Bridgitte (00:02):
Welcome back to GVPOD, Greater Vancouver's business podcast. I'm Bridgitte Anderson, President and CEO of the Greater Vancouver Board of Trade. We're continuing our series on the future of Vancouver and casting our eye today on the downtown core, specifically on a building at the corner of Granville and Georgia with a long history. Today we're joined by Doug Adams, the Senior Vice President of Development at Hudson's Bay Company. Nice to see you, Doug.
Douglas (00:29):
It's great to be here, Bridgitte.
Bridgitte (00:31):
Okay, so the Bay Building, I was just there today. It is a heritage building, uh, I believe it was built in the 1920s. Talk to me about the history of this.
Douglas (00:41):
Yeah, the building is really impressive and has been around at the center of downtown, I think, as long as downtown has been there. And it was built in four stages, actually over time, culminating in a final section in 1949. So as the Hudson Bay retail operation grew, so did the building. But overall, it has this, um, tremendous terracotta facade, great grandeur and really anchors that section in downtown. So it's a building we love.
Bridgitte (01:14):
Yeah, I, I have to say I love it too. And having spent some time recently in Europe, it reminds me, you know, it's got a little European flair to it, so glad to see that, you know, there is a plan to keep that intact. So, you know, let's talk about the plan. Obviously a very long history as a department store, but man, have things changed in that realm. You know, very few brick and mortar stores left, actually, and especially department stores. So what is the vision for the future of this building?
Douglas (01:44):
So we approach all of our developments because we're a full-fledged development company, but we live within HBC and serve also our retail partners. So we look at the building as a home that needs to be updated and right sized and really prepared for the future. We are not turning our backs on bricks and mortar, but it has to be part of an overall strategy that includes online and all the things consumers today need. And I'm not a retailer, so I don't , but it's really important. The building today is about 650,000 square feet. Um, and the bay occupies all of it. And actually our plan reduces the bay to what we like to say, a more comfortable 300-350,000 square feet of retail. So we're actually reducing the amount of retail pretty substantially but we'll be updating it as well. So we think it'll be a great new home in the base of the building that anchors. And it's, you know, the nice thing about a retail store is it's open to the public, so it makes the building accessible to everyone.
Bridgitte (02:51):
Now I'm gonna get you to paint a little picture for us because well, we're doing radio sort of , and talk us about what it's going to look like, because that will be, you know, basically about half the size will remain a department store. But, you know, I, I'm envisioning, you know, it's that it could be office space and community space. And so what is really, what is it going to look like?
Douglas (03:15):
So you, let me start with first, uh, painting the, the visual picture. Mm-hmm. , and then we'll talk about the programming inside. So we absolutely want and need to restore the terracotta facades as well as some of the infrastructure inside. There's some historic pieces inside not as many as you would think because the building's been renovated so many times over the a hundred years. But there are elements inside that will either save or relocate within in the building. So on top of the terracotta, then rising out through the middle will be a 12 story glass tower that will be a nod to the future. And really house office space that's specifically designed for today and tomorrow is companies, the facade of that. We've really made as clean and elegant and timeless as possible cuz it needs to compliment the base, not copy it or compete with it.
(04:12):
So we're really sensitive to creating a differential so that it's very clear. Here's the historic base and above it is, is the new office, but together they work as one building. Then lastly, it sits on top of two major mass transit and sky train and we are gonna create a world class transit hub, which includes our proposal, a ramp directly off the street for bicycles to a bicycle storage area and a place for bicyclists of over a thousand bikes modeled, offer things off of things like you see in the Netherlands and in Europe. And we really think that's the multimodal nature of this is really important.
Bridgitte (04:56):
You know, this is a, a huge project, obviously. Can you talk a little bit about the economic benefits, you know, job creation and what that's going to do to that corner of the, the downtown core?
Douglas (05:08):
Yeah, it does some any project to this scale kind of does a a bunch of things. It absolutely creates a lot of new tax revenue for the city, which the city can use to help revitalize
Bridgitte (05:22):
Cities love tax revenue, . That's
Douglas (05:24):
Right. Um, but in addition, during the construction, it will create, well, well the industry terms is 8,000 person years of construction. So if you took all the years, it's under construction, including external and internal, all the people that work on it, that's over 8,000 jobs over those times, the number of years. But once it's complete, it will house 5,700 estimated permanent jobs which are really important to the reactivation and continued activation of downtown the building, as I said, because Hudson Bay, the stores in the base, we also have designed common areas that can be used for programming, cultural belts, events, other things that will bring this corner of Granville and Georgia back to sort of anchoring this section of downtown.
Bridgitte (06:17):
Yeah, it's a good point because it really was an anchor of downtown for so long, and planning for a building for future decades isn't an easy task. So when it comes to whether you're building office space for workers and that's changed so much, or shopping habits, that's changed so much. So were you, did you look to other jurisdictions globally to see what, what was happening there? I mean, how do you kind of map out that future planning?
Douglas (06:46):
Yeah, we, we develop all across North America, but we absolutely look globally for ideas. We also really try to assemble a team of experts that can bring special, specialized skills. So Perkins and Will our architect have really great experience in adaptive reuse and this type of construction and downtown. So together we, we think we've created something special and be really attractive to the, both the office tenant, but the, the consumer and, uh, the traveler
Bridgitte (07:22):
And with a project this size, I'd be remiss if I didn't dive a little into the planning process and how that has been, um, you know, talk about some of the opportunities maybe and, and some of the obstacles and, and how you've addressed those.
Douglas (07:36):
Sure. We're in early stages. It will require a rezoning and we've been working with city staff to go through the rezoning. You know, it's, it's a process, but it's one that we're moving forward and we're confident will be successful, we hope to get through. Now again, the, the timing is controlled by the city mm-hmm. , but from us, we'd like to get through this rezoning in the next year. We're not asking for any uses that aren't already allowed, but of course the scale of the building and the organization building is different and we're committed then to go right into a development permit and get under construction. Key to that is attracting tenants, um, for the office component. But, you know, we are really bullish on Vancouver and on office actually in downtown Van Vancouver.
Bridgitte (08:25):
Do you see that Vancouver is, uh, maybe a little different than, than some other cities in, in North America in this sort of post pandemic world?
Douglas (08:34):
Um, a little bit. Everybody's d when you look across North America different, I would say New York's a little further along on the return to the office. Uh, you know, we're back in the office four, sometimes even five days a week. Most of New York seems to be towards three days a week. Um, and I know Canada seems to be catching up, but it's just a little later because of the cycle.
Bridgitte (08:59):
Yeah. And I certainly noticed being in Europe recently that at least tourism has come back very strong. Hard to say about workers and offices in Europe because I was one of the tourists . Um, so if all goes as planned, when/how long will this project take?
Douglas (09:15):
It is a large project, but in general, uh, we would be through the development permit by the end of next year on getting right under construction. There's a lot of work we can do in the building even before we have every last approval. But you know, and this building probably takes three years to build completely. So we're building for the market we see coming, not the market we're in today.
Bridgitte (09:41):
How disruptive will, uh, construction be on that busy corner? You know, I, as you say, like you've got things that are have to be done inside, but there's some things outside. I mean, part of I guess is preparing the public that there, it's going to be a construction zone.
Douglas (09:55):
Yeah. There will be some disruption for sure. It's a major project. You need lane closures from time to time. But we work and, and our contractor will work very hard. You'll have an experienced team on this, um, to minimize those, keep deliveries same day whenever possible. Really work within the cone and avoid any street closures and those sorts of things. We also have to work really closely with TransLink to make sure that the mass transit is operational throughout. So it's quite a logistical challenge, but we've, we're up to it.
Bridgitte (10:31):
Project management, right? Yes. , uh, you know, this series really has been focusing on the future of Vancouver. We do seem to be at a bit of a crossroads where there's a lot happening in Vancouver and also at the same time a real window of opportunity over the next three years with a lot of tourist opportunities and sporting events and, and a lot of things kind of to help revitalize or rebuild the city of Vancouver, if you will. How do you envision this project help to change the, the face of Vancouver and the downtown core?
Douglas (11:05):
We hope to add to it, um, you know, I'm a newcomer to Vancouver, but I've fallen in love with v Vancouver.
Bridgitte (11:12):
That's great to hear.
Douglas (11:13):
Yeah. So I'm very happy to be out whenever possible. But, um, I think this area is just, I hear so many stories from people who, we had an open house last year, talk about how they visited this area to shop and do things and with and without their parents, and to bring back that sort of vitality and the retail and the office worker and really regenerate. There's great things already going on, but we think we'll be a significant catalyst for that area to make it really feel, I don't wanna say the way it once did you know, sort of forward, but also looking back.
Bridgitte (11:57):
So what was that, um, open house like in that consultation process? You know, often consultation, it can be a little bit sticky, but, you know, people saying that they are excited about the project must be great. I mean, did people come to you with ideas about what they wanted to see in the building? Those kinds of things.
Douglas (12:15):
We got a lot more ideas about what people wanted to see and what they wanted to happen here than sort of complaints or concerns. I, sounds self-serving, but overwhelmingly the reaction was positive. And that included the associates who've worked at Hudson Bay for often decades, as they like to say. They bleed the stripes. Yeah, . Uh, they're really excited about having a new home and a restored home. People love the idea of the transportation hub and the connection of bicycle pedestrian. They're, people still have the parkade and the option to drive and, but the mass transit as well. So again, I think people are really, when they see something, I think they recognize that it's forward looking and it's Vancouver seems to have a real appetite for, for the future.
Bridgitte (13:06):
That transit piece is really important again, you know, with that casting an eye in the future because definitely people are getting out of their cars and finding other ways to get around. So when you're planning out the space, I mean, the interconnectedness with TransLink is important, but realizing that the ways that we're getting around has changed from e-bikes and scooters. So making room for all of it, I guess, is really important.
Douglas (13:32):
Definitely we're, that's why we, we chose not to propose further excavation to try to create parking spaces below the building. It would be challenging anyways, but to, to us not worth it. Cuz our company has always taken a long-term view, of, and to us the long-term view is multimodal.
Bridgitte (13:55):
How important is it to retain that heritage? I know you're talking about the terracotta facade, but you know, for, as you say, I mean for some of the employees, they bleed the stripes. Other people, it's where they shopped with their mother or maybe their grandmother.
Douglas (14:09):
Yeah, it's critical. You know, we, we own the building, but we absolutely sort of approach it like we're custodians of the building because there were people enjoying that building long before I was here and hopefully long after I'm here. So we look at it as we're part of a chain, you know, that goes back, literally almost forever on that corner and it's important to us to honor that.
Bridgitte (14:41):
I always think that people like you are in, in lines of work. Like you have a great opportunity to drive around cities or communities and say, Hey, I helped build, I had a piece of that. So, you know, when you casting your mind forward, you know, maybe five or 10 years and you're driving down Granville and Georgia, what will you think looking at the Hudsons Bay building?
Douglas (15:04):
Hopefully, I think, wow, I'm really proud of that and I'm proud of the people that work there and shop there and commute through there. Love the building and love to do what it's done to downtown. In addition, we're spending a lot of time and effort at reconciliation with the nations, and it's very important to us that, that be successful and that it encompasses not just the Hudson Bay Company, but all Vancouver has to offer.
Bridgitte (15:35):
Can you talk a little bit more about the reconciliation? You know, I think it is becoming top of mind in every single project, but there's a unique and very different history between Hudsons Bay Company and indigenous communities.
Douglas (15:51):
N no doubt. Um, and and I, I speak for me and for us, uh, obviously not for the nations, but, uh, I think there's a collective sense that this could be a unique project. We are keenly aware of our past, both good and bad. Uh, we acknowledge and sort of embrace the past, but always looking to the future. That's a spirit we've felt from the nations as well. So we're really optimistic that we can create a better project through reconciliation
Bridgitte (16:23):
And will we see some indigenous, influences in the design or in some of the artwork. And what's the plan in regards to that.
Douglas (16:33):
Yeah, we really look to the nations for that, but we want to see a lot of cultural engagement, uh, through the property throughout all aspects of the property.
Bridgitte (16:45):
Wonderful. Uh, so two quick questions then to round out the conversation. One, what keeps you up at night about this project? And then we'll end on a positive note of what are you most excited about?
Douglas (16:56):
 You know, I'm most excited, uh, about probably just having this history of the facade and the store and the associates to work with to create a new place. I really, I've worked on a lot of projects over the last few decades. Everything comes together on this project that is just, I've come to appreciate that opportunity. What keeps me up at night is what you referred to. Luckily I'm not the central person for project management, but anything in an urban downtown on top of what it's on top of is, is with all the historic. We need a great team of experts, um, to do that. And we just wanna make sure we don't make a mistake.
Bridgitte (17:43):
Well, it sounds like a fantastic project. I encourage people to look it up online because some great sort of design elements that you can see. Yep. And it really will be transformational for that corner of downtown. So Doug, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this comes together and maybe getting a tour one day.
Douglas (18:03):
Oh, be happy to give you a tour. And if people want to come to the second floor of the store, there's a model of the building there. They can see it in person.
Bridgitte (18:10):
Great. Thanks so much, Doug.
Douglas (18:12):
Thank you.