0:00
I wanted to change the dailies because we had daily daily meetings every day and I didn't want that I want to have
0:07
like okay let's the dailies let's be written like hard check-ins uh written check-ins on Slack
0:15
and a few people a few people people on the team who didn't like that
0:21
I tried to explain um that um always my point of view is okay let's
0:27
Let's do an experiment if that didn't work for the whole team we can go back
0:33
so that was my first like assessment of experimentation with the team right the
0:39
team was maybe at some point somewhere up opposed to change a few things but uh
0:45
when I put the site of less Lewis fragmentation they started to embrace
0:51
more the the the to adapt to change or try new things
1:01
Shapers and Builders a show about better ways to deliver great software products
1:07
today I'm speaking with Juan visharejo CTO and co-founder of new linga an
1:13
online language learning platform before founding new linga Juan founded
1:19
cindotina a subscription service for Fitness classes which was acquired by
1:24
Jim pass in 2018. this conversation is part of a series about companies that
1:29
use shape up a delivery framework originally created at Basecamp if you've never heard of shape up check the show
1:36
notes for a link to the video shaping in a nutshell by Ryan Singer former head of
1:42
strategy at Basecamp and author of the book shape up stop running in circuits
1:47
and ship work that matters in our conversation Gwen and I dive deep into
1:52
how he's introduced Shape Up via sequence of small steps and small wins how to protect the team's Focus how to
2:00
help people move from the Builder to the shaper side and the role of what fun
2:05
calls full stack designers at new linga Juan has been a co-host of two meetups
2:11
for The Shape Up practitioners Meetup with me recently and he has generally been an incredibly active and helpful
2:18
member of the shaper Community I'm very excited for you to hear what Juan had to
2:24
say foreign
2:31
thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today before we get into shape up and all of
2:38
that um I wanted to ask you to if you can please describe just briefly kind of the
2:43
Arc of your career and how you got where you are now okay perfect I will try to
2:51
be brief but maybe it's a little bit long story but I
2:56
started I study software engineering
3:01
um I changed my career in the middle because I started studying
3:06
electronic engineering but I liked software better and when I started to programming in Ruby or try some high
3:16
level languages that you kind of fall in love with them and electronic engineering aspect was more like
3:23
um to low level and that's why I kind of started growing my career in software
3:30
engineering nearing my background is mostly a developer and then started
3:35
working for different companies for mostly software factories that they on
3:42
the side of Consulting um having have like now it's like 14
3:48
years of experience in the in the industry um
3:53
I worked as a freelancer also mainly working as a remote worker for different
3:58
uh as a freelancer Consulting and but then I started to my own business with
4:06
some Partners we called it sin routina we well we build our own startup it was
4:13
mostly a Marketplace for uh um Fitness access as a subscription
4:19
based similar to what is now gym pass or class
4:26
pass we under selling that company we we had
4:32
an acquisition by jimpas it was very good for us we started working
4:37
with them we stay for them with them for two years and that was on 2018
4:44
[Music] uh the the acquisition and then to 2020s
4:52
just before the the pandemic at the end of 2019 uh I started another startup
5:00
another company for for us it's called new linga uh where
5:06
well we started growing a lot we also is like language learning solution for uh
5:14
B2B for B2B Market we offer language learning Solutions and
5:20
Nexus to language learning teachers with English Portuguese and Spanish for the
5:27
employees of of a company so they can have private tutors
5:33
and where we are building all the software the operations all the distribution and Commercial side we are
5:39
kind of fifties employees now
5:46
how do those 50 split across uh kind of the engineering side the product org and
5:51
other functions the areas is a commercial style
5:56
I I I'm I will say that half and half half is on the supply side and half on
6:02
the demand side from the the distribution the commercial side uh selling and and
6:09
um account and client success but on the
6:15
what I call the demand side the sorry the supply side or the production side is called we have operations and on the
6:23
product team the product area we have like um we have 10 people right now uh let me
6:32
I will check it but it's a 10. we are like um
6:37
as I always say what we cannot build right now we kind of Supply that with a
6:43
human power right with people executing things on there on the on the system uh
6:50
manually executing some stuff we call that operation but
6:55
and of course we want to the whole development team want to build things
7:02
and automate the stuff so the operation team doesn't scale in the
7:08
same way of the the whole operation right the whole business
7:13
as a scale scalable company one thing I kind of want to make sure is that when
7:18
people hear your story that they can kind of in their head compare to themselves how similar is where you are
7:26
with new linga to to where they are in their company and so what you've said is
7:32
you you are about 50 in total uh then 10 on the kind of product side and
7:38
um and the company was founded in 2019 would you still call yourself kind of
7:44
early stage startup or how would you how would you kind of Describe the life cycle of the company right now
7:50
is an early startup in terms of the the the business size we have
7:57
um one one million ARR mostly near right at that so in kind of that we are
8:04
we are an early startup but our goals this this year as same as other Serum is
8:12
to aim for profitability and we are going for
8:18
um a break even in a few months so that's okay we are we want to be a
8:25
owner of our own domain and in terms of our of our own future in that way so we
8:32
can that's we don't need external funding in order to keep the operations
8:37
right and keep on growing of course growing will be a little
8:44
slower but the the objectives are are
8:49
those and we kind of want to keep pursuing this business because we think
8:54
there's a good opportunity nice sounds good fingers crossed
9:00
you mentioned shape up so why don't we kind of get into that um perfect and to kick things off there
9:06
I wanted to ask you how did you get into shape up and what were your first encounters with it what was your initial
9:14
reaction Maybe well I was a big follower of base camp
9:19
um from the early sign albinois
9:25
below and I was reading a lot about um well I'm a ruian rails user from
9:32
range 3 right so I'm very fan of rails
9:38
and also Ruby um so the thing is that um when I saw
9:47
I also very fond of some of their philosophies I try to to hire managers
9:54
of one and try to to have small teams uh
10:00
very streamlined me as an entrepreneur an entrepreneur and and Builder I was a
10:06
I had a very good
10:12
Knowledge from what I need to do from a broad idea to ship it right
10:18
but when I were when we were writing epics for scrum and planning the thing
10:25
is that when I delegated I wanted to delegate those in into the development
10:30
team because as a very early startup I wanted to keep on building things right I have more the
10:37
more productivity was on my side because I couldn't I had the business I have some ideas from design in terms of
10:45
um interactive design or Flow Design and also I have technical knowledge for
10:50
implementing it so I wanted to keep on doing because if I become full manage I
10:57
my the productivity of the whole team will be will go down
11:02
and it wasn't working like that because when I delegated some epics on some of
11:08
my raw ideas for the development team of for each of the developers they were
11:13
just constantly asking me things right because the the idea wasn't shape the idea if we even was in frame at least it
11:21
was okay we want to do this okay that's the they use the
11:26
the user story right or the Epic story and the developers should write the the I I was expecting on that side to
11:34
developers to write user stories or at least help them write their user stories in terms of their
11:40
um but it it wasn't enough right because they would keep constantly asking me okay okay I did this I did this and now
11:48
what's the decision about this what's the decision about that um maybe because our Hiring Our hiring
11:56
budget wasn't high enough I had I was they were very oriented product engineerings but
12:04
they still once were some they didn't have too much experience on some side so
12:10
they were asking me also some technical aspects I didn't matter about the technical aspects because I can help
12:16
them and and we do some we try to work with pull request and review stuff and
12:21
have a common knowledge but there was some struggle in terms of um that I didn't have enough time to
12:29
delegate I would become in full manage and it wasn't working as expected in
12:35
terms of um in terms of it was being demanded all
12:41
the time I didn't like that and that was a pre
12:47
2019 it s second quarter of 2020. by that time I'm sure you must have
12:53
heard already of of shape up or the early kind of ideas floating around right
12:59
in various block articles exactly um so so what did you do
13:07
I wanted to change the dailies because we had daily daily meetings every day and I didn't want that I want to have
13:14
like okay let's the dailies let's be written like hard check-ins read and check-ins on Slack
13:22
but let's stop doing some daily meetings synchronous and on that I put that on
13:28
the retrospective for me this one wasn't working and if you if you put people on the team
13:35
who didn't like that didn't like that proposal for from my side I tried to explain
13:42
um that okay my my always my point of view is okay let's
13:48
Let's do an experiment for the these two sprints if someone if that didn't work
13:55
for the whole team we can go back nothing is written on the song
14:01
um so that was my first like assessment of experimentation with the team right
14:06
the team was maybe at some point somewhere up supposed to change a few things but uh
14:12
when I put the site of less Lewis fragmentation they started to embrace
14:18
more the the the to adapt to change or try new things
14:24
um because the the these people were coming from also from other companies that do
14:30
very buy the book scrub right and when I wanted to introduce shape up
14:36
I also um try the same and we have like to develop three Developers
14:45
and to designers at that at that time so what I the scrum was the spring was two
14:54
weeks per Sprint and what I did was to propose
15:01
to propose a three weeks per Spring right let's do three weeks per Sprint on
15:07
that side let's try it and once I have once I have that set and
15:14
the people were comfortable okay we have three three whisper Sprint what I did
15:19
was to try one developer and one one on the next
15:24
Cycle One developer and one designer to work as a shape up to a method like a
15:32
proof of concept separate like an experiment and
15:38
um for of course Shape Up says okay we can do an appetite we can do cycle of six
15:46
weeks but I didn't care about that I think okay I I took the the appetite or the this
15:54
this weak side the number of weeks per cycle can be changed because it's not
15:59
written on Stone it depends on the the projects that you have so I understood
16:04
that I understand that the the that was on my cell phone how to how much do I
16:11
want to bet on the projects and I say we can do some projects like
16:17
three weeks so we can I don't have to change that too also for the whole team
16:25
and so that's why I started to shape a project I tried some three I I say okay
16:32
let's do three weeks plus one right it's one month on that side and well
16:40
that when well the project the the pressure with one smoothly and the team
16:47
the the team was very happy to deliver something I was very comfortable
16:54
because what changed in that project um what I think that project proof is
17:01
that okay during the weeks during the cycle this proof of concept cycle
17:08
I had the team I still helped the team and and and be with them with some uh
17:14
help them with some requirements but I was helping them
17:19
mostly on some technical aspect on how to solve some things in the technical way because I was cto2
17:25
but I didn't but but that those uh those
17:31
problems that I have wasn't blocking problems that they could continue or or or doing some work they were just
17:38
helping them in terms of quality of the output quality of the software but I
17:43
didn't have to be on them mostly every day or maybe on demand about uh
17:50
decisions about the business of decisions about the flow decisions about the interaction decisions about the what
17:56
the user is expecting in some parts because it was written and it was clarified on the pitch and now it's
18:02
called package but now on the pitch um and and that's what I it made me a clear
18:09
okay I I can help them from the technical side I like to be on them I can also
18:16
immerse here it's Morris synchronous because we do some porriguez and we can write them there
18:22
but I don't need to um to kind of uh
18:29
how do you say go into the rather into the rabbit hole
18:34
every time on during the cycle right that was what myself and the team really
18:40
liked about Shape Up so just so I make sure I get uh get it right what you
18:46
mentioned was um kind of this move from two week Sprints up to three week
18:51
Sprints and in that Trend and then you kind of also split the team where you
18:58
kind of created these cycle teams these kind of shape up teams of one developer
19:04
and one designer and in that process where you also removing yourself as an
19:10
active contributor in that in this when you were still working with scrum I
19:16
assume you were kind of actively working on tickets yourself and that changed in the process as well
19:23
I didn't have to help them what should we do right because the what you will do
19:28
was already was defined on the pitch before during scrum I was I was in the
19:35
the answer to the question what should we do had to be answered mostly I would say
19:42
every day but two or three times per week I that answer what should we do now
19:48
what should we do now what's being answered every time and constantly on demand and and that's that's uh that's
19:55
very very difficult if you want to think about also the other projects I don't know the
20:01
other problems that appear on the on the on the business side on the software side um and plan what should we do next right
20:08
okay now we are working with this but what are we going to work next
20:14
and I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't think about that because I was on Always On Demand about what
20:21
should we do now how did you justify to the team
20:26
um that you wanted to kind of move to three week Sprints and pull yourself out
20:32
of kind of daily uh weekly questions about what what do we do did you mention
20:39
shape up as a as a thing to the team at that moment yeah yeah I I mentioned
20:45
shape up to the to the team some I I think I like to experiment with new things to try new things in terms of
20:52
um the process right and then okay we are working with this process what can
20:58
we improve and the retrospection also help that to acknowledge and know about the team how the process was working
21:04
and I think on on that side I think there the the retrospectives helped me in order to
21:12
introduce to the team their exclamation because that was a
21:19
Moon as I said and I introduced that it was a safe space for us to talk what was
21:24
not working and having this experimentation
21:31
view or mindset said on the team before because I
21:37
changed the dailies I propose change the dailies and the and the team the team knew okay yeah this
21:45
experimentation went good okay I think those that side
21:51
uh maybe I with that perspective I gather
21:57
more trust as a leader for the team because leaders we need to be we need to
22:04
be trusted as a team and propose and bring safety in those in those terms hey
22:10
because so I I sense that the team was having some struggling sir okay this is
22:15
going to change and what if it doesn't work will be we will continue doing that because I think some companies maybe
22:23
just impose some things and if they don't the team is is in conference however with that they just keep keeping
22:29
doing that right right uh but I I I clarify with the team hey
22:35
with changing the dailies if it doesn't work we go back uh if or or if it
22:42
doesn't work let's know what did it what didn't work and let's fix that
22:47
I'm always fond of this kind of uh field feedback loop from the process and rate
22:53
your iteration uh not only with the product but the whole company and the whole processes and that was one main
23:03
point that I gained trust with the team and when I propose shape up and they say okay let's try it
23:09
so you kind of you you built up to it uh you got the team used through these
23:14
little changes exactly to kind of a to a bigger maybe similar to the
23:20
to the myth or the the the story of them told in a in a
23:27
in a stop that is being boiled right you kind of turn the heat a little bit
23:35
um slow so it doesn't feel that the change was
23:41
from one moment to the Earth quick quickly just not with the outcome of uh
23:46
kind of an untimely no of course of course this cotton is trying to this outcome is trying to be better for the
23:53
whole team the process and The Business so before when we spoke um you also
24:00
mentioned to me that you went to the I think it was called the shape and ship
24:05
Workshop or I I don't remember uh but it was in 2020 in Chicago right at the base
24:11
camp box no I I wasn't there I I wasn't there I I always
24:16
read all them I really all the stuff that Ryan wrote I
24:22
I saw all the videos including the one from Christopher Alexander and
24:28
introduced me to Christopher in Center that I really like pattern languages and and a Timeless way of building and I
24:36
kind of focus focus just every day I try to
24:42
so maybe I saw the videos multiple times the the how we work videos uh that were
24:48
like different steps I saw it multiple times and trying to understand the principles before that because
24:56
previously I knew also the the whole process I knew
25:02
I like to read a lot right and I knew the processes um of software building from scrum to
25:10
kanban this more agile latitudes
25:16
I needed I immune from practice from I needed them from experience working in
25:22
this zone for factories or consultancies but beef
25:27
just when I was on sin rutina at the end of sin rutina and also starting new
25:33
linga and we wanted to hire more people I I I wanted to get into the rip right about this whole
25:41
new software building stuff and I started to read in a lot of books like
25:47
kanban in action or or other books that are from for scram actual coaching and
25:56
and getting into a video about that so when I used to start learning about Shape Up and the videos on how we work
26:02
from Ryan and Basecamp I got into I was mapping the principles right
26:11
I I was okay some principles are from come from the
26:17
Toyota production system and Lynnway and and it's building introduce some
26:24
principles new principles but some of the stuff is
26:29
still there from the Azure perspective uh way that I think and
26:36
what I the the course that I made with Ryan was the hands-off course that was
26:43
really also very insightful for for us in order for the transition between okay
26:48
we have the pitch and then
26:55
the team that would have implemented the delivery team again how do they start how do we
27:03
negotiate some things that didn't appeared in where
27:09
previously solved on the on the shaping sessions on the shape up so that hands-off
27:17
worship was very was very interesting for me okay I wasn't aware of that it was a
27:25
virtual worship that Ryan made um I want to kind of I want to switch
27:31
gears a bit and get into some deep Dives um but before before we do that I want
27:39
to just quickly fast forward to kind of to the setup you have now so uh if you
27:46
could just run quickly through kind of the the cycle length you have now how
27:51
you do cooldowns or ramp UPS um the team set up in the cycle teams and and just
27:57
kind of yeah the the the basic pillars of your implementation now
28:02
I have two squats working on proactive
28:08
projects that is this strategic process and I have one we called it the pivot or
28:17
pivot or the um that is working on reactive things
28:23
and mainly on uh reactive things more small tasks a bag of bug fixing and
28:32
maybe some maybe improvements refund sorts that we we can do some spikings
28:39
Etc it's kind of we have this for each each cycle now we are doing six
28:46
week Cycles because what we change from three to at that
28:54
time we change from three to three plus one three cycle work and plus one cooldown
29:01
then we change to four plus two but then at some time the projects were
29:07
becoming more complex because of us already we have a lot of things built
29:12
and in order of course if you change one things okay we it affects the business
29:19
rule another part and the projects are becoming larger and larger and they say
29:25
okay in order to achieve good quality and and what I sensed was that the team
29:30
with four weeks plus two was kind of they were shipping on the cooldown right and I knew I want that I wanted to be
29:38
able to ship and streamline uh by the fifth week I want them from them to be
29:44
shipped and the six week is kind of okay let's fix some bugs that appear that we didn't
29:51
kind of map and the cooldown are moments for us too
29:57
okay do a retrospective we kind of keep that and then to the retrospective of
30:02
the team we are like 10 people is kind of a small team um
30:07
to be able to manage a retrospective meeting and also we do some
30:16
um refactors maybe some improvements that
30:21
were left from other projects before and also
30:28
um we use this kind of hands of exercise by the end of the cooldown and 30 of the
30:34
next next cycle um I am the one who do do all the shaping
30:41
now after but on this side current cycle I'm
30:48
working with another this with another designer one of the designers of the team but I wanted for him to to be able
30:56
to learn and to be able to to to shape and think uh some things
31:01
and also um I
31:06
I would say that me as having different multiple hats uh sometimes I like to
31:14
to be on the call right and maybe sometimes I when I had to shape some things I procrastinate them
31:20
and and on that way I really like the shaping sessions with other person
31:27
because we are kind of focused on the problem trying to solve and thinking about them thinking about that and the
31:34
business rules in the same or similar way as you do with the purple programming session
31:40
right I see that that way okay a programming for me was very comfortable and I liked working on that because
31:48
two people are working two developers are working in a a problem that is kind
31:54
of maybe hard sometimes or um and if and you are either focus on
32:01
the problem and you know that it's a problem that if you have to do an alarm you will procrastinate it
32:07
because it's kind of okay this is a boring problem or I don't want to do
32:12
that I'm trying with that and if you don't win another person um you kind of
32:18
uh film I I for myself I my sentiments are
32:25
kind of I feel happy when I work I'm working you're boring stuff with someone else
32:33
so in kind of on that way I know I'm not saying that shaping shape shaping session or shaping some stuff is boring
32:40
but I tend to procrastinate them or pay attention to other stuff that is going
32:45
on right and so when I okay let's do this meeting session and when I commit with another person
32:52
I it tends to go better hey I hope you're enjoying the
32:57
conversation I wanted to take a moment to thank you for listening and to let you know about the Shapers and Builders
33:03
job board on Shapers dot Builders yes that's the domain you'll find jobs in
33:10
software development design product management and other roles at companies that work with Shape Up many of these
33:18
roads are remote and teams who use Shape Up generally run at a more sustainable
33:23
healthy and meaningful Pace than the hamster wheel of two week Sprints so if
33:28
you're looking for a job in Tech or trying to find great people head over to the Shapers and Builders job board at
33:36
shapers.builders now let's turn back to the conversation [Music]
33:42
thank you foreign
33:48
how you um how you've been working now with a designer to kind of train them as a
33:54
shaper so you would be the um only shaper anymore and that is
34:00
actually a perfect segue into one of the deep types that I wanted to do with you
34:06
um to take just one step back um the the way I kind of set this up is because
34:11
you've been such an active member of The Shape Up Forum I actually went in and
34:17
picked four of your comments uh which I wanted to kind of Grill you a bit on
34:23
okay and now the order is getting a bit out of line but one of them actually is
34:30
um and let's just pick that one how to help people move from the Builder's side over to the shaper side and you actually
34:39
in this post that you wrote on that topic you said we are experiencing this
34:44
one person a developer of the team started to think more about the product
34:49
and wanted to start shaping my Approach was to ask them to write three major problems or ideas he wanted to pitch
34:56
after that I told him what I suspected would provide more value to the user and he started to write a pitch
35:03
um so it seems like that that is a different story but maybe you can just kind of expand a bit on of course how
35:09
you think about helping people into the shaper role yeah the thing was that
35:16
um well that that developeration with us anymore uh we have kind of um
35:22
um a few was went to work for to another company um because we have some
35:28
uh some of the developers that were working with us went to work from our company to pursue other other projects
35:35
on other uh other learn about other industry went to the financial startup
35:41
and but what I sense on that and then that's a I
35:49
gave them to think about the three prongs I wanted to try and and write some Pitch right and then what I did was
35:59
to um review with them or or maybe do a framing say if a shaping session with
36:06
them or answer some questions and the
36:12
oh so one of the projects [Music] um
36:19
didn't we kind of didn't quite go into that way on the project uh because
36:28
it has a immediate more work to be done and it wasn't better because we
36:34
because we have some other important more important things
36:39
doing that side I will change that um that um how to say that that comment
36:47
I will do in different way I will give them the problem and they will
36:54
shape the things in order for them to solve because
37:01
the first the first step is to in um now after doing the
37:07
after I did the the course on on shaping in real life with Ryan
37:14
um and the on the post he wrote about okay
37:19
Framing and shaping I think the the value change the value of the the
37:28
sorry the value chain of the whole software delivery process
37:34
I kind of have it map in the in the whole in in my whole mind and Ryan did
37:39
perfectly that it's kind of from raw idea you have you pass to framing the
37:45
idea and the output of the framing is just a frame idea with the constraint of a bed
37:52
of the appetite and and on that side okay now we have a
37:58
frame problem right we have the outcome and the context and then after that we
38:04
have the shaping is the shaping process the shipping step
38:10
the shipping phase and that we have we produce a solution that can go with all
38:15
the context on the problem and the app that you have and also sorry the the the the frame the output is also okay who is
38:23
going for us for example is who is going to attack this problem because also the
38:28
shaping changes if some ex some experienced developer and has more
38:35
experience with the domain it's not the shaping won't be the same as if more junior or less experimental uh person of
38:43
the domain it has to work on that so um on that side and the shaping then the
38:49
hands off then the delivery and then a some they cool down again and some q a
38:55
but the thing is that taking a personalized on the delivery
39:02
team and then putting to work on some uh
39:10
um to think about some problems uh I think will be a very
39:16
a very long jump for the them to to do it well because he will jump and skip
39:24
the shaping it will go and Skip and to the framing and the problem right on the
39:29
on this on this on the side they will just from raw idea go to to
39:36
shaping but uh okay they won't think about okay why are we doing this or is it this
39:43
important so in those on that perspective uh what I will do is okay we
39:49
have this Frame problems okay try to shape it and then we review it also what
39:57
I'm doing with now with with this designer is okay we have this problem I frame the problem and
40:03
I don't do this kind of shaping and then we're reviewing we kind
40:09
of meet into the framing set in the shaping session sorry
40:14
I know what we do there is I try for him to provide the answers of
40:22
things about them maybe sometimes I know what we can do in terms of technical
40:27
aspect side on terms of business what I try to do is come up is
40:33
leading him thing before and not giving that solution try to ask him them
40:40
questions or okay and what do you think with that and when do you and
40:45
what what problem does it have right just guide them in a Socratic way or
40:50
kind of that so what you've said about kind of the jump from focusing on
40:57
execution to thinking about what what are the
41:02
problems that we are facing that we in the opportunities we could be working on that that is a big jump that makes a lot
41:08
of sense I'm just wondering can you is there an example you can share of kind
41:14
of the the output of of a project when it was at the framing stage versus how
41:20
it looked at the shaping stage I I have some some templates that we kind of work
41:28
in in that way so um it's very now it's very easy for for a
41:35
person to no no at least for the okay what type of the
41:40
things underneath for the pitch right and they um how to solve them have the answer but at least they will know what
41:47
are they outputs um on the framing what I have is like
41:55
um a template that let me check to give
42:01
correct data um [Music] on the framing was I have now is okay
42:10
before before I for four or three weeks before I we
42:16
didn't have this kind of perfect frame right we kind of of framing
42:22
framing I know say bad Global framing I ID raw ideas that are there and then we
42:28
kind of sometimes framing sometimes now do we we kind of filter them and it says no not
42:35
for now because it's not important but some framing which I try to do
42:41
is to to write that list okay the
42:48
what's the outcome right for for example we have a project that it was for
42:55
um of course we have a private tutors that have some synchronous uh synchronous
43:02
lectures with your synchronous classes and in that way as we are human we are
43:09
person maybe something came up for one of the teacher or the student and they want to reprogram the the class for
43:16
other day and have they had to recover the class right and this is the impression impression we
43:23
are currently working on this cycle of course we have recovery classes but we didn't have a perfect
43:31
[Music] um a perfect flow for them to read to arrange a recovery right for us and we
43:39
didn't have um very trustful data and what
43:45
classes should be recovered and what state those classes were right because you okay we know that this class have to
43:53
be recovered but it was recalled did it was recovered did not did it was
44:00
scheduled for recover because the class was already scheduled but maybe something came up again and they
44:06
couldn't attend and okay of course of course in that way the The Clash will be recovered again
44:13
and this flow and this whole process I know we
44:19
this is what's a very important project this this um and from their raw idea we have is is it
44:27
was okay we need to we have a problem with Rico with the recovery we don't know what if
44:34
they're recovering the classes or not we need to know if the classes can be if
44:40
the glasses are being recovered and give them better tools for the the student
44:46
and the teacher to be able to recover and this was the the outcome that we
44:52
expected them from the the raw idea from recovery classes with hybrid with recovery classes
44:59
what do we want with that okay we want um we want for them to be able to
45:07
acknowledge which classes have to be recovered and in a seamless or flow way
45:12
to be able to gave them a request for send them a request for Recovery to a student or to
45:18
a teacher or maybe of course some person some people
45:26
as you see your teacher on the next week you you go to the next week and the end of the class oh we have this class this
45:33
class that should be recovered oh yeah where can what time can you recover I can I can on this Tuesday at 10 00 am
45:42
okay in part that part of the process we knew
45:47
that okay it doesn't the the teacher shouldn't give a request around the
45:54
platform they already arranged on the on the meeting so we had to give them tools
45:59
for the teacher to already okay I just create the recovery class right now
46:06
so that was one of the the things that were and they were struggling we have
46:12
the request side but we didn't were mapping this thing that happened
46:18
during the the classes not everything has to happen around a platform or a
46:25
software product and and on that side we say okay this will
46:31
be a better tool for them um in that outcome we we say okay this
46:37
this was a problem right they they arranged the classes outside our platform on the meeting on the on the
46:43
lecture um and we didn't game we they don't have tools to just in one click to create
46:50
them um on that on and there's a okay that was
46:55
kind of the problem okay give them a better tool for them to arrange a quick recovery lecture
47:02
and the context okay we kind of uh
47:09
um we're gonna from the context try to give them where do we start this was one
47:16
of where do are we starting with okay do we don't have any we don't have bad good
47:23
data on if the classes are being recovered that was one of the things that we struggle
47:30
um we didn't have um I would say we we already have these
47:37
request for for recovering glass to send requests but it was
47:44
it was needed to be align this new way or this new flow aligned with the flow that was from
47:52
um with the request that was already on the system right how do we map those two things on the flow
47:59
so that was one of the problems I kind of have this template that I got from
48:05
Ryan on the hands of a meeting that is kind of okay impulse
48:10
saying something about what prompted this project and what makes it an opportunity right now what's the the
48:16
impulse of the the the raw idea the current way describe what people do
48:22
today with this project including workarounds and compensating behaviors what they are what
48:27
there's always something that's happening and that you are the not mapping rights when the problem there is
48:33
if the user is still doing work with you is still working with you maybe they are
48:40
solving this in another way or maybe and they have workarounds or kind of
48:46
that and try to think about what's the current way they are doing and the struggle right what makes make
48:53
it clear what goes wrong with the current way or the workarounds what are my what what are the struggles with them
48:58
what is the this workaround or this thing they are trying doing and what's
49:05
problem what problem do we have do they happen now that and kind of
49:11
that's mostly the the context that we wrap from a framing session and they
49:18
um and of course the impulse is is sometimes back up with data in terms of
49:25
that because okay we have this [Music] um this data
49:31
I use we use data for to prioritize the problems sometimes also not to to make
49:39
it the case right and the output of the framing is kind of this now context and outcome with this
49:46
template of input scoring way of struggle the shaping should give you the the
49:53
other thing is of course they and the appetite right we have the appetite also for the frame and we have a framing
50:00
problem frame problem we have all context this contact with the template and the outcome and the appetite
50:06
and then I try to assign the okay
50:11
who on the team are going to attack this sometime because they have more knowledge I try to now I try to assign
50:18
it the the people that have more knowledge on the domain right
50:26
and with this Con with this kind of template uh we go with to a shaping session with
50:33
the designer and they kind of okay now I know what the problem is I know what a
50:40
the struggle is with the current scenario current situation for the user
50:46
now I can I can start working on some solution I can start working thinking about some flows
50:52
I can start work thinking about okay what some constraints because we have
51:00
this kind of a this kind of uh
51:05
part of the side part of the web where the request of this recovery classes
51:12
were going now when shaping the solution um the designer and have to think in the
51:18
shape or have to think okay should we move these requests to other
51:24
part of the navigation should we introduce a new Step previously so we can have two branches okay send a
51:33
request for this recovery classes or create right now a recovery class with for this uh pending recovery that you
51:41
have so and those are ideas that came up once you map okay
51:48
what we have right now is this this isn't working [Music] um
51:53
and we are not and struggling with this sort of thing that we don't have
51:58
um one thing that is kind of connected to what we talked about was I found a post of yours where you were talking
52:04
about the role of designers within shape up and that is the question that I see come
52:11
up um quite frequently and you call you you were talking about something
52:18
um that you called a full stack designer and you compared it kind of to uh to a
52:24
full stack engineer understanding um can you maybe explain how what you call a designer on
52:33
your team kind of what um what parts of the kind of the process
52:39
of product development that entails where does the designer start where does
52:45
it stop um how is the role how are the responsibilities of that role and how
52:51
does it maybe also map to shaping versus building I I'm very
52:58
I'm very fond of designers in in the way Basecamp has their designers in terms of
53:05
they can write HTML and they can write CSS
53:11
um because um they can
53:18
I worked before in some software consultancies on some freelancing that
53:23
they gave me the figma Phi or something like that and it was very high fidelity
53:29
and if they didn't know HTML or say CSS or some kind of how the
53:38
web development kind of works for the browser it's kind of yeah we we cannot do that right and that
53:46
was a struggling moment for me as a developer and also I see that with developers I think when a designer that
53:52
doesn't know their medium um who doesn't know how to implement the medium it's in some ways they and they
54:00
had to be experts on that but they should be able to kind of write that and learn and be able to map an idea
54:08
is it just about knowing the medium or is it also about being able to implement
54:14
the work in what I've seen other teams than call rather a front-end engineer
54:19
for example my designers in in in in in the in our
54:25
development team um in our pro team don't know JavaScript so in that way uh
54:35
in that way they can have an HTML and then they have
54:41
um and they can write CSS very well but they don't they don't are a full
54:47
front-end engineering um I wanted to give a a team as small as
54:54
possible because maybe our budget or maybe a goals or things like that so in
55:00
those ways and I want to be able to uh because I
55:05
that's why one one of the main things about rails is Ruby and rails is that is very
55:12
easy to ship something right because it's everything is stuck on there is it
55:18
has everything every tool that you need for this type to um solve a software problem and in in
55:25
that way I always like you to work with the full stack
55:30
um food stack developers because I don't need a team of two
55:36
um with development skills for two people with this similar development skills
55:44
working on the same project because the notes of communication grow
55:50
exponentially right if two people on the squad are much better than three people
55:58
also I I struggled with that at first we had two
56:03
developers and one designer and will happen on that side is the
56:10
the develop the developers were working very concurrently between them and the
56:16
the designer was kind of maybe out of some decisions because the developers
56:23
um move faster in terms of technical stuff now what what I saw with that is
56:29
that okay I take out one developer and put the developers designer together
56:38
and they have to be able to talk with each other and decide so now the the
56:44
designer is learning more some technical stuff and the developer is learning more
56:50
design stuff we are what I think is that the um
56:58
we tend to stick with what is comfortable for us and for developer it's more comfortable to talk with
57:04
another developer than talking with designer with different skills on different Minds so can you just explain
57:12
briefly what you what a full stack designer yes for you totally
57:17
for me full stack designer is someone who can think about a
57:25
interactions flow to think to be able to think about the
57:31
the flow of of a use case of a pro of of a solution
57:39
with maybe do some breadboarding uh or and think about the the difference
57:47
screens or steps and the affordances that it should have for the
57:53
the user to solve to make progress and also
58:00
to be able to work in a delivery team and in an artistic way
58:09
for for him or her and to deliver a good
58:14
quality in terms of Aesthetics for the for the project
58:20
um and also to be able to interview at least a
58:26
user and be able to know what are the struggle is to know what questions can be asked in
58:33
order for the the user to know uh for the the the team to the pro team
58:38
to know what what should we do or what is this person struggling with so that of course the when you kind of
58:47
have more a general skills or kind of try to map different
58:52
things and it's very difficult to be a specialist in some aspects right but
59:01
I think in the current stage of our product or couldn't stage of the
59:07
business the that level of specialization
59:15
will fill the night the rest of the 90 to 100 percent
59:22
right it wouldn't be too from the they're really eighty percent of the stuff we are
59:29
building can be sold with this kind of um this different full stack skills and
59:35
in a very cost effective way in that sense though if I'm
59:40
understanding you right a designer is spanning the word of a being a shaper which you
59:49
know would be their skills about understanding problems um speaking with users and kind of
59:56
ideating through Solutions on the shaping side and then also because you
1:00:01
mentioned this in the beginning part of a build build a team kind of a cycle
1:00:06
team exactly exactly that's that's for me a full a full stack designer to be
1:00:12
able to map this kind of three Three Hats or three
1:00:18
Circles of skills and and be able to
1:00:25
to think about the solution and try to think at least from the flow to the UI
1:00:31
artistic way so the next thing I wanted to talk to you about was how to protect
1:00:36
the cycle teams from outside distraction our business is kind of we try to provide a full learning solution so we
1:00:42
kind of connect with the meetings arrange scheduling kind of have the
1:00:48
whole editor and content for the for the we have a learning a learning team that
1:00:53
generates the content for giving for giving them for the teachers to give the classes and we have some administrations
1:01:00
part of the platform we have the clients as we give B2B we are a B2B company
1:01:10
um we give the our clients the companies we give them like a port for them to track the how they they the usage is and
1:01:18
to metrics so we have a lot of go a lot of go things going on on our
1:01:24
platform right and if you have a lot of things going on that of course
1:01:32
it doesn't matter if your quality of software is good you will have more bugs because a lot of more is going on and
1:01:39
and those on those side I is I think okay we still have to have some slack to
1:01:46
provide time for be able to solve or track some on the problems that are
1:01:51
occurring on our platform because the our domain uh the main context is huge
1:01:58
uh so in that way that's why I I decided to just split the the in two trucks I have okay
1:02:06
we have strategic problems that we are attacking proactively and plan and we
1:02:11
have reactive problems that are attacked by a pivot developer that
1:02:19
is working on that and it's if it's if he or she has some slack it's okay we
1:02:25
they can work on a refactor they can work on some improvements uh they can do
1:02:31
some spiking for the next cycle and I don't I don't care if they are having some slack and this the main important
1:02:39
problem is that this pivot person should be should change for
1:02:46
for should change for each cycle because maybe it's a boring task to be
1:02:52
continually being done right so if someone is committed
1:02:57
for the whole year to do some tests that it will be boring for him or her so he
1:03:03
will be able to rotate to have this rotation in the pivot uh now in this
1:03:08
cycle and the people cool I mean I guess the team will be
1:03:14
glad to see you also step into this quote unquote boring role exactly
1:03:20
I want to wrap up with some kind of quick fire questions some reflective
1:03:25
questions to you um and the first one I want to ask you is what advice would you give to other
1:03:32
teams trying Shape Up and to frame this um I would say think about
1:03:38
what would you tell Juan who's living in a parallel universe that's kind of off
1:03:43
by three to four years that's you three years ago what would you tell yourself what I
1:03:50
think now about shape up is that um you don't have to take the the book
1:03:57
is just it was one phase of the shape and methodology it was just okay it was
1:04:04
mapping all the knowledge and it was a um a starting point right now the the
1:04:11
other teams that are improving are are trying that are are finding some things
1:04:16
that they didn't map out that's why I really like this uh their the latest
1:04:23
course by Ryan because it's kind of the whole value changes his map and you
1:04:29
don't have to and also important aspect that he did he changed the term of the
1:04:35
rabbit hole into an analogy that he called them a
1:04:40
time bomb that the rabbit holes are time bombs that if you don't that you have to
1:04:47
diffuse if you don't diffuse those time bombs uh previously or before the the
1:04:53
delivery cycle those balls will explode or do you will have to
1:04:58
uh have an anti-bomb team or maybe it's anti-bomb Squad that gather at that
1:05:05
point to take a decision and then one of the aspects of shape up that I I learned through through the time that
1:05:13
it mainly shape up and change in the shaping previously or taking decisions
1:05:21
up front that later that's the main difference from scrum
1:05:27
is that some this some decisions can be should be taken up
1:05:33
front because it will demand a lot of
1:05:39
people to gather for diffuse in these bombs later because some decisions
1:05:45
should be answered with some business perspective some designs perspective and
1:05:50
those persons this those people's maybe aren't available at that time and that
1:05:56
will has a struggle for the deliberative and that's that's why I try to think
1:06:03
okay shaping is about taking the important decision Upfront for the delivery team
1:06:09
to work autonomously it's not to be you can gather those
1:06:14
principles with the book like um the the constraints are
1:06:21
um and the rabbit holes now I I like them better to call them in the fuse time box
1:06:27
um that's why one of them main aspects and
1:06:32
and also when people say that shaping is a natural or like that that is really I
1:06:38
saw sometimes it's like yeah it's the six weeks can be changed you know
1:06:45
you don't have to work on six weeks those those the the
1:06:52
how many weeks do do you have on the cycle it depends on the stage of the
1:06:57
building process you are the stage of the business you are right now or the
1:07:02
what you are building right now and can be changed you can do some three weeks it depends on the projects how much
1:07:09
constraint you you want to put on the projects the the the time is a
1:07:14
constraint for you to design uh the solutions and those can be changed
1:07:22
um that's why the main the main principle the appetite is it's it's decent written
1:07:27
on sound that it should be six weeks and the decisions taken up front are not
1:07:34
for I for not to be Ash hello to be a water fully thing but to think about the
1:07:40
resource allocation later wrapping up now I want to thank you so much for your time and for sharing your
1:07:49
experience your team's experience where can people find you if they want to get in touch and and hear more on your
1:07:55
perspective or exchange ideas with you um well I'm fully on lingering and try
1:08:03
to kind of uh my link and it's it's mostly a lot of things about shape up
1:08:08
and on on Twitter maybe but my Twitter is more
1:08:14
broader ideas and a lot of nothing ideas that I'm very fond of his book and his
1:08:22
work but on LinkedIn mostly I I will I'm working I'm posting a lot of shape up
1:08:28
ideas and I'm uh if someone from Spanish speaking
1:08:35
um Spanish-speaking businesses are trying to do some shape up or work on
1:08:40
shape up I want to kind of gather a community of Spanish-speaking Shapers
1:08:45
that's great then I'll make sure to put your LinkedIn handle uh link to your LinkedIn profile into the show notes and
1:08:52
so people definitely should get in touch there um thank you so so much it was really
1:08:57
great to hear your experience today thank you thank you David for the this
1:09:03
invitation and I hope this helps our people
1:09:08
[Music] there you have it I hope you enjoyed the
1:09:15
conversation with Glenn I certainly did if you like this show it really goes a
1:09:21
long way if you leave a favorable review wherever you are listening to this and to find jobs at companies that work with
1:09:28
shaper like new linga remember to check out shapers.builders yes that really is
1:09:34
the domain thank you so much for listening and I hope you have a great day
1:09:43
[Music]