[00:00:00] Antony W: Welcome to the Grow My Salon Business podcast, where we focus on the business side of hairdressing. I'm your host, Antony Whitaker, and I'll be talking to thought leaders in the hairdressing industry, discussing insightful, provocative, and inspiring ideas that matter. So get ready to learn, get ready to be challenged, get ready to be inspired, and most importantly, get ready to grow your salon business.

[00:00:29] Antony W.: Hey, it's Antony here and welcome to today's podcast. Today is the third and a series of podcasts that I'm doing where I'm talking with people that represent the trade media. I always find that the media representatives have an interesting insight into what's going on in the world of hair and beauty, and many of them also have a multipurpose role, not just as publishers of magazines.

[00:00:56] Antony W.: But also, in facilitating awards and various industry event. In episode 173, which was the final episode of 2022, I spoke with Stacy Sobel from Salon Today to get a North American perspective. And in episode 175, I spoke with Linda Woodhead, owner of the Mocha Group. Which is a publisher of magazines and a facilitator of events and awards in the Australian hair, beauty and barbering space.

[00:01:27] Antony W.: And today I'm speaking with Jayne Lewis-Orr to get a UK perspective, Jayne is the executive director of the Professional Beauty Group in the UK, which amongst other things, published the Hairdressers journey as well as facilitating Salon International and hosting the British hairdressing awards. In today's podcast, we're gonna discuss how the role of the hair and beauty media has evolved in the UK over the last few years.

[00:01:56] Antony W.: The impact that the internet and social media have had on traditional print media and how Jayne sees the future of industry events and awards and lots more.

[00:02:13] Antony W.: So, without further ado, welcome to the show, Jayne Lewis-Orr.

[00:02:19] Jayne L.: Hi Antony. It's so good to be here and thank you so much for asking me. I'm truly honoured. Thank you.
 
[00:02:24] Antony W.: No, it's a real pleasure. I've, been really looking forward to talking to you. I know you are very busy, as you know, all well, as all of us are, but, you know, media people often, you know, have, a lot on their plate and I know that you certainly do. So, thanks for joining me here today. Jayne, let's start off with what I do with most of my guests, which is I pretty much get them to introduce themself by, you know, giving an overview of who they are. So who is Jayne Lewis Orr give us your sort of two minute backstory for our international audience who perhaps aren't familiar with who you are and how you got onto this industry and exactly what you do?

[00:02:58] Jayne L.: Okay. So, I would start that by saying I'm a mom of twins of 21, 21-year-old boys. and as far as the industries are concerned, I've been in them in an extraordinarily long time, which obviously makes me very old. and as we were just having a laugh just now, you know, it started literally as computers were coming online and the world was changing, and we were starting to know what the internet was. so I've worked on Hairdressers Journal, and on a different beauty title, for very many years. So actually 36 years and but took responsibility for Hairdressers Journal. So this is my 25th. This is my silver, do you believe? Yeah, I suppose. took responsibility for Hairdressers Journal Salon, international British Head Awards, et cetera, twenty-five years ago. and. What I'm truly humbled about, is that actually I’ve been able to do every job on my way up. So I started off as an editorial assistant. I became the content writer. I became features writer, features editor, deputy editor group, editor publisher director, and then executive director. So I now have a commercial overview as well as content. But content is still where my heart is.

[00:03:52] Antony W.: Ok.

[00:03:52]Jayne L And very much, Hair focused. Even though under professional beauty group hair, obviously we have professional beauty, aesthetic medicine, world spa, and wellness. I’ve retained the kind of focus on hair, but it has been lovely cause in the last seven years since coming over here. I've been able to get back to, actually, I started on beauty. So to get back to those beauty clients that many of them are still there, very much like the hair industry. And actually I think it's, I feel honoured that I work in an industry where the people are genuinely friends. And I know with there's a number of people that if I wasn't doing this job anymore, they would still be my friends. You know, they came to my wedding. Yeah. they're with you as we always say about our hairdressers. They're with you with good times and the bad times. Yeah. and it's just been brilliant to be part of something that's so much fun but has such great people in
 
it. And I genuinely mean that. I still get excited about going to the British Awards and seeing everybody catching up, finding out what they've been doing, and just, you know, celebrating what is, I think, and I think everybody should think is an absolutely phenomenal craft.

[00:04:49] Antony W. Yeah, definitely.

[00:04:50] Jayne L.: I dunno if that kind of summed it up, but [00:04:52] Antony W.: No, that does.
[00:04:53] Jayne L.: I love it.

[00:04:53] Antony W. Did you start out as a journalist? Was that your original sort of foray into the,

[00:04:57] Jayne L. Yeah, it was. [00:04:58] Antony W. Okay.
[00:04:59] Jayne L.: It was,so I actually, I didn't want to go very different when I left school. I could have gone to university and had the opportunity to go to university, but actually I almost wanted to do it as an apprenticeship. and wanted to start working straight away. And I was very fortunate that, the company that previously owned Hairdressers Journal, actually used to train journalists from every company. So I went through their training program, became accredited journalist did all the basic but while working on the group at the same time. So in effect, I was doing pretty much like doing a hair or beauty apprenticeship. I was doing the day job and doing the studying and marrying the two together. So I started writing new products and then small features and then event reports and, you know, those kinds of things. so yeah, absolutely I was, I'm a journal, a journalist by trade, and then it's been in the last.

[00:05:45] Jayne L.: In the la latter years I suppose, but it's been a while. So since 1997 I've had a more commercial overview of the business, but still very much with a heart in actually checking, reading the content. Yeah. but obviously it's changed very much from when I started. We had a weekly magazine, and we had a monthly beauty magazine. Now we have monthly magazines. but obviously nobody waits for anything anymore. So it's the social channels, it's the
 
digital channels, it's all that immediacy. that's been such a big shift and everyone's had to adapt.

[00:06:14] Antony W.: You know, before we started, recording, we were laughing about, you know, early memories of, I was telling you when I, yeah, when I, you know, used to go to the news agents on the way to work every Friday morning and I'd buy the hairdressers journal and I can't remember how much it cost, but it was it was pennies. I think it was like 12 pence, you know? So that makes me sound old. And then of course, you piped up and said that when you started, you weren't even using a computer. You are using a typewriter. And that is, yeah. That's incredible. Because, you know, hairdressers, we're always talking about, oh my God, the world is changing, hairdressing is changing, the business model's changing. You know, everything's changing. But when you look at the changes that media. Have gone through it is really quite phenomenal. You know, like when you look at the technology, I mean, it used to be you published a magazine. Now it's a magazine. It's events, it's digital, it's awards. There’s so many sort of arms to it. so it, you know, it's incredible basically, the upheaval that you have gone through in your career and the evolvement that you've had, you know, from a journalist right through to the position. Now, just alluded to the fact that I used to get a weekly magazine. I'm not sure if you said this before. Yeah. But obviously it's no longer weekly. how many issues a year now?

[00:07:32] Jayne L.: So Hairdressers Journal is 12 issues a year. So we went to monthly. and you know, it's funny, I still see people and have the odd email from people saying, I still miss going into the news agents and picking it up every Friday morning. but you're right. I think media, it's not even the same set of skills that we trained with anymore. I mean, hairdressing absolutely is changing and technology moves, but you still use the functional skills you learned when you were an apprentice or you went to college with media. . You know, when I did my media training, my journalistic training, it was about writing, proofing, you know, the kind of fundamental skills. Social media hadn't been invented. So writing captions and, you know, clickbait content and they, but those words didn't exist. So it's been, it's you just had to continually learn and, you know, and I don't profess to being, you know, the best on social media. I absolutely have a go much to my boys, absolutely discuss. I have a TikTok account. And I mainly got a TikTok account cause had just journal, have a TikTok account, so, so I can see what's happening. You have to keep going because the world's not gonna stand still. You have to move with it.
 
[00:08:30] Jayne L.: And the move from weekly to monthly, you know, that was a really tough call. It was a hundred and something years, I can't remember how many years it was, 130 years or something of a weekly publication. And you know, it's a big call to, to do that, but absolutely it was the right decision because the world is digesting their media in a very different way. Yeah. And people used to wait for the issue on a Friday to find out who'd won British address with you on the Monday. That doesn't happen anymore. You know, the moment I say those words, it is on social media. Everybody knows no one's gonna wait five days to find out who's one if they're not there on the night. Yeah. And you have to adapt. It's about, you know, and that's the same in hair dressing, isn't it? You've gotta be able to adapt and move and change with the times and actually serve the needs of the, of your readers, users, visitors, whatever. And that's the thing for us, it's about making sure that we are relevant and using the right channels and there are different channels for different content.

[00:09:26] Antony W: Yeah, sure. So, I just wanna back up, you just said something that has shocked me. , did you say 130 years?

[00:09:34] Jayne L.: Oh no. Hairdressers journal is, oh God, you're gonna get me out, 18. I'm gonna come back to that and tell you what it is.

[00:09:40] Jayne L.: Okay. But it is, we had an anniversary, was it 150 years last year? That's me being old, so 145 or 150 years old. Yeah. it's

[00:09:48] Antony W.: Unbelievable. Right. Ok. So obviously that is the longest running trade magazine in the hairdressing.

[00:09:52] Jayne L.: Yes. It's, and I think it's not just in hairdressing. I think we may, we got a letter from the Queen on our 125 years. I think we might be the old, we certainly were, as far as we knew the oldest, trade Magazine still in existence. Yeah. so it's, yeah. I. and you know, I feel I 1892. There you go.

[00:10:13] Antony W.: Okay. [00:10:13] Jayne L.: So we were, it's a,
[00:10:14] Antony W.: I'm not gonna do the math. That's a lot. That's a long time ago.
 
[00:10:17] Jayne L.: It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. And I just want to clarify, I haven't done them all before any.

[00:10:21]Antony W.: Yeah.

[00:10:23] Jayne L.: For anyone pipes up. Sometimes it feels like it, but I haven't done them all but yet. 1892.

[00:10:28] Antony W.:What incredible staying power there is with multiple owners offices .

[00:10:33] Jayne L.: Taking back to that.Yeah, of course. But May the sixth, 1892, and if you think back, that was before photographs, so everything was hand drawn. And we've got the original copy. We've got some of the original copies. Yeah. And it's just fascinating.

[00:10:47] Antony W.: Yeah. Yeah. it's, [00:10:49] Jayne L.: It really is.
[00:10:50] Antony W.: When you used to do a weekly magazine Yeah. Trying to get the content. For that together and printed and out there every week, that, that's a huge call. I mean, I can imagine a monthly magazine is a huge call, but weekly would've just been, you know, a lot of pressure all the time.

[00:11:07] Jayne L.:It's funny you say that because actually in a sense, yeah, obviously it is. If you're producing a weekly, you are never short of information. This industry is never short of news stories, great images, ideas, inspiration. So there's always plenty to talk about and plenty to write about. . In some ways it's no different now. If not, it's harder now in the sense that you are having to produce content 24 7. Because the world doesn't wait anymore. Nobody waits for anything. So you have to be first with the news first with everything. So there is, it's not a case of being able to say, oh, that will wait and go in Friday's issue, or we'll plan that for two Friday. It needs to go now. It needs to go on the right channel and because of social media. Which has many brilliant advantages. You know, it does mean that you are constantly accessible and sometimes if you don't respond immediately. People don't take into account that it might be a Sunday at 2:00 AM UK time. They still want a response. Well, clearly, I mean, we respond as quickly as we can. Yeah. but you know, the news has to be instant. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah. It was it was a pressure get, get putting
 
together the monthly, sorry, the weekly. We always knew what the dates were. You worked those dates and you very quickly get in a, in the mindset of, you know, this is what we need to produce by when, and now that's all out the window. There's no schedule. It's just as it happens, you've gotta do it. Yeah. And there's a lot of it. And also to keep yourself current and relevant, you have to be doing it all the time.

[00:12:34] Antony W.: Yeah. Now [00:12:35] Jayne L.: you can't wait.
[00:12:37] Antony W.:Yeah. Obviously, when you. , you know, took that decision from a weekly magazine to a monthly magazine. A lot of people, and a lot of other magazines in other industries have either faded away completely or they've just become less and less copies. less and less frequent. Do you foresee a day, you know, where there won't be a printed version of the magazine and it'll just be a digital thing?

[00:13:00] Jayne L.: I certainly don't at the moment. The demand for print is still really high. you know, even in the pandemic we, there was only one month when we didn't publish a print issue. And the reason we didn't, and I think it was probably May, 2020. Was because obviously we shut down the world shutdown at the end of, end of March. or May issue would've been going to print in the middle of April, and we weren't actually sure whether printers were gonna be a allowed to go into print post was gonna still be delivered because none of us knew, did they? I mean, it was something that nobody had lived through or experienced. So we did one digital, one digital issue only, and then we went straight back to print. What we did do was then open the digital addition to everybody, so we sent it out to everybody. We made it available to everybody. And conscious that often with address a journal, it goes to the salon, it goes in the staff room, and everybody reads it.

[00:13:53] Jayne L.: So our readers per copy is really high, and obviously no one was in the salon, no one was allowed to be together. so actually we opened it so that I could send it to you if you were running a salon and you could send it to everyone that you worked with, just to keep people up to date. But actually, I suppose what the pandemic did. We had to pivot very quickly. and then we began to do lives every day. That the response to that still to this day, even though the pandemic is fading into a memory, is so lovely. Cause when you go out, you know, at Salon in October just gone, I had people coming up to me
 
saying, we're so grateful that you kept going and you kept the content coming, and you kept talking to us and having people on so that we didn't feel alone. Cause running a business is a lonely place at times. running a b, running a business in a pandemic was terrifying. Because nobody knew what tomorrow was gonna bring.

[00:14:40] Antony W.: Sure. Yeah.

[00:14:40] Jayne L.: And actually having people on who could share the fact that they were in the same struggle, whether they were British address through the year, a smaller salon in wherever. Do you know what I mean? So it just meant that it really fostered that community. And I think one thing hairdressing is a phenomenal community. They support each other and you found people were openly supporting each other on social via the chats on the lives that we were doing. and actually even on the lives, you know, people were asking questions live and it, I think it, it just made everybody accessible and just a little bit reassured, you know, in a time when none of us. The next day was gonna bring, let alone the next week, month, or year.

[00:15:17] Antony W.: Yeah. what is, I think one of the things, as you know, I've spoken to, Stacey Soble at Summit today, and I've spoken to Linda Woodhead, from Mocha in Australia, and I think one of the things that makes Headdresses Journal different to them, Is that I'm under the impression coming, if I'm wrong, that it has a more global reach because I know, I mean, when I first started hairdressing in 1978, I was in New Zealand. We used to get the English hairdressers journal. Yeah. When I had my salons in Australia in the nineties we got the hairdressers journal. Yeah. what sort of global reach do you have?

[00:15:51] Jayne L.: Yeah, we do still have a global reach, probably less so with a print publication now, because people tend to, if it's overseas, they want to get it digitally cause it's much quicker. It's, you know, when it publishes in the UK, they get it straight away. They're not waiting three months, three weeks for Post Australia and no post at all in the UK. So if anyone overseas is watching this, the UK is literally falling apart the minute. I mean, I got a Christmas card yesterday that was sent on the 12th of December. Only taking them a month. Only came about 10 miles as well. So it wasn't like it was an international delivery.

[00:16:20] Antony W.: Yeah.
 
[00:16:21] Jayne L.: So we've actually, we encourage people not to take a print version internationally because of that time delay and the cost and actually, but to do the digital. And if we look at our, stats on everything from our social channels to the actual website to Salon International, the reach is vast. you people are, and I think also because we have some, within the Hairdressers Journal stable, we have some iconic brands of their own. And so people follow the British Hairdressing Awards because they want to know who's won. They want to see the work. and the same with Salon. I mean, you were talking about people watching this podcast. From around the world, you know, we get the list of the countries that people have attended from and I'm, sometimes I'm fascinated cause I'm looking at where it's .Yeah.

[00:17:00] Jayne L.: Cause it's places I've not even heard of. Yeah. but they travel far and wide because I think it's one of those, if you create something that has the appeal and has the right people and the right education, and the right inspiration and the right content. people will come. and I think fortunately, UK hairdressing is still very, is held in very high regard and esteem worldwide and people still want to see the artists and the teams that were born in the UK and make British hairdressing so great.

[00:17:29] Antony W.: Yeah. Well, one of the things that you said before, when I had my salons, which is quite a while ago now, a magazine would arrive, headdresses journal or whatever, and it would be ripped. Yeah. the envelope would be ripped open. It would be out in the staff room. Yeah. People would be pouring over it. Yeah. And so what I wanna ask you about is, and so I very much had that experience and saw that and lived that. Yeah. And were that person. But today very different technology, social media.

[00:17:55] Jayne L.: Yeah. And so absolutely.

[00:17:56] Antony W. The staff room of today, when I go into different salaries. [00:17:59] Jayne L.: Very different.
[00:18:00] Antony W.: I go into the staff room. Yeah. They're all looking at their phone. They're all scrolling through. Yeah. You know, their social media. So what I wanted to ask you about, and I've asked, Stacey and Linda the same questions, is that, do you think that young hairdressers today have lost interest in magazines because they're so focused on their instant, you know, digital, social media platforms that are also totally demographic, uh and democratic is the
 
word I'm meaning. Yeah. They're totally democratic. Yeah. I can get my work out there. No one's going to Yeah. Use it or edit it.

[00:18:32] Jayne L.: Well, people have become brands, haven't they? [00:18:34] Antony W.: Yeah, without a doubt. Yeah.
[00:18:36] Jayne L.: Stylists have become brands in their own right through social media. I think to a certain extent, I think reading magazines is a demographic thing. That said, I get to judge fortunately, lots of industry competitions and magazines, and when you go and they're presenting their mood boards, I recognize the pages that have been ripped out of HJ, the fashion pages that they've used as their inspiration. . So I think it, it depends on the type of hairdresser, it depends on where they, I suppose what they see as their career journey. know, we still have. We still have a good reach. I mean, print magazine is undoubtedly, read more by salon owners, senior stylists and technicians, but it's in the, as you say, it's in the staff room and people flip through it. I mean, I can remember the days back and when we used to have a big recruitment section in the back, but the salon owner would rip the job section out. Because they didn't want the teams to see what other people were offering or the benefits, the salaries that Oh yeah. oh yeah.

[00:19:29] Jayne L.: People used to ring up and say, can you publish it without the recruitment section? No. cause that's what people paid being. And in those days you didn't have an online, you didn't have an online recruitment pla, you know, platform. So, I think it is a generational thing. You know, if I look at my own sons, they consume, although actually one of them still absolutely reads new scientists every week the sprinkler becomes home. He reads it. If it didn't come home, would he read it all night? Yeah, absolutely. cause it, he's interested in it and he'll look at it. So there is a generational thing, divide, I think, on reading magazines. But that said, I think they love the, I particularly the images. And I think that's what many people look for. Cause we only carry exclusive fashion in HJ. It's not been seen anywhere else. they want to see that first. and the lovely thing for us is that people still so desperately want to get their work published.
, Which, you know, which is a lovely. It's lovely testament to us because you, we get fantastic work sent in and they want us to run it.

[00:20:23] Antony W.: Yes.

[00:20:23] Jayne L.: And you know, it's like, I, yeah
 
[00:20:26] Antony W.:Okay. Well, again, that's another thing I'm curious about is that,you know, when I was entering awards and stuff and you know, shooting work and getting it published, et cetera.There was a lot of recognition. There was a lot of big acknowledgment about getting your work in a magazine.

[00:20:44] Jayne L.: Yeah.

[00:20:44] Antony W.: And so these days you have social media and you have people with, you know, tens or even hundreds of thousands of, you know, followers. Yeah.On whether it's TikTok or Instagram or you know, even Facebook or whatever. and so I often wonder, and this sort of links into talking about awards that are people that motivated now. By awards and are, they're that motivated by getting their work published in magazines. When my perspective or my question is that I see that a lot of young people now are maybe just not as interested as what they were, that they would, they're more interested in the fact that, Hey, I published this picture and I got 20,000 likes or something than it being shown in a magazine. what are your thoughts about that? am I onto something or not.

[00:21:30] Jayne L.:I think there will be some people who will absolutely just want to put their workout on social media and that's fine. But it's interesting cause even if we re-share work or we do you know, we'll do a collection of the week. So we'll take one and we use it digitally. They're always really grateful and excited that we published it.We put something up online this week. I had a lovely message from the hairdresser today saying thank you so much for publishing it on your social, on your, you know, on the website and social, it means the world to me. So I think people do still care. I think it's, I think the fortunate thing for Headdresses Journal, and we never take this for granted, is we have been around such a long time, so it's 140 years.

[00:22:06] And actually whether you read it avidly or not, there is a heritage and there's a respect. Now, you know, I never take that for granted and neither the team. We work very hard to make sure that we stay front and centre, we stay relevant. And as we were talking about before that you have to pivot to suit the market. You know, if we were still publishing a weekly print magazine only, it wouldn't exist anymore. Cause that wouldn't be enough for people. You've got to adapt to the times. But I do genuinely think people do still want to get work published because, you know, they, it's affirmation, isn't it? That you've done something really great. and you know, I suppose I would, in terms of awards, I think that, you know, there is no doubt. I, and I'll be honest, I was worried after
 
the pandemic because everybody had been hit so hard, would people still lend, enter the awards, whether that's business awards or British awards and we have record numbers of entries.

[00:23:01] Antony W.: Yeah .Wow.

[00:23:02] Jayne L.: So there is still a, there is still a passion for it. and I think actually if you, when I'm, it's very fresh of mine cause we do a long edit of the British hairdressing Awards, which feels like a lifetime ago, but was actually only seven weeks ago. When you hear, and there were lots of, there were lots of new names winning this year, which is Fab because it's new people and it encourages other people, I think when lots of different people are winning. How much it meant to people to be recognized by their peer group. And I think with that one, you know, we have arguably the world's best hairdressers judge, that event. And you know, it's a brave person that enters the ward, isn't it? Because you are putting yourself out there to be judged. Yeah. In a sense. and you know, it's subjective, what you might like I might hate and vice versa. Yeah. so it's a leap of faith. to put yourself out there.

[00:23:55] But actually I think because they know we're so rigorous about the judging process, you know, the judges are, and they are the, you know, we have previous British judges of the year Hall of fame, industry alumni, you know, the, and we, what's one of the things we've done is let the current year's winners judge because they feel that's an absolute honor. And I've spoken to many of the groups and focus groups. Do you think we should do it all online? And they're like, no coming to that judging day is as good. For some of them it, but for some of them it's better than the night cause they've not got the stress and the nerves because they're just able to interact.

[00:24:28] Jayne L.: And we, you know, we live in a world that lives very much on screen. People still want face-to-face and that personal connection. and you know, it means a lot to people that those not us, cause we don't judge those alumni in that room, think that they're worthy of either a finalist or a trophy. That means a lot to people.

[00:24:46] Antony W.: Yeah. I can remember, the first British Hairdressing awards, at some point in the eighties.

[00:24:51] Jayne L.: Oh, you're one up on me then . Yeah.
 
[00:24:54] Antony W.: And it's evolved a lot since then. I mean, it's big without a doubt. what I was gonna ask you was what is the future? Where do you see awards in five years time? I mean, you know, pandemics, et cetera, excluded. how do you see the awards evolving? You know, because they haven't always been there. Maybe they won't always be there, or if they are, they'll be in a different format. Do you have any thoughts as to how do you think awards events might evolve?

[00:25:19] Jayne L. I mean, we have focus groups, so we have look. We don't sit here in our offices and think we know best. We ask the industry and the audience all the time. What do you think of this? It might be smaller focus groups. We might do big surveys, we might do telephone research, actually ringing them and saying, you know, it could be about salon, could be about the awards, could be about magazine, could be about content. and we absolutely do it with the British Hair Dressing Awards. And we go out to people that have never entered. Because there's no, you know, yet there absolutely is value in asking people that enter all the time and win, but you already know they love the event. . So actually the people you also want to talk to are those that never enter. and as a result of that kind of feedback, we've introduced the trend image award. So it's literally one picture. So,

[00:26:04] Antony W.: Okay.

[00:26:05] Jayne L.: It, there's no, you don't have to produce a collection. It's one image. It's literally one image that you can produce now, it can be part of your British original collection or it can't. You could, you know, you could send one image that you love that you've shot and that can get you in for trend image. we introduce an international category, which is absolutely taken off. So hairdressers from around the world are competing for that international collection of the year title. and we're continually looking at ways to evolve it. and, you know, whether it's, we brought the session category back because when I first had looked, started looking after, after the British, sorry. we had a session category and actually the way it was being judged meant it became impossible to judge because rightly the guys didn't wanna send their books in to be judged because they need their books with their agents so they can get workbook, you know, and I absolutely understand that. but session hairdressing and you'll know this. Many people want to be a session hairdresser and want to understand how to break into film, television, celebrity, whatever.
 
[00:27:05] And actually for those that are doing it really well, it's a phenomenal craft and it is very different to those running a commercial salon who might be nominated fiche and it British was getting a lot of session nominees within it. Which was absolutely fine and still is absolutely fine. We would never change that. You know, the way it works is you are nominated for British Hairdresses of the year. We don't send a list or we don't say we each choose from these people. We ask people to nominate. They nominate three individuals each. That forms a long list that goes back out and then people choose three. They can keep the same, they can change it. And that forms the list of those that have been nominated. but we did feel that session hairdresser of the year. They don't shoot necessarily a collection in the sense that you and I and your listeners would understand as a collection.

[00:27:52] Jayne L.: You know, they might be shooting a collection from Vogue. They might be doing a cover for something else. They might be doing a record cover, a fashion collection. So we reintroduced session last year for the first time in probably 20 years. and what we asked was it was nominated, so it was by nomination and those that were nominated had to send in their eight favourite images from the past year. It could have been, it doesn't have to be one collection. It could be, a cover for Lancome versus a ad for Adidas versus a celebrity shoot for, you know, The time supplement, whatever. Yeah. and those were the images that were judged. So we continually look and I'm genuinely always really open to feedback, about what, you know, and the trend image came about because the lady contacted me on Facebook and said, I can't afford to do a collection. I want something that's, I can just say one imaging and I'd love to be part of it and that's how, and initially we did it with an age limit on it because that's what everyone felt they needed. It's not us making the decisions alone. Everybody said let's put an but actually. There are other people who want to enter, why should it have an eight limit on it so anyone can enter it?

[00:28:59] Jayne L.: You know, cause who's current Hairdressers British of the year can go for trend image as well, if you want. It's entirely up to him. So we, yeah.The other thing that's changed dramatically is everyone's a photographer now and some of them are damn good photographers. You know, everyone's got their iPhone and incredible, and the, you know, the composition and the way they develop their eye. Yes. To take great photographs. It's amazing what, you know, young kids do now with the phone. Whereas, yeah, when I looked at competitions pre-Iphone days and people took their own photographs, it was like, oh, for God's sake, get yourself a proper photographer and do the job
 
properly. Yeah. These days a lot of people are shooting fantastic images just on their phone, which is impressive.

[00:29:37] Jayne L.: Well, their fine the phone cameras are great and also then it makes it accessible for every.

[00:29:41] Antony W.: Yeah, exactly.

[00:29:42] Jayne L.: You know what I mean? You know, you don't have to [00:29:44] Antony W.: have a big budget. A lot of money. Yeah.
[00:29:46] Jayne L.: No, and I think there's a misconception that you have to have a big budget to enter awards. I mean, we don't charge, unlike most people, we don't charge anyone to enter. They, there's no charge to enter. and actually I know people that have shot and one. On a shoot that they pulled together by working with a photographer who was building up a portfolio. , a makeup artist, was doing the same and they went and scouted models.

[00:30:11] Antony W.: Yeah. On the street.

[00:30:12] Jayne L.: And put together a great they street cast models. and absolutely nailed it.Because very much the judging and I, you can ask any of the judges and they're like, they will tell you that I am relentless. It is about the hair. It's a hairdressing competition. It's not about retouching. It's, you know, I mean, obviously the aesthetic is important, but it is about the hair. so. And we will stay true to that. But you know, we continually ask people what they want in the awards, how they want it to change, what they like, what they don't like, and you know, nothing's off limits. We will continue in the way that we've talked about the business already. You have to pivot. To and be agile enough to be able to change and adapt to new ways of working. Yeah. So we're always looking at what we do next.

[00:30:58] Antony W.: Yeah. So, tell me about the business awards, because a lot of our listeners probably don't know that there's, it's a completely separate event at a, on a completely different time of the year. Yeah. and it's still a very significant event in the, you know, British hairdressing calendars. So, tell us about the future of them, where they've come from and what they.
 
[00:31:15]Jayne L.: So we launched the British Hairdressing Business Awards because obviously we had the British Hair Awards, which do, and have done and continue to do a fantastic job of championing the craft of hairdressing. So the technical skills that you need to be a great hairdresser, but actually. in real terms, you can't do with the craft if you can't run a great business. So, and you know, often there's a much, there's a, there's someone behind the scenes that you may not know who is powering those big businesses on, do you know what I mean? Those businesses on. so actually what we wanted to do was recognize reward. The kind of unsung heroes almost. of hairdressing. So, you know, the front of house teams, the assistants, I mean, you ask any salon owner, the people they couldn't go into battle with every day without their assistants, salon managers, business directors. So at every level, we've introduced, and again, adapted, we've introduced Social stylist of the year, so it's not just about. how I post great pictures on my social media. It's how they've grown and developed their business. So they have to give us engagement, conversions, all those kind of things. teams. And it was about recognizing the great business because I think we still live unfortunately unless so now.

[00:32:24] Jayne L.:But, you know, I don't want anybody to say that they're, you know, oh, I'm just a hairdresser. If the pandemic did nothing else, it proved just how valuable hairdressing and the way it makes you feel is to people, not just the way it makes you look. Yeah. and to that point, we launched a campaign, I actually announced it at the British hairdressing Awards, where we're gonna be asking in the UK salon owners, stylists, technicians assist, whoever to just give up a few hours of their time to go to their local college or their local school and talk to the students about the opportunities. that this industry offers because you and I both know what phenomenal opportunities they are.And I don't ever want anyone to say, oh, you shouldn't do hairdressing because anything, yeah. You absolutely should do hairdressing because it can give you a fantastic lifestyle, travel career freedom, like nothing else. And the only thing that limits you in hairdressing, I think, is your own commitment to working hard, continuing to learn, and you know, You can live out your best life in hairdressing, you will work hard, but we all work hard and nothing you don't, nothing's for free. This life is it. So everyone that wants to be successful is gonna work hard. And actually we, so we want to garner the market support, which they, you know, that people are coming forward and say, no, absolutely do. To go and talk to the future generations of hairdressers because we need to make them understand. and their parents understand. , what a great opportunity this industry offers for people who wanna work hard and, you know, live. Go for it. Basically.
 
[00:33:55] Antony W.: Yeah. Unfortunately that is a challenge all over the world. Yes. You know, it's a hairdressing thing. It's not a UK thing or a US or, no, it's not an Australian thing. It's everywhere. Which is, a shame.

[00:34:05] Jayne L.: It's an industry thing.

[00:34:06] Antony W.: Yeah, another thing I wanted to talk to you about is that a very, you know, big part of what you do is events, and particularly, I mean, we touched on this before, salon International and, you know, pre the internet. if you wanted to find out what the latest products were and you know, what the latest tools were and see the best, you know, artists, et cetera, you had to go to these big events and as soon as the internet came along, it started to change and events started to evolve change. They had to, and in a lot of cases they'd become smaller. , what are your thoughts about events? I mean, obviously Covid really made people, I think. I think people were reassessing events anyway. You know, what's the purpose of them? Yeah. And what are they gonna be like? And then Covid has really made people step back and go, okay, what does the future look like in terms of events for both the distributors, for you, for the hairdresser attending, everyone seems to be reassessing them. So what are your thoughts about those big trade shows, those, you know, big, events that they include the shows, et cetera with them. Where do you th see that going?

[00:35:13] Jayne L.: So if you look at, trade shows across different sectors, I'm not talking about her and beauty. and we can plug in through various associations and stuff and what the trends there is no doubt that some industries are having a challenge, in terms of less people wanting to attend, potentially less exhibit. . and it's harder to get people to attend. salon last year was, I mean, you know, you can imagine you, you build these events and un until you open the doors, as much as we've sold tickets and everyone said they're coming and you row roughly what you're gonna expect till they actually come. It's like, You know, are they gonna come? We know we've done everything, and we've done all the marketing and we've got a great lineup and we've, you know, it's all in. But then, you know, I mean, one year we got hit with an incredible storm. Trevor Sorbie was due to be on stage and he was stuck in Europe, couldn't come back, and I'd got 15 hundred people sat in the theater and I had to go on stage and tell him he wasn't coming.

[00:36:06] Antony W.: Wow, okay.
 
[00:36:08] Jayne L.: I mean, it was just, I mean, it was terrible for Trevor, but it was also not, it was difficult for us because people have travelled from around the world know these things happen, and that's live events. You're right. I think the pandemic has made, did make people reassess. I think we are in an industry that is very tactile. Hairdressers. Hairdressing is one of the only crafts where actually the whole time you're with your client, you are touching them. Pretty much. It's an in, it's, you know, you are in their space. and face to face actually, I think there was a real demand coming out of the pandemic for people to get back together. I mean, we ran Salon International in October 21. We were one of the first events to run again. at Excel London. And, you know, it, I mean I lit, you know, I'll be the first to fess up. I've spent the three days frequently in tears because people came up and just said, I dunno, you, but we are so glad you've done this because we. to just get back to normal.

[00:37:09] Jayne L.: And see people and feel normal. And, you know, you think, well that's, but that's only gonna be one, one show. They're gonna wanna do that. So, you know, we did 22, and actually the show had grown in size. We were nearly at the pre-pandemic size, not quite. but in terms of visitor numbers, we were delighted. There were still. Where we were lower on visitor numbers would be international. And we expected that cause So still, you know, certain areas are still having difficulties and caution about traveling and then, and actually I think, you know, we probably all guilty for this Kinda got outta the habit of traveling, you know, because we didn't do it for so long. Well, it was like, I can hand on heart, say in all the years I've worked here, I have never in my working life have 52 weekends at home.

[00:37:56] Antony W.: Yes. I that, yeah. Yeah, definitely.

[00:37:58] Jayne L.: Because I spend a lot of weekends away from home. And it was like, oh, this is really odd, being at home every weekend. But you did get used to it. And it's amazing. The humans just adapt and they, but I, it's great to be back out and doing stuff, and I think it's the same as with all the things we've talked about. You have to. Give the audience what they want. If you give them what they want, they will come. we've got some big plans for this year, things were changing, new teams we want to put on board on stages. Different ways of doing the stages. You know, one, again, we have focus groups for everything. And one of the things that came up was, you know, and we want to see colour work. Well, that's quite a challenge because watching colour process isn't necessarily the most exciting thing. And it was like, how do we do that? How do we do that in the space? How do we make that work? So we introduced a colour
 
stage and actually what we have on the colour stage of pods. So the best technicians come and they will lot in the pod, so everyone can watch, ask questions. There's no, it's not ticketed, it's on the show floor. watch people. Sectioning choosing their colour pattern, sorry. Choosing their colour shades, looking at their, you know, their patterns. and asking them why are you doing that? Why are you sectioning like that? Why did you choose that shade?

[00:39:10] Jayne L.: What? So it became a real learning cause of that. There is a demand for learning. I think people want education. They want stay on top of the trends. And actually getting better at the trends that are not going away. mean, Balayage is not going anywhere, whether people like it or not. Yeah. Yeah. There are new versions of Balayage and I think that's really important to keep people coming back, keep them engaged and interested. But actually, and what we did, because we had lots of pods working at the same time. It was never stagnant. It was never just, oh, someone's got a process for 45 minutes. Cause the next pod was at a different stage and actually they were rinsing off the colour live. People could watch them tone at the sink. then they would finish their models and present and talk about why they chose the shades they'd chosen. Looking at skin colour, life's, all those kind of things. so it is about constantly looking at new ways to interact. and actually we've got to make that area bigger cause we couldn't, it could, it just became over. Crowded, it became swamped. It was difficult for things to work more about.

[00:40:02] Antony W.: Smaller groups. Yes. More smaller groups rather than the big on stage. Extravagant,

[00:40:08] Jayne L.: Big. Absolutely. And I do think, I personally think, and it's something we are looking at now, that there is a demand for that. What I would call up close and personal, more up close and personal education. So it's a smaller group. it's more intimate. You feel more part of it. It's easier to ask questions of the people on stage, those kind of environments. Yeah. As opposed to the, you know, I mean pre pandemic, we were in a 4,000 seat auditorium. Massive stage shows and rightly I think we paired that back hugely in 21 cause we just weren't sure what was gonna happen with audience numbers and stuff. We went up to kind of 15 hundred this year and seats and they did really well. But I think there is an, there is a demand for that up close and personal education and you know, it's a mix isn't it? You will have people who love learning online, but they probably don't just wanna learn online. Yeah, they will learn online, but they want. Some real life action where they can see people actually. Doing the do as they talk, the talk?
 
[00:41:05] Antony W.: Yeah. I think definitely with the creative stuff from my angle where I come from, there's a lot of people that are really happy about doing more online in the business context. doing that online, because they can do it in bite size pieces. They can do it in their own time. Yeah. They can repeat it as often as they want, you know? and if you combine it with, you know, a live component, whether it's, you know, live Facebook groups or live Zoom coaching calls or whatever.

[00:41:30] Jayne L.: Absolutely.

[00:41:31] Antony W.: It's a good, it's a good hybrid. you,

[00:41:33] Jayne L.: Business is something that, sorry, business is something not to be overlooked. Business is something not to be overlooked because,we do a business conference at Salon and, you know, you try and get the topics right. and we, you know, mixed it up this year and said, actually, we are gonna run the business on the three days. Normally, previously, we don't ever run it Sunday, Monday, not on the Saturday. And we had a bit of an internal. And I was like, it won't work on Saturday. I don't think it'll work on Saturday. I hate eating humble pie, Antony. But absolutely you had to, cause all of those sessions were busy Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. So I do think there is a real demand for people wanting to, you know, whether it's marketing skills, digital skills, better ROI, you know, recruitment retention, everyone's having an issue.

[00:42:13] Jayne L.: About with teams and staff and the changing to hybrid working and people wanting to go freelance and not, you know, self-employed as opposed to on payroll. Yeah. and those kind of topics, I mean, you are right. There is absolutely demand for that online, and we see that very much with the content on the website. Those are often the most searched. Content pieces. Yeah. You know, if you've got an issue about maternity, you are probably not gonna flick back through the last 30 issues of Hairdresser's Journal. But you might go on the website. Yeah. Put in the search terms maternity law, and there it is. And that's the kind of things that have changed, isn't it?

[00:42:48] Jayne L.: Accessible.

[00:42:49] Antony W.: Yeah. That's interesting [00:42:49] Jayne L.: That you can find.
 
[00:42:50] Antony W.: Yeah.I just wanna pick up on you. You've touched on a couple of times, things around recruitment, when you were talking before about getting, you know, the hairdressers to go into schools, et cetera, and talk about what a great career it is. Yeah. and then, and now you, you've just touched on that whole idea of, you know, different business models and people wanting to work independent and all that sort of stuff. I often have commented during this sort of series that I'm doing that, that you have. A unique perspective. I think the media, because they see, yep. Like every area of the industry, from the manufacturers to the salons and you know, the events, the shows, the awards, which I think is fascinating. what are you seeing, around recruitment? What trends are you seeing? Are you seeing or hearing anyone who has some brilliant solutions that are working fantastically well?

[00:43:38] Jayne L.: I think there's a real mix. You've got some people who absolutely, what works for them is having employed stylists, they reward them very well. They are loyal and that is absolutely working and, but there is also an element, no matter how much you are doing for people, I think what the pandemic did do was make people want this, you know, the work-life balance. and absolutely I understand why they want that. And if they can't have that flex, then, you know, because then you go to the people who actually are running employed, but they're much more flexible around what they're doing and the hours that people work and the days that people work through to the other, where you've got salons that are actually offering. Self-employed stylists, the opportunity to stay with them, but work in the space. and then, you know, you've also got the, I think probably more of what started in America, wasn't it, where you have the spaces where individual businesses are operating within those spaces, and that, that's also now in the UK. I think they were probably always coming. I think the pandemic speeded it up. And, you know, let's pre pandemic, there was a shift towards self-employment. And being in charge of Iranian destiny, and I understand, I, you know, I can understand that, but there are also still a chunk of people who actually really want to be part of the team and be, have the security that team may bring with you in it.

[00:44:57] Jayne L.: I think what you have to do is be open to all and look at the ways that it works for your business. I don't, one size doesn't fit all people are running very different sizes of business, very different business models. It does seem, it feels to me like it's settling down in terms of, you know, there's, I think there are, there. you know, there were big facebook groups and it does feel like it's calmed down. I think what pre after the pandemic when everyone opened and then, you know, quite, it felt like a sway of people went, actually I don't want
 
to do this anymore. I wanna do my thing, my way, my terms, my hours. That seems to have definitely settled, I think. And I.I think there's been a, there's had to be a mindset shift for business owners. We've had to do it, you know, in media. People don't wanna necessarily be committed to the office five days a week. And actually, if the pandemic did nothing else for businesses like ours, you realize that, you know, our team were fantastic. They were working incredibly hard remotely. But then you miss out on the interaction and those spark of ideas when you hear someone say something in the office and do you know what I mean? And actually, I think for younger, for new people coming in, They need to absorb what's going on around them to learn and develop and that's not easy to do on Zoom remotely. And I, you know, I know I sound very old saying that, but it isn't.

[00:46:18] Antony W: No. Yeah. You need a balance between the two. Yeah.

[00:46:20] Jayne L.: You need a balance of the two. And I think. That businesses have had to adapt. I think some were more loath to adapt than others. I think, you know, I'm sure you that in your line of work. There was a lot.

[00:46:31] Antony W.: Totally.

[00:46:31] Jayne L.: I'm not changing and if they don't like it And that's fine, but then you have to be prepared that some people might choose to take a different path and Yeah. So long as you are good with that and they're good with that, you know. , my view is there's room in this world for all of us. and everybody needs to do what's right for them at the time. They do it so longer. They do it in an honourable way. And I think that was the frustration for many that they felt they'd, you know, they'd paid teams through the pandemic. They topped up furlough, and then people didn't come back. Well, that will.

[00:47:03] Antony W.: Yeah, definitely.

[00:47:03] Jayne L.: You know when you feel you've done, when you are running a business and you feel you've done everything in your power to make it as easy for people as possible. And then I suppose it feels, but I think I do. You know, I mean the world's moved on, on time is a great healer. I think there will always be, there is definitely a shift towards more focus on self-employed. Yeah. and the manufacturers I think, have shifted too. And you'll see this, you know, there, there's a lot more focus on all areas of the market, not just salons, because I
 
think the latest stats, wasn't it for the UK anyway, I think 66% of the market was self-employed.

[00:47:37] Antony W.: Yeah. Well, that's what I was gonna say to you. I mean, I last heard 64. Every time I hear it, the number 60, the number is going north a bit and that, and in the UK the self-employed thing, in a lot of salons, you don't necessarily recognize that they're self-employed, whereas, as you alluded to in the US yes, there's a lot more of the salon suite business model. So it's very, yeah. Very evident that they're independent businesses, whereas in the UK yeah, it looks like a salon full of people working happily together, but they're actually, you know, 10 individual businesses in their own right. But absolutely that, that in itself is interesting cause that must have an impact on you, you know, in terms of awards, in terms of, you know, trade fairs and events, et cetera. Yeah. Because you're no longer just marketing to one person, I e the salon owner and them putting their hand in your pocket. you're having to reach.
, all of these people that are effectively independent businesses in their own right. So that, must present challenges to you.

[00:48:32] Jayne L.: So Yeah, it does. And I think the focus in the last, you know, three or four years has been very much about data. Cause all businesses now are only as good as whether it's a hairdressing salon. They need the data on their customers to make sure they're coming back, they're getting, you know, they're making contact, they stay in touch with 'em, they stay loyal, they become that great client. it's no different for us. We have. you're right, you do have to work harder because we have to find them because they're not, as you say, it's not one salon, who's got five people coming with them or whatever. Social media is a great way of doing that, and we work very hard on our social channels across all channels and. Fortunately, but it's not Lark because we work very hard at it. We have great, we have huge reach and we do try to engage as much as possible. You know, people message, we dial message back. cause that's, you know, there is nothing worse is that than sending a message and nobody replies. I mean, that's just irritating. Whether it's an email or WhatsApp or a, you know, so there's, but you are right. You ha we've. You have to change and we've had to adapt to that as well.

[00:49:32] Jayne L.: And it's looking, always looking at new ways, you know, using different methods to target people who fit the persona that we need. To get them to enter the awards, to come to salon, to look at the social channels, to interact with us in some way. And you know, you are always looking at how you can reward the people that interact with you more. so that they feel really
 
special and really part of that community. And I think that will be ongoing forever and it. It will continue to change because the ways in which you reach them will undoubtedly continue to change. Yeah. And, but you're right, it's gone of the days of, you know, salon's marketing was five direct males. And that was and some advertising in the magazine. It's now multi-channel global with media partners everywhere, who we work with and using our own channel. in very different ways to get to the personas and the different target audiences that we need to get to.

[00:50:20] Antony W.: Yeah. So, okay. I I have one last question for you again, and then we need to wrap up. when you look outside the UK market, and I know you get to go to other countries and awards, et cetera, and see what's happening, what do you see that you wish we would embrace more in the UK in any?

[00:50:39] Jayne L.: What do I see?

[00:50:40] Antony W.: In any, in anything, any part of the industry as to how we work, how we recruit, how we train people, how we run awards, anything at all.

[00:50:49] Jayne L.: I think there are certainly in some regions, you know, there are, there is no doubt there are phenomenal. He, I think, There are phenomenal hairdressers the world over. They might have a different style and, but that's just trends and what happens to be current in that Yeah. In that geography as opposed to anything else. I think in some regions I think it would, it feels to me like the hairdressers are almost more confident than our own UK hairdressers about what they do, who they're, and what they stand for and are more prepared. Say I am, you know, this is who, do you know what I mean? Cause it, you know, I think sometimes here, even the, you know, the household names here, are still on the whole really humble about who that, and it's not about the others aren't humble and they're showy or anything.

[00:51:39] Jayne L.: They just seems to be more confidence in actually standing up and saying, this is who I am, this is what I do, and I am really good at it.

[00:51:46] Antony W.: Great. That's really good.

[00:51:47] Jayne L.: So, you know, and I you know, I. , I suppose I'm probably a frustrated hairdresser under all that. I want everybody to be really proud of what they do, the craft they work in and the service and the support that they give to
 
their clients. Yeah. You know, we alluded it to it for, it is so much more than just making people feel good isn't look good, isn't it? It's about how you make them feel. and, you know, hairdressing became the fourth emergency service in the pandemic. We need to hold onto that and remember how valuable the craft is. Yeah. I think in some regions they definitely seem, well, they seemed to be, I suppose, just a bit more confident that is their position, whereas I don't think we should, he, UK hairdressing shouldn't be grateful for that. The pandemic, media were telling us repeatedly, no one could, you know, if people were honest when they were asked who they wanted to see when we were allowed to see people again.

[00:52:35] Jayne L.: Obviously everyone said family cause it was the right thing to say, but a very close second was their hairdresser. Yeah. Yeah. I mean when I went got and I, when I went to get my, I obviously didn't do anything to my own hair cause I wouldn't, and my fringe almost was under my chin by the time I actually got in to see a hairdresser. And when I went to see Darren and I cried with the relief and I know that sounds ridiculous, but it was just like, oh, thank god for that. we can get back to nor we can get back. This is getting back to normal. You know, you don't feel yourself if you think your hair looks crap.

[00:53:04] Antony W: I'm gonna say it, but you don't feel yourself. Yeah. You know, and it, and that's not being flippant. It's a huge part of who you are. and I think that's a worldwide thing. I don't think the media, I don't know what the media would like, and I would hope the media all around the world was as supportive in, getting salons open. I know some places were even slowest open than the UK, which was really tough. Yeah. You know, there's some great work. And one thing I would say, we love sharing that kind of work from around the world. So people have got images and stories and news and they wanna get, then they contact us because we do share stuff from around the world. And you know, some of the work we get sent from Australia, America, absolutely phenomenal. When we look at the international category, the stuff, you know, the current international hairdressers of the year is from Ukraine. Wow. incredible collection she put together.

[00:53:51] Antony W.: Fantastic. Good. That's great.

[00:53:53] Jayne L.: You know, it's about making hairdressing a community that's bigger than. Geography isn't it?
 
[00:53:58] Antony W. Sure. Yeah. Okay. So, on that note, where can people connect with you on Instagram or website or any other social media channels?

[00:54:05] Jayne L.: Yeah, absolutely. So in Instagram is just at Jayne Lewis Orr, and it's Jayne with a y. so at Jayne Lewis Orr on Facebook, or email, they can get me, which is Jayne, so j a y n e l at pb group. com. but it's all on our, if you go to H J I and just email, they'll send the messages through to me. If you just use the generic email and I'll come back. Absolutely. Be great.

[00:54:27] Jayne L.: Right. Okay. Well,

[00:54:28] Antony W.: I'll put those links on our website, at grow my salon business.com.

[00:54:32] Jayne L.: Thank you.

[00:54:32] Antony W.: And I'll be in the show notes for today's podcast. So if you'll listen to this podcast with Jayne Lewis Orr, and have enjoyed it. And do me a favour, take a screenshot on your phone, share it to Instagram stories, and don't forget to subscribe and leave us a rating and review on the Apple Podcast. That, so to wrap Jayne, it's been absolutely wonderful having this opportunity, having a chat to you for the last day and getting to know you. I, you floored me right at the beginning when you said you've got two 20-year-old twins. I was like, I did.

[00:54:58] Jayne L.: 21 year old twin boys, [00:55:00] Antony W.: Some. That's fantastic. So,
[00:55:02] Jayne L.: They are my biggest achievement.

[00:55:05] Antony W.: Well, that's some achievement too. I'm sure. So, okay. Well, Jayne, thank you once again for being on the show. We really appreciated it.

[00:55:13] Jayne L. Thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure.

[00:55:17] Antony W. Thank you for listening to today's podcast. If you'd like to connect with us, you'll find us at grow my salon business.com, or on Facebook
 
and Instagram at Grow My Salon Business. And if you enjoyed tuning into our podcast, make sure that you subscribe, like, and share it with your friends. Until next time, this is Antony Whitaker wishing you continued success.