Eli Davis: This is Eli Davis, and this is AI with Eli, and I have the pleasure of having one of, one of the coolest people that I know somebody who I have known for a Number of years, so I am here to introduce Marlena Ward Dodds Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds.
I messed up on the doctor part because you know, I've known Marlena I know two different names for Marlena that her family calls her one of the cool things that about this podcast or about this particular episode is that Marlena is my best friend's sister.
And my best friend passed away when I was 27 and he was 26 in a car accident.
So this is, You know, we haven't seen each other or we haven't really talked much throughout the years, but we follow each other.
You know, we make sure that we, you know, we know, of course I have to talk to her.
Mama
That's man, sorry.
And I love to, because I learn so much and I get so much insight from the conversations that I have with Ms. Ward.
So, without further ado you know, I just wanted to go ahead and say welcome.
Welcome, uh, Nate, Marlene.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: And I'm so proud of you too.
Eli Davis: yeah, thank you.
I appreciate it, y'all.
Welcome.
Very interesting.
So, you know, I've been reaching out to people who've been kind of getting into artificial intelligence because it's just an interesting thing to me.
I, I, you know, it's just interesting.
So, before we started the podcast, we were getting ready to go all the way in it, all the way in it.
So, first of all I just automatically want to call you Nay,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: It's okay.
You can call me nay.
Eli Davis: All right, Nay.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: all good.
Eli Davis: Okay good.
All right, Nay.
So, so, go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us how you have gotten into artificial intelligence, why, and why it's interesting to you.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Absolutely.
So thank you so much for having me.
I'm super excited.
And I've been just waiting for our time together and just excited about it.
I finished up doing a short panel discussion.
It was a couple weeks ago now.
Talking about AI and I've been just kind of making myself a researcher of AI and more specifically how AI ties into higher education and learning and development and inclusive learning and development that's kind of my niche area.
And so it is, I think it's going to be a game changer.
So I first I Got a little interested in emerging technologies through my master's degree program I finished years ago.
I was an online instructional designer and so was very passionate about online learning and how to make it inclusive because it was mainly adult learners.
And so there's It's a little different when you're dealing with adult learners.
And because it was online, you had the technology component.
And so finding those ed tech tools that really work and help with the learning experience.
And so I've always had an interest there in, you know, what's happening in the ed tech world.
And so when generative AI.
We've been using AI, obviously, you know, Grammarly and all the other tools that have, you know, people don't always recognize that was AI.
You know, that's, we've been using it.
It's
Eli Davis: Hold on.
Hold on.
One second, Nick.
I remember I was taking an online course and I got a B plus and how
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: me tell you something about online learning, though.
People, it's, it's, if it's done the right way it's the real deal.
It challenges you.
Eli Davis: professor, the professor, she didn't give me feedback until five weeks.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yeah, that's a problem.
Eli Davis: Yeah, that's a problem.
Yeah.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Huge problem.
Eli Davis: I challenged it.
I even a submitted a a letter to the chair of the department.
Right.
He shut me down.
He was like, man, if you don't get outta here
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: You're going to take this B plus and set it out somewhere is what he's saying.
That's what you're going to do.
But online learning, like the feedback component is huge, right?
And that's where, especially novice online instructors, they don't always get it right in that.
That part, because you got to do some coaching, mentoring, feedback, you got some elements of those, you have to do that in online learning.
And the other thing I tell my students, and I'll kind of tie this in AI in a minute.
The other thing I tell my students is even though you don't have me, like, we don't have we're meeting Asynchronous, right?
We don't have a set time that we're meeting.
I'm still available, so I'm still doing videos.
I'm still trying to be present.
I'm creating online.
I have online chats for my online classes so that we're talking.
We're building community, right?
And I think that's sometimes what's missing in online learning is building that community.
So I try to do that so my learners don't feel like they're on the island by themselves and don't
Eli Davis: Yeah.
I agree.
That is important.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: yeah.
So tying that back to AI I think one of the things What I'm learning is that AI can be super beneficial in helping those facilitators, educators, instructors, professors, whatever we're calling ourselves in those learning and development capacities.
You can use AI as a wonderful tool to help you ideate.
You know, if you're not sure what to do.
Okay, let me ask.
What are some ideas, right?
What are some things that could help me and help my learners and you can use it so you can use it in so many wonderful ways.
It doesn't have to some people are using it to just generate content and copy and paste it, but I like to use it to ideate to get my brain flowing and get ideas and Chopping up the ideas like, oh yeah, I like that.
I don't like that.
Let me tweak that.
You know, it's a good way to help get the brain flowing.
Right.
I love it.
I love to use it that way.
Eli Davis: I got a question.
So, in higher ed, there's a lot of writing going on.
One of my favorite writers, Ta Nehisi Coates,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Oh, I'm reading the message now.
I'm listening to it.
It's phenomenal.
Oh my gosh.
That book is, it's been captivating.
It's, I can't even explain.
Yeah, it's that book.
I don't even know what chapter I'm on.
I'm just in it.
I'm actually listening to it and
Eli Davis: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Exactly how I did it.
And I didn't think that I was going to like it that way because you know, I'm a fan.
I'm a fan of his writing.
But I enjoyed it.
I do think that he's stunting a little bit on it though.
He he like, he's stunting.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Cause I'm only on, I don't know
Eli Davis: Okay.
I'm not.
Yeah.
He's kind of, he's kind of popping his collar.
He's popping his collar.
You know, he should but that last chapter is, that last chapter is like, like he went in on that one.
Huh.
Yeah.
He went
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Never heard of him.
I just recently, I think he was on the news talking up on new certain news channels, talking about it.
And then some of my friends started posting about it and I'm like, okay, I got it.
And then someone else who knows I like to read, she was like, you got to read this book.
So I'm finally, I finally started it this weekend while I was out walking and I'm like, Oh, Mg, this is about to be good.
Good.
And it's so hard.
It's really good.
Eli Davis: So, so, so what he says is that when you're writing with artificial intelligence, it's really not writing.
What do you think about that?
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: You know what, I can see, especially a writer of his magnitude, like the kind of writer that he is, I could see where he would definitely I could see where that's coming from, but I can also looking at it through the lens of someone who just needs to write.
Or a business email and memo just learning.
I think it could be a very useful tool,
But I think creative writing may be a little bit different from those types of writing, but I don't the classes that I teach are in the school and area of business and learning and development.
Right.
And so writing in my learners don't have to do a lot of writing in my classes, but I do think there is some again, going back to being able to use the tool to ideate.
I also think that because I work in business settings and talking to business leaders.
And what's missing from the newer young people coming into the workforce are those durable power, durable skills, power skills, soft skills, people skills, like whatever word we're using for the day, right?
Those are the skills that are missing.
And so when we look at that tools and even digital literacy.
Right.
People are on their phones and flipping through their phones, but they don't always understand how to use the technology the right way.
And so when we're looking at it, so I get what he's saying, but when we're looking at AI from a standpoint of being able to create an email, create a memo, create a blog, like, I think it can be a really cool tool to help someone who's not super comfortable with writing.
You can kind of.
Give them, you know, some something a crutch or whatever crutch, so to speak, to lean on to help them to build their confidence in their writing.
Obviously, you still have to read it.
One of the things I learned about AI is you still got a proofread.
You still have to make sure it's not hallucinating because you copy and paste and stuff.
And it's crazy.
You look at my Oh, man, that's embarrassing.
Eli Davis: You know, you know, one of the things that I you know, I use it.
I'm a real fan of Basquiat.
You know what I mean?
Abstract painter Jean Michel Basquiat.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: oh, so you Okay, so you create do you create images and
Eli Davis: No, not necessarily creating images.
I it's like, what is this new paintbrush that we're using?
You know what I'm saying?
So it's like, okay, so, you know, you know, I love to write.
I'm a writer,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yeah, right.
Eli Davis: But I also played a guitar, you know what I mean?
So I know how to have something to be able to express myself with a tool or with something else.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yup.
I remember when you started guitar lessons long ago.
Remember you taught yourself how to play?
Eli Davis: Yeah.
And that was a year after Quincy passed and I was super depressed.
And I didn't know, you know, I had two kids.
I had no idea what was going on in the world in
Needed something.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: I
Eli Davis: picked up the guitar.
Yeah.
So, you know, I've been playing, what is it almost 24 years
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember that.
You got good at it too.
Eli Davis: Yeah.
You know, you know, I've, you know, I can go to, I can go to churches now and just be like, excuse the pastor, brother, pastor.
You might if I, haha.
You know, so, yeah.
So
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: so having that tool, right?
Going back to what you were saying it's, for folks who are not.
As confident in their writing.
It could certainly be used as a tool and if done correctly the educator can help them prompt learn how to prompt and learn how to pull the best out of it.
Right.
But I get from a creative writing standpoint also get that I get that
Eli Davis: Yeah.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Both sides of the coin.
Eli Davis: Yeah.
So, you know, I teach at Miles College.
It's a little HBCU at Miles.
Yeah.
So I, so, so my students, they use it and I have to have a whole, I had to, I have to, I said, okay today we're going to take 30 minutes so that I can show you how to effectively use artificial intelligence, because I know I'm not getting ready to be able to stop you from using it.
But you can't just go and just have this blanket general my biases show this and all that.
And I'm like, okay, so what biases?
You know, overly general, overly generalized.
It was one thing.
So, so we have a couple of questions that, yep, that we have here and I am going to go to what steps should be taken to ensure equitable access to the technology of AI is for all students.
So, so, so first of all, explain that question for us, and then go ahead and let us know what we got going on.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Awesome.
Yeah, that one was kind of stemmed out of my that panel discussion.
I just did recently.
We've been looking at ethics and AI.
Can you hear me?
Okay.
Eli Davis: Yeah, I can hear you
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Oh, okay.
And so I think it's, well, the question, what steps should be taken to ensure equitable access to these, to the technologies for all students.
I think it goes back to one, we have to, we meaning the organization, the educational organization, we meaning just communities of people, right?
Eli Davis: Okay.
Okay.
Before we go into that part, step back just a little bit and explain to us what your ideas of equitable access is.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Oh, that's to me ensuring that everyone has Access to the tools that are going to be necessary to take them to achieve their goals, whatever that is for them, right?
Everybody's at different places.
Some people will need Internet access, right?
. People need to learn how just how to navigate the tools that, you know, so whatever meeting the learner where they are, that's kind of what I'm thinking because everybody's at different places, right?
And that's what equity is.
It's not giving everybody equal access is giving them what they need.
So that's when I'm looking at that question.
That's what I'm thinking.
So in order to know what everybody needs, you have to have some type of evaluation tool to say, okay, we have X amount of students who need Internet access.
I know when COVID hit.
I think we really learned not and it was even eye opening for me being an educator and at the same at that time I was homeschooling my son.
Caleb was what fifth grade I think.
Yeah, fifth grade, and a lot of the things
Eli Davis: What grade what where?
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: We're crazy
Eli Davis: Yeah.
Uhhuh, because,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yeah.
Eli Davis: 'cause, you know, I didn't have the privilege to get to know Caleb very
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Oh, he's a wonderful kid.
You love him.
You he's an awesome kid.
I'll have to send you some pictures of him so you can kind of see, but he's, he homeschooled and loved, like, I love homeschooling him.
And it was a perfect time, you know, cause we missed the junior high.
Fiasco.
And you know, the drama with junior high, you know, the stuff happening to kids and they're changing and this is wild.
Right?
And so we missed a lot of that.
He was a little green when he started high school, but we, had to have a lot of talks and like, okay, we have to help the brother out , because Woo.
Yeah.
But he's good now.
He, you know, he adapted.
I mean, he is wonderful.
Now to do a he was chosen to be a student ambassador for some, he's always picked for stuff.
But anyway, a sidebar.
So I was homeschooling and I was, you know, I'm an educator.
And so there were things I even took for granted.
You know, you just think people have access to a computer, have access to the internet, know how to navigate the learning management system and all the ed tech tools to help.
Because when COVID happened, everything happened so swiftly that there was no, very little data on who had what, who needed what, how they were going to get it.
Like it was figured out, like you just have to figure things out, right?
. . Eli Davis: Yeah.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: that's when I became more
Aware of the digital divides.
Knowing what that you know what folks needed to be successful in a learning environment, especially now that everything was online.
So, when I look at a question like that, I'm looking at, you know, understanding the needs of the people of the learner.
And then finding ways to make it equitable for them, like whatever tools that they need to do that.
And so a little, when I look at generative AI, I think of, I think it's going to widen the gap initially, right?
Because you already, it's not like we've caught up on that gap, that digital divide is there.
It's been there.
And now you add another element to it, right?
And so now employers are adding this to, you know, their ecosystems.
So now I have student I'm saying hypothetically, if you have students who are already behind.
Now you're adding another element to it.
This is that much more we have to make up as educators, right?
You got to, we have to try to figure it out.
Eli Davis: So, so, so real quick, so if I had my students listen to this
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yeah.
Eli Davis: now, explain to them generative why are you using generative AI versus just using AI?
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Great question.
Yeah.
So, as we were talking earlier, I don't think people always.
Connect the dots that AI has been around.
We've been using if you use Alexa.
What's the other one?
Hey, Google.
Yep, it just came on because I said, Hey, Google.
Grammarly some of these writing tools that people use.
They're all they're embedded in different parts of our lives and our worlds already, right?
There's some Canva is another one.
Yep, absolutely.
So it's there and we've been using, and that's artificial intelligence, right?
So when we think of generative AI, and I like to, I think most of the times when people are saying AI, they're referring to generative AI, but we don't always say that.
And generative AI is really, in a nutshell, is helping you generate content.
So we say generative AI is generating, maybe it's images, maybe it's content, you know, text.
It could be a whole bunch of different, there's some cool stuff you can do in chat.
GPT is just a tool, just a large LLM that helps you generate some of the content
Eli Davis: For now.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: or now, oh yeah, there's
Eli Davis: now.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Man.
It's stuff popping off.
You hear
Eli Davis: Yes.
For
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: and you think, you know, like I'm researching this stuff.
And it's just so much right and so you can easily get overwhelmed with it.
But my thing is, I don't want because of the digital divide.
I don't want people to be left behind.
I feel like people are already behind the eight ball a little bit.
Right.
And so one of the things I want to be intentional about and I am intentional about with my students when I whenever I have the opportunity to integrate AI and explain AI and just get people started on it.
Like you don't have to master it, but I need for you to just start.
Eli Davis: Just to use it.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Just to use it, right?
Eli Davis: I'm very concerned about the digital divide being in Alabama and teaching in Birmingham.
I know that plenty of the students don't have access to wifi.
Plenty of the students don't have access to cell phones and hardly n none of them have been using or have been introduced to artificial intelligence.
And if they are using it, they're using you know, Snapchat,
Snapchat's um, and which I don't, which I hear is not bad to be honest, but.
You know, it is based off of social media.
And my concern, how I started to get into artificial intelligence deeply is because of that digital divide and knowing that for the first time,
for the first time, African American people have been able to be at the precipice of something so transformative.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yeah.
Yeah.
That part.
Eli Davis: Yep.
Yep.
We have always been you know, whether or not it was some anti literacy law or whether it's not something that, that constrained us to be able to push forward or to be introduced.
Or to have had the opportunity to navigate it.
This is, this to me is one of the first times in which many of us have the ability to be at the ground level of some and also have the wits about ourselves.
And, you know, the mental stability the fortitude to be able to learn and to.
Navigate and operate.
I think that's one of that's to me.
That is like one of the crucial components that I try to tell everybody.
Everybody like, Hey, y'all, you know, there's going to, there's probably going to be a lot of money to be made.
There is going to be the, there's going to be a I know that they are going to be some kind of closings of positions and it's going to take this and do this.
However.
They're going to also be some openings and if you don't have the, if you don't have the the skills or you haven't been navigating and operating and using it, then those opportunities won't be for you.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yeah.
I mean, if you think about it, everything that is happening in our K through 12 System where everything they're teaching these kids is going to be pretty much obsolete before they're done.
They're not integrating AI into like, I'm telling Caleb, listen, I want you to use a tool.
Let me show you how to use it.
No, you can't copy and paste because it could be hallucinating.
Like I'm trying to teach him this stuff now because understanding when he gets out there, I think he's, this is going to be expected for you to know.
And they're not integrating this stuff into the school system.
They're not integrating it into the curriculum.
Like, Some of the publishers may start some and I've noticed some publishers are starting.
That's if you're using publishers content, but I think as an educator.
It's incumbent upon us to, especially folks like us who know that this is this, what was the fifth revolution.
Eli Davis: Yeah.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: We know that this is happening is incumbent upon us to, to at least make our learners aware of it.
Right.
Finding because it's going to be it's going to infiltrate every industry, every job, like everything.
Right.
And so very intentional about that because yeah.
I recognize the, to your point, everything you just said, I want every student that comes across my path, every person that I have contact with to understand like, well, yeah, she said this is what she was talking about.
So they won't say nobody told me it, but it'll be up to you.
I can give you the tools.
I only have you for a short amount of time, but I'll give you the tools and resources and the research.
I'll give it all to you because I want you better.
That's why I'm in this game, right?
I want people better when they leave me.
And so I think it's incumbent upon us to figure out ways to introduce it even if you can't go into, you know, deep learning because you only have students for a certain amount of time.
But I think it's so important because if not, we're going to continue to fall further and further behind.
Eli Davis: Right.
Yeah.
And that's true.
And we think about this educational gap is going to be a chasm.
It's going to be a chasm.
One of the things that I, when I use artificial intelligence, I or general artificial intelligence large language models, specifically GPT or CLAWD.
I use those I use them as research.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Absolutely.
Have you used perplexity?
Perplexity is really good with
Eli Davis: You know what, I, you know, I don't know why I don't use Perpex, blah, blah, blah.
I can't even say it.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: You will like it because it I've used cloud tragedy and I think they all have their special sauce right.
But I found being a researcher being someone I always like to have the backup,
People.
First of all, it gives you credibility as well.
And so, you know, I might not, you might not be able to grasp it all, but I'm going to give you research and the references so you can bag into it and do it on your own.
And I found perplexity has been really good for me and helpful in giving you the resources right away
Eli Davis: Yeah.
Yeah.
I, you know, do you use the pay versus or do you use the non pay versions?
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: I use the paid version of chat GPT.
I'm, I haven't switched over to the pay version of perplexity yet, but even without the pay version is fire.
Eli Davis: Yeah.
Oh, I might have to try that out.
So with ChatGPT, what about the new feature, the Canvas feature?
Have you used that one yet?
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: No, I have not used that one yet.
I've read about it.
But I'm going to probably try to dig in.
I've been, you know what this last month, I'm gonna tell you something about October.
It has been insane.
And usually, I usually try to take, like, I'll read and stuff, but I, with ChatGPT for me, I have to play around with it and do, you know, get in there and do this stuff, right?
And I haven't had the time.
It seems like October was just, this has been nice.
Good stuff.
Great stuff.
So yeah, I've read about that, but I have not been able to dig in like I want to yet
Eli Davis: it,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: to think intelligently about it.
Eli Davis: It has its limitations to me because I think that.
It's, I like to go on and on, you know, I'm sitting up there reading for hours, you know, just diving deeper and deeper into
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Deeper and deep.
Eli Davis: Yes.
And but what the canvas does is you can edit inside of it.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Oh, that's dope.
That's dope.
That's dope
Eli Davis: Yeah, you can edit.
You can just edit.
I mean, the only you can edit you can you can go into and create a highlight a sentence and say, I don't like how this sentence is worded.
And how about we were to sentence like this?
And it just one sentence.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: love.
Oh yeah.
I'm definitely be dating into that.
This, I think this weekend coming up, I have some free time, but it's been, Ooh, it's been nonstop.
I'm like, and you gotta have the time.
'cause to your point, you just start.
Eli Davis: hours
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: not like I, okay.
I'm just do a little bit.
If, when you like us, when your brains function like ours, yeah.
You gotta have that block of . You gotta have that block of time so you can get in the flow
Eli Davis: Yeah.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: flow with it,
Eli Davis: Yeah.
Do you want to flow with it?
So, all right.
So, all right, we listen, let's do another question.
All right.
So how can educators recognize and mitigate the biases that artificial intelligence has and I'm just going to say this, I'm going to say my Peace.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Say your piece.
Eli Davis: Because you know, you know, oh, me and they also went to high school together too.
so, so, so, so, oh, creek.
So, they know that we, you know, we had walk ins and walk outs and, you know, we were fighting for our rights and
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: escorting us to the bus.
You
Eli Davis: Yes.
Yes.
So, you know,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: in the nineties.
This wasn't like it was in the sixties.
Y'all whoever listening.
Eli Davis: Yeah.
So, so, so, um, what I'm very keen I'm very keen of the biases like when I want to write and I want to write critically or when I want to, when I wanted to engage on a critical level, I have to do so much digging.
You know, or when it's pumped or something out and it will call black people individuals like black individuals or, you know, and it's like, okay yeah don't call black people individuals just call them black people,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Right,
Eli Davis: you know what I mean?
Because I'm writing this as a black man, I would never say black individuals.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: right.
There
Eli Davis: You know, I have to type in that I'm a black man.
I have to type in, I even type in saying I was influenced by the 90s hip hop culture.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: go.
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Your role.
That's your role that you telling the.
The large language model.
This is my role and like this is the role I want you to speak from.
I'm an educator influenced by the hip hop, you know, era, whatever.
Then you're going to get more precise output
Eli Davis: Because they don't know you.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: It don't know you.
It don't know you.
It don't get to know you.
Eli Davis: Yes.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: As you start to use it more, but yeah, it doesn't know.
So you have to let it know you in the ways that you, what you want.
And so that the output is more precise to what you're
Eli Davis: Real quick sidebar.
With chat GPT's memory.
Have you ever went to capacity on memory?
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: No,
Eli Davis: I go to capacity all the
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: I got the pay version.
Eli Davis: I got to pay a version.
I go to the capacity all the time.
All the
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: you mean when you can't yeah, for a day, for your day, your days.
Yeah, I've done that a couple times.
No.
Eli Davis: I'm talking about memory,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Oh, no, I ain't done that yet.
Eli Davis: Yeah.
I have to go in there often to go into the memory and like
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: And delete stuff?
Eli Davis: stuff.
Yeah.
Uhhuh,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Oh, no, I ain't did
Eli Davis: so, so I think what, first of all what I call it I call it, it's gonna be name brand intelligence.
'cause it's gonna be like the Gucci, it is gonna be like the Louis Vuitton.
You gonna have, it's gonna be, it's going to be name, brand, name brand intelligence.
It is gonna be which one you can pay for.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yep.
Eli Davis: You know what I mean?
Because
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: That's a great point.
Eli Davis: yeah.
Yes.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: pay for that?
I mean, especially if you're talking, we're talking about how many models, we're talking about threes.
I mean, specifically now, but it's like a ton of them, right?
So if you're paying for all of those, that's, yeah.
Yep.
Eli Davis: Brandon tells us there's not going to be a lot of people.
That's going to be at Walmart.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Make it and do what it's going to do to you can go to tarjay so
Eli Davis: Yep.
You know what I mean?
And then target is going to be as high as, you know, the majority of us get, you know what I'm saying?
You know, just imagine that the artificial intelligence or the, that the the power in which a government you know what I'm saying?
I, a military, you know, we're not playing with the same things.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Oh, absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
Eli Davis: Not at all.
But okay, so let's go back to the bias.
The bias question.
So, so how do you feel?
Like we could, we can, mitigate some of these biases
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yeah, I think it has to be twofold right I think the educators have a role, and then I think the institutions have a role, right so we because educators can only do some, they have control of their.
You know, their classrooms and the students, but some of this needs to take, you have to have a different level.
It has to be institution wide.
And so I think from the educator standpoint, some of the things we talked about understanding that how the biases sink in are infiltrated into AI and understanding that.
You know, the large language models grab their data from what's been out there on the Internet.
And that stuff is biased because it's like, you know, the people were putting the stuff in and the programmers.
We all have biases and it seeps into it's going to seep into the output of your the whatever learned large language model that you're using.
So understanding that up front and knowing that can happen, right?
So then if you know it can happen, you know what to look for to your point where you were saying earlier, you're looking for.
Okay.
The biases that are that are built in that we don't sometimes we sometimes overlook it.
I think also evaluating the output critically.
So what does that look like?
That may look like getting the sources that they, that AI pulled it from.
Eli Davis: or black sources.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yeah.
I mean, like, for real, you
Not easy and people think, oh, AI is going to do this, but when you do it right, you still got to do some work.
You still have to, you know, it's not like, okay, you could copy and paste stuff, but you run the risk of really embarrassing yourself.
Eli Davis: Yeah,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: and contrasting.
Okay, I said this is I think that I think also teaching the students AI literacy, which we talked about.
And I also think being intentional about our professional development and training on AI and diversifying the content in which we are, and showing people this stuff exists.
So if we talk about biases built into this, show them, okay, this is, there's some studies out here.
To that I can get my hands on later that shows how you type in an engineer is going to give you, you know, even down to now, it's going to give you a lighter complected per person.
. Eli Davis: Yeah.
. Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Or if you put in social worker, it's going to give you, like, it's very, the internet and the data in the internet is it's biased.
And so we have to be cognizant of that.
To be cognizant of
Eli Davis: it's just like the country.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Bam, drop mic.
Yes,
Eli Davis: Yeah.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And everybody else, you know what I mean?
Because it was trained on human data,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Human data, and we're human, so the biases are going to seep in.
So that, I think, from my experience, I don't think people really get that.
I know when I spoke a couple weeks ago and I shared that across the room, it was this aha moment.
People were like, oh, you know, their faces.
Oh, I never thought about like that.
I'm like, yeah, that stuff is, you know,
Eli Davis: Yeah.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: So I definitely think so.
That's I think for what educators can do.
I think from the institution, I think, again, promoting development, professional and professional development and AI being very intentional about that.
It has to be ongoing.
It can't be a one and done
. Is growing and growing.
So if you do one and done by the end of the year you is obsolete.
It could be obsolete, right?
Eli Davis: Yes.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: So being intentional about a plan to continue training and having offerings available.
Again, establishing some type of ethical AI use policy.
What does that look like for your institution?
I think that is something there are some schools and some organizations that are doing that.
And people are starting, I guess, to get on that.
I think I think allowing space for educators and learners.
To just dabble in it, do it.
I think that is one of the best ways to learn.
You can ask questions.
You can figure out, man.
Cause one thing I've learned about just the little I do know, Is that one of the things that promotes, I believe, AI promotes, Generative AI more specifically promotes, Is critical thinking.
Cause you gotta know how to prompt.
Eli Davis: Yes.
Uhhuh.
Yep.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: You gotta know how to ask them questions, right?
Eli Davis: yeah, that goes into inquiry based learning,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yes, absolutely.
Eli Davis: I mean?
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Get what I'm saying?
Eli Davis: yes.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: and that's what the world, that's what these organizations want.
They want people who can critically think.
They can train you on the technical stuff.
Can you, but can you come in the door and look at a problem, think through all the different scenarios, come up with your own way of like, I probably would handle it like this or that.
And then bring it back to me as your manager and say, here's some ideas.
What do you think?
That's what they're looking for.
Eli Davis: Yeah.
So, so, one of, one of my favorite people, educators, critical theorists, Paulo Freire, right?
Paulo Freire said, has this concept, he has two concepts.
He has the banking model and the problem posing model.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Okay.
Eli Davis: For a very long time, we have been in the banking model.
We have been just banking information and when you need to do an assessment, now you do, you present your output.
What he suggests is what you're talking about is problem posing.
Get a problem.
Pose the problem and figure out how to fix the problem, what we need to do, where's the problem coming from, you know, really dive into understanding You know, the, what he call contentization, right?
The critical consciousness of the whole aspect of it.
Like, you know,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: I love that.
Eli Davis: like, how can we be critical?
You know, we don't have to be nasty to.
Critical is not to be nasty, you know, and I think that with the help of artificial intelligence, if you do it right, but that's just like everything else I look at it as it's going to, is it's going to give you.
What you put in it,
Right?
Like, like if I don't know who, um, Sonia Sanchez is, and I'm trying to figure out something, it's not going to be, it's not just going to just like give me some Sonia Sanchez type stuff.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Right.
Eli Davis: You know what I mean?
It's going to give you, like, whoever, you know, whoever you put in there, if you put in Eli Davis, it's going to give you Eli Davis and it ain't going to be Sonya
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: right.
You're right.
Right.
Eli Davis: You know what I'm saying?
So, so, I find that to be you know, I've learned so much using it.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Oh, yeah.
It's definitely a game changer.
Eli Davis: I've
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: you can easily get overwhelmed.
And so that's why I think some people, I think some people haven't tried it because it is overwhelming.
If you look at the news and you look at LinkedIn, you look at all these, you know, it's Chat GPT chat GP or generative AI and it's all these different terms all these different tools and people are just like, and that's why I encourage people just try you can't break the tool, just try and even in my classes, I give them in literally in class.
Here's the prompt I want you to use.
And then I'll bring it up so you can see everybody's output pop up and you will have everybody had the same problem like you see how different this is let's compare and contrast.
In class, real time.
Eli Davis: Yes,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: people can see, oh wow, this is, yeah, okay
Eli Davis: or they also can see like some of my students that if you put in the prompt, if you highlight my question and you put it into a very similar GPT or a very similar large language model, it's going to spit out.
Almost the same thing, you know what I mean, if it's going to talk about biases, it's not going to tell me what kind of biases it's going to bring up biases.
So you got a whole bunch of people that's turning into something that just says my biases are such but nobody's telling me what biases they're talking about.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Red flag.
Eli Davis: Red flag.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: But the other piece of it too, though, and where educators are, especially in higher ed, is, and this is, I'm gonna put a pin in that one spot, you know, I get excited, my brain all over the place.
The other thing we have to be cognizant of are these plagiarism tools don't always catch.
Chat GP, they don't always catch it.
And so what's happening, you have to be very careful before you accuse a student of plagiarizing something, right?
Plagiarism.
Eli Davis: That's a, that's another question though, is it plagiarism when Chat GPT is You know, it comes in and it's all originally generate information based off of your inquiry or your prompt.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: You know what?
I don't know the answer to that.
I'm still like, I feel like that is something education is going to have to grapple with.
I think here's what I like and I encourage and I expect is that you are transparent about the fact that you use AI.
Eli Davis: So, so, so do you cite?
Open AI.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: That's where I'm.
Eli Davis: My thing is, with that, I wonder how many people out here have had grammarly changed almost a whole paragraph.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Come on, somebody.
That's the
Eli Davis: know what I mean?
Then do you cite grammarly?
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: That is a very good point.
Eli Davis: Yeah.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: I think, you know, I feel like this is a really good place that we're in because it's forcing us to, to re evaluate how we're doing education.
Right?
I think we've gotten so complacent.
We, educators, administrators, like the whole nine, right?
We've gotten so complacent and then your product, meaning the students that you're producing for the workforce.
That's why you have a disconnect with businesses saying schools aren't producing the students aren't ready to be in the workforce.
You have that disconnect.
And you were kind of sharing that a little bit.
I feel like it's forcing us to go back to the drawing board and really look at.
What's considered plagiarism now?
Right?
To your point, if you use, if you've ever used any tool like Grammarly and it helped you rewrite something, did you cite Grammarly?
If you use AI and it helped you, did you cite?
These are real conversations that, yeah we kind of got away with not having, but now we got to really circle the wagons and be like,
How are we doing this?
What are we doing?
Moving forward.
How are we doing this?
Like for reals, right?
Eli Davis: Yeah.
So, so in respect of your time, I appreciate it.
I think that was, that's a a nice way to go ahead and send it off because that, that gives everybody something to think about.
All right.
I would like to say thank you.
Nay, Dr. Marlena or that's,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: It's a
Eli Davis: I have, I said,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: I said it's a mouthful.
Eli Davis: Yeah, I haven't you know, yeah.
I, you know, when I talk and talk to her or about her, I always call her nay.
So, you know what I mean,
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: or bird.
Yeah, I know You know Wesley was the only one that he used to call me bird consistently I miss him so much because he'd be like bird pick up the phone bird But yeah, that was you know neighbor or neighbor and you sometimes throw them together
Never a dumb moment never a dumb moment
Eli Davis: Yeah, I am.
I am super proud of you.
This is a pleasure.
I have I've been in the South.
Did I say pleasure?
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: Yes, you did.
Eli Davis: I sure do.
And it came out too.
It was clear.
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: I mean, it was quick too.
It just rolled on off.
Eli Davis: This is, this has been a pleasure and I would like to thank you for being on my podcast AI with Eli.
So
Dr. Marlena Ward Dodds: love it.
Anytime bro.
Anytime.