WEBVTT 00:00:03.060 --> 00:00:06.510 Matt Abrahams: Moments lead to movements, which lead to momentum. 00:00:06.915 --> 00:00:10.004 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:10.004 --> 00:00:11.684 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:11.925 --> 00:00:15.195 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:15.645 --> 00:00:18.795 Today I am super excited to talk to my friends and mentors, 00:00:19.185 --> 00:00:22.015 Jonathan Berek and Phil Polakoff. 00:00:22.065 --> 00:00:25.185 Jonathan is a renowned gynecological oncologist. 00:00:25.335 --> 00:00:28.125 He is a professor at Stanford School of Medicine and a former 00:00:28.125 --> 00:00:31.065 chair of the Stanford Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology. 00:00:31.365 --> 00:00:34.635 In addition to his extensive medical career, he is an active 00:00:34.635 --> 00:00:38.535 documentary filmmaker, creating and directing films on medical topics 00:00:38.535 --> 00:00:40.485 with a focus on patient stories. 00:00:40.665 --> 00:00:43.335 He's also the faculty director of Health Communication for the 00:00:43.335 --> 00:00:46.875 Stanford Center for Health Education, where he promotes effective medical 00:00:46.875 --> 00:00:48.525 communication and health media. 00:00:48.915 --> 00:00:52.095 Phil is a distinguished health transformation advisor, a consulting 00:00:52.095 --> 00:00:55.485 professor at Stanford School of Medicine, and a widely published author. 00:00:55.845 --> 00:00:59.505 With a career spanning 45 years, he has held diverse roles from a nominee 00:00:59.505 --> 00:01:04.935 for US Surgeon General to CEO of his own nonprofit, A Healthier WE, which 00:01:04.935 --> 00:01:06.615 is dedicated to improving health. 00:01:06.825 --> 00:01:09.735 He's the author of 5 books and more than 200 articles, making 00:01:09.735 --> 00:01:13.545 him a leading voice in healthcare innovation, policy, and administration. 00:01:13.935 --> 00:01:17.360 Welcome, Phil and Jonathan, I am really excited to have you here. 00:01:17.360 --> 00:01:18.705 It's been a long time coming. 00:01:18.705 --> 00:01:19.575 Thanks for joining me. 00:01:20.745 --> 00:01:21.045 Phil Polakoff: Thank you. 00:01:21.045 --> 00:01:21.645 Jonathan Berek: Thank you very much. 00:01:21.945 --> 00:01:22.695 Matt Abrahams: Shall we get started? 00:01:22.965 --> 00:01:23.600 Jonathan Berek: Yeah, absolutely. 00:01:23.600 --> 00:01:24.080 Matt Abrahams: Awesome. 00:01:24.885 --> 00:01:28.095 Beyond being medical professionals, you each have worked hard to draw 00:01:28.095 --> 00:01:32.565 attention to and solicit money for important healthcare issues. 00:01:32.745 --> 00:01:35.715 Jonathan, can you share a bit about your work to bring attention and 00:01:35.715 --> 00:01:37.635 funding to women's cancer issues? 00:01:37.905 --> 00:01:41.775 Jonathan Berek: Yeah, so when I came to Stanford 20 years ago, I realized 00:01:41.775 --> 00:01:46.740 in putting together the Stanford Women's Cancer Center that we needed 00:01:46.919 --> 00:01:49.139 more than just governmental funding. 00:01:49.169 --> 00:01:54.059 I put together with the help of many women, in particular, in the Stanford 00:01:54.059 --> 00:01:58.470 area, a philanthropic project called Under One Umbrella, where we raised 00:01:58.470 --> 00:02:01.589 money for women's cancer research. 00:02:01.805 --> 00:02:06.035 Those monies have been used to recruit people to create endowed 00:02:06.035 --> 00:02:10.685 professorships and also support our clinical research trials group, as 00:02:10.685 --> 00:02:12.965 well as giving out innovation awards. 00:02:13.205 --> 00:02:17.765 And that's really helped to improve our research capabilities and all the 00:02:17.765 --> 00:02:20.225 activities at Stanford Cancer Center. 00:02:20.405 --> 00:02:22.505 Matt Abrahams: People around the area and around the world 00:02:22.505 --> 00:02:23.795 have benefited from that work. 00:02:23.795 --> 00:02:25.560 So thank you on behalf of all of them. 00:02:26.130 --> 00:02:27.119 Phil, your turn. 00:02:27.149 --> 00:02:29.730 Can you share a little bit about what you've been doing to highlight 00:02:29.730 --> 00:02:31.410 healthcare inequity issues? 00:02:31.739 --> 00:02:34.170 Phil Polakoff: I go back in a different direction, not better or 00:02:34.170 --> 00:02:36.630 worse than my friend Jonathan's. 00:02:36.899 --> 00:02:39.660 Mine's a little bit more holistic on the word health. 00:02:39.899 --> 00:02:44.190 In 1948, the World Health Organization put forth, there's definition of health. 00:02:44.339 --> 00:02:48.480 Health is a state of complete physical, mental, social, and I inserted the 00:02:48.480 --> 00:02:52.290 word spiritual, wellbeing, not merely the absence of disease or infirm. 00:02:52.500 --> 00:02:57.180 So I'm looking at how people improve their health, and I've seen healthcare and sick 00:02:57.180 --> 00:02:59.430 care through all the different lenses. 00:02:59.549 --> 00:03:03.370 So the challenge has always been how do you effectively have change 00:03:03.390 --> 00:03:05.519 transformation, which is not easy. 00:03:05.730 --> 00:03:09.480 Early in my career, I was a clinical investigative officer for the 00:03:09.480 --> 00:03:11.570 CDC Centers for Disease Control. 00:03:11.570 --> 00:03:15.390 I traveled around this country with a new organization called the National Institute 00:03:15.390 --> 00:03:16.859 for Occupational Safety and Health. 00:03:17.225 --> 00:03:21.605 And I got to see both urban and rural issues, and that's where my passion's 00:03:21.605 --> 00:03:27.165 been, to see the three Ps. Practicalities, policies, and political will. 00:03:27.405 --> 00:03:32.085 For me, the real opportunity now is can we cross the chasm and bridge the gap 00:03:32.265 --> 00:03:34.635 so it becomes for all of our society. 00:03:34.965 --> 00:03:37.455 Matt Abrahams: And that work has been really important in the past 00:03:37.455 --> 00:03:38.775 and even more important today. 00:03:38.805 --> 00:03:41.805 Phil Polakoff: It's mission critical now, crisis to opportunity. 00:03:42.150 --> 00:03:42.870 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:47.370 Not only are you both steeped in the medical business and world, but 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:51.480 interestingly, you both use very effective communication tools to 00:03:51.480 --> 00:03:52.859 bring your message to the public. 00:03:52.859 --> 00:03:54.570 You both, for example, use film. 00:03:54.810 --> 00:03:58.049 I'm curious to learn your thoughts on the importance of storytelling 00:03:58.049 --> 00:04:01.920 to move and motivate people, and what goes into a good story. 00:04:01.920 --> 00:04:04.709 I know Jonathan, for example, you've directed many films. 00:04:04.859 --> 00:04:06.660 I'm curious to get your take on storytelling. 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:09.549 Jonathan Berek: When I was an undergraduate student, I was very 00:04:09.549 --> 00:04:11.500 involved in creative writing. 00:04:11.530 --> 00:04:16.149 I wrote plays, short stories, and I was very involved in the theater, did a 00:04:16.149 --> 00:04:20.019 lot of acting, directing, and actually for a while thought I was going to 00:04:20.019 --> 00:04:24.130 end up in the theater, but decided to go to medical school after all. 00:04:24.280 --> 00:04:28.420 But what I learned during that time is the value of storytelling 00:04:28.420 --> 00:04:32.320 and how powerful it is in terms of engaging people with a message. 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:38.470 Sometimes much more valuable to do it that way rather than just write it out. 00:04:38.710 --> 00:04:43.450 I had the opportunity in the past couple of decades to get into filmmaking 00:04:43.630 --> 00:04:47.140 as more as a hobby originally, although now it's become a passion, 00:04:47.200 --> 00:04:51.700 and I do a considerable amount of filmmaking, mostly short documentaries. 00:04:51.940 --> 00:04:56.890 People are more likely to listen to something that's in a film 00:04:57.010 --> 00:04:58.600 than they are in the written word. 00:04:58.935 --> 00:05:01.335 I think it's part of our culture now because we're the 00:05:01.425 --> 00:05:03.345 television film generation. 00:05:03.495 --> 00:05:07.005 People feel the emotion when they see a story. 00:05:07.185 --> 00:05:13.965 In my case, I do a lot of medical related types of films and I use patient stories, 00:05:13.995 --> 00:05:18.435 which tears at the heartstrings often, and I think that gets the message across 00:05:18.435 --> 00:05:21.925 more than if I were to just say, well, I'm doing this little science project. 00:05:21.925 --> 00:05:24.710 And there's this molecule, and we're trying to do that, and 00:05:24.710 --> 00:05:26.390 people, their eyes glaze over. 00:05:26.450 --> 00:05:31.070 But if they hear a patient's story, if they hear someone saying, I 00:05:31.070 --> 00:05:35.960 took this drug, or I was on this medication and it gave me a remission 00:05:35.960 --> 00:05:37.820 in my cancer, people get that. 00:05:37.880 --> 00:05:42.470 They understand and they think, wow, this is a very important medical advance. 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:44.480 Matt Abrahams: So I hear a couple things in that response. 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:49.750 One is storytelling that has emotion can really connect to people, and 00:05:49.750 --> 00:05:53.825 storytelling that is personal, that brings it down to an individual level, 00:05:53.825 --> 00:05:55.355 can really help with that connection. 00:05:55.655 --> 00:05:59.915 Phil, you have also used film and media to really move people. 00:05:59.915 --> 00:06:03.785 I recall watching one of your films talking about Appalachia, and things 00:06:03.785 --> 00:06:08.165 going on in healthcare, and was very moved and part of what impressed me so 00:06:08.165 --> 00:06:10.735 much was actually seeing the things. 00:06:10.795 --> 00:06:11.845 It's one thing to read it. 00:06:11.845 --> 00:06:12.835 It's another thing to see it. 00:06:13.075 --> 00:06:15.295 What's your take on the importance of storytelling and 00:06:15.295 --> 00:06:16.495 what makes for a good story? 00:06:16.765 --> 00:06:20.095 Phil Polakoff: I find it intriguing, or the intersection between 00:06:20.095 --> 00:06:24.025 Jonathan and I, our evolution was almost along a similar path. 00:06:24.175 --> 00:06:28.825 In the process I started doing radio shows and back then I found they were more 00:06:28.825 --> 00:06:33.595 interactive than podcasts today 'cause I would get questions from the audience. 00:06:33.849 --> 00:06:37.330 And then I saw it being a little different than Jonathan, but I 00:06:37.330 --> 00:06:39.190 was heavily involved in politics. 00:06:39.340 --> 00:06:44.080 So at a very young age, while he was doing his surgical training and his academic 00:06:44.080 --> 00:06:48.219 and all that, I was running for Lieutenant Governor of California when I was 32. 00:06:48.490 --> 00:06:52.479 So you realize that you had to be empathetic, but you had to say things that 00:06:52.479 --> 00:06:55.479 were very precise and very short on words. 00:06:55.599 --> 00:06:57.010 So that's my pearl. 00:06:57.159 --> 00:06:59.320 I now have the trifecta of words. 00:06:59.500 --> 00:07:02.620 So it could be what are the three most important thing in one's life? 00:07:03.135 --> 00:07:05.565 It's relationships, it's service and purpose. 00:07:05.775 --> 00:07:08.685 Two, how do you deal with social issues? 00:07:08.775 --> 00:07:11.025 You listen more, speak less. 00:07:11.145 --> 00:07:13.875 Three, think bold, start small. 00:07:13.995 --> 00:07:15.525 Move with passion and purpose. 00:07:15.975 --> 00:07:19.065 Because people don't have longevity. 00:07:19.365 --> 00:07:20.535 Matt Abrahams: So a lot of insight there. 00:07:20.535 --> 00:07:25.275 So being concise and clear, highlighting bright spots are ways to enhance 00:07:25.275 --> 00:07:26.805 a story so that it's memorable. 00:07:27.135 --> 00:07:31.125 You are embodying, Phil, a saying my mom has, which is to tell 00:07:31.125 --> 00:07:33.375 the time, don't build the clock. 00:07:33.585 --> 00:07:34.575 Be very concise. 00:07:34.605 --> 00:07:35.295 Be very clear. 00:07:35.505 --> 00:07:39.165 One of the things I have enjoyed in our, in getting to know you and having 00:07:39.165 --> 00:07:44.360 you as friends and mentors is you both have really nice communication 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:46.010 styles that are really effective. 00:07:46.010 --> 00:07:49.700 You're just both affable, super bright, and very articulate. 00:07:49.700 --> 00:07:53.600 Do you have advice for people on how they can be better communicators? 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:56.810 You're around a lot of people and you see a lot of people communicate. 00:07:57.050 --> 00:08:01.040 Phil, are there a few things that you would recommend, suggest, advise people 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:04.220 to do to improve their communication beyond being concise and clear? 00:08:04.280 --> 00:08:07.310 Phil Polakoff: Coming in front with Jonathan and you, I thought 00:08:07.310 --> 00:08:08.360 about what was important. 00:08:08.790 --> 00:08:12.660 Make sure you do your homework ahead of time and have the questions distilled. 00:08:12.990 --> 00:08:18.570 Find mentors in your life that can help you and look to have opportunities 00:08:18.570 --> 00:08:20.580 that are outside of your comfort zone. 00:08:20.910 --> 00:08:22.590 Matt Abrahams: Lots of goodness in that statement. 00:08:23.280 --> 00:08:25.770 Jonathan, one of the things that's always impressed me about you is you are able 00:08:25.770 --> 00:08:30.360 to take very complex, often scientific information and make it very relatable. 00:08:30.540 --> 00:08:34.200 Can you share how you do that so we can all benefit? 00:08:34.230 --> 00:08:38.070 What are some of the things you think about to make the very academic, very 00:08:38.070 --> 00:08:41.585 scientific information something that we can all understand and access? 00:08:41.775 --> 00:08:44.865 Jonathan Berek: I guess the first thing I think of is the process of what some 00:08:44.865 --> 00:08:49.455 people call leveling, which is be sure that first of all, you know your audience. 00:08:49.635 --> 00:08:55.065 And so, you communicate in a style and with words and phrases that you think will 00:08:55.065 --> 00:08:57.225 connect with that particular audience. 00:08:57.345 --> 00:09:01.065 When you're speaking to a lay audience about a complex medical 00:09:01.065 --> 00:09:04.425 issue, you don't speak down to them and you don't speak up to them. 00:09:04.575 --> 00:09:08.205 You try to get to their level, and that's the best way to connect. 00:09:08.599 --> 00:09:09.290 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:09:09.290 --> 00:09:12.050 And one of the things that you do, and I'd love to get Phil's comment on 00:09:12.050 --> 00:09:14.810 this as well, you listen very well. 00:09:15.020 --> 00:09:19.010 Many people I know with the accolades and backgrounds, such as you both 00:09:19.010 --> 00:09:22.370 have, almost use listening as the starting gun for their talking. 00:09:22.459 --> 00:09:26.930 Jonathan, you and I, we met, uh, you were a student in one of my classes and I 00:09:26.930 --> 00:09:31.910 was so impressed right away with how you listened to our MBA students who, whose 00:09:31.910 --> 00:09:35.030 life experience is very different than your life experience was at that point. 00:09:35.439 --> 00:09:38.190 And yet, you would listen, you would acknowledge what they said, 00:09:38.190 --> 00:09:39.570 and then you would connect to it. 00:09:39.930 --> 00:09:42.480 How important is listening in all of this? 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:44.910 Jonathan Berek: Well, I think the two most important skills in 00:09:44.910 --> 00:09:48.000 communication are empathy and listening. 00:09:48.420 --> 00:09:53.430 And they are related because you demonstrate empathy through listening 00:09:53.430 --> 00:09:57.780 and of course, other phrases that you use to connect with people with 00:09:57.780 --> 00:09:59.130 whom you're trying to communicate. 00:09:59.219 --> 00:10:02.550 You have to have an open mind and an open heart, as they say, 00:10:02.880 --> 00:10:04.030 when you communicate with people. 00:10:04.710 --> 00:10:08.640 I think a couple of things that Phil said are important to emphasize. 00:10:08.940 --> 00:10:13.620 Doing one's homework, being prepared is critically important, and to 00:10:13.620 --> 00:10:17.640 quote an actor who says the other important thing is show up on time. 00:10:18.630 --> 00:10:24.210 It really has to do with demonstrating your availability and your awareness 00:10:24.210 --> 00:10:27.480 of the circumstance and the situation, so people take you serious. 00:10:27.750 --> 00:10:30.870 That's very important when you're communicating to an audience. 00:10:31.170 --> 00:10:33.960 Matt Abrahams: You're showing respect and you're showing that I'm here for you. 00:10:34.380 --> 00:10:37.829 Phil, talk to me a bit about your perspective on listening and empathy, 00:10:38.040 --> 00:10:39.660 and you're expert at both, I'm curious. 00:10:40.170 --> 00:10:42.990 Phil Polakoff: As you get a little older, two words have more impact 00:10:42.990 --> 00:10:46.410 to me than they used to, and I've gotten to the point where I'm 00:10:47.115 --> 00:10:49.905 patient, but I like a yes or a no. 00:10:50.565 --> 00:10:53.235 I don't like ambivalence or ambiguity. 00:10:53.445 --> 00:10:55.485 If you don't want to do it, that's okay. 00:10:55.995 --> 00:10:59.985 And if you do, don't constantly ask for something without telling 00:10:59.985 --> 00:11:01.605 what you get as your deliverable. 00:11:01.845 --> 00:11:05.595 Doesn't matter if it's academia, philanthropy, but make sure 00:11:05.595 --> 00:11:10.425 there's some tangible, definable results that you believe in as you 00:11:10.605 --> 00:11:12.465 contribute to someone else's efforts. 00:11:13.110 --> 00:11:14.790 Matt Abrahams: What I'm hearing in what you just said really is 00:11:14.790 --> 00:11:16.140 about this notion of clarity. 00:11:16.140 --> 00:11:19.620 Clarity of the connection you have with the person, and taking the time to find 00:11:19.620 --> 00:11:24.180 those connections, and then clarity in the actions and communication. 00:11:24.885 --> 00:11:27.285 Jonathan, I wanna come back to one thing that you and I have 00:11:27.285 --> 00:11:30.225 collaborated on, along with my friend and your friend, Adam Tobin. 00:11:30.555 --> 00:11:34.185 You invited Adam and me to, and Adam has been a guest on the show before, 00:11:34.515 --> 00:11:39.675 to help bring ideas from the world of improvisation into the medical profession. 00:11:39.765 --> 00:11:44.145 Rather than build that whole story up, I'm just curious for you to share why 00:11:44.145 --> 00:11:49.719 you believe tenants from improv can be so important in, in really high stakes 00:11:49.719 --> 00:11:53.740 communication situations, such as a medical professional with a patient. 00:11:54.040 --> 00:11:57.189 Jonathan Berek: When we first promoted this idea, of course, 00:11:57.189 --> 00:12:00.880 my colleague said to me, improv, I don't wanna do standup comedy. 00:12:00.939 --> 00:12:03.130 And I said, well, just think about it this way. 00:12:03.219 --> 00:12:06.610 Every interaction you have with a patient, you improvise. 00:12:06.670 --> 00:12:08.170 You improvise what you say. 00:12:08.350 --> 00:12:08.995 You talk around it. 00:12:09.555 --> 00:12:12.765 You don't have a script, you may have an idea of what you're gonna talk 00:12:12.765 --> 00:12:17.625 about, but the advantage of practicing a situation where you're improvising 00:12:17.685 --> 00:12:22.485 within a group is that it allows you to get more in touch with your ability 00:12:22.485 --> 00:12:26.805 to improvise so that when you're in a difficult situation with patients or 00:12:26.805 --> 00:12:28.965 others, it helps you refine your skills. 00:12:29.055 --> 00:12:32.475 And people got the notion and the sessions that you and Adam 00:12:32.475 --> 00:12:36.595 ran were very popular, very well received, and they got the message. 00:12:36.755 --> 00:12:40.220 Yeah, this is helpful, and a lot of people afterwards said, this really 00:12:40.220 --> 00:12:42.320 improved my communication skills. 00:12:42.620 --> 00:12:45.500 Matt Abrahams: The point that I wanna echo for everyone is that you 00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:48.260 can practice spontaneity, right? 00:12:48.260 --> 00:12:51.230 You can put yourself in situations, learn some rules, and that 00:12:51.230 --> 00:12:52.250 can really make a difference. 00:12:52.250 --> 00:12:55.220 Because if you think about it, most of our communication is 00:12:55.220 --> 00:12:56.790 spontaneous, it's not planned. 00:12:56.880 --> 00:12:59.550 And in high stakes situations, having that preparation can help. 00:12:59.550 --> 00:13:01.859 And I appreciate that you invited us to do that. 00:13:02.130 --> 00:13:05.910 You are both examples and role models of people who've pivoted or expanded 00:13:05.910 --> 00:13:07.439 their work later in their careers. 00:13:07.680 --> 00:13:11.319 As I'm getting older and hopefully, perhaps a little wiser, I'm curious about 00:13:11.319 --> 00:13:14.709 your thought process behind the choices you made and the moves that you made. 00:13:14.829 --> 00:13:17.410 Did you always know you wanted to become advocates or did 00:13:17.410 --> 00:13:18.969 you discover this on the way? 00:13:19.060 --> 00:13:24.069 And how has this felt and how have you communicated this change to other people? 00:13:24.069 --> 00:13:28.150 A lot of people change and pivot as they get older, but we have to explain it. 00:13:28.390 --> 00:13:31.204 Phil, how have you always thought that this is where you wanted to end up? 00:13:31.745 --> 00:13:34.204 Phil Polakoff: I don't think that's exactly my thinking. 00:13:34.204 --> 00:13:38.285 My thinking was how do you, as I said earlier, have a role in making 00:13:38.285 --> 00:13:40.145 meaningful transformation change? 00:13:40.235 --> 00:13:43.834 I think what I learned is it's less about I and more about we. 00:13:44.255 --> 00:13:48.545 There's another line that people can use in these times, if I is replaced 00:13:48.545 --> 00:13:50.975 by we, even illness becomes wellness. 00:13:50.975 --> 00:13:54.725 Only working together, will we have a healthier society. 00:13:55.305 --> 00:13:59.775 I tried many different ways, working for large healthcare corporations, 00:13:59.805 --> 00:14:04.545 looking for large corporations, the government, not-for-profit, academia, 00:14:04.665 --> 00:14:09.855 and I think what I did is I did not have enough laser focus on fewer initiatives 00:14:09.975 --> 00:14:13.365 because if you want to get something done, you have to be laser focused. 00:14:13.365 --> 00:14:17.295 And you can't be a clinician and a politician and see patients at the 00:14:17.295 --> 00:14:20.625 same time you're trying to be an entrepreneur because you lose focus. 00:14:20.864 --> 00:14:25.425 The other thing is I think I would've benefited by some executive coaching. 00:14:25.635 --> 00:14:30.285 So right now I'm much more laser focused given the challenges we're facing on 00:14:30.494 --> 00:14:36.375 trying to have a petition sign to make health a basic human right and get 00:14:36.375 --> 00:14:41.265 this to be a bipartisan hearing in Washington so people can collectively 00:14:41.594 --> 00:14:43.984 think it's their process, not mine. 00:14:44.084 --> 00:14:49.814 Maybe we take it initiative, but you get from moment to momentum to movement. 00:14:50.115 --> 00:14:54.194 Three M'S are not easy to go from A to B to C. So you have to have the passion, 00:14:54.194 --> 00:14:57.615 but also as you get a little older, and I'm not speaking for Jonathan, 00:14:57.975 --> 00:14:59.925 moderation's a pretty important word. 00:15:00.285 --> 00:15:02.444 Don't think you can do the same thing you used to do. 00:15:02.444 --> 00:15:03.795 I was a competitive athlete. 00:15:04.095 --> 00:15:07.275 You cannot be on a rugby field all over the world again, playing 00:15:07.275 --> 00:15:09.194 rugby, it's a little bit too much. 00:15:09.555 --> 00:15:12.314 So pace yourself and have fun. 00:15:12.615 --> 00:15:16.665 I mean, I think that you're talking about empathy on, tears are great, and I don't 00:15:16.665 --> 00:15:20.760 have a problem tearing in public, but it's also nice to smile and be happy. 00:15:21.510 --> 00:15:23.849 Matt Abrahams: I like that idea of seeing interactions as the 00:15:23.849 --> 00:15:25.560 beginning of the next conversation. 00:15:25.620 --> 00:15:30.420 The ability to be focused, to moderate what you do, to have fun. 00:15:30.420 --> 00:15:33.089 That's all great advice and I hope everybody is listening 00:15:33.089 --> 00:15:34.589 to how Phil uses words. 00:15:34.589 --> 00:15:40.560 I love I to we, illness, to wellness, from moment to movement, to momentum. 00:15:40.560 --> 00:15:45.150 These are all ways to help us not just remember, but to feel 00:15:45.150 --> 00:15:47.314 a sense of ah-ha or motivation. 00:15:47.584 --> 00:15:50.314 Jonathan, tell me about your decision and arc and how 00:15:50.314 --> 00:15:51.814 you've communicated that focus. 00:15:52.560 --> 00:15:56.460 Jonathan Berek: I think as I progressed in my medical career and matured, 00:15:56.640 --> 00:16:01.650 hopefully, during that process, I was trying to look more at the big picture. 00:16:01.830 --> 00:16:05.670 You know, when you're laser focused on taking care of patients and doing 00:16:05.730 --> 00:16:10.865 research, in my case, cancer research, you have to be very dedicated to the process, 00:16:10.925 --> 00:16:16.954 but as you mature in the field, you learn the importance of mentoring others. 00:16:17.165 --> 00:16:21.845 Obviously, when I was younger, I desperately needed mentors, and 00:16:21.845 --> 00:16:23.585 I learned from that experience. 00:16:23.824 --> 00:16:27.305 I learned from you and others in the communication field. 00:16:27.515 --> 00:16:30.605 So in a way, you served as a very important mentor at 00:16:30.605 --> 00:16:31.550 the time when I needed it. 00:16:32.205 --> 00:16:34.905 Matt Abrahams: One thing I heard both you say differently, you talked about 00:16:34.905 --> 00:16:38.655 mentors and finding mentors, and you talked about coaches and finding coaches. 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:40.500 It's not a single act. 00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:43.890 You have to have others to help you, and you both have served as mentors 00:16:43.890 --> 00:16:47.520 for many people, including myself, and I am greatly appreciative of that. 00:16:48.660 --> 00:16:50.730 Before we end, I always ask three questions. 00:16:50.730 --> 00:16:53.490 One I create just for you, and two, I've been asking everybody on the show. 00:16:53.790 --> 00:16:54.660 Are you up for that? 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:55.350 Phil Polakoff: Always. 00:16:55.590 --> 00:16:56.130 Jonathan Berek: Go for it. 00:16:56.460 --> 00:16:57.030 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:16:57.330 --> 00:17:01.410 Phil, looking back at your career and success and you've had many successes, 00:17:01.590 --> 00:17:05.280 and in your case, many careers, what is one thing you wish you would've 00:17:05.280 --> 00:17:08.170 known when you were younger that would've helped you along the way? 00:17:08.764 --> 00:17:10.115 Phil Polakoff: Social interaction. 00:17:10.504 --> 00:17:14.974 The best thing that ever happened to me is when I married my wife, who's my hero, 00:17:15.365 --> 00:17:17.435 and that changed my path of direction. 00:17:17.764 --> 00:17:21.004 Matt Abrahams: So making those social connections and being open to them. 00:17:21.365 --> 00:17:22.685 Same question to you, Jonathan. 00:17:22.685 --> 00:17:24.845 What is one thing you wish you would've known that would've 00:17:24.994 --> 00:17:26.044 helped you along the way? 00:17:26.405 --> 00:17:27.425 Jonathan Berek: How to be smarter. 00:17:27.869 --> 00:17:32.730 I think when you're young and you're invincible and you think that whatever you 00:17:32.730 --> 00:17:38.040 do is okay, you have to learn to be much more circumspect and it takes a while. 00:17:38.040 --> 00:17:42.030 That's part of the process of growing up, becoming a mature human being. 00:17:42.510 --> 00:17:44.820 Matt Abrahams: So learning to question and learning to be empathetic earlier. 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:48.004 Jonathan, who's a communicator that you admire and why? 00:17:48.705 --> 00:17:51.405 Jonathan Berek: Phil Pizzo, he's probably one of the best 00:17:51.405 --> 00:17:53.475 communicators I've ever encountered. 00:17:53.715 --> 00:17:58.485 His ability to speak extemporaneously is quite extraordinary. 00:17:58.815 --> 00:18:02.055 Virtually every time he gets up in front of an audience, 00:18:02.055 --> 00:18:04.005 afterwards, people, oh my goodness. 00:18:04.095 --> 00:18:05.025 That's incredible. 00:18:05.355 --> 00:18:08.505 Matt Abrahams: Phil, what are the first three ingredients that go into 00:18:08.505 --> 00:18:10.995 a successful communication recipe? 00:18:11.655 --> 00:18:15.645 Phil Polakoff: Being invited to participate, reflecting and stepping 00:18:15.645 --> 00:18:17.565 back, and pause for a moment. 00:18:18.120 --> 00:18:21.180 And three, to make it a communication process. 00:18:21.540 --> 00:18:22.470 The three I's. 00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:27.990 Interactive, interconnected, and interdependent, and that it's 00:18:27.990 --> 00:18:32.040 the start, not the finish, of a dynamic, meaningful interaction. 00:18:32.520 --> 00:18:35.250 Matt Abrahams: All three of those ingredients, although you slipped in 00:18:35.250 --> 00:18:37.440 five there, really, are really important. 00:18:37.710 --> 00:18:40.800 The one I wanna highlight for everyone is the reflective piece. 00:18:40.950 --> 00:18:42.540 Taking a pause, taking a beat. 00:18:42.630 --> 00:18:44.520 A lot of us in our communication rush through it. 00:18:45.149 --> 00:18:47.430 I'm glad we did not have to rush through today. 00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:52.020 And to your point, this is just the start of hopefully a deeper 00:18:52.020 --> 00:18:54.780 conversation among the three of us, but also everybody listening 00:18:54.780 --> 00:18:56.639 to take away the advice from you. 00:18:57.060 --> 00:18:58.470 Find mentors and guides. 00:18:58.560 --> 00:19:00.629 Think about how you tell stories and connect. 00:19:00.629 --> 00:19:01.500 Make them concise. 00:19:01.500 --> 00:19:02.430 Make them empathetic. 00:19:02.790 --> 00:19:03.540 Gentlemen, thank you. 00:19:03.540 --> 00:19:04.440 This was a true pleasure. 00:19:04.445 --> 00:19:05.909 I'm glad we finally made it happen. 00:19:05.935 --> 00:19:06.365 Thank you. 00:19:06.365 --> 00:19:06.510 Phil Polakoff: Thank you. 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:11.250 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:19:11.250 --> 00:19:13.230 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:19:13.635 --> 00:19:18.225 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:19:18.495 --> 00:19:19.995 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:19:20.084 --> 00:19:22.304 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:19:22.574 --> 00:19:25.665 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:19:25.725 --> 00:19:27.764 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:19:27.915 --> 00:19:29.955 Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. 00:19:30.195 --> 00:19:34.274 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:19:34.274 --> 00:19:36.314 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:19:36.645 --> 00:19:40.155 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:19:40.275 --> 00:19:46.375 AMAs, Ask Matt Anything, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.