WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.749 Matt track: John O'Nolan, welcome to the WP minute 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:04.750 John Track: Hi, thanks for having me. 00:00:05.669 --> 00:00:07.580 Matt track: founder and CEO at ghost. 00:00:07.580 --> 00:00:09.280 We're going to dive right into it. 00:00:09.280 --> 00:00:12.489 There's lots of stuff happening, of course, in the WordPress world, 00:00:12.739 --> 00:00:14.070 but I'm put you on the hot seat. 00:00:14.090 --> 00:00:17.529 I literally just told John in the green room, I wasn't going to put him 00:00:17.529 --> 00:00:20.850 on the hot seat, but we're going to put them on the hot seat, about ghost. 00:00:20.860 --> 00:00:23.000 You're the founder, of course, ghost, you created ghost. 00:00:23.360 --> 00:00:25.210 I was a, I hate to say it. 00:00:25.240 --> 00:00:27.010 I was a customer of ghost. 00:00:27.980 --> 00:00:32.350 I'm kind of backtracking my choices as of late, but, a 00:00:32.350 --> 00:00:34.510 fantastic publishing platform. 00:00:34.790 --> 00:00:38.700 When I went from WordPress to ghost to run a particular newsletter that 00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:42.410 I have called the podcast setup, I was like, man, this is great. 00:00:42.460 --> 00:00:44.990 And the one thing that pulled me back. 00:00:45.660 --> 00:00:50.700 Into WordPress, which is ironic to say was gravity forms. 00:00:51.160 --> 00:00:52.940 I'm now an employee full disclosure. 00:00:52.940 --> 00:00:57.380 I'm an employee at gravity forms, but at the time I wasn't, and I was 00:00:57.380 --> 00:01:01.380 like, I just need some automation form features from gravity forms. 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:04.680 And I just need when people sign up to do an interview, I need 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:06.220 it to do things on the site. 00:01:06.420 --> 00:01:08.700 And that's what brought me back to WordPress. 00:01:09.090 --> 00:01:10.440 But I had a fantastic time. 00:01:11.370 --> 00:01:12.450 using ghost. 00:01:12.790 --> 00:01:13.730 I thought it was great. 00:01:13.790 --> 00:01:14.360 Promise not. 00:01:14.360 --> 00:01:19.240 This is not just a full on ad for ghost, but how do you wrestle with 00:01:19.260 --> 00:01:24.500 like looking at WordPress and the ecosystem that it has developed? 00:01:24.500 --> 00:01:27.230 This is a big question that the ecosystem that it has developed with 00:01:27.240 --> 00:01:31.920 third party add ons like, like gravity forms, like the theme ecosystem, 00:01:31.930 --> 00:01:33.390 like so many other integrations. 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:38.460 How do you wrestle with that as a, an open source CMS founder? 00:01:39.645 --> 00:01:40.695 John Track: Yeah, great question. 00:01:40.745 --> 00:01:42.065 and thank you for the kind words. 00:01:42.065 --> 00:01:44.525 I was sure that the one thing that pulled you back was going to be custom 00:01:44.525 --> 00:01:46.535 fields, but, but here we are forms. 00:01:47.015 --> 00:01:50.865 yeah, the blessing in the curse of WordPress in my mind has always been 00:01:51.395 --> 00:01:54.765 the power and the extensibility of the platform and its ecosystem and all the 00:01:54.765 --> 00:01:55.814 different things you can do with it. 00:01:55.895 --> 00:01:56.975 On the one hand, amazing. 00:01:57.445 --> 00:02:00.895 On the other hand comes with some downsides, comes with complexity of 00:02:00.895 --> 00:02:02.835 integration, comes with security issues. 00:02:02.845 --> 00:02:08.195 Sometimes update servers that you may or may not have access to all those things. 00:02:08.295 --> 00:02:12.425 and I think different platforms have different answers depending on. 00:02:13.225 --> 00:02:15.355 Should have different answers depending on what they're trying to do. 00:02:15.705 --> 00:02:17.905 WordPress is, what I would call a generalized CMS. 00:02:17.925 --> 00:02:21.495 You can kind of decide what you want to build with it and it can become that. 00:02:21.555 --> 00:02:25.774 It can morph into an e commerce platform or a real estate directory listing 00:02:26.225 --> 00:02:27.725 or a blog or a business website. 00:02:27.970 --> 00:02:31.600 And the extensibility allows you to fulfill those different use cases. 00:02:31.600 --> 00:02:36.300 So it's absolutely critical that you kind of have this really deep set of, 00:02:36.380 --> 00:02:38.390 capabilities that plugins can hook into. 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:42.750 What we do with Ghostus is in many ways kind of the opposite. 00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:47.620 it, we focused in on a single set of use cases, which is publishing and 00:02:47.620 --> 00:02:49.850 publishing Professionally, effectively. 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:55.490 And so we try and take all of the things for those sets of workflows and 00:02:55.490 --> 00:02:57.410 just build them natively into core. 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:00.370 So the way we kind of think about extensibility is 00:03:00.660 --> 00:03:01.710 it's just quite different. 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:05.860 If there's something that everyone's asking for, it kind of should be in core. 00:03:06.220 --> 00:03:09.344 And if there's a longer tail set of things people are trying to do. 00:03:09.995 --> 00:03:13.485 Then usually we try and do that via an integration with a product that 00:03:13.485 --> 00:03:16.305 lives outside of core, usually by API. 00:03:16.725 --> 00:03:20.895 or in some cases, it's just really indicative that you're trying to do 00:03:20.895 --> 00:03:23.165 something that the product wasn't designed for, and there might be better 00:03:23.295 --> 00:03:26.855 capability or better other options out there that have the capabilities you need. 00:03:27.435 --> 00:03:31.155 Matt track: Yeah, lots of folks, of course, now evaluating their 00:03:31.155 --> 00:03:36.835 WordPress futures and, lots of developers and designers who might 00:03:36.835 --> 00:03:38.665 be looking at other platforms. 00:03:39.220 --> 00:03:44.310 What is the best way that you would want this kind of talent to 00:03:44.370 --> 00:03:47.480 onboard into the ghost ecosystem? 00:03:47.710 --> 00:03:52.390 Wordpress land, we have the make blogs, we have the slack if you're not banned, 00:03:52.670 --> 00:03:57.250 we have these developer, these developer guidelines that, you know, help encourage 00:03:57.250 --> 00:03:59.070 you how to build blocks and plugins. 00:03:59.700 --> 00:04:02.950 Is that same kind of educational and onboarding structure available 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:05.960 to, for folks coming from the WordPress world or like, Hey, 00:04:06.010 --> 00:04:07.260 I'm looking for new opportunity. 00:04:07.260 --> 00:04:08.410 How can I do it here? 00:04:09.430 --> 00:04:10.250 John Track: Yeah, it is. 00:04:10.260 --> 00:04:14.510 It's not nearly as extensive, you know, the scale of the, of the WordPress 00:04:14.510 --> 00:04:19.870 ecosystem means you can find almost anything on any topic, tutorial, guide, 00:04:19.880 --> 00:04:21.860 video, podcast, whatever you can think of. 00:04:21.950 --> 00:04:25.080 we don't have quite the breadth of content, but we do have 00:04:25.130 --> 00:04:26.520 a pretty reasonable depth. 00:04:26.740 --> 00:04:30.560 So if you have never heard of Ghostbrawler, you have, and you've, 00:04:30.755 --> 00:04:33.225 But you haven't tried it, you know, our website's a good place to start. 00:04:33.225 --> 00:04:36.205 We have documentation, we have tutorials, we have examples. 00:04:36.465 --> 00:04:39.735 probably the best way to try it out is simply to kick the tires. 00:04:39.805 --> 00:04:40.625 you can sign up on ghost. 00:04:40.625 --> 00:04:42.685 org for a free trial, no obligation. 00:04:42.825 --> 00:04:44.915 We will not be automatically charged at the end of it. 00:04:45.365 --> 00:04:49.095 And, have a fully managed instance spun up working and get 00:04:49.145 --> 00:04:50.545 a sense of, of how things work. 00:04:50.555 --> 00:04:53.055 Have a look at the theme layer, have a look at the integrations layer. 00:04:53.345 --> 00:04:54.085 ghost theme labs. 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:55.180 Modeled after WordPress. 00:04:55.180 --> 00:04:58.880 So if you are a WordPress theme developer familiar with, you know, all of the 00:04:58.880 --> 00:05:02.760 hooks and functions and data outputs that you would normally use there, it's 00:05:02.760 --> 00:05:05.980 going to feel fairly familiar, there's a couple of concepts, which are different. 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:09.980 But the syntax is not a million miles away from what you're 00:05:10.060 --> 00:05:11.490 most likely already used to. 00:05:12.470 --> 00:05:16.390 Matt track: Is the, now I'm not a developer, but is the stack traditional 00:05:16.410 --> 00:05:19.530 HTML, CSS, PHP with a dash of JavaScript? 00:05:19.530 --> 00:05:21.850 Is it heavy JavaScript like WordPress is moving to? 00:05:21.910 --> 00:05:25.050 What should one know for coding languages getting into this? 00:05:26.070 --> 00:05:28.970 John Track: It's heavy javascript, but for most people you would 00:05:28.970 --> 00:05:29.940 never have to touch that. 00:05:30.350 --> 00:05:32.280 So the back end of ghost is written in node. 00:05:32.280 --> 00:05:36.470 js And the front end uses the templating language called handlebars. 00:05:36.470 --> 00:05:37.760 js Handlebars. 00:05:37.760 --> 00:05:41.560 js ostensibly looks a lot like the kind of php functions you would use in 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:45.965 a wordpress theme layer So if you're comfortable as a theme developer in 00:05:45.965 --> 00:05:49.655 WordPress, you would have a very easy time adapting to the theme layer in Ghost. 00:05:49.665 --> 00:05:51.665 It's all familiar concepts. 00:05:51.945 --> 00:05:56.765 if you wanted to do integrations or, kind of more powerful things with Ghost, then 00:05:56.765 --> 00:06:00.735 you're kind of looking at interacting with an API and you do that with 00:06:00.735 --> 00:06:01.695 whatever you're most comfortable with. 00:06:01.705 --> 00:06:04.695 That could be PHP, it could be JavaScript, anything you like. 00:06:04.865 --> 00:06:07.695 But most people don't need to know what Node. 00:06:07.695 --> 00:06:10.325 js is unless they're trying to self host, and then you kind of 00:06:10.325 --> 00:06:11.795 have to run it and install things. 00:06:12.175 --> 00:06:13.875 But for most developers, pretty straightforward. 00:06:13.875 --> 00:06:17.175 Matt track: that ghost is a very opinionated, well, these are my words. 00:06:17.205 --> 00:06:21.105 You could refine it, , but you're alluding to the fact that Ghost is very opinionated 00:06:21.105 --> 00:06:22.635 on the feature set that it has. 00:06:22.995 --> 00:06:27.405 When I was using it, I was like, yeah, man, this is, this is exactly what I need 00:06:27.405 --> 00:06:31.245 until I needed those integrations in that automation that that Gravity forms has. 00:06:31.245 --> 00:06:35.595 But aside from that, I was like writing newsletters and blog posts combined. 00:06:35.745 --> 00:06:36.525 Fantastic. 00:06:36.905 --> 00:06:42.675 showing me the data and the information that is important to that business, 00:06:42.675 --> 00:06:46.785 which was email subscribers, revenue, you know, I had a small 00:06:46.785 --> 00:06:50.025 like, you know, donation slash sponsorship thing going on with that. 00:06:50.445 --> 00:06:51.915 and it was clean. 00:06:52.005 --> 00:06:53.805 There was nothing distracting me. 00:06:54.565 --> 00:06:58.485 from the work I needed to get done when I logged into my go site versus my 00:06:58.485 --> 00:07:01.335 WordPress site where I'm like, Oh damn, there's another banner that's popping up. 00:07:01.795 --> 00:07:04.755 you know, there's a, an update notification yelling at me like, God, 00:07:04.785 --> 00:07:06.255 didn't I just update all these plugins? 00:07:06.255 --> 00:07:06.385 Right. 00:07:06.385 --> 00:07:08.515 And I've been doing this now for nearly 20 years. 00:07:08.515 --> 00:07:10.925 Like I should be used to it by now, but it was still sort of like this 00:07:10.935 --> 00:07:13.475 drain on my energy every time I log in. 00:07:13.955 --> 00:07:16.065 and that was, fantastic. 00:07:16.405 --> 00:07:19.115 So how do you balance, Hmm. 00:07:19.145 --> 00:07:19.775 This is a tough one. 00:07:19.905 --> 00:07:20.735 How do you balance. 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:26.800 What customers want and what let's say the ghost community wants and can 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:30.370 you address what the ghost community looks like because we say WordPress 00:07:30.380 --> 00:07:35.450 community it means a lot to us us in the WordPress world It means you know 00:07:35.470 --> 00:07:39.830 developers designers giving back to this ecosystem helping people and a lot 00:07:39.830 --> 00:07:43.700 of us the reason why we're struggling with this recent incident is that 00:07:43.700 --> 00:07:47.490 we all felt like we've been building WordPress now for nearly 20 years. 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:50.680 And we always felt like we had a say in the direction. 00:07:50.750 --> 00:07:54.450 There's what the customers wanted and there's what we wanted or want. 00:07:54.740 --> 00:07:57.370 And that's a, that's a tough line to balance. 00:07:57.370 --> 00:08:00.630 So how do you approach like what your end users want and what the 00:08:00.630 --> 00:08:03.700 community wants and what does that look like from your perspective? 00:08:05.650 --> 00:08:08.090 John Track: it's a great question and I'm, I'm very familiar with 00:08:08.090 --> 00:08:11.780 the, you know, the nuances and the challenges of the WordPress community. 00:08:11.840 --> 00:08:15.630 I was on the WordPress core team, what about 14 years ago now? 00:08:16.090 --> 00:08:19.920 So I was a pretty active contributor, spoke a lot of WordCamps, did a 00:08:19.930 --> 00:08:24.210 lot of make blog posts, there's a lot of history there and, I 00:08:24.385 --> 00:08:26.200 think it's always a balancing act. 00:08:26.330 --> 00:08:27.470 we try to approach it. 00:08:27.705 --> 00:08:29.315 As much as possible by listening. 00:08:29.375 --> 00:08:34.335 I think the, the job of, the core team as we see it is to listen to as many inputs 00:08:34.335 --> 00:08:39.695 as possible and then make good decisions about which to, which requests and 00:08:39.695 --> 00:08:42.215 things to follow, and which to discard. 00:08:42.355 --> 00:08:45.495 And sometimes that looks like, features, which are. 00:08:45.740 --> 00:08:51.230 The most aligned with the product and the core audience, the core target 00:08:51.230 --> 00:08:52.650 users that we're trying to attract. 00:08:53.050 --> 00:08:56.150 sometimes it's the things we're most excited about, but all of the time, it's 00:08:56.170 --> 00:09:01.810 trying to make sure that the platform stays true to what it says it is. 00:09:02.290 --> 00:09:05.800 that is something that has always been kind of deeply important to me. 00:09:05.860 --> 00:09:07.825 And, yeah, so it's, it's really a mix of inputs. 00:09:07.825 --> 00:09:11.645 There's not like a clean answer, but it, it always starts with, with 00:09:11.675 --> 00:09:15.145 listening to what people are saying and taking into account all the different 00:09:15.205 --> 00:09:17.615 perspectives, all the different ways in which people are using it. 00:09:18.790 --> 00:09:23.170 Matt track: For many years I think the Guiding light's not the right phrase, 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:27.330 North Star maybe and even that's too nice, but there was always this, this feeling 00:09:27.330 --> 00:09:30.400 of WordPress must dominate the web, right? 00:09:30.400 --> 00:09:35.940 So back in, in your time, it was probably 10, 15, 20 percent of the internet. 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:41.760 Now, look at some different numbers where 40, between 40 and 48 percent 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:44.720 of the modern web, whatever that number is, there was always like 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:47.260 this momentum to, to dominate. 00:09:47.700 --> 00:09:48.570 What is it? 00:09:49.340 --> 00:09:51.380 Mean to you and ghosts? 00:09:51.380 --> 00:09:57.600 Like, what's your position on like impacting the web, impacting the open web? 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:02.610 What, what, what are your thoughts on, of course, like the pie of, of the internet. 00:10:02.670 --> 00:10:04.560 How much of the slice are you trying to get? 00:10:04.560 --> 00:10:04.590 Oh, 00:10:06.700 --> 00:10:11.660 John Track: I'm kind of, DHH post this week was, was fairly good on this topic. 00:10:11.660 --> 00:10:16.050 I, Where he said, you know, the, the, the scale of value that Rails 00:10:16.050 --> 00:10:19.420 has created vastly outstrips that, which he has personally captured. 00:10:19.420 --> 00:10:20.180 And that's a good thing. 00:10:20.190 --> 00:10:21.630 That's what open source should be about. 00:10:21.940 --> 00:10:22.540 I agree with that. 00:10:22.540 --> 00:10:26.760 I would almost take it even further, and say that we are attempting to capture the 00:10:26.770 --> 00:10:31.710 smallest possible slice of the market to sustain our operations and nothing else. 00:10:31.800 --> 00:10:34.330 so Ghost is a, a not for profit organization, single. 00:10:34.805 --> 00:10:35.805 Nonprofit foundation. 00:10:35.825 --> 00:10:41.545 There's no other companies, you know, with venture funding or other motivations. 00:10:41.585 --> 00:10:47.255 it's just one nonprofit foundation and our goal, with lots of goals, but one of them 00:10:47.255 --> 00:10:51.735 is to never grow to more than 50 people in headcount around, around 50 people 00:10:51.745 --> 00:10:55.945 might not be exactly that number, but around, around that mark and the point. 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:00.930 In my eyes or how I think about the future is not to try and grow the biggest 00:11:00.930 --> 00:11:04.790 company possible, or to try and capture as much value of the web as possible. 00:11:04.790 --> 00:11:09.630 And certainly not to try and capture a percentage of, the web's total market 00:11:09.630 --> 00:11:15.375 share, but to grow an ecosystem, which a core team, in the structure of a 00:11:15.375 --> 00:11:17.315 nonprofit foundation is able to support. 00:11:17.615 --> 00:11:18.805 And in my mind, that looks like. 00:11:19.105 --> 00:11:22.875 Lots of different companies doing well, not one giant company, you know, 00:11:23.005 --> 00:11:26.815 making the majority of the money and controlling how everything works, but 00:11:26.865 --> 00:11:31.865 really more of a chaotic, some in some ways, chaotic, decentralized ecosystem. 00:11:31.865 --> 00:11:35.995 I think of it as, you know, like a city, you might have lots of shops, lots of 00:11:35.995 --> 00:11:37.525 houses, lots of different businesses. 00:11:38.045 --> 00:11:38.575 The. 00:11:39.015 --> 00:11:44.815 The goal of leading a good city is to create infrastructure that can allow a 00:11:44.825 --> 00:11:47.995 diverse set of people to thrive within it. 00:11:48.575 --> 00:11:53.095 not to control everything and to own everything and to buy up everything and 00:11:53.095 --> 00:11:56.285 to, turn it into some dystopian nightmare. 00:11:56.975 --> 00:12:01.475 So we're trying to really do the biggest possible thing with the 00:12:01.475 --> 00:12:03.665 smallest possible team and make it work. 00:12:04.055 --> 00:12:07.355 enough revenue to sustain, to make what we do possible. 00:12:08.035 --> 00:12:10.365 But, but not more than that in, in business terms. 00:12:10.685 --> 00:12:12.775 And, usually when I say this, people get very confused. 00:12:12.845 --> 00:12:13.415 Why not? 00:12:13.525 --> 00:12:14.585 Why don't you want more? 00:12:15.105 --> 00:12:18.575 and the answer to that, I mean, has been underscored quite a 00:12:18.575 --> 00:12:23.695 lot in the last few weeks is the web, not exclusive to WordPress. 00:12:23.705 --> 00:12:28.365 The web has been driven by a lot of greed and a lot of very wealthy people. 00:12:28.855 --> 00:12:29.785 And I don't think. 00:12:30.435 --> 00:12:33.945 That we've had the best, that we can have from the web and 00:12:33.945 --> 00:12:35.465 from humanity more broadly. 00:12:35.852 --> 00:12:40.535 From having power be concentrated in, single platforms or single individuals. 00:12:40.585 --> 00:12:44.925 I think, a long tail of small businesses, small platforms, small websites, 00:12:44.965 --> 00:12:46.525 that's what I want to see more of. 00:12:46.555 --> 00:12:50.985 And so in many ways, I'm just with Ghost, we're trying to make more 00:12:50.985 --> 00:12:52.025 of what we want to see more of. 00:12:52.935 --> 00:12:57.845 Matt track: Is the first, so is the number 50 a way to sort of what I'll 00:12:57.845 --> 00:13:04.110 say is sort of stop gap that like corporate sort of scale where things 00:13:04.110 --> 00:13:06.270 can become unruly and out of control. 00:13:06.770 --> 00:13:07.420 but let me backtrack. 00:13:07.430 --> 00:13:09.990 First question is how many people are you at now? 00:13:10.180 --> 00:13:10.970 Goals 50. 00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:11.730 Where are you at now? 00:13:12.235 --> 00:13:13.585 John Track: We're mid thirties now. 00:13:13.970 --> 00:13:14.490 Matt track: Mid 30s. 00:13:14.860 --> 00:13:16.730 So is that number to stopgap? 00:13:17.105 --> 00:13:22.865 What could happen beyond 50 because I know I've been labeled a bit of a 00:13:22.865 --> 00:13:27.095 mad apologist only because I'm trying to Deconstruct what is happening? 00:13:27.935 --> 00:13:32.365 And but at the same time like I could not imagine running a 1, 700 00:13:32.365 --> 00:13:38.160 person Organization like that, with, with the, with the deep level of 00:13:38.160 --> 00:13:39.990 control that he still runs it with. 00:13:40.180 --> 00:13:43.140 How could you, how could you do that? 00:13:43.150 --> 00:13:48.150 I can understand that task alone is stressful and could lead to some real 00:13:48.160 --> 00:13:51.430 wacky decisions, outbursts and comments. 00:13:51.800 --> 00:13:55.230 Is that 50 to stopgap, that growth and that unruliness that 00:13:55.230 --> 00:13:56.790 could happen in an organization? 00:13:58.550 --> 00:13:59.480 John Track: Yes and no. 00:13:59.580 --> 00:14:03.450 It's definitely not easy to run a company of any size and it definitely 00:14:03.450 --> 00:14:04.820 doesn't get easier as you get bigger. 00:14:05.350 --> 00:14:08.910 that being said, there's quite a lot of people who are doing it very well for 00:14:09.030 --> 00:14:13.120 every person who's, perhaps not doing such a good job of it and it's not. 00:14:13.745 --> 00:14:15.755 Something we have no reference material for, right? 00:14:15.765 --> 00:14:20.485 1, 700 people dwarfs in comparison to the NVIDIA or the hundreds 00:14:20.485 --> 00:14:21.665 of thousands at Microsoft. 00:14:21.675 --> 00:14:24.465 There are playbooks that are good advice out there. 00:14:24.465 --> 00:14:27.715 There's a lot of hard problems you have to solve along the way, but there 00:14:27.715 --> 00:14:32.225 are also a lot of easy things that you can not step in along the way. 00:14:32.225 --> 00:14:35.825 And I think the things we've seen within the WordPress community in 00:14:35.825 --> 00:14:39.375 the last three weeks have not been representative of the hard problems 00:14:39.375 --> 00:14:41.545 of running a 1700 person company. 00:14:41.635 --> 00:14:45.115 They have been some of the one on one basics of things you don't do, 00:14:45.155 --> 00:14:48.385 whether you are a freelancer, a one person company or a two person company. 00:14:48.785 --> 00:14:53.365 and that's, that's the thing that I've found a bit disappointing, but 00:14:53.385 --> 00:14:57.005 the stop gap that you were kind of alluring to in our context is less 00:14:57.005 --> 00:15:01.455 about, I think companies get on by definition, get unruly at scale. 00:15:01.485 --> 00:15:03.035 And, that's something I. 00:15:03.550 --> 00:15:06.810 I'm worried about it's more, it doesn't seem like fun to me. 00:15:07.020 --> 00:15:11.390 My idea of a good time is not having eight layers of management 00:15:11.550 --> 00:15:13.460 and, not knowing anyone's name. 00:15:14.130 --> 00:15:18.320 My idea of fun is honestly, hearkens back to my WordPress contribution 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:20.180 days where I would show up on IRC. 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:23.790 I would chat shit with a bunch of the other contributors and we 00:15:23.790 --> 00:15:24.950 would make cool stuff together. 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:30.380 And at the end of the day or the month or whatever it was, we would release stuff 00:15:30.410 --> 00:15:36.290 that I, sitting on a laptop in a pair of 2 shorts on a beach in the Philippines, 00:15:36.340 --> 00:15:40.660 had written with no status, no money, no clout, and it would get released 00:15:40.670 --> 00:15:42.320 to hundreds of millions of people. 00:15:42.850 --> 00:15:46.270 That's my idea of a good time, having a tight knit team of people doing really 00:15:46.270 --> 00:15:50.490 cool stuff at a scale that doesn't make sense just because of the amazingness of 00:15:50.490 --> 00:15:52.190 open source and how far and wide it goes. 00:15:52.560 --> 00:15:55.400 So I simply don't want to run a company more than 50 people, 00:15:55.430 --> 00:15:58.340 because I think that's the point at which you start to lose that. 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.100 And we have a lot of team members who've come from, startups 00:16:01.250 --> 00:16:02.450 that grew past that point. 00:16:02.470 --> 00:16:04.440 And they all kind of have the same story, which is like, it 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:05.390 was great at the beginning. 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:06.220 It's really fun. 00:16:06.510 --> 00:16:08.360 We were doing all this cool stuff. 00:16:08.920 --> 00:16:09.660 Amen. 00:16:10.085 --> 00:16:14.485 Around 60, 70, 100 people, it started to break down. 00:16:14.525 --> 00:16:17.395 New leads of management were acquired, the priorities changed, 00:16:17.405 --> 00:16:19.235 it didn't feel the same anymore. 00:16:19.875 --> 00:16:21.215 It just doesn't sound like fun to me. 00:16:21.245 --> 00:16:25.635 So there's a selfish goal in there of, you know, with Ghost being a non 00:16:25.635 --> 00:16:30.095 profit, I don't stand to sell it one day or, Make a shitload of money off it. 00:16:30.475 --> 00:16:32.255 So it has to be something I enjoy. 00:16:32.265 --> 00:16:35.475 It has to be something that I'm fully invested in that feels like 00:16:35.475 --> 00:16:36.745 something I could do for a long time. 00:16:36.985 --> 00:16:40.975 Cause if it's just a slog, for the sake of scale, there's nothing to it. 00:16:41.365 --> 00:16:45.245 So keeping it small, keeping it focused is a creative constraint we've chosen. 00:16:45.855 --> 00:16:48.655 And what's fun about choosing constraints is. 00:16:48.985 --> 00:16:51.125 invariably you have to try and get around them, right? 00:16:51.125 --> 00:16:52.175 You've got this constraint. 00:16:52.205 --> 00:16:53.025 What are we going to do with it? 00:16:53.055 --> 00:16:54.495 We've only got 50 people. 00:16:54.925 --> 00:16:56.645 Well, that changes what's possible with the product. 00:16:56.645 --> 00:16:59.395 It changes with what's possible of what portion of the market you 00:16:59.395 --> 00:17:01.435 serve, what type of market that is. 00:17:01.625 --> 00:17:05.115 It changes all kinds of things that then, there's an amazing amount of 00:17:05.115 --> 00:17:07.285 creativity that comes from those and trying to figure them out. 00:17:07.865 --> 00:17:10.845 so I'm, I'm a huge fan of, of creative constraints of any kind. 00:17:10.845 --> 00:17:11.925 And this is just one of us. 00:17:12.835 --> 00:17:13.105 Matt track: Yeah. 00:17:13.545 --> 00:17:20.195 Can you explain or illustrate how your, non profit, compares 00:17:20.195 --> 00:17:21.045 to, let's say this Yeah. 00:17:21.045 --> 00:17:21.060 Yeah. 00:17:21.470 --> 00:17:26.280 Tangled web of, the, the WordPress foundation and wordpress. 00:17:26.290 --> 00:17:27.560 org and wordpress. 00:17:27.560 --> 00:17:28.860 com and automatic. 00:17:28.860 --> 00:17:32.500 Like we all thought we kind of knew how it worked. 00:17:32.500 --> 00:17:37.440 And I think many of us knew like 85 percent of it over the last few years. 00:17:37.730 --> 00:17:42.080 And this whole situation kind of like brought to light like this 15 percent 00:17:42.080 --> 00:17:43.550 that was like, where did that come from? 00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:45.700 How does your non profit work? 00:17:45.710 --> 00:17:49.360 What happens if, what's the bus factor for John O'Nolan? 00:17:49.370 --> 00:17:55.000 If there's no John O'Nolan, what happens to Ghost and the, the non profit side 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:58.540 of the house illustrate how that works is a lot of us are kind of worried 00:17:58.540 --> 00:18:00.800 about our own plumbing in WordPress. 00:18:02.355 --> 00:18:06.155 John Track: a lot of the way we've structured things was, inadvertently 00:18:06.905 --> 00:18:10.475 inspired by automatic and WP engine, believe it or not, 12 years ago. 00:18:10.585 --> 00:18:15.535 so being in the WordPress, kind of core team and seeing how the product 00:18:15.535 --> 00:18:20.815 was made, I had, direct exposure to kind of all of these issues, perhaps 00:18:20.815 --> 00:18:23.925 earlier than other people and the. 00:18:24.610 --> 00:18:28.900 Tension and the kind of, conflicting motivations and priorities of all 00:18:28.900 --> 00:18:34.340 these different organizations within WordPress, I always found, difficult. 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:38.930 you cannot have a venture backed arm on the one hand, a nonprofit foundation 00:18:38.930 --> 00:18:42.810 on the other and a dot org website on the third or controlled by the same 00:18:42.810 --> 00:18:46.680 person, even though they have conflicting priorities and expect everything to be 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:50.450 smooth sailing, it was always going to be a matter of when, not if this happened, 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:56.760 The amusing thing is that all these conflicts, were what inspired a lot of 00:18:56.760 --> 00:18:58.940 ideas for Ghost of how not to do that. 00:18:59.390 --> 00:19:03.560 I was very bought into the idea of democratizing publishing when 00:19:03.560 --> 00:19:06.330 I was working on WordPress and that still means a lot to me. 00:19:07.280 --> 00:19:11.890 And the conflicts of interest around kind of all the positioning that 00:19:11.890 --> 00:19:15.750 goes on behind the scenes, was not what I was excited about at all. 00:19:16.545 --> 00:19:21.475 So a lot of the ideas for Ghost were based on what would an open 00:19:21.475 --> 00:19:25.025 source product that's trying to just democratize publishing look 00:19:25.055 --> 00:19:26.815 like if it lived up to its ideals. 00:19:27.505 --> 00:19:31.575 Now, I don't know if we've succeeded in that, but the angle we came up with was an 00:19:31.575 --> 00:19:34.485 attempt at trying to answer that question. 00:19:35.065 --> 00:19:40.585 So Ghost is a single nonprofit foundation and that nonprofit foundation 00:19:40.695 --> 00:19:44.085 sells a managed hosting service, which we modeled after WP Engine. 00:19:44.305 --> 00:19:46.655 It seemed like WP Engine had a great business model. 00:19:46.752 --> 00:19:50.205 You had the full power of WordPress, but you didn't have to worry about servers. 00:19:50.585 --> 00:19:52.905 Whereas by comparison, as you'll remember, WordPress. 00:19:52.945 --> 00:19:56.275 com was not used by anyone who knew anything about WordPress. 00:19:56.855 --> 00:19:59.785 These days you can do themes and plugins, but for a very long time you 00:19:59.785 --> 00:20:01.495 had no option to run themes or plugins. 00:20:01.975 --> 00:20:05.755 So in my mind, I wanted to have the simplicity of a nonprofit organization 00:20:05.765 --> 00:20:07.445 to steward the open source project. 00:20:07.830 --> 00:20:12.680 The business model of WP Engine to fund that open source project and the 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:16.720 transparency and integrity of what an open source project should be, which is 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:22.160 to have no outside influences or ulterior motives that come whether you want them or 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:24.160 not, the second you take venture capital. 00:20:24.860 --> 00:20:25.220 And. 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:26.870 So far so good. 00:20:26.950 --> 00:20:30.160 You know, we're 11, 11, 12 years in now. 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:34.510 we are at seven and a half million dollars a year in revenue and we were 00:20:34.520 --> 00:20:36.580 profitable from the very first year. 00:20:36.670 --> 00:20:38.900 There were enough people that kind of believed in that model. 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:42.380 Although there were many more who didn't quite understand what was the point? 00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:44.680 Why do you need this weird nonprofit model? 00:20:45.020 --> 00:20:48.690 And, if anything, I think the last few weeks have, I've drawn attention 00:20:48.690 --> 00:20:51.070 to why it can be a good idea. 00:20:52.615 --> 00:20:57.315 Matt track: Is there a board of, directors on the foundation, or how does 00:20:57.315 --> 00:21:00.435 that sort of oversight, work in Ghost? 00:21:00.435 --> 00:21:01.117 Ha, ha, 00:21:01.120 --> 00:21:02.060 John Track: Yeah, you're right. 00:21:02.060 --> 00:21:03.080 I skipped the bus factor. 00:21:03.150 --> 00:21:04.310 That was part of your question. 00:21:04.830 --> 00:21:08.630 So, in a non profit foundation, you have a board of trustees. 00:21:09.380 --> 00:21:13.050 And at the moment, those two trustees are myself, my co founder, Hannah. 00:21:13.620 --> 00:21:19.360 And for the first 10 years up until now of Ghost, I think that's 00:21:19.360 --> 00:21:20.920 been roughly the right model. 00:21:21.300 --> 00:21:23.470 Getting something going, getting off the ground. 00:21:23.910 --> 00:21:27.960 You really don't need decision by consensus or much oversight. 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:30.660 You just need to prove that there's a market for the thing you're doing. 00:21:30.730 --> 00:21:32.470 And that requires just simply moving quickly. 00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:36.690 one of the things I see often is, you know, people coming out with a big 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:40.270 manifesto and a big governance structure before they've built a product, which 00:21:40.280 --> 00:21:41.480 is the wrong way around of doing things. 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:43.220 Cause people aren't buying your governance structure. 00:21:43.470 --> 00:21:46.470 They're buying your products, but when, why people stick around, 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:50.420 Often when something gets popular or large is if it does have a good 00:21:50.420 --> 00:21:54.210 governance structure, which allows it to persist without inadvertently 00:21:55.150 --> 00:21:56.540 decimating itself at some point. 00:21:57.060 --> 00:22:02.130 And so as Ghost gets bigger, my intention, and I'm going to write a 00:22:02.130 --> 00:22:06.610 bit more about this soon, is to have, the board of trustees grow to have 00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:11.840 independently appointed, people that we have selected, but also to have, board 00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:14.090 seats that are elected by the community. 00:22:14.180 --> 00:22:14.935 And I think that's going to. 00:22:15.815 --> 00:22:18.015 It's going to be interesting figuring out, what are the different 00:22:18.095 --> 00:22:19.875 constituencies within that community? 00:22:19.875 --> 00:22:21.185 How long should a board seat work? 00:22:21.785 --> 00:22:24.335 But equally, there's some great reference material out there, you know? 00:22:24.435 --> 00:22:26.865 Rails has a foundation that seems to work pretty well. 00:22:26.895 --> 00:22:30.135 Drupal has a foundation, with, with elected board seats that 00:22:30.135 --> 00:22:31.575 seems to work pretty well. 00:22:31.945 --> 00:22:35.125 There are all kinds of organizations outside of software development and direct 00:22:35.125 --> 00:22:39.315 open source that have, collaborative board seats that oversee the larger 00:22:39.315 --> 00:22:42.075 direction of a nonprofit foundation, and that's, that's really That's exactly 00:22:42.075 --> 00:22:43.905 where, I want, I want to stand up. 00:22:44.185 --> 00:22:46.305 The buffs factor of me should eventually be zero. 00:22:46.635 --> 00:22:48.695 I do not want to be a benevolent dictator for life. 00:22:48.725 --> 00:22:52.653 I honestly, I think BDFL stuff is the dumbest idea alive. 00:22:53.245 --> 00:22:55.685 it was coined, I don't know if you know this already, you probably do. 00:22:55.985 --> 00:22:59.505 It was coined by the creator of Python who said it as a throwaway line, as a 00:22:59.505 --> 00:23:03.315 joke, that he was a benevolent dictator for life, not as a serious thing. 00:23:03.825 --> 00:23:04.955 And then for some reason. 00:23:05.185 --> 00:23:08.445 A whole bunch of people latched onto it and what bothers me about benevolent 00:23:08.455 --> 00:23:12.125 dictator for life Is that the word benevolent is doing way too much work in 00:23:12.125 --> 00:23:16.375 that sentence If you just said dictator for life in any other context, we would 00:23:16.375 --> 00:23:21.205 universally agree that that's a bad idea and when you have a A mission of 00:23:21.205 --> 00:23:24.935 democratizing publishing that it just doesn't feel like it makes sense So 00:23:25.065 --> 00:23:29.225 no my my intent I currently have a bus factor of 50 percent of the foundation. 00:23:29.565 --> 00:23:35.105 I would like to reduce that to zero I plan to not be in charge of, of Ghost for Life. 00:23:35.145 --> 00:23:38.775 I plan to very much not be even in control of Ghost for Life. 00:23:38.865 --> 00:23:42.545 I don't, at the very least, I don't own any of the assets. 00:23:42.645 --> 00:23:44.515 I don't own anything to do with it personally. 00:23:44.525 --> 00:23:46.825 Every single thing is owned by the foundation. 00:23:46.825 --> 00:23:49.855 So in that sense, the bus factory has already reduced the domain, 00:23:49.855 --> 00:23:51.405 the trademarks, all those things. 00:23:51.715 --> 00:23:52.875 those are already not mine. 00:23:52.945 --> 00:23:56.095 I have no financial or legal claim to them. 00:23:58.010 --> 00:24:02.780 Matt track: In of, you know, it's some of the edge cases of amazing product 00:24:02.810 --> 00:24:08.720 companies, and I'm not trying to align, you know, Mullenweg with Steve Jobs 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:13.900 by any stretch of the imagination, but we've seen amazing product 00:24:13.910 --> 00:24:18.200 companies led by one decision maker. 00:24:18.561 --> 00:24:18.860 Right. 00:24:19.080 --> 00:24:24.960 Maybe it is the BDFL for life in some instances, like an Apple, like a Microsoft 00:24:25.250 --> 00:24:30.030 where the like, like Elon with with let's say either a Tesla or SpaceX, like 00:24:30.080 --> 00:24:31.550 pick your pick your poison on that one. 00:24:32.570 --> 00:24:37.200 I feel like there always needs to be like this grand visionary and one 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:39.110 person who is leading that project. 00:24:39.700 --> 00:24:45.760 Real cutting edge decision making in an organization in the WordPress world. 00:24:46.120 --> 00:24:50.070 it, it's always felt like, Oh, we all have some choice, right? 00:24:50.070 --> 00:24:53.210 Don't we, don't we have some, some choice in this direction? 00:24:53.710 --> 00:24:59.700 And it's seemingly getting more obvious that, you know, all this, 00:24:59.710 --> 00:25:01.770 all roads lead back to Matt, right. 00:25:01.810 --> 00:25:06.460 And, and, and that decision making, how do you balance your 00:25:06.460 --> 00:25:08.450 grand vision for the platform. 00:25:08.995 --> 00:25:14.675 For your platform, Ghost, and how are decisions made in, in your world? 00:25:14.675 --> 00:25:19.945 Are, are you the, the leading decision maker, innovator, and like, you're setting 00:25:19.945 --> 00:25:24.845 the, the, the five to ten year roadmap, and, and sure, people can have their sort 00:25:24.845 --> 00:25:29.815 of say in it, but largely you're 90, 95 percent of the visionary behind Ghost? 00:25:31.465 --> 00:25:32.385 John Track: I think. 00:25:32.825 --> 00:25:38.765 One of the cultural moments, that we're in at the moment is, is celebrating founders 00:25:38.765 --> 00:25:43.235 and visionaries, people doing things in business to an almost insane degree 00:25:43.235 --> 00:25:47.035 to the point where they, you know, cult leader founder, it's not that different. 00:25:47.545 --> 00:25:49.825 And we've probably gone a little bit too far on that. 00:25:49.955 --> 00:25:52.685 I do think it is very helpful for getting. 00:25:54.265 --> 00:25:58.835 new ideas started, new products made to have someone who is 00:25:58.935 --> 00:26:01.305 deranged enough to believe they can change the world or whatever the 00:26:01.305 --> 00:26:02.865 correct version of that quote is. 00:26:03.255 --> 00:26:07.925 And I do think great products by and large are made, by individuals, 00:26:07.985 --> 00:26:09.355 certainly not by committees. 00:26:10.815 --> 00:26:14.505 think that the staying power of a company or, or an organization. 00:26:14.900 --> 00:26:20.670 Has to, at some point transcend one individual and, you know, to pick up on a 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:25.980 couple of the examples you mentioned that Apple continue to thrive after Steve Jobs. 00:26:26.310 --> 00:26:28.620 Now we can argue about whether or not they still make good products 00:26:28.620 --> 00:26:31.880 and whether there's the right person calling product shots there. 00:26:31.890 --> 00:26:34.260 And I would tend to say the answer to that is no. 00:26:34.840 --> 00:26:38.279 But the organization has outlasted because it was able to transcend. 00:26:38.410 --> 00:26:42.480 It was able to evolve after the founder was no longer around. 00:26:42.650 --> 00:26:46.610 Microsoft's, another great example, because we have, we have three axes to it. 00:26:46.620 --> 00:26:48.810 You have Bill Gates who got it going, had the big vision. 00:26:49.355 --> 00:26:52.475 You have Steve Ballmer who by all accounts made Microsoft flounder, 00:26:52.575 --> 00:26:55.725 but had the organization become very profitable, which is kind of what 00:26:55.725 --> 00:26:59.745 Tim Cook's doing now, and now we have Satya Nadella who's come in and okay. 00:27:00.165 --> 00:27:02.955 We now have big visionary ideas coming out of Microsoft. 00:27:02.955 --> 00:27:05.965 We have for a few years now, Microsoft is doing some of the most impressive 00:27:05.965 --> 00:27:10.065 hardware, software, investment, and acquisitions of any large tech company. 00:27:10.525 --> 00:27:13.745 And it is a visionary individual with big ideas, making decisions, 00:27:14.085 --> 00:27:15.295 but it's not the founder. 00:27:15.835 --> 00:27:19.025 So to the extent that I think you, you need one person. 00:27:20.021 --> 00:27:22.440 making big shots in order to do big things. 00:27:22.460 --> 00:27:23.150 I think that's true. 00:27:23.150 --> 00:27:24.040 I think I agree with that. 00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:28.910 Does it have to be one person for life or, the original founder of the company? 00:27:28.950 --> 00:27:29.910 I don't think so. 00:27:30.380 --> 00:27:32.650 in the context of ghosts, that's currently me. 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:34.340 Yes, I am that person. 00:27:34.350 --> 00:27:35.460 I make those decisions. 00:27:35.840 --> 00:27:36.920 I think I do an okay job. 00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:40.140 Although some would look at the size of ghosts as compared to WordPress 00:27:40.140 --> 00:27:43.180 and say, I've not done a good job and that's okay, but I don't 00:27:43.260 --> 00:27:44.730 intend for it to be me forever. 00:27:44.910 --> 00:27:47.270 I also don't intend for it to someday be a committee. 00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:50.370 I think you need one leader with clear ideas. 00:27:50.580 --> 00:27:52.130 I think the key difference that. 00:27:52.965 --> 00:27:56.195 I really hope WordPress ends up at, and certainly where I want us to end up 00:27:56.195 --> 00:27:59.845 at, is if you're going to democratize publishing, then that person should 00:27:59.865 --> 00:28:01.875 be democratically elected somehow. 00:28:02.455 --> 00:28:06.605 There should be some ability for the broader community to decide 00:28:06.605 --> 00:28:09.745 who that leader is, and then trust them to make good decisions and 00:28:09.825 --> 00:28:11.555 vote whether or not they are. 00:28:12.055 --> 00:28:18.350 without that, It is just a dictatorship, not a dictatorship in the sexy good way. 00:28:18.370 --> 00:28:25.230 If there is one of those, just a textbook dictatorship and history shows that, 00:28:25.330 --> 00:28:27.020 they usually all end the same way. 00:28:27.435 --> 00:28:28.505 Matt track: sustainability. 00:28:28.535 --> 00:28:31.985 One of the things that has come up with this whole WordPress 00:28:31.995 --> 00:28:33.925 versus WP Engine thing. 00:28:33.925 --> 00:28:39.115 Some folks are like, Oh, I didn't know you needed the money, Matt and and and co. 00:28:39.835 --> 00:28:40.175 Why? 00:28:40.215 --> 00:28:42.085 Why have you not just asked? 00:28:42.085 --> 00:28:42.355 Right? 00:28:42.355 --> 00:28:43.875 Why have you not just asked? 00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:45.050 For donations. 00:28:45.380 --> 00:28:46.860 I'm on the ghost, ghost. 00:28:46.860 --> 00:28:50.960 org slash pricing page, just looking at the pricing plans as a backdrop to 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.870 revenue and funding and stuff like this. 00:28:53.190 --> 00:28:56.330 It starts at 11 bucks a month for 500 subscribers, 500 of your 00:28:56.330 --> 00:28:59.210 own subscribers to your email list or members as you call them. 00:29:00.195 --> 00:29:02.270 11 31 63 to 49. 00:29:02.270 --> 00:29:04.760 This is monthly pricing and then there's yearly discount. 00:29:05.420 --> 00:29:10.130 Folks might say, well, If there's never a chance for outside funding, 00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:13.260 or maybe there is, I don't know, I'll let you highlight that. 00:29:13.530 --> 00:29:15.870 why not ask for a donation? 00:29:16.250 --> 00:29:18.510 you know, hey, Ghost is open source. 00:29:18.550 --> 00:29:23.160 we also need to survive and maybe hosting isn't going to carry us all the way. 00:29:23.330 --> 00:29:26.869 What are your thoughts on like that long term sustainability that 00:29:26.869 --> 00:29:29.364 goes outside of the pricing page? 00:29:29.364 --> 00:29:29.780 Hmm. 00:29:30.370 --> 00:29:30.820 John Track: Yeah. 00:29:30.910 --> 00:29:35.880 it's kind of easy, by, by having these things live in one organization. 00:29:36.610 --> 00:29:38.050 we have the, the simplest thing in the world. 00:29:38.070 --> 00:29:41.300 We can say, if you want to contribute to ghost, you feel aligned with the project. 00:29:41.300 --> 00:29:42.420 You would like it to succeed. 00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:46.890 Use our hosting, our hosting pays for the open source developers who work on 00:29:46.890 --> 00:29:48.300 the core products and improve it for you. 00:29:48.310 --> 00:29:51.650 So by simply using ghost, you are contributing to ghost. 00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:54.990 If you never write a single pull request, but you use our hosting, 00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:58.050 you're directly funding the nonprofit foundation that makes this possible. 00:29:58.400 --> 00:29:59.600 And that's not a coincidence. 00:29:59.650 --> 00:30:02.810 the idea of this business model was exactly that was to make it 00:30:02.820 --> 00:30:05.300 so that the users of the products are the people who are investing 00:30:05.300 --> 00:30:06.570 in the future of the product. 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:12.080 We have tried having like a donation button or mentioning it on the site. 00:30:12.590 --> 00:30:15.920 I think we found much the same, thing as the WordPress foundation has found, which 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:17.870 is you don't get very many donations. 00:30:17.970 --> 00:30:22.950 people, for the most part, don't donate to things like tech 00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:24.260 companies and tech products. 00:30:24.260 --> 00:30:26.820 It just doesn't, that's not a thing that happens. 00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:31.585 And I had in my head that, when Go started, I was like, Oh, maybe You know, 00:30:31.855 --> 00:30:33.395 Google will give us a bunch of money. 00:30:33.395 --> 00:30:36.345 Like they give Mozilla, these grand ideas of philanthropy 00:30:36.425 --> 00:30:37.715 that hasn't panned out either. 00:30:38.095 --> 00:30:41.845 So making the hosting model work, making sure that we have enough margins to run 00:30:41.845 --> 00:30:43.965 the business has been super important. 00:30:44.375 --> 00:30:46.245 but it also hasn't been very complicated. 00:30:46.555 --> 00:30:49.585 I think when I think about what could be other ways that we would 00:30:49.585 --> 00:30:54.175 make, the organization, you more financially successful or to kind 00:30:54.175 --> 00:30:55.315 of have other revenue streams. 00:30:55.835 --> 00:30:59.855 There's a lot of options, but they all kind of hinge on incentives. 00:31:00.315 --> 00:31:04.135 something that I think has been missing in the WordPress space is why should 00:31:04.145 --> 00:31:06.285 anyone contribute 5 percent back? 00:31:06.535 --> 00:31:07.875 What are they getting in return? 00:31:08.090 --> 00:31:13.510 Because if it's just a kind of give me 5 percent or I'll go nuclear, it's just not 00:31:13.510 --> 00:31:17.750 a very good incentive, but there's lots of other projects that have done this better. 00:31:17.890 --> 00:31:19.990 And we're not one of them because we haven't tried this yet. 00:31:19.990 --> 00:31:25.020 But if you look at Laravel, you know, they have a sponsors section and for, 00:31:25.490 --> 00:31:29.470 I think it's thousands of dollars per month, you can, sponsor the Laravel. 00:31:30.069 --> 00:31:33.585 community, the open source project, and you will get a prominent partners page 00:31:33.605 --> 00:31:37.315 on the website listed as an official partner, recognizing what you do, 00:31:37.405 --> 00:31:39.135 marketing your services if required. 00:31:39.655 --> 00:31:43.095 So it seems like the price point would be pretty high if 00:31:43.105 --> 00:31:44.485 WordPress did something similar. 00:31:44.895 --> 00:31:49.975 It seems like if there was something you got in return for financially 00:31:50.067 --> 00:31:53.315 contributing to the WordPress project, Then you're selling a product. 00:31:53.515 --> 00:31:55.585 but if you're just saying, give us money and we're not giving you anything 00:31:55.585 --> 00:31:56.935 back, yeah, that's a harder sell. 00:31:57.275 --> 00:32:03.315 It's a harder sell, for really anyone, but particularly for a software product 00:32:03.385 --> 00:32:06.845 that you can't see, you know, you have to come up with something, I think. 00:32:07.365 --> 00:32:11.895 Matt track: It spurred, that spurred something that is, is highly debated 00:32:12.105 --> 00:32:17.625 in the WordPress space is where do you draw the line between contributions 00:32:17.635 --> 00:32:21.645 to WordPress and just like profiting off a product and just to frame that. 00:32:21.985 --> 00:32:24.345 There's just a lot of people who have plugins and themes. 00:32:24.610 --> 00:32:29.510 And services that they sell and they say, well, the byproduct of me selling 00:32:29.510 --> 00:32:34.350 this product means that people are interested in sticking around wordpress. 00:32:34.510 --> 00:32:35.690 Let's call it a page builder. 00:32:35.690 --> 00:32:38.410 For instance, you might say, I built this page builder. 00:32:38.580 --> 00:32:40.550 It's actually helping people use wordpress. 00:32:40.820 --> 00:32:43.280 I'm getting paid, let's say 200 bucks a year for it. 00:32:44.050 --> 00:32:45.972 Therefore, I'm contributing to WordPress. 00:32:46.390 --> 00:32:47.600 Where do you stand on that? 00:32:47.630 --> 00:32:48.310 I see that. 00:32:48.310 --> 00:32:50.230 I'll frame it, and I'll give you a second to think about it. 00:32:50.530 --> 00:32:53.920 I think of it as, well, you're contributing to, let's say, the 00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.670 greater ecosystem of WordPress, right? 00:32:56.670 --> 00:33:00.260 Users and other businesses kind of benefit from you building this product. 00:33:00.560 --> 00:33:03.300 But you're not contributing to open source WordPress. 00:33:03.300 --> 00:33:07.090 Like, you're not contributing to the core of WordPress, which impacts WordPress. 00:33:07.270 --> 00:33:11.300 All millions of people who use WordPress, you're contributing to the 00:33:11.310 --> 00:33:15.300 ecosystem, which helps maybe, let's say, a hundred thousand people in 00:33:15.300 --> 00:33:18.560 the ecosystem use WordPress better. 00:33:18.810 --> 00:33:19.750 That's the way I see it. 00:33:19.780 --> 00:33:23.230 Where do you draw the line between, I'm contributing by making a 00:33:23.230 --> 00:33:27.500 product, or I'm contributing by committing lines of open source code? 00:33:28.925 --> 00:33:33.275 John Track: Yeah, I think the, the litmus test that I would use, and I'm 00:33:33.275 --> 00:33:37.925 not suggesting everyone should use this is, would WordPress exist today 00:33:38.005 --> 00:33:43.025 or be as large as it is today, if you took away all of the non official, 00:33:43.155 --> 00:33:46.805 Themes and plugins, if, if those just went away and the only themes and 00:33:46.875 --> 00:33:51.295 plugins available were automatics, would, would WordPress be around? 00:33:51.335 --> 00:33:52.125 Would it be as large? 00:33:52.615 --> 00:33:54.065 If the answer to that is no. 00:33:54.105 --> 00:33:58.045 And I think it's up to everyone to hypothesize for themselves. 00:33:58.075 --> 00:34:02.535 If the answer to that is no, then it follows that the people who have created. 00:34:03.140 --> 00:34:07.380 Those themes and plugins have been in part responsible for the growth 00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:08.560 and the success of WordPress. 00:34:08.600 --> 00:34:12.020 And if that's true, then they have contributed in my mind, they've 00:34:12.020 --> 00:34:15.800 contributed a lot, regardless of whether or not they make money 00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:17.280 from the things they've worked on. 00:34:17.370 --> 00:34:20.130 You should be allowed to make a business that no one should 00:34:20.130 --> 00:34:21.290 forbid you from doing that. 00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:24.730 so those, those contributions I think are completely valid and it's 00:34:24.740 --> 00:34:26.270 not an impossible thing to measure. 00:34:26.300 --> 00:34:29.375 It's yes, it's a hard thing to measure, but you know, again, 00:34:29.450 --> 00:34:31.245 Drupal, Does this pretty well. 00:34:31.245 --> 00:34:34.215 They have a really clear framework for how contributions are measured 00:34:34.215 --> 00:34:35.455 and what things are included. 00:34:35.665 --> 00:34:37.645 It's self reported, but there's oversight. 00:34:37.645 --> 00:34:40.615 There's a clear decision making framework around what things 00:34:40.615 --> 00:34:41.885 are and are not recognized. 00:34:42.325 --> 00:34:46.675 And they've created incentives around, what it means to be a contributor and 00:34:46.675 --> 00:34:50.515 how you're recognized as, you know, being a maker or a takers as Dries put it. 00:34:50.985 --> 00:34:51.235 So. 00:34:51.710 --> 00:34:54.770 There's ways to do it, but I think every participant in an ecosystem 00:34:54.780 --> 00:34:56.550 is contributing to that ecosystem. 00:34:57.430 --> 00:35:00.830 Is there another definition of, of contribution, which is purely about 00:35:00.830 --> 00:35:02.190 core and evolving the core platform? 00:35:02.730 --> 00:35:03.150 Sure. 00:35:03.870 --> 00:35:05.420 but you know what, I'm not sure. 00:35:06.600 --> 00:35:09.230 I'm not sure if that should be entirely volunteer. 00:35:10.120 --> 00:35:11.410 Based all the time. 00:35:11.550 --> 00:35:14.180 I remember when I, you know, I was never paid to contribute to WordPress. 00:35:14.180 --> 00:35:18.770 And I remember it was almost a dirty word to consider like, being paid to 00:35:18.790 --> 00:35:22.890 contribute to open source, almost like it should be purely altruistic and we 00:35:22.890 --> 00:35:25.880 should all just collaborate because then the thing gets better and we all 00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:28.380 benefit from it and that's a lovely idea. 00:35:28.380 --> 00:35:31.920 But in the meantime, The rest of the web is moving forward without us. 00:35:31.980 --> 00:35:36.070 And as Morten has pointed out on more than one occasion, there's a lot of people 00:35:36.125 --> 00:35:39.960 contributing meaningfully to WordPress who are struggling to put food on their table. 00:35:40.550 --> 00:35:44.910 and the idea of bug bounties or paying open source contributors is kind of, Ooh. 00:35:45.455 --> 00:35:49.185 No, we can't talk about that, but this is, this should be everyone 00:35:49.195 --> 00:35:50.765 volunteering and working together. 00:35:51.115 --> 00:35:54.685 And I think maybe this is just a, maybe a controversial opinion. 00:35:54.685 --> 00:35:58.655 I think maybe we're at the end of the road for that ideology of open source. 00:35:58.695 --> 00:36:02.235 I think maybe open source projects need to generate revenue and they 00:36:02.235 --> 00:36:03.735 need to pay their contributors. 00:36:04.015 --> 00:36:07.645 And in doing so create an incentive for people to contribute. 00:36:08.075 --> 00:36:09.035 I don't know what that looks like. 00:36:09.065 --> 00:36:12.395 I don't even know if that's right, but that's kind of where I'm leaning. 00:36:12.635 --> 00:36:13.175 after. 00:36:13.870 --> 00:36:15.020 Two decades of doing this, 00:36:15.925 --> 00:36:17.025 Matt track: John O'Nolan, it's ghost. 00:36:17.415 --> 00:36:20.185 org, Independent Technology for Modern Publishing. 00:36:20.195 --> 00:36:21.375 I might come back. 00:36:21.615 --> 00:36:22.365 All right, listen, I 00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:22.920 John Track: please do. 00:36:23.585 --> 00:36:24.885 Matt track: come back to Ghost. 00:36:25.095 --> 00:36:30.285 you know, I, WordPress, is as much criticism as Gutenberg gets, from like 00:36:30.285 --> 00:36:35.355 a page builder perspective, writing in WordPress, publishing posts in WordPress. 00:36:35.740 --> 00:36:37.450 Is a pretty good experience. 00:36:37.490 --> 00:36:40.140 and Gutenberg does elevate that in my opinion. 00:36:40.160 --> 00:36:42.800 And ghost is right there with it. 00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:44.960 I've been doing a video where I'm evaluating other platforms 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:47.000 for just the writing experience. 00:36:47.270 --> 00:36:48.600 Ghost is fantastic. 00:36:48.650 --> 00:36:51.190 when I first started writing on it, I was like, this is, this is great. 00:36:51.290 --> 00:36:53.050 you know, plenty of integrations, check it out. 00:36:53.050 --> 00:36:56.700 Don't, don't just listen to me about my bias to gravity forms. 00:36:56.700 --> 00:36:59.900 There are a ton of integrations there, in, in the platform. 00:36:59.900 --> 00:37:04.670 And again, if you're doing a newsletter and especially monetizing a the dashboard, 00:37:04.740 --> 00:37:09.020 the, the data that it surfaces for your, publishing business is great. 00:37:09.680 --> 00:37:14.490 But, I am plagued, you know, I've been addicted to the power user like 00:37:14.500 --> 00:37:16.230 page building experience in WordPress. 00:37:16.230 --> 00:37:19.860 And that's, that's the part that is also like tying me to WordPress. 00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:22.235 Like, I just need to, I just need to Can I add another column here? 00:37:22.235 --> 00:37:23.815 Can I make category pages? 00:37:24.005 --> 00:37:25.045 Can I do this in a browser? 00:37:25.045 --> 00:37:28.085 Cause I don't know a lick of code for any of this stuff. 00:37:28.515 --> 00:37:32.015 it's a powerful drug and it does have me hooked, but ghost is fantastic. 00:37:32.035 --> 00:37:33.915 And check out the themes that are available. 00:37:34.275 --> 00:37:36.575 because maybe it'll make, make your life easier. 00:37:36.625 --> 00:37:36.985 it did. 00:37:37.015 --> 00:37:37.595 It does. 00:37:37.655 --> 00:37:38.085 It does. 00:37:38.085 --> 00:37:39.165 For me, it did for me. 00:37:39.165 --> 00:37:39.515 And then. 00:37:39.750 --> 00:37:41.680 Yeah, I got hooked on that automations thing that I needed. 00:37:42.200 --> 00:37:42.740 Ghost. 00:37:43.270 --> 00:37:43.770 org. 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:44.900 Check it out, John. 00:37:44.930 --> 00:37:46.000 Fantastic conversation. 00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:46.870 Thanks for hanging out today. 00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:48.280 John Track: Thank you for having me. 00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:50.500 You know, there's, there's a lot of great platforms out there and 00:37:50.500 --> 00:37:52.490 you don't have to pick just one. 00:37:52.750 --> 00:37:54.840 Just cause you use one doesn't mean you have to be against the other. 00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:56.470 That's I'll just leave you with that parting thought. 00:37:56.490 --> 00:38:00.620 Use different tools for different jobs and enjoy them all and compare and 00:38:00.620 --> 00:38:02.460 contrast them, get inspiration from them. 00:38:02.500 --> 00:38:05.700 one of the great initiatives Drupal had, I feel like I've mentioned Drupal last 00:38:05.700 --> 00:38:08.280 day was, core Getting off the island. 00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:12.750 And, I think it was in 2012, Dries encouraged everyone to simply go out 00:38:12.780 --> 00:38:15.700 into the world and look at other open source projects, look at other products, 00:38:15.700 --> 00:38:16.890 see what you could learn from them. 00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:22.310 And so, you know, I don't want anyone to come and use Ghost and leave WordPress. 00:38:22.330 --> 00:38:25.640 But I would love everyone who uses WordPress to try Ghost and see what they 00:38:25.640 --> 00:38:27.850 think and, tell us where we could improve. 00:38:27.910 --> 00:38:30.470 there's, it's a good thing that we have a diversity of platforms. 00:38:30.490 --> 00:38:31.540 It should not be. 00:38:31.955 --> 00:38:34.475 large proportion of the web all on the exact same thing. 00:38:34.555 --> 00:38:36.145 Let's have lots of different options. 00:38:36.990 --> 00:38:38.940 Matt track: Custom fields coming to ghost soon. 00:38:39.675 --> 00:38:43.985 John Track: You know, I tweeted that kind of as a joke from the WordPress account. 00:38:44.005 --> 00:38:44.875 I mean, from the, 00:38:44.925 --> 00:38:45.345 Matt track: it now. 00:38:45.790 --> 00:38:47.080 John Track: from the core ghost account. 00:38:47.110 --> 00:38:48.870 And, yeah, the response was pretty overwhelming. 00:38:49.640 --> 00:38:52.210 So let's, let's see if we can do anything there. 00:38:52.510 --> 00:38:54.215 Matt track: look, look, look for, look to ghost. 00:38:54.215 --> 00:38:56.585 org for custom post types and custom fields coming soon. 00:38:56.595 --> 00:38:57.105 All right, everybody. 00:38:57.125 --> 00:38:58.645 Thanks for listening to today's episode. 00:38:59.755 --> 00:39:00.855 The wpminute. 00:39:00.855 --> 00:39:02.385 com the wpminute. 00:39:02.385 --> 00:39:03.955 com slash subscribe to stay connected. 00:39:03.955 --> 00:39:05.115 We'll see you in the next episode.