{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":5.84,"endTime":9.98,"body":"Welcome back to Demystifying Instructional Design podcast, where I interview"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":10.0,"endTime":14.3,"body":"various instructional designers to figure out what instructional designers do."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":14.81,"endTime":16.91,"body":"I'm Rebecca Hogue, your podcast host."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":17.87,"endTime":20.31,"body":"This episode contains the final part of my interview with"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":20.31,"endTime":23.33,"body":"Lance Eaton, where he talks about what he's looking for"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":23.33,"endTime":25.31,"body":"when hiring instructional designers."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":26.6,"endTime":29.0,"body":"And I'm going to pivot our conversation a little bit,"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":29.0,"endTime":32.24,"body":"because you mentioned you've had experience as a hiring manager"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":32.24,"endTime":34.97,"body":"for instructional designers and so what do you look for"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":35.12,"endTime":37.43,"body":"when you're hiring an instructional designer?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":37.46,"endTime":38.87,"body":"It depends on the job."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":39.2,"endTime":42.32,"body":"So going back to that earlier conversation of Am I"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":42.32,"endTime":45.75,"body":"looking for a course designer? Somebody who is a course"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":45.77,"endTime":46.37,"body":"developer?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":46.7,"endTime":48.32,"body":"Am I looking for a project manager or am I"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":48.32,"endTime":49.7,"body":"looking for a faculty coach?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":50.12,"endTime":53.42,"body":"It will vary on that because I think there's slightly"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":53.42,"endTime":58.09,"body":"different skills within each of those with the course creator"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":58.1,"endTime":60.86,"body":"I'm looking for, either in the interview or in the"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":60.86,"endTime":65.9,"body":"work, like somebody who is either comfortable or enjoys or"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":65.9,"endTime":69.47,"body":"finds value in repetitive tasks."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":70.28,"endTime":72.86,"body":"They're not mindless by any means, but there is a"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":72.86,"endTime":73.52,"body":"repetition."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":73.52,"endTime":75.71,"body":"There is a 'this is how this process is going"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":75.71,"endTime":77.54,"body":"to go', even though it doesn't always go like that."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":77.58,"endTime":79.01,"body":"This is how this process is going to go."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":79.01,"endTime":81.98,"body":"You're going to continually be plugging these things in, and"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":81.98,"endTime":84.62,"body":"there may be other opportunities to expand beyond that."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":84.62,"endTime":87.98,"body":"But I will be looking for somebody that is comfortable"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":87.98,"endTime":91.01,"body":"with that and isn't going to be bored by that"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":91.01,"endTime":93.65,"body":"or find that to be less than interesting."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":93.65,"endTime":95.42,"body":"And that may pop up in a variety of ways"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":95.42,"endTime":98.18,"body":"on their resume from I think sometimes we see some"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":98.18,"endTime":102.77,"body":"of that with people who are in multimedia or people"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":102.77,"endTime":103.82,"body":"who do film."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":104.15,"endTime":106.37,"body":"These aren't the only examples, but these are the examples"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":106.37,"endTime":107.12,"body":"I'm calling to mind."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":107.12,"endTime":111.17,"body":"If you are producing film like there's production, post-production and"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":111.56,"endTime":114.5,"body":"there's a very similar dynamic to course design."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":114.5,"endTime":118.55,"body":"And so look for those type of signals of they"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":118.7,"endTime":122.21,"body":"do this and they're comfortable with doing this kind of"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":122.3,"endTime":123.29,"body":"repetitive work."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":123.77,"endTime":126.92,"body":"If it's a project manager, I'm interested in hearing from"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":127.1,"endTime":129.729,"body":"What are the types of projects that they have done"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":129.74,"endTime":132.32,"body":"and really looking for?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":132.56,"endTime":135.53,"body":"And again, depending on the institution and knowing that there"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":135.53,"endTime":138.77,"body":"are different types of courses looking for somebody who has"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":138.77,"endTime":142.76,"body":"some kind of project development experience, it doesn't have to"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":142.76,"endTime":146.03,"body":"be formal project manager or anything like that, but has"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":146.03,"endTime":149.33,"body":"worked with certain things from beginning to end, but has"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":149.33,"endTime":151.85,"body":"also been able to do it in different modalities because"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":151.85,"endTime":156.16,"body":"depending on the institution, they are going to end up"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":156.29,"endTime":158.84,"body":"working on several different types of projects at a"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":158.84,"endTime":159.5,"body":"given time."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":160.66,"endTime":163.45,"body":"And the faculty coach type person, I'm often looking for"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":163.45,"endTime":167.95,"body":"somebody who is really thinking about that relationship based dynamic,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":168.22,"endTime":171.43,"body":"is demonstrating that when they're coming to do their presentation,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":171.43,"endTime":173.92,"body":"are they just showing the actual or are they really"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":173.92,"endTime":176.32,"body":"trying to think about who is the person, who are"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":176.32,"endTime":177.31,"body":"the people in the room?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":177.31,"endTime":179.98,"body":"And how do I make them feel comfortable about whatever"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":179.98,"endTime":183.22,"body":"it is that whatever it is that they're covering. On"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":183.22,"endTime":185.6,"body":"the project manager, I was also going to mention."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":185.62,"endTime":188.41,"body":"And actually, t's true, even with the faculty"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":188.41,"endTime":194.08,"body":"coaches, how evidence of working with people who may be"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":194.08,"endTime":199.3,"body":"resistant and how they work with them, how they bring"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":199.3,"endTime":202.75,"body":"them along and not push them along."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":203.08,"endTime":205.33,"body":"It's harder to demonstrate, but I think you can still"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":205.33,"endTime":208.63,"body":"get at it in conversation of asking for experiences of how"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":208.63,"endTime":211.54,"body":"they are by the person and not in front of"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":211.54,"endTime":212.65,"body":"or dragging the person."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":213.46,"endTime":216.28,"body":"What can a new instructional designer do to stand out?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":216.79,"endTime":218.53,"body":"That is a good question, I think."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":218.89,"endTime":221.02,"body":"So one of your first questions is what's your origin"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":221.02,"endTime":221.6,"body":"story?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":221.62,"endTime":226.36,"body":"And I think having a strong, clear narrative because we"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":226.36,"endTime":229.78,"body":"all fall into this again, nobody sets out to be"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":229.78,"endTime":230.95,"body":"an instructional designer."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":230.95,"endTime":237.52,"body":"So can you identify a very clear line between your"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":237.52,"endTime":241.87,"body":"work history, your passions and why you want to do"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":241.87,"endTime":245.65,"body":"this particular role at this particular institute around instructional design?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":245.74,"endTime":248.92,"body":"I think really giving time to think about that narrative,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":248.92,"endTime":252.43,"body":"one story and how their work contributes to it."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":252.55,"endTime":254.92,"body":"I think a lot about it, as I wrote on"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":254.92,"endTime":257.5,"body":"my blog a while back, called the castle in the"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":257.5,"endTime":258.16,"body":"tapestry."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":259.0,"endTime":261.43,"body":"And the way that I talk about it is we"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":261.43,"endTime":264.82,"body":"are very much in our society driven towards the hustle."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":264.83,"endTime":267.4,"body":"Do whatever you can as much as you can, because"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":268.06,"endTime":271.33,"body":"late stage capitalism, everything feels like it's, we're losing everything"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":271.87,"endTime":272.89,"body":"and that's the pandemic."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":272.89,"endTime":274.45,"body":"And all of that has just made it feel like"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":274.54,"endTime":275.95,"body":"everything that we have is so elusive."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":275.95,"endTime":280.48,"body":"So we've got to accumulate everything, experiences, background, et cetera,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":280.81,"endTime":281.35,"body":"all of that."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":281.5,"endTime":285.7,"body":"But I think about these things as a tapestry and"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":286.12,"endTime":289.51,"body":"really being able to look at everything I've done and"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":289.51,"endTime":292.81,"body":"how do I weave it into what my story is?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":292.93,"endTime":294.64,"body":"How does it all makes sense?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":294.65,"endTime":297.61,"body":"How does the fact that I am in a doctoral"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":297.61,"endTime":300.7,"body":"program I am teaching and I am an instructional designer?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":300.73,"endTime":302.16,"body":"How does that all work together?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":302.17,"endTime":304.3,"body":"How does that work together with the fact that I"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":304.3,"endTime":309.16,"body":"am on a board of directors for a small theater"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":309.16,"endTime":309.68,"body":"in Brooklyn?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":309.7,"endTime":311.84,"body":"Like, how do I make sense of these things?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":311.86,"endTime":314.17,"body":"So I often look for being able to communicate a"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":314.17,"endTime":315.07,"body":"strong narrative."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":315.88,"endTime":319.35,"body":"The attunement to what the role really is."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":319.36,"endTime":322.69,"body":"Again, looking at that job description, doing one's networking as"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":322.69,"endTime":325.36,"body":"one can to figure out, like, what is this actual"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":325.36,"endTime":325.66,"body":"role?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:: Is it","startTime":325.66,"endTime":329.26,"body":"I am making courses reproducing just that repetitive"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":329.26,"endTime":331.06,"body":"or rote dynamic?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":331.48,"endTime":335.18,"body":"Am I really like managing all the moving pieces?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":335.2,"endTime":338.44,"body":"Or am I working with a faculty member one to"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":338.44,"endTime":340.66,"body":"one to really encourage or move them forward?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":341.14,"endTime":344.23,"body":"How can I demonstrate my understanding of that in that"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":344.23,"endTime":346.0,"body":"I'm really interested in doing that?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":346.03,"endTime":347.11,"body":"Those stand out."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":348.07,"endTime":351.37,"body":"And within that, I think a diverse experience or a"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":351.37,"endTime":354.37,"body":"range of experiences, this goes with a narrative because I"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":354.37,"endTime":356.8,"body":"come from this idea of all learning is relevant."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":356.95,"endTime":361.78,"body":"Having that resume or CV that shows like I'm a"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":361.78,"endTime":365.11,"body":"dynamic being and it's OK, like, I think those do"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":365.11,"endTime":367.21,"body":"make strong instructional designers."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":367.21,"endTime":369.88,"body":"I have friends who went into college to be an"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":369.88,"endTime":370.36,"body":"accountant."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":370.55,"endTime":372.46,"body":"Twenty years later, they are still an accountant."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":372.46,"endTime":374.38,"body":"They've moved up a little, but that is their straight"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":374.38,"endTime":375.14,"body":"trajectory."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":375.16,"endTime":379.21,"body":"I appreciate a bit more variation because I think that"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":379.21,"endTime":382.48,"body":"breeds some of the lateral thinking that breeds some of"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":382.48,"endTime":385.99,"body":"the ability to cross connect, to be that deejay and"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":385.99,"endTime":388.72,"body":"really draw upon these different things for for the kind"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":388.72,"endTime":389.44,"body":"of work that we do."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":389.86,"endTime":390.19,"body":"Mm-Hmm."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":390.43,"endTime":393.79,"body":"If you were to look at an IDs portfolio, what"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":393.79,"endTime":394.9,"body":"are the things you're looking for."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":396.03,"endTime":400.59,"body":"I look at not just can they do the thing,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":400.68,"endTime":400.95,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":400.98,"endTime":402.84,"body":"Oh, they can make, they can make something, they can"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":402.84,"endTime":403.86,"body":"make an interactive."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":403.89,"endTime":408.54,"body":"Are they going the extra mile of somehow extending?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":408.54,"endTime":409.71,"body":"What are they thinking about?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":409.71,"endTime":412.14,"body":"What is the pedagogy involved in there?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":412.29,"endTime":415.92,"body":"Or extending thinking a little bit more about what they're"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":415.92,"endTime":417.32,"body":"also trying to communicate with?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":417.69,"endTime":418.98,"body":"So I'll give a good example."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":419.46,"endTime":422.25,"body":"In my work right now, I will make instructional videos"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":422.25,"endTime":424.17,"body":"so I can do the actual task."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":424.17,"endTime":428.88,"body":"But I'm also often mindful about what are the materials"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":429.21,"endTime":430.5,"body":"that I'm using within."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":430.77,"endTime":434.22,"body":"So it isn't just I was demonstrating how to use"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":434.22,"endTime":438.36,"body":"annotations and Google Docs, and so I'm making a video"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":438.36,"endTime":439.53,"body":"about how to use Google Docs."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":439.53,"endTime":442.17,"body":"But then I'm also thinking about what am I annotating"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":442.41,"endTime":445.47,"body":"and trying to think about what is interesting, useful, relevant"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":445.47,"endTime":448.08,"body":"information for our students to know or for our faculty"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":448.08,"endTime":448.5,"body":"to know."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":449.07,"endTime":451.8,"body":"And in this case, there was a resource that I"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":451.8,"endTime":455.34,"body":"knew a lot of faculty members are using that I"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":455.34,"endTime":457.68,"body":"think is a little problematic."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":458.04,"endTime":461.64,"body":"And so I was using that resource and then I"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":461.64,"endTime":464.31,"body":"was using the common feature to say, Oh, maybe the"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":464.32,"endTime":466.35,"body":"student was saying this comment."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":466.89,"endTime":468.6,"body":"So it was layering the learning there."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":468.81,"endTime":470.3,"body":"Maybe nobody ever picked up on it."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":470.31,"endTime":473.04,"body":"But I was also recognizing they may be paying attention"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":473.31,"endTime":474.81,"body":"to the piece that we're looking at."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":475.11,"endTime":478.56,"body":"And therefore this might give them not just how did"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":478.56,"endTime":481.47,"body":"you do annotation, but also, oh, maybe I should rethink using"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":481.47,"endTime":482.61,"body":"this particular resource."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":483.33,"endTime":487.05,"body":"So similarly, I'm looking at is there embedded wisdom beyond"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":487.05,"endTime":489.99,"body":"just look, I made this video or I made this"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":489.99,"endTime":490.89,"body":"interactive?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":491.1,"endTime":494.55,"body":"Is there any additional pedagogical ideas going on behind it"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":494.55,"endTime":497.73,"body":"because the tools can be learned?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":497.94,"endTime":502.11,"body":"But are you thinking about how they interface with the"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":502.11,"endTime":504.42,"body":"type of teaching, the type of learning, the type of"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":504.42,"endTime":504.99,"body":"students?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":504.99,"endTime":507.21,"body":"And so that's what I am typically looking for."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":507.27,"endTime":509.25,"body":"Is there anything else that shows me that there's an"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":509.25,"endTime":512.61,"body":"awareness besides just creating this to show that you can"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":512.61,"endTime":513.21,"body":"use it?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":513.3,"endTime":516.33,"body":"So that's more around, like the technology pieces that I"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":516.33,"endTime":517.62,"body":"might see in a portfolio."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":518.099,"endTime":524.039,"body":"Otherwise, I'm looking for language and ideas that reflect strong"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":524.039,"endTime":529.98,"body":"advocating and connection with the students and strong advocating, and"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":529.98,"endTime":533.04,"body":"connection with the faculty and not necessarily seeing that as"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":533.04,"endTime":534.42,"body":"at odds with one another."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":534.45,"endTime":537.36,"body":"Because I think in some ways, our relationship to the"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":537.36,"endTime":540.12,"body":"faculty is very similar to the faculty relationship to the"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":540.12,"endTime":540.6,"body":"students."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":540.96,"endTime":543.24,"body":"So if I can be on both of their sides,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":543.24,"endTime":545.55,"body":"then they can be on both of each other's sides"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":545.55,"endTime":547.38,"body":"as well and advocates for one another."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":547.41,"endTime":549.84,"body":"So those are things that I'm looking for, but I"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":549.84,"endTime":552.54,"body":"think there's a good amount of instructional designers out"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":552.54,"endTime":556.14,"body":"there who have become very interested in things like universal"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":556.14,"endTime":560.31,"body":"design for learning and open pedagogy and critical digital pedagogy."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":560.31,"endTime":563.25,"body":"And these other things that are making us really think"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":563.25,"endTime":565.8,"body":"about and be mindful of as we introduce tools, as"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":565.8,"endTime":568.04,"body":"we introduce practices, are we introducing harms?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":568.05,"endTime":572.82,"body":"And I'm looking for somebody who is thinking about and"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":572.82,"endTime":576.57,"body":"aware of the benefits of technology, the challenges and the"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":576.57,"endTime":577.44,"body":"potential harms?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":577.44,"endTime":579.87,"body":"And how do we think about that for our students"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":579.87,"endTime":580.53,"body":"and our faculty?"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":581.43,"endTime":584.91,"body":"Thinking beyond just looking at the ability to use the"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":584.91,"endTime":585.87,"body":"tech right?"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":586.38,"endTime":589.11,"body":"I have one last question that I'd like to ask"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":589.11,"endTime":589.65,"body":"everybody."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":589.77,"endTime":592.83,"body":"And that's what's your prediction for the future of instructional"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":592.83,"endTime":593.28,"body":"design?"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":593.88,"endTime":598.71,"body":"I prediction for instructional design, which I'm listening to Adam"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":598.89,"endTime":599.49,"body":"Grant's."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":599.49,"endTime":602.4,"body":"Think again, so I know I will be entirely wrong"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":602.4,"endTime":603.63,"body":"at whatever my predictions are."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":603.63,"endTime":604.43,"body":"But I'm OK with that."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":604.44,"endTime":605.52,"body":"I see."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":606.36,"endTime":609.63,"body":"And again, I will focus largely in higher ED because"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":609.63,"endTime":611.52,"body":"it's more of my realm."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":612.79,"endTime":614.47,"body":"I see a few things happening."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":615.1,"endTime":618.85,"body":"I see it becoming and I feel like I've seen"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":618.85,"endTime":621.37,"body":"this happen already a little bit in different pockets, especially"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":621.37,"endTime":625.42,"body":"with the large major universities out there."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":625.72,"endTime":629.77,"body":"There's an element of skilling, of becoming very much just,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":629.77,"endTime":631.38,"body":"you put the content in the course."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":631.39,"endTime":634.99,"body":"And with that, of course, becomes less money, less"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":635.41,"endTime":636.66,"body":"professional development and stuff."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":636.67,"endTime":639.16,"body":"So I see there is this one avenue and maybe"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":639.16,"endTime":642.64,"body":"those become the future stepping stones."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":642.88,"endTime":646.3,"body":"Or you work that and then you move into something"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":646.3,"endTime":646.86,"body":"that pays more."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":646.87,"endTime":651.88,"body":"But I see very much a cookie cutter automatic"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":652.36,"endTime":657.28,"body":"approach that limits the dynamism that any instructional designer will"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":657.28,"endTime":657.46,"body":"bring."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":657.46,"endTime":659.65,"body":"Very much like those institutions limit"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":659.65,"endTime":662.8,"body":"the dynamism that any instructor brings to those courses because"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":662.8,"endTime":665.83,"body":"they make, the courses is very strongly defined,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":665.83,"endTime":668.95,"body":"Tthe instructor has no real say over the curriculum, over"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":668.95,"endTime":669.85,"body":"the assignments."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":669.85,"endTime":672.22,"body":"They're there to give feedback in discussion."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":672.61,"endTime":674.56,"body":"I think there will be pockets where that also happens"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":674.56,"endTime":675.82,"body":"with instructional designers."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":676.42,"endTime":679.63,"body":"I think there'll be some ways that as that happens,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":679.63,"endTime":681.94,"body":"we will see, like with other industries and especially because"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":681.94,"endTime":682.61,"body":"of COVID."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":682.66,"endTime":685.93,"body":"People from other parts of the world being able to"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":686.29,"endTime":690.82,"body":"acquire those jobs and do those jobs because much of"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":690.82,"endTime":692.01,"body":"this is being done virtually."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":692.02,"endTime":695.44,"body":"And so if you don't even have to pay an"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":695.44,"endTime":698.59,"body":"instructional designer, 40000, but you can pay them 20000 because"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":698.59,"endTime":700.75,"body":"it's in a country where that is much more money,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":700.75,"endTime":702.31,"body":"I think we'll see that happen."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":702.61,"endTime":705.16,"body":"And on one hand, I think that's amazing because that"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":705.16,"endTime":707.71,"body":"brings in these really interesting global perspectives."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":708.1,"endTime":710.47,"body":"On the other hand, I don't know that they're going"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":710.47,"endTime":713.2,"body":"to be done in a way that is as beneficially"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":713.2,"endTime":714.7,"body":"inclusive for everybody involved."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":715.36,"endTime":719.83,"body":"I see within other parts of higher ED, much more"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":720.19,"endTime":724.18,"body":"so than previously, your instructional design team and your center"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":724.18,"endTime":726.19,"body":"for Teaching and Learning Teams become one."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":726.61,"endTime":728.26,"body":"There's places where this already exists."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":728.26,"endTime":731.23,"body":"There's places where they're just coming to it or they"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":731.23,"endTime":733.09,"body":"came to it in the last two or three years."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":733.21,"endTime":735.73,"body":"So I think we'll see a continued trend of that,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":735.73,"endTime":740.62,"body":"especially as whatever comes after COVID, because there will be"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":740.62,"endTime":743.95,"body":"something else that sends us back into our homes or"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":744.37,"endTime":747.01,"body":"because that's the instability of at least the climate for"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":747.02,"endTime":748.69,"body":"a foreseeable future."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":749.08,"endTime":751.13,"body":"I think you'll see that happen."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":751.15,"endTime":753.7,"body":"I think I think in the near future, we will"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":753.7,"endTime":757.33,"body":"continue to see some level of exodus of instructional designers"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":757.33,"endTime":759.82,"body":"from higher ED just trying to recover from what happened"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":759.85,"endTime":762.12,"body":"because I certainly have seen that within my circle of"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":762.13,"endTime":762.81,"body":"contacts."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":762.85,"endTime":767.65,"body":"There's probably throughout this past, since about February, at least"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":767.65,"endTime":770.29,"body":"once a month hearing from somebody who's just, I'm done"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":770.29,"endTime":770.7,"body":"here."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":770.71,"endTime":771.94,"body":"I actually literally had that."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":772.24,"endTime":774.67,"body":"Have an email from a colleague about that today."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":774.7,"endTime":777.22,"body":"I can't do this type of work in traditional higher"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":777.22,"endTime":777.85,"body":"ed anymore."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":777.91,"endTime":780.13,"body":"That's part of why I ended up at College Unbound,"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":780.13,"endTime":782.98,"body":"which is a nontraditional, higher ed institution and it's a"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":782.98,"endTime":785.83,"body":"fairly new one, is because they are really looking at"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":785.83,"endTime":788.32,"body":"and thinking about this differently and thinking through the lens"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":788.32,"endTime":791.62,"body":"of equity and care, not just for students, but for"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":791.62,"endTime":793.02,"body":"faculty and for staff."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":793.09,"endTime":797.56,"body":"And then I sadly feel much of what has been"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":797.56,"endTime":800.95,"body":"learned will be forgotten in this pandemic."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":801.1,"endTime":806.89,"body":"And so will the recognition that instructional designers gained during"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":806.89,"endTime":810.34,"body":"this will be pulled back a bit and they won't"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":810.34,"endTime":813.79,"body":"be recognized or brought in many of the ways that"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":814.27,"endTime":816.88,"body":"they should be, that they should be considered part of"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":816.97,"endTime":819.25,"body":"the teaching teams throughout any institution."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":820.06,"endTime":821.41,"body":"I hope you're wrong on that one."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":821.8,"endTime":822.73,"body":"Me too."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":822.76,"endTime":826.24,"body":"I yes, I 100 percent hope I am wrong."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":826.24,"endTime":829.54,"body":"I get worried because as we look at different types"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":829.54,"endTime":833.86,"body":"of signs, just make me leery of institutions are, they"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":833.86,"endTime":836.02,"body":"always are, but they will continue to be like, This"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":836.02,"endTime":837.85,"body":"is the worst time we've ever been cash-strapped."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":838.21,"endTime":841.33,"body":"And the ways that plays out around different policies and"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":841.33,"endTime":847.48,"body":"supports in the assumptions that just because people survived pandemic"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":847.48,"endTime":851.68,"body":"survived teaching in COVID in this pandemic and these different"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":851.98,"endTime":856.9,"body":"formats, they now know online learning and I think people"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":856.9,"endTime":858.1,"body":"did amazing things."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":858.37,"endTime":860.71,"body":"I also think many of them were just were just"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":860.71,"endTime":861.96,"body":"trying to survive."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":861.97,"endTime":864.91,"body":"And so those aren't the same things."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":864.91,"endTime":865.93,"body":"I'm glad they survived."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":865.93,"endTime":867.67,"body":"I'm glad they did all the amazing things that they"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":867.67,"endTime":867.99,"body":"did."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":868.0,"endTime":870.49,"body":"And yet at the same time, there's still so much"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":870.49,"endTime":873.16,"body":"more for us to think about and figure out with"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":873.55,"endTime":876.4,"body":"teaching and learning that it should never just be on"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":876.4,"endTime":878.05,"body":"the shoulders of the faculty member."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":878.05,"endTime":880.48,"body":"There should be teams there to support their teaching and"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":880.48,"endTime":880.93,"body":"learning."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":881.59,"endTime":886.48,"body":"And I just worry about institutions also believing and uplifting"},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":886.48,"endTime":886.78,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":886.87,"endTime":888.48,"body":"But yes, I hope that I am."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":888.49,"endTime":890.38,"body":"I hope I am horribly wrong on that."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":892.18,"endTime":895.06,"body":"Thank you very much, Lance, for your time and for"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":895.06,"endTime":896.05,"body":"all of your insights."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":896.44,"endTime":896.8,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"LANCE:","startTime":896.83,"endTime":897.64,"body":"This is a pleasure."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":899.53,"endTime":903.04,"body":"You've been listening to Demystifying Instructional Design, a podcast where"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":903.04,"endTime":905.77,"body":"I interview instructional designers about what they do."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":906.37,"endTime":908.32,"body":"I'm Rebecca Hogue, your podcast host."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":908.95,"endTime":910.93,"body":"If you or someone you know might like to be"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":910.93,"endTime":914.8,"body":"a guest on demystifying instructional design, please complete the Be"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":914.8,"endTime":915.61,"body":"My Guest form."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":915.61,"endTime":917.77,"body":"Available on demystifying instructional design"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":917.77,"endTime":921.46,"body":"dot com. Show notes are posted as a blog post on"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":921.46,"endTime":923.53,"body":"demystifying instructional design dot com."},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":924.01,"endTime":926.38,"body":"If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe or leave a"},{"speaker":"REBECCA:","startTime":926.38,"endTime":928.27,"body":"comment in the show notes blog post."}]}