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Don't cram plenty people on Zoom fluorescent lighted office all day long.

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You know, you probably are going to work from home.

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Hello and welcome back to No Office, a podcast about work technology and life from a remote company perspective.

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My name is Rafał Sobolewski and I'm joined by my good friend and CEO of this remote company.

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We call our search hashtag No Office company.

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and the company is Nozbe and CEO is Michael Sliwinski.

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Hello Michael, how are you today?

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- Hey Rafal, good, good, good.

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We're recording on a different schedule.

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Morning our time, so probably our American friends

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are asleep right now, but we decided to readjust

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our, well, our hours of meetings.

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We'll talk about it today in the episode.

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And yeah, I'm good.

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I am already kind of feeling the Christmas spirit

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And this is my last day of work, probably.

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Like, you know, today is Thursday when we record it.

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And then tomorrow is Friday, the Mighty Friday.

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So one Mighty Friday, one good review,

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and I'm off to the races.

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Yeah, that's nice perspective.

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I don't have so many free days left in the series,

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so I will continue to work next week.

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But yeah, I'm good.

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I'm glad we changed our recording schedule

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so we can have coffee together.

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Yeah, and this is episode number 32.

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Like 32 gigabytes of RAM memory

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in my brand new MacBook Pro, which is not here.

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It was supposed to be here by now,

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but yeah, apparently something went wrong

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and the finance part of the Apple company

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didn't start the payment process.

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- Oh man.

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- Yeah, and now it's moved to be delivered

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between 31st of December and 4th of January.

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- So no ho ho ho for you, man.

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- Yeah, and I had interesting experience

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calling Apple support.

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On Tuesday, it was 14th of December.

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It was the last day of the delivery window,

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but Apple gave us, yeah.

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So I called them and I had to wait like 30 minutes on hold to get to talk to someone.

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Your call is very important to us. Please wait and just wait and just wait.

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Yeah, and two things about it. One good and one bad. The good thing is that they really put a nice music there.

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when you're writing. It's not like some shitty melody.

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It's really just normal music, like the kind of music they put before the

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Apple keynote starts when you open the stream.

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So they have a whole Apple Music playlist for you.

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Yeah, something like this. So the experience is better than normal waiting on hold.

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gave me an option. If you want to talk in English, you can press one and connect immediately.

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So I did that. And the English person told me, "Oh no, it's the Polish market border,

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so I need to switch you back to the Polish person."

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And push yourself at the end of the line.

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Exactly. Probably, yeah.

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Or as they say in Britain, "Q, at the end of the Q."

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yeah yeah so that was the experience yeah and now that the Reveri window is

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moved to to to the newer new years Eve this is really weird like we ordered

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almost at the same time actually you ordered earlier yeah one week earlier

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then Radek and MacBook Pro both went through my father our finance guy both

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were paid almost immediately and I mean the payment data and everything so there

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was really no glitch on our part. They have no like because because Apple is

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nice company and they charge you only when the product is ready to ship yes

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they are not the shitty company that way you pre-order something and they charge

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immediately and they ship it in three four months okay yeah so this is this is

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nice but apparently something went wrong or I don't know like that the lady on

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on the other side was very nice but couldn't tell me what was the reason but she just contacted

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yeah she just made a ticket for the finance guys. So just to tell you that I really know what you

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feel because if you remember I felt the same thing last summer I mean this summer when I was

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getting my iPad pro it was already like way past the delivery window when it arrived

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I ordered it in mid-June.

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It was supposed to come in the second week of July.

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And at the end of July, I was going for a short trip to Germany.

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And one day before this trip to Germany, at the end of July, my iPad Pro came.

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So it was really like last minute before my two-week trip.

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And I was so happy that they managed, but I was so frustrated.

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I called them also several times, I remember, on the Apple support, and they couldn't tell me anything.

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They just said, "You have to wait.

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That's it."

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They didn't even tell me that, that there was just some glitch

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between finance or whatever.

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They just said, "You have to wait."

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But I think in my case, it was the problem with the iPad Pros

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being just backlogged.

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There were just many orders and they just didn't keep up.

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But they should have updated the page, but they haven't.

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It was the 20-something of July, and it was still saying on my

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page, "It's going to arrive between 13th and 17th of July."

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July so yeah so I really know what you feel because and especially you know

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when you want your new toy you want your new incomplete the new thing just like

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in my I've already sold my iPad Pro with magic keyboard exactly you see so I my

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only my only mobile computer right now is this iPad mini so so yeah it's a

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tricky tricky thing so I haven't sold my iPad then I anyway my iPad went down to

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my daughter and she loves it of course there she has the iPad Pro 11 inch with

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magic keyboard and with Apple pencil so she is in love with this thing but yeah

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so this is what happens when you order stuff about selling iPad Pro I put it on

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sell together with magic keyboard as one bundle one bundle and it was hard to sell

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it once I put it separately as separate offers then it after two days it was

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That's interesting. So apparently people prefer to just buy the iPad or buy the Magic Keyboard, not both.

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Which I totally don't understand because really I've already said it on the show several times.

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I'm in love with this machine and I'm in love with the Magic Keyboard. This is so much joy, this new iPad.

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And I just like this keyboard wants me to type.

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It wants me it wants to be typed on. It's like it's tickling my fingers.

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fingers. It's so good. I really love typing on this thing. I really love my Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro as well.

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Anyway, I'm still getting prepared to update my setup to waiting for this MacBook Pro.

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As we talked in some previous episodes, I was counting on this universal control feature in Mac OS

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that Apple is supposed to ship this fall. But now it's late and it's officially

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On Apple's site it says it will be shipped in spring 2022.

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So it really sucks.

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Because I wouldn't be able to test if my assumption that I could use my iMac as my second canvas,

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I wouldn't be able to test it until spring.

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So yeah, kind of sucks.

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Yeah, and I was starting to figure out what do I need for my MacBook Pro to use it here

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in my home office, what do I need to connect to it? And actually, I need to have a USB-A port

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to connect the camera via KAMLINK and Ethernet too, because I want to be on the cable while doing

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live streams. Not because of the internet speed, but because the delay is not that much on the

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cable. I can use this full HD monitor that I have to use. It has USB hub via USB-C, so I can connect

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it. But I have only one USB 3.0 with USB-A type port to connect the camera, and I have nothing to

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connect Ethernet. So probably I will need to buy an adapter and there's no official

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adapter from Apple available from USB-C or Thunderboard to Ethernet.

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Yeah, but the ones that are on sale, I have one from Ugreen. It's fantastic. It's very good. I

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have two of those and they work very well. Yeah, they work very well, but I saw the one

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from Ugreen at the product page they say that this might not work very good on macOS Monterey

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12.0 and it should be fixed in the future updates. Well, so I can tell you that from my experience

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the adapters that I have work very well both with the MacBook Pros, but not Monterey, I haven't tested

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Monterey, I don't have a MacBook Pro with Monterey here, and also with my iPad Pro. So it's my regular

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adapter if I wanted, for example, just connect wired to my router to just

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do some diagnostics, for example. So I just take my iPad, connect it with this dongle and the cable,

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and it works very well. So no complaints on that side. So you don't need an official Apple

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branded. Yeah, but I would always want to have an option. Okay, but we will see how it

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how it was actually i have i have a usb-c to digital audio video also with

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usb-a and hdmi port so maybe i can somehow use use that

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and have some adapter from yeah but anyway i still i still need to buy an

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adapter to eternet there you go so uh dongle town episode

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number talent and when i was researching like

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4k monitor options. Only Philips has monitors with Ethernet port.

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They're not really very popular, the ones with the Ethernet port.

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And monitor options are really not that great.

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We will see. I know it's not the purest thing but my wife is really

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happy with her 27 4k display. It's pretty good.

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I'm thinking that the 4K with 27 inch wouldn't be awesome,

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but would be good enough to not to be sharp enough that my eyes wouldn't

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see any difference.

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Yeah, and the one that we have, I have a Thunderbolt cable to it.

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So I just connect it to my iPad, and it both charges the iPad

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and just mirrors the iPad screen.

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And of course--

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Do you remember which model you have?

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Yeah, I'll send you the--

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But it was the one recommended to me by our friends from our Nozbe team,

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by Leon and somebody else. So I just went with their recommendation.

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That's it. Still waiting for my beloved MacBook Pro.

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All right. This is the suffering of technology enthusiasts.

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OK. Last episode, we talked about how we can set our design flight meeting

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and go more async with the communication about design.

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we have some more changes in our meetings schedule.

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This is what I like about the way we work. We have these quarterly

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off-sites, the quarterly meetings. And then every quarter,

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because of these meetings and because of the feedback that we get, we do change

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some things. We do make some adjustments. And I like making

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adjustments every quarter instead of every year because you just forgot

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how it was if it's just a year. So every quarter is for me the best

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feedback loop because it's already like three months in, which really three

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months is not that much of a time. But it's long enough

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but it's short enough. Every quarter, a part of my quarterly

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review is to review my weekly schedule, how my week goes, if there is

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anything I can improve, if there is any meeting or any other

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time slot that I'm using wrong. Or for example, in my case, here where I live in autumn and in spring,

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it's very nice to go out to do some running in the middle of the day. Like it's 2 o'clock,

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like at 2 p.m. because it's the warmest. Yeah, like in winter season. Yeah, it's the best time.

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I know early morning is the best, but not in winter. In winter, it's just freaking cold.

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So really from autumn through winter to spring, the best time to go out for a short run just to,

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you know, do some sports, it's in the middle of the day. That's why I really like to readjust

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my schedule so that I can have like at 2 p.m or 3 p.m, sometimes one hour to just go out,

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go for a run, go back, take a shower and continue working. So yeah, so based on all that and based

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on your complaint that you had too many meetings on Monday, which was true, we decided to completely

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change the way we do meetings. Like not completely. Adjust them. And now we actually do something which

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we always said we wouldn't do, but we start almost every day with a meeting. So we have a meeting,

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in my case I can say that I have a meeting every day, Monday through Thursday, at 10 30. So 10 30

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to 11 30 usually. Usually they're just one hour, maybe a little bit more, but usually one hour.

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So this way, in the beginning, I have my breakfast. I get my kids to school, I have my breakfast,

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I have some warm-up time, I can prepare for the meeting, then I have the meeting. So it's really

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good to have this time to prepare for the meeting because meetings should be prepared. And then,

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after that, at 10.30, I have the meeting. On Monday, I have our director's meeting,

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so our leadership meeting. On Tuesday, I have marketing meeting. On Wednesday, I have our

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business analytics meeting with Tom and then on Thursdays, every other Thursday, I do this. I have

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a meeting with all of you guys. And with Rava, of course. And then on Friday, no meetings because

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Friday is Friday, it's mighty Friday. So come on. And then at 12, after the meeting, I have some time

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to calm down and relax and maybe brew another coffee. And then at 12, from 12 to two, I have

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I have a constant block of core hours.

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The core hours concept, I wrote about it in my book

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and we'll link in the show notes

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and we also talked about it with Radek on the podcast.

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So it means every day from Monday through Thursday,

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so four days a week from noon to two, two hours straight,

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I'm working in focused mode.

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I have one topic, each Friday I choose a topic

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and then through these days I work on this one topic.

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And then from 2 p.m. onwards, I might go do some sports.

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I might have additional meeting if I want to.

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I might have a feedback time for my Nozbe team.

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So after 2 p.m., I decide what to do.

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So very often after the core hours focused session,

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I go for a run or I do some other sports,

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and then I get back to work to do some feedback

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and get back to the team.

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So this way, my week is better structured, I think.

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- I had a very similar schedule, weekly schedule.

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I've also planned this core, like core hours,

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but I don't plan like one topic for the whole week.

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I just plan two free topics per week.

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So I want to make sure that I have appetite only

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for like one or two core hours per topic,

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on today's per topic. So I think I want to try this if it motivates me to really deliver

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something that already adds value and can be asked for feedback and move forward.

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So this is what we learned about... It actually works for our product development process,

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we will talk about in a second. Having this, setting this appetite, it really makes you,

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triggers you to make good decisions to deliver something.

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Exactly. And so that's why it's really like I really recommend evaluating your meetings

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on a quarterly basis. Just make sure and Rafał, I think you're happier right now with the new

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meeting schedule that you don't have the Monday completely swapped with meetings, right?

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Yeah, yeah. I think with current schedule it's like perfect. Again, we have that many meetings

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that we have appetite for. It's not too much. It's less than we used to have.

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I think that's really nice because it leaves a lot of space

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for first deep work in core hours and second for asynchronous feedback.

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We are creatures of habits so it's really good to structure your week,

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to really think about this. I think I stole this idea from Michael Hayat, the

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the idea of the ideal week. So how would my ideal week look like? And of course it's never ideal,

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it's never perfect, but having this framework helps you know what to do.

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Yeah, this week is totally a mess for me because first of all I had a booster shot of vaccine.

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So I was a mess on Tuesday and Wednesday, and I got some cold.

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And actually, my feelings, I also got some cold, but we do some anti-gene tests. It's not COVID,

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so don't worry. It's just a normal cold. So yeah, it's not perfect. I wasn't able to do

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core hours on Tuesday, but still, the schedule, you should...

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it's good to have this perfect schedule that you are trying to optimize for, but if you don't

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achieve that, that's fine. Just move on. Only this week, it was the first time. I haven't done

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Corobers in a very long time, and I missed it. So this week I tried, and for example on Tuesday

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I was in such a procrastinating mode. It was 12, I haven't started yet. 12.30, I was still doing

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some feedback and some other things that I wasn't supposed to do. At one, I was still doing that. I

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was like, "All right, I feel so guilty now. Let's drop it. Let's focus on the core

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hours." So I started really late. I started at one o'clock, one something,

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but then I pushed through and I worked until, I think, 3 p.m.

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on the core hour. So I did spend two hours on this on the topic,

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but it's like you have to still get back to this muscle memory, to this

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habit of, "This is the time to start. Let's go. Let's do it."

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And it's hard. That's why I really want again start next year doing core hours regularly so I get

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back into this habit of delivering weekly some really good output in my core hours.

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Wow, we are already recording for 22 minutes so maybe let's take a break here.

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Let's give the microphone to Mike St-Pierre.

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Yes, because no of his podcast is sponsored by Nozbe teams, a to-do app that helps small teams

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do great things. Let's hear what Nozbe customers say about the product.

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We tried different project management tools for the first couple years when I was with

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the organization I currently am, CCMA. And then we realized that we just need really

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one place where we can communicate, where we can share projects, where we can think

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in written form, where we can give each other feedback. So we tested a couple of different

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things and eventually we settled with Nozbe teams and it's been really fun to see the software mature

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and just get better and better. The data security, I know the company is totally committed to

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improving the product. For us, it's simple. We have some members of our team who are very tech

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savvy and some who aren't as tech savvy. So to find one tool that actually is usable for all

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those is not easy. We did dabble in a couple of competitors and they were just too much,

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too complicated, too many features. What our team needed was something simple, reliable,

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trustworthy, something that was fun and attractive and enjoyable to use. And so Nozomi Teams has

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really fit for us. It's met that sweet spot. It's reasonable. We're a nonprofit. And so the price is

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right. It's easy to add members. I just added somebody yesterday. It was no big deal. I think

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I went to the five person plan to six. It was not a big deal. So that's nice because it's flexible

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for us. It just gives us a place to park everything and it works for us. So we don't want to be

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emailing within our team. We're not perfect at that, but we want to cut down on that. We want

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to cut down on interruptions during the day. And so I'll try anything that will help accomplish

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those two things. So for us, Nozbe teams really fits that need that we have as a small team.

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All right. That was Mike St-Pierre, our customer.

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If you go to blog.nozbe.com on our blog, there is my full interview with Mike

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about his productivity summit that he just recently launched. And you can still get the

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the recordings of it, it's really, really good.

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And when you pay for it, the payment goes for good causes.

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So make sure to check it out.

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But like when he was saying that about Nozbe teams,

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and I just asked him a simple question.

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I said, Mike, can I use it as a testimonial?

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It was so authentic, it was fantastic.

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So I just, we just cut it out from the interview

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just to put it as a testimonial.

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- Yeah, yeah, that's really great.

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We have more and more of those customers

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who agree to record for us testimonials.

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So we can use it as ads inside podcast.

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That's really nice.

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And it's just so much better to hear from somebody else.

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Like, you know, we are not the ones selling, you know, Nozbe Teams is the best.

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We know it's the best.

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We spent our whole life building it, but it's just so much better when somebody else recommends

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it.

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So, yeah.

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Today, I wanted to talk to you about our product development process as we kind of talked about

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it in episode 13.

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it's called no roadmap.

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- Yeah.

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- But I want to add to it the things we learned

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from with this time, it's like 10 months

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from the episode 13.

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I'm really glad how it works right now.

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And I was procrastinating on writing it down

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as our product, this product dev process

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as a formal document in our wiki.

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- Okay.

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if I want to also have it somewhere on our help page

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or maybe as a blog post to be transparent with our users

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so they know how we work.

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Yeah, and I was procrastinating on it.

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So I decided, okay, let's talk about it.

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And based on that, it will be much easier

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to prepare those kind of written forum content about that.

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As we said many times on this episode,

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transparency is very important in no office company,

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but also transparency to our users, to our customers.

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So this is why I want to do it.

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Okay, so basically to remind you,

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we work in five weeks cycles.

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So that means that every five weeks,

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we have a retrospection with our development team

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and designers, and we have a retrospection,

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we plan the next cycle, what we're going to do. And that's the whole planning. There is no

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roadmap. There is just product vision based on those commandments. We also talked about it in

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previous episodes. And every five weeks, the development team has a retrospection. So every

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five weeks we do some small improvements of the way how the process works and with readership team

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like you, Ivan, Adam, Radek, we plan what are the priorities for the next five weeks.

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Yeah, as you mentioned we have the portfolio of options so we have you know basically tasks with

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descriptions of features we want to do maybe eventually in Nozbe teams and because of that

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we can choose from this portfolio of options. And because we plan every five weeks, so every cycle,

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the good thing about it is that every five weeks we also incorporate new feedback.

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So this way, there's a trick for you, our users. Write stuff to us. Write us feedback,

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which features you would want in Nozbe teams and why, and give us the whole story. Not just,

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I want this feature, but I want this feature because I want to work like this because my flow normally is like this and

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just give us the whole spiel, the whole example, even give us an example like of a

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real project in your company, how you would do it and which kind of feature would help you

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or you think would help you get there faster. This way we can evaluate it and this way

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every five weeks we can choose from this portfolio of options

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based not only on our gut feeling

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and on our vision for the product,

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but also based on the feedback from customers.

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If we see a customer pushing,

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several customers, not one customer,

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but several customers pushing for some features

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or pushing for some direction,

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we need this and not that.

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Then we see maybe we should reprioritize,

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maybe something we thought we would build later,

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we could build now,

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And then that other thing could go for the next cycle.

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So really, this gives us the flexibility of not having

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a set in stone roadmap for the whole year or beyond,

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but just choosing from the portfolio of options

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and choosing and filling the room

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to see what people really want,

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what our users really want, what they really need.

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Yeah, and if I go through our features request products,

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when we gather this feedback,

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like the most desirable features.

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The most of them are already implemented

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or being in the works.

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When I do a planning,

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before I ask you readership team for feedback,

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I also review like this feature request project.

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I review support tickets, project lesson support tickets,

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if there is something important there.

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And during the cycle,

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sometimes I got asynchronous feedback.

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feedback, for example, for Livona,

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oh, Rafa, this is important.

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Let's make sure we plan it for the next cycle.

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And then I have this special tag that I mark this task with.

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So once I prepare input for you guys

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to give me feedback on what's important,

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I can point you to those tasks so you can make a decision.

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And yeah, and everyone in leadership team

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gives me two, three top priorities.

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I review them. I need to see the holiday plans for our development team for the next five weeks to see what appetite we have available to spend.

377
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How many work days do we have?

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you the these priorities you gave me and see if they are ready for implementation.

379
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So are ready for the developers to work on or they need some shaping up. So design

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path. So we have like dev path and the design path. As we said, we really don't need this

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00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:17,180
load map or backlog because what we learned that important topics always come back.

382
00:29:17,180 --> 00:29:22,080
Yes, they do. And you know, we really have, I'm really proud of our customer support team, our customer

383
00:29:22,340 --> 00:29:27,340
success team, now we call it. Really write to us, we respond very quickly, and we do listen to everyone.

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It doesn't mean that we will give you a response, "Yes, we'll do it now!" But we do listen.

385
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And that's why, as you said, things resurface every time.

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But especially, and this is the best part, so not only the integration of five cycles.

387
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Remember, we ship our app every week.

388
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we have shipped 45 versions of Nozbe teams in this year, right?

389
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For this?

390
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:57,420
Yes, yes. 45, I think.

391
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Yes.

392
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So we ship every week.

393
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So the improvements are coming up all the time to Nozbe teams.

394
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And based on these improvements, very often we get new feedback from customers.

395
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And that's what I like about this cadence.

396
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We ship something, we get feedback.

397
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We ship something, we get feedback.

398
00:30:13,220 --> 00:30:14,860
It's just fantastic.

399
00:30:14,860 --> 00:30:16,740
It's just so quick.

400
00:30:13,260 --> 00:30:18,260
it's so much better than preparing a feature for half a year

401
00:30:18,260 --> 00:30:21,740
and then announcing it.

402
00:30:21,740 --> 00:30:24,040
And because of that, everything has changed.

403
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,340
We don't do versions, like version one,

404
00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:28,600
version two, version whatever.

405
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,080
There is a version of year dot number,

406
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,080
and number of the week, and that's why we are right now

407
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,640
on version 2021.45 of Nozbe Teams.

408
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:43,240
And also because of that, we announced features

409
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,120
a little bit later. They have already been shipped.

410
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,160
People have already been using them.

411
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:50,800
We already got the first feedback, and then we announced

412
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,800
the feature on our product blog, on our blog.

413
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We do it a little bit later.

414
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,560
And by the way, just a heads up,

415
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,680
the multi-team feature is a killer.

416
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,560
People really love it.

417
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:03,560
We already have several customers using multi-teams

418
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,600
and using several premium teams on their accounts

419
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,240
because they see that they can divide the work

420
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,640
in personal style, the different departments and stuff.

421
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,240
So it's like the multi-team feature, man.

422
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,640
We just analyze it.

423
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:19,640
It's a killer.

424
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,480
The one main thing we learned from doing this kind of process

425
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:27,440
for almost a year is that we really, as always,

426
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,480
if it's possible, and very often it is,

427
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,440
we start very cheapo with the feature.

428
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For example, we usually set one week appetite

429
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,240
to have for front-end and backend developer

430
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:44,240
to prepare the basic version of the function we shaped up,

431
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:50,120
but we shaped it up on really high abstraction level.

432
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,960
We just shaped up what should be possible to do by a user,

433
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,960
how user flow looks like, but not UI.

434
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,960
We don't, at this level, we don't shape up UI elements yet.

435
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,400
We just give it to developers

436
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,820
and then they figure out how to do it, how to prepare something functional for us to

437
00:32:10,820 --> 00:32:18,400
test on dogfooding. This is really great because often it happens that after this, we just

438
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:25,520
say, "Huh, we test it, use it for one, two weeks and see, huh, this actually really adds

439
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:32,480
already value. Let's ship it and then improve it later." Or maybe, "Okay, to ship it, we

440
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,480
you will need just a small improvement to make it shippable.

441
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,000
And it's one, two days of work.

442
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,500
So the developer who developed it,

443
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:47,000
usually in the next cycle will find some spare time

444
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,220
to finish it up.

445
00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:53,320
And because they are owner of this topic,

446
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:58,120
the developer, they are very motivated

447
00:32:58,120 --> 00:32:59,980
to deliver it to the shippable state.

448
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:03,040
That's a very good change that we did.

449
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,040
That every feature decided for the next cycle

450
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,040
has the feature's owner.

451
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,040
One developer owns the feature.

452
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,040
He's the CEO of the feature.

453
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,040
This person is responsible for the feature.

454
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,040
We have one status task.

455
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:21,040
They mention us in the task,

456
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,040
and this way we can really see the progress.

457
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,040
In the status task, they report the progress on the feature.

458
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,520
plus of course they prepare other tasks in the project. Every feature has a different project in

459
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:36,360
Osmo Teams. It's amazing. I think in every leadership book or every management book,

460
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:44,120
they repeatedly tell you, "Ownership is key." If somebody feels like an owner, they feel differently

461
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:52,680
about things. It goes to things, it goes to people, and it goes to concepts. Really, if a

462
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:58,200
a developer feels like an owner of the feature, CEO of the feature, they really take good care of it.

463
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:07,080
They really care about it. They really ask for feedback. They really feel responsible for delivering it and feel proud when it's shipped.

464
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:13,960
So it's like the whole mix of feelings of being an owner. And I think this part is really amazing that we have that.

465
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,960
And I'm really glad because my effort is no longer needed

466
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:24,000
during the cycle to giving a feedback and make product decisions.

467
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,000
Because we make decisions after it's shipped to dogfooding, only then.

468
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:34,160
And at the beginning of the cycle, we just have a kickoff meeting where me,

469
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,840
designer, and two devs, back-end and front-end, or only front-end or only back-end,

470
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:44,160
depends on feature, but one of them always is the leader, the CEO of the feature.

471
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:49,160
And just we make sure that this Shaped App document, usually

472
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:54,160
comment in the Nozbe team's app, that we are all on the same page

473
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:59,160
and that the project team and the owner

474
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:04,160
of the feature understands what needs to be done. And then they are

475
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:11,840
on their own and they can make a product decision, they can cut the scope, etc.

476
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:19,200
Yeah, and many times they just learn how to design UI based on the components we already have in the

477
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:26,240
app. And if we decide that UI is not good enough, then we ask Hubert, our UI designer, to prepare

478
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:32,240
specs to improve it. But that will be done as an improvement later in the future cycles.

479
00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:36,000
But again, this is the best part. They first built with the blocks that we have.

480
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,000
So it's like building with LEGO. You first build with something that you have,

481
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,880
and then later you see it and you're like "ah, yeah, it could be improved, it could be a bit slightly better,

482
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,760
you could do something here and use a different block, or maybe design a different block or whatever."

483
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,720
So it's like you build with what you have first, and then later you improve upon it.

484
00:35:54,720 --> 00:36:02,200
Many times we just ship to production like this cheapo version, because we decided it already adds value to our users.

485
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,200
But sometimes it requires more work.

486
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,200
For example, we have on the coding features like team comments,

487
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:16,200
or we change the way on the coding how repeat tasks works and comments inside of them.

488
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:21,200
But we decided it requires more work to be shippable,

489
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,200
but it hasn't been prioritized yet.

490
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:31,200
Or, lesson three, when we had design fight meeting, we discussed time needed feature.

491
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:37,000
And this is the kind of feature that really requires UI work first.

492
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,500
It's not possible to implement it Chippo.

493
00:36:39,500 --> 00:36:45,400
Our Chippo approach is not applicable for 100% of things we can do,

494
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,800
but once it is applicable, it works very well.

495
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:55,400
One of the things that we discussed during the satisfaction and the quarterly feedback loop,

496
00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:00,400
we decided that we should use the Chippo also for design.

497
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,160
So sometimes we should implement a very Chippo feature

498
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,160
just to see where it goes before we actually design it.

499
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,800
So there's one particular feature.

500
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:12,840
I'm not gonna mention it right now

501
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,880
to not to get everyone's hopes up,

502
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:16,360
but there is one particular feature

503
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,680
which I wanted to have implemented quickly

504
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,800
on our dog foodings, so just for us,

505
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,240
just to see if the basic premise,

506
00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:29,120
The basic mechanism of this feature would actually work if this is something that would change our

507
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:36,000
habit, change the way we do stuff, before we polish it out. Just to see if it works.

508
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:42,480
Because I was just tired of just designing it and thinking about it in abstract, in theory.

509
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:49,520
So we decided that we should also have appetite for these kind of experiments, just to launch

510
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,080
something that we might not ship at all. We might just take away from us back, you know?

511
00:37:54,080 --> 00:38:00,800
But to launch something internally just to see where it goes and to see if it's really something

512
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:07,040
that we would miss if we take it away. >> But as I mentioned, this repeat tasks

513
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:11,280
and how comments appear in the recurring tasks. >> Yes.

514
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:18,880
>> This is the perfect example. We really spent a lot of time of designing how it's supposed to work

515
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:24,640
better and we cannot find a final conclusion. We implemented some

516
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:30,200
cheapo assumption and we learned from this. We don't like it. Yes, we don't like

517
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:35,680
it but there are aspects of it that we like it but as a general we

518
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,280
don't like it so it's not not shifted. This is really great

519
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:46,360
where we can have one week or two or three days appetite to just

520
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:57,560
explore it. Once you can click physically see it working, the basic concept, then you learn so much

521
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:03,640
more about that and you can really make further decisions more easily. There is another thing that

522
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:08,760
I wanted to discuss with you, Rafał, which I think we haven't discussed, so you'll be surprised.

523
00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:16,240
On recent QoS meeting, QoS is our quality support meeting.

524
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:19,840
We'll discuss it probably in the future.

525
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,200
But the idea is that I get lots of feedback

526
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,040
from the customer support,

527
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,160
like what people really want,

528
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,080
what people really are struggling with.

529
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,040
And the thing is that, for example,

530
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:31,520
Nozbe Teams app is already past the point

531
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,160
that it's a very usable app for us.

532
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,080
So it's already very usable app for us.

533
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:39,720
We've been using it for the last two years

534
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:42,080
from the very beginning, and we suffered through its shortcomings.

535
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,420
But now we don't have that many shortcomings, like our team.

536
00:39:45,420 --> 00:39:50,120
But there are shortcomings that still are part of the vision of the product,

537
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:56,780
but there are features which we wouldn't use so much, but our customers would.

538
00:39:56,780 --> 00:40:03,460
So they keep on sending us this feature request that, in our case, not really that necessary,

539
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:09,120
But we see the point. We see that it makes sense in their context, for their industry.

540
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,880
So we would need to really, every cycle, incorporate more features requested from customers,

541
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:25,400
features that might not be so interesting for us.

542
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,920
And I was thinking that maybe with that, we could think about expanding our dogfooding program.

543
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:38,720
So to have three steps. Have a step of dogfooding for us. This is our app with all the

544
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:45,120
dogfooding stuff, so they're just all the cutting edge. But then if we know we can ship

545
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:50,720
something to customers to show them, we could have a dogfooding for customers. And these customers

546
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:58,640
could, the idea is this, they would have normal production app, but they could explicitly,

547
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:03,640
this one app, not their account, but this one app, or maybe their account, I don't know.

548
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:08,140
But they could switch to tester mode, because some of our customers have expressed this thing.

549
00:41:08,140 --> 00:41:13,640
They would want to test early features before they are shipped.

550
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,840
So we could enable them and we would tell them, guys,

551
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,340
these are not features that, this is not the final state of the features.

552
00:41:20,340 --> 00:41:26,440
These are experimental features.

553
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,540
So really experimental stuff.

554
00:41:24,540 --> 00:41:29,540
Yeah, the things might change.

555
00:41:29,540 --> 00:41:31,620
The things might change or might be taken away from you.

556
00:41:31,620 --> 00:41:34,380
Yeah, like Couple does with beta.

557
00:41:34,380 --> 00:41:37,660
Exactly.

558
00:41:37,660 --> 00:41:39,300
So this way we could have a dogfooding for customers

559
00:41:39,300 --> 00:41:42,100
because then, for example, we can tell a customer

560
00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:44,620
who requests a feature for, let's say, their industry,

561
00:41:44,620 --> 00:41:48,660
and we think it's a very good general feature for everyone,

562
00:41:48,660 --> 00:41:51,580
but the request was from them, we can tell them,

563
00:41:51,580 --> 00:41:54,020
"You know, man, it's been shipped to customer dogfooding,

564
00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:55,700
So if you switch to that mode, you can test it out

565
00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:57,300
and let us know if this is what you wanted,

566
00:41:57,300 --> 00:41:59,220
if this is what you feel.

567
00:41:59,220 --> 00:42:00,700
And this way they could test it

568
00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:02,860
before we ship it for everyone.

569
00:42:02,860 --> 00:42:04,780
- Yeah, like we could have it.

570
00:42:04,780 --> 00:42:06,860
I would call it just a beta version

571
00:42:06,860 --> 00:42:11,860
because like as Apple showed us in beta, things might change.

572
00:42:11,860 --> 00:42:12,980
It's not like the-

573
00:42:12,980 --> 00:42:13,940
- I mean, yeah, exactly.

574
00:42:13,940 --> 00:42:16,300
Like this summer in the beta version,

575
00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:20,100
there was a big woo-ha-ha about Safari and stuff.

576
00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:22,260
and they have really iterated on it,

577
00:42:22,260 --> 00:42:23,860
be based on the customer feedback.

578
00:42:23,860 --> 00:42:27,980
- Yes, and it proved that the process of beta

579
00:42:27,980 --> 00:42:29,780
works actually very well.

580
00:42:29,780 --> 00:42:31,920
- Exactly, so I think next year,

581
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,980
this will be our time to really think about it

582
00:42:33,980 --> 00:42:36,160
and really design this kind of beta program

583
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,100
for our customers.

584
00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:39,060
- So it's like, we already talked about it

585
00:42:39,060 --> 00:42:41,180
with the development team,

586
00:42:41,180 --> 00:42:45,540
because it would add some additional effort

587
00:42:45,540 --> 00:42:48,100
to our weekly release schedule process.

588
00:42:48,100 --> 00:42:48,940
- Complexity.

589
00:42:48,940 --> 00:42:58,540
we really need to make sure that it's done, that our weekly release schedule wouldn't be hard.

590
00:42:58,540 --> 00:43:06,540
But probably it will start only on web first and later on native apps. But yeah, this is something

591
00:43:06,540 --> 00:43:14,700
for the next year to improve. I would also like to improve transparency, as I said at the beginning

592
00:43:14,700 --> 00:43:20,860
of the segment. And I want to make product changelog, so our release notes, to be more

593
00:43:20,860 --> 00:43:27,100
user-friendly and more marketing-friendly. So we can actually have those announcements of features

594
00:43:27,100 --> 00:43:35,100
earlier. Because what we learned for almost two years of shipping Nozbe teams,

595
00:43:35,100 --> 00:43:39,900
we are really, really good at shipping because we shipped 45 versions of Nozbe this year.

596
00:43:40,460 --> 00:43:42,700
So we are pretty good at it.

597
00:43:42,700 --> 00:43:44,700
Like finally, because in Nozbe personal,

598
00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:48,860
it was the whole process when, yeah, we, it was, yeah,

599
00:43:48,860 --> 00:43:50,420
it was, it was a mess.

600
00:43:50,420 --> 00:43:53,420
Like to ship a Nozbe personal update,

601
00:43:53,420 --> 00:43:57,340
like it was the whole week for me to work on.

602
00:43:57,340 --> 00:43:58,300
Yeah.

603
00:43:58,300 --> 00:44:00,380
I couldn't work on anything else.

604
00:44:00,380 --> 00:44:03,540
And what we learned from this,

605
00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:08,140
we implemented in Nozbe teams process and it really, yeah.

606
00:44:08,140 --> 00:44:09,740
I really like how it works.

607
00:44:09,740 --> 00:44:19,740
So yeah, and I think I could slowly start improving this product change log and even incorporate some stuff that we have like this in this beta channel.

608
00:44:19,740 --> 00:44:27,740
We would have or we are testing on DocFooning and we are comfortable with sharing this but we are working on this.

609
00:44:27,740 --> 00:44:33,740
I was wondering, maybe I can help you with that. Maybe we should really host the change log.

610
00:44:33,740 --> 00:44:38,740
I see many, many companies, many small companies, like ours, they do that.

611
00:44:38,740 --> 00:44:42,020
more transparent and then maybe as we mentioned like we have already this new

612
00:44:42,020 --> 00:44:46,740
new new new segment in in Nozbe teams so you can see you know the latest block

613
00:44:46,740 --> 00:44:50,700
posts related to Nozbe teams in the in the feed so you can you know read about

614
00:44:50,700 --> 00:44:54,660
new features and all that stuff but over there we want to add this additional you

615
00:44:54,660 --> 00:45:00,700
know changelog so people can see yeah what what happens is the last version

616
00:45:00,700 --> 00:45:05,180
and this way they every week they can read something new in the app and not

617
00:45:05,180 --> 00:45:09,780
somewhere on the help page somewhere else. Yeah, yeah, and I was thinking like

618
00:45:09,780 --> 00:45:14,500
because currently we just have release notes with like simple points. Yes. The

619
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:20,020
name of new feature but maybe I could add to it like one sentence, two sentences

620
00:45:20,020 --> 00:45:25,700
how it can be used or maybe even a screenshot or something. Yeah. Yeah. We

621
00:45:25,700 --> 00:45:31,500
will see. I need to shape it up and yeah I want to do it like during this

622
00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:37,580
holiday season because I would have some days to work on. So that's our

623
00:45:37,580 --> 00:45:44,420
lessons learned from one year of using this product development process.

624
00:45:44,420 --> 00:45:51,060
Actually it's based on ShapeApp by BaseCamps but we adapted many things to our needs.

625
00:45:51,060 --> 00:45:56,460
Yeah and but I think one of the also takeaways is the lean

626
00:45:56,460 --> 00:46:00,060
manufacturing. Keep improving the process so make it really effortless

627
00:46:00,060 --> 00:46:05,060
so that you can ship effortlessly 45 versions of app.

628
00:46:05,060 --> 00:46:08,760
This five weeks cycle, that really worked great for us.

629
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,960
And we have that respect in every five cycles.

630
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,260
And we see it's a sweet spot.

631
00:46:16,260 --> 00:46:18,560
Because every retrospection we had,

632
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,660
it took us between 50 and 65 minutes.

633
00:46:20,660 --> 00:46:26,660
And we always have four or five improvements.

634
00:46:26,660 --> 00:46:29,960
And before we used to have that session

635
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:32,560
that took two or three hours and we had 15 improvements to implement.

636
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:37,560
It was like, "Whoa, too much."

637
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,260
That's the thing.

638
00:46:39,260 --> 00:46:40,000
We forgot that we have to be more agile.

639
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,260
And actually, it's fun to be agile.

640
00:46:43,260 --> 00:46:46,100
It's fun to improve things, and things are happening in the background.

641
00:46:46,100 --> 00:46:50,820
Things are happening automatically.

642
00:46:50,820 --> 00:46:52,420
It's funny that in our small team,

643
00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:58,760
this whole concept of improving the process, which sounds really boring, is fun.

644
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:07,880
We actually didn't touch the "horizon expanding month" concept,

645
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,760
but I think that's the topic for another episode in the future.

646
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:22,920
Yeah, because Radek is constantly fighting that we have a constant effort, appetite available for

647
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:28,920
improving this process. Because when we stop improving, we stop just

648
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:33,080
ship, when we switch to just shipping, shipping, shipping, shipping, after a couple

649
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:38,320
of months we will have the process broken. Because it has to be

650
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,520
maintained to be efficient. Yes, completely. So that's why it's

651
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:49,200
fun. It is fun to see that and it is fun to be iterating on it. And really

652
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:56,240
that's why I really again I want to repeat that you know stop every quarter stop and just you know

653
00:47:56,240 --> 00:48:04,000
at least and re-evaluate but also what Rafal said incorporate constant improvements in the process

654
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,960
so like every week basically you get better like every week there is some improvement like just

655
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,840
today we discussed some of the improvements we want to do in this podcast you know um

656
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:20,160
production process. Every time there is this repeating process, see if there is something

657
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:25,920
that, you know, some low-hanging fruit as they call it, something that can be quickly fixed,

658
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:31,520
can be improved, can be automated. And for this, Mighty Flyday is perfect because very often

659
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:38,880
developers, if they have something that annoys them in the process, like for example a CI machine

660
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:45,760
that prepares builds is kind of broken or inefficient in some way. They fix it on mighty

661
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:46,760
flyday.

662
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:53,080
Yeah, we just bought a Mac Mini. Speaking of getting back to the gear and the geeky

663
00:48:53,080 --> 00:49:02,120
stuff, we bought a Mac Mini, M1 Mac Mini as our Mac server for our CI and for our developer

664
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:10,040
needs and it's glorious. It works very well and it improved the build times of our apps like

665
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:18,200
three, four times fold. So this way, when they do something to fix, very quickly there is a build,

666
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:25,160
there is a new app and we can test the new version right away. So again, these short improvements of

667
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:30,680
time that you don't have to wait half an hour for the new build to ship, but 10 minutes instead,

668
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:35,880
It's fantastic. Yeah, and it's very important because we want to introduce like native desktop

669
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:42,520
apps like for Windows and Mac and it would add a time for the build server to build those every time

670
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:49,240
there is new change. Yeah, so. Spoiler alert, I'm already using the Mac app on my Mac. It still

671
00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:55,480
needs some tweaking and some working so Radek is on it but it's very promising so stay tuned.

672
00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:03,160
I can't wait for 2022 because we have many exciting things to work on and to ship.

673
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:11,000
On all fronts, really. On the product front, on the marketing front, on the business front,

674
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:17,880
lots of good things. I teased some announcements, which we haven't done in December, and I decided

675
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:22,880
not to do them.

676
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:24,040
So just for all our users, stay tuned.

677
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,960
We will have smaller announcements in January

678
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,360
and then a big announcement in the beginning of February

679
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,040
as we celebrate our 15th anniversary,

680
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,880
15 years of Nozbe in business.

681
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,520
So there will be cool things in the pipeline, really.

682
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,680
Next year is going to be something.

683
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,320
Really can't wait.

684
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:51,840
I think it's time to wrap up this episode. We will talk about my iPad Mini next time.

685
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,680
I will gather more thoughts, so don't worry.

686
00:50:55,680 --> 00:51:01,840
Alright, thanks for listening guys and remember, tomorrow what day is it, Michael?

687
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,240
It's Friday and it's a mighty Friday.

688
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:09,520
Yeah, so remember to do your weekly review, plan priorities for next week and

689
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:15,600
learn something new or improve something in the process that you are in your work through. That

690
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:21,520
way you will have a great weekend and great next week because on Monday you can jump on

691
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:28,320
to your priority list and start getting things done. If you enjoyed this episode please feel

692
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:35,840
free to help support this podcast either by sharing it with a friend or checking out our

693
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:41,360
Nozbe Teams app. So I think that's it for today. Say goodbye, Michael. So just

694
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:47,440
house cleaning before we wrap it up. In two weeks we will not see you, so

695
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:52,080
Merry Christmas. We are taking a Christmas break, so we will see you in

696
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:56,760
four weeks. We are taking a Christmas break and I think everyone deserves it,

697
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,860
so Merry Christmas to everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in, for being part of

698
00:52:00,860 --> 00:52:07,340
this show for making this show constantly reaching more people. So we are very, very grateful.

699
00:52:07,340 --> 00:52:11,580
Thank you so much. And if you could rate us on iTunes in the meantime, because you have some more

700
00:52:11,580 --> 00:52:19,340
time, it would be fantastic. So see you in four weeks at the beginning of exactly, we will be

701
00:52:19,340 --> 00:52:27,180
recording on the January 13th, which is my daughter's birthday. And then we will ship on the January 14th.

702
00:52:27,180 --> 00:52:33,580
and until then, you know, make your new plans, plan your new year, use Nozbe to do it,

703
00:52:33,580 --> 00:52:37,660
and make the 2022 your best year ever.

704
00:52:37,660 --> 00:52:52,380
This episode has not been created in the office because in Nozbe there is no workpiece.

705
00:52:52,380 --> 00:52:55,500
Your hosts were Michael Sliwinski and Rafalso Bolewski.

706
00:52:55,500 --> 00:53:00,860
all the links and show notes you can find on nooffice.fm/32.

707
00:53:00,860 --> 00:53:07,820
The whole production process of this episode has been coordinated in a project in a Nozbe Teams app.

708
00:53:07,820 --> 00:53:16,060
Control is good, but trust, transparency and asynchronous communication are so much better.

709
00:53:16,060 --> 00:53:19,660
Thank you and see you in 4 weeks.

710
00:53:20,220 --> 00:53:34,780
remember to have a mighty fly day, merry Christmas and a happy new year.

711
00:53:34,780 --> 00:53:51,980
[Music]