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Marie: You're listening to grief
and pizza, a podcast, exploring the

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highs and lows at the intersection
of business and emotional wellbeing.

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In this episode, we're talking to Mariah
Coz one of my longtime business mentors

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about what it means to design a business
that works for your unique needs.

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So, Mariah, I am so excited to be here
with you today because I've been a huge

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fan of yours forever, and I've been
a long time consumer of your digital

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products, your courses, your programs,
your blogs, your podcast, et cetera.

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So you've had a huge, huge
influence on kind of, I think

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how I show up in business.

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And I think there's, there's so much
that you do really, really well.

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I think one of the things that you've kind
of shone a light on for me is building

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a neurodivergent friendly business.

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And I don't know if you would, uh,
agree with that or if you maybe

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self-identify as neurodivergent, but
the way you show up in your business

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unapologetically and designed for the
way you, Mariah need to show up has been

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really, really impressive to me over
the years in very permission giving.

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So I'd just love to kind of hear,
do you identify with that when

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you think of you've really built a
neurodivergent friendly business?

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Mariah: Yeah.

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You know, I probably haven't
used that word specifically,

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but it's definitely how I think.

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I,

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I always have used the word like me proof.

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I'm like, I need it to be Mariah proof.

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How can we Mariah proof this process or
this system, or this product or something?

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Um, and so I think before I knew what
Neurodivergent was, I was thinking in

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terms of how do we make it Mariah proof?

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But for me, you know, having anxiety
and depression and knowing that there's

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gonna be times when I'm not gonna be
able to show up or I'm not gonna be

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able to like, be my best or whatever.

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And so I feel like I've just been
always sort of riding the waves of like,

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creating when I have, like when I'm in
a good spot, I create a lot, like too

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much and it's like hard to turn it off.

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And then I'll go into like a low spot.

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But it's okay if I have to take a step
back because I've got like such an

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archive of things, but also systems and
processes in place so that I can take

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a step back and most of the time no one
even really notices, which is great.

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Marie: Yeah, I mean, you talk a lot
about, um, you know, building evergreen

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products and I'm, I'm kind of curious,
do you notice when these cycles are

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happening where you're like, oh, I'm
in, I'm in the surge, and it's time

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to double down and clear the schedule
and just go, you know, fully into it.

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And do you notice those times
where you're like, oh, my

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energy, like burnout is coming?

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I mean, you must be pretty tuned into some
of those cycles, but what are some of the

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signs for you that you kind of know that
the good times and the bad times are,

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Mariah: That's a good question.

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I definitely know when I'm in a
good time because I'm like, wow.

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Call it a braingasm.

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Like my brain is on fire.

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Like I have so many things to say
and do and I can't put, you know, I

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can't stop taking notes and I feel
like I can record a bunch of stuff.

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I can write a bunch of stuff.

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I do feel like also part of this is
just, it just happens in the design

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too, where like choosing, um, you know,
choosing formats that are gonna work

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long term, regardless of what
you're up to or what's going on,

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you know, with me personally.

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So choosing to like have a podcast instead
of like video based stuff, or choosing

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to have blog posts that are evergreen
rather than an Instagram presence or

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choosing to have, um, like my products
now are supported by a q and a private

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podcast rather than live group calls.

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And so making a lot of those changes, I
think happens in like the design phase.

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I feel like I know when I'm in a good
spot, but one thing I've learned about

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myself is that I do not have an empty
gauge, do not have anything that tells

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me that we're like headed for trouble.

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Like, yeah, there's no, there's
no, like, you're at 10%, you're at

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5%, like you're running on fumes.

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It just, all of a sudden I wake up
one day and I'm like, Nope, I'm done.

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Like I, and you never know
how long it's gonna last.

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I can't even really identify like
what causes it a lot of the times

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or what, where it comes from.

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You know what I mean?

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Um, so sometimes people will be like,
oh, like you burnt, you went too hard

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and you like burnt out on your business.

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And it's like, well, I think it might just
be a chemical in my brain or something.

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I don't know that it's
like the business's fault.

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I think it's just like how I am.

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Ben: There was a, a friend of mine on
Twitter recently was talking about,

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you know, these, he had these different
check boxes for, for like freelance and

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entrepreneur and being employed and,
and the check boxes were moved to like

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high or low risk and that kind of thing.

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And when I was looking at that,
I was like, oh, those, those

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toggles aren't really guaranteed.

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So I'm wondering for you, do you have.

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Some sort of evaluatory
process for deciding what,

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why go podcast versus video?

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Is it more just experiential and you try
something and you're like, well, that

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didn't work, so I'm not doing that again?

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Or is there a initial like thinking phase
that you, you think about, you know, okay,

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these are the values that we have, these
are the principles that I operate by.

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What's that look like for you?

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Mariah: Yeah, that's a
really good question.

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I, I mean I maybe I've never even
gotten that granular about it and just

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thought, oh, well, I just prefer to not.

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get dressed.

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So, so like a podcast is perfect for
me, um, because I can sit down and talk

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for hours by myself in my room, but I
do not want to like actually take off.

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Like, guys, I was so close to
showing up to this in my rope so

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close, like, I was like, I was like,

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Marie: You, it would've been welcome.

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Mariah: I know.

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I was like, you know,
I'm very comfortable.

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Like I know them, it's fine.

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I was like, they'll, they'll accept
me if I show up in my fluffy robe.

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But then I was like, well, what
if some, what if other, you know,

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I'm comfortable with you guys.

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But then I was like, what if other people
see that and they're like, oh my God.

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So I feel like my ideal situation is
being very comfortable, being cozy,

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choosing something that I can do sort
of with like a bare minimum approach.

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And that's not always how it's been.

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To be clear too, because like
there's, if I've been riding a wave,

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I've done three day virtual
conferences before where I

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was on for eight hours a day.

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I was presenting, talking and
interviewing people for eight hours

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a day for three days straight.

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I've done that.

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I've done all sorts of crazy, like live
things, so it's not like this is always

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how it is, but I think right now I
definitely was kind of going through and

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just being like, what's, what's low lift?

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What is something that I can pretty much
show up for, um, even if I'm really tired

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and like don't have a lot of energy?

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I would love to know how you guys
feel about this because I feel like

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I'm at like a turning point where I'm
like, I don't care about aesthetics.

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I don't care about how things look.

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I only care about, like, I'm highly like.

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Intellectualized about everything,
but, and I care about like the words

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and the thoughts and the ideas, but I
really don't care about the visuals.

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And I've always felt like the visual
side of things has been really

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hard for me and really, like a
challenge doesn't come easily to me.

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I don't like it, but it
feels like it's necessary.

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And I've identified how much that
having a visual component to any

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piece, any of your content is just
like slow, slows everything down,

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slows things down so quickly.

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I want, this is what I've
been thinking about lately.

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I want like the fastest no barriers
between a thought and an idea, and then

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like the publishing of that, or like
a thought and an idea and then like,

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getting that out in the world and
gauging interest in that and testing it.

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And so that's why like I create all of my
courses in Google Docs instead of slides,

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you know, and I think I'm even, I've been
really thinking about this a lot lately

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of how to really take that to even the
next level where it's like even stopping

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to create like a Canva graphic for an
Instagram quote or post or something.

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Too much, don't want to, I
don't wanna slow it down to do

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the visual aspect of things.

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And so I think that's also part of
it is like if I had to do formats

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like video or Instagram or whatever,
that requires visuals and is more

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focused on style than substance,
I'm really gonna struggle with that.

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You know, I've obviously had visuals
before, but it's, but like it always

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takes so much work and it requires me
to hire someone and all this stuff.

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So now I'm just trying to figure
out what are the formats I could

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share my ideas and thoughts in that
require zero visual input whatsoever.

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So like, threads is really fun.

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Podcasting, don't have to
worry about the visuals at all.

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Um, blogging, you know, putting
stuff on the website, not

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really that much about visuals.

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Um, you know, I think I just like,
am really sick of aesthetics and

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just like what things visually
look like and I'm over it and I

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want to avoid it at all costs.

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Do you guys feel like that or are
you guys like designing visuals?

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Marie: you're talking to, to people
who like graduated from design school,

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so, but I can, I can totally appreciate
what you're saying and I, and I think.

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It was shocking for me,
but also quite impressive.

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Like the first time I, you know,
purchased your higher end programs,

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I'm like, oh, she's just doing
like a loom video on a spreadsheet.

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It's so simple.

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And even though I, as a designer
appreciating design, I appreciated the

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simplicity with which you're not letting
those barriers prevent you from getting

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someone the value super, super quick.

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And I, I quite appreciated that
about your work and even your, um,

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the way you explain your frameworks.

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Like you always have a framework for
breaking down your ideas and they're

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often a very, very simple graphic.

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There's usually three components to it.

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It's some kind of triangle overlapping
circles, but it's like, it's so simple

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and you are so good at kind of distilling
those complex topics into something

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that someone can get right away.

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So just wanna say, I can, I can
appreciate where you're coming from

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and I still think you do such a good
job even with the stuff that you put

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out there that's not overly aesthetic.

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It still gets the point across
and is, is very impressive.

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Um,

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Mariah: Thank you I do like making
my little diagrams, like I love

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to draw a little diagram, but
beyond that I'm like, I can't have

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like colors and shapes and stuff.

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I'm like, there.

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Yes, there's circles,
there's dots, there's lines.

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I can totally, I like that part.

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Ben: Yeah.

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I would say for me it's the.

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The exciting part of, of, of it is
in design systems, and that's where

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you're building something that makes
sense as a container and you can

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sort of forget about the design.

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And so once you have something kind
of effortless, you can just throw

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your concepts and content into
that and it evolves based on that.

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So an example of that is
like our podcast cover.

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The one, one thing that we discovered
recently about Canva is that you can

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actually sort of make like component.

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Component slots for images.

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So once you have the, the actual template
set up, you just drop an image in a

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certain folder and the, the graphics
will auto be created based on, so it'll

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create the YouTube cover, the, the podcast
cover, the variation cover, just based

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on an image that you uploaded somewhere.

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So I think Marie and I get pretty excited
about those kind of automated systems

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where you don't act, you're not actually
doing any active design work, you're

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Marie: It's like, how could
this be as lazy as possible?

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Ben: Yeah.

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And that, and that way we can just focus
on showing up for the podcast and, and

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having a, you know, creative conversation.

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And, and it can go kind of any
direction and we don't really

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need to think about, you know,
all the design language around it.

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We've just created this
one container for it.

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And I think it, it kind of plays out in
our, in our trainings as well where we've

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moved away from trying to create specific
content around how to do things in Notion.

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And it's more like we're doing
these trainings now where there's a

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little more play with the audience.

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So we sort of set up a container.

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Um, so for example, we started doing
these events called Demo Days because

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Notion is just shipping so many
different features every week we have to.

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Show all the new features, but
instead of doing like a really, like

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rigid with design and slides and
stuff, we just show up and we talk

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about what the new features are.

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We, we, we run through how to actually do
it, and then we kind of let the audience

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drive what they want to know more about.

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So it's, it's less like thinking upfront
and more like what is, what's actually

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of interest to our audience here?

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And we can be a little bit more loose
with the, with the presentation so

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we don't have to present all kinds
of graphics and have it make sense

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that way you're actually seeing it
in real time and stuff like that.

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So I think, yeah, it's, I've,
I think that's played out a

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lot in our content as well.

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Mariah: It's such an advantage
to have the design background.

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I do think in this, in as a creator, as
a course person, as a business owner.

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10 extra points on
everything you do because

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you guys, yeah, you guys you
guys get that like step up.

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Marie: You know, and kudos to you.

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I, I think, you know, Ben and I
have been thinking about doing

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a podcast for a long, long time,
and I think it was seeing in your

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community you were shipping these, um.

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I mean, you're shipping your podcast
and then you've got this sort of special

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episode podcast behind the scenes
that are just for your paying members.

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And, and then you were sending out
these awesome emails that are kind

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of like a summary of here's what
we talked about in the podcast.

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And I could see there was a system
happening behind the scenes.

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But doing the podcast seems so
intimidating, but for you, you

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were like, this is my focus.

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It's so low lift, it's so easy.

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And I'm like, please explain to
me how a podcast could be easy.

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It just seemed like there
were so many moving parts.

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So I love that you actually inspired me to
think of it as, what if it could be easy?

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Like what could this actually look
like if other people are doing this?

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And it seems really low lift.

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So, um, yeah, I just wanna say like,
thanks for showing me that it could

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be not just a podcast, but the way you
were extracting the, the transcripts

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and the content summarizing it and
using that for other pieces of content

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was sort of like a, an unlock for me.

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Mariah: Oh, I love that.

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Yeah.

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No, it's been, it's, to me,
it is the easiest format.

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It's like I can, uh, I start with
just the bullet point outline.

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So I write the bullet point outline
first, and then, I record and

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then I just hit record and start
talking about those bullet points.

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So it's like I don't have to really
write out that much because I can

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just fill in the gaps and talk
about stuff and riff on things.

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And then I use that same bullet point
outline, becomes the blog post and

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becomes the exact content of the email.

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Um, but it all just kind of starts with
like, there's five or 10 bullet points

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and then that's hit record that turns
into every other piece of content.

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And that, I think just
keeps it really easy.

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And I do think doing it most of my
episodes lately, I mean the podcast, I

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think I started it back in maybe 2017,
I don't even know, a long time ago.

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Took a break for a long time
and then came back last year.

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Uh, and have only done solo episodes.

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And I think solo episodes definitely,
uh, keeps it really simple.

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There's no back and forth.

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There's no scheduling and stuff like that.

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But you guys inspired me to be like,
I got to get my shit together and

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figure out how to have guests on
the podcast because when I was going

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through your onboarding process, so
simple, so clear, it was so easy.

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Usually people are like, Hey,
come on my podcast, here's like

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20 different dates and times and
here's, oh, don't forget this.

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And I'm like, oh my God.

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So you guys have inspired me that
maybe I could have guests in a way

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that doesn't make me feel crazy.

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Marie: Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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All about those systems.

285
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And again, it comes down to,
that's, that's my form of laziness.

286
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I'm like, I do not wanna
do all this manual effort.

287
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So what is the lowest lift
way that we could do this?

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The only way that we're gonna be able
to do it is if it's easy, repeatable.

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I'm not having to, you know,
tinker around with all this stuff.

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Ben: It's so interesting how we've,
we're kind of inverting the experience

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where you, you're saying in a sense that,
oh, it's, it's easy because it's solo.

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I don't have to think about X, Y, Z.

293
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Whereas I think Marie and I
find it really helpful to have

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somebody to sort of riff off of.

295
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And when we start going to
like just the two of us, then

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we, it start to becoming more,

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more precious in a way,
and, and, and meaningful.

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And if I were to just do one by
myself, I think that would be

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like the hardest thing to do.

300
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Um, yeah, so it's really interesting.

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I guess it's just a, a, a, a matter of,
of, you know, how you interact with other

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people and, and, and things like that.

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So really

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Mariah: Are you more of a writer Ben?

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Ben: I think so, yeah.

306
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A lot of times when everyone is
doing videos, for example, of a new

307
00:16:03,403 --> 00:16:06,823
Notion feature that comes out, it,
it feels more natural for me to write

308
00:16:06,828 --> 00:16:10,303
and, and like kind of make these
diagrams and it, it's just a lot.

309
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Yeah, I like that.

310
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Yeah.

311
00:16:14,083 --> 00:16:19,753
The writing feels more iterative, whereas
with video, I feel like I have to go

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00:16:19,753 --> 00:16:22,693
back and do all these, like, it's more,
it's more of an editing thing than a

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00:16:22,693 --> 00:16:26,503
just a, a getting it out and, you know,
it just, it's easier for me to refine my

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00:16:26,503 --> 00:16:28,423
thinking, I think in, in written language.

315
00:16:29,038 --> 00:16:30,163
Mariah: Yeah, no, I know.

316
00:16:30,163 --> 00:16:33,433
It's so scary that you can't really,
like, I mean, you could, but you can't

317
00:16:33,433 --> 00:16:35,593
really edit things once they're out there.

318
00:16:35,593 --> 00:16:38,383
That's why I just put 'em out there
and then never look at them again.

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00:16:38,413 --> 00:16:39,853
'cause ew, like,

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Marie: Do you do pretty minimal editing on

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Mariah: I do no editing one take wonders.

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I do no, no editing.

323
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I'm literally so lazy about it.

324
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Like, I don't even have an intro.

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I just, I just hop on and I hit record
and I say, Hey, this is Mariah Ka show.

326
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This is what today's all about.

327
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And then I just start talking.

328
00:16:59,863 --> 00:17:04,063
I don't even have like a prerecorded
intro that plays or anything like that.

329
00:17:04,978 --> 00:17:05,638
One day.

330
00:17:05,878 --> 00:17:08,728
I mean, this is me, I'm like,
in my fantasy world, I'm like, I

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want my podcast to be my business.

332
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I want my podcast to be
like this huge market.

333
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You know?

334
00:17:13,708 --> 00:17:15,028
I want it to be our
main marketing channel.

335
00:17:15,028 --> 00:17:16,228
I want it to be this,
that, and the other thing.

336
00:17:16,648 --> 00:17:19,048
I have all these big dreams for
it, and yet of course I treat

337
00:17:19,053 --> 00:17:21,238
it like, oh yeah, no big deal.

338
00:17:21,238 --> 00:17:23,608
The laziest lowest, you know, lowest

339
00:17:23,683 --> 00:17:26,383
Marie: But it's working even
with that low effort, right?

340
00:17:26,383 --> 00:17:26,983
It's,

341
00:17:27,088 --> 00:17:31,828
Mariah: I get, I mean, it's definitely
our, our number one like nurture channel.

342
00:17:31,828 --> 00:17:33,478
I mean, it's, it's our sales channel.

343
00:17:33,478 --> 00:17:36,538
I really don't, besides, it's like
email and podcast is really all

344
00:17:36,538 --> 00:17:40,768
I do consistently, and I don't
even do it that consistently.

345
00:17:40,768 --> 00:17:44,818
So it's kind of like that's, I mean,
that's gotta be where sales come from

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00:17:44,818 --> 00:17:47,968
because other than that, I really don't
know where they would be coming from.

347
00:17:48,613 --> 00:17:50,953
Marie: Well, could we talk
a little bit about that too?

348
00:17:50,953 --> 00:17:54,523
Because you've, you've had so many
different pivots maybe over the years

349
00:17:54,523 --> 00:17:56,773
in terms of, I know like Facebook ads.

350
00:17:56,773 --> 00:17:58,603
I know you were doing YouTube for a while.

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00:17:58,608 --> 00:18:01,543
So like what are some of those
pivots you've made and how did I

352
00:18:01,543 --> 00:18:03,943
guess, podcasting become the one
that you were like, yeah, this

353
00:18:03,943 --> 00:18:04,963
is the one we're doubling down

354
00:18:04,993 --> 00:18:06,373
Mariah: Yeah, that's such a good point.

355
00:18:06,373 --> 00:18:07,003
Yeah, definitely.

356
00:18:07,063 --> 00:18:10,033
I can say, oh, right now it's
like, that's prob, that's where ma

357
00:18:10,063 --> 00:18:11,503
majority of our sales come from.

358
00:18:11,713 --> 00:18:18,223
But a few years ago that was not the case
because I think between 2019 to 2022, I

359
00:18:18,223 --> 00:18:20,158
didn't, wasn't doing the podcast at all.

360
00:18:20,563 --> 00:18:22,153
And we were super heavy on ads.

361
00:18:22,153 --> 00:18:27,103
We were running ads from 20, uh,
the summer of 2019 all through

362
00:18:27,103 --> 00:18:29,173
until the beginning of 2023.

363
00:18:29,533 --> 00:18:31,333
We were running a ton of ads.

364
00:18:31,603 --> 00:18:37,603
Pretty much like 90% of our
lead gen was ads to a variety

365
00:18:37,603 --> 00:18:38,773
of different entry points.

366
00:18:38,773 --> 00:18:42,313
Like sometimes it was to a
webinar, sometimes it was to a,

367
00:18:42,313 --> 00:18:45,223
um, low ticket, like $29 product.

368
00:18:45,343 --> 00:18:49,183
Sometimes it was to a virtual conference,
sometimes it was to an application page.

369
00:18:49,303 --> 00:18:53,203
So like the entry points changed
over the years of running those ads.

370
00:18:53,443 --> 00:18:56,983
But we did go very hard with
YouTube ads and Facebook,

371
00:18:56,983 --> 00:18:59,503
Instagram ads, Google ads, um.

372
00:19:00,283 --> 00:19:03,133
From 2019 to, to the beginning of 2023.

373
00:19:03,193 --> 00:19:06,283
And it was always, always
worked well for us.

374
00:19:06,283 --> 00:19:09,073
And so like, it was always
a good, um, strategy.

375
00:19:09,116 --> 00:19:11,786
there's always gonna be seasons,
and I think this is true with all of

376
00:19:11,786 --> 00:19:15,506
business, I think this is true with
any strategy, is that there's gonna be

377
00:19:15,506 --> 00:19:19,766
seasons where like everything is just
working perfectly, everything is flowing,

378
00:19:19,766 --> 00:19:23,066
everything is clicking, everything
is like doing exactly what it should.

379
00:19:23,456 --> 00:19:29,276
And so there'll be seasons where we
were able to run like one ad, that

380
00:19:29,281 --> 00:19:34,436
same ad for like a year and a half
or two years, and it was just going.

381
00:19:34,991 --> 00:19:35,651
Like crazy.

382
00:19:35,651 --> 00:19:40,181
It was just working perfectly high
conversions, 12 x return on ad spend

383
00:19:40,181 --> 00:19:45,401
for like years with that one ad and
then things change and it's like, oh,

384
00:19:45,401 --> 00:19:46,871
we gotta try different ad creative.

385
00:19:46,901 --> 00:19:48,581
Oh, we gotta change the headlines.

386
00:19:48,581 --> 00:19:51,251
Oh, we gotta change the copy, we gotta
change the images, blah, blah, blah.

387
00:19:51,371 --> 00:19:55,781
And so I do think it started to
get to a point where I felt like I

388
00:19:55,781 --> 00:19:59,861
was coming up with new ad creative
pretty much every two weeks.

389
00:20:00,101 --> 00:20:06,461
Um, new graphics, new photos, new
videos, new, um, you know, copy.

390
00:20:06,821 --> 00:20:10,571
And I was like, this is essentially,
you know, for me to be running ads and

391
00:20:10,576 --> 00:20:12,101
paying a bunch of money to do that.

392
00:20:12,911 --> 00:20:17,831
A obviously it's, it's profitable, but I
also wanna feel like it's saving me time.

393
00:20:18,161 --> 00:20:21,431
Like if I'm gonna be running that
many ads and paying for it, I wanna

394
00:20:21,431 --> 00:20:25,541
feel like it's, the trade off is that
I don't have to do anything live.

395
00:20:25,571 --> 00:20:29,861
Like I, and when, when we were
running ads, I wasn't publishing any

396
00:20:29,861 --> 00:20:31,601
free content, I wasn't publishing.

397
00:20:32,516 --> 00:20:33,236
Blog posts.

398
00:20:33,236 --> 00:20:36,836
I wasn't publishing like, there was
maybe a few, we did like a little

399
00:20:36,836 --> 00:20:39,566
experiment where we published some
blog posts and stuff like that,

400
00:20:39,566 --> 00:20:44,516
but, um, I wasn't publishing free
content, it was just running the ads.

401
00:20:44,576 --> 00:20:49,316
And so when it started to feel
like, oh, hey, now that ads are

402
00:20:49,316 --> 00:20:52,616
changing, I think there was like a
big algorithm update or whatever,

403
00:20:52,916 --> 00:20:54,866
and um, hey, ads are changing now.

404
00:20:54,866 --> 00:20:57,146
You have to come up with new,
fresh, you know, you have to come

405
00:20:57,146 --> 00:21:03,326
up with 10 new ad creatives and 20
variations of that ad every two weeks.

406
00:21:03,326 --> 00:21:05,426
And I was like, this is
just the equivalent of me

407
00:21:05,726 --> 00:21:08,546
making 40 Instagram posts.

408
00:21:08,546 --> 00:21:09,266
You know what I mean?

409
00:21:09,266 --> 00:21:09,896
So it's no

410
00:21:10,201 --> 00:21:11,546
Marie: Mariah's favorite activity

411
00:21:11,726 --> 00:21:12,266
Mariah: right,

412
00:21:12,416 --> 00:21:12,776
Marie: posts.

413
00:21:12,781 --> 00:21:12,866
Yeah.

414
00:21:12,926 --> 00:21:13,526
Mariah: exactly.

415
00:21:14,276 --> 00:21:18,356
I was like, this is no longer feeling
like it's that trade off, even

416
00:21:18,361 --> 00:21:21,656
though it's still, you know, still
profitable and all that good stuff.

417
00:21:21,656 --> 00:21:27,296
But when it comes to taking up my time,
I'm just like, even if it's profitable,

418
00:21:27,296 --> 00:21:29,156
I don't wanna spend time making.

419
00:21:29,966 --> 00:21:32,576
20 different captions every two weeks.

420
00:21:32,696 --> 00:21:36,776
So, but also we just change, you
know, we changed up our products a

421
00:21:36,776 --> 00:21:39,566
lot in the last, I mean, everything
about my business has completely

422
00:21:39,566 --> 00:21:41,096
restructured in the last 12 months.

423
00:21:41,096 --> 00:21:43,166
So,  so it all looks a lot different.

424
00:21:43,496 --> 00:21:46,046
Ben: I'd love to hear kind of like
what, what the structure of the

425
00:21:46,046 --> 00:21:50,006
current business is and maybe, maybe
one or two steps back from there.

426
00:21:50,126 --> 00:21:52,976
What that, what that transitional
journey has looked like for you.

427
00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:55,136
Mariah: Well, I wish I could answer
that 'cause I'm trying to figure out

428
00:21:55,141 --> 00:21:59,906
again myself, so, and maybe you could
tell me, uh, what it should look like.

429
00:21:59,911 --> 00:22:08,366
No, I, I am definitely, uh, have been
experimenting the last 12 months have been

430
00:22:08,366 --> 00:22:09,686
playing with a lot of different things.

431
00:22:09,686 --> 00:22:16,256
I will say we have, you know, the,
the short story is that from 20.

432
00:22:17,306 --> 00:22:19,436
From, well, how, how far back

433
00:22:19,491 --> 00:22:20,276
Marie: The Covid bubble.

434
00:22:20,276 --> 00:22:20,426
Yeah.

435
00:22:21,806 --> 00:22:22,196
Mariah: Yeah.

436
00:22:22,646 --> 00:22:22,826
Yeah.

437
00:22:22,826 --> 00:22:24,356
I think we, we can start back there.

438
00:22:24,356 --> 00:22:28,916
Like in, you know, I've been, I was
mostly, uh, selling more high touch,

439
00:22:29,576 --> 00:22:36,536
high ticket coaching programs starting
from 2018 through, uh, 2018 through 2020.

440
00:22:36,536 --> 00:22:39,236
We were specifically focused
on a program called The

441
00:22:39,236 --> 00:22:40,526
Accelerator, which you guys know.

442
00:22:40,826 --> 00:22:44,936
Um, and then we, and then in 2020
I launched what I thought was

443
00:22:44,936 --> 00:22:48,476
gonna be a very tiny mastermind
called High Ticket Hybrid.

444
00:22:48,806 --> 00:22:51,866
And I thought that through, I thought
within the course of an entire

445
00:22:51,866 --> 00:22:53,816
year, like 20 people would join.

446
00:22:54,146 --> 00:22:57,536
Um, but then a few months
later we had like 300 people.

447
00:22:57,911 --> 00:22:58,201
Yeah.

448
00:22:59,186 --> 00:23:01,226
I was like, wait, this
is not what I thought.

449
00:23:01,226 --> 00:23:06,716
And so the years of like 2020, like
for most online business owners, 2020

450
00:23:06,721 --> 00:23:14,576
through 20 21, 20 22 was just, uh,
sort of explosive growth and, um.

451
00:23:15,341 --> 00:23:22,211
We had our two sep, two different, uh,
very high touch, very like high delivery,

452
00:23:22,211 --> 00:23:28,541
high service, um, programs that required
a lot of overhead and a lot of client,

453
00:23:28,841 --> 00:23:33,251
uh, one-on-ones and like just ser it
was a service, you know what I mean?

454
00:23:33,251 --> 00:23:35,591
It wasn't like a digital
product that people can just

455
00:23:35,591 --> 00:23:37,661
download and do on their own.

456
00:23:38,081 --> 00:23:39,971
Um, very high touch service.

457
00:23:39,971 --> 00:23:42,491
And so we did that through, um.

458
00:23:43,196 --> 00:23:48,146
Through 2022 and I had
a team of 20 employees.

459
00:23:48,146 --> 00:23:51,146
I had, you know, a lot of things going on.

460
00:23:51,146 --> 00:23:53,966
We were doing these huge
virtual events like I mentioned.

461
00:23:54,236 --> 00:23:58,586
Um, it was really fun and I was
definitely in a riding a wave.

462
00:23:59,191 --> 00:24:01,496
I was definitely, definitely
like, woohoo, like

463
00:24:01,571 --> 00:24:02,166
Marie: Here we go.

464
00:24:02,366 --> 00:24:02,966
Mariah: energy.

465
00:24:03,236 --> 00:24:05,936
And I think for a lot of us, I mean
like I'd be super curious to hear

466
00:24:05,936 --> 00:24:11,756
about your guys' pandemic experience,
but for me, I was, so, I, I isolated

467
00:24:11,786 --> 00:24:14,396
completely for like two and a half years.

468
00:24:14,396 --> 00:24:18,446
Like, I didn't even, when it seemed like
other people were like loosening up and

469
00:24:18,446 --> 00:24:23,786
going out and like going on trips, I
was not, I was still 100% in my house.

470
00:24:23,906 --> 00:24:27,146
Did not leave, didn't, I didn't
do anything until, I didn't

471
00:24:27,146 --> 00:24:28,136
leave my house until like.

472
00:24:28,451 --> 00:24:29,681
June of 2022.

473
00:24:30,216 --> 00:24:32,951
So I was like super isolated.

474
00:24:32,951 --> 00:24:37,061
And so during those years, like, what
else was I gonna do other than be on

475
00:24:37,061 --> 00:24:39,551
Zoom all day with everybody, right?

476
00:24:39,551 --> 00:24:43,121
Like, oh my God, I needed more employees
so I had more people to talk to.

477
00:24:43,481 --> 00:24:47,745
I like, what else was I gonna do other
than like, make content and host calls

478
00:24:47,745 --> 00:24:52,125
and do these big events and like, just
all that stuff was what I think kept me

479
00:24:52,245 --> 00:24:58,845
engaged and like somewhat sane during
those years of isolation, was like really

480
00:24:58,845 --> 00:25:03,915
just, that was, that was my connection
to, to other people was being on calls

481
00:25:03,915 --> 00:25:07,635
all the time and hosting these events
virtually and doing all that stuff.

482
00:25:07,635 --> 00:25:12,195
Talking to clients constantly and just
like that, that was everything when,

483
00:25:12,315 --> 00:25:16,365
and it was really a distinct thing
where I went, I, I went on the first

484
00:25:16,365 --> 00:25:20,085
vacation I had been on in like two
and a half years, in June of 2022.

485
00:25:20,865 --> 00:25:23,745
I went on a little trip
and was like, oh, wow.

486
00:25:23,775 --> 00:25:25,125
Like I kind of forgot.

487
00:25:25,335 --> 00:25:28,755
I had done a really good job telling
myself that there was nothing good

488
00:25:28,755 --> 00:25:32,775
outside because of how else are you
gonna survive emotionally through a

489
00:25:32,780 --> 00:25:35,115
pandemic if you don't tell yourself that?

490
00:25:35,115 --> 00:25:37,365
Like, no, no, it's terrible out there.

491
00:25:37,365 --> 00:25:38,355
You don't wanna go out there.

492
00:25:38,355 --> 00:25:39,525
It's way better in here.

493
00:25:39,525 --> 00:25:41,205
Just like convincing yourself of that.

494
00:25:41,625 --> 00:25:42,375
And then.

495
00:25:43,125 --> 00:25:45,885
I went on a little trip
and was like, oh my God.

496
00:25:46,275 --> 00:25:50,565
Like I, I only, I, I have
so much to make up for.

497
00:25:50,565 --> 00:25:53,115
I have so much time to make up
for, I have so many things I

498
00:25:53,115 --> 00:25:56,745
wanna do and see and like, uh,
it's time to get outta the house.

499
00:25:56,825 --> 00:26:01,325
I started making very drastic changes
to my business in the summer of 2022.

500
00:26:02,195 --> 00:26:09,025
And by the end of 2022 had,
let go of my, almost my entire

501
00:26:09,025 --> 00:26:10,495
team, other than one person.

502
00:26:11,485 --> 00:26:12,145
And

503
00:26:12,505 --> 00:26:13,855
Marie: how did you get to that point?

504
00:26:13,855 --> 00:26:15,265
Like I guess, yeah, what was coming up?

505
00:26:15,265 --> 00:26:18,925
'cause you said you don't notice
when it goes to empty or whatever.

506
00:26:18,925 --> 00:26:20,635
So was there burnout involved?

507
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:21,445
Was there resentment?

508
00:26:21,450 --> 00:26:23,845
Like how did you get to that point
that you knew that was the right move?

509
00:26:23,845 --> 00:26:23,875
I.

510
00:26:24,180 --> 00:26:28,200
Mariah: There, there was a lot of things
that occurred all at the same time.

511
00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:32,100
So it's like I said, I went on
this trip and I was like, oh wow.

512
00:26:32,130 --> 00:26:32,610
Like.

513
00:26:33,105 --> 00:26:35,625
I actually need, I need more spaciousness.

514
00:26:35,625 --> 00:26:40,155
Like, I took a two week vacation and went
to Maine and, you know, uh, spent some

515
00:26:40,155 --> 00:26:47,385
time kind of out of my bubble and was
like, oh, in order for me to do this more,

516
00:26:47,595 --> 00:26:49,425
it was basically like, hi, a hiking trip.

517
00:26:49,425 --> 00:26:51,315
I like to hike, you
know, hiking every day.

518
00:26:51,315 --> 00:26:52,005
That's the thing.

519
00:26:52,095 --> 00:26:58,875
And so, um, I was like, in order for me to
hike every day and just have, uh, do this

520
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,685
differently, then like, I would really
have to change a lot of the structure

521
00:27:02,685 --> 00:27:04,245
of how things are set up right now.

522
00:27:04,545 --> 00:27:07,065
Um, and that was part of it.

523
00:27:07,070 --> 00:27:13,695
And then all these other factors came
in where at the same time I had, so

524
00:27:13,695 --> 00:27:19,725
my, my company structure within my 20
employees, me and then three directors,

525
00:27:19,845 --> 00:27:22,815
so like a VP and then a director of

526
00:27:23,385 --> 00:27:26,205
program and delivery, and the
director of sales and marketing,

527
00:27:26,625 --> 00:27:30,615
and those are like my three like
highest managers in the company.

528
00:27:30,975 --> 00:27:36,315
And all three of them for different
and personal reasons, ended up

529
00:27:36,315 --> 00:27:40,215
leaving their roles within like
a couple weeks of each other.

530
00:27:40,215 --> 00:27:43,845
So one of them was like
going to have another child.

531
00:27:43,845 --> 00:27:46,095
One of them was, you know,
about to go on parental leave.

532
00:27:46,095 --> 00:27:49,905
One of them moved to a different country,
uh, to be closer to their family.

533
00:27:49,905 --> 00:27:53,235
Like one of them, uh, was
going down to part-time.

534
00:27:53,235 --> 00:27:57,195
And so even though she stayed with
us, she like couldn't be a director

535
00:27:57,195 --> 00:27:59,085
because of the, her limited hours.

536
00:27:59,265 --> 00:28:05,115
So it was like all three of my, and these
are, these are people who had been the,

537
00:28:05,145 --> 00:28:08,325
the managers of my company for five years.

538
00:28:08,325 --> 00:28:11,565
Like, it wasn't like, you know, these
are people who've been in the company.

539
00:28:12,345 --> 00:28:15,645
Basically running the day to
day for a super long time.

540
00:28:15,645 --> 00:28:20,595
And so when the three of them, for totally
different personal reasons, transitioned

541
00:28:20,595 --> 00:28:26,580
out in a very short timeframe, it was
a moment where I was like, I can either

542
00:28:27,675 --> 00:28:33,435
replace this, you know, fill these roles,
replace all of these managers, which

543
00:28:33,435 --> 00:28:35,445
I knew would be extremely challenging.

544
00:28:35,450 --> 00:28:40,215
Like having people who have been in
the company since day one and had been

545
00:28:40,215 --> 00:28:44,775
with us for 5, 6, 7 years and then
like, you know, replacing that is just

546
00:28:44,775 --> 00:28:46,275
like, that's gonna be really hard.

547
00:28:46,983 --> 00:28:49,383
Marie: And time consuming,
which is what you wanted more

548
00:28:49,398 --> 00:28:51,798
Mariah: And yes, and like
I didn't wanna bring.

549
00:28:52,233 --> 00:28:56,013
I was, I'm always, I never really
wanna bring people in from the outside,

550
00:28:56,013 --> 00:28:59,433
but it didn't really make sense the
way that things were structured.

551
00:28:59,433 --> 00:29:02,643
It didn't really make sense to
fill those roles internally.

552
00:29:02,643 --> 00:29:04,383
It was just like a lot.

553
00:29:04,473 --> 00:29:07,253
And so I kind of had this moment
where I was like, I'm gonna take

554
00:29:07,253 --> 00:29:10,343
a take a step and I'm gonna pause.

555
00:29:10,703 --> 00:29:15,893
I'm not gonna rush to refill those
roles and I'm gonna see what happens and

556
00:29:15,893 --> 00:29:17,993
let's see like how we can do with that.

557
00:29:18,353 --> 00:29:23,093
I think at that point, with all these team
changes, people had come and gone by that

558
00:29:23,093 --> 00:29:25,134
point, we maybe had like 10 or 12 people.

559
00:29:26,103 --> 00:29:30,273
I think that was just kind of a
catalyst of then exploring of like,

560
00:29:30,333 --> 00:29:36,453
well, if I don't rehire for those
roles, what, and I'm having these

561
00:29:36,458 --> 00:29:40,083
thoughts about like, I need to
create more spaciousness in general.

562
00:29:40,088 --> 00:29:43,833
Like, the pandemic is not,
I'm not gonna be at my house.

563
00:29:44,178 --> 00:29:45,708
40 hours a week anymore.

564
00:29:45,948 --> 00:29:51,138
You know, like, I'm not gonna be will,
I'm not willing to be like doing all of

565
00:29:51,138 --> 00:29:56,148
that at my computer at that, even though
it's like when I ha when you have such

566
00:29:56,148 --> 00:30:00,048
a big team, you're not really doing a
lot, but you're just like there in case

567
00:30:00,048 --> 00:30:01,608
people need you, you know?

568
00:30:01,878 --> 00:30:02,268
Yeah.

569
00:30:02,273 --> 00:30:03,108
You're just coordinating.

570
00:30:03,138 --> 00:30:04,338
You're just there in Slack.

571
00:30:04,338 --> 00:30:06,408
Like people are messaging
you, asking you for stuff and

572
00:30:06,408 --> 00:30:09,588
asking you questions and you're
essentially coaching like your team.

573
00:30:09,858 --> 00:30:11,058
So I was doing a lot of that.

574
00:30:11,368 --> 00:30:14,453
It was like a moment where I was
like, this can, I can either just like

575
00:30:14,543 --> 00:30:16,523
hop back onto what I've been doing.

576
00:30:16,953 --> 00:30:19,953
Or I can take this as an
opportunity to really reassess.

577
00:30:20,043 --> 00:30:25,563
And I did reassess and ultimately
decided I wanted to create like some

578
00:30:25,563 --> 00:30:31,653
spaciousness in my calendar, in my, just
like the pace that we were going at.

579
00:30:31,658 --> 00:30:35,073
Again, if I was like, wow, that,
that vacation was really nice,

580
00:30:35,073 --> 00:30:37,563
it was really nice to be able
to like take off for two weeks.

581
00:30:37,803 --> 00:30:41,793
If I wanna do that, you know, more
often or I just wanna have a different

582
00:30:41,793 --> 00:30:45,723
schedule, then I'm gonna have to make
different change, different changes to

583
00:30:45,753 --> 00:30:49,143
the way that our programs are delivered,
the way that we structure things, what

584
00:30:49,143 --> 00:30:51,333
we sell, what our team looks like.

585
00:30:51,663 --> 00:30:58,803
Um, and so it took, you know, obviously
months to actually like figure out,

586
00:30:58,833 --> 00:31:03,363
there's definitely a few months of
just kind of stasis of like, we're not

587
00:31:03,368 --> 00:31:07,383
gonna rehire for those roles, but let's
just like keep doing what we're doing

588
00:31:07,383 --> 00:31:09,123
and, and see how it goes without them.

589
00:31:09,183 --> 00:31:14,073
And then slowly realizing like,
okay, I think the next, I think

590
00:31:14,073 --> 00:31:16,053
what I really need is like.

591
00:31:17,288 --> 00:31:21,038
Truly just time to like
experiment and play and figure

592
00:31:21,038 --> 00:31:22,958
things out and try new things.

593
00:31:23,228 --> 00:31:27,248
Because one thing that happens when you
have a bigger team and you've been doing

594
00:31:27,248 --> 00:31:32,738
something so successfully for so long
in a very specific way, is I definitely

595
00:31:32,738 --> 00:31:38,168
noticed that I got a little trapped in
this idea of like, this is what works.

596
00:31:38,318 --> 00:31:41,438
This is how we do it, this
is what creates the results.

597
00:31:41,438 --> 00:31:43,238
Like it was all very predictable.

598
00:31:43,268 --> 00:31:47,408
It was like you run the ads, you get
this many clicks, this many people enter

599
00:31:47,408 --> 00:31:51,308
the funnel, this is our conversion rate
and this like, this is how it works.

600
00:31:51,338 --> 00:31:56,018
And, and everyone in the company
has a role that is very specifically

601
00:31:56,018 --> 00:31:58,838
tied to that system, right?

602
00:31:58,838 --> 00:32:03,188
Like they're like, that person does
this role and it causes this part of the

603
00:32:03,193 --> 00:32:04,778
system and this person does this role.

604
00:32:04,778 --> 00:32:07,328
When someone joins the program
and this person does this

605
00:32:07,328 --> 00:32:09,218
role, you can't change it.

606
00:32:09,548 --> 00:32:12,578
Without changing everyone's
jobs, you know what I mean?

607
00:32:12,578 --> 00:32:16,478
So I can't like launch a new product
because I have an idea for something.

608
00:32:17,138 --> 00:32:21,548
I mean, I could do something small, but
I couldn't really make like changes like

609
00:32:21,548 --> 00:32:26,288
that because it's like that's what what
everyone is roles are like attached to.

610
00:32:26,528 --> 00:32:27,548
Exactly, yeah.

611
00:32:27,548 --> 00:32:31,238
And they're attached to like, that
pers that function of the system.

612
00:32:31,508 --> 00:32:36,248
And so I definitely got stuck in
this idea of like, this is the

613
00:32:36,248 --> 00:32:37,988
only, this is the way we do it.

614
00:32:37,988 --> 00:32:39,368
This is how it works.

615
00:32:39,728 --> 00:32:44,078
And I just felt like, I think
that there's a huge difference.

616
00:32:44,648 --> 00:32:47,948
I'm sure you guys know this, there's
a huge difference between what I would

617
00:32:47,948 --> 00:32:54,788
call a creator founder versus A CEO and
having gotten to the point where like.

618
00:32:55,148 --> 00:32:59,618
We got like the Inc 5,000 fastest
growing companies in America.

619
00:32:59,618 --> 00:33:03,998
Like we did all this stuff, we hit
all these milestones and I thought,

620
00:33:04,083 --> 00:33:06,368
I, I, I genu, I thought I was a CEO.

621
00:33:06,398 --> 00:33:09,248
Like I thought I was CEO
material at that point.

622
00:33:09,608 --> 00:33:14,258
But then when we hit 5 million
in a year, and I thought, okay,

623
00:33:14,258 --> 00:33:15,848
so next year we'll go to 10.

624
00:33:16,298 --> 00:33:19,418
And I was like, uh, no,
that's not what I want.

625
00:33:19,718 --> 00:33:21,668
I was like, I don't, I don't want, I

626
00:33:21,743 --> 00:33:21,983
Marie: wanna

627
00:33:21,988 --> 00:33:22,733
make more shit.

628
00:33:23,078 --> 00:33:23,528
Mariah: right?

629
00:33:23,528 --> 00:33:25,778
I wanna make, I wanna break things.

630
00:33:26,293 --> 00:33:29,078
Like, not only do I wanna
make shit, I wanna break shit.

631
00:33:29,078 --> 00:33:30,908
I want to do that I'm a creator.

632
00:33:31,208 --> 00:33:35,378
And having this like total identity
crisis of being like, oh shit, I

633
00:33:35,378 --> 00:33:39,668
thought I was a CEO manager person.

634
00:33:39,673 --> 00:33:43,328
And I, you know, I still am
like best, best friends with

635
00:33:43,333 --> 00:33:44,918
pretty much all of my employees.

636
00:33:45,188 --> 00:33:49,358
Um, and so I definitely, like,
I know that people will say.

637
00:33:50,183 --> 00:33:51,773
Mariah, you were a great manager.

638
00:33:51,773 --> 00:33:55,343
You were, and I don't say that to like
toot my own horn, but like I know that

639
00:33:55,343 --> 00:34:00,053
what we had in terms of a company culture
was extremely rare and very special.

640
00:34:00,803 --> 00:34:04,733
And I enjoyed and loved working with
the humans that I got to work with.

641
00:34:04,738 --> 00:34:07,673
And I, like I said, I'm still
like very, very close friends

642
00:34:07,673 --> 00:34:08,663
with pretty much all of them.

643
00:34:08,663 --> 00:34:16,733
I think that me slowly coming to this
like realization of, I think I, I think

644
00:34:16,738 --> 00:34:21,743
I wanna do creator stuff again, which
is not really conducive to being the CEO

645
00:34:21,743 --> 00:34:26,693
of a company with a lot of employees and
people who need to know what's happening

646
00:34:26,693 --> 00:34:29,033
next quarter so they can plan accordingly.

647
00:34:29,453 --> 00:34:34,193
Um, and so in, yeah, so by the
beginning of 2023, it's just me

648
00:34:34,643 --> 00:34:39,923
and one other person and, uh, he's
my like, ride or die just like we

649
00:34:40,118 --> 00:34:41,498
Marie: So you shrank down to two.

650
00:34:41,558 --> 00:34:41,828
That's

651
00:34:42,248 --> 00:34:42,728
Mariah: Yep.

652
00:34:42,788 --> 00:34:43,028
Yeah.

653
00:34:43,028 --> 00:34:47,498
Me and one other person and,
uh, and, and that has given me

654
00:34:47,498 --> 00:34:51,698
the space to just experiment and
try so many different things.

655
00:34:52,088 --> 00:34:53,768
It's like, I don't know
what we're doing next month.

656
00:34:53,768 --> 00:34:54,668
We'll figure it out.

657
00:34:55,028 --> 00:34:59,948
And so I think identifying like kind
of coming back to, I guess, you know,

658
00:34:59,948 --> 00:35:04,178
my, my roots or whatever of like
starting this business as a creator.

659
00:35:04,178 --> 00:35:07,178
And I think so many of us, this is
something I, I've been thinking about

660
00:35:07,178 --> 00:35:08,888
a lot, I've been writing about a lot.

661
00:35:09,338 --> 00:35:13,568
It'd be great to like publish some ideas
about it, but I think there's just.

662
00:35:13,883 --> 00:35:18,473
There's just this, this place where our
paths diverge and you're either like a

663
00:35:18,473 --> 00:35:23,153
creator, founder, where you have that
like entrepreneurial spirit where you

664
00:35:23,153 --> 00:35:28,943
want to like create a new thing all the
time or you discover like, I've also

665
00:35:28,943 --> 00:35:32,033
had the pleasure of working with people
who really discovered that there's

666
00:35:32,033 --> 00:35:35,483
zone of genius is being a true CEO.

667
00:35:35,513 --> 00:35:38,813
Like they actually really enjoy
the manager part of it and they

668
00:35:38,813 --> 00:35:42,863
really find their like zone of
genius in that experience of

669
00:35:42,863 --> 00:35:45,443
becoming a manager, becoming a CEO.

670
00:35:45,623 --> 00:35:49,523
Just taking something that's working
and continuing to refine it is like

671
00:35:49,553 --> 00:35:53,393
they're so genius at that, have
lots of friends who are like that.

672
00:35:54,143 --> 00:35:56,543
But I think for me, I was like, huh.

673
00:35:56,633 --> 00:36:01,733
I guess at the end of the day, like
I can only really CEO for so long

674
00:36:01,733 --> 00:36:07,523
before I just really wanna make and
break stuff and like try new things,

675
00:36:07,668 --> 00:36:09,528
rather than maintaining and managing.

676
00:36:10,083 --> 00:36:11,283
Marie: Where did you hear that framing?

677
00:36:11,283 --> 00:36:14,613
Because I, I think sometimes even just
hearing a framing like that, like, oh,

678
00:36:14,613 --> 00:36:18,123
there are CEOs and there are creators
cEOs is so permission giving, and

679
00:36:18,123 --> 00:36:19,203
you're like, oh, that's the thing.

680
00:36:19,208 --> 00:36:20,673
I, I just didn't know it had a name.

681
00:36:20,673 --> 00:36:21,603
Like, it's okay.

682
00:36:21,843 --> 00:36:25,413
It's like how did you, I guess, arrive
at that conclusion and realizing

683
00:36:25,418 --> 00:36:27,093
there was a different path for you?

684
00:36:28,188 --> 00:36:29,298
Mariah: That's a good question.

685
00:36:29,358 --> 00:36:33,228
Probably just lots of crying,
lots of feeling like a failure.

686
00:36:33,363 --> 00:36:33,603
Marie: Oh

687
00:36:33,708 --> 00:36:35,478
Mariah: wondering what's wrong with me?

688
00:36:35,958 --> 00:36:38,898
Why can't I just keep doing this
thing that's successful that

689
00:36:38,898 --> 00:36:39,979
everyone wants me to keep doing?

690
00:36:41,208 --> 00:36:44,598
Um, and then, yeah, I, I don't know.

691
00:36:44,603 --> 00:36:45,588
I That's a great point.

692
00:36:45,593 --> 00:36:49,338
I don't know where, you know, that sort
of moment happens where you're just like,

693
00:36:49,878 --> 00:36:55,578
I guess, you know, I think, I think I
was, I felt so lonely going through that.

694
00:36:55,638 --> 00:37:00,588
Like I felt, thank God for my
best friends who like, are like,

695
00:37:00,588 --> 00:37:04,488
I could talk to about that stuff,
but still like,  from a business

696
00:37:04,488 --> 00:37:06,348
owner perspective, I felt so lonely.

697
00:37:06,353 --> 00:37:09,798
And I felt like, am I the only
person who's like actually

698
00:37:09,798 --> 00:37:11,448
realizing that I enjoy?

699
00:37:11,778 --> 00:37:15,468
Do you know how there's all this
rhetoric about like, you can only do

700
00:37:15,473 --> 00:37:20,178
CEO tasks, or like you can only do
like thousand dollar an hour tasks

701
00:37:20,178 --> 00:37:21,648
and you should delegate the rest.

702
00:37:22,248 --> 00:37:23,868
I love doing bullshit.

703
00:37:23,988 --> 00:37:25,788
I love doing bullshit tasks.

704
00:37:25,818 --> 00:37:26,418
Like I

705
00:37:26,418 --> 00:37:26,988
want to

706
00:37:27,213 --> 00:37:27,873
Marie: pages

707
00:37:27,873 --> 00:37:28,413
and, yeah.

708
00:37:28,878 --> 00:37:31,278
Mariah: let me, let me fuck
around with a landing page.

709
00:37:31,278 --> 00:37:32,118
Let me do this.

710
00:37:32,118 --> 00:37:34,818
Let, like, let me, I
wanna write my own emails.

711
00:37:34,818 --> 00:37:37,818
I wanna do like, I like setting
shit up on the back end.

712
00:37:37,818 --> 00:37:39,168
Like, let me do that.

713
00:37:39,528 --> 00:37:45,078
And I think, you know, when you
just kind of are feeling like, am

714
00:37:45,078 --> 00:37:49,938
I, that is not, that is not what
a CEO is going to keep doing.

715
00:37:50,238 --> 00:37:54,138
And there's a lot of like playing pretend
with that, of being like, okay, like

716
00:37:54,143 --> 00:38:00,558
I'm, I'm only gonna do CEO tasks now, but
realizing that I missed making the like.

717
00:38:01,278 --> 00:38:02,148
Fun stuff.

718
00:38:02,148 --> 00:38:05,778
Like I miss making my own sales
pages and making my own, you

719
00:38:05,778 --> 00:38:10,338
know, uh, everything and just
doing all the little dirt details.

720
00:38:10,608 --> 00:38:15,228
Um, and I think at the time, like I said,
I felt very lonely going through that

721
00:38:15,228 --> 00:38:16,878
and like I was probably the only one.

722
00:38:17,388 --> 00:38:23,238
But since then, I feel like now we've
seen tons of people on YouTube or

723
00:38:23,268 --> 00:38:25,758
talking about this, where people have.

724
00:38:26,463 --> 00:38:32,883
Downsized their teams or downsized their
businesses or talked about, like realizing

725
00:38:33,093 --> 00:38:38,583
that they wanted to get back to the
place of being a creator and less so a

726
00:38:38,763 --> 00:38:45,213
business owner first or less so like a
manager and a CEO and more so a creator.

727
00:38:45,213 --> 00:38:49,233
Whether that means that's for them, that
was writing or making YouTube videos

728
00:38:49,233 --> 00:38:54,453
or podcasting or whatever it was, it's
like you kind of start as a creator

729
00:38:54,753 --> 00:38:56,763
and then you become a business owner.

730
00:38:57,003 --> 00:39:02,163
But I now, I feel like there's lots
of us that have realized, oh, we

731
00:39:02,163 --> 00:39:09,093
actually kind of wanna stay, stay in
our creator lane, um, as much as we can.

732
00:39:09,183 --> 00:39:12,513
There's always gonna be
business stuff, but you know,

733
00:39:13,023 --> 00:39:15,543
more, more 80% creator stuff.

734
00:39:15,938 --> 00:39:18,398
Marie: I think we can both
Ben and I can relate to that.

735
00:39:18,398 --> 00:39:21,968
I mean, I think Ben got away from coding
for a long time and it's this like,

736
00:39:21,968 --> 00:39:25,118
yeah, I'm a business owner, but also
I really just love programming things.

737
00:39:25,118 --> 00:39:25,958
I love building things.

738
00:39:25,958 --> 00:39:27,038
I love making software.

739
00:39:27,038 --> 00:39:28,898
What if I wanna build
a side project for fun?

740
00:39:28,898 --> 00:39:31,178
Like, why can't I build our own tools?

741
00:39:31,183 --> 00:39:33,398
This is what, you know, gets me lit up.

742
00:39:33,398 --> 00:39:38,108
And so it's funny how we, we go into
entrepreneurship to have independence and

743
00:39:38,108 --> 00:39:40,838
freedom, then we end up creating our own
little jail and being like, wait, what?

744
00:39:40,838 --> 00:39:43,838
Why did I, why did I make
these walls for myself?

745
00:39:44,018 --> 00:39:45,308
It can be different, right?

746
00:39:45,718 --> 00:39:46,793
Mariah: And you don't know it..

747
00:39:46,823 --> 00:39:48,953
Like you don't know until you reach that.

748
00:39:48,953 --> 00:39:53,333
And like I said, I had no, there's
no part of me that thought that like,

749
00:39:53,393 --> 00:39:58,103
oh, I'm going down a path that like
isn't gonna end up where I want it to.

750
00:39:58,103 --> 00:40:01,973
Or like, oh, this is like, I'm gonna
one day realize that I actually, and,

751
00:40:02,033 --> 00:40:04,373
and all of this is, feels so temporary.

752
00:40:04,433 --> 00:40:05,963
You know what all of this feels like.

753
00:40:06,623 --> 00:40:11,363
Uh, the way that I am feeling today
where I'm like, Ooh, I really just

754
00:40:11,363 --> 00:40:16,583
want space to like, build things and
explore and experiment, try things

755
00:40:16,643 --> 00:40:21,383
without necessarily them having to be
this like perfectly optimized machine.

756
00:40:21,983 --> 00:40:24,473
I could feel very differently
about that in two years.

757
00:40:24,473 --> 00:40:24,803
Right.

758
00:40:24,803 --> 00:40:28,343
And I don't pretend that I'm gonna
feel the same way about that.

759
00:40:28,343 --> 00:40:31,133
Who knows, maybe two years from
now I'm like, yeah, I'm ready to

760
00:40:31,193 --> 00:40:34,313
do this thing again, or I'm ready
to do it differently or whatever.

761
00:40:34,703 --> 00:40:39,713
Um, but I think, I think it's just, you
know, I don't, I don't think it's, any of

762
00:40:39,713 --> 00:40:44,063
it is permanent in terms of like, oh no,
this is at least, I don't know, maybe for

763
00:40:44,063 --> 00:40:48,683
other people, but at least for me, I'm
like, this is, this is who I am today, but

764
00:40:48,683 --> 00:40:50,813
I don't know who I'll be a year from now.

765
00:40:51,053 --> 00:40:52,223
So who knows?

766
00:40:52,413 --> 00:40:57,868
But it feels like there's not necessarily
like, oh, okay, this is who I am at my

767
00:40:57,868 --> 00:41:02,308
core and therefore I will never change
or experience something different.

768
00:41:02,758 --> 00:41:03,328
Um.

769
00:41:03,658 --> 00:41:07,768
It very well may, but yeah, there's
definitely no part of me that was

770
00:41:07,768 --> 00:41:11,548
like, oh, this is not, you know,
this is gonna become overwhelming or

771
00:41:11,548 --> 00:41:16,108
this is gonna, this isn't conducive
to like my creator personality or

772
00:41:16,108 --> 00:41:19,978
anything, until I just kind of like
hit me over the head one day, I guess.

773
00:41:21,043 --> 00:41:21,913
Ben: Yeah, I wanna say.

774
00:41:23,188 --> 00:41:30,928
that the marker of the creator CEO role is
some sense of elasticity and optionality.

775
00:41:31,468 --> 00:41:36,868
Um, what I've noticed, and at the end
of last year, Marie and I went down from

776
00:41:36,898 --> 00:41:39,238
three to two, just the two of us again.

777
00:41:39,568 --> 00:41:43,378
And so, and that forced us into doing
support emails again 'cause we were

778
00:41:43,378 --> 00:41:46,018
not maintaining our support inbox and,

779
00:41:46,828 --> 00:41:51,058
I don't actually like doing support
emails so much, but being in that

780
00:41:51,058 --> 00:41:54,298
inbox again made the business feel
so much more alive to me again.

781
00:41:54,298 --> 00:41:58,468
And I started noticing all these patterns
and things that I was not aware of.

782
00:41:58,498 --> 00:42:02,458
Uh, that made, made me more interested
in, well, what could we do differently

783
00:42:02,458 --> 00:42:04,528
here and how could we optimize this?

784
00:42:04,528 --> 00:42:09,418
And now we have like a sense of, a much
more sense of people are being supported

785
00:42:09,418 --> 00:42:15,228
in a very, very, real way, uh, because
the two of us are actually taking turns

786
00:42:15,228 --> 00:42:19,368
on answering people, and it's a little
more distributed now than it was when

787
00:42:19,368 --> 00:42:21,558
we initially took over that inbox.

788
00:42:21,978 --> 00:42:27,018
So I love that the spaciousness is like,
you know, maybe flexing in and out.

789
00:42:27,018 --> 00:42:29,838
And that elasticity allows
you to go from, you know.

790
00:42:30,103 --> 00:42:34,153
10 people to one person and back
and notice what's different.

791
00:42:34,483 --> 00:42:38,533
So it's this, it's this observational
phases and you talk about the seasons,

792
00:42:38,533 --> 00:42:42,253
and I think those observational
season seasons are really important to

793
00:42:42,253 --> 00:42:44,683
notice what works when it's just me.

794
00:42:44,743 --> 00:42:48,973
What works when it's 20 people,
and then being able to quickly

795
00:42:49,033 --> 00:42:50,533
transition between those things.

796
00:42:50,828 --> 00:42:53,978
Because sometimes stuff happens and
you have to take over a role that

797
00:42:53,978 --> 00:42:56,348
you maybe weren't doing the next day.

798
00:42:56,348 --> 00:42:59,468
And so that elasticity allows
you to really effectively

799
00:42:59,468 --> 00:43:00,968
move from different roles.

800
00:43:00,968 --> 00:43:06,218
So yeah, the creator, CEO is definitely,
you know, when you're, when you're,

801
00:43:06,248 --> 00:43:10,268
when you're managing 20 people,
you don't really have that, that

802
00:43:10,268 --> 00:43:13,778
flexibility or the spaciousness to
be like, I'm gonna do support today.

803
00:43:13,808 --> 00:43:16,028
'cause then somebody's gonna be like,
Hey, you're stepping on my toes.

804
00:43:16,063 --> 00:43:16,753
Mariah: Exactly.

805
00:43:16,993 --> 00:43:21,283
Yeah, that would be the worst if you to
get in there and someone would be like,

806
00:43:21,283 --> 00:43:23,143
why do you hate the way I do my job?

807
00:43:23,533 --> 00:43:24,853
You'd be like, no, that's not it.

808
00:43:24,853 --> 00:43:25,573
I'm just bored.

809
00:43:25,963 --> 00:43:29,961
Like, yeah, no, that, we always would
like create things like that where it's

810
00:43:29,961 --> 00:43:32,031
like, oh yeah, let me get in over there.

811
00:43:32,036 --> 00:43:33,381
Like, what's going on over here?

812
00:43:33,381 --> 00:43:37,731
But really like when you have that sort of
team, you just need to let other people do

813
00:43:37,761 --> 00:43:41,091
what they do, um, and do, do their jobs.

814
00:43:41,151 --> 00:43:42,021
But it's so interesting.

815
00:43:42,021 --> 00:43:43,011
I love the way that you.

816
00:43:43,431 --> 00:43:46,551
Specifically phrase that as elasticity.

817
00:43:46,821 --> 00:43:50,121
That's, I think that's aligned with
what I was trying to say is like, I, it

818
00:43:50,121 --> 00:43:54,441
doesn't feel like, oh, this is how I'll
always be, or this permanence, but just

819
00:43:54,951 --> 00:44:01,641
that ability, knowing that you can and
probably will move back and forth like

820
00:44:01,851 --> 00:44:03,561
a, like the pendulum or whatever, right.

821
00:44:03,591 --> 00:44:07,791
Where you can just fluctuate through
those things and not make it mean

822
00:44:08,481 --> 00:44:10,431
anything about you as a person too.

823
00:44:10,461 --> 00:44:14,121
Because I definitely think like,
you know, you can have feelings of

824
00:44:14,121 --> 00:44:19,161
failure or not meeting other people's
expectations or like you let people down.

825
00:44:19,491 --> 00:44:20,046
At the end of the

826
00:44:20,046 --> 00:44:23,436
day, it's like you gotta, you
gotta explore, explore new things.

827
00:44:24,156 --> 00:44:24,516
Ben: Yeah.

828
00:44:24,666 --> 00:44:27,666
I love the pendulum metaphor too,
because I've always thought of it as,

829
00:44:27,756 --> 00:44:30,906
oh, the pendulum swing, and it's like
you're imagining it sort of a, as a

830
00:44:30,906 --> 00:44:32,916
wrecking ball as it goes back and forth.

831
00:44:32,916 --> 00:44:36,036
But then I try to think of it as more
of like, oh, you ride the pendulum.

832
00:44:36,036 --> 00:44:39,576
So it's like we, like, you know,
the, the change is actually, yeah.

833
00:44:39,606 --> 00:44:41,496
Is actually really enjoyable.

834
00:44:41,496 --> 00:44:44,496
Swinging back and forth to
those extremes along the way.

835
00:44:44,901 --> 00:44:45,981
Mariah: Yes, yes.

836
00:44:45,981 --> 00:44:46,521
I love that.

837
00:44:46,526 --> 00:44:47,961
Yes, it should, it should be fun.

838
00:44:48,231 --> 00:44:48,681
That's the thing.

839
00:44:48,686 --> 00:44:53,661
I mean, like so many people take
themselves so seriously and I just

840
00:44:53,661 --> 00:44:57,201
would like to have fun and explore.

841
00:44:57,201 --> 00:45:01,251
I love to make things, love to build
things, love to unbuild things,

842
00:45:01,581 --> 00:45:05,451
uh, love to rebuild things much to
everyone's dismay, and I just think

843
00:45:05,451 --> 00:45:08,121
everyone should expect it to change.

844
00:45:08,151 --> 00:45:13,881
Like I've really, I think I've really had
to set some reset expectations with just

845
00:45:13,881 --> 00:45:18,861
like people in general and just been like,
you should always expect me to change.

846
00:45:18,861 --> 00:45:21,531
You should always expect me to evolve.

847
00:45:21,891 --> 00:45:28,491
Like it's very frustrating when people,
which could just be the general public

848
00:45:28,496 --> 00:45:33,921
or people that you interact with when
some of them do not like when you

849
00:45:34,551 --> 00:45:38,331
shift or change or evolve, or like
you have a new idea and it's different

850
00:45:38,331 --> 00:45:43,611
than your old idea and you can just,
again, as a creator, that feels very

851
00:45:43,611 --> 00:45:48,351
suffocating and like hemming you in
when you just want to be like, well,

852
00:45:48,411 --> 00:45:52,816
everyone should always expect that
every year, maybe every six months I'm

853
00:45:52,816 --> 00:45:58,641
gonna go through a total reinvention
and it will look totally different.

854
00:45:58,821 --> 00:46:01,941
So if you're like, oh, I want
something that's really consistent,

855
00:46:02,361 --> 00:46:05,181
or I wanna like, I don't know.

856
00:46:05,181 --> 00:46:05,631
You know what I mean?

857
00:46:05,631 --> 00:46:08,811
It's like, if you just want me to
like be doing the same thing 10 years

858
00:46:08,811 --> 00:46:10,401
from now, then like, don't follow me.

859
00:46:10,461 --> 00:46:11,211
'cause I won't be

860
00:46:11,781 --> 00:46:13,701
like I will disappoint you.

861
00:46:14,046 --> 00:46:15,486
Marie: It's okay to outgrow.

862
00:46:15,546 --> 00:46:18,546
Like if my stuff isn't resonating
with you anymore, you can

863
00:46:18,546 --> 00:46:19,776
hit that unsubscribe button.

864
00:46:19,776 --> 00:46:23,076
So there's like a weird audacity
that people are like, I don't

865
00:46:23,076 --> 00:46:24,846
like the copy on your sales page.

866
00:46:24,846 --> 00:46:26,436
And you're like, that's okay.

867
00:46:27,246 --> 00:46:27,486
Right?

868
00:46:27,486 --> 00:46:28,056
It's, it's

869
00:46:28,251 --> 00:46:28,821
Mariah: Bye.

870
00:46:29,416 --> 00:46:29,706
Yeah.

871
00:46:30,656 --> 00:46:30,946
Yeah.

872
00:46:31,443 --> 00:46:32,923
Ben: I really like the, I.

873
00:46:33,433 --> 00:46:37,723
You seem to have this sort of, um, more
than just a creator, but you're also

874
00:46:37,723 --> 00:46:41,743
talking about like this identity as a
destroyer or a, or, you know, this kind

875
00:46:41,748 --> 00:46:46,213
of, you know, we always, we are always
talking about creativity and, and, and it

876
00:46:46,213 --> 00:46:49,813
being, making new things all the time and
what's the next thing we're making and,

877
00:46:49,818 --> 00:46:54,583
uh, I like that you're, you're having this
like disassembly as part of your identity.

878
00:46:54,583 --> 00:46:55,033
Yeah.

879
00:46:55,333 --> 00:46:57,403
Mariah: Yeah, that could
be like my wrestling name.

880
00:46:57,793 --> 00:46:58,963
I love wrestling.

881
00:46:59,353 --> 00:47:00,973
Yeah, that would be great.

882
00:47:01,453 --> 00:47:03,433
Um, thank you for pointing that out, Ben.

883
00:47:03,438 --> 00:47:04,903
That's actually like very profound.

884
00:47:04,903 --> 00:47:06,763
I'm gonna journal about that later.

885
00:47:06,853 --> 00:47:10,003
I didn't even catch that, but
that's a really good point.

886
00:47:10,423 --> 00:47:14,683
And I do feel like it's just
as much my job to un unbuild

887
00:47:14,683 --> 00:47:20,233
things and destroy things and
yeah, dismantle and like, um, just

888
00:47:20,233 --> 00:47:24,163
re rearrange things all the time.

889
00:47:24,523 --> 00:47:27,463
Um, and that's so part,
so much a part of it.

890
00:47:27,463 --> 00:47:31,043
I mean, you really can't  especially
without like, what do they call it?

891
00:47:31,043 --> 00:47:33,593
Like the fertile ground of failure.

892
00:47:34,403 --> 00:47:38,453
You really can't like do
anything, you know, you really do.

893
00:47:38,453 --> 00:47:44,153
Sometimes it's gotta burn it down so that
new plants can grow there, as we know.

894
00:47:44,213 --> 00:47:45,413
'cause we're permaculture people.

895
00:47:45,518 --> 00:47:46,448
Marie: exactly.

896
00:47:46,698 --> 00:47:46,918
Mariah: Yes.

897
00:47:47,948 --> 00:47:51,338
Marie: Another reason I'm sure that a
lot of your, your language resonated

898
00:47:51,338 --> 00:47:56,648
with me and, um, and I appreciated you
modeling those changes in real time.

899
00:47:56,678 --> 00:47:59,378
Like you would be teaching one thing
and then you'd be like, you know

900
00:47:59,378 --> 00:48:01,868
what, we tried this, we noticed
this isn't working anymore, so

901
00:48:01,868 --> 00:48:03,098
here's what we're doing instead.

902
00:48:03,103 --> 00:48:07,778
So there was this really interesting
real time, Hey, I don't have to have all

903
00:48:07,778 --> 00:48:10,928
the answers, but I'm sharing with you
what I'm learning as I'm learning it.

904
00:48:10,933 --> 00:48:15,158
And that was a very different model than
a lot of the sort of guru with an online

905
00:48:15,158 --> 00:48:17,138
course authority figure type thing.

906
00:48:17,138 --> 00:48:20,618
It was a very different, almost
like as a peer, you're like,

907
00:48:20,618 --> 00:48:24,458
let me show you in behind the
scenes of what's working for us.

908
00:48:24,458 --> 00:48:27,158
And I just, I really appreciated
that very different approach.

909
00:48:27,158 --> 00:48:30,938
It was, again, very permission giving
that like, you can do this differently

910
00:48:30,943 --> 00:48:32,468
in a way that aligns with you.

911
00:48:32,923 --> 00:48:35,833
Ben: I also got to sort of experience
whenever Marie would be in the

912
00:48:35,833 --> 00:48:40,453
kitchen during Hi, her high ticket
hybrid experience was hearing all

913
00:48:40,453 --> 00:48:43,123
of these different people talking
about their different businesses.

914
00:48:43,128 --> 00:48:47,238
And I was like, oh damn, this is like,
the value here is just you are being

915
00:48:47,968 --> 00:48:52,048
set up, aligned, integrated
with so many different ways of

916
00:48:52,048 --> 00:48:55,108
thinking and so many different,
incredibly successful businesses.

917
00:48:55,318 --> 00:48:59,038
'cause there is a value to having
a price point where we're expecting

918
00:48:59,038 --> 00:49:02,038
most of the people that are in the
program to have a certain success,

919
00:49:02,128 --> 00:49:05,758
uh, level of their business already
to be able to afford that high ticket.

920
00:49:06,268 --> 00:49:08,308
Um, so that was just
so interesting to see.

921
00:49:08,308 --> 00:49:08,848
Oh, wow.

922
00:49:08,848 --> 00:49:12,508
Like the value here is actually
the, the evolution of a community

923
00:49:12,508 --> 00:49:13,738
rather than it being like.

924
00:49:13,868 --> 00:49:16,568
A fixed curriculum thing
that everybody is doing.

925
00:49:16,568 --> 00:49:20,648
It's like, what is working of that
curriculum for all of these people?

926
00:49:20,768 --> 00:49:22,208
That was super interesting to see.

927
00:49:22,543 --> 00:49:23,233
Mariah: That's such a good point.

928
00:49:23,233 --> 00:49:26,743
Like it's just how it's being
applied and customized to everybody.

929
00:49:27,013 --> 00:49:31,133
And I think that's where, you
know,  these programs are alive.

930
00:49:31,193 --> 00:49:35,603
Like they're little organisms that
continue to change and evolve and

931
00:49:35,603 --> 00:49:40,283
shift all the time, which is why
passive income is fake and not real

932
00:49:40,463 --> 00:49:43,613
because people who are like, create
a course, it's passive income.

933
00:49:43,618 --> 00:49:45,773
Meanwhile, people like
us are like updating our

934
00:49:45,773 --> 00:49:50,003
courses every three months, rerecording
everything, being like, oh yeah,

935
00:49:50,003 --> 00:49:52,493
here's a better way to do things
and here's this and here's that.

936
00:49:52,493 --> 00:49:55,793
And like, let's do a workshop
about what a, this new experiment.

937
00:49:55,793 --> 00:49:59,243
And like, I just think all those
programs, those courses, those

938
00:49:59,243 --> 00:50:01,163
digital products, they are alive.

939
00:50:01,193 --> 00:50:03,563
They're always changing,
they're always being updated.

940
00:50:03,893 --> 00:50:05,753
Um, and it's, I mean, it's rare.

941
00:50:05,783 --> 00:50:08,333
There's, there's some stuff
that I think can be like.

942
00:50:09,098 --> 00:50:13,478
You know, it's a timeless principle
and it doesn't change that much.

943
00:50:13,718 --> 00:50:17,168
But I think for, you know, I
know you guys, I'm sure with your

944
00:50:17,168 --> 00:50:20,618
programs have to do the same thing
where it just has to be kept.

945
00:50:20,648 --> 00:50:22,538
It's a, it's a living organism.

946
00:50:22,538 --> 00:50:25,508
It has to be kept, uh,
updated all the time.

947
00:50:25,868 --> 00:50:29,858
And that's also part of it where it's
like, if you get to the point where

948
00:50:29,863 --> 00:50:35,018
you're like, I am not excited about
updating this particular piece of

949
00:50:35,018 --> 00:50:38,138
it or this particular version of it.

950
00:50:38,408 --> 00:50:40,688
I wanna build some, I
wanna build a new thing.

951
00:50:40,688 --> 00:50:44,468
And sometimes it gets to that point
where you're like, I've been updating

952
00:50:44,648 --> 00:50:49,358
this, but I think it's ready for
like, a whole new iteration, you know?

953
00:50:49,748 --> 00:50:53,378
Um, and sort of like in a,
in a bigger way, which maybe

954
00:50:53,378 --> 00:50:54,698
happens every couple years.

955
00:50:55,718 --> 00:50:58,538
Marie: Which I think would maybe
be a good segue to talking about

956
00:50:59,348 --> 00:51:03,308
your most recent iteration and
the Creator Party, the monetize.

957
00:51:03,308 --> 00:51:06,308
Like how did you arrive, maybe you
could give us a little background

958
00:51:06,308 --> 00:51:09,818
on kind of what it looks like now
today with you and your, you know,

959
00:51:09,818 --> 00:51:13,658
one other team member, and even just
like what are the support needs look

960
00:51:13,658 --> 00:51:15,488
like on your end too, for managing it?

961
00:51:15,488 --> 00:51:15,638
Yeah.

962
00:51:15,638 --> 00:51:18,008
What is, tell me a little bit
more about the Creator Party

963
00:51:18,008 --> 00:51:19,478
and Monetize with Mariah.

964
00:51:19,988 --> 00:51:23,468
Mariah: Yeah, we, we simplified
things so much, um, and last

965
00:51:23,473 --> 00:51:24,608
year that looked like different.

966
00:51:24,608 --> 00:51:26,798
There was different things
going on at different times.

967
00:51:26,798 --> 00:51:31,718
So like at the beginning of 2023,
we launched a program called Profit

968
00:51:31,718 --> 00:51:37,478
Architecture, which was a bundle of lots
of our legacy programs, um, that had not

969
00:51:37,483 --> 00:51:42,458
been available, like to purchase as a
self-study experience until that point.

970
00:51:42,788 --> 00:51:46,448
Um, so we did that and that was where I.

971
00:51:47,243 --> 00:51:51,413
Transitioned our support to
being a private podcast feed.

972
00:51:51,653 --> 00:51:57,473
So we have a, instead of getting on Zoom
calls or office hours or q and a calls

973
00:51:57,473 --> 00:52:00,923
where people ask their questions live or
they submit them and I answer them live,

974
00:52:01,283 --> 00:52:03,653
um, in order to create that spaciousness.

975
00:52:03,713 --> 00:52:07,613
And I wanted to have more of a,
like evergreen asset, like a, an

976
00:52:07,613 --> 00:52:10,913
f, A Q that people could go back
and listen to over and over again

977
00:52:10,913 --> 00:52:12,353
or whenever they needed something.

978
00:52:12,623 --> 00:52:17,453
I wanted to create a more useful
library of FAQs rather than, you

979
00:52:17,453 --> 00:52:20,933
know, as you can imagine, just sifting
through a bunch of two hour call

980
00:52:20,933 --> 00:52:22,703
recordings, like, who's gonna do that?

981
00:52:23,003 --> 00:52:27,893
So that's when we launched the
private podcast now has like 70

982
00:52:27,893 --> 00:52:31,163
something episodes on it of like
frequently asked questions and

983
00:52:31,163 --> 00:52:33,143
strategy questions and stuff like that.

984
00:52:33,503 --> 00:52:37,493
Um, so that was one way that
we sort of like changed the

985
00:52:37,493 --> 00:52:42,503
delivery and the structure of
our programs, um, in order to be.

986
00:52:42,953 --> 00:52:45,623
Supportable by just two people, you know?

987
00:52:45,873 --> 00:52:49,803
And then midway through the year,
we,  through our partnership with

988
00:52:49,803 --> 00:52:55,653
school launched a new program called
Monetize, which incorporates a lot

989
00:52:55,653 --> 00:53:01,363
of my classic stuff for launching,
creating digital products, but with

990
00:53:01,363 --> 00:53:05,503
the added sort of perspective of
creating subscription products, um,

991
00:53:05,503 --> 00:53:07,573
which is something that is new for me.

992
00:53:07,573 --> 00:53:10,843
So again, experimenting,
playing, trying new things.

993
00:53:10,873 --> 00:53:16,783
Last year, uh, we, that was the first time
that we launched a membership with really

994
00:53:16,783 --> 00:53:19,543
like that monthly subscription type thing.

995
00:53:19,548 --> 00:53:23,623
And so we've been doing that
since I think September of 2023.

996
00:53:23,903 --> 00:53:26,453
And so we've, we've definitely launched
and created a handful of different

997
00:53:26,453 --> 00:53:31,433
things, and this year I have a whole
new idea, so I feel like it's a little

998
00:53:31,433 --> 00:53:33,593
too early to share exactly what it is.

999
00:53:33,593 --> 00:53:35,093
I'll tell you, Marie behind the scenes.

1000
00:53:35,423 --> 00:53:39,083
Um, but I have a whole, I have
a whole new idea and it'll be

1001
00:53:39,083 --> 00:53:40,223
something totally different.

1002
00:53:40,583 --> 00:53:42,263
I have no idea when it will be ready.

1003
00:53:42,293 --> 00:53:46,343
'cause it, it's, it's like, you know, it's
like I said, there's times for iteration

1004
00:53:46,343 --> 00:53:51,743
and there's times for just building
something brand new, um, which is always

1005
00:53:51,743 --> 00:53:57,773
so fucking hard and scary and like truly,
you know, why do we sign up for this?

1006
00:53:57,773 --> 00:53:58,553
I don't know.

1007
00:53:58,553 --> 00:54:01,313
I dunno why we do this to
ourselves, but it's like, you know,

1008
00:54:01,343 --> 00:54:03,023
you get a little creative spark.

1009
00:54:03,113 --> 00:54:03,383
Yeah.

1010
00:54:03,383 --> 00:54:06,653
It's a compulsion and you're just
like, well, I have an idea and

1011
00:54:06,653 --> 00:54:08,783
I must express it in this way.

1012
00:54:09,203 --> 00:54:12,203
There's more fun stuff to come, but I
feel like we had, we had a lot of fun

1013
00:54:12,203 --> 00:54:15,953
last year trying out lots of different
things, and then I just, I just like to

1014
00:54:16,193 --> 00:54:20,483
take all of those things and turn them
into learnings, lessons, what can I take

1015
00:54:20,483 --> 00:54:24,923
from all of that and share with people
to try to help them and make everyone

1016
00:54:24,923 --> 00:54:27,053
else's journey a little easier, hopefully.

1017
00:54:28,238 --> 00:54:28,883
Marie: I love that.

1018
00:54:29,191 --> 00:54:32,478
One of the things you mentioned on
Instagram that I was a little shocked

1019
00:54:32,483 --> 00:54:35,178
by, but I would love to dig into if,

1020
00:54:35,398 --> 00:54:35,818
Mariah: mm-Hmm.

1021
00:54:36,378 --> 00:54:40,818
Marie: you're open to it, you said, I
very intentionally avoid big opportunities

1022
00:54:40,818 --> 00:54:43,158
because I'm terrified of more eyeballs.

1023
00:54:43,608 --> 00:54:49,428
So with a move to a more subscription
model, obviously there's, there tends

1024
00:54:49,428 --> 00:54:52,158
to be a need for more, more eyeballs.

1025
00:54:52,158 --> 00:54:52,518
Right.

1026
00:54:53,058 --> 00:54:56,388
Um, so I'm kind of, tell me a little
bit more about this fear, because you

1027
00:54:56,418 --> 00:55:00,348
have the brand of fearless, C-E-O-I-I
have always, I guess, thought of you

1028
00:55:00,348 --> 00:55:04,608
as someone who's very fearless, but
maybe it's in the delivery, right?

1029
00:55:04,613 --> 00:55:07,398
Like the podcast is, is
audio or that sort of thing.

1030
00:55:07,403 --> 00:55:10,998
So where, I guess, where is
that fear of visibility for you?

1031
00:55:11,003 --> 00:55:11,988
What does that look like?

1032
00:55:12,588 --> 00:55:18,348
Mariah: Yeah, so I have definitely a
huge fear of visibility of getting in

1033
00:55:18,348 --> 00:55:21,138
front of like a bigger audience, I think.

1034
00:55:21,288 --> 00:55:25,188
I think like some people want
some level of recognition.

1035
00:55:25,308 --> 00:55:28,308
They might use the word fame,
like some small amount of

1036
00:55:28,308 --> 00:55:29,628
fame or something like that.

1037
00:55:30,168 --> 00:55:32,898
I definitely do not want that.

1038
00:55:32,898 --> 00:55:35,928
I definitely do not like I, there's
no, I don't know what, I don't

1039
00:55:35,928 --> 00:55:39,468
know why, but I just like no part
of me, I always said I wanna be.

1040
00:55:40,878 --> 00:55:44,568
I always said, like, if I could just work
with the same hundred clients for like

1041
00:55:44,598 --> 00:55:46,938
my whole career, that would be great.

1042
00:55:46,938 --> 00:55:47,748
That would be ideal.

1043
00:55:48,288 --> 00:55:52,278
And honestly, I have kind of like,
I do have like a kind of a, a

1044
00:55:52,278 --> 00:55:56,148
cohort of like clients that I have
legitimately been working with since

1045
00:55:56,148 --> 00:55:58,458
2015, who I still work with today.

1046
00:55:58,788 --> 00:56:01,398
Um, I'm very lucky and, and love them.

1047
00:56:01,398 --> 00:56:04,098
And it's like at this point
I don't, you know, we're, we

1048
00:56:04,098 --> 00:56:05,478
just come as a package deal.

1049
00:56:05,478 --> 00:56:13,218
But I feel like, I feel like I always,
even if I can't necessarily identify

1050
00:56:13,223 --> 00:56:18,708
where my fear of visibility comes
from or stems from, like not wanting

1051
00:56:18,708 --> 00:56:22,388
to be seen, not feeling like it's,
feeling like there's just a lot of

1052
00:56:22,388 --> 00:56:27,668
like bullshit that would come along
with a certain level of being known.

1053
00:56:27,998 --> 00:56:31,988
Um, and that that's not something
like, that's just not compelling to me.

1054
00:56:31,988 --> 00:56:33,278
It's not appealing to me.

1055
00:56:33,283 --> 00:56:37,178
Um, but also feeling, I feel like.

1056
00:56:37,523 --> 00:56:41,783
The result of this has been that
I've always hyper, hyper-focused

1057
00:56:41,813 --> 00:56:48,743
on like efficiency and optimization
and maximizing the, like, conversion

1058
00:56:48,983 --> 00:56:50,843
of having a very small audience.

1059
00:56:50,843 --> 00:56:55,803
Like our audience size compared to
our revenue makes no sense whatsoever.

1060
00:56:55,923 --> 00:56:57,543
Makes no sense.

1061
00:56:57,843 --> 00:57:03,033
People would be like, and all, all the
time people who look at who, you know,

1062
00:57:03,033 --> 00:57:06,963
look at my audience size and they're
like, how are you making this much from

1063
00:57:07,383 --> 00:57:12,273
such a small audience's like, well,
I've sort of built everything to do the

1064
00:57:12,273 --> 00:57:16,623
most with the least, which is one of
my favorite Eames quotes is like, do

1065
00:57:16,623 --> 00:57:18,393
the best for the most with the least.

1066
00:57:18,398 --> 00:57:18,903
You know?

1067
00:57:19,293 --> 00:57:22,563
And how can you, how can, I don't know.

1068
00:57:22,563 --> 00:57:26,823
I feel like it's caused me to figure
out conversion and figure out.

1069
00:57:27,693 --> 00:57:32,733
Really like optimizing for things
instead of just growing bigger,

1070
00:57:32,733 --> 00:57:37,503
bigger volume audience, which
always felt really like hard for me.

1071
00:57:37,563 --> 00:57:43,023
Like growing volume always,
always feels hard for me.

1072
00:57:43,113 --> 00:57:48,483
Um, and I've, you know, I've, I've,
you should see the things that have

1073
00:57:48,483 --> 00:57:53,973
landed in my inbox that I said no to
because I was afraid of the, like, the

1074
00:57:54,078 --> 00:57:56,478
Marie: So it is actively
holding you back right

1075
00:57:56,493 --> 00:57:57,093
Mariah: Oh yeah.

1076
00:57:57,093 --> 00:58:00,603
I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't want like
this per this, like, very well-known

1077
00:58:00,603 --> 00:58:06,168
person wants me to come on their podcast
and they have a million downloads a month.

1078
00:58:06,308 --> 00:58:09,873
And like, well, what if I just
say the dumbest thing ever

1079
00:58:09,873 --> 00:58:10,773
while I'm on their podcast?

1080
00:58:11,703 --> 00:58:12,363
Like, what if,

1081
00:58:13,053 --> 00:58:15,963
what if I, what if I
totally messed that up?

1082
00:58:15,968 --> 00:58:18,933
Or like, what, or like my
worst nightmare would be,

1083
00:58:19,668 --> 00:58:23,328
being asked to like, go and like do an
interview on television or something.

1084
00:58:23,328 --> 00:58:26,028
Like, I, I would just, I mean, I've
said no to that multiple times.

1085
00:58:26,028 --> 00:58:28,638
Like that would just straight
up be a no for, for me.

1086
00:58:28,938 --> 00:58:30,138
Marie: I find this so fascinating, right?

1087
00:58:30,138 --> 00:58:33,828
Because you podcast so much and you
speak off the cuff so often, but

1088
00:58:33,828 --> 00:58:38,508
you are afraid of saying the wrong
thing in front of a larger audience.

1089
00:58:39,078 --> 00:58:39,648
Mariah: Yeah.

1090
00:58:39,858 --> 00:58:43,308
It's like, I genuinely feel like,
oh, I'm comfortable with like.

1091
00:58:44,178 --> 00:58:47,838
I love, I love to work with the people
that I know and that I'm comfortable with.

1092
00:58:47,838 --> 00:58:52,218
And I feel like my audience, that I
know, I know everybody, like, I mean,

1093
00:58:52,368 --> 00:58:52,878
Marie: Yeah.

1094
00:58:52,938 --> 00:58:53,208
There's an

1095
00:58:53,453 --> 00:58:54,078
Mariah: person.

1096
00:58:54,588 --> 00:58:59,238
But yeah, there's like a coziness of
like, we, we've, you know, we know

1097
00:58:59,238 --> 00:59:01,878
we know each other and like, I know
you, you know, and I'll just be like,

1098
00:59:01,878 --> 00:59:03,378
you guys know what I'm talking about?

1099
00:59:03,378 --> 00:59:04,548
Or like, you guys know me.

1100
00:59:04,548 --> 00:59:09,498
Whereas if it was in front of a large
audience who didn't know me, I would

1101
00:59:09,503 --> 00:59:15,198
be like, oh, I have to really explain
myself instead of being like, oh, you

1102
00:59:15,203 --> 00:59:17,808
guys just, you guys just know how I am.

1103
00:59:18,038 --> 00:59:22,898
And it's funny too, because I
come from, uh, I'm a musician.

1104
00:59:22,928 --> 00:59:23,678
I'm a singer.

1105
00:59:24,038 --> 00:59:25,778
I have no problem.

1106
00:59:25,833 --> 00:59:27,243
. I was in a touring band.

1107
00:59:27,343 --> 00:59:31,873
I can sing and play guitar on stage
for however many people, and it doesn't

1108
00:59:31,873 --> 00:59:34,783
bother me whatsoever because it's a.

1109
00:59:35,248 --> 00:59:37,738
It's like a alter ego, right?

1110
00:59:37,743 --> 00:59:39,028
It's like a different person.

1111
00:59:39,028 --> 00:59:41,488
It's like another part of you takes over.

1112
00:59:42,208 --> 00:59:42,478
It's

1113
00:59:42,718 --> 00:59:44,608
Marie: But now you've
got Mariah the Destroyer.

1114
00:59:44,638 --> 00:59:45,298
That can be your,

1115
00:59:46,138 --> 00:59:46,798
your alter

1116
00:59:46,798 --> 00:59:47,638
Mariah: and I love it.

1117
00:59:48,058 --> 00:59:48,928
And I love it.

1118
00:59:48,958 --> 00:59:50,068
I'm about to, yeah.

1119
00:59:50,073 --> 00:59:53,878
I'm about to book myself on all those
podcasts and be like, here I am.

1120
00:59:54,418 --> 00:59:55,708
Um, yeah.

1121
00:59:55,708 --> 00:59:59,008
And I, I think there's something though,
so like, it's one thing to kind of

1122
00:59:59,008 --> 01:00:05,188
get up there and sing a song and play
music and feel like it's this, like,

1123
01:00:05,218 --> 01:00:07,768
artistic representation of something.

1124
01:00:08,098 --> 01:00:13,828
But I think the idea of like, if I
share my thought, it's like my, yeah.

1125
01:00:13,858 --> 01:00:15,058
Like it's my brain.

1126
01:00:15,058 --> 01:00:20,158
It's my real, it's not like a, it's not
a character that's singing on stage.

1127
01:00:20,163 --> 01:00:23,788
It's a, it's an actual,
like that's just me.

1128
01:00:24,388 --> 01:00:27,418
And, uh, who knows what
people will think about that.

1129
01:00:27,928 --> 01:00:30,088
So, so I've, yeah, I've definitely like.

1130
01:00:30,808 --> 01:00:35,253
I've stayed, uh, I've stayed small
in, in that department because I,

1131
01:00:35,258 --> 01:00:37,348
I like to kind of keep it cozy.

1132
01:00:37,708 --> 01:00:43,078
Um, and I want, I want the people who
resonate with, you know, with this to,

1133
01:00:43,228 --> 01:00:45,748
to find me and I want us to, to hang out.

1134
01:00:45,748 --> 01:00:49,768
But if, but it's like, I just recognize
that, I don't think it'll ever be

1135
01:00:49,768 --> 01:00:55,918
like a mainstream, super popular thing
because I'm, I'm definitely not for

1136
01:00:55,923 --> 01:00:58,708
everybody, as you know, like, for sure.

1137
01:00:59,548 --> 01:01:01,378
Um, and just feeling okay with that.

1138
01:01:01,378 --> 01:01:01,498
Yeah.

1139
01:01:01,498 --> 01:01:01,918
I don't know.

1140
01:01:01,918 --> 01:01:05,068
It definitely is something
I've, I've been thinking lately.

1141
01:01:05,068 --> 01:01:08,458
The reason I mentioned it to you too
recently was because this has been

1142
01:01:08,458 --> 01:01:14,938
on my mind a lot lately, is figuring
out where is this visibility fear,

1143
01:01:14,938 --> 01:01:18,778
and where is it something that could.

1144
01:01:19,348 --> 01:01:25,138
Shift with therapy or work or mindset
or something like, I don't know.

1145
01:01:25,558 --> 01:01:31,168
Or, and because I would really like
to stay a very small team, like I

1146
01:01:31,168 --> 01:01:32,758
would like to stay a team of two.

1147
01:01:33,238 --> 01:01:38,923
And I recognize that the highest
form of leverage that we have on

1148
01:01:38,928 --> 01:01:40,858
the internet is audience size.

1149
01:01:41,338 --> 01:01:43,348
It's either audience size or price, right?

1150
01:01:43,348 --> 01:01:47,188
So I can play with pricing, I can
play with optimization and conversion,

1151
01:01:47,188 --> 01:01:48,778
which is what I've typically done.

1152
01:01:49,768 --> 01:01:54,718
If I wanna play with the other
lever, it's audience size.

1153
01:01:54,778 --> 01:01:59,158
And that if you have a very large
audience, you can have a one or two person

1154
01:01:59,158 --> 01:02:04,858
team and you know, still grow with the
right product suite and stuff like that.

1155
01:02:05,218 --> 01:02:08,488
Um, so it's very top of mind
for me is kind of trying to

1156
01:02:08,488 --> 01:02:10,468
figure this, figure that out.

1157
01:02:10,918 --> 01:02:11,398
But.

1158
01:02:12,058 --> 01:02:12,868
I don't know.

1159
01:02:12,988 --> 01:02:14,098
I mean, do you feel like that?

1160
01:02:14,098 --> 01:02:17,698
Do you feel like Yeah, if you guys
like got super, like, I just like,

1161
01:02:17,698 --> 01:02:20,278
like the worst thing in the world
to me sounds like going viral.

1162
01:02:20,278 --> 01:02:21,928
That sounds like the worst nightmare.

1163
01:02:21,958 --> 01:02:25,153
So I don't make any social media
content because that would suck.

1164
01:02:25,888 --> 01:02:28,318
Marie: I think both Ben and
I can can relate to that.

1165
01:02:28,318 --> 01:02:31,378
And you know, even friends of ours,
like Thomas Frank and folks that have

1166
01:02:31,378 --> 01:02:35,458
large, large YouTube followings, you
see some of the, you see them put out

1167
01:02:35,458 --> 01:02:38,698
work and then you see some of the,
the questions or trolling comments

1168
01:02:38,698 --> 01:02:42,118
or whatever, and you think you kind
of have to be ready for a bit of that

1169
01:02:42,118 --> 01:02:43,918
if, if you're ready to scale, right?

1170
01:02:43,918 --> 01:02:48,958
Like you, you know, that it kind of
comes with more critique or more energy

1171
01:02:48,958 --> 01:02:50,518
or effort or whatever that looks like.

1172
01:02:50,518 --> 01:02:53,878
So there's, there's definitely a part
of that that's like, oh, you know,

1173
01:02:53,878 --> 01:02:55,948
do I wanna dip my toe into that?

1174
01:02:56,095 --> 01:02:59,605
Ben: Notion just acquired this
company called Skiff last week.

1175
01:02:59,610 --> 01:03:02,965
And a lot of the Skiff customers
are saying things like, I will

1176
01:03:02,965 --> 01:03:04,615
never forgive you for this.

1177
01:03:05,515 --> 01:03:06,565
Like, you know, that kind

1178
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:07,225
Mariah: harsh.

1179
01:03:07,345 --> 01:03:07,765
Ben: yeah.

1180
01:03:07,795 --> 01:03:11,005
So then that's, that's what, that's
what you're dealing with at that scale.

1181
01:03:11,005 --> 01:03:15,625
That when you make a decision that is
not conducive to somebody's expectations

1182
01:03:15,625 --> 01:03:18,835
of you as a business, that you're
gonna end up really upsetting people.

1183
01:03:19,405 --> 01:03:23,065
Um, so yeah, that, like, dealing
with that eventuality, 'cause

1184
01:03:23,065 --> 01:03:26,815
it's probably gonna happen to most
businesses in the future, um, is a

1185
01:03:26,820 --> 01:03:29,095
real, it's a real, uh, scary prospect.

1186
01:03:29,095 --> 01:03:33,025
I think sometimes, especially for
these solo creator businesses where

1187
01:03:33,025 --> 01:03:37,435
your whole business is around your,
like, identity online and not like a

1188
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:38,905
separate product that you've created.

1189
01:03:38,905 --> 01:03:42,955
But this is me that we're
criti cri critiquing versus a

1190
01:03:42,955 --> 01:03:44,305
product that we're critiquing.

1191
01:03:45,070 --> 01:03:45,520
Mariah: Yeah.

1192
01:03:45,550 --> 01:03:48,910
And like your relationship
with those people is what, it's

1193
01:03:48,910 --> 01:03:53,890
all, all based on real relationship
or parasocial or whatever

1194
01:03:53,890 --> 01:03:55,270
type of relationship it is.

1195
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:59,620
Um, yeah, that's really
tough and I don't envy that.

1196
01:03:59,780 --> 01:04:03,260
Yeah, it definitely takes a
unique person to wanna pursue that

1197
01:04:03,260 --> 01:04:06,855
level of being known, I guess,

1198
01:04:07,155 --> 01:04:07,515
Marie: Yeah.

1199
01:04:08,025 --> 01:04:08,685
Mariah: I don't know.

1200
01:04:09,405 --> 01:04:09,735
I don't know.

1201
01:04:09,735 --> 01:04:12,705
Lots to explore and excavate with that.

1202
01:04:13,245 --> 01:04:13,455
Marie: Yeah.

1203
01:04:13,455 --> 01:04:17,385
Well, I guess, you know, saying,
saying yes to podcasts and saying

1204
01:04:17,385 --> 01:04:20,655
yes to the scary asks that come into
your inbox, like, you're, you're

1205
01:04:20,655 --> 01:04:23,685
gonna learn so much by saying yes
to some of those things, right?

1206
01:04:23,685 --> 01:04:25,995
It's like, oh, maybe that
wasn't as scary as I thought.

1207
01:04:25,995 --> 01:04:27,255
Or, you know, who knows

1208
01:04:27,255 --> 01:04:29,580
Mariah: Marie you're coaching
me to, to doing all the things.

1209
01:04:30,735 --> 01:04:33,765
Marie: I know you wanna do
them, Mariah, go and destroy it.

1210
01:04:36,225 --> 01:04:36,675
Yeah.

1211
01:04:36,705 --> 01:04:39,795
Well, it's like I've, again, I've been
so influenced by your work and your

1212
01:04:39,795 --> 01:04:44,565
ideas, and they've shown me in a way,
like, oh, I can actually be myself in

1213
01:04:44,565 --> 01:04:46,365
my business without judging myself.

1214
01:04:46,365 --> 01:04:47,985
Like, why am I holding myself back?

1215
01:04:48,075 --> 01:04:50,205
And so I just think about.

1216
01:04:50,655 --> 01:04:54,195
What could happen if your ideas
were operating at a bigger scale?

1217
01:04:54,195 --> 01:04:57,525
I think, you know, your work would touch
so many more people in a really positive

1218
01:04:57,525 --> 01:04:59,355
way, even if it's not for everyone.

1219
01:04:59,685 --> 01:05:02,115
And I would just love to see more people.

1220
01:05:02,205 --> 01:05:03,015
Like, I'm always shocked.

1221
01:05:03,015 --> 01:05:04,575
I'm like, what do you mean
you've never heard of Mariah

1222
01:05:04,575 --> 01:05:06,015
Coz don't you, people know?

1223
01:05:06,255 --> 01:05:06,825
So I would

1224
01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:07,650
Mariah: little secret,

1225
01:05:08,145 --> 01:05:08,565
Marie: Yeah.

1226
01:05:08,570 --> 01:05:08,775
Yeah.

1227
01:05:08,775 --> 01:05:09,405
Totally.

1228
01:05:09,540 --> 01:05:10,650
Mariah: little best kept secret.

1229
01:05:11,070 --> 01:05:14,280
Um, yeah, no, I, I, I think that's funny.

1230
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,520
And, and that's the thing is like,
I, you know, I've worked, I've worked

1231
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:19,320
with a lot of high profile people.

1232
01:05:19,470 --> 01:05:23,910
Again, don't envy, I don't, I don't
envy their situation whatsoever.

1233
01:05:23,940 --> 01:05:26,280
Especially having been behind
the scenes of a lot of,

1234
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:31,350
you know, those more ho high profile
creators or actual celebrities

1235
01:05:31,350 --> 01:05:34,170
and business owners and people
like that, that we've worked with.

1236
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:38,250
Um, and yeah, it's hard, it's
hard to like, see the feedback,

1237
01:05:38,250 --> 01:05:39,660
but I so appreciate that, Marie.

1238
01:05:39,660 --> 01:05:40,720
And thank you.

1239
01:05:40,870 --> 01:05:41,710
I appreciate that.

1240
01:05:42,220 --> 01:05:44,290
That's why I, I like, I like little ideas.

1241
01:05:44,290 --> 01:05:48,130
I mean, I wish that my ideas
could be out there without me.

1242
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:49,030
That'd be great.

1243
01:05:49,165 --> 01:05:50,335
Marie: Mm.

1244
01:05:50,890 --> 01:05:51,730
Mariah: What does that look like?

1245
01:05:52,045 --> 01:05:52,315
Marie: Yeah.

1246
01:05:52,315 --> 01:05:53,305
What does that look like?

1247
01:05:53,765 --> 01:05:53,845
Mariah: Hmm.

1248
01:05:54,550 --> 01:05:55,060
I don't know.

1249
01:05:55,690 --> 01:05:55,960
Don't think

1250
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:56,170
about

1251
01:05:56,170 --> 01:05:56,350
it.

1252
01:05:56,665 --> 01:05:56,935
Marie: Chat?

1253
01:05:56,935 --> 01:06:00,355
GPT, I'm curious, are you using
some, you know, chat GPT and

1254
01:06:00,745 --> 01:06:02,545
Mariah: I don't, I'm such a weirdo.

1255
01:06:02,550 --> 01:06:04,555
I don't use AI for anything.

1256
01:06:04,555 --> 01:06:05,005
I dunno.

1257
01:06:05,005 --> 01:06:07,435
Any, I don't know anything about it.

1258
01:06:07,505 --> 01:06:12,725
, It's weird, there's like never a moment
where I think, oh, I need, like I, I

1259
01:06:12,725 --> 01:06:17,375
want some, I want help like putting
this, I'm like, I either have a very

1260
01:06:17,375 --> 01:06:22,925
specific way of writing something that
I want it to be me or I don't know.

1261
01:06:22,925 --> 01:06:25,265
There's not, like I'm,
I'm not doing volume.

1262
01:06:25,535 --> 01:06:28,115
You know, when I could've used
chat, GPT would've been when I had

1263
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:33,245
to create, you know, 20 versions of
the same ad every two weeks, right?

1264
01:06:33,250 --> 01:06:34,325
Like, that would've been good.

1265
01:06:34,505 --> 01:06:35,675
But I'm not doing that anymore.

1266
01:06:35,675 --> 01:06:37,835
I'm not doing any like high volume.

1267
01:06:38,105 --> 01:06:39,665
I'm not writing Instagram captions.

1268
01:06:39,670 --> 01:06:43,175
I'm not doing like high
volume output of content.

1269
01:06:43,175 --> 01:06:48,485
I'm doing very careful slow content,
you know, where I'm like, Hey,

1270
01:06:48,485 --> 01:06:50,075
when I have something big to say.

1271
01:06:50,540 --> 01:06:54,020
I'm gonna fucking say it in two,
in a two hour podcast episode.

1272
01:06:54,860 --> 01:06:58,220
But there's no, like, there's
no version of, there's no, you

1273
01:06:58,220 --> 01:07:02,030
know, um, hey, summarize this
into, you know, blah, blah, blah.

1274
01:07:02,180 --> 01:07:05,030
There's no version of it right
now that looks like that.

1275
01:07:05,835 --> 01:07:06,345
Marie: Amazing.

1276
01:07:07,275 --> 01:07:13,035
Well, what's the best next way for
people to engage with your content

1277
01:07:13,035 --> 01:07:15,795
and get introduced to your ideas?

1278
01:07:15,795 --> 01:07:19,095
I mean, obviously you've got your,
your podcast, the Mariah Coz Show.

1279
01:07:19,605 --> 01:07:21,765
You've got your creator, creator,

1280
01:07:21,765 --> 01:07:22,275
school

1281
01:07:22,425 --> 01:07:23,355
Mariah: Creator Party.

1282
01:07:23,415 --> 01:07:26,715
Uh, yes, I have, I would say
the podcast Mariah Coz show.

1283
01:07:26,715 --> 01:07:30,525
And if you want to get some more
free trainings and videos and

1284
01:07:30,530 --> 01:07:33,915
workshops and stuff that I've
done, I have a community on school.

1285
01:07:33,915 --> 01:07:35,025
It's called Creator Party.

1286
01:07:35,055 --> 01:07:37,695
If you go to creator party.co,
it'll take you there.

1287
01:07:37,995 --> 01:07:38,835
Um, it's free.

1288
01:07:38,835 --> 01:07:41,115
And inside I have like a free mini course.

1289
01:07:41,115 --> 01:07:42,435
I have a bunch of free trainings.

1290
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:45,285
A bunch of workshops, and even
some of my like paid courses are

1291
01:07:45,285 --> 01:07:47,595
in there that you can unlock with

1292
01:07:47,835 --> 01:07:49,875
Marie: of your, even your free stuff.

1293
01:07:49,875 --> 01:07:53,910
Like there's so much good
stuff in there to learn from.

1294
01:07:54,010 --> 01:07:55,510
So like, yes.

1295
01:07:56,145 --> 01:07:56,805
Mariah: Thank you.

1296
01:07:57,105 --> 01:07:57,405
Yeah.

1297
01:07:57,405 --> 01:08:00,735
And then I think I'm gonna try to,
one of my goals this year is to

1298
01:08:01,125 --> 01:08:03,195
launch like a themed newsletter.

1299
01:08:03,225 --> 01:08:06,885
You know, it's like I have an email list
and I send emails to my email list, but

1300
01:08:06,915 --> 01:08:09,255
I have an idea for a themed newsletter.

1301
01:08:09,255 --> 01:08:12,555
So if you wanna get on my email
list, so you start getting these new

1302
01:08:12,735 --> 01:08:15,945
newsletters, which will be called
The Creator Confessions, where I

1303
01:08:15,950 --> 01:08:21,165
will just have my existential crises
in public for everyone to watch

1304
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:21,980
Marie: me up.

1305
01:08:22,185 --> 01:08:23,145
Mariah: in their emails.

1306
01:08:23,865 --> 01:08:28,725
Then, uh, yeah, could definitely go to
Mariah Coz.com and uh, sign up for the

1307
01:08:28,725 --> 01:08:31,695
email list so you can get all that stuff.

1308
01:08:31,755 --> 01:08:34,005
We'll see all that mind vomit.

1309
01:08:34,980 --> 01:08:36,270
Marie: It's so valuable.

1310
01:08:36,275 --> 01:08:39,300
Like when, when you are thinking
about stuff and you're noticing

1311
01:08:39,300 --> 01:08:41,970
trends and you're kind of noticing
what's happening, like I always

1312
01:08:41,970 --> 01:08:45,060
feel like you're 10, 20 steps ahead.

1313
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:48,121
So I just, I love your insights
and love the way your brain works.

1314
01:08:49,335 --> 01:08:50,055
Mariah: Thanks.

1315
01:08:50,295 --> 01:08:51,585
Feel the same about you, Marie.

1316
01:08:52,210 --> 01:08:52,900
Marie: Amazing.

1317
01:08:53,500 --> 01:08:53,740
Mariah: Awesome.

1318
01:08:53,740 --> 01:08:54,220
Thank you.

1319
01:08:54,220 --> 01:08:55,180
Thank you both so much.

1320
01:08:55,180 --> 01:08:55,900
This was so much fun.

1321
01:08:56,260 --> 01:08:56,650
Love it.