WEBVTT 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:32.080 The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the Bible? What are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There are really big, deep questions that we ask each other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves. And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in our understanding of who God is, his word and the way that he's called us to live. 00:00:35.680 --> 00:00:44.415 Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Cultivate podcast with The Grove Church. I'm Charlie Loften. I'm the lead pastor there, and we are here with Bagel Boone. Bagel Boone. 00:00:45.295 --> 00:00:48.015 Changed the pants. You're repping the Celtics today. 00:00:48.015 --> 00:00:49.775 No. Season's back in session. 00:00:49.775 --> 00:00:52.095 Yeah. What are your expectations? 00:00:52.735 --> 00:01:00.360 I feel a little bit, like, who's to say? Because, I mean, we have... So we traded not so many, but we traded some core people. 00:01:00.760 --> 00:01:07.800 That look like a six seed, but we're not... And we may or may not win our first round, but we don't really have big expectations. Yes. That's fair. 00:01:07.800 --> 00:01:19.815 Yes. But I love that we still have the same coach. Honestly, this is... Well, not super hot take. It's pretty divided in the Celtics world, but, like, I kind of wish we kept Jalen Brown, and we could have done without Jayson Tatum. 00:01:20.055 --> 00:01:22.055 Oh, wow. I don't know what it's on tape. 00:01:22.055 --> 00:01:30.780 That also could be blended with the fact that he was out a lot last year, so I don't have, like a last game I saw him and was like, oh, yeah. We need that guy. 00:01:30.780 --> 00:01:31.100 Right. 00:01:31.100 --> 00:01:39.980 But as long as we have Pritchard, I feel pretty happy with that. Okay. I was very worried that they're gonna throw him into the pool, and then I would riot. 00:01:42.955 --> 00:01:49.435 Sorry. I just don't... I I don't care for the Celtics. I'm very anti Larry Bird and have been Really? For a really, really long time. 00:01:49.435 --> 00:02:00.340 Interesting. Why? I can't shake it. Because he and his Indiana State basketball team beat Sydney Moncrief and the Arkansas Razorbacks in the late seventies to go to the final four. 00:02:00.500 --> 00:02:02.180 His NBA career. 00:02:02.180 --> 00:02:07.140 But then he... It was still him? Yes. And then he went to the NBA. But it started prior to NBA. 00:02:07.300 --> 00:02:20.955 It has nothing to do with him specifically being with the Celtics. Okay. I I do tend to be against teams that win championships all the time. I would rather see I would rather see... If my favorite team can't win, I would rather see an... 00:02:20.955 --> 00:02:21.835 A different team win. 00:02:21.835 --> 00:02:22.075 Yeah. 00:02:22.640 --> 00:02:27.760 And so But what if the Razorbacks started living winning? Well, there's my favorite team. 00:02:27.920 --> 00:02:28.720 But would you be like 00:02:28.880 --> 00:02:41.095 But outside of my favorite team, I don't want there to be dynasties. I don't want the Lakers I don't want the Lakers and the Celtics to exchange championships every other year, which is what it was like for me. Time. For a long time. Mhmm. 00:02:41.095 --> 00:02:45.495 That's boring, and I didn't like it. And you have Larry Bird, and that's terrible. So Sure. Anyways. That's fair. 00:02:45.495 --> 00:03:14.985 So we are talking church history, and up until this point, we spent some time talking about the reasons why it's important, and then we spent some time talking about the overview. And periodically, I'm gonna keep talking about this overview where it's like it starts with this small movement in Jerusalem, moves into this regional thing, and then ultimately begins to expand beyond that through persecution. And then with Constantine, the persecution changes, and we start switching to the church state being combined. 00:03:14.985 --> 00:03:16.265 Did you ever find his son's name? 00:03:16.700 --> 00:03:20.860 It... I was exactly... He he he... There was there was... He had three... 00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:30.860 He had four sons, but the main ones were this guy named Flavius. And then and then Nola, I said, something like Constantinus or something like Yeah. He had two sons named that, actually. 00:03:31.305 --> 00:03:32.425 Yeah. Same name? 00:03:32.425 --> 00:03:39.625 Yeah. Two and three. And so That's wild. It is wild. So, anyways, George Foreman did that. 00:03:39.625 --> 00:03:41.305 He named all his sons George. 00:03:42.185 --> 00:03:47.320 I hate that. Yeah. Anyway There's zero differentiation, like, on the family tree. 00:03:47.320 --> 00:04:07.225 And so then Constantine kinda comes in and changes all of that. It becomes the established religion. It kind of grows in its political power. But as it's getting bigger and and power is being centralized in Rome, a division is starting to happen in the East and with... Was in in what is now modern day Turkey. 00:04:07.385 --> 00:04:49.270 And the church has its first split called the schism, the Orthodox Church over here, the Catholic Church here. Then we go through the medieval ages with just a lot of corruption in the Catholic Church that kind of has its peak there with the Reformation, with Martin Luther, John Calvin, Zwingli, those guys. And then from there, we see this burst of the Protestant movement, and we see the expansion of Christianity ultimately all over the world. And then for our sake, from there, starting with the eighteen hundreds, we'll kinda do deep dives into how the church has developed over the course of the eighteen hundreds, nineteen hundreds to today to kind of ultimately end up, why are we who we are? Mhmm. 00:04:49.270 --> 00:04:52.790 It's kind of... So we're we're taking a broad view, but ultimately 00:04:53.110 --> 00:04:54.150 Narrowing down to us. 00:04:54.150 --> 00:04:56.985 Coming down. Hey, we wanna look at the whole yearbook, but also 00:04:57.465 --> 00:04:58.745 And then we'll tell the history 00:04:58.745 --> 00:05:18.070 of where The Grove started. Where's my picture? And so I I had mentioned last time that we were gonna start with the book of Acts, but the more... I've slept on it since then, and I want... What I I do want us to start with the passage in Matthew where we have the phrase where Jesus says, on this rock, I'll build my church. 00:05:18.070 --> 00:05:26.465 Mhmm. Because it becomes one of the... Controversial isn't the right word. Divisive might be. Maybe it's both of those. 00:05:26.465 --> 00:05:54.745 It's an inflection point. It is. What you believe happened here determines really kind of what church you want to be a part of or really probably most people's cases, what church you go to retroactively determines what you believe about this passage. There's probably not many people who are like, would read this passage, think, find out what it means. Well, based on what that means, I need to very find a very particular type of church. 00:05:54.745 --> 00:06:12.790 You're raised or you go to a particular sort of church. That understands. And then you read this and you put... Make the interpretation that fits your type of church. Because ultimately what this comes down to is where does church authority come from? 00:06:13.750 --> 00:06:21.495 Who who gets to decide who is in charge of church? So I'm in charge of a church. Who decided that? Yeah. Well, the elders 00:06:21.655 --> 00:06:22.535 The people that hired you. 00:06:22.695 --> 00:06:37.490 Elders hired me. Well, who appointed those elders? Well, it was these elders appointed these elders, and this church was planted by Fellowship Bible Church in Rogers. And so those elders appointed these elders. Well, who appointed them? 00:06:37.490 --> 00:07:01.830 And how far back do you have to be able to go in kind of this line of succession to say, Yeah, our church is a legitimate church with real authority. You've been to a wedding, go to a Christian wedding, it's like, By the power given me as a minister of Jesus Christ, I pronounce you man and wife. Where did I get that? I mean, I've got 00:07:01.830 --> 00:07:03.510 a Whose power? Yeah. 00:07:05.190 --> 00:07:27.805 Did I get this power of Jesus Christ as a minister? Where does it come from? And so there's a lot of different ideas about that. And really, again, a cornerstone, keystone verse passage about this is going to be in Matthew chapter 16, starting with verse 13. And as to not move my head away from the mic, I will move my iPad over here. 00:07:28.125 --> 00:07:49.785 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, who do people say the son of man is? They replied, some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets. But what about you? He asked, who do you say I am? Simon Peter answered, you are the Messiah, the son of the living God. 00:07:50.265 --> 00:08:13.600 Jesus replied, blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 00:08:14.315 --> 00:08:17.355 This pre... This is pre crucifixion? 00:08:17.355 --> 00:08:34.800 Yes. Okay. Right after that, in a really interesting kind of twist, right after that, in verse 21, Jesus predicts his death. Peter says, says, says, no, no, no, that can't be true. You can't die. 00:08:35.040 --> 00:08:44.675 And then Jesus looks at him and says, get behind me, Satan. So we go from this passage right here from where I'm giving you the keys to heaven to immediately 00:08:45.555 --> 00:08:47.155 calling us many layers. 00:08:47.155 --> 00:09:05.810 Yeah. He's not a he's not a simple guy. And so and so what we have here, and I will tell you this particular play on words to make sure you don't miss it because it does matter, and then I'm gonna ask you a question. Okay. And he says, I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church. 00:09:06.775 --> 00:09:19.655 Okay. So up until this point, his given name was not Peter. Okay. Is it is a name that Jesus gave him. I mean, he's referred to as Simon Peter here, but eventually his name was his name was Simon. 00:09:20.215 --> 00:09:21.255 Oh, okay. 00:09:21.690 --> 00:09:23.850 Peter's the name that that Jesus gave him. 00:09:23.850 --> 00:09:24.410 Okay. 00:09:24.410 --> 00:09:31.930 And it and it is a play on words. Does Peter mean rock? Yeah. So it seems like your name is Petros. You're Petros. 00:09:31.930 --> 00:09:36.250 Mhmm. And on this Petra, I will build my church. Interesting. 00:09:36.490 --> 00:09:44.855 Okay. Have you seen that guy that said he believes the conspiracy that rocks are actually really spongy and they tense up when we touch them? 00:09:47.415 --> 00:10:05.510 So we we gotta play on words here, and I'm doing it in Greek, but obviously, it's unlikely probably that Jesus was speaking Greek to Peter here, but his name was Simon. But now I'm calling you Rocky. Your name is Rocky, and on this rock, I'll build my church. 00:10:05.510 --> 00:10:05.910 Okay. 00:10:08.465 --> 00:10:15.185 Based on that, and just kind of a normal reading of that passage, what do you think happened there? 00:10:18.625 --> 00:10:21.825 I assume that means Peter's supposed to open the first church. 00:10:22.940 --> 00:10:32.220 You think that based on that reading, that Peter is now the one that is supposed to start the church? 00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:43.355 I mean, I don't think that means he's solely the only person, but it's like, hey, you started, but all the disciples are gonna do it again or do it also. 00:10:44.235 --> 00:10:54.830 So you you think it's like, hey, you're gonna start the first one. Yeah. But you and the apostles have your other your other boy... I'll have shared leadership. 00:10:54.830 --> 00:11:06.215 Sounds like if I was like, hey, start a small group. And then I would hope other people would start small groups too. But not like, well, now Charlie is the only small groups person and... 00:11:06.615 --> 00:11:18.615 Well, so that as opposed to, Charlie, I want... You are now in charge of small groups. Other people may... Other people are going to start small groups, but you are now in charge of all the small groups. 00:11:19.630 --> 00:11:20.190 Yeah. 00:11:20.190 --> 00:11:21.870 You're now the small groups pastor. 00:11:22.110 --> 00:11:27.310 Yeah. But I don't think that means that, like, other people couldn't become the small groups pastor. 00:11:28.830 --> 00:11:38.685 There could be multiple small groups pastors? Yeah. But is there one person that is in charge of this movement? Jesus is 00:11:39.005 --> 00:11:39.565 At the time. 00:11:39.645 --> 00:11:56.070 But now he's gone, and now Peter is now in charge. So if if John or James wants to do something, they have to do it under Peter's authority because Peter is in charge of the church. Is Peter now in the the the head of all the disciples? 00:11:56.550 --> 00:11:58.805 No. I don't think so. 00:11:58.805 --> 00:12:04.325 You still think the disciples have equal authority? Yeah. Then when he says 00:12:04.405 --> 00:12:06.005 They all learn the same stuff. 00:12:06.405 --> 00:12:09.845 But something different happens here. Yeah. 00:12:11.620 --> 00:12:12.820 Can it be both? 00:12:13.620 --> 00:12:18.500 Well, it can be a lot of things. I was just wondering, because the thing I like about you is you're very curious. 00:12:18.500 --> 00:12:19.140 But 00:12:20.420 --> 00:12:35.795 I would not say that you are academically studied when it comes to church history and denominations and all those kinds of things. I knew you're you're... Follow God, you like... You love the Bible, you're very curious. So I wonder if it would be a very natural reading for you to be like, oh, this is kind of what this means. 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:43.560 Yeah. I'll take that. It's interesting to me that you wouldn't... That you don't immediately think Peter is now at a minimum king of the apostles. 00:12:44.360 --> 00:12:56.175 No. I mean, I think that is obviously an important role to take on, but I would assume that's like, you're the team leader, but everybody should also be doing the same thing. 00:12:56.175 --> 00:13:00.975 Yeah. Okay. But he is team... Do you believe that he is now at least the team leader? 00:13:01.295 --> 00:13:07.100 Yeah. But not like... Like if he died two days later, it'd be like, now somebody else is the team leader. 00:13:07.100 --> 00:13:09.980 Yeah. Who needs... But okay. So I got it. So here's the question. 00:13:09.980 --> 00:13:10.540 Okay. 00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:24.085 Let's let's let's go with this. Peter is now the team leader. And not two days later, but thirty years later, he does die. Who now is the team leader and how do we 00:13:24.085 --> 00:13:27.285 decide? Whoever's willing. 00:13:29.125 --> 00:13:31.925 Well, me and you are both willing. How do they decide? 00:13:34.510 --> 00:13:36.190 Can't we both be leaders? 00:13:36.190 --> 00:13:40.670 But still somebody... Somebody's ultimately got to be in charge. Right? 00:13:41.710 --> 00:13:45.710 Would say, if you know how to start a church, then you can be the leader. 00:13:45.710 --> 00:14:01.475 But you've got this church, this church, and this church. You got three churches. Who is in charge of the three churches in general to make sure all of the churches are good churches? Or is there such a person? Or was the idea, hey, well, they're gonna be all these churches, but they are always... 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:09.040 They're going to be loosely affiliated, and you've got heads of individual churches, but no one who is in charge of the churches. 00:14:09.760 --> 00:14:15.600 I would say there only needs to be a leader so far as they need to adhere to orthodox. 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:17.200 And who is the enforcer of that? 00:14:20.295 --> 00:14:23.415 I guess Peter and then whoever takes over after him. 00:14:23.415 --> 00:14:26.855 And so Peter would have to delegate his power to somebody? 00:14:27.255 --> 00:14:35.790 Yeah. But I don't think the church is Peter. I think he just happens to be the person that's over it. Not like he's defining the church. Like the first pope. 00:14:36.990 --> 00:14:45.710 I guess. K. But it's like... It's not like Peter is narrating what church is. 00:14:46.715 --> 00:14:48.315 Oh, he's in charge, though. 00:14:48.795 --> 00:14:53.915 It's not like he wrote... I guess he has a... Is Peter the same... That's the book of Peter? 00:14:53.915 --> 00:14:58.155 Yeah. I mean, says on this rock... On this rock, he will... It's Jesus' church. Yeah. 00:14:58.555 --> 00:15:11.720 But it is on this rock that Jesus will build His church. So I'm gonna build my church on this. This is the thing. I've got this church, and in this sense, He's not talking about churches. He's talking about the worldwide Christian movement. 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:23.085 On this big picture, capital c Church, I'm gonna build it on this rock. What is the rock that he's building his church on? 00:15:23.725 --> 00:15:25.245 And this is as Peter. 00:15:25.245 --> 00:15:26.765 Peter. You think it's Peter? Okay. 00:15:26.765 --> 00:15:33.950 But I think the one thing that feels different in my mind is that, like, you being the leader of our church doesn't make you the creator of truth. 00:15:36.190 --> 00:15:38.350 Well, who would that, that, okay. 00:15:38.590 --> 00:15:50.945 You just happen to have the book and you're a good communicator and you're good at the skillset that comes with creating a church, but it's not like you could add anything that makes the church more true than it was before when you were the leader. 00:15:51.265 --> 00:15:55.585 Yeah, but you would agree, like he's been given these keys. 00:15:55.585 --> 00:15:55.825 Yeah, 00:15:56.540 --> 00:15:59.340 He's given authority. He's given a level of authority. 00:15:59.340 --> 00:15:59.900 Yeah. 00:15:59.900 --> 00:16:15.805 Okay. And it is not a shared authority with the other disciples. He is now kind of the the head of the disciples, and those disciples are gonna start churches. And all of this is under Peter's overall leadership. Yeah. 00:16:17.405 --> 00:16:28.750 Okay. So this is kind of where we are. Okay. There are essentially four major interpretations for this. And the first one is... 00:16:28.750 --> 00:16:32.590 We'll just... It's just very clearly, it is the Roman Catholic interpretation. 00:16:32.590 --> 00:16:33.230 Mhmm. 00:16:34.030 --> 00:16:41.965 Peter, the the rock is Peter. On this rock, I will build my church. He is going to build his church on Peter. 00:16:42.205 --> 00:16:45.725 I'm This is the same Peter that the book of Peter is? Mhmm. Okay. 00:16:45.805 --> 00:17:04.390 And I'm giving the keys of heaven to Peter. You are now in charge of this. I'm gonna leave, and when I leave, you are 100% in charge. You have my... I'm transferring my authority to lead and direct this movement to you. 00:17:04.390 --> 00:17:17.505 Again, Jesus is still... It's his church. He's still ultimately in charge. But on here on earth, Peter is the final say and ultimate authority on the church. He's completely in charge. 00:17:17.745 --> 00:18:00.560 He has the keys, metaphorical keys, even though there are a lot of Catholic paintings around this idea. And I I saw one of them when I was at the Vatican Museum earlier this year, where it is... You see Jesus talking to Peter, and Jesus is holding literal keys and handing them to Peter. And so now Peter is in charge of the church and he has the keys. And so the idea then there being, He's got the keys, He's in charge, and His authority slash those keys have to be passed on to somebody. 00:18:01.055 --> 00:18:15.000 It was Jesus' intention then and now that there always be one person who is the ultimate authority and in charge of the keys of the church. 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.040 Those are being multiple. 00:18:16.040 --> 00:18:17.480 So it starts with Peter. 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:18.040 And 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:47.030 Peter gave or designated somebody else, designated somebody else, somebody else, and eventually it kind of grew into a, for lack of a better word, a political administrative process by which we're decide... We have we have to decide In order Peter. Who now has the keys, who is now in charge. The the play on words makes it very clear he is talking specifically about Peter and only Peter. 00:18:47.030 --> 00:18:47.590 You 00:18:48.150 --> 00:19:20.700 know, the play on words makes that the case, and that the keys of the kingdom suggests a very particular authority that is given to Peter. He has a certain type of authority. And so then what Catholics would say is that this connects Peter's role and makes him what they would then call the first pope. He was the first pope, and the continuation of that role is meant to be, a successor has to either be... Has to be appointed or designated at some point, and there was always meant to be this. 00:19:20.860 --> 00:19:32.685 That feels like he's given a role, not like a higher rung spiritually. Say that again? Right? Like, it's not like he became holier than the other disciples. He just got another 00:19:32.685 --> 00:19:47.690 set of skills. A But it a very significant leadership function. Yeah. And he is ultimately the CEO of what will become the Worldwide Church. Church Incorporated. 00:19:47.690 --> 00:20:07.145 Yeah, he is completely in charge and all authority that, you know, he appoints these bishops who appoint these priests, and these priests only have authority because their bishop gave it to them, and these bishops only have authority because the pope gave it to them. 00:20:07.145 --> 00:20:07.545 Okay. 00:20:08.100 --> 00:20:15.860 So everybody's authority flows through Peter. So they think they to give to If you are not in that line, then you are outside of the church. 00:20:15.860 --> 00:20:19.620 So like if John told you, but Peter wasn't aware what John told you. 00:20:20.655 --> 00:20:34.655 Well, I mean, if John if John decides he was going to start something different than what Peter... Peter says, this is what this is what we're doing. And John's like, I'm not doing that. I'm doing something very different. I'm going off here by my own, and you can't tell me what to do. 00:20:34.655 --> 00:20:36.175 That would cease to be the church. 00:20:36.470 --> 00:20:37.110 Okay. 00:20:37.110 --> 00:20:51.910 Because it is outside of the authority. Okay. And so Peter then says, gives the keys to somebody else upon his death, and then somebody else said, man, I wanted to be in charge. I'm gonna go start my own thing, and I don't care what this guy says. Yeah. 00:20:52.425 --> 00:21:00.105 That is leaving the church because the church is run by the person who has the keys, Peter, and then Peter passes them on to somebody else. 00:21:00.105 --> 00:21:00.425 And so 00:21:00.425 --> 00:21:24.545 that is where authority to be in charge of the big picture church. And so we currently do not recognize the authority of the current pope to tell us what is or is not church, what is or is not true. Do not recognize We that recognize his authority. So therefore, from that perspective, we are not in the church. Okay. 00:21:24.545 --> 00:21:25.665 I was just about to say, I 00:21:25.665 --> 00:21:27.985 would say, yeah, start your own thing. 00:21:28.705 --> 00:21:47.120 No. No. This is the church and anything outside of it, like, you start your own thing, but under the umbrella of authority and protection that comes from Peter or his successors. So that is the Roman Catholic understanding of this. Okay? 00:21:48.935 --> 00:22:13.800 A very common Protestant interpretation of this is while Jesus does make the play on words, hey, you're the rock. And on this rock, I'm gonna build my church. And that really the rock he's talking about is what the the... What Rocky said. Rocky said, you are you are... 00:22:13.800 --> 00:22:19.745 You're the Christ. You're the Messiah. You're the son of God. Oh, pretty up above. Yeah. 00:22:19.745 --> 00:22:27.585 Okay. Peter, wow. Well done. That is great that you know that because you did not come up with that on your own. That was revealed to you from heaven. 00:22:27.585 --> 00:22:35.960 That is great what you said. You're like a rock because it is on that rock, the thing that you said, then I'm gonna build the church. 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:37.480 Okay. I like that. 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.400 I wonder if you're gonna like all four of these, I think. 00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:43.160 No, I like that better than the previous one. 00:22:44.015 --> 00:22:50.335 Yeah, and so then it is not Peter himself, but the confession that Peter made. 00:22:50.335 --> 00:22:54.975 Yeah, I don't think I like the idea that Peter is the thing. 00:22:56.520 --> 00:23:06.200 Because Peter's human. Right. So so the confession is is is what Jesus starts talking about. Yeah. That that is what becomes really important. 00:23:06.520 --> 00:23:09.240 And Jesus emphasizes, hey, the father revealed this to 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:09.880 you. Mhmm. 00:23:10.325 --> 00:23:20.565 This is not something that you came up with on your own. And the church is established upon Jesus's identity. Mhmm. That is what what is the cornerstone of the church. Yeah. 00:23:20.565 --> 00:23:34.370 The cornerstone of the church is the lordship and divinity of Jesus Christ. That is the cornerstone. Mhmm. Romans ten nine. You know, if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is lord. 00:23:35.650 --> 00:23:41.170 You know, first Corinthians three, Paul talks about it. The only foundation upon which you can build a church. 00:23:41.170 --> 00:23:41.490 Mhmm. 00:23:42.545 --> 00:23:52.705 Jesus is the only foundation. So if you're gonna build the church, he is... There's some... There are other examples of this. Like, I am I am the I am the cornerstone. 00:23:52.705 --> 00:23:58.600 Mhmm. And what is the rock upon which the church is built? Me. Jesus. Yeah. 00:23:58.600 --> 00:23:59.080 Okay. 00:23:59.080 --> 00:24:00.200 I like this one. 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:19.025 Okay. Well, there's there's some blending ones here in a little bit to see if you but that that is the one that... Yeah. And so that's what determines whether or not something is a church if it is built on a proper confession of Who Jesus is. Jesus is. 00:24:19.025 --> 00:24:23.825 Okay. And so the play... There's still... He's he's not he's not denying the play on words. Mhmm. 00:24:23.825 --> 00:24:36.090 Hey, Rocky. That rock you just dropped, you're I mean, dropped an awesome rock. I'm gonna have to call you Rocky. Mhmm. Because you just you just you just dropped a rock. 00:24:36.090 --> 00:24:36.410 I mean, 00:24:36.410 --> 00:24:37.690 we should start saying that. 00:24:37.690 --> 00:24:47.305 Right. I mean, because that that that's the play on words. It's like, hey, you're a rock and on rock, I'm gonna build the church. That's Catholic interpretation. Okay. 00:24:47.305 --> 00:24:56.425 You're a rocky guy because What you said was rocky. What you said was rock. That's the rock. What you said was the rock. I'm gonna have to call you rocky. 00:24:56.660 --> 00:24:57.140 Okay. 00:24:57.140 --> 00:25:07.220 Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. So that is your probably most of your most of your non Catholics are gonna gonna drop 00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:07.540 on that. 00:25:07.540 --> 00:25:07.860 Was that 00:25:07.860 --> 00:25:13.435 a part of what they reformed? Like, Martin Luther was, like, reinterpreting that? Did you just 00:25:13.435 --> 00:25:27.675 say Protestant? Get into the depths of this a little bit. I mean, there's a... Martin Luther specifically, but Zwingli, all those guys, Martin Luther, he's a very complicated guy. 00:25:27.675 --> 00:25:27.915 K. 00:25:28.420 --> 00:25:37.380 I mean, he was not trying to... He... Well, I don't think he was trying to say there shouldn't be a pope. Okay. But, I mean, what what he... 00:25:37.380 --> 00:25:58.190 But he got really, really close to it by saying the only real authority for what is true is the scripture, not our tradition. Tradition should no longer play a role in what makes something true. We've always believed this. The guy in charge says we believe this, Therefore, we believe this. 00:25:58.190 --> 00:25:58.510 Mhmm. 00:25:58.510 --> 00:26:06.030 The guy in charge says we do this. If it's not from scripture, then we don't believe it. Yeah. That was the main thing. And so ultimately, there's certain... 00:26:06.030 --> 00:26:13.885 At a minimum, there seems to be an implication there of no pope, But we'll do a deep dive on that to kinda make sure we really... But that won't be for another... I don't know. 00:26:14.125 --> 00:26:18.525 Officially convinced that I'm not Catholic. I'm officially convinced I'm not Catholic. 00:26:18.525 --> 00:26:21.725 I am also convinced that you're not Catholic. I don't know that 00:26:21.725 --> 00:26:24.470 we needed more clarity on that. 00:26:25.670 --> 00:26:39.665 Right. And so we've kind of in in the... We've kind of in this sense, we've kind of jumped into... We've kind of blurred two and three together here because the second one is that the foundation of the church was Peter's confession. Okay. 00:26:39.825 --> 00:26:41.265 The fact that he said 00:26:42.225 --> 00:26:43.265 The rocky statement. 00:26:43.345 --> 00:26:44.865 That he gave the rocky statement. 00:26:44.865 --> 00:26:45.345 Mhmm. 00:26:45.345 --> 00:26:53.980 The third one is similar, and I think we kind of we ended up moving from the second one to third one just in our conversation of it is the rock is in fact Jesus. 00:26:54.380 --> 00:26:55.100 Okay. 00:26:55.420 --> 00:26:57.980 It is not the statement that Peter made. 00:26:57.980 --> 00:26:58.300 Mhmm. 00:26:58.300 --> 00:27:21.470 But the content of that statement, the divinity and lordship of Jesus Christ, it is Jesus Himself that is the... He is the rock. So I would say that I probably kind of somewhere between two and three. Think that's kind of to me to me, almost like the distinction between those two is pretty close, pretty minimal. Right? 00:27:21.470 --> 00:27:56.220 I mean, it's like, but but but there is there is a there is a distinction like, but like, but it's similar. So it's not what Peter, it's not Peter, it's not what Peter said, it is the content of what Peter said, which is Jesus being Lord. Know, the cornerstone of the church is people saying it, Yeah. People agreeing with it, or it is the substance of it, which is Jesus is Lord is the rock. That truth, that person, Jesus. 00:27:56.220 --> 00:27:58.780 And so it's not Peter, it's not what he said. 00:28:00.555 --> 00:28:04.715 But he does actually call himself the cornerstone multiple times. Right? Right. 00:28:06.475 --> 00:28:13.675 Yeah. Ephesians two twenty is is an example of that. And he uses... Jesus himself uses it as a metaphor. 00:28:13.675 --> 00:28:14.075 Okay. 00:28:14.075 --> 00:28:41.265 And so, again, it's not Peter per se. It's not even his confession. It is Jesus. To me, too... I feel like that one, even though it's true in in in in its sense that the whole Jesus is the cornerstone, but I feel like in that moment, that does kind of deny the play on words a little bit. 00:28:41.265 --> 00:28:41.825 Right. Why do you have 00:28:41.825 --> 00:28:42.065 to call 00:28:42.065 --> 00:28:43.585 him why do have to call him Rocky? 00:28:43.585 --> 00:28:45.850 Yeah. He did do that. Right. 00:28:45.850 --> 00:28:53.530 Yeah. So Christ... In this one, Christ alone is the ultimate foundation source of authority and sustaining power of the church. 00:28:53.530 --> 00:28:53.930 Mhmm. 00:28:53.930 --> 00:29:12.445 So this interpretation, it fits the broader biblical teaching about Jesus, but again, this is what it says right here. It does not specifically address the word play. That's the problem with it. It's true Jesus is the cornerstone, but it doesn't really fit this passage very well because why'd you call him Rocky? 00:29:12.445 --> 00:29:12.605 Right. 00:29:13.500 --> 00:29:18.300 I love that we have a name that's rock. It makes talking about the metaphor of this. 00:29:18.300 --> 00:29:19.820 That we have the rock. 00:29:19.820 --> 00:29:24.780 That we... Yeah. We can talk about Rocky and rock. We don't have to get no Petros and Petra or whatever. 00:29:26.285 --> 00:29:30.605 You did on the very first one. You said it's like what Rocky said, and I thought you were about 00:29:30.605 --> 00:29:42.390 to drop a Rocky quote. You know, all due respect to Mark Powell Freeman, our small groups pastor, you know, there's a new Rocky in my heart. Did you see project hail Mary? 00:29:42.870 --> 00:29:44.790 No. I do need to see it. I know. 00:29:44.790 --> 00:29:46.550 Read the book first. It's really, really... Read the 00:29:46.550 --> 00:29:47.750 book first. Okay. 00:29:48.710 --> 00:29:53.670 Read the book first. And I'm not just talking about project hail Mary, guys. Just talking about in general. 00:29:53.895 --> 00:29:54.695 Not in 00:29:54.695 --> 00:29:55.815 general, read the book first. 00:29:55.815 --> 00:30:00.855 Book fan. So reading... I like the movies, but I've never been good at reading those. 00:30:00.855 --> 00:30:05.255 Read the book first always. K. K. New Hunger Games movie coming out November. 00:30:05.415 --> 00:30:07.815 I did not like the first Hunger Games book. 00:30:07.815 --> 00:30:08.615 Read the book first. 00:30:09.170 --> 00:30:12.930 That's the only bad Goodreads review I've given. Really? 00:30:12.930 --> 00:30:14.050 The first Hunger Games book? 00:30:14.050 --> 00:30:24.450 Yeah. I think I'm very... This will not shock you, I feel like, but I didn't like that I was reading this whole thing, but I wasn't given the reason for why the government had come to be the way that it was. 00:30:25.445 --> 00:30:27.205 That's what these prequels are about. 00:30:27.525 --> 00:30:29.765 That are currently coming out? Mhmm. Okay. 00:30:30.245 --> 00:30:42.500 Read the books first. Alright. So the fourth one is, essentially, is that Peter Peter as a representative of the whole apostles. It was not specifically calling Peter out, but really 00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:44.660 all of you guys Yeah. 00:30:44.660 --> 00:31:00.685 Which is kind of where you were a little bit at first. Yeah. But I kept pressing you and then you kept, no, I guess not. I guess it is I guess it is Peter. And so he's kind of a representative and he's kind of maybe like the committee chairman, but he's not the boss. 00:31:00.685 --> 00:31:13.700 I think I initially was thinking that because like, surely God or Jesus wasn't essentially saying, like, unless Peter kicks it off, no church will come to be, so you better make it. 00:31:13.700 --> 00:31:16.900 Everything has to have Peter's blessing and has to be under his purview. 00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:20.865 Yeah. But, like, if he wouldn't have done it, I assumed someone would have started Yeah. 00:31:20.865 --> 00:31:45.370 It was something they were all doing together, and they would have team meetings, and he's the team captain. I guess there's a difference between being just a player on the team, the team captain, the coach of the team, and the owner of the team. Right. And kind of where in all of this does Peter land? And so this is kind of the Orthodox Church's view. 00:31:45.370 --> 00:31:52.035 Hey, Peter's pretty awesome, but we don't have to fall under the authority of a pope. 00:31:52.035 --> 00:31:53.795 Like the Eastern Orthodox. Okay. 00:31:53.955 --> 00:31:59.075 Right. After the the great schism, 1053. Right? 1054. We have to keep keep... 00:31:59.075 --> 00:32:12.700 We're to keep rehearsing all these things. And so, yes, there there needs to be some sort of succession of authority. But we don't believe in this singular pope. Right. 00:32:13.260 --> 00:32:36.980 So the first category, which I guess we could say is the Catholic category. Okay. Did they do they always inherently believe that... I don't know if this is... You're just saying this with Martin Luther's critique, but that they have the authority to make tradition just as divine, I guess, as scripture? 00:32:39.620 --> 00:32:42.020 I'm trying to figure out if I'm gonna answer that question right now. 00:32:42.100 --> 00:32:43.620 You can punt it if we need So 00:32:45.460 --> 00:33:03.995 how this doctrine evolves over time, we will we will we will see. This will be a significant part of our journey, at least for the first fifteen hundred years of us talking. Yeah. Kind of what what does this mean? Like, when did this doctrine become fully formed? 00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:23.005 Right? I mean, I don't think it was in that. I would be really surprised if an honest if an honest Catholic historic historical theologian said, yeah, at that moment, they had a fully developed understanding of Peter's leadership and papal succession. 00:33:23.725 --> 00:33:25.245 Compared to, like, years later, 00:33:25.245 --> 00:33:30.045 As how they did with as with a lot of church doctrines, it evolved. It evolved over time. 00:33:30.045 --> 00:33:30.845 Because I think that 00:33:30.845 --> 00:33:45.660 was But it does get to the point pretty soon, especially... Again, to me, I would say, and we talked about this in the intro, that what we would call the Roman Catholic Church really got its... Its origin date is not here at thirty three AD 00:33:45.820 --> 00:33:46.700 Of, like, what we think of 00:33:46.700 --> 00:34:00.925 the Roman Catholic like three twenty, three twenty three AD post Constantine and the establishment of kind of this blend of church and state. Everything that we understand the Roman Catholic church to be 00:34:01.330 --> 00:34:02.370 A little later. 00:34:02.370 --> 00:34:19.995 Is comes from that. And you see it you see it... We'll see it developing as the Bishop of Rome becomes kind of the the team captain amongst all the bishops of all the other areas. The bishop of Rome starts to have... He kinda becomes the team captain Mhmm. 00:34:19.995 --> 00:34:23.355 And it becomes fully formalized in the three hundreds. 00:34:23.355 --> 00:34:23.755 Okay. 00:34:23.755 --> 00:34:39.740 And so I think that that point, it was fully formalized that the Bishop of Rome is kind of the Bishop of Bishops. Yeah. That then will ultimately, we call that the Pope. Okay. And then we retroactively look back at it and say, Actually, this has kind of been happening all along. 00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:58.100 Okay. And it goes all the way back to Peter and this doctrine gets put together. But then it does begin to develop to where we end up today, which is the Pope is infallible when he speaks on behalf of the church. Ex cathedra is what that is called. 00:34:58.100 --> 00:34:58.740 Okay. 00:34:58.820 --> 00:35:04.660 So if the Pope puts out a tweet, and he did recently, Hey, capital punishment's bad. 00:35:04.660 --> 00:35:06.100 That's infallible? 00:35:06.100 --> 00:35:09.700 No. That's just a dude the Pope talking. 00:35:09.700 --> 00:35:10.100 Okay. 00:35:10.875 --> 00:35:37.340 But if he were to put out a papal decree, and there are certain things and they have certain processes by which this way, he puts it out and he creates this church doctrine in his official role as pope. This is the church talking. This is true. Then that is that is on equal footing with the Bible. Okay. 00:35:37.340 --> 00:36:08.255 What any particular pope says at any given moment has weight But not the same. But is not the same. You don't take everything from the pope's Twitter account and staple it to the back of the Bible. But when these major councils are held and these papal decrees are put out in this very particular format, that again, it's developed and changed over time, there are certain areas in which when the pope speaks, he speaks with the same authority that the scriptures speak. 00:36:08.255 --> 00:36:20.815 Because I think that was my question or comment on saying, like, you being the leader of our church doesn't mean, like, things that you're saying is an addition to scripture, but it doesn't make it scripture. 00:36:21.170 --> 00:36:31.570 Right. And it's the same thing. Same thing with the pope for most of the time, but occasionally, he will speak with the authority that is on the same level of scripture. 00:36:31.570 --> 00:36:37.655 But I would say you describe the Bible and you help illuminate the Bible, but you're not the Bible. 00:36:37.655 --> 00:36:38.775 Right. But... Yeah. And... Yeah. 00:36:38.775 --> 00:36:48.295 And but and... But you could imagine, like, okay. Well, then... And then there's the things that we put on our website, like our statement of faith. This is what we believe. 00:36:48.375 --> 00:37:07.585 Mhmm. This is this... You know, when the Pope does that, when he's just talking about what he believes to be the implications of what we believe, that's one thing. But when he comes out and says, This is what we believe, That's true. 00:37:07.905 --> 00:37:09.345 And nobody could go against it? 00:37:09.345 --> 00:37:11.665 No. No. I mean, you can, 00:37:11.665 --> 00:37:14.225 but that But you wouldn't be in church you a parent. Okay. 00:37:14.225 --> 00:37:16.065 Right? So because I feel like 00:37:16.065 --> 00:37:21.630 at our church, there could be disagreement, but you're still in the church. 00:37:21.630 --> 00:37:25.150 There are certain things that you cannot disagree with. 00:37:25.150 --> 00:37:25.790 Mhmm. 00:37:26.590 --> 00:37:33.085 But we believe those things... We'll be talking about those things over the course of the next several weeks here on the podcast. 00:37:33.085 --> 00:37:34.925 Those You said next seven years. 00:37:35.005 --> 00:37:46.045 That make that make that make the church the church. Yeah. There are certain things you can't disagree on, and that authority comes from scripture. But... And he's like, well, there's a lot of different views about what the Bible says. 00:37:46.045 --> 00:37:51.890 And so that's why it's really important for us to be connected to this larger historical movement. The things that 00:37:52.370 --> 00:38:00.290 So initially, at the very beginning, it was to protect orthodoxy. Like, was that putting it all under one leadership? 00:38:01.825 --> 00:38:20.070 It is it is an administrative function Mhmm. To make sure we're all connected and then also to guard the orthodoxy. Okay. And and so then, that that is kind of how that has developed to where now they they... The pope can speak with this authority, which gets us what you're talking about with Martin Luther. 00:38:20.150 --> 00:38:27.590 You have taken your traditions and put them on the same level as scripture. Mhmm. And some of these traditions are actually wicked. 00:38:27.750 --> 00:38:27.910 Mhmm. 00:38:28.125 --> 00:38:38.685 And those need to be done away with. And we need to get back to there is only one authority. Yeah. And so I don't know that he would have done away with the administrative and executive functions 00:38:38.925 --> 00:38:41.245 Mhmm. Of the pope But had 00:38:41.245 --> 00:38:53.620 a lot of comments on how was with a pope can determine new things that are either not in Scripture or contradictory to Scripture. 00:38:53.620 --> 00:38:54.020 Right. 00:38:54.020 --> 00:39:07.575 The Scripture is our final authority on what is true, while the pope may be the final authority on administrative efforts, executive functions, he's not the ultimate arbiter of truth. The scripture is the ultimate arbiter of truth. 00:39:07.575 --> 00:39:14.960 Okay. So at this point in Matthew, do you think they're like, what's a church? 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:31.115 No, it was a word. It would have had an intuitive. What did it mean? It would have felt like, and Abigail, I mean, that was really cool. And and and and and the movement I'm building You're gonna keep it going? 00:39:31.115 --> 00:39:41.120 That's what we're... That's what it's gonna be about. It would've felt like a a gathering, like a calling out a gathering. Like, they they they were already kind of a they were already kind of a a church. 00:39:41.120 --> 00:39:41.600 Mhmm. 00:39:41.600 --> 00:39:51.280 They were a a group of people who were called together to to do this thing. Yeah. They were they were a church. Okay. And they're trying to get followers and people. 00:39:51.520 --> 00:39:56.515 And so, you know, the the word church has come to mean something very specific now, but 00:39:56.515 --> 00:39:57.075 it's like... 00:39:57.075 --> 00:39:59.235 But, yeah, it can be just like... Just think movement. 00:39:59.235 --> 00:39:59.475 Okay. 00:39:59.475 --> 00:40:02.835 And I'll... And then then that... And that's... Bro, that's what the movement's about. Right? 00:40:02.835 --> 00:40:04.355 That that would have kind of been the 00:40:04.515 --> 00:40:04.915 Okay. 00:40:04.915 --> 00:40:16.560 The feel for that. Okay. Well, here we are, kind of our first thing. We've talked about one passage that even really weren't even in church history yet. This is just really kind of pre... 00:40:16.560 --> 00:40:19.600 And and I... This is probably gonna be one of the longest podcasts that we've ever. 00:40:19.975 --> 00:40:20.775 You think so? 00:40:20.775 --> 00:40:24.535 Yeah. So we've we've been we've been at this a while. Okay. Okay. I'm just saying I don't... 00:40:24.535 --> 00:40:29.495 We're gonna... I'm a I'm a have to we're gonna have to we're gonna have to talk about pacing. Nah. Nah? We're just gonna go. 00:40:29.495 --> 00:40:30.375 Let it flow. 00:40:30.375 --> 00:40:31.975 Okay. Alright. Flow. It's flow. 00:40:31.975 --> 00:40:55.425 Because I'll tell you, there's just a lot of really cool stuff here, especially early on. There'll be certain centuries that we just kinda skip past, but but... I mean, I think we'll definitely spend at least a full episode on Acts fifteen two, the council of Jerusalem, because that has a whole lot of implications. It's gonna be several weeks before you even get to what technically is church history, which is stuff that starts after the Bible. But, anyways, we're setting the foundation here. 00:40:55.425 --> 00:41:03.840 Yeah. And, really, this is what you believe about this passage has significant implications for 00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:05.040 how you worship, 00:41:05.040 --> 00:41:22.635 how you worship, what kind of church you is is or is not appropriate, what makes something a church, what gives something authority and has been one of the major dividing points in two of the major schisms in history, the great schism in the ten hundreds and the Protestant Reformation in the fifteen hundreds. 00:41:22.635 --> 00:41:28.075 Was like you need a bigger word than major. Right. Because it's like huge Yeah. 00:41:28.075 --> 00:41:34.030 Dividing. This while it it is not something that you're thinking about at all in your day to day. 00:41:34.030 --> 00:41:34.510 Right. 00:41:34.750 --> 00:41:49.465 Your interpretation of this is most definitely gonna put you in one of the three larger camps of churches today, Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant. Right. So anyways, I hope you're enjoying this. We are. We we love it. 00:41:49.465 --> 00:42:06.560 Like, Abigail loves it. So I hope... Thank you as always for joining us, and we will come back. We'll start talking about the kind of some key developments in the book of acts that helped us understand kind of what the church is and how it came to be. And thank you, Abigail, for being here. 00:42:06.560 --> 00:42:08.000 Maybe next time we come back, 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:31.160 the flies won't be here. See y'all next time. Thank you for listening to the Cultivate podcast. Our hope is that you are taking steps to go deeper in your faith, that you're asking big questions and you're looking for answers. We hope that we can be a resource for you through our podcasts and any other way that we can help you. 00:42:31.160 --> 00:42:37.240 You can find all our episodes anywhere that you can find podcasts, including YouTube. And again, thank you so much for joining us.