WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:25.802 --> 00:00:27.802 Anke: Hello and welcome, Dr. 00:00:27.932 --> 00:00:29.272 Laura Donaldson. 00:00:29.332 --> 00:00:31.912 I'm super excited to have you with me. 00:00:33.932 --> 00:00:41.662 Laura: I'm delighted to be here and, um, you know, I love any opportunity 00:00:41.662 --> 00:00:44.932 to talk about becoming trauma informed. 00:00:45.752 --> 00:00:53.992 and what trauma is and, um, you know, I think you've had such great podcasts, 00:00:54.032 --> 00:00:56.912 Anke, so I'm, I'm thrilled to be here. 00:00:57.942 --> 00:01:02.532 Anke: And it's such a, I think it's such an important topic and the more I hear 00:01:02.542 --> 00:01:06.672 about it, the more I think, you know, when I got my first dog, it's like, oh 00:01:06.672 --> 00:01:11.632 boy, I wish I, I wish I'd known then, you know, what I'm, what I'm learning now. 00:01:11.632 --> 00:01:15.262 So, and, and if there's anybody, you know, anybody who's listening, 00:01:15.262 --> 00:01:17.782 it's like, That's for you, you know? 00:01:17.782 --> 00:01:22.542 So it's bringing that awareness and that knowledge that still 00:01:22.542 --> 00:01:24.932 doesn't seem to be the default. 00:01:24.932 --> 00:01:28.982 But before we dig in all the way, , all the way, let people 00:01:28.982 --> 00:01:32.642 know where you based and you know, what's your business with dogs? 00:01:33.412 --> 00:01:40.562 Laura: Well, I live in upstate New York and, uh, we're in the middle of 00:01:41.572 --> 00:01:46.662 snow, ice, below zero, wind chill. 00:01:46.992 --> 00:01:48.072 Um. 00:01:48.482 --> 00:01:50.312 I live on Lake Cuyuga. 00:01:50.312 --> 00:01:52.522 It's one of the Finger Lakes. 00:01:53.022 --> 00:01:57.772 We're about 250 miles upstate from New York City. 00:01:58.412 --> 00:02:02.112 And, uh, not that far from the Canadian border. 00:02:03.062 --> 00:02:11.257 Uh, and Ithaca is my city and, and I taught at Cornell for a number 00:02:11.257 --> 00:02:15.597 of years, Cornell University, and I live about five minutes from there. 00:02:16.447 --> 00:02:23.987 Uh, so I, I, uh, I've turned into a farmer in my retirement. 00:02:23.987 --> 00:02:26.347 I'm retired from Cornell now. 00:02:26.977 --> 00:02:29.767 Um, and I have sheep. 00:02:29.767 --> 00:02:31.537 I used to have chickens. 00:02:32.267 --> 00:02:33.847 Of course, I have dogs. 00:02:33.847 --> 00:02:35.317 I'm down to two. 00:02:35.647 --> 00:02:42.757 I've lived with as many as six in our little tiny 1829 farm. 00:02:44.777 --> 00:02:49.577 And my African gray parrot, Obi, who most people hear, because he loves 00:02:49.577 --> 00:02:52.157 to chime in anytime I'm online. 00:02:53.087 --> 00:02:58.462 So if you hear whistling or Somebody calling out Laura, that's him. 00:02:58.822 --> 00:03:01.312 Anke: Oh, that is funny, but he doesn't swear, does he? 00:03:01.872 --> 00:03:03.202 Laura: No, he doesn't swear. 00:03:03.202 --> 00:03:03.957 It 00:03:03.957 --> 00:03:09.612 Anke: just makes me laugh because there is this, um, I saw like, in, well, in 00:03:09.612 --> 00:03:13.472 a YouTube video, there's apparently, there's a bunch of, like, five or six 00:03:13.502 --> 00:03:15.652 African parrots in the British Zoo. 00:03:16.232 --> 00:03:19.877 And they swear like truck drivers and they will insult the 00:03:19.877 --> 00:03:20.702 visitors 00:03:20.702 --> 00:03:21.582 Laura: and stop so they're pushing them forward. 00:03:21.582 --> 00:03:24.252 And they're the most popular attraction. 00:03:24.962 --> 00:03:29.362 People are flocking to come see them and be sworn at by the parents. 00:03:31.632 --> 00:03:36.452 Anke: Somebody in the Facebook group, you know, somebody says, Oh, well, 00:03:36.642 --> 00:03:42.392 you know, I'm surprised that You know, that positive reinforcement training 00:03:42.392 --> 00:03:44.252 should really work there to teach them. 00:03:44.252 --> 00:03:47.688 I go, I think they're getting plenty of positive 00:03:47.688 --> 00:03:48.299 Laura: reinforcement. 00:03:48.299 --> 00:03:51.358 They are, yes, yes, yes. 00:03:51.358 --> 00:03:56.253 I love parrots, but they're not for everybody. 00:03:56.253 --> 00:03:56.864 Let 00:03:56.864 --> 00:03:58.700 Anke: me just say. 00:03:58.700 --> 00:04:01.147 So now let's unpack. 00:04:02.117 --> 00:04:05.797 What do you mean when you say trauma aware in the context of dogs? 00:04:05.797 --> 00:04:11.787 So, you know, how can I become trauma aware from with my dog for my dog? 00:04:12.377 --> 00:04:15.917 Laura: Well by listening to podcasts like this, that's one. 00:04:18.237 --> 00:04:26.917 But you know, so I want to maybe back up a step and I love this quote from 00:04:27.852 --> 00:04:34.902 By Gabor Maté, who's one of my favorite thinkers, The Myth of Normal, um, if you 00:04:34.912 --> 00:04:37.702 want to have something to read by him. 00:04:38.242 --> 00:04:45.972 But, um, he says, trauma is a foundational layer of experience in modern life. 00:04:46.882 --> 00:04:52.297 But, It's one that's largely ignored or misapprehended. 00:04:53.367 --> 00:05:01.077 Meaning, a lot of times we see it, but we think it's something else. 00:05:01.587 --> 00:05:07.462 Um, I think There's two ways that can come out. 00:05:08.022 --> 00:05:13.212 If you have a child, for example, who's struggling with trauma, that 00:05:13.212 --> 00:05:19.162 may come out as aggressive behavior in a elementary school class. 00:05:19.632 --> 00:05:25.642 So if you get called, if your kid is hitting other people in the lunch 00:05:25.742 --> 00:05:32.752 line, um, that's liable to be slapped with one of two things, either a 00:05:32.752 --> 00:05:36.572 toxic label, you know, he's just. 00:05:37.172 --> 00:05:46.872 bad, or she is just bad, naughty, um, unlovable, or it's clinically 00:05:46.872 --> 00:05:50.022 diagnosed as oppositional disorder. 00:05:50.922 --> 00:05:55.772 Uh, and there may be some of that in there, but what is missing 00:05:56.622 --> 00:06:02.482 is the even more fundamental underlying layer of trauma, because 00:06:02.482 --> 00:06:06.272 aggression is a very common response. 00:06:06.992 --> 00:06:10.112 to trauma, not just in humans, but dogs. 00:06:11.272 --> 00:06:12.062 That makes a lot of 00:06:12.062 --> 00:06:12.672 Anke: sense. 00:06:13.632 --> 00:06:17.622 So that means if somebody comes to you with an aggressive dog, 00:06:18.652 --> 00:06:23.002 your first direction, the first direction you look in is like, okay, 00:06:23.002 --> 00:06:24.362 what's the underlying trauma here? 00:06:24.882 --> 00:06:25.352 Laura: Yes. 00:06:25.392 --> 00:06:25.892 Anke: That correct? 00:06:26.312 --> 00:06:27.852 Laura: Yes, absolutely. 00:06:28.452 --> 00:06:34.302 Um, because I do think the history is important and what you'll often 00:06:34.312 --> 00:06:41.097 find out is, um, you know, and, and people don't connect these dots, right? 00:06:41.447 --> 00:06:47.507 Well, let's see, six months ago, my dog was attacked by an off leash dog 00:06:48.167 --> 00:06:54.877 when we were just walking down the sidewalk, or, um, my dog was really 00:06:54.907 --> 00:07:04.177 terrified by a skateboarder, or, um, you know, there's what I call microtrauma. 00:07:04.577 --> 00:07:10.537 In the home, maybe you have young kids who are violating the dog's spatial 00:07:10.547 --> 00:07:17.267 boundaries on a daily basis, pulling their ears, yelling, moving fast, 00:07:17.267 --> 00:07:25.557 and for many dogs that, that is very hard to deal with and threatening. 00:07:26.207 --> 00:07:33.757 Um, and then I say, and then they, they remarked on how the dog's behavior kind 00:07:33.757 --> 00:07:36.877 of deteriorated over the last six months. 00:07:37.447 --> 00:07:42.967 And I connect the dots and they go, Oh, um. 00:07:43.802 --> 00:07:48.812 It helps them to understand their dog's behavior. 00:07:49.112 --> 00:07:49.512 Anke: Yeah. 00:07:49.662 --> 00:07:55.902 Laura: Uh, that, that actually, I think, I've never met a dog struggling with 00:07:56.472 --> 00:08:04.752 aggression who didn't have some kind of trauma in their profile or background. 00:08:04.762 --> 00:08:06.702 And that can be veterinary. 00:08:06.702 --> 00:08:11.932 It can be a young puppy who has a series of surgeries and injuries. 00:08:12.552 --> 00:08:15.472 And for a lot of their puppyhood, they're confined. 00:08:16.357 --> 00:08:18.187 That can be very traumatic. 00:08:20.067 --> 00:08:24.557 Anke: That makes a lot of sense because, uh, literally like in last week's news 00:08:24.567 --> 00:08:30.207 that I wrote about little, little Leo, he got bitten when he was 11 months old 00:08:30.277 --> 00:08:32.387 and it literally destroyed his world. 00:08:32.837 --> 00:08:33.057 Yeah. 00:08:33.467 --> 00:08:38.147 It, well not, it didn't destroy his world, it destroyed his trust in the world. 00:08:38.467 --> 00:08:44.357 Yeah, you know, and like he lit in he was this, you know, I'm cute and you know 00:08:44.357 --> 00:08:48.317 it like this is how he went through the world and then this dog came along and 00:08:48.627 --> 00:08:54.917 just went for him and he wasn't really the vet said oh he's ready for Hollywood 00:08:54.957 --> 00:09:00.987 what an actor you know because he was hysterical and um and the vet says oh yeah 00:09:00.987 --> 00:09:05.427 he just had this little like if that dog he really had wanted to he wouldn't be a 00:09:05.427 --> 00:09:12.492 kind of thing right so like physically He didn't have much of an injury, but the, 00:09:12.502 --> 00:09:16.112 the, the shock of it all, you know, yeah. 00:09:16.172 --> 00:09:18.352 And then he had his cone, which he loved. 00:09:18.582 --> 00:09:21.202 And I always got the sense like, Oh, he feels safe with that thing. 00:09:21.482 --> 00:09:21.692 Right. 00:09:22.132 --> 00:09:28.112 And he started being reactive against other dogs afterwards, you know, and 00:09:28.112 --> 00:09:34.957 funny enough, funny enough, uh, male dogs, Big male dogs in confined spaces. 00:09:35.017 --> 00:09:36.737 He was fine on the beach, right? 00:09:36.737 --> 00:09:41.137 So you could really, it was easy, but that's, the thing is, it's easy 00:09:41.167 --> 00:09:45.017 to trace that back because it was literally instant, the shock at 00:09:45.017 --> 00:09:48.807 the vet where he was obviously also frightened, you know, because they said, 00:09:48.847 --> 00:09:50.547 Oh, well, no, we had to sedate him. 00:09:50.557 --> 00:09:52.477 We couldn't even like examine him. 00:09:52.797 --> 00:09:55.437 So it's really clear. 00:09:55.787 --> 00:09:58.572 Now, what are some. 00:10:00.172 --> 00:10:04.622 Things that can traumatize a dog that may not be as obvious to see. 00:10:05.612 --> 00:10:08.682 Laura: Well, I think there, there are many. 00:10:08.702 --> 00:10:15.272 I talk about, um, you know, I've written this series of articles on canine trauma 00:10:15.702 --> 00:10:22.102 for Happy Healthy Dog, uh, and we can post the links to some of them because 00:10:22.772 --> 00:10:29.382 the very first one was on, uh, was called, Is Your Dog Experiencing Microtrauma? 00:10:31.132 --> 00:10:31.612 Right? 00:10:31.642 --> 00:10:35.252 And microtrauma is often hidden in plain sight. 00:10:36.392 --> 00:10:44.352 It's daily, it's not like, uh, the macro trauma of being attacked by an off leash 00:10:44.352 --> 00:10:51.172 dog, or being in an accident, or, uh, being in a natural disaster like a fire. 00:10:52.002 --> 00:10:52.562 Right? 00:10:53.052 --> 00:10:58.882 This is, um, it often has to do with the interaction between 00:10:58.882 --> 00:11:00.432 dogs and young children. 00:11:01.432 --> 00:11:10.862 Um, it can be, um, the presence of other dogs in the building, in the neighborhood. 00:11:10.862 --> 00:11:15.292 Let's say you live in a more urban area and you have to take 00:11:15.292 --> 00:11:17.712 an elevator to go anywhere. 00:11:18.762 --> 00:11:29.162 Elevators can be quite Scary for dogs and, um, I think it's not just the confinement, 00:11:29.212 --> 00:11:32.672 it's the noises, it's the movement. 00:11:33.317 --> 00:11:35.617 And it's also, there's no escape route. 00:11:35.617 --> 00:11:41.947 So if you're in there with another dog who doesn't have good intentions, I've worked 00:11:41.987 --> 00:11:48.877 with dogs who were attacked in an elevator and, um, that was quite traumatizing, 00:11:48.887 --> 00:11:56.557 but microtrauma, it could be even noises, hidden noises that we can't hear. 00:11:57.772 --> 00:12:00.282 That your refrigerator is giving out. 00:12:00.342 --> 00:12:11.217 Um, Eileen Anderson has some wonderful, um, articles on Sonic, the sonic 00:12:11.247 --> 00:12:15.967 overload that's often happening to our dogs that we can't hear. 00:12:17.117 --> 00:12:23.017 Um, so it can, it can just be anything because here's the bottom line. 00:12:24.667 --> 00:12:29.947 Trauma is our response to an experience. 00:12:29.987 --> 00:12:36.027 It has, it's not in the inherent qualities of the experience itself. 00:12:38.177 --> 00:12:45.457 So, um, one dog could be attacked in an elevator and be, you know, 00:12:45.617 --> 00:12:50.497 maybe be stressed out and need some recovery time, but then they'd be 00:12:50.497 --> 00:12:54.027 fine to go in the elevator, no issues. 00:12:55.547 --> 00:13:03.577 Another dog would be attacked and, and you would have to, you know, put a, uh, 00:13:03.637 --> 00:13:06.347 a new set of stairs outside your window. 00:13:06.357 --> 00:13:09.517 That's how bad the resistance would be. 00:13:09.517 --> 00:13:09.987 But it's like 00:13:09.987 --> 00:13:11.287 Anke: with people, it's the same. 00:13:11.647 --> 00:13:11.857 Laura: Yeah. 00:13:12.337 --> 00:13:13.622 You know some people Exactly. 00:13:14.102 --> 00:13:17.587 Anke: I like . You know how they always say, oh, the most stressful, 00:13:17.587 --> 00:13:18.697 like the 10 most stressful. 00:13:18.877 --> 00:13:22.687 Actually, during, when I did coach training, we did an exercise and 00:13:22.687 --> 00:13:26.767 we were like put in a group with a list of like horrific stuff, right? 00:13:27.007 --> 00:13:29.347 And we were supposed to come to an agreement. 00:13:29.557 --> 00:13:31.147 What's the order of horrific? 00:13:31.582 --> 00:13:38.592 And there was being in prison, there was being like, I don't know, 00:13:38.732 --> 00:13:43.112 broke, like being paralyzed, like all these different things, right? 00:13:43.482 --> 00:13:48.292 And as you can imagine, it was impossible to find an order because 00:13:48.292 --> 00:13:52.452 it wasn't like, oh, moving house is horrible, it's super stressful. 00:13:52.452 --> 00:13:56.092 I'm like, Moving house, bit of a pain in the butt, but not stressful, right? 00:13:56.422 --> 00:13:58.722 So other people freak out over it, right? 00:13:58.722 --> 00:14:03.562 So another one, I thought, Oh my God, the, I did the shame of going into prison. 00:14:03.782 --> 00:14:06.172 Somebody else goes, Oh yeah, no, I've been in prison. 00:14:06.182 --> 00:14:06.832 Not that bad. 00:14:07.852 --> 00:14:11.212 It's like, it's literally, it's not the thing itself, you know? 00:14:11.282 --> 00:14:11.552 Yes. 00:14:12.257 --> 00:14:18.527 Laura: It's not the experience itself, it's our response to it, and it usually 00:14:18.527 --> 00:14:22.397 is our long term response to it. 00:14:22.437 --> 00:14:28.987 Uh, I use an expansive definition of trauma, uh, from Judith Herrmann, 00:14:28.987 --> 00:14:34.947 who's again one of my favorite trauma thinkers, and it's anything that 00:14:34.977 --> 00:14:37.427 overwhelms our capacity to cope. 00:14:38.067 --> 00:14:41.097 So this is not stress, right? 00:14:41.447 --> 00:14:43.777 And it's not even severe stress. 00:14:44.557 --> 00:14:53.257 This is something that actually causes us and our bodies to activate adaptive 00:14:53.257 --> 00:15:01.397 survival strategies that we may still be using 20 years later, right? 00:15:01.407 --> 00:15:03.427 And it's no different in dogs. 00:15:03.437 --> 00:15:07.727 This can expand over a period of years. 00:15:08.972 --> 00:15:16.322 Um, and so that, in that sense, dogs and humans process trauma and respond 00:15:16.322 --> 00:15:20.982 to trauma in very closely parallel ways. 00:15:22.162 --> 00:15:26.302 Anke: So apart from aggression, you know, where it becomes like 00:15:26.302 --> 00:15:28.122 a problem for the owner, right? 00:15:28.862 --> 00:15:33.842 So what other ways can, especially these micro traumas, like in other, 00:15:33.872 --> 00:15:37.912 in what other ways can they show up in a dog that we might often overlook? 00:15:38.342 --> 00:15:43.012 Laura: There are many, and, and again, it parallels what happens 00:15:43.362 --> 00:15:45.672 in humans, especially children. 00:15:46.302 --> 00:15:51.912 Um, but you, you can develop avoidance behavior. 00:15:51.922 --> 00:15:53.722 That's a big strategy. 00:15:53.902 --> 00:15:57.592 That's an adaptive survival mechanism. 00:15:57.622 --> 00:16:03.422 And I often talk about, this has been one of my favorite themes over a period 00:16:03.422 --> 00:16:05.952 of years, there's no stubborn dogs. 00:16:06.687 --> 00:16:08.697 There's no willful dogs. 00:16:08.727 --> 00:16:13.407 They're confused, scared, traumatized dogs. 00:16:13.447 --> 00:16:22.037 And what happens is, let's say you want, you take your dog out for a walk, right? 00:16:22.067 --> 00:16:24.147 And something really scares her. 00:16:24.867 --> 00:16:27.937 Maybe you have a dog that runs down to fence fight. 00:16:29.022 --> 00:16:33.822 three houses down the road or something worse. 00:16:33.822 --> 00:16:35.322 I, it could be anything. 00:16:35.982 --> 00:16:41.052 Um, and the next day you want to go for a walk and she says, no, thank you. 00:16:42.422 --> 00:16:45.152 You know, she's balking at the front door. 00:16:45.152 --> 00:16:46.832 I'm not going out. 00:16:47.572 --> 00:16:55.032 So one thing I want to stress is that this is a communication. 00:16:55.062 --> 00:16:57.232 It is not willfulness. 00:16:57.892 --> 00:17:00.312 It's not being stubborn. 00:17:00.872 --> 00:17:08.732 Um, and so we need to listen to our dogs, take their communication seriously. 00:17:08.732 --> 00:17:11.172 That is a communication of stress. 00:17:12.022 --> 00:17:16.122 Or dogs who just plop down on the sidewalk in the middle of a walk. 00:17:17.507 --> 00:17:18.997 Why are they doing that? 00:17:19.157 --> 00:17:22.457 That is the first question to ask. 00:17:22.557 --> 00:17:23.747 Are you in pain? 00:17:24.467 --> 00:17:25.697 Are you scared? 00:17:26.357 --> 00:17:32.557 Usually it's because outside has become too dangerous for them. 00:17:32.717 --> 00:17:45.702 And so, you know, one of my huge themes, and if you do any of my trauma Webinars 00:17:45.702 --> 00:17:53.542 and courses, you'll hear me talk about this all the time, is we have to start 00:17:53.572 --> 00:18:02.392 with a foundation always, always, always of deep safety, deep safety. 00:18:02.392 --> 00:18:05.282 Why does a dog not want to go out of the house? 00:18:05.312 --> 00:18:07.312 Because she's not feeling safe. 00:18:09.672 --> 00:18:18.142 And so, our, the usual behaviorist response, and I would say, you know, 00:18:18.152 --> 00:18:24.222 some people have done things like take a water bottle and spray the 00:18:24.222 --> 00:18:26.922 dog in the face with water, right? 00:18:27.342 --> 00:18:30.692 Or you get a shock collar and you zap them. 00:18:30.712 --> 00:18:34.212 I mean, those are just Don't even, 00:18:35.142 --> 00:18:35.412 let's 00:18:35.412 --> 00:18:37.002 Laura: not even go down that road. 00:18:37.012 --> 00:18:38.352 That's very cruel. 00:18:38.772 --> 00:18:43.682 But, I think even doing something like, okay, you don't 00:18:43.682 --> 00:18:45.072 want to go out of the house. 00:18:45.132 --> 00:18:51.732 I'm, I'm gonna get your favorite treat, and I'm gonna lure you out, 00:18:51.732 --> 00:18:58.777 and I'm gonna keep Is that really, that is I would say that's putting way 00:18:58.777 --> 00:19:03.887 too much pressure on the dog before we even understand what's going on. 00:19:04.717 --> 00:19:06.827 And it breaks trust as well. 00:19:07.147 --> 00:19:08.137 Breaks trust, yes. 00:19:08.137 --> 00:19:09.162 Yeah. 00:19:09.162 --> 00:19:10.187 Yeah. 00:19:10.367 --> 00:19:20.172 Because listening to and hearing our dogs for who they really are is one of 00:19:20.172 --> 00:19:26.432 the most healing things we can do and that's where we always have to start. 00:19:26.432 --> 00:19:27.712 So 00:19:28.772 --> 00:19:29.922 Anke: what would you suggest? 00:19:29.922 --> 00:19:32.042 Let's just play out that scenario. 00:19:32.082 --> 00:19:39.007 So Maybe, I don't know, you know, maybe somebody hasn't even, the 00:19:39.007 --> 00:19:43.517 dog got scared, but you know, like, I guess, you know, I'm living in 00:19:43.517 --> 00:19:44.967 Spain, so you see a lot of stuff. 00:19:47.537 --> 00:19:50.937 People might be chatting, so the owners might not have even 00:19:50.957 --> 00:19:53.157 seen what happened, right? 00:19:53.157 --> 00:19:53.577 Exactly. 00:19:53.617 --> 00:19:57.077 And so now the dogs, they're like, I'm not going out. 00:19:57.632 --> 00:19:57.912 Right. 00:19:57.912 --> 00:20:00.472 So we're not forcing him. 00:20:00.472 --> 00:20:04.822 I've seen a dog trainer, local dog trainer, adopt a Mali 00:20:04.832 --> 00:20:06.142 who was like super scared. 00:20:06.172 --> 00:20:08.972 And then he goes, look, look, I'll fix them. 00:20:09.292 --> 00:20:11.262 And he totally flooded him. 00:20:11.922 --> 00:20:13.322 You know, he was scared of people. 00:20:13.322 --> 00:20:18.992 He took him into some like manifestation with like people to, the dog literally 00:20:19.002 --> 00:20:21.302 froze, the dog would not move at all. 00:20:21.302 --> 00:20:23.052 And he goes, look how obedient he is. 00:20:23.052 --> 00:20:23.312 Right. 00:20:23.602 --> 00:20:26.222 Cruel to the nth degree to my, in my books. 00:20:26.602 --> 00:20:31.642 But, um, So we also don't want to manipulate them and like lure them to 00:20:31.652 --> 00:20:33.652 do something they don't want to do. 00:20:35.062 --> 00:20:41.172 Okay, what do I do to support my dog and to, to help them, you know, get over this? 00:20:41.882 --> 00:20:46.742 Laura: Let me just say, obedience has nothing to do with healing from trauma. 00:20:47.872 --> 00:20:55.572 Suppression, in fact, I, I have a, I did a whole Facebook post on this and 00:20:55.572 --> 00:20:57.802 I talk about it in all my courses. 00:20:57.812 --> 00:20:59.592 Suppression of behavior. 00:21:00.097 --> 00:21:02.767 does not equal healing from trauma. 00:21:03.597 --> 00:21:09.787 Um, compliance is not, uh, cooperation. 00:21:10.917 --> 00:21:11.577 Anke: I love that. 00:21:11.857 --> 00:21:13.257 Ooh, I love that. 00:21:13.387 --> 00:21:19.692 Laura: Yeah, and, and it doesn't mean that our dog really has a good 00:21:20.062 --> 00:21:26.302 state of emotional well being, even if they are sitting or lying down in 00:21:26.302 --> 00:21:29.352 the presence of concerning triggers. 00:21:29.382 --> 00:21:35.102 And I'm always concerned with the emotional well being first and foremost. 00:21:35.102 --> 00:21:42.942 So I, I would do, so let me just give you an example, and this is one Um, 00:21:43.152 --> 00:21:50.682 if people are interested, the next place to go for, you know, a deeper 00:21:50.682 --> 00:21:57.432 dive would be my webinar called, Why Becoming Trauma Informed Will 00:21:57.432 --> 00:21:59.532 Change Everything You Do With Dogs. 00:21:59.532 --> 00:22:00.902 It's on Thinkific. 00:22:01.242 --> 00:22:04.302 We can put the link in, it's almost free. 00:22:04.832 --> 00:22:08.672 Um, and so one of the examples I used. 00:22:09.272 --> 00:22:18.422 was a nine month old lab mix who, uh, refused to be or was very 00:22:18.432 --> 00:22:21.042 difficult to, to house train. 00:22:21.422 --> 00:22:25.202 Right at nine months, he was still pooping inside the house. 00:22:26.952 --> 00:22:31.792 And, and he had a lot of other severe fear, anxiety, stress. 00:22:32.472 --> 00:22:40.602 issues and, and what the dog's human had not done was connect the dots, right? 00:22:40.632 --> 00:22:45.652 Why at nine months was he still not house trained? 00:22:45.682 --> 00:22:52.322 Because it definitely was not a physical like bladder GI issue. 00:22:52.372 --> 00:22:54.692 No, it was a trauma issue. 00:22:55.652 --> 00:22:59.632 For this dog, going outside was too dangerous. 00:23:00.702 --> 00:23:09.367 And so he might go out and pee and then run back in, but pooping, uh, requires 00:23:09.377 --> 00:23:14.947 the dog to make themselves a lot more vulnerable because it takes longer. 00:23:14.957 --> 00:23:22.567 They have to either squat or change positions, right? 00:23:22.587 --> 00:23:31.377 And so what we actually did was we worked on the deep safety aspect of it and 00:23:31.377 --> 00:23:39.477 we were doing this for his whole life with this family, but particularly for 00:23:39.477 --> 00:23:46.597 house training, um, we had to find a way to help him feel safe going outside. 00:23:46.597 --> 00:23:54.327 So we put a tent up right off the porch, right, that had sides and an 00:23:54.337 --> 00:24:00.532 entrance so he could, you know, go out on the grass, but he was protected. 00:24:01.232 --> 00:24:08.432 Um, he actually ended up choosing his own little safe haven outside, 00:24:08.442 --> 00:24:14.942 but erecting that tent, that safe space, was a way to acknowledge, 00:24:14.972 --> 00:24:17.332 okay, you're not just being difficult. 00:24:18.652 --> 00:24:20.552 You're not just being naughty. 00:24:20.562 --> 00:24:21.532 You're not just untrainable. 00:24:21.532 --> 00:24:33.867 This is Really a, a deep seated, um, somatic, as well as cognitive issue, 00:24:33.887 --> 00:24:40.687 and, uh, that was the beginning of him actually being able to go outside. 00:24:41.517 --> 00:24:43.227 Uh, with no issue. 00:24:44.997 --> 00:24:45.327 Um, 00:24:45.327 --> 00:24:48.687 Anke: that makes so much sense though, because I'm just like thinking, 00:24:48.957 --> 00:24:55.697 if you imagine, you know, if I'm imagining like I , I don't know. 00:24:55.727 --> 00:24:59.627 You know, when I lived in Grenada, there was a time when, you know, you couldn't 00:24:59.627 --> 00:25:03.497 hardly go outta the house without somebody kind of trying to grab your back, right? 00:25:03.502 --> 00:25:03.632 Yeah. 00:25:03.632 --> 00:25:05.687 And so you get kind of scared, you know? 00:25:05.687 --> 00:25:09.167 So when you're sort of scared to go out at night, you know, whatever. 00:25:09.257 --> 00:25:09.467 Yeah. 00:25:10.192 --> 00:25:14.242 And so I do remember that sensation, right? 00:25:14.242 --> 00:25:17.802 When you kind of don't feel safe and you feel vulnerable and, and 00:25:17.802 --> 00:25:22.492 so just the thought of somebody then treating me as if I'm stubborn 00:25:23.162 --> 00:25:23.532 or as 00:25:23.552 --> 00:25:28.372 Anke: if I just don't want to do the thing or if I'm just being difficult, 00:25:28.742 --> 00:25:32.282 you know, so it's not just that you deal with the thing, then you're on top of 00:25:32.282 --> 00:25:40.597 it deal with that being misunderstood and judged Unfairly, basically. 00:25:40.867 --> 00:25:44.977 So that's pretty much what we're doing to dogs if we don't start to 00:25:44.977 --> 00:25:46.697 recognize what's actually going on. 00:25:47.872 --> 00:25:54.982 Laura: Yes, and we know trauma lives in the body, right? 00:25:54.992 --> 00:25:58.482 First, foremost, most deeply, it's somatic. 00:25:59.302 --> 00:26:04.792 The body keeps the score, which is the name of a very famous book by 00:26:04.822 --> 00:26:11.032 Bessel van der Kolk, a trauma, uh, a leader in the world of trauma. 00:26:11.562 --> 00:26:22.732 Um, and so I, you know, becoming trauma informed, Um, I, I just think I, in the, 00:26:22.752 --> 00:26:31.522 in this, in the article I did for Happy Healthy Dog, um, I talk about five basic 00:26:31.522 --> 00:26:34.592 realities of being trauma informed. 00:26:34.602 --> 00:26:37.622 First and always is safety. 00:26:38.822 --> 00:26:44.552 Ensuring that feeling, that visceral sense of deep safety. 00:26:46.012 --> 00:26:53.572 So, if my dog is balking, going out the front door on a walk, I have to assume 00:26:54.492 --> 00:27:01.662 she's doing the best she can with the strategies that are available to her, 00:27:01.672 --> 00:27:04.122 one of which is avoidance behavior. 00:27:05.712 --> 00:27:12.062 And she is actually able to express some agency, no, I don't want to go out there, 00:27:12.062 --> 00:27:16.202 I, It's too scary for me right now. 00:27:17.132 --> 00:27:23.812 Um, so instead of doing the way too often monologue, I talk, you 00:27:23.822 --> 00:27:28.882 listen, we're going on a walk by God, I don't care what you feel. 00:27:29.932 --> 00:27:34.012 I would say you need to leave your dog at home and take the walk on your own. 00:27:34.457 --> 00:27:39.157 You know, uh, but, but safety first. 00:27:39.157 --> 00:27:41.877 What can I do to help you feel safe? 00:27:43.337 --> 00:27:47.587 And maybe that means we only have exercise in the backyard for a 00:27:47.587 --> 00:27:53.767 while until I can get a better sense of what is happening, right? 00:27:54.177 --> 00:28:01.047 Second is trustworthiness, which we've talked about, and that means not tricking 00:28:01.057 --> 00:28:04.057 my dog by laying a trail of treats. 00:28:04.982 --> 00:28:09.752 And saying for them, well, you're just mistaken, outside is safe. 00:28:10.202 --> 00:28:15.292 Well, no, maybe not for the dog, right? 00:28:15.732 --> 00:28:25.072 Um, prioritizing choice, because we know with trauma, agency is taken away. 00:28:27.462 --> 00:28:34.377 So, um, and not, and not just, by whatever happened to us. 00:28:34.377 --> 00:28:37.077 Like, I didn't ask for that dog to attack me. 00:28:37.107 --> 00:28:39.147 I didn't ask to be assaulted. 00:28:40.017 --> 00:28:48.007 Um, you know, the list goes on, but, but it, it, it's also, um, 00:28:50.347 --> 00:28:56.517 we can't heal according to other people's schedule. 00:28:56.917 --> 00:28:57.667 Agenda. 00:28:58.027 --> 00:28:58.437 Yeah. 00:28:58.567 --> 00:28:58.917 Yeah. 00:28:59.557 --> 00:29:01.907 Healing only comes from within. 00:29:03.302 --> 00:29:06.512 And, and that's what a lot of people lose sight of. 00:29:06.522 --> 00:29:10.902 By God, you're going to heal because I'm going to go, we have to go to 00:29:10.902 --> 00:29:12.982 our family vacation in a month. 00:29:13.662 --> 00:29:16.862 So whatever your issues are, you need to be over them. 00:29:16.862 --> 00:29:20.552 But I hear this a lot from clients, right? 00:29:21.372 --> 00:29:21.782 Yeah. 00:29:22.132 --> 00:29:26.082 Anke: And I guess it would be worth, worse with, with dogs, you know, you 00:29:26.092 --> 00:29:30.112 wouldn't say that to your child, you know, but it's almost like the dogs 00:29:30.122 --> 00:29:34.652 expected to fit into our life, you know, so who would go as like, Oh, 00:29:34.672 --> 00:29:37.952 we'll just reschedule the holiday. 00:29:38.022 --> 00:29:38.342 Right. 00:29:38.342 --> 00:29:38.622 Laura: Yeah. 00:29:39.152 --> 00:29:40.472 Yeah, yeah. 00:29:41.142 --> 00:29:44.742 Um, and then collaboration. 00:29:46.042 --> 00:29:48.692 This is a huge one, right? 00:29:48.712 --> 00:30:00.492 And, um, the way I define collaboration is, um, as interspecies cooperation. 00:30:01.962 --> 00:30:05.202 This is a mutual relationship. 00:30:05.232 --> 00:30:06.142 You're my partner. 00:30:08.062 --> 00:30:14.117 And with a partner, we We both have responsibilities. 00:30:14.117 --> 00:30:16.897 We both gain deep benefits. 00:30:17.287 --> 00:30:28.062 But, uh, the hallmark of a partnership is is, um, communication and me listening 00:30:28.062 --> 00:30:33.002 to you and changing what I do, right? 00:30:33.062 --> 00:30:36.622 I change what I do based on what I'm hearing from you. 00:30:40.202 --> 00:30:48.672 Um, and, and part of that is also taking a step back to trustworthiness, believing 00:30:48.682 --> 00:30:51.552 that our dogs are doing the best they can. 00:30:53.127 --> 00:30:58.287 with the adaptive survival strategies they have at their disposal. 00:30:58.317 --> 00:31:04.887 It doesn't mean we won't work with them to help them find more adaptive, 00:31:06.717 --> 00:31:10.347 more appropriate, uh, more functional. 00:31:12.887 --> 00:31:17.447 Um, but yeah, and then, and then, um, empowerment. 00:31:19.397 --> 00:31:22.687 And I used to hate that word, right? 00:31:22.717 --> 00:31:24.557 Because it, it can. 00:31:26.307 --> 00:31:28.587 It can be blaming the victim. 00:31:29.167 --> 00:31:34.847 If you're not empowered, then you must be doing something wrong, right? 00:31:34.867 --> 00:31:38.797 But for, but for dog, I've reclaimed it, right? 00:31:38.797 --> 00:31:43.227 And this is how I've redefined it through my work with dogs. 00:31:43.247 --> 00:31:49.947 And that's by helping dogs learn the coping skills, the coping 00:31:49.957 --> 00:31:52.677 strategies they need to heal. 00:31:54.322 --> 00:31:58.062 whatever they need, and I've got to take my clues from them. 00:31:59.222 --> 00:32:03.472 I can't come in and say, okay, here's the A, B, C, D, you need to heal. 00:32:04.952 --> 00:32:07.412 No, it's different for every dog. 00:32:07.432 --> 00:32:16.702 And then they have like a toolbox or a repertoire of independent coping 00:32:16.712 --> 00:32:22.152 skills, even things like grounding, deep breathing, trauma informed 00:32:22.162 --> 00:32:26.252 movement that they can use on their own. 00:32:26.952 --> 00:32:30.072 Independently, that's what I call empowerment. 00:32:32.322 --> 00:32:33.662 Anke: You know, knowing how to deal. 00:32:33.932 --> 00:32:36.902 And I think that, that not being 00:32:39.642 --> 00:32:43.982 kind of, not overlooked, but you know, like not being ignored and not 00:32:43.982 --> 00:32:47.012 being, oh yeah, you don't, you, you just be, I'm just like, like, this 00:32:47.022 --> 00:32:51.332 really sits with me when I'm thinking, okay, when I'm scared and somebody 00:32:51.332 --> 00:32:52.422 says, oh, just don't be an idiot. 00:32:53.152 --> 00:32:55.932 You know, hang on, we've got to go like just get over it. 00:32:55.962 --> 00:32:58.212 Like, you know, it's it's cruel. 00:32:58.232 --> 00:32:59.922 It's inconsiderate. 00:32:59.972 --> 00:33:02.442 It's unkind, you know, so 00:33:04.522 --> 00:33:08.742 it's just like you would not want to like you would certainly not trust that 00:33:08.742 --> 00:33:12.832 person because you you think like, well, they don't have my best interest at 00:33:12.832 --> 00:33:17.519 heart because they don't even stop long enough to understand what I'm feeling. 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:17.847 Exactly. 00:33:17.847 --> 00:33:20.072 And they don't even make an effort. 00:33:20.407 --> 00:33:20.667 Yeah. 00:33:21.197 --> 00:33:26.057 And so, and I'm thinking we, we really owe it to our dogs to look at them as, 00:33:27.197 --> 00:33:31.847 you know, yes, another species, but somebody who, who deserves enough respect 00:33:31.887 --> 00:33:36.417 to sort of think about, like, hang on, what, like, how does it feel for you? 00:33:36.757 --> 00:33:40.847 You know, what does this whole situation look like through your eyes and not what 00:33:40.847 --> 00:33:44.897 I'd like to have because, you know, I want to go to the barbecue on Saturday. 00:33:44.917 --> 00:33:45.237 Right. 00:33:45.437 --> 00:33:45.757 Laura: Yeah. 00:33:46.997 --> 00:33:52.347 And I love your example of, you know, it's the basic, just get over it. 00:33:55.037 --> 00:33:58.207 Life is easier for me if you get over it. 00:34:01.037 --> 00:34:03.897 Anke: I mean, the thing is, I mean, and that's why I just love that 00:34:03.897 --> 00:34:09.187 conversation because I do like, I have to admit, you know, like 00:34:09.257 --> 00:34:11.477 Leo got bitten like 20 years ago. 00:34:11.777 --> 00:34:13.287 You know, and I didn't know then what I know. 00:34:13.287 --> 00:34:14.227 He was my first dog. 00:34:14.237 --> 00:34:15.307 I didn't have a clue. 00:34:15.647 --> 00:34:20.107 And you know and I was living in a in a, in a house where we 00:34:20.867 --> 00:34:22.727 had to go out for him to pee. 00:34:22.737 --> 00:34:24.737 If I didn't want him to pee in the house, right. 00:34:25.127 --> 00:34:30.817 But I mean, to be honest, like after like, this whole situation and the 00:34:30.817 --> 00:34:35.012 whole shuffle and then he was to the vet and the vet goes, he's an 00:34:35.012 --> 00:34:37.262 actor, like he's ready for Hollywood. 00:34:37.272 --> 00:34:42.242 He just kind of like, he's a drama queen and I took him 00:34:42.252 --> 00:34:43.742 like now I'm like, Oh my God. 00:34:44.082 --> 00:34:48.152 Like makes me sort of 20 years later, makes me kind of like shrink back in 00:34:48.152 --> 00:34:52.072 embarrassment because the day, like, you know, after, when he sort of recovered, 00:34:52.152 --> 00:34:53.422 like, okay, let's go for a walk. 00:34:53.432 --> 00:34:54.482 Cause that's what I. 00:34:54.782 --> 00:34:58.382 For what I needed and that's what I thought like he needs to go out and 00:34:58.382 --> 00:35:02.092 pee, you know Everybody always tells you you need to go out for walks. 00:35:02.332 --> 00:35:02.752 Now. 00:35:02.752 --> 00:35:08.922 I'm thinking I would have left that dog inside, you know for You know 00:35:08.952 --> 00:35:13.602 enough time for him to just even process what happened, but it wasn't 00:35:13.602 --> 00:35:15.712 that I thought like oh Stop Leo. 00:35:15.712 --> 00:35:17.992 I don't give a I love that dog to bits. 00:35:18.002 --> 00:35:22.782 I just didn't know You know, it never even occurred to me that that You 00:35:25.192 --> 00:35:28.972 I mean, and he didn't sort of, sort of, not want to go, I didn't have 00:35:28.972 --> 00:35:31.722 to pull him out because he probably didn't know anything different 00:35:31.722 --> 00:35:35.362 either, but it's like, I'm now looking like, oh, that was probably not the 00:35:35.362 --> 00:35:40.492 best thing to do, you know, but I literally, it didn't even occur to me. 00:35:41.257 --> 00:35:47.187 that something else would be available or the much, much better way of rather than, 00:35:47.187 --> 00:35:49.167 okay, let's just go back to normal, right? 00:35:49.167 --> 00:35:53.747 And then deal with you getting kind of scared at other dogs. 00:35:54.687 --> 00:35:59.362 Laura: Well, and I think the example of the vet You know, you cannot 00:35:59.362 --> 00:36:03.632 assume that even our veterinary professionals are trauma informed. 00:36:03.632 --> 00:36:04.272 They're not. 00:36:05.022 --> 00:36:11.282 And I gave a webinar on exactly that topic to the National Group of 00:36:12.352 --> 00:36:14.822 Veterinary Behaviors from Switzerland. 00:36:15.572 --> 00:36:22.122 And I was thrilled to do that because it shows there's a growing interest 00:36:22.122 --> 00:36:27.317 in and recognition of the need for this in the veterinary community. 00:36:28.417 --> 00:36:36.057 because that response from your VAT, that that is equivalent to malpractice. 00:36:37.192 --> 00:36:43.712 It really is, um, and I, but I think it's one that a lot of people, 00:36:46.152 --> 00:36:54.022 it's not just that trauma is ignored as a foundational layer, so people 00:36:54.022 --> 00:37:00.022 don't even know about it, but it, you have to remember, it hasn't been 00:37:00.022 --> 00:37:04.642 that long that we've recognized dogs. 00:37:05.237 --> 00:37:17.377 as, um, sentient, emotional, cognitive beings, and of all the kind of 00:37:17.387 --> 00:37:23.857 higher, uh, mammal species, it's actually, we now know, because the 00:37:23.867 --> 00:37:30.317 research is ongoing and accumulating, dogs and humans have uncannily 00:37:30.317 --> 00:37:33.817 similar social and emotional brains. 00:37:34.217 --> 00:37:38.407 It doesn't mean dogs think like humans, because they don't use verbal. 00:37:38.957 --> 00:37:42.857 language, but they have sophisticated communication. 00:37:42.857 --> 00:37:49.677 They process experience and information from the environment in very similar ways. 00:37:50.017 --> 00:37:56.267 And because of that, they have very similar behavior issues. 00:37:57.297 --> 00:38:05.217 Um, and so that's why I start almost all my webinars with the dogs 00:38:05.217 --> 00:38:09.217 and humans are uncannily similar. 00:38:09.257 --> 00:38:15.107 And You, if you really took that seriously, you would never make 00:38:15.107 --> 00:38:20.317 a response by saying, Oh, they're just acting, or this is not 00:38:20.317 --> 00:38:22.617 important, or just get over it. 00:38:22.657 --> 00:38:24.017 That kind of thing. 00:38:24.917 --> 00:38:25.267 Anke: Yeah. 00:38:25.337 --> 00:38:29.037 I mean, it makes, you know, it makes so much sense to think, well, yeah, 00:38:29.037 --> 00:38:34.117 you, I mean, also like looking at it, it, it helps, you know, what's right. 00:38:34.757 --> 00:38:37.387 You know, because there's so much stuff that you wouldn't do or wouldn't 00:38:37.397 --> 00:38:41.897 say if you, if you thought like, okay, you know, if that was me, 00:38:42.297 --> 00:38:42.797 you know, 00:38:42.997 --> 00:38:46.127 Anke: frightened of something, would I appreciate somebody 00:38:46.127 --> 00:38:47.787 say, oh, don't be stubborn now? 00:38:47.787 --> 00:38:51.927 Well, no, you know, I probably wouldn't trust you again. 00:38:52.347 --> 00:38:52.727 Yeah. 00:38:52.867 --> 00:38:58.867 You know, if I know that I can't trust you to even bother to try and understand me. 00:39:00.037 --> 00:39:03.167 Laura: And I think that's a great rule of thumb, what you just, 00:39:04.107 --> 00:39:08.467 if I would, if I, how would I feel if someone did that to me? 00:39:08.922 --> 00:39:10.332 Don't do it to your dog. 00:39:12.762 --> 00:39:16.032 Anke: Well, that's a, that's a, that's a pretty cool ground rule, right? 00:39:16.032 --> 00:39:19.832 So I think, you know, if somebody stopped for long enough to even think 00:39:19.832 --> 00:39:25.032 that, you know, I think we'd get a lot, a lot better, better reaction. 00:39:25.342 --> 00:39:29.102 So if somebody wanted to really dig into that. 00:39:29.102 --> 00:39:33.332 So obviously we're going to pop the links to the um, articles 00:39:33.372 --> 00:39:35.572 and to the Thinkific course. 00:39:35.822 --> 00:39:38.852 What's, where's the best place to get in touch with you and 00:39:38.862 --> 00:39:40.472 find out more about your work? 00:39:41.592 --> 00:39:43.882 Laura: Well, you can go to my website. 00:39:43.882 --> 00:39:45.502 I have a contact form. 00:39:45.502 --> 00:39:47.992 It's fourpawsfourdirections. 00:39:48.002 --> 00:39:50.862 com really easily remembered. 00:39:51.287 --> 00:39:56.827 Um, I get to know most people through my courses and webinars, 00:39:56.827 --> 00:39:58.637 and they're all on Thinkific. 00:39:59.367 --> 00:40:03.977 The one I would recommend starting with is the Trauma Informed one. 00:40:04.772 --> 00:40:09.972 Um, Why Becoming Trauma Informed Will Change Everything You Do With Dogs. 00:40:10.762 --> 00:40:13.182 And then I have others. 00:40:13.182 --> 00:40:15.812 I have one on trauma and aggression. 00:40:16.702 --> 00:40:22.152 Um, I have a new one coming out in May called, um, 00:40:22.682 --> 00:40:26.072 Befriending Difficult Behaviors. 00:40:26.792 --> 00:40:32.042 And befriending is kind of my new rubric that incorporates a lot 00:40:32.042 --> 00:40:34.112 of the work I've done on trauma. 00:40:35.012 --> 00:40:43.082 Aggression, fear, anxiety, stress, the whole nine yards, um, and then you'll, 00:40:43.112 --> 00:40:49.002 you'll get, you know, you, people have to kind of make their own path, right? 00:40:49.052 --> 00:40:53.212 I'm a, anyone who knows me knows I'm blueprint aversive. 00:40:54.247 --> 00:40:59.817 Um, so, um, are you okay? 00:40:59.817 --> 00:41:04.527 I had a bit of a cough attack. 00:41:04.897 --> 00:41:07.467 Yes, I'll keep talking. 00:41:08.757 --> 00:41:18.027 Um, and, and so what, what I, would want people to take away are some underlying 00:41:18.857 --> 00:41:26.477 principles, guidelines, like the safety, trustworthiness, choice, collaboration, 00:41:26.477 --> 00:41:35.117 empowerment, deep safety, but how you actually build that into your life 00:41:35.147 --> 00:41:42.937 with your dogs or client dogs, that, that is yet to be discovered, right? 00:41:43.107 --> 00:41:50.107 Uh, so that's why a good working knowledge is so important, um, 00:41:50.117 --> 00:41:52.807 because there's no blueprint for this. 00:41:53.847 --> 00:41:54.417 Yeah, this is 00:41:54.477 --> 00:41:58.427 Anke: really kind of, it's kind of trailblazing in a sense, right? 00:41:58.857 --> 00:41:59.237 Laura: Yes. 00:41:59.367 --> 00:41:59.567 Yeah. 00:42:00.197 --> 00:42:00.307 Yeah. 00:42:01.317 --> 00:42:08.267 Uh, so we'll put, I'll put the link, I'll send Anke the links for the, the one 00:42:08.267 --> 00:42:10.887 course, and then you can go to my website. 00:42:11.557 --> 00:42:12.507 Email me. 00:42:12.507 --> 00:42:15.567 That contact form comes right to my inbox. 00:42:15.807 --> 00:42:20.927 You can always direct message me too if you're on Facebook. 00:42:20.947 --> 00:42:24.237 So all of those are ways to get in touch. 00:42:24.327 --> 00:42:24.777 Awesome. 00:42:24.817 --> 00:42:25.927 Anke: Well, thank you so much. 00:42:26.237 --> 00:42:30.162 Um, you already know that I'm going to be on your case in May to get you 00:42:30.162 --> 00:42:34.277 back when you have the new webinar. 00:42:34.277 --> 00:42:37.737 So definitely want you back for that as well to share about 00:42:37.737 --> 00:42:39.087 it and tell us all about it. 00:42:39.667 --> 00:42:40.057 Yeah. 00:42:40.247 --> 00:42:44.227 Thank you so much for today and I'll hope to speak to you again soon. 00:42:44.997 --> 00:42:46.497 Laura: Thank you for having me. 00:42:46.547 --> 00:42:47.567 Take good care. 00:42:49.352 --> 00:42:50.582 Thanks so much for listening. 00:42:51.102 --> 00:42:55.402 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:42:55.502 --> 00:42:57.282 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:42:58.072 --> 00:43:01.562 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:43:01.992 --> 00:43:07.562 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:43:07.662 --> 00:43:10.032 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:43:10.032 --> 00:43:13.762 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:43:14.182 --> 00:43:15.322 I'd love an introduction. 00:43:15.802 --> 00:43:17.632 Email me at Anke. 00:43:17.902 --> 00:43:22.137 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.