DUKE: All right, Cory, what are we talking about today?
CJ: man, Duke.
Today.
We're going to talk about how do you want to call it?
What do you want to call it?
How to be
DUKE: Yeah, this is kind of a weird title, right?
It's kind of like, um, like rough times.
CJ: Yeah.
How to weather the rough times.
All right.
That was you.
DUKE: yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
It sounds good.
CJ: All right.
So today, Duke, we're talking about how do we weather the rough times?
DUKE: And, , are we saying that we're in rough times now?
Or are we just saying , just in case?
CJ: You know, a little bit of both.
I think the market right now is as rough as I've ever seen it,
except for the couple of months at the start of the pandemic.
DUKE: Yeah, , it's been a rocket ship ride, right?
Like 15 years.
And for me, and just go, go, go, go, go the whole time through.
But it's hard once you've gained all the, like a ton of marketable skills, that it's
hard to see if it is a tough time or not.
, if you're constantly working, um,
CJ: Yeah, that's the thing, right?
Like I, I mean, so the context is, I haven't not been working.
So, you know, it's hard to say that it's a tough time, but I, I, I'm kind
of judging by my inbound action, right?
, how many, , folks do I see show up in my LinkedIn, , inbox like
day to day or week to week.
. And that, traffic has definitely slowed and my, presence in the ecosystem
has probably multiplied, right?
So, I don't think it's a reflection of me.
DUKE: Yeah.
And I would say of the stuff I get in LinkedIn, it's a lot
less lucrative by the get go.
I'd say like, I always use the 45 an hour jobs as My temperature gauge.
So there would be like a couple of times a year, somebody who didn't know would
be like, Hey, we need to like a brilliant service now, rockstar 45 an hour.
I'm like, okay, that's funny.
But it's a lot more often now.
It's a lot more often.
CJ: I agree.
I agree.
DUKE: so whether it's just the market's getting more saturated
with talent, or it's harder times ahead, I don't know, man.
Like, there's a lot of stuff going on.
It's hard to, be an oracle in these times.
But maybe instead of trying to predict hard times or not, Or dedicate our
energies to just biting our nails over it.
why don't we talk about ways that we can hedge against hard times.
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah, no doubt.
How do you weather the storm?
I love it.
I'll kick it off.
Like the first thing I'd say is, is your network, right?
Like you build your network in the, good times.
So that it's there for you in the lean times.
DUKE: How do you build a network?
CJ: so this one is hard , especially for people in our ecosystem, right?
Because people in our ecosystem tend to come in a bit more on
the shy side than most, right?
Like, when you look at it, but the way that you build a network is by talking to
people and forming relationships, right?
You know, like, Hey, how you doing?
I'm such and such.
And , what are you doing here?
You're right.
Like, you know, how long you been around?
Tell me about yourself, like all of those kinds of things, they told you,
as adults, you stop making friends, but, all the same things that you do
to make friends, you do to build a relationships with folks who create
your net, your network, and I don't necessarily differentiate between the
people I know, you know, Who lived down the block for me as a friend or
the people who I grew up with, who are my friends, versus the people who I've
just worked with day in and day out in the service now ecosystem and see a
knowledge once a year, all these people are my, are my, are in my network, right?
And they're people who I see and I talk to, and I, you know, and I look
forward to talking to on about, you know, various different things and
look forward to seeing whenever I do
DUKE: Yeah, I would say it doesn't happen by accident.
Um, it must take a mindful time commitment.
So like, I think in other episodes, I'd say, Hey, listen, this is back when I
had 13 years experience, not 15, but I'm like, can you imagine how many
hours you've had dedicated to something?
If you did 30 minutes a day for every working day for 13 years.
You're like, you're like basically a year of pure learning ahead
of anybody else who starts now.
And so I always say like dedicate some time to it.
I think people don't, because they don't know explicitly what to do.
And you said it, talk to people.
And really seriously talk to them and don't act like you are a burden.
the one thing I wish people knew when they reached out to me on LinkedIn,
like, so my policies, whenever somebody reaches out, I always like
say, Hey, what can I do for you?
Cause it's a great door opener because maybe there is
something I can do for them.
And I build my network by doing something for them.
CJ: Yeah.
DUKE: Right.
or just get to know them a bit.
I do a little bit of recruiting, so it helps to know people.
Right.
but one thing I get constantly back is I just want to have you in my network.
like, but why, like, so you can roll the dice every day and see if I show up
on your feed, you know, and, and not, not, I don't say in a morally judgment
way, like you're bad for that, but I'm just saying it could be so much more.
Like you just started your ServiceNow journey.
Do you have any questions?
CJ: Yeah, it could be so much more, right?
I love that.
and just because we're connected on LinkedIn, does
that mean I'm in your network?
Does that mean you're, or more importantly, does that mean
that you're in my network?
so if you're joining me on LinkedIn, if we're connecting on LinkedIn
and you're initiating that so that I could be in your network.
You want me to have you in my network, right?
Like, like That's what you're looking for really in these situations.
And, so like, reach out, like say, Hey, CJ, how's it going?
you know, I, I listened to that one thing you said on a podcast.
I really liked that thing, or I really hate it.
You know, the other thing you said, right?
Like that, you were completely wrong.
I love it when people tell me I'm wrong.
Trust me.
those are interesting conversations.
And so like, whatever, but just reach out and let's have a conversation.
Let's talk, let's get to know each other.
Then I remember.
And then when I get like a recruiter reaching out to me for
a thing that I don't do or at a rate that I don't take, right?
Like I'm thinking, Oh, but I know this other person, right?
And they've just reached out and I know that they do this thing.
And from talking to them, I know that they're really good.
Yeah.
Let me connect you.
DUKE: it's simple stuff too.
So I'm not going to sugarcoat it.
some people will be like, Hey, I heard this episode of CGA and the Duke.
I really liked it.
Love to be in your network.
Sure, man.
What, what can I do for you?
What else can I do for you?
CJ: Yeah.
Right.
DUKE: Right.
And people don't realize how open that door is.
If somebody says, what can I do for you?
think of something.
Especially if you're new in your career, think of something.
Like, can you explain this to me?
Maybe not send me the list of your requirements you have to develop.
Maybe not that.
But, really be bold and go ahead and talk about, tell me what your goals are.
Tell me what you're struggling with.
and actually, you said it in one of the earlier episodes, Corey.
What did you say?
If I've answered something for you, then I have invested in you.
CJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, uh, it's a hack, to create a stronger relationship with someone
that you don't really know, or you're not really close with, right?
It's that when you ask someone a favor.
to do your favor and they actually do it.
They feel closer to you instead of the other way around.
It's a weird, human psychology thing.
But like if I say, hey, Duke, you know what?
I really need you to come through and mow my grass, right?
Like tomorrow.
Can you do that for me?
Yeah.
No, no, no problem.
CJ.
I'll come through, right?
Like you come in and you, you cut my grass and you're going to feel like, wow, like
CJ trusted me enough to come and ask me to do this favor for him to do this thing.
Like, and then now like, man, I.
Feel a little closer to him, right?
Like, cause he thought of me, right?
Like, that's kind of how it works, right?
And so now that relationship is stronger.
DUKE: what else can we say for networking?
, Like, okay, just participate in conversations.
Remember if I said if you dedicate 30 minutes a day To engaging the ServiceNow
community, be it LinkedIn, SNDev Slack channel, ServiceNow developer discord,
the main community site, just spend 30 minutes engaging, , ask further
questions in a thread that interests you.
Put in your own idea, if you think you even have even close to an
answer, even if it's the wrong answer.
but your name starts showing up in conversations, right?
People start trying to figure out who this person is.
CJ: Absolutely.
DUKE: like another thing is just participate in the conversation.
I know social media is not for everybody, but community can be,
CJ: Yeah, you know, and I'm going to say something that some
people are not going to like, I'm going to say this, get over it.
if social media is not your thing, get over it.
It's a tool.
You go to work.
Work's not your thing.
You do it anyway.
Like, you know, no, I mean, but it's like you do, the thing
that you need to get ahead.
, and so sometimes that's putting the time in on social media.
And so do it anyway.
and if it's a privacy thing, figure out the privacy controls and lock your stuff
down to a, to a point, not excessively.
Right.
Cause still you, the idea here is that you want to be open, but there are
privacy controls that you can bring to bear that can make the experience
feel not as vulnerable, right.
Like as you might, as it might feel that at first glance, so yeah, do it anyway.
DUKE: All right.
CJ: Go for
DUKE: sorry.
Yeah, I got some of the dovetails into the next point using
CJ: Yeah, yeah, go for
DUKE: be certain of your capabilities and make a narrative about it.
So just coaching somebody.
Earlier this week, who was like, you know, I got to see the CSA months ago and,
you know, I haven't got a single bite.
It's really hard.
Like, we don't know what employers want.
And it's just like nothing on the LinkedIn profile,
CJ: Oh,
DUKE: cert.
And it's just you want to catch fish, right?
Put a net in the water.
CJ: Yeah.
DUKE: Um, and You know, the net can't just be like a single word.
It can't be like service now.
Can't be just a flow designer.
It's got to be caught in a narrative.
So like something has to get the fish to get interested in that debate.
Right.
And so make sure that you have things that you can explain about what you
did on your resume and or LinkedIn.
I prefer LinkedIn just because it's got that passive measure.
It was like people while you're sleeping, people are finding you.
CJ: Yeah, that right.
Like, I'll be honest, like LinkedIn is probably my favorite
social media platform right now.
It's because it's so relevant.
Everything that I do there is just so relevant, right?
Like, all the people there are doing things that I want to talk about
that I want to hear about, right?
Right.
Did I find exciting and, and it's like you said, it's really passive in the
sense that like, I just got to log in and then boom, LinkedIn is going to
show me like all of this cool stuff.
Right.
And so, yeah, I'm, I'm a hundred percent with you on that.
I'm there.
DUKE: you can't let the abstract tokens of the capability, i.
e.
the certs, right?
The certs are important.
Again, I'm not anti cert, jeepers, creepers, stop.
Okay, but I'm just saying, like, if you look at 10 LinkedIn profiles and they
all say CSA, which one do you want?
and truthfully, if you even gave me one that said CSA, it's like, I still
don't know what this person can do.
CJ: Fair enough.
DUKE: on the LinkedIn profile, you want to see a story of something you did.
know what I mean?
CJ: Yeah, intrigue me, right?
Okay.
So, so this, this dovetails Duke into, uh, a thing that, that I've said to
people in the past, when you're trying to get a job, this is almost like Tinder.
Right?
Like you're trying to get a date, you know, when you're on an interview, like
both of you are filling each other out to try to see if you want to take this
to the next level, like getting a job.
It's like the same thing, right?
Like you're going to, you got to put something out there that makes people
interested in and taking that next step, which is calling you, contacting you or
swiping whatever way you got to swipe in order to indicate liking somebody.
Right?
You know, that's, that's what this is.
And that's what you're just describing, right?
Make your profile interesting enough that I won't swipe it.
Right, left, whatever it is to get to, to get you to respond.
and I think that's, I think that's incredibly important.
DUKE: it's true for interviews too.
So let's just say, like, for whatever reason, you, you don't have
LinkedIn, you don't have resume, but you're still interviewing.
how do you think they're going to pick you from other people?
CJ: Yeah.
, DUKE: I think essentially employers want a couple abstract things they
want to know the type and scale of the problems you can solve.
Without having oversight.
CJ: I love the way you can always contextualize this stuff,
Duke, because you're absolutely,
DUKE: Thanks, bro.
I mean, it's actually coming from you.
CJ: now you always put it in this, like this container that makes it
so easy to understand, the type and scale of the problems you can
solve without oversight, right?
Like, that's amazing.
that's exactly what, what employers are looking for,
DUKE: Yeah.
No matter, no matter the technology, right.
It's just like you'd be doing Salesforce stuff.
You could be a project manager.
It's but what have you done and to what scale?
So if you describe how you built, All these different catalog items and
you're very being very descriptive your resume and your interview about the
catalog items You've built maybe that tells me Maybe this person can take
care of my catalog item backlog like who doesn't have one of those, right?
CJ: Yeah,
DUKE: But at least they could just say okay put them here And then they can
go watch them go and then I can get on with the rest of my life, not managing
this person, not managing, but not, not having constant oversight on them.
CJ: Yeah,
DUKE: But then maybe you say, well, I got, Oh, I had all these, I had
all these stakeholders and they were really mad about something.
And I got everybody to agree on something that, you know, they didn't all come
to the table on, but we all agreed.
And then it was successful this way.
And it's like, Oh, well now I can actually put these people in front of some of my
stakeholders and take some of the heat
CJ: Absolutely.
DUKE: There's so many people were kind of like, Well, what can you do?
What do you want me to do?
CJ: Yeah.
DUKE: it's just like, it adds labor to the system.
CJ: Yeah.
DUKE: I know where it comes from, right?
You're trying to facilitate, right?
You're trying to, , be flexible and receptive or kind of Bruce Lee's
like, take the shape of the vessel.
But also just fill in the blanks for them to write, like, fill in the blanks.
I guess that's what I'm trying to say.
CJ: No, I agree.
Approach this question differently.
Not what can I do for you?
this is what I can do for you.
Right?
Let's let's reframe how this question comes out.
Right?
From a question actually into a statement.
Right.
Like you coming into the room with me and they'll say, Hey,
what do you need help with?
Cause I can do it.
Tell me, Hey, I noticed that X, Y, Z problem.
And this is how I can do that through ABC, boom, all of a sudden now I'm intrigued.
Right.
Cause you've saved me a whole lot of labor.
I didn't have to tell you what the problem is and I didn't
have to go through any of that.
Trying to get you to understand you already know.
And then you're also going to tell me how you're going to solve it.
Now.
I just got to think about it.
Whether or not I think that's a good solution.
Like, I mean, yeah, yeah.
DUKE: I was telling my training cohort this, , the other day, , my
cohort three just started.
And, there was a lot of questions about, are you going to teach
us how to, write on LinkedIn?
Are you going to teach us what keywords to use?
how do we get into these interviews to begin with?
And what do we do once we're there?
There's a lot of curiosity about this.
Because they're noticing the whole, like, must have two years
experience that the market is at,
CJ: right.
DUKE: And everybody knows my philosophy on that is that it's just an abstract.
It's because the market is finding too much difficulty finding out what
capabilities does the CSA actually have, Um, it's important too, right, because
all the people coming in via RiseUp, if we are going into hard times...
It's gonna be difficult, right?
So how, how are they going to overcome that kind of narrative challenge when
it's like, oh, you got to have this two year barrier, but you got to understand
the barriers abstract, they're doing it as a self defense mechanism, because
they don't want to risk hiring people that really don't have capability.
That makes sense.
And so what you have to do is going right back to like, know your
capabilities is describe a situation.
So it's like, oh, you want to service now developed with 2 years experience.
No, maybe I don't have 2 years experience, but here's something I built on my PDI.
I have a friend who has a soaping business.
That soaping business requires a ton of raw ingredient management.
If they pour all the raw ingredients and find out that they were
short on one of them, they can't, like, put the ingredients back,
so they've essentially wasted an entire batch worth of ingredients.
And so, we built them a system on ServiceNow that tracks ingredient usage
for every batch, and every time you go to plan a batch with a recipe, it double
checks that you have enough of everything.
And if it doesn't, it adds all that stuff onto a shopping list.
And so basically we made the ingredient procurement proactive and
we completely eliminated batch wastage.
Is that something you might be interested in?
Is that kind of app development, the kind of app development that
would be interesting for your
CJ: Yes.
And
DUKE: company?
CJ: you've done, what you just did there is you took the proxy of, uh, years of
experience and eliminated that, right?
Because, and changed it to demonstrated experience.
DUKE: Yeah.
This is a yes, no question.
This is not a how many days question.
CJ: Right?
you go into the situation, like you need two years of experience.
You don't have two years of experience.
What experience do you have?
Right?
Like you have everything that you just mentioned, dude, like all
of that, like all of that soap making, , app experience, right?
And how all of that stuff works together.
That's the experience that you have.
And so that's the experience that you sell.
DUKE: yep.
CJ: And then boom, all of a sudden, because the, the, the two years of
experience thing is just a proxy, right?
It's a gate and gates are made to be hopped over.
DUKE: that's a great segue into another point is you got to keep your tools sharp.
CJ: Yeah, absolutely.
DUKE: Ain't no butcher out there with a dull knife going
to work eight hours a day, know?
CJ: Plus, have you ever tried to cut something with a dull knife, man?
That's dangerous.
DUKE: Yeah, didn't they say that?
Like the most dangerous knife is a dull knife?
CJ: Yep.
DUKE: I even feel this in my own world, sometimes , I get into contracts and I
have a luxury of doing a type of work that I want, that isn't necessarily,
like, right in the trenches of execution.
CJ: Right.
DUKE: what I mean?
So I'll be doing some architecture or some, or some marketing or some recruiting
or something like I'm just, I just have the luxury of doing something different.
but then I'll come back after a little bit and I'll be like, I haven't
looked at CMDB in like X years.
I haven't looked at change control in ages.
And so again, you have to dedicate, especially in, in
preparation for the hard times.
It's maybe you got to dedicate a little bit of time every week to
just taking something you don't use all the time and use it.
CJ: Yep.
Yep.
DUKE: those tools sharp and then if you're not very experienced yet Then
keeping your tool sharp means getting them sharp in the first place and
building on your PDI And if you want we'll drop like five or six or seven
different episodes into the description
CJ: About what and why you should build.
DUKE: Yeah building on your PDI there's just no way around
build build build build build
CJ: you're right.
It, it permeates like literally every single conversation that I have with
folks who are just joining the ecosystem.
It's like build.
You've learned the book knowledge.
You've read all the things, right?
Like, you took the test, ? But if you haven't put your hands on it and made
the stuff, at that point, I mean, yeah, like you, because that's what the job is.
The job is putting your hands on it and actually making the stuff.
So, you got to build, you got to get in there and look and the best
place to do is in your PDI, right?
Because you're going to mess up, you can always refresh that
thing to start over, right?
Like, you know, and yeah,
DUKE: And we've said it 100 times to if building the apps isn't your thing, maybe
more of like a process person or a BA, still work in your PDI, Take a process,
maybe even a process implementer, right?
take one of those processes, completely deconstruct it, figure
out exactly how it works for each role and build a playbook out of it.
There's just no excuse, whether you're a builder or a non builder, Yeah.
Yeah.
You can still be keeping your tools real sharp by operating in your PDI.
CJ: I totally agree, , there's no substitute for building it.
No matter what type of career you're pursuing in service now, right?
Because you're, you're, this is the, the ecosystem, the ecosystem is the
platform, So you can't no matter what you're doing in this thing, like
having that hands on experience in the actual platform, like it's just
going to, it's going to separate you.
It's going to elevate you.
Right.
It's going to make everything easier for you.
DUKE: There is an idea I'm really struggling to get my words around.
I feel like it's a, it's a proto rant.
CJ: All right.
All right.
DUKE: so help me out with this one, Corey.
everybody's like, Oh, you got a niche down niches or reaches.
And like, that's how you defend against bad times has become, you
become super niched in something.
Right.
But I'm dealing with a lot of.
And some of them are blessed to work for a company that has put them on a track
to become a ServiceNow person, but the company is pushing them way too wide.
okay, get the ServiceNow funnels, but also get the ITAM and the ITAM
and this and that, take these micro certifications that are trying to
micromanage, but micromanage wide.
CJ: Right.
DUKE: And I think there's just no use trying to niche down unless
you have some of the fundamentals.
So I'm trying to find a way to articulate.
The balance point that says up until this point don't worry about anything
else but the fundamentals Like, get your business rules, your client scripts,
your UI policies, your flow designer, your catalog stuff, table building,
your data structure, worry about that and only that for the time being, no
matter what anybody else says, because that's all you have time for if you're
also working a full time job and have a family, you know, if you're a grown up,
CJ: Yeah, Duke.
I get where you're at on this one, there's no substitute for knowing
the platform, because everything is built on top of the platform.
And so, as long as you know, the platform, you can learn the other things.
The other things are hesitate to say industry specific knowledge
layered on top of service down, but it kind of is kind of isn't
DUKE: for a few things, definitely, some of them are process things and
some of them are tech things, but they're not cost free specializations.
CJ: Exactly.
they're not cost free.
And they're also not just something that you can pluck out of the sky either.
, if you have been in the asset management space, right.
Before you got into service now and your employer is saying, well, we need you to
really, really niche down on like a GRC.
And it's kind of like, why would I do that?
Yeah.
When there's like hardware asset management, software
asset management, CMDB, right?
Like all of those things are related, right?
Like if I'm going to niche down, I'm going to niche down on that broad niche because
it aligns with my previous experience,
DUKE: Aligned with your previous.
Yep.
CJ: I'm not going to niche down on something completely new, And
then I, that I have no idea, you know, what it's about, but even
before I get to niching down there.
I'm going to make sure that I understand how the platform works because at
the end of the day, all of these vertical applications are still built
on top of the ServiceNow platform.
DUKE: Yep.
CJ: And ServiceNow used to have a really cool diagram, and I don't know
if they still use it or not, but, uh, it showed like the various, like
you said earlier in, in, the show here, duke, it showed like the, the
various layers of the onion and how.
All of these things are built on the platform, right?
And the nugget upon which everything else , extends from is the platform, right?
So knowing all of that stuff when you get to the table, right?
Like that's the level of generalization that you absolutely
need to have before you can start thinking about any kind of niche,
DUKE: I have a pretty good niche in SPM.
By the way, the best person at SPM in the entire world is Etta Wilson.
I'll drop a link for her
CJ: Yeah.
She's
DUKE: Yeah, she's super good.
but, I would say , my journey into that was borderline miraculous.
I did not enjoy project management, learning it in school.
, I hadn't had great experiences working with PMOs and, you know,
it's just a miracle that the customer was just like, no, you
know, way too much about service now.
. You must do this for us and we'll teach you the PMO stuff.
Where the hell was I going with this?
Ah, yes.
Okay.
So I get a customer that's basically like, it's too bad.
You're going to have to take this job and we're going to
teach you the PMO process stuff.
And you're just going to make sure that, the ServiceNow stuff
is on point, but I swear, man.
If I hadn't had years of tearing apart the ServiceNow platform, I
would not have survived that ordeal.
Because, you've discovered this recently, like you're just trying
to figure out what in the heck makes resource plans work, you know?
And you got, you got a resource plan and oh, a cost plans popped up over here.
And then somebody submitted a time card on a project task.
And it's like the resource plan actualized, but the cost plan didn't.
And what the heck's up with that?
And it's just like, you're not going to find out until you go dumpster
diving through a scripting loop.
CJ: And how do you know where, what a script include is and where to go
looking for it and how it's related.
Right.
DUKE: Yeah.
Yep.
CJ: Yeah, absolutely.
So when I was going dumpster diving, like you said, through
the entirety of the service.
Now, uh, instance in this case to try to figure out what was going on in this
thing, All of my platform is what I leaned on in order to figure it out.
Right.
It wasn't any specific SPM knowledge.
It was like, okay, I know how business rules work at work.
I know how script includes work.
I know where you can call certain things to get certain behaviors
from and where you can't.
Right.
I don't need to look at a data policy on this because that's not,
the experience that I'm seeing.
Right.
So all of this kind of stuff allows me to kind of really.
Dive in and troubleshoot and get to the point of figuring out like why
resource plans aren't working in this particular instance and without knowing
SPM because I'm not an SPM person.
You know, and I figured it out, got to the end of it, got it resolved,
fixed it up, client's happy, everybody's good, but yeah, I don't
know SPM, but I know the platform.
DUKE: maybe with the last few minutes, we keep getting asked to do more content
for independent, ServiceNow resources.
So maybe we can throw a spin on this purely for the indies.
What should we do if we feel like harder times are coming?
CJ: Yeah, this one's for the Indies out there only for the Indies out there.
If you feel like the hard times are coming, there's a
few things you could do, right?
Like, one of those things is be proactive, right?
Reach out to all your, contacts.
say I'm coming up on the end of a contract this month, right?
And you're like, I don't know where my next one is.
start reaching out to your network.
Say, Hey.
I'm coming up available.
I know you guys have reached out to me in the past about some work.
Just want to see if that's still on the table.
Right?
You know, if you guys need any help with anything, I know sometimes,
you know, I just 1st crack at me.
Cause you want to make yourself sound desirable too.
It's like, Hey.
Just reach out, you know, we've always wanted to do work in the past is the one
that lets, you know, I said, the next time that I'm coming available, I reach
out to you all and let you know, just in case you have something Things like that.
you can shake the tree that way.
And honestly, I'll be honest with you.
You should probably be doing that with your network anyway, not necessarily
asking around if they need you, but just reaching out to say, Hey, is
there anything I can do for you guys?
Right?
Like, is there anything I could do for you all right.
Like on this or that or whatever.
Yeah.
So, yeah, keep it in touch and make yourself top of mind is
what is how I'd, condense that
DUKE: Yeah, I would just say that there's only two ways to make money as an indie
CJ: Oh,
DUKE: is that you sell yourself direct to customer, or you
have a network of alliances.
that you wear their t shirt for, there's really no other way of that.
So, especially for those of you who are thinking about going indie versus are
already indie, this is, I think the one thing that everybody underestimates is
that your ability to execute is probably the easier part of the whole operation.
The forming of alliances, the grooming of alliances.
The keeping that stuff up to date, the selling of yourself
to, into the, into the ecosystem.
That's the hard part.
CJ: yeah, but the building of that, of that reputation where folks will
call you and when they've got the problem, the funny thing is, is SPM
problem we were talking about, I solved it for a guy who I'm his 1st call.
Right.
Like, like when he, whenever he's in the thing, right.
Like he's like, I know Corey's not going to let me down, never let him down.
Right.
Like I'm his guy.
Right.
And if it ever got to the point where it backs up against the wall,
really needs some work, I can dial them, He'll figure it out for me.
Cause that's how you roll.
DUKE: it's almost like the Indies have to take everything that we've
set up to this point so far and like, multiply it, it's like more intensity.
you have to have exercised more intense network building.
You have to have exercised more intense.
tool sharpening.
You have to have been past all the fundamentals and decided
on a niche and niche down.
a lot of Indies I know are just like, they have no problem
whatsoever, but they've already put in the work on those other things.
Right.
CJ: yeah.
I mean, because you have to operate your career as if, it's
a business because it is right.
you've got to be key at sales.
You got to be key at marketing, right?
Like you got to be key at reputation building.
You got to be key at execution, you've got to be key at all of those things
and all those things all the time through everything that you're doing
that's the indie experience right there.
So if you're not willing to do all of that stuff, man, you, you should check out.
DUKE: Yeah.
CJ: a, there's a lot of gigs in, in the ServiceNow ecosystem.
Good gigs, right.
That don't require you to do all of this work.
Right.
But you don't really get all the freedom that goes along
with being an indie either.
So I mean, it's off to all of it.
Ultimately, if you are here and this is what you want to do, and this
is what you love to do, then you need to be doing all that stuff.
like you said, do times two times 10 even
DUKE: the unfortunate thing.
It's not an eight hour day, right?
It comes out to, uh, it comes out to more than that.
So
CJ: that's the point, that's what we get up for.
It's not an eight hour day.
Put investment in and we reap the huge rewards out of it.
I mean, it's outside rewards, I think, for, for the amount of
effort that's put in tippy, right?
Uh, as long as, yeah, as long as you're good at it, right.
As long as you will commit the effort to be good at it,
I should rephrase that, right?
Because not every, no one's born.
I'm good at this stuff, right?
Like everyone had to put in an effort to get here,
DUKE: All right.
We're, uh, 36 minutes in.
CJ: man, dude.
Like we, once again, right?
Like we didn't know what we're going to talk about and here we
are 36 minutes in, that's crazy.
DUKE: Yeah.
And we're getting close to episode 100.
Aren't we?
CJ: Yeah.
We got to figure out something good for that.
Yo.
if you're listening out there, what we want to know is what do
you think episode 100 should be?
That's
DUKE: let's blow it
CJ: up on LinkedIn,
DUKE: we want it to be the best episode ever.
and we're at episode, this is episode 95.
Y'all got like five weeks to do this.
Come on.
CJ: right?
Episode 100.
Let's hear it.
DUKE: All right.
Thanks everybody for listening.
We'll see you on the next one.
CJ: We out.