WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:33.169 --> 00:01:34.679 DUKE: All right, Cory, what are we talking about today? 00:01:35.119 --> 00:01:35.599 CJ: man, Duke. 00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:35.919 Today. 00:01:35.919 --> 00:01:38.379 We're going to talk about how do you want to call it? 00:01:38.379 --> 00:01:38.829 What do you want to call it? 00:01:38.829 --> 00:01:39.199 How to be 00:01:39.269 --> 00:01:40.809 DUKE: Yeah, this is kind of a weird title, right? 00:01:40.809 --> 00:01:43.199 It's kind of like, um, like rough times. 00:01:43.496 --> 00:01:43.976 CJ: Yeah. 00:01:43.996 --> 00:01:46.006 How to weather the rough times. 00:01:46.006 --> 00:01:46.226 All right. 00:01:46.226 --> 00:01:46.616 That was you. 00:01:46.726 --> 00:01:47.066 DUKE: yeah. 00:01:47.066 --> 00:01:47.336 Okay. 00:01:47.356 --> 00:01:47.676 Yeah. 00:01:47.686 --> 00:01:48.106 It sounds good. 00:01:48.536 --> 00:01:48.756 CJ: All right. 00:01:48.946 --> 00:01:52.596 So today, Duke, we're talking about how do we weather the rough times? 00:01:53.222 --> 00:01:56.412 DUKE: And, , are we saying that we're in rough times now? 00:01:56.412 --> 00:01:58.362 Or are we just saying , just in case? 00:01:58.929 --> 00:02:00.219 CJ: You know, a little bit of both. 00:02:00.269 --> 00:02:05.079 I think the market right now is as rough as I've ever seen it, 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:09.309 except for the couple of months at the start of the pandemic. 00:02:10.602 --> 00:02:12.702 DUKE: Yeah, , it's been a rocket ship ride, right? 00:02:12.702 --> 00:02:13.712 Like 15 years. 00:02:13.712 --> 00:02:17.302 And for me, and just go, go, go, go, go the whole time through. 00:02:17.302 --> 00:02:21.164 But it's hard once you've gained all the, like a ton of marketable skills, that it's 00:02:21.164 --> 00:02:23.224 hard to see if it is a tough time or not. 00:02:23.724 --> 00:02:25.864 , if you're constantly working, um, 00:02:26.019 --> 00:02:27.069 CJ: Yeah, that's the thing, right? 00:02:27.069 --> 00:02:31.179 Like I, I mean, so the context is, I haven't not been working. 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:34.522 So, you know, it's hard to say that it's a tough time, but I, I, I'm kind 00:02:34.522 --> 00:02:36.922 of judging by my inbound action, right? 00:02:37.122 --> 00:02:40.352 , how many, , folks do I see show up in my LinkedIn, , inbox like 00:02:40.362 --> 00:02:41.712 day to day or week to week. 00:02:41.712 --> 00:02:46.182 . And that, traffic has definitely slowed and my, presence in the ecosystem 00:02:46.472 --> 00:02:48.492 has probably multiplied, right? 00:02:48.522 --> 00:02:51.099 So, I don't think it's a reflection of me. 00:02:51.529 --> 00:02:51.939 DUKE: Yeah. 00:02:51.939 --> 00:02:55.799 And I would say of the stuff I get in LinkedIn, it's a lot 00:02:56.289 --> 00:02:59.389 less lucrative by the get go. 00:02:59.529 --> 00:03:04.417 I'd say like, I always use the 45 an hour jobs as My temperature gauge. 00:03:04.517 --> 00:03:08.467 So there would be like a couple of times a year, somebody who didn't know would 00:03:08.477 --> 00:03:11.967 be like, Hey, we need to like a brilliant service now, rockstar 45 an hour. 00:03:11.977 --> 00:03:13.207 I'm like, okay, that's funny. 00:03:13.344 --> 00:03:15.124 But it's a lot more often now. 00:03:15.504 --> 00:03:16.494 It's a lot more often. 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:17.749 CJ: I agree. 00:03:17.889 --> 00:03:18.379 I agree. 00:03:18.584 --> 00:03:22.141 DUKE: so whether it's just the market's getting more saturated 00:03:22.141 --> 00:03:25.991 with talent, or it's harder times ahead, I don't know, man. 00:03:25.991 --> 00:03:27.561 Like, there's a lot of stuff going on. 00:03:27.561 --> 00:03:29.711 It's hard to, be an oracle in these times. 00:03:30.041 --> 00:03:34.942 But maybe instead of trying to predict hard times or not, Or dedicate our 00:03:34.942 --> 00:03:37.372 energies to just biting our nails over it. 00:03:37.619 --> 00:03:42.869 why don't we talk about ways that we can hedge against hard times. 00:03:43.739 --> 00:03:44.139 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:44.139 --> 00:03:44.659 Yeah, no doubt. 00:03:44.669 --> 00:03:45.829 How do you weather the storm? 00:03:45.829 --> 00:03:46.319 I love it. 00:03:46.539 --> 00:03:47.219 I'll kick it off. 00:03:47.219 --> 00:03:49.749 Like the first thing I'd say is, is your network, right? 00:03:49.749 --> 00:03:51.889 Like you build your network in the, good times. 00:03:51.899 --> 00:03:53.699 So that it's there for you in the lean times. 00:03:54.022 --> 00:03:55.142 DUKE: How do you build a network? 00:03:55.544 --> 00:03:59.444 CJ: so this one is hard , especially for people in our ecosystem, right? 00:03:59.444 --> 00:04:02.494 Because people in our ecosystem tend to come in a bit more on 00:04:02.494 --> 00:04:04.104 the shy side than most, right? 00:04:04.104 --> 00:04:08.034 Like, when you look at it, but the way that you build a network is by talking to 00:04:08.074 --> 00:04:10.284 people and forming relationships, right? 00:04:10.604 --> 00:04:12.214 You know, like, Hey, how you doing? 00:04:12.214 --> 00:04:13.134 I'm such and such. 00:04:13.144 --> 00:04:14.804 And , what are you doing here? 00:04:15.124 --> 00:04:15.704 You're right. 00:04:15.704 --> 00:04:17.374 Like, you know, how long you been around? 00:04:17.424 --> 00:04:21.164 Tell me about yourself, like all of those kinds of things, they told you, 00:04:21.234 --> 00:04:24.289 as adults, you stop making friends, but, all the same things that you do 00:04:24.289 --> 00:04:28.229 to make friends, you do to build a relationships with folks who create 00:04:28.229 --> 00:04:32.052 your net, your network, and I don't necessarily differentiate between the 00:04:32.052 --> 00:04:35.982 people I know, you know, Who lived down the block for me as a friend or 00:04:35.982 --> 00:04:39.566 the people who I grew up with, who are my friends, versus the people who I've 00:04:39.566 --> 00:04:43.096 just worked with day in and day out in the service now ecosystem and see a 00:04:43.136 --> 00:04:47.346 knowledge once a year, all these people are my, are my, are in my network, right? 00:04:47.346 --> 00:04:51.266 And they're people who I see and I talk to, and I, you know, and I look 00:04:51.266 --> 00:04:54.376 forward to talking to on about, you know, various different things and 00:04:54.376 --> 00:04:55.966 look forward to seeing whenever I do 00:04:57.021 --> 00:05:00.361 DUKE: Yeah, I would say it doesn't happen by accident. 00:05:00.981 --> 00:05:04.951 Um, it must take a mindful time commitment. 00:05:04.961 --> 00:05:09.114 So like, I think in other episodes, I'd say, Hey, listen, this is back when I 00:05:09.134 --> 00:05:12.934 had 13 years experience, not 15, but I'm like, can you imagine how many 00:05:12.934 --> 00:05:14.614 hours you've had dedicated to something? 00:05:14.614 --> 00:05:18.924 If you did 30 minutes a day for every working day for 13 years. 00:05:19.631 --> 00:05:23.481 You're like, you're like basically a year of pure learning ahead 00:05:23.481 --> 00:05:24.991 of anybody else who starts now. 00:05:25.651 --> 00:05:28.891 And so I always say like dedicate some time to it. 00:05:29.431 --> 00:05:32.721 I think people don't, because they don't know explicitly what to do. 00:05:32.961 --> 00:05:35.201 And you said it, talk to people. 00:05:35.896 --> 00:05:40.326 And really seriously talk to them and don't act like you are a burden. 00:05:40.579 --> 00:05:43.319 the one thing I wish people knew when they reached out to me on LinkedIn, 00:05:43.349 --> 00:05:46.019 like, so my policies, whenever somebody reaches out, I always like 00:05:46.139 --> 00:05:47.039 say, Hey, what can I do for you? 00:05:47.249 --> 00:05:49.539 Cause it's a great door opener because maybe there is 00:05:49.539 --> 00:05:50.439 something I can do for them. 00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:53.009 And I build my network by doing something for them. 00:05:53.484 --> 00:05:53.864 CJ: Yeah. 00:05:54.179 --> 00:05:54.549 DUKE: Right. 00:05:55.459 --> 00:05:57.919 or just get to know them a bit. 00:05:57.919 --> 00:05:59.819 I do a little bit of recruiting, so it helps to know people. 00:05:59.889 --> 00:06:00.119 Right. 00:06:00.269 --> 00:06:04.069 but one thing I get constantly back is I just want to have you in my network. 00:06:04.606 --> 00:06:08.246 like, but why, like, so you can roll the dice every day and see if I show up 00:06:08.246 --> 00:06:13.076 on your feed, you know, and, and not, not, I don't say in a morally judgment 00:06:13.076 --> 00:06:16.726 way, like you're bad for that, but I'm just saying it could be so much more. 00:06:16.726 --> 00:06:19.196 Like you just started your ServiceNow journey. 00:06:19.226 --> 00:06:20.306 Do you have any questions? 00:06:21.406 --> 00:06:23.786 CJ: Yeah, it could be so much more, right? 00:06:23.786 --> 00:06:24.666 I love that. 00:06:24.706 --> 00:06:27.349 and just because we're connected on LinkedIn, does 00:06:27.349 --> 00:06:29.109 that mean I'm in your network? 00:06:29.109 --> 00:06:31.969 Does that mean you're, or more importantly, does that mean 00:06:31.969 --> 00:06:33.479 that you're in my network? 00:06:33.539 --> 00:06:37.329 so if you're joining me on LinkedIn, if we're connecting on LinkedIn 00:06:37.329 --> 00:06:40.779 and you're initiating that so that I could be in your network. 00:06:41.214 --> 00:06:44.294 You want me to have you in my network, right? 00:06:44.294 --> 00:06:48.247 Like, like That's what you're looking for really in these situations. 00:06:48.287 --> 00:06:52.827 And, so like, reach out, like say, Hey, CJ, how's it going? 00:06:52.911 --> 00:06:55.861 you know, I, I listened to that one thing you said on a podcast. 00:06:55.861 --> 00:06:58.121 I really liked that thing, or I really hate it. 00:06:58.461 --> 00:07:00.131 You know, the other thing you said, right? 00:07:00.131 --> 00:07:01.551 Like that, you were completely wrong. 00:07:01.571 --> 00:07:03.341 I love it when people tell me I'm wrong. 00:07:03.621 --> 00:07:04.091 Trust me. 00:07:04.167 --> 00:07:05.937 those are interesting conversations. 00:07:06.397 --> 00:07:10.117 And so like, whatever, but just reach out and let's have a conversation. 00:07:10.117 --> 00:07:12.027 Let's talk, let's get to know each other. 00:07:12.027 --> 00:07:13.127 Then I remember. 00:07:13.387 --> 00:07:16.377 And then when I get like a recruiter reaching out to me for 00:07:16.377 --> 00:07:19.457 a thing that I don't do or at a rate that I don't take, right? 00:07:19.457 --> 00:07:21.847 Like I'm thinking, Oh, but I know this other person, right? 00:07:21.857 --> 00:07:24.617 And they've just reached out and I know that they do this thing. 00:07:24.937 --> 00:07:26.967 And from talking to them, I know that they're really good. 00:07:26.967 --> 00:07:26.987 Yeah. 00:07:27.312 --> 00:07:28.622 Let me connect you. 00:07:30.231 --> 00:07:31.761 DUKE: it's simple stuff too. 00:07:31.761 --> 00:07:33.524 So I'm not going to sugarcoat it. 00:07:33.559 --> 00:07:36.537 some people will be like, Hey, I heard this episode of CGA and the Duke. 00:07:36.557 --> 00:07:37.227 I really liked it. 00:07:37.227 --> 00:07:37.927 Love to be in your network. 00:07:37.927 --> 00:07:38.687 Sure, man. 00:07:38.707 --> 00:07:39.877 What, what can I do for you? 00:07:39.877 --> 00:07:41.007 What else can I do for you? 00:07:41.392 --> 00:07:41.732 CJ: Yeah. 00:07:41.732 --> 00:07:42.132 Right. 00:07:42.277 --> 00:07:42.637 DUKE: Right. 00:07:42.737 --> 00:07:45.617 And people don't realize how open that door is. 00:07:45.867 --> 00:07:48.407 If somebody says, what can I do for you? 00:07:48.557 --> 00:07:49.167 think of something. 00:07:49.407 --> 00:07:51.547 Especially if you're new in your career, think of something. 00:07:51.727 --> 00:07:53.597 Like, can you explain this to me? 00:07:54.267 --> 00:07:57.267 Maybe not send me the list of your requirements you have to develop. 00:07:57.277 --> 00:07:58.317 Maybe not that. 00:07:59.217 --> 00:08:04.251 But, really be bold and go ahead and talk about, tell me what your goals are. 00:08:04.251 --> 00:08:05.281 Tell me what you're struggling with. 00:08:05.804 --> 00:08:08.844 and actually, you said it in one of the earlier episodes, Corey. 00:08:09.129 --> 00:08:09.859 What did you say? 00:08:10.239 --> 00:08:14.509 If I've answered something for you, then I have invested in you. 00:08:15.179 --> 00:08:16.289 CJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:08:16.289 --> 00:08:20.129 So, uh, it's a hack, to create a stronger relationship with someone 00:08:20.129 --> 00:08:22.809 that you don't really know, or you're not really close with, right? 00:08:23.059 --> 00:08:25.779 It's that when you ask someone a favor. 00:08:25.844 --> 00:08:28.344 to do your favor and they actually do it. 00:08:28.344 --> 00:08:31.884 They feel closer to you instead of the other way around. 00:08:31.894 --> 00:08:33.964 It's a weird, human psychology thing. 00:08:34.244 --> 00:08:36.294 But like if I say, hey, Duke, you know what? 00:08:36.314 --> 00:08:39.114 I really need you to come through and mow my grass, right? 00:08:39.114 --> 00:08:39.734 Like tomorrow. 00:08:39.734 --> 00:08:40.604 Can you do that for me? 00:08:40.694 --> 00:08:40.904 Yeah. 00:08:40.904 --> 00:08:41.194 Yeah. 00:08:41.194 --> 00:08:42.144 No, no, no problem. 00:08:42.144 --> 00:08:42.394 CJ. 00:08:42.394 --> 00:08:43.054 I'll come through, right? 00:08:43.054 --> 00:08:46.204 Like you come in and you, you cut my grass and you're going to feel like, wow, like 00:08:46.234 --> 00:08:50.084 CJ trusted me enough to come and ask me to do this favor for him to do this thing. 00:08:50.284 --> 00:08:51.804 Like, and then now like, man, I. 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:53.769 Feel a little closer to him, right? 00:08:53.769 --> 00:08:55.389 Like, cause he thought of me, right? 00:08:55.389 --> 00:08:57.489 Like, that's kind of how it works, right? 00:08:57.489 --> 00:08:59.459 And so now that relationship is stronger. 00:08:59.986 --> 00:09:01.576 DUKE: what else can we say for networking? 00:09:01.656 --> 00:09:03.986 , Like, okay, just participate in conversations. 00:09:03.986 --> 00:09:09.216 Remember if I said if you dedicate 30 minutes a day To engaging the ServiceNow 00:09:09.226 --> 00:09:14.756 community, be it LinkedIn, SNDev Slack channel, ServiceNow developer discord, 00:09:14.862 --> 00:09:19.152 the main community site, just spend 30 minutes engaging, , ask further 00:09:19.152 --> 00:09:21.062 questions in a thread that interests you. 00:09:21.202 --> 00:09:24.582 Put in your own idea, if you think you even have even close to an 00:09:24.582 --> 00:09:26.842 answer, even if it's the wrong answer. 00:09:27.099 --> 00:09:29.679 but your name starts showing up in conversations, right? 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:31.749 People start trying to figure out who this person is. 00:09:32.819 --> 00:09:33.529 CJ: Absolutely. 00:09:33.634 --> 00:09:35.824 DUKE: like another thing is just participate in the conversation. 00:09:35.824 --> 00:09:38.934 I know social media is not for everybody, but community can be, 00:09:39.259 --> 00:09:41.442 CJ: Yeah, you know, and I'm going to say something that some 00:09:41.442 --> 00:09:44.192 people are not going to like, I'm going to say this, get over it. 00:09:44.432 --> 00:09:46.552 if social media is not your thing, get over it. 00:09:46.572 --> 00:09:47.292 It's a tool. 00:09:47.482 --> 00:09:48.222 You go to work. 00:09:48.242 --> 00:09:49.352 Work's not your thing. 00:09:49.532 --> 00:09:50.502 You do it anyway. 00:09:52.676 --> 00:09:57.186 Like, you know, no, I mean, but it's like you do, the thing 00:09:57.212 --> 00:09:58.482 that you need to get ahead. 00:09:58.482 --> 00:10:01.482 , and so sometimes that's putting the time in on social media. 00:10:01.862 --> 00:10:03.742 And so do it anyway. 00:10:03.912 --> 00:10:07.462 and if it's a privacy thing, figure out the privacy controls and lock your stuff 00:10:07.472 --> 00:10:09.582 down to a, to a point, not excessively. 00:10:09.582 --> 00:10:09.792 Right. 00:10:09.792 --> 00:10:13.412 Cause still you, the idea here is that you want to be open, but there are 00:10:13.412 --> 00:10:16.812 privacy controls that you can bring to bear that can make the experience 00:10:16.812 --> 00:10:19.222 feel not as vulnerable, right. 00:10:19.222 --> 00:10:25.009 Like as you might, as it might feel that at first glance, so yeah, do it anyway. 00:10:27.174 --> 00:10:27.574 DUKE: All right. 00:10:28.384 --> 00:10:28.704 CJ: Go for 00:10:28.794 --> 00:10:29.104 DUKE: sorry. 00:10:29.234 --> 00:10:31.744 Yeah, I got some of the dovetails into the next point using 00:10:31.794 --> 00:10:32.834 CJ: Yeah, yeah, go for 00:10:32.974 --> 00:10:39.084 DUKE: be certain of your capabilities and make a narrative about it. 00:10:39.244 --> 00:10:40.584 So just coaching somebody. 00:10:41.009 --> 00:10:46.329 Earlier this week, who was like, you know, I got to see the CSA months ago and, 00:10:46.329 --> 00:10:47.639 you know, I haven't got a single bite. 00:10:47.649 --> 00:10:48.639 It's really hard. 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:49.919 Like, we don't know what employers want. 00:10:49.949 --> 00:10:52.059 And it's just like nothing on the LinkedIn profile, 00:10:52.954 --> 00:10:53.254 CJ: Oh, 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:53.609 DUKE: cert. 00:10:54.289 --> 00:10:56.605 And it's just you want to catch fish, right? 00:10:56.755 --> 00:10:57.995 Put a net in the water. 00:10:58.590 --> 00:10:59.010 CJ: Yeah. 00:10:59.025 --> 00:11:02.188 DUKE: Um, and You know, the net can't just be like a single word. 00:11:02.188 --> 00:11:03.228 It can't be like service now. 00:11:03.258 --> 00:11:04.928 Can't be just a flow designer. 00:11:05.698 --> 00:11:07.038 It's got to be caught in a narrative. 00:11:07.068 --> 00:11:11.188 So like something has to get the fish to get interested in that debate. 00:11:11.268 --> 00:11:11.698 Right. 00:11:12.208 --> 00:11:17.058 And so make sure that you have things that you can explain about what you 00:11:17.068 --> 00:11:20.458 did on your resume and or LinkedIn. 00:11:20.518 --> 00:11:23.178 I prefer LinkedIn just because it's got that passive measure. 00:11:23.178 --> 00:11:25.598 It was like people while you're sleeping, people are finding you. 00:11:26.503 --> 00:11:27.643 CJ: Yeah, that right. 00:11:27.643 --> 00:11:30.293 Like, I'll be honest, like LinkedIn is probably my favorite 00:11:30.533 --> 00:11:32.023 social media platform right now. 00:11:32.333 --> 00:11:33.923 It's because it's so relevant. 00:11:33.933 --> 00:11:36.083 Everything that I do there is just so relevant, right? 00:11:36.083 --> 00:11:38.993 Like, all the people there are doing things that I want to talk about 00:11:38.993 --> 00:11:40.248 that I want to hear about, right? 00:11:40.258 --> 00:11:40.428 Right. 00:11:40.438 --> 00:11:44.338 Did I find exciting and, and it's like you said, it's really passive in the 00:11:44.338 --> 00:11:47.398 sense that like, I just got to log in and then boom, LinkedIn is going to 00:11:47.398 --> 00:11:49.268 show me like all of this cool stuff. 00:11:49.788 --> 00:11:50.108 Right. 00:11:50.328 --> 00:11:52.908 And so, yeah, I'm, I'm a hundred percent with you on that. 00:11:52.908 --> 00:11:53.518 I'm there. 00:11:53.953 --> 00:11:58.436 DUKE: you can't let the abstract tokens of the capability, i. 00:11:58.436 --> 00:11:58.626 e. 00:11:58.626 --> 00:11:59.706 the certs, right? 00:11:59.726 --> 00:12:00.726 The certs are important. 00:12:00.726 --> 00:12:03.276 Again, I'm not anti cert, jeepers, creepers, stop. 00:12:05.696 --> 00:12:09.765 Okay, but I'm just saying, like, if you look at 10 LinkedIn profiles and they 00:12:09.765 --> 00:12:11.555 all say CSA, which one do you want? 00:12:11.696 --> 00:12:14.736 and truthfully, if you even gave me one that said CSA, it's like, I still 00:12:14.736 --> 00:12:15.986 don't know what this person can do. 00:12:16.376 --> 00:12:17.136 CJ: Fair enough. 00:12:17.293 --> 00:12:20.703 DUKE: on the LinkedIn profile, you want to see a story of something you did. 00:12:21.065 --> 00:12:21.605 know what I mean? 00:12:21.800 --> 00:12:24.100 CJ: Yeah, intrigue me, right? 00:12:24.100 --> 00:12:24.390 Okay. 00:12:24.390 --> 00:12:29.340 So, so this, this dovetails Duke into, uh, a thing that, that I've said to 00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:33.090 people in the past, when you're trying to get a job, this is almost like Tinder. 00:12:33.370 --> 00:12:33.630 Right? 00:12:33.630 --> 00:12:37.053 Like you're trying to get a date, you know, when you're on an interview, like 00:12:37.053 --> 00:12:39.653 both of you are filling each other out to try to see if you want to take this 00:12:39.663 --> 00:12:41.293 to the next level, like getting a job. 00:12:41.293 --> 00:12:42.473 It's like the same thing, right? 00:12:42.473 --> 00:12:44.663 Like you're going to, you got to put something out there that makes people 00:12:44.663 --> 00:12:48.543 interested in and taking that next step, which is calling you, contacting you or 00:12:48.713 --> 00:12:52.923 swiping whatever way you got to swipe in order to indicate liking somebody. 00:12:52.943 --> 00:12:53.263 Right? 00:12:53.513 --> 00:12:55.213 You know, that's, that's what this is. 00:12:55.213 --> 00:12:56.643 And that's what you're just describing, right? 00:12:56.643 --> 00:13:00.113 Make your profile interesting enough that I won't swipe it. 00:13:00.273 --> 00:13:03.903 Right, left, whatever it is to get to, to get you to respond. 00:13:04.098 --> 00:13:06.608 and I think that's, I think that's incredibly important. 00:13:07.782 --> 00:13:09.472 DUKE: it's true for interviews too. 00:13:09.472 --> 00:13:12.512 So let's just say, like, for whatever reason, you, you don't have 00:13:12.512 --> 00:13:15.772 LinkedIn, you don't have resume, but you're still interviewing. 00:13:15.969 --> 00:13:19.329 how do you think they're going to pick you from other people? 00:13:19.520 --> 00:13:19.900 CJ: Yeah. 00:13:20.155 --> 00:13:24.085 , DUKE: I think essentially employers want a couple abstract things they 00:13:24.085 --> 00:13:29.599 want to know the type and scale of the problems you can solve. 00:13:29.690 --> 00:13:31.770 Without having oversight. 00:13:32.087 --> 00:13:34.637 CJ: I love the way you can always contextualize this stuff, 00:13:34.637 --> 00:13:36.227 Duke, because you're absolutely, 00:13:36.237 --> 00:13:36.707 DUKE: Thanks, bro. 00:13:36.977 --> 00:13:38.037 I mean, it's actually coming from you. 00:13:39.647 --> 00:13:42.177 CJ: now you always put it in this, like this container that makes it 00:13:42.177 --> 00:13:46.174 so easy to understand, the type and scale of the problems you can 00:13:46.174 --> 00:13:47.764 solve without oversight, right? 00:13:47.764 --> 00:13:48.744 Like, that's amazing. 00:13:48.764 --> 00:13:51.147 that's exactly what, what employers are looking for, 00:13:51.550 --> 00:13:51.740 DUKE: Yeah. 00:13:51.740 --> 00:13:53.530 No matter, no matter the technology, right. 00:13:53.530 --> 00:13:55.090 It's just like you'd be doing Salesforce stuff. 00:13:55.090 --> 00:13:56.290 You could be a project manager. 00:13:56.290 --> 00:13:59.037 It's but what have you done and to what scale? 00:13:59.047 --> 00:14:04.084 So if you describe how you built, All these different catalog items and 00:14:04.084 --> 00:14:06.854 you're very being very descriptive your resume and your interview about the 00:14:06.854 --> 00:14:10.344 catalog items You've built maybe that tells me Maybe this person can take 00:14:10.344 --> 00:14:13.594 care of my catalog item backlog like who doesn't have one of those, right? 00:14:13.904 --> 00:14:14.344 CJ: Yeah, 00:14:14.544 --> 00:14:17.637 DUKE: But at least they could just say okay put them here And then they can 00:14:17.637 --> 00:14:21.377 go watch them go and then I can get on with the rest of my life, not managing 00:14:21.377 --> 00:14:25.237 this person, not managing, but not, not having constant oversight on them. 00:14:25.832 --> 00:14:26.302 CJ: Yeah, 00:14:26.417 --> 00:14:29.167 DUKE: But then maybe you say, well, I got, Oh, I had all these, I had 00:14:29.167 --> 00:14:31.627 all these stakeholders and they were really mad about something. 00:14:31.627 --> 00:14:34.357 And I got everybody to agree on something that, you know, they didn't all come 00:14:34.357 --> 00:14:36.037 to the table on, but we all agreed. 00:14:36.037 --> 00:14:37.457 And then it was successful this way. 00:14:37.457 --> 00:14:42.427 And it's like, Oh, well now I can actually put these people in front of some of my 00:14:42.427 --> 00:14:43.927 stakeholders and take some of the heat 00:14:45.202 --> 00:14:46.032 CJ: Absolutely. 00:14:46.197 --> 00:14:48.637 DUKE: There's so many people were kind of like, Well, what can you do? 00:14:48.667 --> 00:14:49.517 What do you want me to do? 00:14:49.872 --> 00:14:50.812 CJ: Yeah. 00:14:51.037 --> 00:14:53.537 DUKE: it's just like, it adds labor to the system. 00:14:54.392 --> 00:14:54.902 CJ: Yeah. 00:14:54.940 --> 00:14:56.220 DUKE: I know where it comes from, right? 00:14:56.270 --> 00:14:57.880 You're trying to facilitate, right? 00:14:57.880 --> 00:15:03.107 You're trying to, , be flexible and receptive or kind of Bruce Lee's 00:15:03.107 --> 00:15:04.487 like, take the shape of the vessel. 00:15:04.487 --> 00:15:08.200 But also just fill in the blanks for them to write, like, fill in the blanks. 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:10.190 I guess that's what I'm trying to say. 00:15:10.535 --> 00:15:11.365 CJ: No, I agree. 00:15:11.415 --> 00:15:13.065 Approach this question differently. 00:15:13.065 --> 00:15:14.825 Not what can I do for you? 00:15:14.892 --> 00:15:16.622 this is what I can do for you. 00:15:17.092 --> 00:15:17.352 Right? 00:15:17.352 --> 00:15:20.702 Let's let's reframe how this question comes out. 00:15:20.702 --> 00:15:21.082 Right? 00:15:21.122 --> 00:15:23.042 From a question actually into a statement. 00:15:23.442 --> 00:15:23.742 Right. 00:15:23.742 --> 00:15:26.332 Like you coming into the room with me and they'll say, Hey, 00:15:26.522 --> 00:15:27.632 what do you need help with? 00:15:27.662 --> 00:15:28.472 Cause I can do it. 00:15:28.522 --> 00:15:33.102 Tell me, Hey, I noticed that X, Y, Z problem. 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:38.669 And this is how I can do that through ABC, boom, all of a sudden now I'm intrigued. 00:15:38.669 --> 00:15:38.829 Right. 00:15:38.829 --> 00:15:40.538 Cause you've saved me a whole lot of labor. 00:15:41.194 --> 00:15:44.044 I didn't have to tell you what the problem is and I didn't 00:15:44.054 --> 00:15:45.074 have to go through any of that. 00:15:45.074 --> 00:15:46.544 Trying to get you to understand you already know. 00:15:46.544 --> 00:15:48.654 And then you're also going to tell me how you're going to solve it. 00:15:48.654 --> 00:15:48.784 Now. 00:15:48.784 --> 00:15:49.823 I just got to think about it. 00:15:50.064 --> 00:15:51.724 Whether or not I think that's a good solution. 00:15:51.734 --> 00:15:54.284 Like, I mean, yeah, yeah. 00:15:54.934 --> 00:15:57.344 DUKE: I was telling my training cohort this, , the other day, , my 00:15:57.344 --> 00:15:58.454 cohort three just started. 00:15:58.764 --> 00:16:02.004 And, there was a lot of questions about, are you going to teach 00:16:02.004 --> 00:16:04.313 us how to, write on LinkedIn? 00:16:04.353 --> 00:16:06.094 Are you going to teach us what keywords to use? 00:16:06.094 --> 00:16:08.134 how do we get into these interviews to begin with? 00:16:08.174 --> 00:16:09.934 And what do we do once we're there? 00:16:09.964 --> 00:16:11.434 There's a lot of curiosity about this. 00:16:11.607 --> 00:16:14.707 Because they're noticing the whole, like, must have two years 00:16:14.827 --> 00:16:16.387 experience that the market is at, 00:16:16.527 --> 00:16:17.237 CJ: right. 00:16:17.352 --> 00:16:21.902 DUKE: And everybody knows my philosophy on that is that it's just an abstract. 00:16:22.122 --> 00:16:25.552 It's because the market is finding too much difficulty finding out what 00:16:25.552 --> 00:16:30.479 capabilities does the CSA actually have, Um, it's important too, right, because 00:16:30.489 --> 00:16:34.819 all the people coming in via RiseUp, if we are going into hard times... 00:16:35.349 --> 00:16:36.679 It's gonna be difficult, right? 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:40.209 So how, how are they going to overcome that kind of narrative challenge when 00:16:40.209 --> 00:16:42.759 it's like, oh, you got to have this two year barrier, but you got to understand 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:46.219 the barriers abstract, they're doing it as a self defense mechanism, because 00:16:46.269 --> 00:16:50.879 they don't want to risk hiring people that really don't have capability. 00:16:51.794 --> 00:16:52.324 That makes sense. 00:16:52.574 --> 00:16:55.804 And so what you have to do is going right back to like, know your 00:16:55.804 --> 00:16:58.974 capabilities is describe a situation. 00:16:58.974 --> 00:17:01.514 So it's like, oh, you want to service now developed with 2 years experience. 00:17:01.784 --> 00:17:05.093 No, maybe I don't have 2 years experience, but here's something I built on my PDI. 00:17:05.554 --> 00:17:07.473 I have a friend who has a soaping business. 00:17:07.824 --> 00:17:10.693 That soaping business requires a ton of raw ingredient management. 00:17:11.114 --> 00:17:13.684 If they pour all the raw ingredients and find out that they were 00:17:13.684 --> 00:17:16.544 short on one of them, they can't, like, put the ingredients back, 00:17:16.544 --> 00:17:19.134 so they've essentially wasted an entire batch worth of ingredients. 00:17:19.644 --> 00:17:23.544 And so, we built them a system on ServiceNow that tracks ingredient usage 00:17:23.544 --> 00:17:28.343 for every batch, and every time you go to plan a batch with a recipe, it double 00:17:28.344 --> 00:17:29.673 checks that you have enough of everything. 00:17:29.674 --> 00:17:32.734 And if it doesn't, it adds all that stuff onto a shopping list. 00:17:33.034 --> 00:17:37.554 And so basically we made the ingredient procurement proactive and 00:17:37.554 --> 00:17:39.354 we completely eliminated batch wastage. 00:17:39.414 --> 00:17:40.944 Is that something you might be interested in? 00:17:40.944 --> 00:17:43.384 Is that kind of app development, the kind of app development that 00:17:43.384 --> 00:17:44.433 would be interesting for your 00:17:44.870 --> 00:17:45.310 CJ: Yes. 00:17:45.610 --> 00:17:45.790 And 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:45.950 DUKE: company? 00:17:46.120 --> 00:17:51.960 CJ: you've done, what you just did there is you took the proxy of, uh, years of 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.900 experience and eliminated that, right? 00:17:54.900 --> 00:17:58.680 Because, and changed it to demonstrated experience. 00:17:59.310 --> 00:17:59.560 DUKE: Yeah. 00:17:59.570 --> 00:18:00.910 This is a yes, no question. 00:18:00.910 --> 00:18:02.660 This is not a how many days question. 00:18:03.020 --> 00:18:03.430 CJ: Right? 00:18:04.984 --> 00:18:07.654 you go into the situation, like you need two years of experience. 00:18:07.654 --> 00:18:08.854 You don't have two years of experience. 00:18:08.863 --> 00:18:09.924 What experience do you have? 00:18:09.924 --> 00:18:10.104 Right? 00:18:10.283 --> 00:18:12.754 Like you have everything that you just mentioned, dude, like all 00:18:12.754 --> 00:18:15.883 of that, like all of that soap making, , app experience, right? 00:18:15.883 --> 00:18:17.853 And how all of that stuff works together. 00:18:17.853 --> 00:18:19.173 That's the experience that you have. 00:18:19.353 --> 00:18:21.183 And so that's the experience that you sell. 00:18:21.913 --> 00:18:22.233 DUKE: yep. 00:18:23.073 --> 00:18:26.253 CJ: And then boom, all of a sudden, because the, the, the two years of 00:18:26.253 --> 00:18:28.013 experience thing is just a proxy, right? 00:18:28.013 --> 00:18:31.223 It's a gate and gates are made to be hopped over. 00:18:32.543 --> 00:18:36.653 DUKE: that's a great segue into another point is you got to keep your tools sharp. 00:18:36.933 --> 00:18:37.753 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:18:38.078 --> 00:18:39.818 DUKE: Ain't no butcher out there with a dull knife going 00:18:39.818 --> 00:18:41.918 to work eight hours a day, know? 00:18:42.193 --> 00:18:44.683 CJ: Plus, have you ever tried to cut something with a dull knife, man? 00:18:44.683 --> 00:18:45.613 That's dangerous. 00:18:45.948 --> 00:18:47.138 DUKE: Yeah, didn't they say that? 00:18:47.138 --> 00:18:49.008 Like the most dangerous knife is a dull knife? 00:18:49.253 --> 00:18:49.663 CJ: Yep. 00:18:49.935 --> 00:18:54.625 DUKE: I even feel this in my own world, sometimes , I get into contracts and I 00:18:54.635 --> 00:18:59.072 have a luxury of doing a type of work that I want, that isn't necessarily, 00:18:59.072 --> 00:19:00.932 like, right in the trenches of execution. 00:19:01.797 --> 00:19:02.237 CJ: Right. 00:19:02.512 --> 00:19:02.942 DUKE: what I mean? 00:19:02.942 --> 00:19:07.512 So I'll be doing some architecture or some, or some marketing or some recruiting 00:19:07.532 --> 00:19:10.242 or something like I'm just, I just have the luxury of doing something different. 00:19:10.455 --> 00:19:12.955 but then I'll come back after a little bit and I'll be like, I haven't 00:19:12.975 --> 00:19:15.745 looked at CMDB in like X years. 00:19:15.955 --> 00:19:18.555 I haven't looked at change control in ages. 00:19:18.605 --> 00:19:22.105 And so again, you have to dedicate, especially in, in 00:19:22.105 --> 00:19:23.565 preparation for the hard times. 00:19:23.645 --> 00:19:26.895 It's maybe you got to dedicate a little bit of time every week to 00:19:26.895 --> 00:19:29.855 just taking something you don't use all the time and use it. 00:19:30.187 --> 00:19:30.567 CJ: Yep. 00:19:30.987 --> 00:19:31.267 Yep. 00:19:31.397 --> 00:19:35.380 DUKE: those tools sharp and then if you're not very experienced yet Then 00:19:35.410 --> 00:19:38.670 keeping your tool sharp means getting them sharp in the first place and 00:19:38.670 --> 00:19:42.290 building on your PDI And if you want we'll drop like five or six or seven 00:19:42.290 --> 00:19:44.464 different episodes into the description 00:19:48.264 --> 00:19:50.644 CJ: About what and why you should build. 00:19:50.714 --> 00:19:53.994 DUKE: Yeah building on your PDI there's just no way around 00:19:54.004 --> 00:19:55.194 build build build build build 00:19:55.560 --> 00:19:56.170 CJ: you're right. 00:19:56.170 --> 00:20:00.390 It, it permeates like literally every single conversation that I have with 00:20:00.390 --> 00:20:02.350 folks who are just joining the ecosystem. 00:20:02.350 --> 00:20:03.210 It's like build. 00:20:03.335 --> 00:20:04.475 You've learned the book knowledge. 00:20:04.475 --> 00:20:06.675 You've read all the things, right? 00:20:06.675 --> 00:20:11.535 Like, you took the test, ? But if you haven't put your hands on it and made 00:20:11.535 --> 00:20:16.135 the stuff, at that point, I mean, yeah, like you, because that's what the job is. 00:20:16.445 --> 00:20:19.875 The job is putting your hands on it and actually making the stuff. 00:20:20.735 --> 00:20:24.924 So, you got to build, you got to get in there and look and the best 00:20:24.924 --> 00:20:26.504 place to do is in your PDI, right? 00:20:26.504 --> 00:20:29.364 Because you're going to mess up, you can always refresh that 00:20:29.364 --> 00:20:30.804 thing to start over, right? 00:20:30.844 --> 00:20:33.964 Like, you know, and yeah, 00:20:34.624 --> 00:20:38.724 DUKE: And we've said it 100 times to if building the apps isn't your thing, maybe 00:20:38.784 --> 00:20:45.347 more of like a process person or a BA, still work in your PDI, Take a process, 00:20:45.377 --> 00:20:47.157 maybe even a process implementer, right? 00:20:47.234 --> 00:20:50.034 take one of those processes, completely deconstruct it, figure 00:20:50.034 --> 00:20:52.974 out exactly how it works for each role and build a playbook out of it. 00:20:53.464 --> 00:20:56.346 There's just no excuse, whether you're a builder or a non builder, Yeah. 00:20:56.346 --> 00:20:56.388 Yeah. 00:20:56.549 --> 00:21:00.649 You can still be keeping your tools real sharp by operating in your PDI. 00:21:01.267 --> 00:21:03.640 CJ: I totally agree, , there's no substitute for building it. 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:08.320 No matter what type of career you're pursuing in service now, right? 00:21:08.320 --> 00:21:11.750 Because you're, you're, this is the, the ecosystem, the ecosystem is the 00:21:11.750 --> 00:21:15.382 platform, So you can't no matter what you're doing in this thing, like 00:21:15.382 --> 00:21:18.812 having that hands on experience in the actual platform, like it's just 00:21:18.812 --> 00:21:20.322 going to, it's going to separate you. 00:21:20.482 --> 00:21:21.392 It's going to elevate you. 00:21:21.392 --> 00:21:21.572 Right. 00:21:21.572 --> 00:21:23.172 It's going to make everything easier for you. 00:21:23.429 --> 00:21:26.569 DUKE: There is an idea I'm really struggling to get my words around. 00:21:26.819 --> 00:21:28.829 I feel like it's a, it's a proto rant. 00:21:29.389 --> 00:21:29.789 CJ: All right. 00:21:29.789 --> 00:21:30.529 All right. 00:21:30.579 --> 00:21:32.539 DUKE: so help me out with this one, Corey. 00:21:32.872 --> 00:21:35.702 everybody's like, Oh, you got a niche down niches or reaches. 00:21:35.832 --> 00:21:39.062 And like, that's how you defend against bad times has become, you 00:21:39.062 --> 00:21:40.502 become super niched in something. 00:21:40.512 --> 00:21:40.852 Right. 00:21:41.772 --> 00:21:43.262 But I'm dealing with a lot of. 00:21:44.772 --> 00:21:48.262 And some of them are blessed to work for a company that has put them on a track 00:21:48.262 --> 00:21:52.602 to become a ServiceNow person, but the company is pushing them way too wide. 00:21:52.945 --> 00:21:56.049 okay, get the ServiceNow funnels, but also get the ITAM and the ITAM 00:21:56.049 --> 00:21:58.389 and this and that, take these micro certifications that are trying to 00:21:58.399 --> 00:22:00.489 micromanage, but micromanage wide. 00:22:01.259 --> 00:22:01.839 CJ: Right. 00:22:01.842 --> 00:22:05.972 DUKE: And I think there's just no use trying to niche down unless 00:22:05.972 --> 00:22:07.502 you have some of the fundamentals. 00:22:07.502 --> 00:22:11.012 So I'm trying to find a way to articulate. 00:22:11.382 --> 00:22:17.092 The balance point that says up until this point don't worry about anything 00:22:17.092 --> 00:22:20.942 else but the fundamentals Like, get your business rules, your client scripts, 00:22:20.942 --> 00:22:24.899 your UI policies, your flow designer, your catalog stuff, table building, 00:22:25.089 --> 00:22:29.769 your data structure, worry about that and only that for the time being, no 00:22:29.769 --> 00:22:33.589 matter what anybody else says, because that's all you have time for if you're 00:22:33.619 --> 00:22:37.689 also working a full time job and have a family, you know, if you're a grown up, 00:22:38.234 --> 00:22:39.347 CJ: Yeah, Duke. 00:22:39.347 --> 00:22:42.097 I get where you're at on this one, there's no substitute for knowing 00:22:42.097 --> 00:22:45.737 the platform, because everything is built on top of the platform. 00:22:45.737 --> 00:22:48.927 And so, as long as you know, the platform, you can learn the other things. 00:22:48.927 --> 00:22:52.717 The other things are hesitate to say industry specific knowledge 00:22:52.737 --> 00:22:55.687 layered on top of service down, but it kind of is kind of isn't 00:22:55.929 --> 00:22:58.939 DUKE: for a few things, definitely, some of them are process things and 00:22:58.939 --> 00:23:01.949 some of them are tech things, but they're not cost free specializations. 00:23:02.594 --> 00:23:03.274 CJ: Exactly. 00:23:03.347 --> 00:23:04.397 they're not cost free. 00:23:04.657 --> 00:23:08.287 And they're also not just something that you can pluck out of the sky either. 00:23:08.357 --> 00:23:11.607 , if you have been in the asset management space, right. 00:23:11.607 --> 00:23:15.417 Before you got into service now and your employer is saying, well, we need you to 00:23:15.417 --> 00:23:19.167 really, really niche down on like a GRC. 00:23:19.167 --> 00:23:21.637 And it's kind of like, why would I do that? 00:23:21.637 --> 00:23:21.702 Yeah. 00:23:21.932 --> 00:23:24.512 When there's like hardware asset management, software 00:23:24.512 --> 00:23:26.612 asset management, CMDB, right? 00:23:26.632 --> 00:23:28.252 Like all of those things are related, right? 00:23:28.252 --> 00:23:31.532 Like if I'm going to niche down, I'm going to niche down on that broad niche because 00:23:31.532 --> 00:23:33.642 it aligns with my previous experience, 00:23:33.842 --> 00:23:34.832 DUKE: Aligned with your previous. 00:23:34.862 --> 00:23:35.262 Yep. 00:23:35.832 --> 00:23:38.919 CJ: I'm not going to niche down on something completely new, And 00:23:38.919 --> 00:23:41.569 then I, that I have no idea, you know, what it's about, but even 00:23:41.569 --> 00:23:43.449 before I get to niching down there. 00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:47.389 I'm going to make sure that I understand how the platform works because at 00:23:47.389 --> 00:23:50.839 the end of the day, all of these vertical applications are still built 00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:52.459 on top of the ServiceNow platform. 00:23:52.869 --> 00:23:53.139 DUKE: Yep. 00:23:53.589 --> 00:23:56.499 CJ: And ServiceNow used to have a really cool diagram, and I don't know 00:23:56.499 --> 00:23:59.499 if they still use it or not, but, uh, it showed like the various, like 00:23:59.504 --> 00:24:01.995 you said earlier in, in, the show here, duke, it showed like the, the 00:24:01.995 --> 00:24:04.335 various layers of the onion and how. 00:24:04.570 --> 00:24:07.760 All of these things are built on the platform, right? 00:24:07.760 --> 00:24:12.690 And the nugget upon which everything else , extends from is the platform, right? 00:24:12.730 --> 00:24:15.517 So knowing all of that stuff when you get to the table, right? 00:24:15.517 --> 00:24:18.227 Like that's the level of generalization that you absolutely 00:24:18.227 --> 00:24:21.727 need to have before you can start thinking about any kind of niche, 00:24:22.507 --> 00:24:24.537 DUKE: I have a pretty good niche in SPM. 00:24:24.652 --> 00:24:27.832 By the way, the best person at SPM in the entire world is Etta Wilson. 00:24:28.092 --> 00:24:29.232 I'll drop a link for her 00:24:29.572 --> 00:24:29.772 CJ: Yeah. 00:24:29.772 --> 00:24:30.012 She's 00:24:30.302 --> 00:24:31.372 DUKE: Yeah, she's super good. 00:24:31.722 --> 00:24:36.638 but, I would say , my journey into that was borderline miraculous. 00:24:36.975 --> 00:24:40.145 I did not enjoy project management, learning it in school. 00:24:40.455 --> 00:24:44.935 , I hadn't had great experiences working with PMOs and, you know, 00:24:44.935 --> 00:24:47.195 it's just a miracle that the customer was just like, no, you 00:24:47.195 --> 00:24:48.995 know, way too much about service now. 00:24:49.615 --> 00:24:52.135 . You must do this for us and we'll teach you the PMO stuff. 00:24:52.135 --> 00:24:53.005 Where the hell was I going with this? 00:24:53.385 --> 00:24:53.875 Ah, yes. 00:24:54.195 --> 00:24:54.435 Okay. 00:24:54.435 --> 00:24:57.292 So I get a customer that's basically like, it's too bad. 00:24:57.302 --> 00:24:59.292 You're going to have to take this job and we're going to 00:24:59.292 --> 00:25:00.712 teach you the PMO process stuff. 00:25:00.712 --> 00:25:02.698 And you're just going to make sure that, the ServiceNow stuff 00:25:02.698 --> 00:25:04.888 is on point, but I swear, man. 00:25:05.188 --> 00:25:09.422 If I hadn't had years of tearing apart the ServiceNow platform, I 00:25:09.422 --> 00:25:11.072 would not have survived that ordeal. 00:25:11.662 --> 00:25:13.782 Because, you've discovered this recently, like you're just trying 00:25:13.782 --> 00:25:19.202 to figure out what in the heck makes resource plans work, you know? 00:25:19.922 --> 00:25:24.002 And you got, you got a resource plan and oh, a cost plans popped up over here. 00:25:24.012 --> 00:25:26.542 And then somebody submitted a time card on a project task. 00:25:26.542 --> 00:25:29.642 And it's like the resource plan actualized, but the cost plan didn't. 00:25:30.062 --> 00:25:32.172 And what the heck's up with that? 00:25:33.932 --> 00:25:36.852 And it's just like, you're not going to find out until you go dumpster 00:25:36.852 --> 00:25:37.962 diving through a scripting loop. 00:25:38.425 --> 00:25:42.265 CJ: And how do you know where, what a script include is and where to go 00:25:42.265 --> 00:25:43.865 looking for it and how it's related. 00:25:43.865 --> 00:25:44.185 Right. 00:25:44.735 --> 00:25:45.205 DUKE: Yeah. 00:25:45.255 --> 00:25:45.285 Yep. 00:25:45.915 --> 00:25:47.125 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:25:47.125 --> 00:25:50.245 So when I was going dumpster diving, like you said, through 00:25:50.245 --> 00:25:51.535 the entirety of the service. 00:25:51.535 --> 00:25:54.815 Now, uh, instance in this case to try to figure out what was going on in this 00:25:54.845 --> 00:25:58.978 thing, All of my platform is what I leaned on in order to figure it out. 00:25:59.443 --> 00:25:59.703 Right. 00:25:59.703 --> 00:26:01.953 It wasn't any specific SPM knowledge. 00:26:01.963 --> 00:26:04.243 It was like, okay, I know how business rules work at work. 00:26:04.243 --> 00:26:05.423 I know how script includes work. 00:26:05.663 --> 00:26:09.393 I know where you can call certain things to get certain behaviors 00:26:09.393 --> 00:26:10.523 from and where you can't. 00:26:10.523 --> 00:26:10.603 Right. 00:26:10.663 --> 00:26:13.613 I don't need to look at a data policy on this because that's not, 00:26:13.657 --> 00:26:14.827 the experience that I'm seeing. 00:26:14.827 --> 00:26:14.977 Right. 00:26:15.107 --> 00:26:17.476 So all of this kind of stuff allows me to kind of really. 00:26:17.957 --> 00:26:22.497 Dive in and troubleshoot and get to the point of figuring out like why 00:26:22.497 --> 00:26:27.987 resource plans aren't working in this particular instance and without knowing 00:26:27.987 --> 00:26:30.067 SPM because I'm not an SPM person. 00:26:30.787 --> 00:26:33.517 You know, and I figured it out, got to the end of it, got it resolved, 00:26:33.517 --> 00:26:36.637 fixed it up, client's happy, everybody's good, but yeah, I don't 00:26:36.637 --> 00:26:38.917 know SPM, but I know the platform. 00:26:39.303 --> 00:26:42.340 DUKE: maybe with the last few minutes, we keep getting asked to do more content 00:26:42.340 --> 00:26:44.157 for independent, ServiceNow resources. 00:26:44.347 --> 00:26:47.487 So maybe we can throw a spin on this purely for the indies. 00:26:47.507 --> 00:26:51.720 What should we do if we feel like harder times are coming? 00:26:51.832 --> 00:26:55.242 CJ: Yeah, this one's for the Indies out there only for the Indies out there. 00:26:57.912 --> 00:26:59.942 If you feel like the hard times are coming, there's a 00:26:59.942 --> 00:27:01.012 few things you could do, right? 00:27:01.012 --> 00:27:03.142 Like, one of those things is be proactive, right? 00:27:03.162 --> 00:27:04.645 Reach out to all your, contacts. 00:27:04.932 --> 00:27:08.532 say I'm coming up on the end of a contract this month, right? 00:27:08.532 --> 00:27:10.202 And you're like, I don't know where my next one is. 00:27:10.202 --> 00:27:11.582 start reaching out to your network. 00:27:11.582 --> 00:27:12.232 Say, Hey. 00:27:12.262 --> 00:27:13.312 I'm coming up available. 00:27:13.312 --> 00:27:15.562 I know you guys have reached out to me in the past about some work. 00:27:15.562 --> 00:27:17.002 Just want to see if that's still on the table. 00:27:17.282 --> 00:27:17.632 Right? 00:27:17.822 --> 00:27:20.562 You know, if you guys need any help with anything, I know sometimes, 00:27:20.562 --> 00:27:22.525 you know, I just 1st crack at me. 00:27:22.525 --> 00:27:24.365 Cause you want to make yourself sound desirable too. 00:27:24.375 --> 00:27:24.915 It's like, Hey. 00:27:25.220 --> 00:27:28.050 Just reach out, you know, we've always wanted to do work in the past is the one 00:27:28.050 --> 00:27:31.400 that lets, you know, I said, the next time that I'm coming available, I reach 00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:34.960 out to you all and let you know, just in case you have something Things like that. 00:27:34.980 --> 00:27:36.200 you can shake the tree that way. 00:27:36.430 --> 00:27:38.310 And honestly, I'll be honest with you. 00:27:38.510 --> 00:27:41.600 You should probably be doing that with your network anyway, not necessarily 00:27:41.600 --> 00:27:45.380 asking around if they need you, but just reaching out to say, Hey, is 00:27:45.380 --> 00:27:46.830 there anything I can do for you guys? 00:27:46.830 --> 00:27:47.100 Right? 00:27:47.100 --> 00:27:49.180 Like, is there anything I could do for you all right. 00:27:49.180 --> 00:27:50.810 Like on this or that or whatever. 00:27:50.810 --> 00:27:50.840 Yeah. 00:27:51.140 --> 00:27:55.460 So, yeah, keep it in touch and make yourself top of mind is 00:27:55.460 --> 00:27:57.060 what is how I'd, condense that 00:27:57.775 --> 00:28:01.565 DUKE: Yeah, I would just say that there's only two ways to make money as an indie 00:28:02.450 --> 00:28:02.970 CJ: Oh, 00:28:03.325 --> 00:28:08.278 DUKE: is that you sell yourself direct to customer, or you 00:28:08.278 --> 00:28:10.148 have a network of alliances. 00:28:10.938 --> 00:28:13.945 that you wear their t shirt for, there's really no other way of that. 00:28:13.955 --> 00:28:18.122 So, especially for those of you who are thinking about going indie versus are 00:28:18.122 --> 00:28:22.328 already indie, this is, I think the one thing that everybody underestimates is 00:28:22.348 --> 00:28:26.258 that your ability to execute is probably the easier part of the whole operation. 00:28:26.815 --> 00:28:29.795 The forming of alliances, the grooming of alliances. 00:28:30.093 --> 00:28:33.403 The keeping that stuff up to date, the selling of yourself 00:28:33.403 --> 00:28:34.983 to, into the, into the ecosystem. 00:28:34.993 --> 00:28:36.053 That's the hard part. 00:28:36.485 --> 00:28:40.555 CJ: yeah, but the building of that, of that reputation where folks will 00:28:40.885 --> 00:28:44.585 call you and when they've got the problem, the funny thing is, is SPM 00:28:44.595 --> 00:28:48.775 problem we were talking about, I solved it for a guy who I'm his 1st call. 00:28:49.305 --> 00:28:49.575 Right. 00:28:49.615 --> 00:28:52.848 Like, like when he, whenever he's in the thing, right. 00:28:52.878 --> 00:28:56.108 Like he's like, I know Corey's not going to let me down, never let him down. 00:28:56.148 --> 00:28:56.378 Right. 00:28:56.378 --> 00:28:57.008 Like I'm his guy. 00:28:58.438 --> 00:28:58.718 Right. 00:28:58.718 --> 00:29:02.058 And if it ever got to the point where it backs up against the wall, 00:29:02.068 --> 00:29:05.248 really needs some work, I can dial them, He'll figure it out for me. 00:29:05.450 --> 00:29:06.390 Cause that's how you roll. 00:29:06.660 --> 00:29:10.080 DUKE: it's almost like the Indies have to take everything that we've 00:29:10.080 --> 00:29:14.760 set up to this point so far and like, multiply it, it's like more intensity. 00:29:14.800 --> 00:29:17.220 you have to have exercised more intense network building. 00:29:17.230 --> 00:29:19.980 You have to have exercised more intense. 00:29:20.360 --> 00:29:21.320 tool sharpening. 00:29:21.460 --> 00:29:25.260 You have to have been past all the fundamentals and decided 00:29:25.260 --> 00:29:27.040 on a niche and niche down. 00:29:27.243 --> 00:29:29.833 a lot of Indies I know are just like, they have no problem 00:29:29.833 --> 00:29:32.763 whatsoever, but they've already put in the work on those other things. 00:29:32.763 --> 00:29:33.043 Right. 00:29:33.783 --> 00:29:34.123 CJ: yeah. 00:29:34.123 --> 00:29:36.940 I mean, because you have to operate your career as if, it's 00:29:36.940 --> 00:29:39.010 a business because it is right. 00:29:39.317 --> 00:29:40.787 you've got to be key at sales. 00:29:40.787 --> 00:29:42.347 You got to be key at marketing, right? 00:29:42.347 --> 00:29:44.497 Like you got to be key at reputation building. 00:29:44.497 --> 00:29:48.033 You got to be key at execution, you've got to be key at all of those things 00:29:48.033 --> 00:29:50.653 and all those things all the time through everything that you're doing 00:29:51.048 --> 00:29:52.978 that's the indie experience right there. 00:29:52.978 --> 00:29:56.238 So if you're not willing to do all of that stuff, man, you, you should check out. 00:29:57.393 --> 00:29:57.793 DUKE: Yeah. 00:29:57.878 --> 00:30:00.348 CJ: a, there's a lot of gigs in, in the ServiceNow ecosystem. 00:30:00.348 --> 00:30:01.188 Good gigs, right. 00:30:01.188 --> 00:30:02.888 That don't require you to do all of this work. 00:30:03.398 --> 00:30:03.678 Right. 00:30:03.678 --> 00:30:06.042 But you don't really get all the freedom that goes along 00:30:06.042 --> 00:30:06.982 with being an indie either. 00:30:06.982 --> 00:30:09.026 So I mean, it's off to all of it. 00:30:09.583 --> 00:30:13.260 Ultimately, if you are here and this is what you want to do, and this 00:30:13.270 --> 00:30:15.780 is what you love to do, then you need to be doing all that stuff. 00:30:15.810 --> 00:30:18.340 like you said, do times two times 10 even 00:30:18.545 --> 00:30:19.365 DUKE: the unfortunate thing. 00:30:19.365 --> 00:30:20.605 It's not an eight hour day, right? 00:30:21.415 --> 00:30:23.645 It comes out to, uh, it comes out to more than that. 00:30:24.125 --> 00:30:24.585 So 00:30:24.843 --> 00:30:26.983 CJ: that's the point, that's what we get up for. 00:30:27.223 --> 00:30:28.273 It's not an eight hour day. 00:30:28.608 --> 00:30:31.988 Put investment in and we reap the huge rewards out of it. 00:30:31.988 --> 00:30:34.748 I mean, it's outside rewards, I think, for, for the amount of 00:30:34.758 --> 00:30:36.638 effort that's put in tippy, right? 00:30:36.958 --> 00:30:39.738 Uh, as long as, yeah, as long as you're good at it, right. 00:30:39.738 --> 00:30:43.778 As long as you will commit the effort to be good at it, 00:30:43.998 --> 00:30:45.308 I should rephrase that, right? 00:30:45.518 --> 00:30:46.913 Because not every, no one's born. 00:30:47.103 --> 00:30:48.293 I'm good at this stuff, right? 00:30:48.293 --> 00:30:50.313 Like everyone had to put in an effort to get here, 00:30:50.598 --> 00:30:50.878 DUKE: All right. 00:30:50.878 --> 00:30:52.738 We're, uh, 36 minutes in. 00:30:53.343 --> 00:30:53.793 CJ: man, dude. 00:30:53.873 --> 00:30:56.703 Like we, once again, right? 00:30:56.703 --> 00:30:58.603 Like we didn't know what we're going to talk about and here we 00:30:58.603 --> 00:31:00.383 are 36 minutes in, that's crazy. 00:31:00.598 --> 00:31:00.878 DUKE: Yeah. 00:31:00.878 --> 00:31:02.528 And we're getting close to episode 100. 00:31:02.538 --> 00:31:02.968 Aren't we? 00:31:03.403 --> 00:31:03.633 CJ: Yeah. 00:31:03.633 --> 00:31:05.113 We got to figure out something good for that. 00:31:05.373 --> 00:31:05.753 Yo. 00:31:05.790 --> 00:31:09.060 if you're listening out there, what we want to know is what do 00:31:09.060 --> 00:31:11.720 you think episode 100 should be? 00:31:12.277 --> 00:31:12.517 That's 00:31:13.307 --> 00:31:13.827 DUKE: let's blow it 00:31:13.937 --> 00:31:14.817 CJ: up on LinkedIn, 00:31:14.887 --> 00:31:16.697 DUKE: we want it to be the best episode ever. 00:31:16.723 --> 00:31:18.903 and we're at episode, this is episode 95. 00:31:19.133 --> 00:31:20.903 Y'all got like five weeks to do this. 00:31:20.923 --> 00:31:21.543 Come on. 00:31:21.933 --> 00:31:22.533 CJ: right? 00:31:23.583 --> 00:31:24.603 Episode 100. 00:31:24.633 --> 00:31:25.283 Let's hear it. 00:31:25.553 --> 00:31:26.213 Let's hear it. 00:31:26.613 --> 00:31:26.793 DUKE: All right. 00:31:26.793 --> 00:31:27.603 Thanks everybody for listening. 00:31:27.603 --> 00:31:28.243 We'll see you on the next one. 00:31:28.593 --> 00:31:29.023 CJ: We out.