WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.299 Joe: There's reality, which is loving awareness, 00:00:02.379 --> 00:00:05.610 Sam: unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:07.360 Ali: And then there are the 10, 000 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:07.760 things. 00:00:22.819 --> 00:00:24.910 Sam: Hello, and welcome to the 10, 000 things. 00:00:24.940 --> 00:00:26.160 My name is Sam Ellis. 00:00:26.310 --> 00:00:26.630 I'm Joe Loh. 00:00:27.070 --> 00:00:28.240 Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados. 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:32.100 Joe: Today on the show, we're going to start with another quote from 00:00:32.850 --> 00:00:36.060 patron of the show, Alain de Botton. 00:00:36.060 --> 00:00:40.269 This one struck a chord with all of us, I think. 00:00:40.269 --> 00:00:41.408 Definitely me. 00:00:41.408 --> 00:00:41.978 Okay. 00:00:41.978 --> 00:00:42.548 Yeah. 00:00:42.548 --> 00:00:42.868 Maybe not 00:00:42.888 --> 00:00:43.208 Ali: Ali. 00:00:43.608 --> 00:00:46.538 Yeah, no, no, I, I, I read it last night again. 00:00:46.618 --> 00:00:47.428 I, yeah. 00:00:47.848 --> 00:00:49.528 Joe: Excellent, we're all very well prepared. 00:00:49.728 --> 00:00:51.328 Okay, Sam, do you want to read it out? 00:00:51.438 --> 00:00:53.928 Sam: Don't worry, I've got great, examples, but yeah. 00:00:54.128 --> 00:00:55.828 I'll try and do it, Alain de Botton justice. 00:00:57.758 --> 00:01:01.858 While envy has always been a target of fierce and moralistic criticism, 00:01:02.358 --> 00:01:05.328 it is also an indispensable feature of a decent life. 00:01:05.748 --> 00:01:10.588 It is a call to action that should be heeded, for it contains garbled messages 00:01:10.788 --> 00:01:14.938 sent by muddied but important parts of our personalities about what we should 00:01:14.948 --> 00:01:16.508 be doing with the rest of our lives. 00:01:17.008 --> 00:01:21.298 Listening to envy should help us to take painful yet necessary steps 00:01:21.988 --> 00:01:23.778 towards becoming who we really are. 00:01:24.168 --> 00:01:26.983 Instead of trying to repress our envy, We should therefore 00:01:26.983 --> 00:01:28.403 make every effort to study it. 00:01:28.843 --> 00:01:33.123 Each person we envy possesses some piece of the jigsaw puzzle depicting 00:01:33.173 --> 00:01:34.963 our possible future condition. 00:01:37.133 --> 00:01:37.793 Joe: Envy. 00:01:37.873 --> 00:01:38.473 Sam: Very true. 00:01:38.553 --> 00:01:38.893 Yes. 00:01:38.943 --> 00:01:39.513 In my experience. 00:01:41.098 --> 00:01:41.788 Joe: Healthy emotion. 00:01:41.788 --> 00:01:45.197 Sometimes I get this confused, but envy is quite different from jealousy. 00:01:45.198 --> 00:01:45.468 Yes. 00:01:45.538 --> 00:01:48.098 Sam: Jealousy is possessiveness of someone or something. 00:01:48.518 --> 00:01:51.398 Envy is covetousness of what others have. 00:01:51.568 --> 00:01:51.898 Yes. 00:01:52.008 --> 00:01:53.268 What others are perhaps. 00:01:54.368 --> 00:01:55.538 I want to be her. 00:01:55.728 --> 00:01:56.976 I want to be him. 00:01:56.976 --> 00:01:59.824 Joe: So garbled messages from who we could be. 00:01:59.824 --> 00:02:03.027 Sam: It's garbled messages I've come to think from the. 00:02:03.038 --> 00:02:05.018 From the future, from your aspirations. 00:02:05.048 --> 00:02:08.898 Ali: Yeah, well like, yeah, there'll be somebody that, I think I realised 00:02:08.898 --> 00:02:11.258 this quite young, like, there'll be somebody I'm like, I don't 00:02:11.258 --> 00:02:12.798 like that person for some reason. 00:02:12.988 --> 00:02:13.808 God, they just give me the shits. 00:02:13.808 --> 00:02:14.898 There's just something about them. 00:02:14.898 --> 00:02:15.718 They're so up themselves. 00:02:15.718 --> 00:02:17.258 Yeah, there's something, and then I, you know. 00:02:18.038 --> 00:02:19.358 Through growth and learning. 00:02:19.358 --> 00:02:19.448 Mm-Hmm. 00:02:19.448 --> 00:02:22.898 And age, wisdom I, you realize, oh, there's something in 00:02:22.898 --> 00:02:24.908 them that I'm so envious of. 00:02:24.908 --> 00:02:24.998 Yes. 00:02:25.178 --> 00:02:25.688 Pay attention 00:02:25.688 --> 00:02:26.168 Sam: to what you 00:02:26.168 --> 00:02:26.498 Ali: hate. 00:02:26.618 --> 00:02:27.218 Yeah. 00:02:27.218 --> 00:02:32.198 And I, and that's one of my, probably my earliest memories of lack of envy 00:02:32.198 --> 00:02:35.258 and actually realizing, oh, that's, there's something in that person that 00:02:35.258 --> 00:02:37.088 Sam: I unexplained hostility towards 00:02:37.093 --> 00:02:39.218 somebody is always very revealing. 00:02:39.278 --> 00:02:39.608 Ali: Yes. 00:02:39.638 --> 00:02:41.108 Sam: If you take the time to think about it. 00:02:41.138 --> 00:02:41.618 Ali: Yes. 00:02:41.618 --> 00:02:42.968 And so, I mean, I, I very. 00:02:43.768 --> 00:02:48.208 I don't find myself these days very envious of people in that way anymore. 00:02:48.658 --> 00:02:52.708 Um, I just, I'm envious of people's lifestyles where they don't have to work. 00:02:53.328 --> 00:02:55.078 Yeah, that's, and you know what? 00:02:55.128 --> 00:02:56.848 That is entirely understandable. 00:02:56.858 --> 00:02:57.058 Yeah, 00:02:57.058 --> 00:03:00.328 that's, I mean, I very like, you know, especially like you see on social 00:03:00.338 --> 00:03:01.608 media or TikTok or something like that. 00:03:01.608 --> 00:03:04.188 You see people living these fabulous lifestyles. 00:03:04.268 --> 00:03:04.808 In theory. 00:03:04.888 --> 00:03:05.588 In theory, yes. 00:03:06.398 --> 00:03:08.338 You know, and seemingly don't have to work. 00:03:08.340 --> 00:03:09.538 that I envy. 00:03:09.538 --> 00:03:11.998 I, I'd like to not have a nine to five. 00:03:12.008 --> 00:03:12.518 That'd be good. 00:03:12.658 --> 00:03:15.578 Sam: Oh, and just to be clear, everybody, Ali is not work shy. 00:03:15.828 --> 00:03:18.298 She would be incredibly busy with the garden and the pickling 00:03:18.298 --> 00:03:22.618 and the salad and the offspring and other people's offspring. 00:03:22.618 --> 00:03:22.708 I don't know. 00:03:23.318 --> 00:03:24.038 Joe: Yeah, we've had this. 00:03:24.139 --> 00:03:24.818 Debate. 00:03:24.818 --> 00:03:25.578 I don't want to get into it. 00:03:25.578 --> 00:03:25.908 I don't think 00:03:25.958 --> 00:03:26.438 Sam: it's relevant to the topic. 00:03:26.438 --> 00:03:28.028 Oh God, it's making Joan cross already. 00:03:28.028 --> 00:03:29.088 See, he envies it. 00:03:29.138 --> 00:03:32.788 Joe: Oh, I just don't think Ali's dream of not working, like she just had a 00:03:33.198 --> 00:03:34.918 month of not working and Not working. 00:03:34.918 --> 00:03:35.558 Fell in a heap. 00:03:35.559 --> 00:03:37.048 She actually 00:03:37.048 --> 00:03:37.838 Sam: needs a structure. 00:03:37.858 --> 00:03:40.838 No, not working a soul destroying wage job. 00:03:40.838 --> 00:03:40.848 Ah, 00:03:40.848 --> 00:03:41.668 Joe: but that's most jobs. 00:03:41.669 --> 00:03:47.008 Like, the jobs are soul destroying, we're forced to do them by capitalism 00:03:47.058 --> 00:03:51.723 and they give us structure and And they keep us vaguely on track. 00:03:51.773 --> 00:03:54.923 And actually, Ali, you would fall in a heap if you got your 00:03:54.953 --> 00:03:57.303 envious desire to not work. 00:03:58.063 --> 00:04:01.733 Ali: No, I feel like there's structure in doing the things you want to 00:04:01.733 --> 00:04:02.983 do and having the time to do it. 00:04:02.983 --> 00:04:04.313 Joe: But when you get the chance, you don't. 00:04:04.313 --> 00:04:04.423 You 00:04:04.433 --> 00:04:04.813 Ali: fall in a heap. 00:04:05.123 --> 00:04:08.773 No, but that's because I don't have the property, the farm property or anything 00:04:08.773 --> 00:04:10.179 like that to actually do the stuff I want 00:04:10.179 --> 00:04:10.382 Joe: to do. 00:04:10.382 --> 00:04:13.703 So you're not envious of any particular person, but you're envious of anyone 00:04:13.703 --> 00:04:15.333 who's got a million dollars or more. 00:04:16.493 --> 00:04:17.843 Ali: No, not necessarily. 00:04:19.158 --> 00:04:21.318 There's just a lifestyle that I. 00:04:21.953 --> 00:04:23.893 Would be able, I would love to be able 00:04:23.983 --> 00:04:25.063 Sam: luxurious lifestyle. 00:04:25.063 --> 00:04:27.653 No, it's not particularly, like it's quite, there would be cow shit involved. 00:04:27.663 --> 00:04:28.583 Ali: Yeah, absolutely. 00:04:28.583 --> 00:04:31.333 Like I've been, I, in my month off, I watched a lot of 00:04:31.333 --> 00:04:32.753 Yellowstone, much to Joe's horror. 00:04:32.993 --> 00:04:34.693 But you know, I'm just like, 00:04:34.823 --> 00:04:36.023 Sam: terrible show in some ways. 00:04:36.063 --> 00:04:39.893 Joe: But then also, my horror was because that guy made a film 00:04:39.943 --> 00:04:44.133 called, uh, Hello High Water, which was incredible, five star film. 00:04:44.133 --> 00:04:45.303 Then he made another, 00:04:45.373 --> 00:04:46.783 Sam: now he's just a, he's a TV machine. 00:04:46.783 --> 00:04:50.323 Joe: Yeah, then he made another film called Wind River, which is incredible. 00:04:50.693 --> 00:04:53.193 And then he took the money and made bloody Yellowstone, which I 00:04:53.543 --> 00:04:56.153 tuned in, I was like, Oh my God, Yellowstone's going to be amazing. 00:04:56.313 --> 00:04:58.293 It's the guy from Hell of High Water. 00:04:58.493 --> 00:05:01.323 And in a way it is amazing to a degree. 00:05:01.533 --> 00:05:06.113 Ali: Yeah, but I'm totally, like I said, I am one step back from booking like a 00:05:06.113 --> 00:05:09.403 one way ticket to Montana and finding a cowboy and living that lifestyle. 00:05:09.413 --> 00:05:10.873 Sam: Well, there is some cheap land in Montana. 00:05:12.123 --> 00:05:13.573 I mean, a lot of it doesn't have any water on it. 00:05:15.223 --> 00:05:17.285 Ali: All those things don't concern me with my interest 00:05:17.285 --> 00:05:18.243 in the play I'm realistic. 00:05:18.243 --> 00:05:20.583 Joe: But bringing it back to the quote, like, you've never 00:05:20.583 --> 00:05:22.243 been envious of an individual? 00:05:22.313 --> 00:05:24.353 And learnt in the Alain de Botton sense? 00:05:24.354 --> 00:05:25.223 Oh no, no, no, you were. 00:05:25.224 --> 00:05:26.603 Ali: You absolutely were when I was younger. 00:05:26.603 --> 00:05:26.743 Not now, not now. 00:05:26.783 --> 00:05:28.223 But I don't very, I don't. 00:05:28.853 --> 00:05:30.063 Feel that now. 00:05:30.073 --> 00:05:30.923 Joe: That's so interesting. 00:05:30.933 --> 00:05:33.163 I was going to say the exact same thing. 00:05:33.683 --> 00:05:36.973 That quote resonates with me massively at 25, 00:05:37.033 --> 00:05:39.153 Sam: but it resonates in a different, it hits different. 00:05:39.153 --> 00:05:39.683 It hits different. 00:05:40.153 --> 00:05:44.353 Joe: Because of the emptiness at the heart of existence. 00:05:44.354 --> 00:05:48.843 And you, I mean, Ali, you've got people in your family who are quite wealthy and. 00:05:49.738 --> 00:05:51.708 It hasn't solved existential problems. 00:05:51.948 --> 00:05:52.758 Ali: No, absolutely not. 00:05:52.758 --> 00:05:52.858 No. 00:05:53.288 --> 00:05:54.388 Some of the most miserable people I know. 00:05:54.389 --> 00:05:54.893 Money. 00:05:54.893 --> 00:05:55.398 Money. 00:05:55.398 --> 00:05:56.888 Sam: Money solves money problems though. 00:05:57.148 --> 00:05:57.648 It has that feature. 00:05:57.938 --> 00:05:58.598 Absolutely. 00:05:58.598 --> 00:05:59.118 Joe: And you know, 00:05:59.138 --> 00:05:59.408 Ali: like. 00:05:59.568 --> 00:06:03.228 What it does is it makes, there's a, I would like to have money so 00:06:03.228 --> 00:06:05.158 that things are not a catastrophe. 00:06:05.158 --> 00:06:06.018 They're just inconveniences. 00:06:06.298 --> 00:06:08.033 Sam: If the roof leaks, it's not the end of the world. 00:06:08.033 --> 00:06:08.448 Joe: And that's right. 00:06:08.458 --> 00:06:12.438 Like I was, I'm in a position where my washing machine broke 00:06:12.438 --> 00:06:14.008 down the other day and I'm fucked. 00:06:14.018 --> 00:06:15.848 I can't, I don't have any money to fix it. 00:06:16.108 --> 00:06:17.088 So that's not a. 00:06:17.548 --> 00:06:22.928 Like a highly intellectual this one way or another about money That's and I hope 00:06:23.108 --> 00:06:26.618 I'm gonna be able to solve the problem, but I need more money I need more money 00:06:26.618 --> 00:06:29.868 so that when my washing machine breaks, I can just get a new one or get it 00:06:29.868 --> 00:06:32.208 repaired Yeah to be able to say fuck. 00:06:32.208 --> 00:06:36.548 I don't know how to wash my clothes that 43 is incredibly depressing Potentially 00:06:36.828 --> 00:06:38.318 didn't actually make me that depressed. 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:44.573 But so there's you'll get on your tits, but there's subsistence like I want 00:06:44.573 --> 00:06:49.593 to be above subsistence, and I used to have envy, yeah, I don't want to 00:06:49.593 --> 00:06:53.513 get too quickly into my envy, I want to hear what you guys have to say, 00:06:53.513 --> 00:06:57.163 but yes, when I read that quote, when I highlighted that quote a couple of 00:06:57.163 --> 00:07:01.813 years ago, I was like, As almost always, Alain de Botton's really onto something. 00:07:01.813 --> 00:07:02.313 Sam: He's nailed it. 00:07:02.993 --> 00:07:08.629 Joe: But what I felt, where I'm at now, is my ambitions drained away to 00:07:08.629 --> 00:07:14.189 the point where the envy that's going to spur me on to outdo that person 00:07:14.189 --> 00:07:16.789 I'm envious of has kind of died out. 00:07:16.789 --> 00:07:18.309 I don't feel that 00:07:18.309 --> 00:07:18.979 in my 40s. 00:07:19.059 --> 00:07:21.881 Or you just don't, you realise that those things that you were 00:07:21.881 --> 00:07:23.097 Sam: It's not going to do it for you. 00:07:23.097 --> 00:07:26.454 Ali: Yeah, that you've tried that or you've, you know, you've You sort of 00:07:26.454 --> 00:07:29.264 work through that or you realize it's not nearly as important as you used to be. 00:07:29.264 --> 00:07:32.264 The importance is just not there that you thought was when you were younger. 00:07:32.274 --> 00:07:35.144 Like, if I think of the people that I was envious of and 00:07:35.144 --> 00:07:36.644 the qualities that they had. 00:07:36.702 --> 00:07:37.442 Sam: It was often pretty basic stuff. 00:07:37.442 --> 00:07:38.522 Ali: It was really basic stuff. 00:07:38.522 --> 00:07:42.232 It was around, you know, popularity and social skills and 00:07:42.262 --> 00:07:43.762 things that I obviously lack. 00:07:43.802 --> 00:07:44.732 Always looking good. 00:07:44.872 --> 00:07:45.192 Yeah. 00:07:45.192 --> 00:07:45.872 Looking amazing. 00:07:46.072 --> 00:07:46.942 All those sorts of things. 00:07:46.942 --> 00:07:47.972 And it's like, actually those 00:07:47.972 --> 00:07:49.262 Sam: Never having a bad skin or hair day. 00:07:49.262 --> 00:07:49.712 Ali: Yeah. 00:07:49.712 --> 00:07:53.712 And I, those things actually seem so immaterial now. 00:07:53.722 --> 00:07:57.232 Like they just don't seem important in the way they used to. 00:07:57.342 --> 00:07:57.612 Yeah. 00:07:59.602 --> 00:08:02.232 Yeah, that it's never something like that, but 00:08:02.232 --> 00:08:05.832 also you're not an acne mess these days and like, were you at any point? 00:08:05.842 --> 00:08:06.072 Yeah, 00:08:06.072 --> 00:08:06.472 absolutely. 00:08:06.472 --> 00:08:06.762 Yeah. 00:08:06.762 --> 00:08:09.652 Terrible, terrible acne, you know, and overweight and terrible 00:08:09.672 --> 00:08:10.612 hair, like terrible hair cut, 00:08:10.832 --> 00:08:12.572 which We all had roaccutane at one point. 00:08:12.602 --> 00:08:13.002 Oh, yep. 00:08:13.442 --> 00:08:13.872 Awful stuff. 00:08:14.032 --> 00:08:14.672 Worst, worst. 00:08:15.052 --> 00:08:16.618 And so, but 00:08:16.618 --> 00:08:18.978 Joe: people would have been envious of you at times, Sam, when you 00:08:18.978 --> 00:08:21.558 were, when you had the hottest girlfriend on Brunswick Street. 00:08:22.373 --> 00:08:22.573 Yep. 00:08:22.603 --> 00:08:26.193 We'd get around in a dress and people be like, wow, that guy's just owning it. 00:08:26.243 --> 00:08:27.453 And like, 00:08:27.453 --> 00:08:29.303 Sam: yeah, I was Russell branding before Russell Brand. 00:08:29.443 --> 00:08:30.573 Oh, Russell Brand. 00:08:30.573 --> 00:08:31.943 No, only in the good sense. 00:08:31.983 --> 00:08:34.253 Oh, not in the sex cult sense. 00:08:34.283 --> 00:08:34.573 Yeah. 00:08:34.573 --> 00:08:36.173 No 16 year old girls. 00:08:36.353 --> 00:08:36.703 No. 00:08:38.703 --> 00:08:40.403 I saw a picture of him one day and I was like, Oh. 00:08:40.531 --> 00:08:41.581 That's what I've been doing. 00:08:41.841 --> 00:08:47.451 Midriff tops and like tight jeans and long hair and, you know, 00:08:47.811 --> 00:08:49.021 it's really just a 70s thing. 00:08:49.391 --> 00:08:50.405 It's just like 70s. 00:08:50.405 --> 00:08:53.691 It's like a 70s, 70s sort of gender. 00:08:54.716 --> 00:08:54.986 What it 00:08:55.336 --> 00:08:58.646 Ali: is, is a sense of style and confidence in that sense of 00:08:58.656 --> 00:09:01.846 style that not a lot of people have that that all can pull off. 00:09:02.746 --> 00:09:05.626 I mean, that's certainly something when I was younger that it takes guts to do it. 00:09:05.626 --> 00:09:06.126 It really does. 00:09:06.126 --> 00:09:06.336 Yeah. 00:09:06.336 --> 00:09:09.596 And then having moments where I've potentially, when I was younger, 00:09:10.006 --> 00:09:13.406 manic and then going out and actually dressing and buying the things that 00:09:13.826 --> 00:09:17.046 We're outrageous and having a wardrobe full of outrageous clothes and actually 00:09:17.046 --> 00:09:19.166 knowing what that feels like and going, Oh, it's actually quite easy. 00:09:19.176 --> 00:09:21.706 If I want to wear my leopard print coat, it's, it's a cheat code. 00:09:21.936 --> 00:09:22.166 Yeah. 00:09:22.166 --> 00:09:23.116 It's, it's a cheat code. 00:09:23.126 --> 00:09:23.416 Yeah. 00:09:23.716 --> 00:09:27.806 Whereas before owning that or before even having the confidence to do that 00:09:27.806 --> 00:09:29.116 and seeing other women like that, 00:09:29.116 --> 00:09:31.206 Sam: it's the will to actually do it yourself. 00:09:31.236 --> 00:09:31.986 That's the problem. 00:09:31.986 --> 00:09:34.496 Ali: The thing, yeah, for me, it was mania was the thing 00:09:34.496 --> 00:09:35.846 that actually tipped me over. 00:09:35.846 --> 00:09:40.081 Sam: It got that, it got that prohibition, that moral prohibition out the way. 00:09:40.651 --> 00:09:44.281 Joe: So, nerdy teenagers, envious of people who are 00:09:44.281 --> 00:09:45.431 more popular and good looking. 00:09:45.461 --> 00:09:45.751 Let's do 00:09:45.751 --> 00:09:46.121 Sam: the list. 00:09:46.781 --> 00:09:50.631 So, when I was 12, I had awful acne, I had braces, I had op shop and 00:09:50.631 --> 00:09:54.881 hand me down clothes, I used long words, I didn't watch any of the 00:09:54.881 --> 00:09:56.281 same shows as any of the other kids. 00:09:56.331 --> 00:09:58.001 Ali: Are you, Sam is explaining my childhood. 00:09:58.741 --> 00:10:01.751 Sam: We are on a, we are on a, yeah, we're on it. 00:10:02.311 --> 00:10:05.141 And it was a feeling of mutual recognition when we met. 00:10:05.151 --> 00:10:07.281 It's like, yep, yep, I know what it was like for you. 00:10:08.311 --> 00:10:11.911 And it's like, and we read too many books and I would try to talk about the wrong 00:10:11.911 --> 00:10:14.431 things and like, just fuck off, nerd. 00:10:15.111 --> 00:10:16.091 But the amount of times I heard that, 00:10:16.091 --> 00:10:17.491 Ali: just like, just shut the fuck up. 00:10:17.491 --> 00:10:18.861 Sam: Yeah, who are you? 00:10:18.861 --> 00:10:19.331 What is this? 00:10:20.101 --> 00:10:20.991 This guy's a fuckwit. 00:10:21.801 --> 00:10:25.004 And then, so envying people that fit it in, okay. 00:10:25.544 --> 00:10:28.354 And then doing the obvious thing and going, well, fuck fitting in 00:10:28.354 --> 00:10:31.524 then, I don't care what anyone thinks, I'm going to stick out more. 00:10:31.894 --> 00:10:32.774 And that like, which is. 00:10:34.899 --> 00:10:35.079 I'm going 00:10:35.079 --> 00:10:36.339 Ali: to put the target on my back myself. 00:10:37.239 --> 00:10:37.599 Sam: That's right. 00:10:37.629 --> 00:10:39.759 And it's, it's understandable, but counterproductive. 00:10:40.119 --> 00:10:43.999 And eventually you realize it was actually, it just gives you 00:10:44.099 --> 00:10:45.599 actually have some desire to fit in. 00:10:45.609 --> 00:10:49.389 Doesn't mean you're like you're in, you know, fascist has won the battle. 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:51.339 Like it's a little more complicated than that. 00:10:51.618 --> 00:10:54.408 Ali: He's just wanting to feel a sense of community and a part of something. 00:10:54.898 --> 00:10:55.148 Yeah. 00:10:55.188 --> 00:10:59.818 Which is a very human, you know, thing to want to not, to not be lonely. 00:10:59.818 --> 00:11:02.488 And there's a loneliness in being that weird, awkward child. 00:11:02.498 --> 00:11:03.028 Sam: There sure is. 00:11:03.308 --> 00:11:06.237 And, and, and let's look at the most successful, cause Alain de Botton 00:11:06.238 --> 00:11:07.608 is very instructive in this regard. 00:11:07.608 --> 00:11:10.578 Cause he said another thing, which I've been thinking about this whole time, which 00:11:10.578 --> 00:11:13.698 is advertising sells us important things. 00:11:15.063 --> 00:11:18.203 They show us pictures of what we really want and then 00:11:18.203 --> 00:11:19.563 replace it with something else. 00:11:19.923 --> 00:11:21.793 And so, what do we want? 00:11:22.233 --> 00:11:28.673 Belonging, being valued by others, and usefulness, and like, an 00:11:28.693 --> 00:11:29.943 integrated, meaningful life. 00:11:29.994 --> 00:11:32.374 we want to fit in, but we want to be able to be different at the same time. 00:11:32.404 --> 00:11:33.534 And so I also envied 00:11:33.534 --> 00:11:35.724 Ali: I want to fit in, but like be accepted just for 00:11:35.734 --> 00:11:37.294 who we are as an individual. 00:11:37.294 --> 00:11:37.834 Yes, exactly. 00:11:37.834 --> 00:11:38.094 Sam: Yes. 00:11:38.744 --> 00:11:42.424 I want us, I want everyone to accept me as Completely like 00:11:42.424 --> 00:11:45.374 them, but also to celebrate me in all the ways I'm not like them. 00:11:45.714 --> 00:11:48.444 Yes, and I'm going to envy the people. 00:11:48.854 --> 00:11:52.524 So I went from envying the people that stood, that fitted in really 00:11:52.524 --> 00:11:56.204 well, to envying the people that stood out in the right way. 00:11:56.644 --> 00:12:00.314 And then little by little, I was able to do that. 00:12:00.394 --> 00:12:02.674 And then as you say, Jo, studied. 00:12:03.164 --> 00:12:07.694 I envy so well that I was able to inspire it in others and then 00:12:07.704 --> 00:12:09.744 realised how hollow that was as well. 00:12:10.164 --> 00:12:10.524 Joe: Yes. 00:12:10.574 --> 00:12:10.824 Yeah. 00:12:10.904 --> 00:12:13.584 So do you have a number one person you've ever been envious of? 00:12:13.584 --> 00:12:14.364 Oh, sure. 00:12:14.384 --> 00:12:14.564 Like 00:12:14.584 --> 00:12:16.254 Sam: Jim Morrison or Jimi Hendrix. 00:12:16.264 --> 00:12:17.174 Oh, so 00:12:17.174 --> 00:12:21.094 Joe: not, but not in your actual, not a contemporary or someone in your, Oh 00:12:21.604 --> 00:12:22.254 Sam: yeah, of course. 00:12:22.572 --> 00:12:26.732 actually, you know, just as often it was girls, you know, a girl I 00:12:26.732 --> 00:12:27.972 can remember was very athletic. 00:12:28.807 --> 00:12:31.007 Like, I mean, a lot of other people thought she was super good looking. 00:12:31.007 --> 00:12:31.847 That wasn't the thing. 00:12:31.877 --> 00:12:36.937 It was just, uh, like gracefulness and the physical, superb physical instincts. 00:12:37.397 --> 00:12:41.227 Just knew when to turn and where to look and like, complete mystery to me. 00:12:41.227 --> 00:12:42.037 How do you do that? 00:12:42.287 --> 00:12:43.807 Ali: It was all, I mean, I went to like a. 00:12:44.237 --> 00:12:45.817 You know, private all girls school. 00:12:45.817 --> 00:12:49.357 So there was a lot of girls who were like, who ticked all of those 00:12:49.357 --> 00:12:53.597 boxes who were like, they were academic, but they were also athletic. 00:12:53.987 --> 00:12:56.417 They were in, you know, they were in the school plays. 00:12:56.447 --> 00:13:00.027 They were like, they were just, you know, they had all the badges on their blazer. 00:13:00.317 --> 00:13:02.237 They were in all the groups, you know, they were all the elite. 00:13:02.487 --> 00:13:05.032 They're today's, you know, You know, leaders, right? 00:13:05.032 --> 00:13:09.122 Like successful women, some of them peaked in high school, but a lot of them 00:13:09.122 --> 00:13:11.132 have gone on to do like amazing things. 00:13:11.132 --> 00:13:15.182 And just as this very socially awkward, unmotivated. 00:13:17.097 --> 00:13:17.987 Scatterbrain. 00:13:19.667 --> 00:13:23.607 And just, and you know, into my, in my, so much in my own little world. 00:13:23.707 --> 00:13:26.897 Sam: I envy people that have it together, like that can put 00:13:26.897 --> 00:13:28.057 things on a list and then do them. 00:13:28.067 --> 00:13:28.457 Yes. 00:13:28.517 --> 00:13:28.887 Ali: Yeah. 00:13:28.897 --> 00:13:29.417 Very much so. 00:13:29.587 --> 00:13:31.597 Like, yeah, they were like, okay, we've got exams now. 00:13:31.597 --> 00:13:32.497 I'm going to study this. 00:13:32.497 --> 00:13:34.427 Sam: And then do you do that? 00:13:34.427 --> 00:13:37.387 Ali: I'm going to read it on the tram on the way to school, which is what 00:13:37.527 --> 00:13:40.297 I think I did for a lot of year 12. 00:13:40.297 --> 00:13:41.987 And like, I just, you know, I was like, okay, well this is 00:13:41.987 --> 00:13:42.687 as much as I'm going to learn. 00:13:43.527 --> 00:13:44.607 I was just lucky I had a good 00:13:44.617 --> 00:13:45.217 memory. 00:13:45.217 --> 00:13:49.557 Yeah, had enough natural gifts to just, like, get you through. 00:13:49.987 --> 00:13:53.828 Yeah, but like, yeah, like just the people who, I suppose, I think, 00:13:53.828 --> 00:13:56.148 yeah, that, that, that work ethic. 00:13:56.628 --> 00:14:00.428 Which, I mean, I've only come to recognize that I actually do have in 00:14:00.428 --> 00:14:03.868 myself, but I've obviously got a lot of barriers to it, but I, but it actually 00:14:03.868 --> 00:14:07.028 is there, but that was something I really envied in a lot of people and 00:14:07.028 --> 00:14:11.108 what it was, was sort of an executive function, basically, like who's, or 00:14:11.138 --> 00:14:13.958 like, it's more, actually, I should say it's more than an executive function 00:14:13.978 --> 00:14:17.808 and the person I would say actually more so than anybody else I'd ever met in 00:14:17.808 --> 00:14:20.148 my entire life is my, my son's father. 00:14:20.148 --> 00:14:20.178 Yeah. 00:14:20.633 --> 00:14:23.533 He's one of those people that will go, I'm going to do the thing 00:14:24.043 --> 00:14:25.373 and then just does the thing. 00:14:26.073 --> 00:14:28.483 And then like, whatever it was, whether it was, I'm going to 00:14:28.483 --> 00:14:29.893 learn how to use a unicycle. 00:14:29.933 --> 00:14:31.213 I'm going to learn how to juggle this week. 00:14:31.383 --> 00:14:33.033 I'm going to learn how to read. 00:14:33.173 --> 00:14:35.163 I'm going to read up on this very specific topic. 00:14:35.183 --> 00:14:37.833 Sam: I'm going to, I'm going to get to three balls this week. 00:14:37.853 --> 00:14:37.953 Ali: Yeah. 00:14:38.323 --> 00:14:40.553 And then I was like, I'm going to learn about the stock market this week. 00:14:40.983 --> 00:14:41.823 Whatever it was. 00:14:41.833 --> 00:14:43.503 Joe: Three incredibly annoying examples. 00:14:43.523 --> 00:14:43.743 Ali: Yeah. 00:14:43.743 --> 00:14:44.853 Whatever it was. 00:14:44.903 --> 00:14:45.323 I love it. 00:14:45.423 --> 00:14:45.833 Whatever. 00:14:46.003 --> 00:14:46.173 Yeah. 00:14:46.173 --> 00:14:46.713 He was like. 00:14:46.963 --> 00:14:49.403 The joke was that he was becoming like a circus clown because he was learning 00:14:49.403 --> 00:14:50.563 how to like do all those sorts of things. 00:14:50.813 --> 00:14:52.353 But whatever it was, there was always like 00:14:52.353 --> 00:14:54.363 Joe: a little God, juggling, unicycle, stock market. 00:14:54.363 --> 00:14:55.423 What an arsehole. 00:14:55.433 --> 00:14:58.813 Ali: Whatever it was, it didn't, like, whatever, like, yeah. 00:14:58.813 --> 00:14:59.463 It doesn't matter. 00:14:59.463 --> 00:15:02.263 It's, it's It was just, I've decided, oh, this week I'm going to do this thing. 00:15:02.303 --> 00:15:03.923 Sam: No, he just identified it as a challenging thing. 00:15:03.923 --> 00:15:04.293 It's like And 00:15:04.293 --> 00:15:06.793 Ali: then, yeah, he just needed a challenge and then he would just Just 00:15:06.793 --> 00:15:08.723 do it and then he would complete it. 00:15:08.943 --> 00:15:12.706 And I just found that just baffling that I couldn't even get past the first step. 00:15:12.706 --> 00:15:13.258 Joe: This is interesting. 00:15:13.258 --> 00:15:14.751 So you're envious of your partner. 00:15:14.781 --> 00:15:15.241 Ali: Yes. 00:15:15.291 --> 00:15:15.641 Sam: Oh yeah. 00:15:15.901 --> 00:15:16.461 I've been there. 00:15:16.531 --> 00:15:17.141 Ali: Absolutely. 00:15:17.141 --> 00:15:17.381 Yeah. 00:15:17.381 --> 00:15:21.831 I was, it was just, and I mean, and from him, I was a source of frustration 00:15:21.831 --> 00:15:24.581 in that I would say I want to do all these things, but I wouldn't do them. 00:15:25.261 --> 00:15:26.831 And so it would become like this mystification. 00:15:27.291 --> 00:15:29.061 It would just be like this point of resentment. 00:15:29.061 --> 00:15:31.081 It's like, you're not doing the thing you said you're going to do. 00:15:31.411 --> 00:15:31.811 Totally. 00:15:31.981 --> 00:15:32.231 Yeah. 00:15:32.301 --> 00:15:34.751 So what's the matter with you? 00:15:34.751 --> 00:15:37.683 Well, one of the many reasons, but like but yeah, but I mean, so it's one of 00:15:37.683 --> 00:15:41.263 those things I simultaneously absolutely admired about him and do admire about him. 00:15:41.263 --> 00:15:44.673 And I think he's, you know, one of the wonderful things he's actually passed 00:15:44.673 --> 00:15:49.226 on to my son, who's also like very similarly minded to him, in that way. 00:15:49.236 --> 00:15:52.886 So, you know, grateful, but also, yeah, like I would be. 00:15:53.296 --> 00:15:54.456 I was very envious of 00:15:54.506 --> 00:15:54.856 Sam: that. 00:15:55.436 --> 00:15:55.906 That's hard. 00:15:55.916 --> 00:15:56.436 Well, would you be? 00:15:56.436 --> 00:15:57.116 Yeah, very hard. 00:15:57.696 --> 00:15:58.816 I can certainly relate. 00:15:58.887 --> 00:16:00.459 Joe: Yeah, your partner's very accomplished. 00:16:00.459 --> 00:16:01.139 Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:16:01.139 --> 00:16:02.849 I've always had very accomplished partners. 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:03.439 Always. 00:16:03.539 --> 00:16:05.819 No, a girl could be pretty. 00:16:05.859 --> 00:16:06.479 Not enough. 00:16:06.529 --> 00:16:07.359 Not enough. 00:16:07.699 --> 00:16:09.149 Like, yeah, on its own. 00:16:09.169 --> 00:16:09.909 No, no. 00:16:09.909 --> 00:16:15.239 Joe: And like having some sort of drive 00:16:15.619 --> 00:16:17.469 Sam: and like, they can do something I can't do. 00:16:17.709 --> 00:16:20.059 Like, and it, it doesn't matter what it is. 00:16:20.069 --> 00:16:22.799 It's like, it's just anything that's like admirable. 00:16:22.849 --> 00:16:24.379 And yeah, I'm going to try to do that too. 00:16:25.619 --> 00:16:26.079 It's hot. 00:16:26.129 --> 00:16:26.599 It is. 00:16:26.629 --> 00:16:27.039 Ali: Yeah. 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:28.835 Like, just like, even watching a 00:16:28.835 --> 00:16:29.990 Joe: man But what do they get from us? 00:16:29.990 --> 00:16:31.110 Just a bit of entertainment. 00:16:31.160 --> 00:16:31.820 I'm competent 00:16:31.830 --> 00:16:32.000 Sam: too. 00:16:32.310 --> 00:16:34.550 Ali: No, but just watching, like, I remember this, this is another 00:16:34.550 --> 00:16:38.370 X years ago and him driving so confidently without directions. 00:16:38.380 --> 00:16:39.900 And I was just like How do you do that? 00:16:39.940 --> 00:16:42.500 I'm like, I'm so much more attracted to you right now. 00:16:42.550 --> 00:16:45.550 Cause he was always a little bit useless in every other way, but like, that 00:16:45.550 --> 00:16:47.410 was one time I remember looking at him 00:16:47.410 --> 00:16:49.150 Sam: going Baby driver. 00:16:49.410 --> 00:16:49.940 Good movie. 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:50.530 Yeah. 00:16:50.540 --> 00:16:50.910 Incredible. 00:16:51.190 --> 00:16:53.530 Ali: But yeah, but I was just, it was like in a moment where I was like, Ooh. 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:53.720 Yeah. 00:16:54.410 --> 00:16:54.730 It's hot. 00:16:54.760 --> 00:16:55.960 Like it's hot. 00:16:55.970 --> 00:16:58.600 Like, yeah, just, well, you know, watching someone help, you know, like 00:16:58.610 --> 00:17:03.140 just do something with ease, whether it's watching them cook a meal or put 00:17:03.140 --> 00:17:07.110 a tent up or like figure out how to fix the washing machine, whatever it is, 00:17:07.150 --> 00:17:09.150 watching somebody do something like that. 00:17:09.190 --> 00:17:11.720 Joe: It makes me realize I need to get more women to watch me play cricket. 00:17:11.810 --> 00:17:12.420 Sam: It's so instructive. 00:17:12.780 --> 00:17:13.260 Wow. 00:17:13.280 --> 00:17:14.550 That's a such a hard sell. 00:17:14.560 --> 00:17:15.760 Joe: It's the only thing that I do that. 00:17:15.810 --> 00:17:17.860 Well, that's, yeah, that's, you've got to invite all of you. 00:17:17.860 --> 00:17:19.140 I'm do any of those other things you just listed. 00:17:19.660 --> 00:17:20.670 Sam: No, you're good at potting. 00:17:20.750 --> 00:17:21.100 There you go. 00:17:21.690 --> 00:17:23.390 Joe: I'm a good driver, but Oh, you are? 00:17:23.390 --> 00:17:23.930 That's true. 00:17:23.950 --> 00:17:26.310 Like, I'm a confident and exciting driver. 00:17:27.120 --> 00:17:28.160 Ali: I've driven with you, Joe. 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:29.570 It's like taking your life into your hands. 00:17:29.570 --> 00:17:30.150 Victoria Police. 00:17:30.150 --> 00:17:30.620 Oh my God. 00:17:30.970 --> 00:17:31.390 No, it's not. 00:17:31.570 --> 00:17:32.040 Yes, it is. 00:17:32.040 --> 00:17:35.112 You've got, you're so, with the phone, oh my God. 00:17:35.112 --> 00:17:36.126 He's melded with the machine. 00:17:36.126 --> 00:17:37.544 He's changing the music every two seconds. 00:17:37.544 --> 00:17:37.747 Yeah, 00:17:37.747 --> 00:17:40.470 Sam: but I'm, I'm Do you know what, at one, I'm at one. 00:17:40.470 --> 00:17:41.995 Joe, I've got a product recommendation for you. 00:17:41.995 --> 00:17:42.757 I'm in the flow state. 00:17:42.757 --> 00:17:44.290 You need to check out Perplexity. 00:17:45.060 --> 00:17:48.230 It's going to, it's going to solve a number of problems for you all at once. 00:17:48.250 --> 00:17:52.511 It's going to give you that fire hose of news, but like actual 00:17:52.521 --> 00:17:53.961 just dot points, no fluff. 00:17:54.181 --> 00:17:55.531 And yeah, try perplexity. 00:17:55.531 --> 00:17:56.981 It's the new AI product. 00:17:56.981 --> 00:17:57.481 That's it. 00:17:57.711 --> 00:18:00.991 Basically they want to take down Google and, and traditional 00:18:01.001 --> 00:18:02.191 media at the same time. 00:18:02.264 --> 00:18:05.693 as in the traditional article media, I reckon you'd love it, but cause 00:18:05.693 --> 00:18:08.713 yeah, I've never seen anyone as well integrated with their device. 00:18:08.753 --> 00:18:09.283 Yes. 00:18:09.373 --> 00:18:11.343 Like just completely one. 00:18:11.397 --> 00:18:13.117 With like two machines at the same time. 00:18:13.117 --> 00:18:16.917 Ali: Yeah, he's having like three conversations and driving and changing 00:18:16.917 --> 00:18:20.217 the music and putting in Google directions and it's like, okay. 00:18:20.902 --> 00:18:21.522 Joe: It's a flow state. 00:18:21.522 --> 00:18:21.912 It is. 00:18:22.932 --> 00:18:23.592 It's a flow state. 00:18:23.612 --> 00:18:24.182 It's really something. 00:18:24.372 --> 00:18:25.922 That'll help you if you get pulled over, Joe. 00:18:25.922 --> 00:18:27.312 As I said, Victoria Police covered this. 00:18:27.312 --> 00:18:27.697 No, it's 00:18:27.697 --> 00:18:28.762 all, it's all legal. 00:18:28.762 --> 00:18:30.102 It's all up on my dashboard. 00:18:30.132 --> 00:18:30.372 Yeah. 00:18:30.442 --> 00:18:30.872 Oh yeah, that's true. 00:18:30.872 --> 00:18:32.522 It's not like I'm looking at it in my, in my lap. 00:18:32.592 --> 00:18:32.892 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:32.902 --> 00:18:34.592 Anyway, we're way off the topic of everything. 00:18:34.592 --> 00:18:37.782 So you two won't name, I was going to name names, that's why I, I was trying to 00:18:37.792 --> 00:18:41.412 get you guys, not from your high school, but in your twenties or thirties, like. 00:18:41.472 --> 00:18:42.902 Sam: Okay, I can do, I can do you one better. 00:18:43.522 --> 00:18:44.512 Much more recent. 00:18:44.562 --> 00:18:45.552 I can't name names though. 00:18:45.552 --> 00:18:48.677 It's just basically, late 30s or whatever, I became aware of the, 00:18:48.747 --> 00:18:50.117 you know, the active wear trend. 00:18:50.192 --> 00:18:54.422 I think in America they refer to yoga pants and, you know, people, well 00:18:54.482 --> 00:18:56.272 women walking around in yoga pants. 00:18:56.328 --> 00:19:00.948 And so for like a brief moment, I had that like, not a moralistic reaction, 00:19:00.948 --> 00:19:02.431 just a Oh, we're doing that now, are we? 00:19:02.431 --> 00:19:04.111 Like this is acceptable, is it? 00:19:04.141 --> 00:19:06.961 And like, I couldn't, you know, honestly, I felt a degree of sadness. 00:19:07.001 --> 00:19:07.517 What are you 00:19:07.517 --> 00:19:08.002 Joe: talking about? 00:19:08.002 --> 00:19:09.215 Like camel toes in public? 00:19:09.215 --> 00:19:09.943 Not, no, no, 00:19:09.943 --> 00:19:13.281 Ali: just, no, it's like a lack of effort to get dressed at the 00:19:13.281 --> 00:19:14.143 house that you're just wearing. 00:19:14.143 --> 00:19:14.479 I thought it 00:19:14.479 --> 00:19:16.631 Joe: was like displaying your entire anatomy. 00:19:16.641 --> 00:19:17.871 Oh, well that, that can happen too. 00:19:18.271 --> 00:19:18.541 Ali: Yeah. 00:19:18.541 --> 00:19:21.231 But it's, it's more, I, I, I perceive it as like. 00:19:21.399 --> 00:19:24.059 Yeah, that there's no sense of occasion when people leave the 00:19:24.059 --> 00:19:25.239 house anymore with clothes. 00:19:25.349 --> 00:19:25.629 Yeah. 00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:26.169 Sam: Now, and 00:19:26.169 --> 00:19:28.139 Joe: I think that's Oh, see, I always thought women were 00:19:28.139 --> 00:19:30.679 getting pissed off because other women had better bums than them. 00:19:31.059 --> 00:19:33.133 Ali: There's probably an element of that with some women, but I just 00:19:33.133 --> 00:19:35.289 Oh, but no, there's a lot of things going on all at once, like Yeah, 00:19:35.289 --> 00:19:36.549 but then, like, who am I to judge? 00:19:36.549 --> 00:19:39.549 Because it's comfy, and I've certainly gone out in my leggings before, so 00:19:39.639 --> 00:19:39.929 Sam: That's right. 00:19:39.969 --> 00:19:43.034 I own nice clothes, and I can't wear them anywhere. 00:19:43.324 --> 00:19:44.524 It was same, same, exactly. 00:19:44.534 --> 00:19:47.174 No, but at first, at first I was denying that. 00:19:47.304 --> 00:19:48.344 Ah, to yourself. 00:19:48.674 --> 00:19:52.964 At first I was like, judgy and like, oh, well, you know, okay, 00:19:52.964 --> 00:19:54.034 everyone's given up, I guess. 00:19:54.304 --> 00:19:55.304 George Costanza. 00:19:55.304 --> 00:19:57.904 Ali: Yeah, like I had that, like, it's a crotchety old, like, oh, 00:19:57.904 --> 00:19:59.544 we're not putting any effort anymore. 00:19:59.544 --> 00:20:01.554 Joe: The richer parts of town, you see it a lot more. 00:20:01.554 --> 00:20:01.764 Yeah, 00:20:01.764 --> 00:20:03.819 Ali: but they're wearing like $400 leggings. 00:20:03.819 --> 00:20:03.879 Yeah. 00:20:03.884 --> 00:20:06.329 They're wearing the Beck Judd leggings. 00:20:06.659 --> 00:20:07.799 That's the Jaguar leggings. 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:10.264 That's, they like, they're not, it's not that outfit costs more more than like, 00:20:10.264 --> 00:20:10.919 Joe: it's not no statement. 00:20:10.919 --> 00:20:14.129 It's a statement of it's look at my legs and bum. 00:20:14.449 --> 00:20:15.079 Sam: Oh well, yeah. 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:17.809 But then, but then you also see people that don't have gym bodies doing it. 00:20:17.899 --> 00:20:17.989 Yeah. 00:20:17.989 --> 00:20:18.889 And actually. 00:20:19.409 --> 00:20:20.649 That's offensive, I agree. 00:20:20.659 --> 00:20:22.336 No, no, see, that's the thing, right? 00:20:22.336 --> 00:20:24.009 Ali: Jesus Christ, Joe! 00:20:24.009 --> 00:20:25.269 Sam: It was a joke, it was a good joke. 00:20:25.269 --> 00:20:26.399 He was able to jump on it. 00:20:26.419 --> 00:20:27.979 He saw the opportunity. 00:20:28.399 --> 00:20:31.099 So, I actually was, that's what It 00:20:31.099 --> 00:20:31.909 Ali: was so 00:20:31.909 --> 00:20:32.209 Sam: easy. 00:20:33.719 --> 00:20:34.439 It's true. 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:35.479 Just reeled her in. 00:20:36.169 --> 00:20:38.119 But that's what actually changed it for me. 00:20:38.529 --> 00:20:42.119 Because I had a moment of like a crossroads where I basically realized I'd 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:46.849 accepted it and I was like put completely not that it's Men don't ever do it though. 00:20:46.849 --> 00:20:47.749 This is where I'm going with it. 00:20:48.369 --> 00:20:56.279 So envying the option and envying you look comfortable and you and you look 00:20:56.289 --> 00:21:01.974 happy with yourself and I've felt that way too and I want to feel that way again. 00:21:02.074 --> 00:21:05.434 Ali: It's like men who have to wear suits into the office in the peak of summer. 00:21:05.464 --> 00:21:05.814 Gross. 00:21:05.874 --> 00:21:08.334 Like one of my exes, he used to say, like, it's just so unfair that you can 00:21:08.334 --> 00:21:09.684 wear a dress in the peak of summer. 00:21:09.684 --> 00:21:10.604 I got to wear a tie and a suit. 00:21:10.614 --> 00:21:10.924 Totally. 00:21:11.399 --> 00:21:12.399 Which is, yeah, it's bullshit. 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:13.129 Pants suck in Hollywood. 00:21:13.129 --> 00:21:15.929 I think it's the culture around that's really shifted, especially, I mean, I 00:21:15.929 --> 00:21:19.659 still work in a corporate thing and I very rarely see men with a tie, like, 00:21:19.679 --> 00:21:23.019 and that's even in law and like they, you know, obviously they wear their, 00:21:23.029 --> 00:21:25.799 you know, gowns and stuff when they're in court, but that's a whole different, 00:21:25.939 --> 00:21:27.019 you know, that's completely different. 00:21:27.169 --> 00:21:29.889 Outside of that, most of them are not wearing a suit and tie. 00:21:29.919 --> 00:21:33.269 They're just, you know, it might be in a smart shirt and pants or jeans, but. 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:36.099 The same as, yeah, like even like the women, like they don't get dressed 00:21:36.099 --> 00:21:37.899 up like, nobody gets dressed up. 00:21:37.899 --> 00:21:40.559 I think the pandemic as well really shifted the way we all dress. 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:44.619 Sam: There's so few, there's so few occasions and I mean, yeah, well, 00:21:44.779 --> 00:21:48.079 so the, the envy was like kind of the opposite of not having enough 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:50.229 occasions to like wear a nice thing. 00:21:50.439 --> 00:21:54.191 It's like, okay, well now, every day is casual Friday and that's great. 00:21:54.291 --> 00:21:56.211 I eventually realized, and it wasn't. 00:21:56.811 --> 00:21:59.401 I didn't need to have any judgements or feel any kind of way about it. 00:21:59.971 --> 00:22:02.611 What I was missing was the obvious thing that I admired all these 00:22:02.611 --> 00:22:06.251 people for that decision and I admired, I could see it felt good. 00:22:06.791 --> 00:22:10.641 And then so eventually, you know, letting the envy instruct me and I 00:22:10.641 --> 00:22:15.913 came to a crossroads with a friend and, uh, we scrawled by, not a gym 00:22:15.913 --> 00:22:18.453 body, and we had opposite reactions. 00:22:18.507 --> 00:22:21.400 and I was like, because it was beyond the yoga pants, it was 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:26.136 like, three quarters, you know, o of skin area is like, it's there. 00:22:26.316 --> 00:22:26.496 Mm-Hmm. 00:22:26.586 --> 00:22:28.836 And it's, but it's like, it's all working as far as I'm concerned. 00:22:28.841 --> 00:22:29.031 Like Mm-Hmm. 00:22:29.036 --> 00:22:30.456 Like, she's a bigger girl, but Yeah. 00:22:30.546 --> 00:22:31.446 Statuesque. 00:22:31.536 --> 00:22:31.656 Yeah. 00:22:31.836 --> 00:22:32.316 Great. 00:22:32.366 --> 00:22:34.046 I'm like, see, there you go 00:22:34.046 --> 00:22:35.246 that, that, that would feel good. 00:22:35.366 --> 00:22:35.456 Mm-Hmm. 00:22:35.456 --> 00:22:36.806 And he's like, oh no. 00:22:37.426 --> 00:22:37.946 Not at all. 00:22:38.026 --> 00:22:38.796 Come on, what's happened? 00:22:39.296 --> 00:22:40.696 And I'm like, that's what I used to think. 00:22:41.216 --> 00:22:43.768 Now I'm like, I, the penny's dropped. 00:22:44.138 --> 00:22:45.468 I'm on board with this. 00:22:45.868 --> 00:22:46.678 Yes, I get it. 00:22:46.698 --> 00:22:48.238 Body positivity is for everyone. 00:22:48.358 --> 00:22:51.467 It's not, it's not just for big people or this bit. 00:22:51.667 --> 00:22:52.527 Like it's for everyone. 00:22:52.547 --> 00:22:54.377 Sex positivity is for everyone. 00:22:54.523 --> 00:22:56.123 but are yoga pants for everyone? 00:22:56.303 --> 00:22:57.963 This is my question. 00:22:58.078 --> 00:23:01.097 Cause when ladies have their bits on display. 00:23:01.149 --> 00:23:02.348 No one has a problem with it. 00:23:02.458 --> 00:23:03.178 It's great. 00:23:03.294 --> 00:23:08.559 But, does anyone need You know, budgie smugglers, yay or nay. 00:23:08.849 --> 00:23:09.589 No, yeah, 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:11.359 Joe: there's no need for them at the beach. 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:14.419 I suppose it's like Europe and it's some weird cultural thing that we 00:23:14.419 --> 00:23:16.179 don't understand, fine, but like Yeah. 00:23:16.479 --> 00:23:19.319 I just spent a week at the beach, I think I saw one person in budgie smugglers 00:23:19.349 --> 00:23:21.821 and they looked ridiculous because you could see their dick and balls. 00:23:21.861 --> 00:23:22.101 Ali: Okay. 00:23:22.111 --> 00:23:23.241 But what about like Bike shorts. 00:23:23.241 --> 00:23:27.021 I was going to say like the mammals, you see like the middle aged men in Lycra. 00:23:27.061 --> 00:23:28.007 Like you see 00:23:28.007 --> 00:23:28.375 Sam: there. 00:23:28.375 --> 00:23:29.111 Yeah, yeah. 00:23:29.111 --> 00:23:29.551 But I want 00:23:29.551 --> 00:23:30.616 Joe: to do it when I'm not riding a bike. 00:23:30.616 --> 00:23:32.851 But they're moving, at least they're moving at 50 k's an hour. 00:23:33.116 --> 00:23:35.901 Sam: No, but then I get off the bike and they all go to 00:23:35.901 --> 00:23:38.726 Ali: the cafe and they're all, yeah, that's bad luck too. 00:23:38.886 --> 00:23:39.016 It's not. 00:23:39.016 --> 00:23:46.656 I, I just, I, I've so moved beyond caring what anybody, yeah, like, yeah, when I was 00:23:46.926 --> 00:23:47.536 Joe: getting to a point. 00:23:48.226 --> 00:23:50.716 It's just, I don't know what this has to do with Envy, but 00:23:50.846 --> 00:23:52.196 it's gotten to a point where I 00:23:52.206 --> 00:23:55.486 Sam: thought I wasn't allowed to wear bike shorts, Joe, because you see 00:23:55.486 --> 00:23:59.306 girls wearing bike shorts, and they're comfortable, and people of all ages, not 00:23:59.306 --> 00:24:00.016 Joe: just young people. 00:24:00.346 --> 00:24:02.096 And they just answered it, just wear Lycra. 00:24:02.146 --> 00:24:02.756 Just wear it. 00:24:02.866 --> 00:24:03.196 Yeah. 00:24:03.376 --> 00:24:03.866 Just rock it. 00:24:03.866 --> 00:24:04.216 Sam: I started. 00:24:04.316 --> 00:24:04.626 Yeah. 00:24:05.026 --> 00:24:08.946 And then, you know, I did get a little pushback, you know, from like one person, 00:24:08.976 --> 00:24:10.506 like, oh, and you're not exercising? 00:24:10.526 --> 00:24:11.616 And I'm like, Who cares? 00:24:11.656 --> 00:24:13.996 Well, actually, I did do a fast walk. 00:24:14.166 --> 00:24:15.396 I broke into a jog earlier. 00:24:15.971 --> 00:24:18.431 In fact, it just creates a feeling of that, that being an option. 00:24:18.701 --> 00:24:20.531 Ali: But there's things you shouldn't even have to justify. 00:24:20.541 --> 00:24:23.651 If you just, you just like the vibe, you like the look, you like the comfort. 00:24:23.651 --> 00:24:26.031 Joe: And that's what someone said to me about, um What is the 00:24:26.031 --> 00:24:26.511 Sam: reason? 00:24:26.691 --> 00:24:28.471 I don't need to interview them anymore, I just join them. 00:24:28.521 --> 00:24:28.791 Joe: Yeah. 00:24:29.256 --> 00:24:31.886 Someone said to me, you know, women aren't going to be impressed with you, Joe, 00:24:31.936 --> 00:24:35.036 walking around in a tracksuit when you're damn sure, no, you haven't been for a run. 00:24:35.036 --> 00:24:37.356 Just by looking at you. 00:24:37.516 --> 00:24:38.676 Sam: Missing the point of tracksuits. 00:24:39.116 --> 00:24:39.676 I mean, sure. 00:24:39.806 --> 00:24:39.996 It's 00:24:40.066 --> 00:24:40.996 Ali: leisure wear. 00:24:40.996 --> 00:24:42.726 Leisure can be however you want to. 00:24:42.726 --> 00:24:45.086 Joe: I walk around in the most comfortable clothes I can find. 00:24:45.106 --> 00:24:47.266 Sam: Anyone who hasn't had the memo might judge it. 00:24:47.306 --> 00:24:49.826 Joe: But like, I'm putting in a huge amount of effort to have a look. 00:24:50.471 --> 00:24:52.451 I like someone in yoga pants generally. 00:24:52.511 --> 00:24:54.800 Sam: Well, today you've got stubbies and a short sleeve 00:24:54.800 --> 00:24:56.652 shirt and they match and they do. 00:24:56.652 --> 00:25:00.681 Ali: I really disagree with that in that there are a lot of women who spend, like I 00:25:00.681 --> 00:25:07.151 said, a lot of money on matching high end active wear, but it is actually the look. 00:25:07.191 --> 00:25:10.351 It is not that they've, I've just thrown, like, I'll throw on leggings 00:25:10.561 --> 00:25:14.069 because I'm just like, can't be bothered getting changed into pants to go to the 00:25:14.069 --> 00:25:15.704 supermarket, but it's different levels. 00:25:15.704 --> 00:25:18.976 Joe: It's attractive in the same way that going to Elwood. 00:25:19.116 --> 00:25:22.616 And every woman you saw was naked or in their underwear is attractive. 00:25:22.666 --> 00:25:25.766 It's just that the female form is attractive to me as a straight man. 00:25:26.266 --> 00:25:29.366 And the female form is basically with the thinnest layer of 00:25:29.406 --> 00:25:30.606 Sam: I would say it's universally 00:25:30.746 --> 00:25:30.976 Joe: admired. 00:25:30.976 --> 00:25:34.846 It's probably less sexy than the 60s and miniskirts or something. 00:25:35.246 --> 00:25:35.886 So 00:25:35.976 --> 00:25:36.656 Sam: Well, that's just it. 00:25:36.696 --> 00:25:36.976 I've 00:25:37.076 --> 00:25:38.656 Joe: eventually What's the envy link? 00:25:38.946 --> 00:25:43.486 The envy is that you wanted to be able to walk around like a woman in yoga pants. 00:25:43.816 --> 00:25:46.745 Sam: Well, it goes back to when I was 20 and exploiting a boundary between 00:25:46.745 --> 00:25:51.155 the way the gender is constructed in through clothing and just having fun 00:25:51.155 --> 00:25:55.325 with that because it, look, it's, it's hard to explain if you haven't 00:25:55.325 --> 00:25:59.035 been out on the town in clothing, that's like, you know, theoretically 00:25:59.085 --> 00:26:01.138 not for you, I can't tell you. 00:26:01.763 --> 00:26:05.683 How liberating and illuminating it is and not every experience will be positive 00:26:05.683 --> 00:26:10.273 and that's kind of the point and you it's good and bad and it changes the way 00:26:10.273 --> 00:26:14.623 people treat you, it changes the way you think about yourself and it's very easy. 00:26:15.173 --> 00:26:17.803 Gender non binary is for everyone. 00:26:18.273 --> 00:26:22.283 I've come to realize like there are times when people are not being their gender. 00:26:22.693 --> 00:26:26.653 And that you are GNB at that time, like you are, like the act of being 00:26:26.653 --> 00:26:30.785 a man or a woman, it's work, like mentally, it's work, sartorially. 00:26:30.825 --> 00:26:33.685 There's all these things you have to do to maintain this identity, like 00:26:33.805 --> 00:26:35.745 using certain language and so on. 00:26:36.335 --> 00:26:39.750 And The same goes for sexuality and, you know, nationality 00:26:39.760 --> 00:26:40.520 and all these other things. 00:26:40.530 --> 00:26:43.510 They're all maintained through effort and through clothing and through language. 00:26:43.598 --> 00:26:46.285 And we've got a degree of choice in the matter. 00:26:46.725 --> 00:26:51.425 And not everyone has to, you know, actively embrace, like, In the 00:26:51.475 --> 00:26:54.255 public, a non binary personality, 00:26:54.255 --> 00:26:57.736 Joe: but getting back to the quote, what's the garbled message that the yoga pants 00:26:57.736 --> 00:26:59.653 are sending you about your future self? 00:26:59.653 --> 00:27:02.664 Sam: Instead of judging these people, which I didn't do for particularly 00:27:02.664 --> 00:27:05.675 long because it's like, Oh, well, this is clearly a universal 00:27:05.675 --> 00:27:09.234 phenomenon and it's not going away, so why bother being mad about it? 00:27:09.234 --> 00:27:11.697 Like I very quickly, I wasn't mad about it. 00:27:11.697 --> 00:27:16.077 I was just like puzzled, I think at first and like, I didn't really get it. 00:27:16.077 --> 00:27:18.541 But then I did start to feel like that. 00:27:18.541 --> 00:27:18.815 Yeah. 00:27:19.675 --> 00:27:21.035 What I would describe as envy. 00:27:21.035 --> 00:27:21.055 Yeah. 00:27:21.375 --> 00:27:22.045 And judgment. 00:27:22.097 --> 00:27:24.047 because for me, I never experienced that envy by itself. 00:27:24.077 --> 00:27:25.097 There's usually some judgment. 00:27:25.417 --> 00:27:26.617 Like, who do you think you are? 00:27:26.627 --> 00:27:27.837 And do you think you're better than me? 00:27:27.837 --> 00:27:29.567 Ali: Like you said, it came back to a dislike of that person. 00:27:29.577 --> 00:27:33.317 Like I perceived it as a dislike of that person, but it's not. 00:27:33.317 --> 00:27:35.497 Sam: No, it's not enough just to go, I want what they have. 00:27:35.737 --> 00:27:38.867 It's they're doing something wrong by having that. 00:27:38.957 --> 00:27:41.337 And, and I had to do a lot of therapy. 00:27:41.377 --> 00:27:43.237 Joe: So the garbled message about your future self? 00:27:43.267 --> 00:27:46.805 Sam: The garbled message is you don't feel free. 00:27:46.995 --> 00:27:47.425 Yes. 00:27:47.685 --> 00:27:50.715 And you perceive this person as having a freedom you don't 00:27:50.715 --> 00:27:52.335 possess and it's made you angry. 00:27:52.345 --> 00:27:52.805 Yes. 00:27:53.415 --> 00:27:53.995 All you've got to do is 00:27:54.255 --> 00:27:56.415 Joe: take that message from your future self, from someone who 00:27:56.415 --> 00:27:57.805 doesn't work and has a hobby farm. 00:27:58.075 --> 00:27:58.615 I mean, it could be. 00:27:58.715 --> 00:27:59.265 Ali: It's free. 00:27:59.265 --> 00:28:00.325 It's the exact same message. 00:28:00.325 --> 00:28:03.385 It's that there, there's a freedom there that I don't have. 00:28:03.615 --> 00:28:05.159 Joe: But the way to get that. 00:28:05.510 --> 00:28:08.290 The most logical thing would be to do everything you can to get 00:28:08.290 --> 00:28:12.050 the most high paying job you can, ASAP, and eventually get 00:28:12.050 --> 00:28:12.640 your hobby firm. 00:28:12.760 --> 00:28:13.720 Sam: I don't know, screw jobs. 00:28:13.730 --> 00:28:16.510 It's all about, owning the means of production, Joe. 00:28:16.620 --> 00:28:18.617 Like, just having something you can charge other people for being yourself. 00:28:18.617 --> 00:28:21.140 Joe: No, but I'm saying to Ali, in the Alain de Botton sense of getting a garbled 00:28:21.140 --> 00:28:23.050 message from these people, she's jealous. 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:24.130 She's envious. 00:28:24.140 --> 00:28:25.540 Sam: Well, maybe you don't need 100 acres. 00:28:25.540 --> 00:28:26.210 Maybe you only 00:28:26.210 --> 00:28:30.190 Ali: need Oh, like, I'd be happy with just You know, anything, but like, it's, 00:28:30.303 --> 00:28:33.413 yeah, like, I think it comes back to, yeah, like you said, a sense of freedom. 00:28:33.413 --> 00:28:37.153 There is a freedom that you're, for whatever reason, we're constrained 00:28:37.163 --> 00:28:39.873 by, whether it's something we're doing ourselves, the way we've 00:28:39.873 --> 00:28:41.363 been socialized, whatever it is. 00:28:41.403 --> 00:28:44.543 There is some sort of constriction that we're, yeah. 00:28:45.043 --> 00:28:45.343 Sounds 00:28:45.343 --> 00:28:47.003 Joe: like the problem's capitalism 00:28:47.413 --> 00:28:47.953 Sam: to a degree. 00:28:47.953 --> 00:28:48.983 Yeah, it's 00:28:48.983 --> 00:28:50.743 Ali: the way we're all socialized. 00:28:50.763 --> 00:28:51.943 Like, yeah, it's like, you know. 00:28:52.613 --> 00:28:56.223 Particularly, I mean, I think it is different now or it's certainly shifting, 00:28:56.383 --> 00:29:00.663 but you know, growing up in the eighties and nineties, there was sort of one way 00:29:00.663 --> 00:29:02.093 to be a little boy or a little girl. 00:29:02.453 --> 00:29:04.653 You would, you were going to be interested in these things. 00:29:04.653 --> 00:29:07.183 You were going to have these career options and then, you know, motherhood 00:29:07.183 --> 00:29:09.643 if you're a girl, you know, fatherhood if you're a boy, like all these things 00:29:09.653 --> 00:29:11.743 that were sort of expected of you. 00:29:11.813 --> 00:29:11.983 Oh. 00:29:11.983 --> 00:29:12.153 And 00:29:12.153 --> 00:29:13.193 Sam: working in an office. 00:29:13.253 --> 00:29:15.533 Ali: Working at, you know, working in an office that you would 00:29:15.533 --> 00:29:16.563 then, you know, buy your house. 00:29:16.563 --> 00:29:16.963 That's what success was. 00:29:16.963 --> 00:29:17.242 Yeah. 00:29:17.242 --> 00:29:17.522 Yeah. 00:29:17.522 --> 00:29:20.798 And you'd have your White picket fans and your kids and your dog 00:29:20.798 --> 00:29:22.358 Sam: and being white collar, then the white picket. 00:29:22.598 --> 00:29:22.898 Ali: Yeah. 00:29:22.898 --> 00:29:24.788 And you'd had it and you know, it was all sort of planned out. 00:29:24.788 --> 00:29:24.878 Mm-Hmm. 00:29:24.878 --> 00:29:28.118 And I think because one knows things are, are off, just not 00:29:28.118 --> 00:29:30.038 really even attainable anymore. 00:29:30.068 --> 00:29:30.278 No. 00:29:30.278 --> 00:29:32.588 In any way, shape or form for some people. 00:29:32.648 --> 00:29:36.188 Joe: Well, from, from the vast majority, you guys get way too dramatic and a 00:29:36.193 --> 00:29:38.858 Sam: lot of people have it and don't feel great anyway. 00:29:38.858 --> 00:29:39.098 Exactly. 00:29:39.098 --> 00:29:39.968 Yeah, that's true. 00:29:39.968 --> 00:29:43.328 Joe: The other part of the hellscape that we somehow live in in Australia 00:29:43.328 --> 00:29:44.198 is this nonsense, but there's a 00:29:44.198 --> 00:29:45.758 Ali: lot of, there's a full. 00:29:46.183 --> 00:29:49.543 A variety of reasons why they can't have those things, won't have those 00:29:49.853 --> 00:29:54.786 things, there is a shift to, yeah, like, and there is a shift of, I think, in a 00:29:54.786 --> 00:29:59.941 more accepting way of what It is to be, particularly around gender and sexuality 00:29:59.941 --> 00:30:01.221 that wasn't there when we were younger. 00:30:01.221 --> 00:30:01.521 That's right. 00:30:01.781 --> 00:30:03.551 Which is, you know, a good thing. 00:30:03.691 --> 00:30:04.281 I felt it was a 00:30:04.281 --> 00:30:05.891 Sam: limitation since I can remember. 00:30:06.301 --> 00:30:09.431 Joe: I think you're externalizing, as you said, you went to an elite 00:30:09.431 --> 00:30:11.181 private school and then the other women 00:30:11.181 --> 00:30:12.551 Sam: you went with Where femininity is highly 00:30:12.551 --> 00:30:13.111 Joe: constructed. 00:30:13.111 --> 00:30:13.131 Yeah. 00:30:13.131 --> 00:30:17.686 You had certain problems, whatever they were, whether it's bipolar or whatever. 00:30:17.686 --> 00:30:18.661 But it's not 00:30:18.661 --> 00:30:19.881 Sam: an atypical experience. 00:30:19.921 --> 00:30:20.251 No, no. 00:30:20.831 --> 00:30:20.891 Joe: Yeah. 00:30:20.891 --> 00:30:25.701 But Ali's projecting and externalizing your lack of a career success 00:30:25.721 --> 00:30:28.731 when all these contemporaries have all the stuff you just mentioned. 00:30:28.761 --> 00:30:30.521 They have financial freedom. 00:30:30.551 --> 00:30:31.321 She actually doesn't want it. 00:30:31.521 --> 00:30:32.259 Sam: She actually doesn't want career success. 00:30:32.259 --> 00:30:33.036 You're not listening, 00:30:33.036 --> 00:30:33.295 Ali: Joe. 00:30:33.295 --> 00:30:34.331 Career success is not, 00:30:34.331 --> 00:30:34.641 Sam: it's not. 00:30:34.651 --> 00:30:35.341 She doesn't want it. 00:30:35.341 --> 00:30:35.861 No, 00:30:35.861 --> 00:30:39.521 Joe: no, but, but you, but then you turn around and say, and people 00:30:39.521 --> 00:30:40.881 just can't get that these days. 00:30:40.881 --> 00:30:42.081 It's not true about people. 00:30:42.101 --> 00:30:43.521 Sam: Oh, that was, that was a throwaway remark. 00:30:44.091 --> 00:30:44.271 Ali: It 00:30:44.881 --> 00:30:48.681 Joe: is, housing is more expensive, but it's not true that Australia 00:30:48.781 --> 00:30:51.501 is this, because like I said before, I'm completely broke. 00:30:51.896 --> 00:30:55.366 And I also have basically not a very functioning career, so I'm not 00:30:55.386 --> 00:30:59.956 saying this isn't, but I don't then project that onto Australia and 00:30:59.956 --> 00:31:02.006 say, Australia isn't functioning. 00:31:02.136 --> 00:31:04.026 Well, no, I'm not functioning very well. 00:31:04.666 --> 00:31:07.166 I don't know how much that's because I have a mental illness. 00:31:07.226 --> 00:31:07.726 I don't know. 00:31:07.726 --> 00:31:09.956 I don't have the thing. 00:31:09.966 --> 00:31:11.746 Sam: Blame yourself for not being good. 00:31:11.746 --> 00:31:13.636 Ali: That's good stuff. 00:31:13.636 --> 00:31:14.361 Very healthy. 00:31:14.361 --> 00:31:15.301 It is 00:31:15.301 --> 00:31:15.771 Joe: healthier. 00:31:15.771 --> 00:31:18.591 No more blames into oneself, Joe, 00:31:18.591 --> 00:31:20.881 Ali: healthier than, it is healthier than blaming. 00:31:20.881 --> 00:31:23.871 The statistics of it, like three times what was it, your average income, and now 00:31:23.981 --> 00:31:25.631 it's ten times, it's just not the same. 00:31:26.391 --> 00:31:27.621 Joe: It's crazy to say otherwise. 00:31:29.021 --> 00:31:30.301 Sam: You're a facts guy, you're a Michael. 00:31:30.301 --> 00:31:31.431 Let's look at the graphs. 00:31:31.431 --> 00:31:31.501 But 00:31:31.531 --> 00:31:34.291 Joe: that's the facts, that apart from house prices. 00:31:34.906 --> 00:31:35.236 If you 00:31:35.236 --> 00:31:37.096 Ali: didn't have, oh, and wages not keeping up. 00:31:37.096 --> 00:31:38.702 Well, I look around at, wait a, wait a minute. 00:31:38.707 --> 00:31:40.456 Joe: I look around at my contemporaries, 00:31:40.456 --> 00:31:42.196 Sam: apart from all the things that have gone backwards. 00:31:42.196 --> 00:31:42.676 Joe: Yeah, everything's great. 00:31:42.676 --> 00:31:46.436 When I look around at my contemporaries, yeah, they are all 00:31:46.436 --> 00:31:47.936 on over a hundred grand a year. 00:31:47.966 --> 00:31:49.556 They've all been able to buy their million dollar 00:31:49.556 --> 00:31:50.216 Ali: giving a Gen X. 00:31:50.576 --> 00:31:50.861 We're talking about like. 00:31:53.221 --> 00:31:53.421 I'm 00:31:53.421 --> 00:31:53.941 Joe: really not. 00:31:54.681 --> 00:31:57.971 And it's, and it's, it wouldn't matter, except it's actually holding you back. 00:31:58.281 --> 00:31:59.361 Because it's so revealing. 00:31:59.381 --> 00:32:01.421 You're giving yourself a free pass on this. 00:32:01.611 --> 00:32:02.631 Oh well, the system's fucked. 00:32:02.791 --> 00:32:06.951 Sam: It's so revealing that you keep focusing on salaries and wages. 00:32:07.251 --> 00:32:07.901 Like, if. 00:32:08.276 --> 00:32:13.136 If you have to go to our place, or you don't get money, and then there's a 00:32:13.136 --> 00:32:17.256 problem, you are not doesn't matter how big that salary is, you're in a trap. 00:32:17.346 --> 00:32:18.086 You have a problem. 00:32:18.836 --> 00:32:22.211 You could be 300 a year, by the way, the tax on that is massive. 00:32:22.211 --> 00:32:25.316 Joe: I just get frustrated with this lazy, like, everything's fucked, therefore, 00:32:25.316 --> 00:32:27.056 I'll just stay in a dead end job. 00:32:27.066 --> 00:32:29.006 No, no, that's not that's absolutely 00:32:29.346 --> 00:32:30.016 Sam: That's the point, no. 00:32:30.026 --> 00:32:31.536 We're trying to listen to the envy and see 00:32:31.536 --> 00:32:32.096 Joe: where it points. 00:32:32.416 --> 00:32:36.406 This is why it's so crucial to this topic is actually, you could look 00:32:36.406 --> 00:32:39.546 around probably your social media and find 30 contemporaries you went to 00:32:39.546 --> 00:32:42.286 high school with, they're all more successful career wise than you. 00:32:42.576 --> 00:32:47.196 And they don't, and this dream of freedom of a hobby farm isn't, 00:32:47.246 --> 00:32:48.556 is, is within reach for them. 00:32:48.556 --> 00:32:50.066 But you 00:32:50.066 --> 00:32:52.476 Sam: don't, it's not, it's not arising from comparing yourself 00:32:52.476 --> 00:32:52.865 with your contemporaries. 00:32:52.865 --> 00:32:53.862 I was going to 00:32:53.862 --> 00:32:57.186 Ali: say, a lot of my contemporaries are not in that position that they 00:32:57.186 --> 00:32:59.456 could go and have a hobby farm anyway. 00:32:59.466 --> 00:33:00.116 Like a lot of them. 00:33:00.491 --> 00:33:03.351 Like the reality is, well, yeah, they've got divorces at this age, 00:33:03.351 --> 00:33:04.901 they're, they're, they're renting again. 00:33:04.901 --> 00:33:06.621 Then you have to move back in with their parents. 00:33:06.631 --> 00:33:08.821 Sam: If anything, the comparison with your peers is comforting 00:33:08.821 --> 00:33:09.241 Ali: to a degree. 00:33:09.241 --> 00:33:09.941 Yeah, exactly. 00:33:09.941 --> 00:33:12.251 Like it's not, everybody is doing great. 00:33:12.251 --> 00:33:15.551 I mean, there were obviously a couple of exceptions to that rule, but I'd say the 00:33:15.551 --> 00:33:20.306 vast majority of people, like, it's not what we, we were sold this idea of what. 00:33:20.446 --> 00:33:23.736 would happen if we achieve these things in high school, which absolutely 00:33:23.736 --> 00:33:27.236 has not panned out I'd say for the majority of people, for me and younger, 00:33:27.776 --> 00:33:29.366 and particularly the younger ones. 00:33:29.376 --> 00:33:29.716 And look, 00:33:29.716 --> 00:33:31.106 Sam: come on, there's loads of people in their forties that 00:33:31.106 --> 00:33:32.316 hasn't worked out that way too. 00:33:32.336 --> 00:33:32.506 Yeah. 00:33:32.506 --> 00:33:33.186 Or if it has, it 00:33:33.196 --> 00:33:34.886 Ali: has to a point. 00:33:34.906 --> 00:33:38.056 And then yes, I'm like a large life event, like illness or divorce or 00:33:38.316 --> 00:33:40.506 something like that has completely pulled the rug from under them. 00:33:40.666 --> 00:33:41.886 So they're back to square one. 00:33:41.896 --> 00:33:42.496 Sam: Back to square one. 00:33:42.796 --> 00:33:45.456 And, and look also all the discussion of like. 00:33:45.906 --> 00:33:50.596 Pay and like house ownership is like, to me, that is a complete sideshow. 00:33:50.856 --> 00:33:55.946 The one graph you need, it's a pie chart of the wealth distribution, 00:33:56.166 --> 00:33:58.176 not the income distribution. 00:33:58.376 --> 00:34:01.806 The wealth distribution in Australia today and in 1990. 00:34:01.986 --> 00:34:03.896 It is very, very stark. 00:34:04.146 --> 00:34:07.736 It's obvious that things are not going to be the same. 00:34:08.891 --> 00:34:12.501 Once you realize like the underlying structure of the economy where that's at 00:34:12.871 --> 00:34:17.661 all this other discussion of salaries and stuff It's a sideshow because basically 00:34:17.661 --> 00:34:18.901 Joe: doesn't change the fund what 00:34:18.931 --> 00:34:21.191 Sam: that graph shows is the middle class has disappeared 00:34:21.261 --> 00:34:24.941 Joe: It doesn't change what I'm saying to Ali though, which is that 00:34:25.206 --> 00:34:28.566 If your dream is financial freedom, and that's what Envy is teaching you, 00:34:28.566 --> 00:34:29.786 it sounds like what you're saying. 00:34:29.816 --> 00:34:29.886 I 00:34:29.886 --> 00:34:30.696 Sam: know, it's purer than that. 00:34:30.696 --> 00:34:31.766 I think it's freedom itself. 00:34:31.906 --> 00:34:32.836 It's freedom from work. 00:34:32.856 --> 00:34:36.866 Joe: Then even a job that paid you 10, 000 a year more would no, freedom 00:34:37.036 --> 00:34:38.166 Sam: from selling your labour. 00:34:38.196 --> 00:34:39.676 Well, yes, yes, freedom from selling my 00:34:39.676 --> 00:34:39.816 Joe: labour. 00:34:39.926 --> 00:34:41.366 It would be worth making a change. 00:34:41.386 --> 00:34:43.562 But instead you want to de alienate your label. 00:34:43.562 --> 00:34:46.916 Oh no, since I was raised, the system's now broken and there 00:34:46.916 --> 00:34:47.606 is no other opportunities. 00:34:47.606 --> 00:34:49.006 Oh, my position is 00:34:49.006 --> 00:34:51.323 Sam: No, I'm not saying I'm going to completely The system was broken already. 00:34:51.323 --> 00:34:51.533 Yeah, 00:34:51.533 --> 00:34:53.286 Joe: I'm not saying It's learned helplessness. 00:34:53.306 --> 00:34:53.556 Ali: No, 00:34:53.676 --> 00:34:54.716 Joe: I completely disagree. 00:34:54.716 --> 00:34:57.886 And you're an incredibly capable person, so you could definitely have a better job. 00:34:57.956 --> 00:34:58.186 Okay, 00:34:58.186 --> 00:34:58.666 Sam: well, hold on. 00:34:58.686 --> 00:35:00.026 I will agree with Joe to an extent. 00:35:00.046 --> 00:35:02.276 I'll ask the question more pointedly. 00:35:02.866 --> 00:35:04.946 We're not talking about your contemporaries, we're talking about 00:35:04.946 --> 00:35:09.286 people on social media who've achieved a certain level of off gridness or whatever. 00:35:09.856 --> 00:35:12.696 What is the useful message for Ali today? 00:35:12.826 --> 00:35:14.796 What is the useful but garbled message? 00:35:14.796 --> 00:35:18.736 Like the long term aspiration is quite literal, but like what's 00:35:18.746 --> 00:35:20.066 in between here and there? 00:35:20.506 --> 00:35:23.486 And not just in terms of goal setting, but like, what is that telling you 00:35:23.486 --> 00:35:28.078 about your underlying values short of having a small permaculture situation? 00:35:28.208 --> 00:35:28.708 Well, yeah, 00:35:28.718 --> 00:35:30.128 Ali: it's about, I suppose. 00:35:30.361 --> 00:35:37.664 The small steps I can take to fill that need and yeah, like there are certain 00:35:37.664 --> 00:35:41.464 things that I have historically done, which are like, I described in a previous 00:35:41.464 --> 00:35:44.674 episode that I've obviously struggled with because of the lack of energy. 00:35:44.764 --> 00:35:46.314 So there's a frustration there. 00:35:46.354 --> 00:35:48.114 So there's an envy there because of that. 00:35:48.114 --> 00:35:51.454 Like why don't I have the, who have this, yeah, or capacity 00:35:51.454 --> 00:35:52.914 to do things that I can't do. 00:35:52.954 --> 00:35:53.674 Like it's like. 00:35:54.034 --> 00:35:58.214 Even like at the moment, I can't, like, you know, obviously, you know, I've got 00:35:58.714 --> 00:36:03.014 the shit back, things that I can't do, and it's not a sense of helplessness, I cannot 00:36:03.054 --> 00:36:04.634 go for the hike that I want to go for. 00:36:04.664 --> 00:36:06.809 Sam: Yeah, it's true. 00:36:06.809 --> 00:36:08.214 Ali: Not at the moment. 00:36:08.224 --> 00:36:08.834 Not at the moment. 00:36:08.834 --> 00:36:12.344 It's just not, you know, so there is an envy for somebody for doing, 00:36:12.344 --> 00:36:15.084 for people doing those things that I simply cannot do right now. 00:36:15.144 --> 00:36:18.794 It's not to say that it's forever, but yeah, so like, so with these people, 00:36:18.794 --> 00:36:21.244 with these, you know, permaculture setups, it's not to say that. 00:36:21.799 --> 00:36:26.217 I might not get to a place where, you know, there, I could actually have that 00:36:26.217 --> 00:36:30.359 or work towards that, but right now I'm, I'm envious of it because I don't have it. 00:36:30.359 --> 00:36:33.659 I had, like Sam said, I have to sell my labor to a job I don't particularly 00:36:33.659 --> 00:36:35.769 like, you know, for not enough money. 00:36:35.779 --> 00:36:37.699 And you don't feel like you're being especially effective in it? 00:36:38.029 --> 00:36:39.249 No, yeah, it's just, it's just, it's, you know. 00:36:39.389 --> 00:36:43.589 Joe: What I'm saying is the only useful, the only useful thing you can actually 00:36:43.589 --> 00:36:45.839 do with this envy is get a better job. 00:36:46.439 --> 00:36:47.189 Sam: I don't agree. 00:36:47.259 --> 00:36:47.599 I think that 00:36:47.609 --> 00:36:48.769 Joe: And you're capable of it. 00:36:49.999 --> 00:36:55.549 But you don't, you never shift on that, which is about 18 months or something. 00:36:55.699 --> 00:36:56.299 I agree. 00:36:56.599 --> 00:36:59.599 You say the job's dead end, the job doesn't pay well, and then 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:02.219 you don't change anything and you say, ah, the system, man. 00:37:02.229 --> 00:37:04.719 Sam: She has untapped, she has untapped career potential, but I don't 00:37:04.739 --> 00:37:06.289 know if that's really what this is. 00:37:06.339 --> 00:37:07.529 Ali: No, it's bigger than that. 00:37:07.539 --> 00:37:11.259 Like, I mean, I could be in a slightly better paying job, which 00:37:11.259 --> 00:37:14.099 is a slightly more interesting, but it's still, I don't feel like 00:37:14.099 --> 00:37:15.669 that's actually the means to the end. 00:37:15.669 --> 00:37:19.624 It's not going Not the, the huge lottery win that I would, 00:37:19.724 --> 00:37:20.904 you know, potentially need. 00:37:21.094 --> 00:37:23.724 Joe: And that's the other useful thing you could do is just buy a 00:37:23.724 --> 00:37:26.334 lottery ticket each week with the money you're saving from not smoking. 00:37:26.444 --> 00:37:26.664 No, no. 00:37:26.665 --> 00:37:27.564 But you, well, that's true. 00:37:28.114 --> 00:37:29.044 It's better than doing nothing. 00:37:29.084 --> 00:37:32.314 What I'm saying is don't do nothing and say the system, man. 00:37:32.494 --> 00:37:34.314 Ali: No, but I'm not saying, I'm not saying that at all. 00:37:34.334 --> 00:37:35.094 Sam: Like that's, that's not. 00:37:35.104 --> 00:37:36.604 Well, you did a medication review recently. 00:37:36.604 --> 00:37:37.334 That's doing something. 00:37:37.344 --> 00:37:37.624 Yeah. 00:37:37.624 --> 00:37:37.824 Yeah. 00:37:37.824 --> 00:37:40.354 Ali: There's certainly things like small things I'm doing. 00:37:40.354 --> 00:37:40.674 Well, yeah. 00:37:40.674 --> 00:37:41.704 Like I feel like, yeah. 00:37:41.744 --> 00:37:42.164 The. 00:37:42.554 --> 00:37:46.264 The quitting smoking, like I said, is financially driven, yeah, like 00:37:46.264 --> 00:37:47.804 it's, it's financially driven. 00:37:47.804 --> 00:37:51.244 And so, yeah, there, there are other ways that I'm, you know, wanting to spend 00:37:51.244 --> 00:37:55.034 my money or put towards or like long term plans as well as immediate ones. 00:37:55.034 --> 00:37:56.934 And so there are things I am doing. 00:37:56.934 --> 00:37:58.314 I'm not saying I'm completely hopeless. 00:37:58.314 --> 00:38:00.414 Joe: I just think it's, I just think it's a really clear one. 00:38:00.494 --> 00:38:01.004 It's good. 00:38:01.044 --> 00:38:02.584 Like, you know, like Sam's got a clear one. 00:38:02.784 --> 00:38:07.074 He still wants more freedom around gender and how he, how he 00:38:07.074 --> 00:38:08.334 presents himself to the world. 00:38:08.334 --> 00:38:12.594 And yeah, he wants maybe Tap back into freedom he's had before in that area. 00:38:12.594 --> 00:38:13.034 Yes. 00:38:13.094 --> 00:38:13.744 That's awesome. 00:38:13.774 --> 00:38:15.734 In your case, it's very clear as well. 00:38:15.764 --> 00:38:17.864 Like, you want even more freedom. 00:38:17.864 --> 00:38:20.774 You want freedom from wage slavery. 00:38:21.224 --> 00:38:21.684 Awesome. 00:38:21.684 --> 00:38:21.884 Alright. 00:38:22.264 --> 00:38:24.314 Well, that's a garbled message from your future self to 00:38:24.314 --> 00:38:25.434 fucking do something about it. 00:38:25.454 --> 00:38:28.834 And yeah, I'm not, I'm not saying, I'm saying even buying a lottery 00:38:28.834 --> 00:38:31.404 ticket is doing something about it. 00:38:31.405 --> 00:38:31.733 I agree. 00:38:31.733 --> 00:38:32.774 Do you know what I mean? 00:38:33.254 --> 00:38:36.699 And what Alain de Botton is trying to say is Do something about it. 00:38:36.709 --> 00:38:36.939 Yeah, well he's 00:38:36.939 --> 00:38:39.999 Sam: saying study it and find something that's useful and 00:38:39.999 --> 00:38:41.259 Joe: actionable. 00:38:41.260 --> 00:38:42.173 Which I think is a good segue to mine. 00:38:42.173 --> 00:38:42.275 Because 00:38:42.275 --> 00:38:43.529 Sam: mine is Well, I have one last question. 00:38:43.549 --> 00:38:43.829 Yeah. 00:38:43.869 --> 00:38:47.449 Is there something that's much, like, smaller and that is like 00:38:47.449 --> 00:38:52.199 a direct expression of like this Because it's not just about having 00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:53.989 the spread and like the permacolor. 00:38:54.289 --> 00:38:57.304 I think There's something about it, like when you were making sourdough and 00:38:57.304 --> 00:39:00.884 stuff earlier, it's a feeling of self reliance and like a feeling of, um, 00:39:01.414 --> 00:39:06.124 productivity and usefulness and like being able to, through your own effort, 00:39:06.294 --> 00:39:08.564 produce something of value that is yours. 00:39:08.644 --> 00:39:08.964 Yes. 00:39:09.104 --> 00:39:11.424 And wage labour is not that. 00:39:11.484 --> 00:39:11.844 Yeah. 00:39:11.914 --> 00:39:13.114 Not at all, in my experience. 00:39:13.534 --> 00:39:13.954 It's not at all. 00:39:13.954 --> 00:39:16.984 It's, that's why Mark said workers are alienated from their labor. 00:39:16.984 --> 00:39:17.044 Yeah. 00:39:17.044 --> 00:39:19.504 And ultimately from themselves as Yeah, totally agree with that. 00:39:19.564 --> 00:39:19.924 Yeah. 00:39:20.044 --> 00:39:20.764 Yeah, absolutely. 00:39:20.769 --> 00:39:22.534 So could you grow tomatoes or something? 00:39:22.534 --> 00:39:24.244 Is what I'm saying, like, well, that, that was always, 00:39:24.244 --> 00:39:26.434 Ali: I mean, you know, I could, I mean, a WG needs nourishing. 00:39:26.434 --> 00:39:26.494 Yeah. 00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:28.054 I absolutely could. 00:39:28.054 --> 00:39:28.774 And I should. 00:39:28.779 --> 00:39:30.799 And like I said, I historically, no shoulds. 00:39:30.799 --> 00:39:32.464 No shoulds, you know, I, 00:39:32.674 --> 00:39:32.734 Sam: yeah. 00:39:32.734 --> 00:39:34.204 I'm wondering if there's an actionable plan we can 00:39:34.204 --> 00:39:34.294 Ali: make. 00:39:34.294 --> 00:39:35.944 Yeah, there was, there was definitely things, like I said, 00:39:35.944 --> 00:39:39.399 I was doing, but you know, for a variety of reasons that it's been. 00:39:40.299 --> 00:39:40.699 You've cut 00:39:40.699 --> 00:39:42.029 Sam: back, you've been in survival 00:39:42.029 --> 00:39:43.199 Ali: mode for a 00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:44.209 Joe: little while. 00:39:44.209 --> 00:39:47.639 So all I'm saying is, I'm sorry that you can't go for a bushwalk and I accept 00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:49.489 that you can't with your fucked back. 00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:50.149 That does suck. 00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:52.964 But you can Put in a job application. 00:39:52.974 --> 00:39:55.114 You can buy a lottery ticket. 00:39:55.584 --> 00:39:58.304 So I'm not saying walk out of here and do what I say. 00:39:58.304 --> 00:40:02.744 I'm saying what the quote's asking us to do is investigate. 00:40:03.324 --> 00:40:07.194 If I say something on Instagram and it fucking bugs me how envious I am. 00:40:07.234 --> 00:40:07.384 Yeah, 00:40:07.384 --> 00:40:08.994 Sam: I don't, I don't, I won't say this. 00:40:09.219 --> 00:40:11.129 I don't get mad at influencers anymore. 00:40:11.339 --> 00:40:12.139 Now I go, 00:40:12.739 --> 00:40:13.099 Joe: I don't see it. 00:40:13.099 --> 00:40:14.069 I mean, I don't say 00:40:14.799 --> 00:40:18.439 Sam: I only, I only see ones that are either saying something useful or doing 00:40:18.439 --> 00:40:22.101 something useful or they're dancing or entertaining me or something. 00:40:22.101 --> 00:40:25.339 And now instead of being cross with them now, I'm just like, that's awesome. 00:40:25.959 --> 00:40:26.974 Ali: Yeah, I'm, I'm not, I 00:40:26.974 --> 00:40:28.709 Sam: don't, I don't actually, that, that part is great. 00:40:28.709 --> 00:40:32.679 And when I see someone with the farm though, Hmm, that does very 00:40:32.689 --> 00:40:34.179 slightly annoy me, I must admit. 00:40:35.139 --> 00:40:37.039 Ali: There's an annoyance that I'm just, I'm not there yet. 00:40:37.219 --> 00:40:38.659 It's not an annoyance at that person. 00:40:38.659 --> 00:40:39.889 I'm like really happy for them. 00:40:39.899 --> 00:40:41.109 They seem super smug and stuff. 00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:41.449 Yeah. 00:40:41.739 --> 00:40:43.339 Like I'm like, I've, you know, good for them. 00:40:43.349 --> 00:40:47.689 Like I don't feel, you know, it's, it's, but it's, it's for myself that 00:40:47.689 --> 00:40:50.619 I'm, I'm crossed with myself or like there's a frustration with myself. 00:40:51.074 --> 00:40:52.214 at that other person anymore. 00:40:52.224 --> 00:40:54.014 Like, whereas that, I think that's 00:40:54.754 --> 00:40:59.004 Joe: perhaps maybe envy about a previous version of yourself where you had a 00:40:59.004 --> 00:41:03.394 farm in the backyard and you had Nigella writing to you about your backyard farm. 00:41:04.114 --> 00:41:07.934 So you, I mean, that's another thing you can do is like, 00:41:08.144 --> 00:41:09.674 what was happening back then? 00:41:09.674 --> 00:41:10.474 What's happening back then? 00:41:10.474 --> 00:41:15.044 Meds wise, what's happening physically, like relationship wise, what can I 00:41:15.044 --> 00:41:18.584 recreate to get to the point where my backyard looks like a farm again? 00:41:18.869 --> 00:41:22.499 So, that's actually, apart from the physical side of the gardening, 00:41:22.509 --> 00:41:26.249 fairly actionable, but I don't know if you can be envious of 00:41:26.249 --> 00:41:27.039 your previous self, I'm not sure. 00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:27.246 Yeah, no, 00:41:27.246 --> 00:41:31.489 Ali: I definitely, like I said, I've sort of grieved and mourned the loss of that 00:41:31.509 --> 00:41:35.589 imagined life, or that life that I was living, like it was very much a thing I 00:41:35.589 --> 00:41:42.379 had to You know, move through and, you know, and, and try and, yeah, reimagine 00:41:42.379 --> 00:41:43.629 of what it's going to look like now. 00:41:43.629 --> 00:41:46.259 And then there's, yeah, there's obviously been some physical and 00:41:46.289 --> 00:41:48.919 mental health challenges in the last couple of years that have really 00:41:48.919 --> 00:41:54.279 just, that's had to be the focus rather than the, the extra stuff. 00:41:54.309 --> 00:41:57.199 And like, and I'm just, yeah, it's, it's an envy of like, why do I have 00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:00.949 to keep thinking about like, yeah, whether it's meds or therapy or, you 00:42:00.949 --> 00:42:03.469 know, all the, you know, going to a doctor's appointment and all that sort 00:42:03.469 --> 00:42:06.209 of shit and prioritizing that shit when I could have been, you know, like. 00:42:06.469 --> 00:42:09.429 Yeah, I had the weekend to do the thing that I actually wanted to do, it 00:42:09.489 --> 00:42:11.089 was like go for a bushwalk and make a 00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:12.079 Sam: sourdough. 00:42:12.080 --> 00:42:19.169 And when we're full time, like, full time, uh, well, between parenting, wage 00:42:19.169 --> 00:42:23.104 work, and Taking care of your mental health, it feels like, oh, God's, 00:42:23.164 --> 00:42:23.344 Ali: yeah. 00:42:23.614 --> 00:42:24.934 It doesn't feel like there's a lot left in the tank. 00:42:24.934 --> 00:42:25.504 That's everything. 00:42:25.509 --> 00:42:25.679 Yeah. 00:42:25.834 --> 00:42:26.014 Sam: Yeah. 00:42:26.014 --> 00:42:28.079 That's ev and that's, oh, and then maintaining the house for God's sake. 00:42:28.084 --> 00:42:28.444 Yeah, exactly. 00:42:28.444 --> 00:42:28.564 Joe: Yeah. 00:42:28.564 --> 00:42:30.874 And having some sort of, so, Sam, can I move on to mine or you look 00:42:30.874 --> 00:42:31.504 like you're gonna read through. 00:42:31.504 --> 00:42:31.744 I was just 00:42:31.744 --> 00:42:33.484 Sam: gonna read one line in the quote again. 00:42:33.664 --> 00:42:37.294 Listening to Envy should help us to take painful yet necessary steps 00:42:37.294 --> 00:42:38.644 towards becoming who we really are. 00:42:38.674 --> 00:42:40.114 This is actually beyond aspiration. 00:42:40.144 --> 00:42:41.794 It's like this is telling us. 00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:45.769 It's actually giving us urgent information about our wellbeing and 00:42:45.769 --> 00:42:47.419 like, it's like, okay, something's off. 00:42:47.419 --> 00:42:49.309 It's not just like, Oh, one day I'll have a farm. 00:42:49.349 --> 00:42:50.999 It's an, Oh, great. 00:42:50.999 --> 00:42:53.189 Instead of being envious of that person, I now admire 00:42:53.189 --> 00:42:54.509 their, their, their achievement. 00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:58.619 That's a great step, but painful yet necessary steps. 00:42:58.629 --> 00:42:59.591 So that sounds more like. 00:42:59.608 --> 00:43:03.038 That kind of fundamental work we've been talking about of, of yeah, 00:43:03.068 --> 00:43:06.167 confronting, going and getting the diagnosis that's necessary, you know, 00:43:06.167 --> 00:43:10.554 and doing, doing the hard stuff that we've been avoiding, Anyway, yours. 00:43:10.574 --> 00:43:12.804 Joe: I've been trying to throw it to myself for 20 minutes. 00:43:13.094 --> 00:43:14.224 I'll let you do it now. 00:43:14.744 --> 00:43:18.654 When I was in my 20s, I had a contemporary who was going to 00:43:18.654 --> 00:43:20.014 the same parties and stuff. 00:43:20.024 --> 00:43:20.964 Someone McKenzie. 00:43:21.374 --> 00:43:26.594 Yeah, Nick McKenzie turned out to be the most decorated investigative journalist. 00:43:27.104 --> 00:43:28.084 in Australia. 00:43:28.094 --> 00:43:28.834 Oh, that sucks. 00:43:28.976 --> 00:43:33.033 And it was not envy as far as I knew in my 20s. 00:43:33.033 --> 00:43:34.133 It's only in hindsight. 00:43:34.133 --> 00:43:36.703 It's like, well, why did I have so much resentment towards this guy? 00:43:36.763 --> 00:43:37.383 Oh, now you know. 00:43:37.543 --> 00:43:42.633 And there was a time when I was making a union film on one side and he was getting, 00:43:42.643 --> 00:43:44.373 he was printing stories in the 80s. 00:43:44.433 --> 00:43:49.693 Based on the anti union drops from the anti union police guy. 00:43:50.703 --> 00:43:53.903 He was, he was printing stuff in the age that was anti union. 00:43:54.873 --> 00:43:57.503 And I was making a pro union film. 00:43:57.573 --> 00:43:58.523 So there's a very clear reason to be enemies. 00:43:58.523 --> 00:44:01.693 And I remember one time we run into each other in a bar and argued about 00:44:01.703 --> 00:44:08.583 this guy, Nigel Hadgkiss, who was Whatever, former cop who is now 00:44:08.583 --> 00:44:11.841 running the anti union, police force that the Howard government set up. 00:44:11.921 --> 00:44:12.241 Yeah. 00:44:12.481 --> 00:44:16.841 And we had this, you know, whiskey fueled argument about him and what 00:44:16.841 --> 00:44:21.294 it all meant and, you know, like, but I just never had So many things 00:44:21.294 --> 00:44:24.764 that that person had, you know, like I never had his level of ambition. 00:44:24.934 --> 00:44:26.664 I'm sure I wasn't as smart as him. 00:44:26.804 --> 00:44:27.874 He's on the other side of this wall. 00:44:27.884 --> 00:44:32.664 My experience was that film came out, 600 people saw it at Acme or whatever it was. 00:44:32.674 --> 00:44:33.374 Huge achievement. 00:44:33.484 --> 00:44:37.704 And then my ambition just died off and I went and started working in film crews. 00:44:37.804 --> 00:44:38.674 Whereas his continued. 00:44:38.694 --> 00:44:45.794 His, his He's unabated and has taken him to the absolute peak of his trade, 00:44:45.949 --> 00:44:52.594 with fame, wealth, you know, but there was a point where we were both in bar 00:44:52.594 --> 00:44:58.434 open and having an argument, almost as equals, not equals, never equals. 00:44:58.494 --> 00:45:01.324 I mean, by the time I was even resenting this guy, he was 00:45:01.324 --> 00:45:02.964 already incredibly successful. 00:45:03.454 --> 00:45:06.824 It's just that his rise was exponential and never stopped. 00:45:07.569 --> 00:45:13.689 And the heights of my intellectual output was making that one documentary and 00:45:13.689 --> 00:45:17.379 then kind of just moving on and doing no brainer jobs in the film industry. 00:45:18.209 --> 00:45:22.749 Cut to like 20 years later or 15 years later, that's all I've done. 00:45:23.489 --> 00:45:28.499 So, it wasn't until we did this project and I was able to sit down with you 00:45:28.499 --> 00:45:31.119 guys and actually use my brain again. 00:45:31.919 --> 00:45:36.629 And suddenly a whole bunch of my thoughts And it all just came out, and stuff that 00:45:36.629 --> 00:45:40.879 had been on my mind, and stuff I was really interested in, and people wrote in, 00:45:40.879 --> 00:45:45.989 and they were listening, and, and it all just was like this huge sigh of relief. 00:45:46.099 --> 00:45:46.379 Yeah. 00:45:46.578 --> 00:45:49.548 and you know, I saw Nick McKenzie on, uh, friends Facebook page. 00:45:50.008 --> 00:45:53.128 Sorry, yesterday I was having a nice time down the beach and it's gone. 00:45:53.418 --> 00:45:56.788 They're resentment's gone, but it was very fierce. 00:45:56.818 --> 00:46:02.378 And So the envy in that case was trying to tell me that I had a 00:46:02.378 --> 00:46:04.968 brain and I needed to use it. 00:46:05.048 --> 00:46:05.388 Yeah. 00:46:05.584 --> 00:46:08.224 but in hindsight like And that 00:46:08.224 --> 00:46:10.744 Sam: you want to seek a degree of profile, and that's okay. 00:46:10.754 --> 00:46:11.014 Yeah. 00:46:11.054 --> 00:46:13.134 Ali: Like, I was going to say like a lot of that is. 00:46:13.949 --> 00:46:18.289 External validation and adoration, and things that I think Which clearly 00:46:18.289 --> 00:46:20.599 Sam: isn't enough to sate his appetite for more. 00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:21.109 Yeah. 00:46:21.159 --> 00:46:22.079 Or isn't the reason he's doing 00:46:22.349 --> 00:46:22.979 Joe: it possibly. 00:46:22.989 --> 00:46:26.764 Yeah, and the extent that I get it is It's to post something on Instagram 00:46:26.764 --> 00:46:28.434 or Facebook and have people like it. 00:46:28.924 --> 00:46:32.644 Like, so I still do that and I still want external validation. 00:46:32.954 --> 00:46:37.034 But I've done a shit ton of internal work in the 8 years I haven't been drinking. 00:46:37.034 --> 00:46:37.794 And it's made a difference. 00:46:38.354 --> 00:46:39.444 It's made a difference too. 00:46:39.824 --> 00:46:45.094 Like, I now know, looking at Nick McKenzie, the human being, that He, I 00:46:45.094 --> 00:46:49.584 mean, some of the stuff he's done has been, like, put him in danger, and, he's 00:46:49.584 --> 00:46:53.857 done, he's not a perfect human, and I'm sure there's times where he's unhappy or 00:46:53.887 --> 00:47:00.042 unsatisfied or it hasn't Being wealthy and famous and, looked up to hasn't probably 00:47:00.042 --> 00:47:01.982 solved every emotional problem that 00:47:02.062 --> 00:47:02.392 Sam: he's ever had. 00:47:02.392 --> 00:47:04.772 Well, and a lot of journos are very miserable anyway, even 00:47:04.772 --> 00:47:05.442 Joe: the successful ones. 00:47:05.442 --> 00:47:09.432 And that's the complexity that you only get, I think, as you get older, is 00:47:09.432 --> 00:47:13.186 like, not to say that it's not better to be successful than not, because I 00:47:13.196 --> 00:47:15.816 think, I'm sure it is, but it's not. 00:47:16.696 --> 00:47:17.786 10 times better. 00:47:17.946 --> 00:47:18.236 Sam: No. 00:47:18.266 --> 00:47:18.606 No. 00:47:18.656 --> 00:47:18.966 Agreed. 00:47:19.356 --> 00:47:23.146 Ali: And, and, and like you said, success actually comes with it's a whole new 00:47:23.156 --> 00:47:27.586 set of issues that you wouldn't have had otherwise, like, you know, whether 00:47:27.586 --> 00:47:31.096 that's financial success or professional success or whatever it is, like, then 00:47:31.096 --> 00:47:32.676 there are issues with that as well. 00:47:32.806 --> 00:47:33.716 Attracting envy. 00:47:33.736 --> 00:47:34.616 Yeah, exactly. 00:47:34.626 --> 00:47:37.759 And yeah, and when you, I think when you're younger and you're just seeing 00:47:37.759 --> 00:47:39.689 the one side of it, whereas when you, 00:47:39.909 --> 00:47:43.859 Joe: like, now But see, in my 20s, I would never have said I was envious of him. 00:47:44.169 --> 00:47:45.369 I would have said I deeply 00:47:45.369 --> 00:47:47.369 Sam: insulting if I He's a bad guy. 00:47:47.499 --> 00:47:49.039 Joe: He's a, you know, right wing guy. 00:47:49.379 --> 00:47:50.279 He's helping John Howard out. 00:47:50.579 --> 00:47:51.909 Attacking, helping John Howard out. 00:47:51.939 --> 00:47:52.779 Yeah, right? 00:47:52.819 --> 00:47:53.439 Sam: He's obviously your 00:47:53.439 --> 00:47:54.229 Joe: mortal enemy. 00:47:54.249 --> 00:47:59.609 Yeah, wasn't that The fact that he's better looking, smarter, more successful, 00:48:00.329 --> 00:48:04.129 on more money, blah blah blah, no, none of that matters to me when I'm 26. 00:48:05.919 --> 00:48:07.923 He's just a hack. 00:48:08.564 --> 00:48:12.673 For the Howard government and what he writes is mostly inaccurate and Well, 00:48:12.673 --> 00:48:15.313 Sam: it turns out helping the rich is good for your career. 00:48:15.933 --> 00:48:16.283 So, yeah. 00:48:16.513 --> 00:48:20.063 Joe: But, like, now it's just like It's Yeah. 00:48:20.083 --> 00:48:22.683 He's been so wildly successful that it's A lot of people do it for 00:48:22.683 --> 00:48:23.233 Sam: free, Ali. 00:48:23.233 --> 00:48:23.383 Yeah. 00:48:24.103 --> 00:48:26.343 Joe: He's so wildly successful that it's just easy. 00:48:26.343 --> 00:48:29.253 I don't have to There's no argument to have about whether 00:48:29.253 --> 00:48:30.833 he is or isn't a good journalist. 00:48:30.953 --> 00:48:35.053 The journalism industry has decided he's the best investigative 00:48:35.053 --> 00:48:36.593 journalist in the country. 00:48:36.603 --> 00:48:37.023 Who said? 00:48:38.573 --> 00:48:39.903 The Walkley Awards every single year. 00:48:40.053 --> 00:48:41.613 Sam: Oh, a different person gets 00:48:41.613 --> 00:48:45.033 Joe: it every Sure, but I don't want to pick holes in it anymore, I just, I 00:48:45.033 --> 00:48:46.845 don't even read the fucking age anymore, 00:48:46.845 --> 00:48:48.403 Sam: who cares, I don't watch Four Corners. 00:48:48.473 --> 00:48:50.343 Let's just say he's the bee's knees, but you don't care. 00:48:50.373 --> 00:48:50.533 Yeah. 00:48:50.533 --> 00:48:50.963 It's fine. 00:48:50.973 --> 00:48:51.613 I don't care. 00:48:51.893 --> 00:48:53.133 Joe: Oh, well I mean, I congratulate you. 00:48:53.163 --> 00:48:56.403 Whereas back then it was like, not only did I somehow in my mind or in an argument 00:48:56.403 --> 00:49:00.592 with him have to pull him down to some mild level, and it really bugged me. 00:49:01.052 --> 00:49:03.292 Yeah, and it got to me and I hated him, 00:49:03.462 --> 00:49:04.452 Sam: you know, I can 00:49:04.452 --> 00:49:07.957 Joe: totally see all this and like if he listened to that now He'd probably find it 00:49:07.987 --> 00:49:09.447 ridiculous or I never would have noticed. 00:49:09.507 --> 00:49:10.277 Yeah, he would yeah, 00:49:10.767 --> 00:49:11.287 Ali: he never would 00:49:11.507 --> 00:49:14.537 Joe: have been on the radar No, no, even if he even remembered 00:49:14.537 --> 00:49:15.757 who I am, you know what I mean? 00:49:15.787 --> 00:49:20.677 So no, I think you'd be surprised but but the difference is now is I'm saying it 00:49:20.767 --> 00:49:27.787 and some people will hear me And that's huge, hugely cathartic for me, so that 00:49:28.577 --> 00:49:32.957 this conversation two years ago, before we've done this podcast for a year and 00:49:32.957 --> 00:49:35.717 a half, would have been like that envy. 00:49:36.237 --> 00:49:39.107 That the garbled message calling me towards my future self 00:49:39.437 --> 00:49:40.837 had not ever been answered. 00:49:40.897 --> 00:49:42.057 Ah, yeah. 00:49:42.057 --> 00:49:47.757 But now I've laid down like a hundred hours of my thoughts or whatever it is, 00:49:48.837 --> 00:49:51.537 it's like ah, fuck, okay, it's all right. 00:49:51.947 --> 00:49:52.617 It's all right. 00:49:52.647 --> 00:49:58.307 Like to whatever level you had something interesting to say, you said it. 00:49:58.307 --> 00:50:01.767 And if even if it's only you kids that go back and listen in 10 years time 00:50:01.767 --> 00:50:07.007 or Whoever, you laid it out, just like Nick had done from the age of 21 in 00:50:07.007 --> 00:50:09.527 the age, he laid down his thoughts. 00:50:09.977 --> 00:50:13.577 And people read them and said, good thoughts, well done Nick. 00:50:14.017 --> 00:50:18.417 No one had ever really done that for me, from the end of that film screening. 00:50:19.057 --> 00:50:23.197 For the next 15 years, you know, no one ever said good thoughts, Joe. 00:50:23.797 --> 00:50:28.417 Well, the most was like nice Facebook post, you know, so the other garbled 00:50:28.447 --> 00:50:32.947 message is sit down and write and blah, blah, blah But I seem to completely 00:50:32.957 --> 00:50:37.317 lack the discipline or probably the talent to do that But in the end 00:50:37.327 --> 00:50:42.107 with you guys, I found a medium and suddenly that garbled message has 00:50:42.107 --> 00:50:44.122 been answered In the affirmative. 00:50:44.162 --> 00:50:44.522 Yeah. 00:50:44.832 --> 00:50:49.022 And then I go and do my dead end film crew job, and I did it yesterday for 15 hours. 00:50:49.022 --> 00:50:49.752 I bloody loved it. 00:50:49.802 --> 00:50:50.722 Didn't bother you, yeah. 00:50:50.722 --> 00:50:52.132 Driving a bus around, full of extras. 00:50:52.132 --> 00:50:54.082 I had a lot, because Yeah. 00:50:55.102 --> 00:50:59.492 I remember one morning I was making coffee on a film set, and Nick McKenzie run 00:51:00.152 --> 00:51:04.882 past on his morning jog before he went and was the top dog at the age all day. 00:51:05.882 --> 00:51:06.962 G'day mate, how you going? 00:51:07.002 --> 00:51:08.152 G'day Nick, how are ya? 00:51:08.572 --> 00:51:13.007 And I, when I'm engaged in my job like that I'm on decent 00:51:13.007 --> 00:51:14.347 money, I'm feeling pretty good. 00:51:14.357 --> 00:51:15.027 Yeah, yeah. 00:51:15.127 --> 00:51:18.367 And that was probably a few years ago now, and I realised even then, 00:51:18.397 --> 00:51:20.117 ah, that bitterness is kinda gone. 00:51:20.200 --> 00:51:23.020 but it was, that envy was brutal. 00:51:23.810 --> 00:51:28.560 You know, and, but, uh, but it's only envy and hindsight at the time. 00:51:28.560 --> 00:51:33.664 It's just hatred, bitterness, resentment, but to your friends, 00:51:33.664 --> 00:51:36.744 they're like, Oh, dude, I know exactly what you're so envious of that 00:51:36.744 --> 00:51:36.974 Sam: guy. 00:51:36.984 --> 00:51:38.234 Realizing it later. 00:51:38.334 --> 00:51:38.594 Ali: Yeah. 00:51:38.594 --> 00:51:41.684 Well, that's exactly like what I said when I, yeah, when I was younger, it 00:51:41.684 --> 00:51:44.514 was a perceived like, I don't, there's something about that person I don't like. 00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:48.809 It was just something I don't like about them and whether now it's not, you know, 00:51:48.809 --> 00:51:51.719 yeah, it's, I think you have to, like you said, you move through it and it's 00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:56.829 an, there's a wisdom and, you know, with growing older, I think that, yeah, you, 00:51:56.829 --> 00:52:00.829 you move past that, but it is ultimately, yeah, you seeing something you can't quite 00:52:01.409 --> 00:52:04.439 You haven't worked out that it is envy, like I said, you haven't worked that, 00:52:04.569 --> 00:52:06.339 that it's, that's actually what it is. 00:52:06.569 --> 00:52:09.819 It just feels like a, an uncomfortableness, like a 00:52:09.899 --> 00:52:11.739 dislike or a hatred in your case 00:52:11.979 --> 00:52:12.839 Sam: of this person. 00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:13.359 Yeah. 00:52:13.359 --> 00:52:16.789 And I guess Alain de Botton would say, yeah, well, the discomfort is 00:52:16.789 --> 00:52:20.399 pointing us to something and it's like, well, you know, find out you do 00:52:20.399 --> 00:52:21.689 a lot of this sort of stuff in therapy. 00:52:22.009 --> 00:52:25.079 It's like people have the cliche of, okay, tell me more about what does 00:52:25.099 --> 00:52:26.489 that mean or tell me more about that. 00:52:26.509 --> 00:52:28.599 It's, it's, I think a better question. 00:52:29.024 --> 00:52:33.124 Work better for most people, I think, is just like, okay, what's that pointing to? 00:52:33.764 --> 00:52:37.744 It's like, okay, it's like, we're trying to find our way through a confusing 00:52:37.744 --> 00:52:44.454 network of signals here and we're trying to navigate and yeah, what is this signal? 00:52:44.574 --> 00:52:44.754 Okay. 00:52:44.754 --> 00:52:47.194 I feel some antipathy towards this person. 00:52:47.194 --> 00:52:48.154 What's that telling us? 00:52:48.204 --> 00:52:48.474 Okay. 00:52:48.474 --> 00:52:49.194 It might be envy. 00:52:49.234 --> 00:52:50.114 What's the envy telling us? 00:52:52.244 --> 00:52:55.834 Joe: the reflection and the wisdom only came in once I put down the substances. 00:52:56.014 --> 00:52:56.704 Unfortunately. 00:52:56.704 --> 00:53:01.984 Because otherwise I could just be drinking red wine and hate watching his 00:53:01.984 --> 00:53:04.224 latest Four Corners special that he's going to win another Walkley Award. 00:53:04.234 --> 00:53:05.534 That's a sad image, yeah. 00:53:05.754 --> 00:53:06.224 Right? 00:53:06.374 --> 00:53:07.444 And like, fuck that guy. 00:53:07.544 --> 00:53:09.064 Like, what's he even on about? 00:53:09.074 --> 00:53:09.854 Blah, blah, blah. 00:53:09.854 --> 00:53:13.984 And it's like, I could never do the reflecting until I had to sit with 00:53:13.984 --> 00:53:16.354 myself sober for fucking years. 00:53:16.354 --> 00:53:17.164 Yeah, that's, that's it. 00:53:17.164 --> 00:53:17.942 Yeah. 00:53:17.942 --> 00:53:22.224 And also, yeah, he was mutual friends with this different sort 00:53:22.224 --> 00:53:25.584 of social group that I'm adjacent to, and I like the rest of them. 00:53:25.844 --> 00:53:28.594 And it's like, if they all accept him He's probably alright. 00:53:28.959 --> 00:53:30.449 He's probably fine. 00:53:30.899 --> 00:53:34.289 I don't know, there is no character assessment in anything I'm saying about 00:53:34.289 --> 00:53:35.809 him as a person or him as a journalist. 00:53:35.809 --> 00:53:37.429 I'm not trying to say one way or the other. 00:53:37.439 --> 00:53:38.679 Sam: I'm mad about the Howard thing. 00:53:38.729 --> 00:53:38.929 Yeah. 00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:40.099 I'm 00:53:40.099 --> 00:53:43.342 Joe: not trying to say one way or the other, um, it's 00:53:43.342 --> 00:53:45.342 just to realise my part in it. 00:53:45.472 --> 00:53:45.732 Sure. 00:53:45.752 --> 00:53:46.562 And just be like. 00:53:46.622 --> 00:53:46.852 No. 00:53:47.362 --> 00:53:47.512 Bro. 00:53:48.712 --> 00:53:53.292 You clearly, whether you did or not, you felt like you had a brain to 00:53:53.292 --> 00:53:58.592 use and something to say, but for whatever fucking reason, you checked 00:53:58.592 --> 00:54:01.792 out of the saying something business. 00:54:01.872 --> 00:54:04.772 Sam: Oh, I mean, Joseph Campbell, the call to adventure, you know. 00:54:04.882 --> 00:54:05.042 I 00:54:05.202 --> 00:54:11.377 Joe: checked out, I raised my kids, paid a mortgage and whatever, but I, I, It made 00:54:11.377 --> 00:54:11.967 Sam: me miserable. 00:54:11.997 --> 00:54:12.887 Yeah, God yeah. 00:54:13.357 --> 00:54:16.347 And then, and then there's a tendency in that situation, unfortunately, to blame 00:54:16.347 --> 00:54:17.877 it on the fact that you've got children or 00:54:18.297 --> 00:54:19.137 Joe: a partner or whatever. 00:54:19.137 --> 00:54:21.407 Yeah, but I still have an instinct to check out again, like, I don't know when 00:54:21.407 --> 00:54:23.507 I'm going to turn around and say to you guys, I don't want to do this anymore. 00:54:23.517 --> 00:54:23.857 Oh, I 00:54:23.867 --> 00:54:26.061 Sam: expect you to do it at any moment, but Sorry guys. 00:54:26.061 --> 00:54:26.171 It's. 00:54:26.171 --> 00:54:26.524 Yeah. 00:54:26.524 --> 00:54:27.381 Things are better. 00:54:27.381 --> 00:54:27.731 You're done. 00:54:28.151 --> 00:54:29.171 I'm more enlightened now. 00:54:29.381 --> 00:54:29.561 Yeah. 00:54:29.561 --> 00:54:29.947 Well, I'm 00:54:29.947 --> 00:54:30.203 Joe: not. 00:54:30.203 --> 00:54:31.221 I'm not bothered in the 00:54:31.221 --> 00:54:31.711 Sam: same way. 00:54:31.721 --> 00:54:34.201 Well, you've announced you've quit therapy. 00:54:34.571 --> 00:54:35.191 That was a big one. 00:54:35.191 --> 00:54:35.851 Yeah, like I 00:54:35.851 --> 00:54:37.721 Joe: went back to my therapist after 00:54:37.721 --> 00:54:38.651 Sam: three months. 00:54:38.651 --> 00:54:39.061 Sorry. 00:54:39.231 --> 00:54:42.891 I called it quitting accidentally on purpose, I now realize. 00:54:43.811 --> 00:54:44.311 Joe: But yeah. 00:54:44.501 --> 00:54:46.821 I'll tell you, we should wrap it up, but I'll tell you what happened. 00:54:47.771 --> 00:54:48.371 Go on Ali. 00:54:48.401 --> 00:54:50.851 Ali: Ali, what were you was going to say, that's definitely, I think 00:54:50.851 --> 00:54:55.441 a topic for like a whole podcast is like, well, can you graduate therapy? 00:54:55.561 --> 00:54:55.591 Well, 00:54:55.601 --> 00:54:59.061 Joe: let's come back next week and do that, but I'll, I'll, so there you go. 00:54:59.181 --> 00:55:02.721 Sam, I'm committing to another one, but I'll tell you briefly what 00:55:02.731 --> 00:55:03.641 happened and then we'll wrap it up. 00:55:03.651 --> 00:55:03.951 Oh, please. 00:55:03.981 --> 00:55:08.046 What happened was I ran out of sessions, government funded sessions, I couldn't 00:55:08.046 --> 00:55:09.306 afford to go to therapy anymore. 00:55:09.306 --> 00:55:09.866 I thought you were fine 00:55:09.866 --> 00:55:12.236 Sam: with elbow taking away the, uh, the extra 10. 00:55:12.306 --> 00:55:16.536 Joe: I was, well, the story's going to illustrate that, exactly that, and I 00:55:16.546 --> 00:55:21.081 had three months off therapy, because I couldn't afford it, and then I was going 00:55:21.081 --> 00:55:25.131 to be busy with work, so I booked in a session, new year started, going to get 00:55:25.131 --> 00:55:30.571 my rebate, straight in, 3rd of January, sitting down with my therapist, she's 00:55:30.571 --> 00:55:32.021 like, so why did you want an appointment? 00:55:32.531 --> 00:55:33.651 You haven't been for three months. 00:55:33.831 --> 00:55:34.731 I was like, what do you mean? 00:55:34.989 --> 00:55:36.649 Well, what are you doing here Joe? 00:55:37.709 --> 00:55:39.209 Like I never wanted to stop going. 00:55:39.209 --> 00:55:40.909 I was I just ran out of money. 00:55:41.419 --> 00:55:41.679 Hmm. 00:55:41.739 --> 00:55:44.349 Okay So what are you doing here now? 00:55:44.349 --> 00:55:50.159 And I did as I can do a 20 minute monologue on everything 00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:51.639 that was going on my life Yep. 00:55:52.299 --> 00:55:53.669 Then she's like, okay, 00:55:53.679 --> 00:55:54.679 Sam: still haven't heard an answer to the question. 00:55:54.679 --> 00:55:55.239 She's like, so, 00:55:56.819 --> 00:55:58.869 Joe: okay, that's everything that's going on in your life. 00:55:58.909 --> 00:56:00.209 Um, what do you want? 00:56:00.589 --> 00:56:01.899 What do you want me to say about it? 00:56:01.899 --> 00:56:05.129 And I'm like, yeah, what do you need? 00:56:05.129 --> 00:56:11.169 And then I did another 10 minute monologue and then she's like, Hmm. 00:56:11.479 --> 00:56:11.949 Okay. 00:56:12.929 --> 00:56:13.399 Nothing. 00:56:13.419 --> 00:56:14.479 Still giving me nothing. 00:56:14.679 --> 00:56:16.229 And I'm like, this is fucking weird. 00:56:16.229 --> 00:56:19.144 Like, How does this normally work? 00:56:19.184 --> 00:56:21.974 But it, however it used to work, it's not working like that anymore. 00:56:22.454 --> 00:56:24.414 And I was half an hour in, I checked my phone. 00:56:24.654 --> 00:56:25.074 Oh. 00:56:25.454 --> 00:56:26.084 Ooh. 00:56:26.434 --> 00:56:27.694 I was like, woof. 00:56:27.764 --> 00:56:29.694 And she knew exactly what she was doing. 00:56:29.754 --> 00:56:30.264 Sam: Oh man. 00:56:30.794 --> 00:56:31.554 Joe: Yeah, she cornered you. 00:56:31.624 --> 00:56:34.554 And I was like, so, how about, what are we going to do from now on and 00:56:34.554 --> 00:56:37.064 going forward and, you know, um. 00:56:37.729 --> 00:56:42.449 Maybe you could give me some, and again, I just ran into a dead end 00:56:42.469 --> 00:56:44.149 and I was, I ran out of words. 00:56:45.169 --> 00:56:48.839 Like, when I, from whenever I started talking, I was told as a 00:56:48.989 --> 00:56:50.879 young, young kid, I'd never shut up. 00:56:51.529 --> 00:56:54.749 And it's like, I talked non stop to whoever would listen. 00:56:55.069 --> 00:56:56.009 And it meant that less 00:56:56.249 --> 00:56:56.599 Sam: I believe 00:56:56.859 --> 00:56:56.989 Ali: it. 00:56:57.779 --> 00:56:58.574 Joe: I can attest. 00:56:58.574 --> 00:57:02.309 Sometimes, sometimes fewer and fewer people were around me. 00:57:02.659 --> 00:57:02.879 Yeah. 00:57:02.879 --> 00:57:04.139 Because I just Wouldn't stop. 00:57:04.839 --> 00:57:06.359 Yeah, like, wear them out. 00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:11.249 And I've tried to always be interesting, and she said that 00:57:11.249 --> 00:57:12.399 to me across the three years. 00:57:12.429 --> 00:57:13.099 Good at being interesting. 00:57:13.099 --> 00:57:17.679 Like, I don't know how much I've gotten to your emotional core, you've spent a 00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:22.649 lot of time trying to be entertaining and interesting for me, I don't really 00:57:22.649 --> 00:57:25.639 know what you feel about anything, it's always stayed in your head. 00:57:26.899 --> 00:57:27.859 And I was like, oh, great. 00:57:27.869 --> 00:57:29.129 That was a couple of sessions ago. 00:57:29.379 --> 00:57:31.369 How often have you cried in therapy? 00:57:31.619 --> 00:57:32.009 Never. 00:57:32.869 --> 00:57:34.719 And this was 00:57:35.469 --> 00:57:36.299 Sam: I don't do it every time, 00:57:36.299 --> 00:57:39.159 Joe: but But this, yeah, and then the other day, we got to the end of the 50 00:57:39.159 --> 00:57:43.989 minutes and she's like I'm like, I don't feel like I need to be here anymore. 00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:47.429 She's like, I don't think you do need to be here anymore, Joe. 00:57:47.809 --> 00:57:51.549 And maybe have a think about why you might want to be here. 00:57:52.554 --> 00:57:53.484 I'll leave you with that. 00:57:53.624 --> 00:57:54.044 Classic. 00:57:54.044 --> 00:57:59.824 And in the weak sense, I can't think of a reason why I want to be there. 00:57:59.864 --> 00:58:01.624 I have nothing left to talk about. 00:58:01.624 --> 00:58:02.144 Just habit. 00:58:02.184 --> 00:58:03.344 Habit might be, yeah. 00:58:04.124 --> 00:58:05.544 I did three years, you know. 00:58:05.604 --> 00:58:08.754 I used to say to Ali, Ali said she was having a break from her therapist. 00:58:08.754 --> 00:58:09.974 I'm like, you can't do that. 00:58:09.974 --> 00:58:13.044 It just goes on until they retire or die or you die. 00:58:13.104 --> 00:58:14.184 That's just how it is. 00:58:14.224 --> 00:58:17.379 And I would have said three months ago, If I could afford it, I'd 00:58:17.439 --> 00:58:20.819 go twice a week, and I'd go twice a week for the rest of my life. 00:58:20.859 --> 00:58:24.919 But, you know, I've dug up the main big stuff from my childhood. 00:58:25.369 --> 00:58:27.799 I understand the stuff of my parents a lot better. 00:58:27.859 --> 00:58:31.089 I understand my relationship stuff a lot better. 00:58:31.109 --> 00:58:37.099 I understand how my fears and anxiety works and that I need to look at how they 00:58:37.099 --> 00:58:41.449 work rather than why I have them and that that's enough to just get on with things. 00:58:41.449 --> 00:58:44.639 I don't know how to be as bad as happy as I'm ever going to be. 00:58:45.429 --> 00:58:46.379 That's massive. 00:58:46.699 --> 00:58:51.589 And it took three years of really hard work, but maybe there is a natural end 00:58:51.589 --> 00:58:57.249 point because all she ever was, was this Blank kind of mirror with occasional 00:58:57.249 --> 00:59:03.339 incredible level of wisdom, but basically my psyche was reflected back to me Yeah, 00:59:03.559 --> 00:59:07.979 until that it just was like cleaning a screen or something and eventually 00:59:08.099 --> 00:59:09.879 screens about as clear as it's gonna get. 00:59:09.879 --> 00:59:12.199 Yeah Go live some life. 00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:13.409 That's an interesting metaphor. 00:59:13.659 --> 00:59:16.429 So this in the three months I didn't go a whole bunch of shit got 00:59:16.429 --> 00:59:24.579 rearranged I put new habits into place every day and I just got clearer. 00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:25.529 There's a great line. 00:59:26.114 --> 00:59:29.994 From a Gillian Wells song, it's every day is getting straighter. 00:59:31.094 --> 00:59:31.934 That's how my life feels. 00:59:31.934 --> 00:59:32.504 Time the revelator. 00:59:32.504 --> 00:59:35.094 It's like every day it just gets a little bit straighter and clearer. 00:59:35.094 --> 00:59:36.224 Time the revelator. 00:59:36.414 --> 00:59:36.754 Yeah. 00:59:36.824 --> 00:59:38.354 And that took what it took. 00:59:38.354 --> 00:59:39.444 It took a lot of fucking work. 00:59:39.530 --> 00:59:43.850 yeah, so, but yeah, we can come back and talk about, uh, talk further 00:59:43.850 --> 00:59:44.610 Sam: about Ending therapy. 00:59:44.610 --> 00:59:45.050 Yeah. 00:59:45.110 --> 00:59:47.160 Yeah, I'm in discussions about doing it and have been 00:59:48.070 --> 00:59:50.220 Joe: Oh, see, I thought you were never gonna finish. 00:59:50.250 --> 00:59:50.630 Well 00:59:50.790 --> 00:59:55.350 Sam: No, well with the, with this person, this person, I need to, the other 00:59:55.350 --> 00:59:58.430 Joe: question it raises, which I think is quite real is how 00:59:58.430 --> 01:00:01.070 therapeutic have these sessions been? 01:00:01.110 --> 01:00:01.530 Well, yeah, 01:00:01.850 --> 01:00:02.830 Sam: that's, I mean, I think that's 01:00:02.830 --> 01:00:05.120 Joe: going to talk about it as therapeutic chats. 01:00:05.130 --> 01:00:05.410 Yeah. 01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:08.880 And mostly I just think it's just talking shit with a couple of mates, but 01:00:09.380 --> 01:00:12.635 Ali: actually, there's the added pressure of like, Oh, wow, I've really. 01:00:13.195 --> 01:00:16.225 Worked through something or I like, geez, I really put it out 01:00:16.225 --> 01:00:16.825 Sam: to the public. 01:00:16.855 --> 01:00:17.165 Yeah. 01:00:17.275 --> 01:00:17.615 Yeah. 01:00:17.669 --> 01:00:17.999 Well, 01:00:18.269 --> 01:00:19.729 Joe: here's what we'll come back to Sam. 01:00:19.769 --> 01:00:20.069 Yeah. 01:00:20.524 --> 01:00:23.994 It's the best thing we've come up with in this whole show and we'll 01:00:23.994 --> 01:00:28.704 do a whole episode is the patient needs to find their own medicine 01:00:28.984 --> 01:00:33.874 and continually self administer and I think that's what happened in 01:00:33.874 --> 01:00:38.504 the last three months and I sort of know where I found the medicine too. 01:00:39.434 --> 01:00:40.634 Sam: Oh, I told you you had it. 01:00:40.814 --> 01:00:41.954 that you were good at finding it. 01:00:41.964 --> 01:00:42.414 I think, 01:00:43.214 --> 01:00:46.874 Joe: yeah, I mean, yeah, I have to stay on the narrow beam now. 01:00:46.924 --> 01:00:50.704 Sam: Oh, but you're, you're quite, your balance is very good, I think, overall. 01:00:50.734 --> 01:00:52.074 I don't want to pump up your ego. 01:00:52.084 --> 01:00:54.374 Joe: No, no, there's still plenty of things, but I'm saying there's plenty of 01:00:54.384 --> 01:00:58.154 things I have to do, but if I do those things, every day is getting straighter. 01:00:58.674 --> 01:01:01.384 Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that every day is getting straighter. 01:01:01.454 --> 01:01:02.394 Yeah, that's a good one. 01:01:02.844 --> 01:01:04.684 And she doesn't mean heterosexual guys. 01:01:04.694 --> 01:01:06.764 She just means working things out. 01:01:06.764 --> 01:01:07.234 Yeah. 01:01:07.554 --> 01:01:11.189 Ali: No, I definitely feel like that's sort of, Like I was on that path, but 01:01:11.189 --> 01:01:13.319 I just veered wildly off it for a bit. 01:01:13.319 --> 01:01:16.999 But now I just feel like I can just, I can see where I need to be going. 01:01:17.419 --> 01:01:21.279 And it's just about taking those little steps to get back to, to that. 01:01:21.439 --> 01:01:21.989 Yeah. 01:01:21.989 --> 01:01:22.269 Sam: Girl interrupted. 01:01:22.269 --> 01:01:23.714 Yeah. 01:01:23.714 --> 01:01:25.159 Joe: Yeah. 01:01:25.339 --> 01:01:26.799 No, you've got a good energy today. 01:01:26.799 --> 01:01:28.019 I reckon you're going to bounce back. 01:01:28.519 --> 01:01:28.989 Yeah. 01:01:28.989 --> 01:01:29.979 Sam: Great energy today. 01:01:30.089 --> 01:01:30.389 Ali: Yeah. 01:01:30.389 --> 01:01:33.049 No, like I said, I did say to Joe and like, you know, apologies to the lot 01:01:33.049 --> 01:01:36.879 that I just, I felt like I crawled through those last couple of episodes. 01:01:36.879 --> 01:01:38.579 I wasn't 01:01:38.619 --> 01:01:39.239 Sam: myself. 01:01:40.119 --> 01:01:43.059 But you showed, you showed an adherence to duty, which is sometimes. 01:01:43.529 --> 01:01:45.279 You know, necessary and admirable. 01:01:45.359 --> 01:01:46.919 And, you know, and you didn't 01:01:46.939 --> 01:01:47.509 Joe: grumble. 01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:50.799 But no one wants to go back to me and Sam talking about no self. 01:01:50.839 --> 01:01:51.389 That's right. 01:01:51.879 --> 01:01:54.389 Sam: And if you're ever, if you're ever, if you're ever unwell and 01:01:54.389 --> 01:01:55.909 can't do it, like, you know, too bad. 01:01:55.919 --> 01:01:57.509 We're just, you know, yeah. 01:01:57.549 --> 01:01:58.089 Well, so that's where 01:01:58.089 --> 01:01:59.719 Ali: that work ethic is there. 01:01:59.729 --> 01:02:00.429 It is there. 01:02:00.629 --> 01:02:03.009 Like I just, I doubt myself, but it is there. 01:02:03.089 --> 01:02:03.459 I've seen 01:02:03.459 --> 01:02:03.639 Sam: it. 01:02:03.839 --> 01:02:04.049 Yeah. 01:02:04.799 --> 01:02:05.489 Joe: Well, yeah. 01:02:05.749 --> 01:02:09.479 Let's create some envy in the podcast world towards us. 01:02:09.539 --> 01:02:10.479 Sam: I think we have a little. 01:02:12.764 --> 01:02:13.674 Joe: I'd love to do that. 01:02:14.244 --> 01:02:17.264 I can't wait to get that message from Nick McKenzie, like, man, I wish I 01:02:17.274 --> 01:02:18.324 had what you had in the pod sphere. 01:02:20.109 --> 01:02:21.039 Yeah, nice pod. 01:02:21.389 --> 01:02:24.529 Reminds me of my first eight Four Corners episodes I hosted. 01:02:26.819 --> 01:02:28.369 Sam: And you know what's annoying about Nick McKenzie? 01:02:28.409 --> 01:02:30.119 That he would never flex on you like that. 01:02:30.589 --> 01:02:31.339 No, he'd be really nice. 01:02:31.459 --> 01:02:31.659 He's too good of a 01:02:31.659 --> 01:02:32.049 Joe: guy. 01:02:32.129 --> 01:02:34.809 He'd be really nice and be like, is this condescending 01:02:34.809 --> 01:02:35.799 that he listened to the show? 01:02:36.079 --> 01:02:36.349 Yeah. 01:02:36.629 --> 01:02:38.529 Sam: Has he, did he throw me a pity listen? 01:02:38.549 --> 01:02:39.189 Fuck you, Nick. 01:02:39.279 --> 01:02:39.569 Yeah. 01:02:40.549 --> 01:02:41.289 I take it all back. 01:02:41.299 --> 01:02:42.079 I'm still mad at you. 01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:42.639 Yeah, yeah, 01:02:42.919 --> 01:02:43.819 Joe: yeah, yeah. 01:02:43.819 --> 01:02:44.249 Sam: All right. 01:02:44.749 --> 01:02:45.299 See you guys. 01:02:45.369 --> 01:02:46.059 See ya. 01:02:46.059 --> 01:02:46.899 See ya.