.
And he definitely brought his considerable experience and his charisma and charm and
gravitas to Star Trek, which fit perfectly within the world that Star Trek is, and
also with the performances he played.
So let's give a little a brief rundown of David Warner, for
those of you that didn't know.
Born in Manchester, England, Warner trained at the Royal Academy of
Dramatic Arts, RADA, one of the biggest acting schools in the world.
He became a member of the Royal Shakespeare company at a very young
age, and he played the title role of Hamlet back in 1965 to much acclaim.
He revived the role the following year, and playing the Player King in
that revival was Patrick Stewart, so they have a strong connection there.
Warner moved onto film, having worked in his first film role of any
prominence, Tom Jones, which was academy award-winning film starring Albert Finney.
He went on to do The Omen, one of his most iconic roles.
He was the villain in Tron.
He was the villain in Time Bandits.
Incredible, incredibly long career.
He did an incredible voice over career.
He did the voice of Ra's al Ghul in the Batman animated series, and as we
mentioned, has worked on Doctor Who, and that is just a small portion of his work.
He was in Twin Peaks, for heaven's sake, as well.
This man worked extensively for 60 years across the pond in both
small screen, big screen and the stage, and it is a big loss.
But we are here specifically to talk about his work on Star Trek, and his
first appearance in Star Trek was in— Oh!
Well.
Kevin: An ignominious beginning.
Rob: In Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, directed by Mr.
William Shatner, his first and only experience of
directing a Star Trek product.
Kevin: Yes, I think, we've been wondering when we were going to have to address
the elephant in the room that is Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, not one
of the best outings of the franchise.
But it is becoming relevant again with Sybok's recent
appearance in Strange New Worlds.
So I think a lot of casual fans are going to be going back and revisiting
this old classic, and being a little shocked at what they discover as
a low point for the franchise.
But I will say it.
Saint John Talbot, his role in this movie is a highlight.
I love him.
He is a small part, but he plays it so subtly.
He is the best part of every scene he's in, I think.
Rob: Very much so, and the great thing about Warner is, whether it be in a Terry
Gilliam film like Time Bandits, whether it be in layers of makeup in Star Trek,
or just playing an earthling in Star Trek.
He was consistent with his performance.
He would never play up if he was in a genre piece or he would never play
down if he was in a like "straight drama", if I do in inverted commas.
He treated all genres and all roles that he played with that
same level of truth and commitment.
And he brings that to this role.
He's only very much a minor role in the background with a little
bit of a presence at the start, but it more focuses on obviously the
leads, but there's this nice, almost apathetic, worn out quality to him.
Kevin: For those not familiar with the film – and I suspect there will be
more than typical for this particular film – Star Trek V opens on the planet
of Nimbus III, which is this desert planet that is jokingly uh, referred to
as the planet of intergalactic peace.
There are ambassadors from Earth, Romulus and Klingon on the planet,
and they're supposedly there to be working towards peace.
Rob: As they are in the Neutral Zone.
Kevin: Yes.
And you get the impression this is not a cherry assignment, being
the ambassador to Nimbus III.
This is a punishment for each of them.
The movie opens by Sybok, Spock's emotional half brother, basically
taking them hostage, brainwashing them, and then going on to hijack
the Enterprise later in the movie.
So St.
John Talbot is the ambassador from Earth.
It is perhaps just that he is the human, so he doesn't have any loud makeup
going on or any big, elevated character.
But he plays a subtle diplomat, who is, my read of it, he's doing the best he
can in the situation he finds himself in.
Rob: Yeah, and he has a little bit of an arc.
We see him like quite apathetic at the start.
You see him brainwashed, so his personality changes.
And then at the end, him and the Romulan kind of have this connection together.
So a great actor always brings more than is actually written on the page.
And you can definitely see that with David Warner in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.
Kevin: He disappears in the second half of this movie, like everyone comes board
the Enterprise and the movie becomes about the Starfleet characters and
Sybok, and the rest of the diplomats don't really have a part to play.
Korrd has a small role in the ultimate denouement of that plot,
but yeah, it seems clear to me, St.
John Talbot was written as a bit of a afterthought, supporting role.
And my guess is that he brought more to the role than the producers
expected because they brought him back for the very next movie.
Rob: It's very interesting because the next movie, obviously, Star
Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, as you have mentioned one of
your favorite of the films.
Kevin: My favorite.
I'm gonna say it.
It is my favorite Star Trek movie.
Rob: "You… vouched…?"
"There is an old Vulcan saying…" Love it.
Kevin: Yes.
"…only Nixon could go to China."
Rob: "Only Nixon could go to China."
It's very interesting because I didn't make the connection, but Star Trek
VI is of course directed by Nicholas Meyer, and Nicholas Meyer directed
David Warner previously in the 1979 classic sci-fi Time After Time.
Kevin: Oh, hey!
Rob: He plays Jack the Ripper, who travels through time and is
chased after by Malcolm McDowell.
Yes, who would— yeah, another Star Trek connection, who played HG
Wells hunting down Jack the Ripper.
So there's a little bit of connection there, but they bring him back in the
very next film to play pretty much one of my favorite Klingons ever to
grace the screen, Chancellor Gorkon.
Kevin: Yes.
Yes!
Rob: And, as he calls it.
"Oh, doing one of those makeup jobs," like there's a there's a
quote of him online going, "Yeah.
I was brought in for one of those makeup jobs."
Kevin: Yes.
Ah, so memorable.
Gone too quick.
As the inciting plot point at the start of the film, he is
assassinated, but what a memorable presence at the start of that film.
Like, the gravitas, the weight is felt.
It echos through the whole rest of the movie.
Like it powers— that tragedy powers the rest of the movie.
Rob: Definitely.
And the way he presents his character is so unlike any Klingon we have seen before.
He is very much the essence of a Klingon, but it's not all that almost stereotypical
cliche presentation of a Klingon.
Him and Christopher Plummer, who also appears in that film
playing General Chang, they both—
Kevin: I can see them materializing on the transporter platform right
now, and General Chang turning and revealing his eye patch.
It's just like, "Oh, buckle up.
This is gonna be a great film."
Rob: And uh, Dave Warner holding the that impressive walking stick that looks
like it's the bone of a beast that he's probably just talked into submission,
and then broken it off some sort of bone.
But there's a great charm to him and a great steely resolve.
There's some great moments where there's a tension during the dinner party scene.
Cuz it's basically, the Enterprise has been sent to broker peace with
the Klingons, and the prejudice of both parties come out and
David Warner says the great line.
"Clearly, we still have a long way to go."
Kevin: Ah yes.
The other one that I am always repeating in my head is, "If there is to be a
brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it."
Rob: Yes.
You've got script co-written by Leonard Nimoy and stuff like this.
So this was prime Star Trek, with that elevated sense of a Shakespearean
grace Nimoy always was trying to chuck in there with these Shakespearean
references and that whole grandiose style.
But Dave, where Christopher Plummer is the more theatrical, villainous
role, David Warner continues on with that tradition of just hitting that
role from a place of absolute truth.
It's a knockout performance.
His final lines is just…
Kevin: "Don't let it…"
Rob: Yeah.
"Don't let it end this way."
Yeah.
It's an incredible performance.
Kevin: He, for me, has echoes of the Klingon ambassador in Star Trek IV,
who is arguing the case at the court martial of the returned crew of the
Enterprise, who's like, "There shall be no peace as long as Kirk lives!"
Rob: "Remember this well!"
Yes.
Kevin: But I think that Star Trek IV role or that character in Star Trek IV
was for me the prototype of the stately Klingon, the Klingon statesperson,
which we had not seen before.
Rob: Especially because yeah, the first time you see him,
he's… he's there pleading, look at what this monster, James T.
Kirk has done to our people.
Kevin: Yes.
And it's like the Klingon politician.
It was so interesting an archetype, and to have David Warner reprise that archetype
here and be the trustworthy Klingon.
I think the arc of that, that story is that at the start,
Kirk does not trust Klingons.
He never will, because of the death of his son.
And Chancellor Gorkon appears on the transporter platform there to broker
peace and Kirk doesn't trust him.
And we don't trust him because we trust Kirk.
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: And then he gives his life for the cause and with his
dying breath wishes for peace.
And you're like, holy crap, it's a trustworthy Klingon!
And wow, what a meaty role.
He does just like his Star Trek V appearance, it is
underplayed at every turn.
Rob: Especially the actor who played the ambassador you talk
about, he returns in Star Trek VI.
He's there as well at Camp Khitomer.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: He is quite, like Christopher Plummer, that almost
Shakespearean-esque delivery.
Kevin: John Schuck is the name of that Klingon ambassador, and I
think he's only ever referred to as the Klingon ambassador, but Memory
Alpha tells me his name was Kamarag.
Rob: Kamarag.
Well yeah, it's never mentioned.
And I believe he went on to do Herman Munster in the Muns… in The Munsters
Today TV series, where they went to sleep and they were revived in the nineties.
Kevin: Look a Shakespearean voice and a Klingon makeup job is a
character I will always get behind.
Rob: Oh, look, any time.
That great ending of Star Trek VI, where the prejudice that was holding
back Kirk and the prejudice of David Warner's character's daughter.
And how they both come together and they go, you've restored honor to my
father and you restored honor to my son.
You just go, gosh starting to tear up just thinking about it now.
Kevin: A great guest star makes your principal actors better.
For me, Gorkon's death scene is McCoy's finest moment in the entire
series, when he is fighting for that Klingon's life and is he's up to
his elbows in pink, Klingon blood.
"I don't even know his anatomy!"
That pulls me in and brings me to the point of tears more than
anything McCoy has ever done.
And…
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: …glad we got that from him.
Rob: And there's another moment as well when they're on trial
and they're interrogating him.
He goes, "I tried to save him.
He was our only, he was our last hope."
Kevin: "I was desperate to save him."
So good.
Rob: Yeah.
Like I talked about before, Star Trek movies is how I started.
So I just live and breathe old, worn out McCoy, Shatner, Nimoy.
And they're just, yeah, so old and they're just so experienced and
they're… they just keep on going.
It's amazing.
Kevin: The producers knew it, because what a casting choice to bring back
a supporting actor for the very next film, in a completely different role.
That never happens.
Rob: And the difference between both performances are
just, yeah, night and day.
Yeah.
Incredible.
And finally we then move into prob— Ooh, I mean, it's a tough call.
Kevin: I think we've saved the best for last.
Rob: Yeah, I'm trying like, what would he be most defined by, but especially
Chain of Command, which I, to be honest, I only watched for the first
time last night to get ready for this.
I know I watched both parts.
I was up till one in the morning to be prepared.
Kevin: And he doesn't even appear until the second episode.
Rob: I know I'm there going, right, okay, I could get through this.
Oh, of course.
It's a two parter.
Oh, of course.
He doesn't show up two part two.
Damn you Star Trek—
Kevin: You could almost watch part two without watching part one.
It is a separate story.
Part one is just about getting Picard into that room with David Warner.
Rob: And really hating Ronny Cox.
Kevin: Yes, Captain Jellico, infamous for his time.
He has been referenced in Star Trek: Lower Decks.
Mariner has at least once referred to a guest captain as a "Jellico".
So yes, memorable for different reasons, part one, but part two is
this duet between Picard and Gul Madred, played by David Warner.
Rob: He only picked up the role three days before filming.
He had to replace somebody else.
And as he says here, he said an interview in 2011, "I took
over on three days' notice.
It was another makeup job."
I love it.
I love those old school actors who just go, oh, I'm doing the makeup thing.
Kevin: …won't be me.
I'll be the makeup.
Rob: Yeah.
"It was with Pat Stewart, who's an old colleague, and it was
great to be a part of that.
And I thought, oh, I've done two of the others, the old classic
Kevin: Yeah,
Rob: am in Next Generation.
I'll go for it."
And he was so so impressive on it as a Cardassian that they wanted to
bring him back for Deep Space Nine.
Kevin: Oh, right.
They wanted to, but they didn't?
Rob: Yeah, they couldn't work it out.
And I think, as it says here, David Warner's wife at the
time was a little bit going.
No, We've got a head back home.
Kevin: This episode is a pop culture moment.
This is one of those Star Trek episodes that people who don't
watch Star Trek may have heard of.
The, "There are four lights," that meme, comes from this episode.
Rob: Yeah, I know the four lights thing.
I know the setup.
It's in my ether, but I've never taken the, time to sit down and watch it.
And all this stuff was coming out during, the recent American election.
So about, there's, about how many votes or whether it rigged or not.
So using that whole, four or five lights.
Anyone who knows anything about science fiction, you go automatically to 1984.
So it's deeply rooted in those iconic, brutal, poetic, interrogation
scenes at the end of 1984.
And, it's a homage to that, a tribute to that, but it stands on its own as…
Kevin: …something more to it.
Rob: It's a work of art.
It elevates it beyond simple sci-fi genre.
Kevin: If you haven't seen the episode, part one is a story in which
Picard, Worf and Crusher are assigned a black ops operation where they
leave the Enterprise and infiltrate Cardassian space on some mission, the
details of which are immaterial here.
Part one ends in this cliffhanger where they get caught and captured.
To be continued.
And in part two, Picard faces off in an interrogation chamber with
Gul Madred, your worst nightmare, torturer and interrogator,
playing mind games at every turn.
And most of this episode is these two men in a room facing off
and trying to break each other.
One of them obviously has the physical advantage over the other, but our
captain, not to be underestimated, plays some mind games of his own.
And by the end, breaks his interrogator in a small way by just outlasting him until
peace can be brokered by the diplomats, and Picard is returned to the Federation.
But Picard admits in hindsight, "I knew there were only four lights.
But when my interrogator asked me how many there were at the end, and if I said five,
I would get a life of luxury and relief from my torture, I saw five lights."
And you believe it.
David Warner makes you believe that if you were left alone in a room with him for
a week, you would see five lights, too.
Rob: And again, it's just, it's shows the ultimate experience and skill
and confidence, not cockiness, but it's a confidence and the surety of
what you do as an actor, to take on this role and never make it stagey,
never make it grand, never make these big theatrical statements.
It's so conversational, but so cold and chilling.
Kevin: I don't think Cardassians can grow mustaches, but he definitely
does no mustache twirling at all.
He is again, underplayed.
When you want an underplayed villain that you almost want to like, and you
almost want to trust, but it feels dangerous to do so, bring in David Warner.
Rob: Bring in David Warner.
It's a great backstory about this character that we just see for,
what, 45 minutes plus five at the end of the previous episode.
But we find out so much about not only him as a person, where he came from,
his… him as a father, him as a child, but him as a member of the Cardassian race.
Kevin: Arguably more than seven seasons of Deep Space Nine,
this one episode does more world building for the Cardassian race.
Rob: It definitely, yeah.
Deep Space Nine definitely deals with the corruption of this society,
whereas with this episode, we find out how it got to that point,
Kevin: yeah.
Rob: one speech
Kevin: We used to be artists.
We used to have culture now we are all soldiers.
Rob: That type of stuff, I'd watched, as I've mentioned many
times before, I've watched Deep Space Nine over and over again, but
I'd only known the culture as that.
So from watching that episode last night, I'm there going—
Kevin: It's the origin story.
Rob: It's the origin story.
And they were artistic and cultural and all that stuff, but they were destitute
and they were starving and it was only through the iron will of a military
mindset that was able to not only save them, but help their culture thrive, which
is impressive, but also incredibly sad.
Kevin: Yeah.
So much with so little.
Three appearances, any one of them would make you a classic guest star.
Rob: Exactly.
Especially with Chain of Command, you sympathize with him.
You find out who he is.
You find out how he is as a father and it's almost, slightly alien, but you
can see that there are fathers like that in whatever society you are, whether
you're from a different planet or…
Kevin: Yeah.
Bittersweet.
By the end, you're glad Picard won, but you almost regret it too.
Rob: Yeah.
And, you feel an element of sadness for that.
And that, scene where he gives a bit too much away about his past, and just how
Picard jumps on it and goes, you're just a six year old boy, that's all I see you as.
No matter what pain you give me, and breaking him down and
how that affects Madred is…
Kevin: Once again, a guest star who brought out something we had never
seen before, and arguably never saw again, from one of our leads.
And…
Rob: Hmm.
Kevin: …imagine that; being able to make Patrick Stewart better.
Rob: Yes.
You can watch from that performance, that type of connection is only established
with someone who's a pair who have only, known each other over 20 years.
The fact that they were working together in the seventies on stage and had been
in stuff on and off for the next 20 years, you just go, they can connect and
they hit that and they hit their marks and they just play with each other.
And it's a it's a duet.
It's like jazz.
It's sorta like Warner gives a little, Patrick gives a little
back, it's this beautiful balance.
And to have that, it felt like you are watching a stage play.
It's been filmed multiple times at multiple angles and
stop, start, setup for them.
And to have that brutality in something that's, TV friendly PG.
Kevin: It shocked.
It shocked.
Rob: To get as much nudity – and I do inverted commas – as they can to really
strip back Picard to that inhuman level of only being referred to as these species.
Just incredible work.
Kevin: Here's to you, David Warner.
It may have just been a makeup job to you, but we will remember you forever.
Rob: Definitely.
And that's the fascinating thing that it, for him, it was just another job.
But you see the three jobs he did with Star Trek and he didn't treat any of them.
He never phoned any of them in.
That's the caliber of actor he is.
Oh, it's just… Yeah, a professional going beyond and above.
And that's why he goes— In many ways, I'd say Kevin, he goes beyond being a
professional and he becomes a legend.
Kevin: Yes.
A legend.
Rob: So, Yes.
Well you know, we just wanted to get in, a, quick chat and a bit of a quick
tribute about the great man David Warner.
Kevin: Thanks for suggesting it, Rob.
We now have news that Lower Decks season three is right around the
corner, and all the marketing looks like at least the first episode's
gonna be a homage to Star Trek III.
So I dare say, audience, if you want to get ahead of your homework for
what we will likely be talking about after the first episode of Lower Decks
season three crack out that Star Trek III, the movie that Rob refuses to
Rob: You watch it so I don't have to.
I've gotta get into the first Lower Decks, first two seasons.
And with the big news that apparently some Lower Decks characters will be appearing
in season two of Strange New Worlds.
Kevin: Oh, I have thoughts on what that's gonna be, but I'm just predicting.
So let's wait and see what it is and be delighted when it happens.
Rob: Oh, look, that, that is incredibly positive and wonderful
way to look upon things, Kevin.
Kevin: See you next time, Rob.
Rob: See you next time, Kevin.
And see you next time, all you listeners out there.
Kevin: Bye for now.
Rob: Bye bye.