Meg (00:15) Welcome to the creative thread. I'm your host, Meg Loeks and I am so excited to talk to this artist today. She is from Chicago. Her name is Audrey Woulward. And I have admired her work for so long. She's known for her portrait work with teens specifically. And she has such a visual identity with her work, beautiful light. Meg (00:41) Rich cinematic color, which I'm really drawn to. Shallow depth of field, dreamy, compressed backgrounds with beautiful bokeh. And I think one of the things that I admire about her most is that she could literally create anywhere. Doesn't matter where it's at, what kind of environment it is, she is going to master that location. So, with all that said, Audrey, I am so happy to have you here today. Audrey Woulard (01:09) thanks so much. That was a beautiful intro. So thank you. And thanks so much for asking me. I'm honored. Meg (01:14) there's some things that I am just so curious about with your work. and I I know I've kind of mentioned this already, but one of the things that I I think of when I see your work is how immediately recognizable it is. When I see an image of yours, before I even see the name, I know that it's your work. I can be just scrolling, know this is Audrey's. So Meg (01:38) My question to you is was developing such a distinct visual style something that you consciously like work toward or did it just like naturally happen for you over time? Audrey Woulard (01:51) I think it naturally happened and I it wasn't, like I just said, it wasn't something that I like subcon I I consciously said I need to find a a recognizable style. I think it came about based on things that I dislike. Audrey Woulard (02:09) I have such strong boundaries and I well then I don't know where that came from but I I have such strong boundaries that they have to be in place in order for me to want to take a picture. And I didn't like you said I didn't realize it, but now in hindsight I can see it. Like I won't do certain things, you know, Meg (02:26) Mm. Audrey Woulard (02:26) or take the picture. And I think that repa that repetition and that consistency just kinda if it stayed with me. Meg (02:34) Yeah. Yeah, that that makes sense. and I I love what you said there. And I I also have a question about just, you know, as were growing as an artist, was there like a point where you realized people were beginning to recognize your your work? Do you do you remember like a period of time where that really started to happen? Audrey Woulard (02:53) yeah, early on when people, you know, said that they knew it was my picture before I want to say this Meg (02:59) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (02:59) is before social media. I'm dating myself now. Meg (03:01) Mm. Audrey Woulard (03:02) But before social media and like on people would post on like message boards all the time. Meg (03:07) Okay. Audrey Woulard (03:08) And when I would make a post, they would immediately know that it was mine. And it was that was just feedback that I that I received. and and I I think Audrey Woulard (03:17) when I star I I really think it ca honestly, I think it came from I would create things that most people were not at the time. So I kinda Meg (03:25) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (03:26) stuck out like a sore thumb and instead of trying to blend in, I tried to do the opposite. But it started really, really early. Yeah. Really early. Meg (03:35) Yeah, Meg (03:36) because I I do feel like you are very you have very cohesive work and you can tell there are certain things that you are really drawn to that you really love and you didn't like follow a trend, right? And I I I think that is definitely one of the things that like set you apart from other artists. So are there I feel like I know the answer to this, but I still would love to hear from you is were there specific things that you kept returning to? Certain light? Meg (04:03) Lenses, color, depth, all of that. Audrey Woulard (04:06) Believe it or not, I started off being only black and white, right? And Meg (04:11) my gosh, I did not know that. Audrey Woulard (04:12) did you not know that? Yeah, I was a Meg (04:14) No. Audrey Woulard (04:15) s okay, so this is a funny story. I started off only black and white. Like that was the thing. Black and white, blue jeans, white shirt, that whole shebang. And Meg (04:25) Yeah, yeah. Audrey Woulard (04:26) then what I used to do was I would add like a tent to mine. Audrey Woulard (04:32) It wasn't the sepia, sepia, whatever the word is. It Meg (04:36) Okay. Audrey Woulard (04:37) was I made my own like blend, right? And I started to to to to post it. Audrey Woulard (04:44) And it was always different than what everyone's was doing. They were like, Well, what did you do to it? And I wouldn't really tell anybody because I wanted it to be like my own thing. And so then when people started to figure out it it was like a it wasn't CP, it was just like a little different blend. I went the opposite and I started like make blue tinting. Do you know what it had like this steel color? So I started off like that. From there it started Audrey Woulard (05:11) to be things I have to have depth in in Meg (05:15) Mm. Audrey Woulard (05:15) my pictures, like regardless of what it is, even if I'm like indoors. I don't even know if I'm really answering your question. I feel like I'm rambling at this point. Meg (05:21) No, no, that's perfect. Audrey Woulard (05:23) So I had to have depth in my pictures and if I were indoors because Chicago can be cold, I would put someone up against a window to fake death. they were outside, but they weren't, we were inside. Do you know what I mean? So I Meg (05:35) Yeah yes. Audrey Woulard (05:37) I had all of these things that I would do, but I would kinda do the opposite of what other people are doing. Sometimes I feel like I'm making absolutely no sense. Did that make any sense? Meg (05:48) It it did. And I you changed city photography for me because I guess I just never viewed it as something that could potentially be really dreamy. And you are living proof of making an environment like that so dreamy. And it has a lot to do. You're so intentional with again your lens choice, your settings, your lighting. And I know people in the past have challenged you on. Meg (06:14) This isn't possible, you know, to have this type of background and you know, this isn't real. And you are very open and honest with like showing everything, showing your behind the scenes, showing your settings and pr and it's definitely like proven a lot of the a lot of those like naysayers wrong. Audrey Woulard (06:33) Yeah. You know, with city pictures, I Audrey Woulard (06:36) I obviously I have pictures of, people in the street or whatever. But I'm very particular about that. Like I won't just take a picture just because a street exists. Like certain Meg (06:48) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (06:49) things have to be there. If they're not there, I won't I won't do it. I will I literally won't take the picture. So like for example, buildings have to be at a certain height because of how light filters down. If they don't exist, I won't take the shot. Audrey Woulard (07:04) So that creates a lot of that can that look. Even if I'm in different states, if something doesn't align right, I will not take the pictures there. Like sometimes people think, okay, it's a street, it's a cool street, let's just be on the street. I'm like, well it's a cute, it's a cool street, but the light's not right. Meg (07:21) Okay. Audrey Woulard (07:21) So Audrey Woulard (07:22) I won't do it. I'm ver I'm very, very particular. So that might be like what you see. Like I look for places to like cut off ambient and make it only kinda come from one spot. It's I know. Maybe Meg (07:33) Hm. Audrey Woulard (07:34) that comes from me being partially a weirdo. I don't know, but like that's what I do. Meg (07:38) No, you just Meg (07:39) no, I think that's really important part of the process is to kind of like, you know, you again, you know what you like. and a lot of what you do is all in camera. There is very light editing Audrey Woulard (07:53) Yeah. Meg (07:53) with your work. I mean, we've we've seen it, right? Again, because you're so open about sharing like your raws. and and this is Meg (08:00) Perfectly leads me into my next question, which was, one thing that I do really admire about you is that I feel like you can photograph again, almost anywhere. I know you can photograph anywhere. I shouldn't just say almost. I've of course seen your amazing work within the city, but then you'll also find like woodsy locations within Chicago and shoot there and you'll shoot again in midday. Doesn't matter if it's like really harsh sun, you make it work and you make it so Meg (08:27) beautiful and a lot of photographers shy away from that type of midday harsh sun, right? And so my question to to you, which you've already answered is, you know, like when you walk into a location, is there things that you look for? you kind of mentioned, you know, some of the things that you do. But one thing I'm also curious about is do you immediately see the finished frame or do you have to like move around and, you know, work with the location? Audrey Woulard (08:52) No, I see the finished frame. I I always envision like the shot before I take it. And Meg (08:58) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (08:58) even though I do purposely choose, you know, visually unappealing looking things and then try to turn it into something. Audrey Woulard (09:06) A lot of that comes from especially, you know, we're now in 2026 and everyone can just pull out a camera. I don't want them to envision what I'm gonna take before I take it. I I don't want them to be in like a client to like look at something and be inspired by it. Instead, I want them to look at what my finished product is and like Meg (09:29) Right. Audrey Woulard (09:30) I didn't even see that. You know, so I I Meg (09:33) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (09:34) I definitely see it before. Audrey Woulard (09:36) take it meaning I know what the background is gonna do, I know what the color is gonna do, I know what the light's gonna do before I even take the shot. Meg (09:44) Right. So you're a very visual person and I've only recently learned that not everybody is like this, right? So it is a gift where some people can really they can visualize a lot within their mind. They can see the, you know, the location and see what it's gonna look like with a certain lens and settings and and what will look good there. But some people cannot do that, which I think has helped me Meg (10:08) In regard to education, when teaching, because everybody's so different, right? but one of the things I am also curious about is, you know, how much of those backgrounds, those really dreamy backgrounds that you have is actually about where you like place yourself and your subject rather than like shooting wide open. I know this is all super intentional with you from s the lens choice to the settings to proximity. Audrey Woulard (10:35) It is one hundred percent has to do with where I have my subject and where I choose to stand. I can shoot at one two and the background won't go as dreamy or as you know blurry, just depending on where I'm standing. And I choose that depending on what the background looks like. Where the light and the shadows fall on the buildings will determine how blurry or not blurry that is, but the aperture doesn't. Audrey Woulard (11:01) change. I'm always completely wide open. And that's by design like you know again always looking for depth. I know what that depth's Meg (11:10) Mm. Audrey Woulard (11:10) gonna do and then I place my subject where I'm gonna place them and then I decide how close or how far away I want to be depending on how I want that background to look. Meg (11:19) Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And I'm so curious about this and I feel like I read this somewhere, but do you have to get permission for certain areas that you shoot in like within Chicago? Because I've seen where you're like sometimes in the middle of the street. Audrey Woulard (11:32) Yeah, yeah, those are permitted. the funny thing is my street shots in Chicago are always like the same spot. It's always like the same spot. But the way I use it kind of changes like my angles and whatnot. Audrey Woulard (11:47) I Meg (11:47) Okay. Audrey Woulard (11:47) may move a little bit and purposely cut something out, you know what I mean? But I'm legit, Meg (11:52) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (11:52) I'm in the same spot like all the time. Now if I go to other cities, you will not catch me in the street. It'll it it will just look like I'm in the street, but they're really like on the sidewalk or someplace and but no, you won't really you won't catch me in the street. Meg (12:08) Do you I I I know this answer, but I'm gonna ask anyway. you use created lights exclusively or just most of the time? Audrey Woulard (12:18) man, I would say is was ninety-eight percent is it is that exclusive, maybe? Meg (12:25) Pretty close. Yeah, Audrey Woulard (12:26) Okay, yeah, I would say Meg (12:26) that's pretty close. Audrey Woulard (12:28) ninety seven percent I would use it. I know if I rear if I photograph like a baby, I'm more than likely natural light because I've can't wrap my brain around you the way I take pictures and using flash on a baby. I don't know why that is. That's probably just a crazy thing. But I would say about ninety-eight. Audrey Woulard (12:51) percent rare now that I would go 100% natural eight. rare. Meg (12:56) Yeah. Yeah. And it you do it so well because like one of the things I I love about you too is how you use created light and ambient light. So sometimes the beautiful hair light that we see on your subject is not from the light that you're using, like your key light, it's it's from the sun. So you're utilizing both. Yes. I feel like I I learned that from you. I've I and I've been like trying to do Audrey Woulard (13:14) It's from the sun. Right. Yeah. I really? Meg (13:21) more. Yes, I've been trying to do that more this summer. Meg (13:24) shooting I don't normally use my lights outside. it's very rare. And so this year I set a goal to do that. And I studied how you use light. And I was like, I just love how you use the sun to sometimes backlight your subject. And yeah, I just think that's really amazing. Audrey Woulard (13:38) Yeah, th I always tell people for me, the sun's my first light. That's the key light is the sun. Meg (13:42) Hm. Meg (13:43) Right. Audrey Woulard (13:44) And the strobe is always 100% my second light. Now I will balance differently, you know, throughout a session. Sometimes I'm completely balanced and you can barely tell that I use flash. Other times I will Meg (13:58) Mm. Audrey Woulard (13:58) blast the heck out of my subjects, and I want them to look like I used flash. but the the sun's always 100% my key light, and then I would use the strobe to kind. Audrey Woulard (14:11) create different looks. But yeah. Yep. Meg (14:13) Right. Meg (14:15) I think I think photographers are often taught to seek out ideal light. And of course, like that perfect time of day, open shade, golden hour. and your work, of course, really challenges that idea. because I've seen you work midday, which is something Audrey Woulard (14:31) Yeah. Meg (14:31) I really avoided until this summer because I started using my lights more outside. so was there a point in your career when you just Meg (14:40) stopped categorizing light as good or bad and you just started thinking more about what you could actually do with the light that's given to you. Audrey Woulard (14:50) very early on that started because I was a busy mom and I had Meg (14:54) Mm. Audrey Woulard (14:55) I had Audrey Woulard (14:56) A certain time that I could take pictures. That was it. But because school dictated that. but Meg (15:02) Yeah. Audrey Woulard (15:02) I can only shoot when I dropped because I never wanna I never wanted my kids to see me gone all the time. Like that was my whole thing because I was a stay-at-home mom. I felt that you know I kind of wanted to kind of keep that. So I I had I used I would shoot downtown and I had I got this timed. This is how the full sun started, and I was doing this with natural. Audrey Woulard (15:25) Lighting, no portable reflectors or anything. So I had dropped the kids off. I had between 9 and 10 a.m. to get downtown. So I would start my photo sessions around 10 o'clock. And then I had between 10 and 2 to get my act together and get back home so that I could pick up the kids before they got out of school. So that gave me roughly 11 a.m. to like 1:30 to shoot. What is that? That's completely full sun. And if I'm outside on location. Audrey Woulard (15:53) know you can only find open shades so much so I started just throwing people in in the sun and that that wasn't like I said it wasn't my design it's the only time I can chew and that's how it started and now it kind of became part of my brand I guess Meg (16:08) Yeah. I do feel like that's what sets Meg (16:10) has set you apart, right? Too because I know that this the the photography market can be saturated, especially in Chicago. But I feel like that's one Audrey Woulard (16:19) Mm. Meg (16:19) of the things that set you apart too, is because you're not afraid to do that. And for a lot of people, that's the only time that they can meet, you know, a photographer is maybe in the middle of the day. So you being Audrey Woulard (16:29) Yeah. Meg (16:29) able to just be like, no problem, got this. Audrey Woulard (16:32) Yeah. Meg (16:32) Like, you know. do think the Meg (16:34) Photographers, what is what do you think photographers misunderstand most about like working in harsh light or difficult light? Audrey Woulard (16:42) honestly, I think most photographers psych themselves out based on the fact of what they hear other people say. If they hear other Meg (16:50) Mm. Audrey Woulard (16:50) people say, that's the worst time to shoot, don't shoot, they just listen. They don't even try. I mean, I I can tell you the number of photographers who simply don't try to stand out, or I don't Meg (17:02) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (17:02) even want to use the word stand out, just do something different. And because of what they hear other people say, it's just the fear. It's complete fear. Meg (17:09) Right. Meg (17:09) I feel like I am guilty of that. I'm one I'm one of those people, you know, that up until recently would just like shy away from especially like harsh midday sun. but I yeah, you know, I one of the things that's really helped me grow is just like pushing myself to just shoot in that type of lighting and make mistakes and fail. Meg (17:32) and correct them and using strobe outside has been huge, of course, because you can really control and shape the light more in those sort of situations. All right. Audrey Woulard (17:40) Right. Right. You can do Audrey Woulard (17:43) you can create so much if you just bring out a strobe Meg (17:45) Right. Meg (17:48) going back to people challenging your work, because I I know that you have come across this, although I feel maybe I'm just not seeing it as much, but I feel as of lately I d I don't see it as much where they're challenging you, maybe because they're like they know, after all the BTS that you've shown that Meg (18:04) what you're showing is done in camera, right? Meg (18:07) So what is it like to have people challenge your work to the point of essentially telling you that you couldn't have created your own photograph the way that you did? Audrey Woulard (18:20) so I think I've been challenged probably my entire career. So like now it what probably would bother most people, I I find it kind of funny. I don't know why I do, but I do find it funny. But the the one thing I always tell people, and this is probably what I've told myself, and maybe it is a state of delusion as well, but Audrey Woulard (18:42) People are not moved to comment on something that they completely dislike. In especially Meg (18:50) Mm. Audrey Woulard (18:50) in the age of social media, usually they will just keep. Audrey Woulard (18:54) Scrolling now, does that mean that that I'm saying that they love my work and they're just faking? No, I'm not even saying that. It can be something about what I have shared and or done that they admire, and it could be that they completely hate what I did and they think that it's fake, but they admire the confidence to keep showing up. You know what I mean? That there's something that keeps them there, and the way I look at Audrey Woulard (19:21) that type of negativity is that I look for what causes it human behavior may the psychological Meg (19:26) Mm. Audrey Woulard (19:28) aspect of it because no one simply just goes to someone's page every day and says hey that's fake I hate that no there's something they like they just don't articulate it they articulate it in hate because that's how they get attention but they're there because it's something that they like period and that's the way I like it I Meg (19:45) That's I have never looked Meg (19:48) at it that way. That is such great advice. I feel like I needed to hear that. And I I Audrey Woulard (19:52) I'm a class hackful Audrey Woulard (19:54) person. Meg (19:55) I think you're so patient with some of these people too. And you don't like you don't go combative or anything like that. You when I everything that I've seen from you has been very kind. And I'm just like, man, this woman has so much class. Like she I just I'm in awe of that because I think that some of these people come in to really, I think, rile you up. Meg (20:20) And you just don't give that to them. And you have, of course, Audrey Woulard (20:22) Yeah. Meg (20:22) a huge support, you know, so a lot of supporters in general too, that are huge fans of your work, of course. myself included. So, you know, with all that said, has the the skepticism that you have received here and there, has it changed the way that you teach? Audrey Woulard (20:40) no. It actually Meg (20:41) Okay. Audrey Woulard (20:42) it actually hasn't. I think that I use it to teach bec and actu I did it. I actually was at Audrey Woulard (20:49) recently I did a keynote and I brought up, that type of s I guess, skepticism because Meg (20:56) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (20:57) I it's not it's not unique to me. I mean you get it. So you know you you kinda it kinda comes with the territory. But everybody will get it in some way. And I think understanding the root of it is Audrey Woulard (21:10) Important for artists because I don't think the goal is for people to stop sharing. I I that's that Meg (21:16) Mm. Audrey Woulard (21:17) would make me sad. I really want people to share their work and be proud of their work. But there there are people who will try to stop that and it comes from fear. And it could be people who say, your stuff looks like AI because of their fear. You know, all of it comes from it could be fear of themselves. Audrey Woulard (21:39) not wanting you know being scared to share therefore they want to rip it from you you know general from sharing based on their own fear but I think a lot of it all comes from fear and not because they hate something because they just wouldn't say it it's not worth it you do know what I mean so that's kind Meg (21:55) Right. Right. Audrey Woulard (21:56) of that's the way I look at it at least Meg (21:59) Yeah. Meg (21:59) I think this is just so helpful because there is part of me that I I honestly, and this is this is being me being very transparent, I do not share in those Facebook groups because I have a fear of of just getting torn apart. And I'm like, I don't I don't want to deal with that mentally. Like I have no space for that. Like I and I I don't think I have a backbone for that. So I just don't share in those spaces because I just don't want to deal with it. Meg (22:27) so I admire you for you know, showing up and every now and then dealing with someone that that is just super negative. so yeah. Audrey Woulard (22:36) Mm Audrey Woulard (22:37) yeah. I mean and I also will say, just to kind of build on that, for anybody who does, you know Audrey Woulard (22:44) want to sh because that does get your name out there. That does, introduce you to to other people. But if you look at Facebook groups or any type of group for that matter, they're very, very they have a a focused look. That's the best way. Because it's easy to blend in. It's hard to stand out. No one wants to stand out because it's difficult to do so. So when you do have work that gets attention, people you know they when they see it and it looks different, they will challenge it. Audrey Woulard (23:11) Just because, but again, it's that admiration Meg (23:13) Mm. Audrey Woulard (23:14) of someone putting themselves out there disguised as negativity. Do you know what I mean? But that's all it is, they're admiring something about you that causes them to comment. Yeah, I mean, fun fact: I have someone like now I've got my page so heavily curated and monitored. Audrey Woulard (23:34) Because it was just getting it was just out of hand. but I have like people who come to my each each post that I make every day and put a laugh and emoji. The same person. They just have to be seen. Do you know what I mean? Because so it's Meg (23:48) Yes. Audrey Woulard (23:49) it's that and then I'm looking at it like who has that type of time and dedication? You d do you know what I mean? So they so they are admiring something, but they they they think that I'm not understanding. Audrey Woulard (24:02) why they're there, if that Meg (24:04) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (24:04) makes any sense at all. But yeah. Meg (24:07) It d it does. It does make sense. Meg (24:08) And I I have thought the same thing as you of like who has the time because you don't spend your time doing that sort of thing, making those sort of comments, and I don't spend my time doing that either. But it really helps me like the next time I get a negative comment, because I get them too, you know, just thinking about it from the sense of like, okay, this person, I've made them stop. They obviously are drawn to something Audrey Woulard (24:32) Mm-hmm. Meg (24:33) within. Meg (24:34) whatever I've created and they may be putting out like all this like negativity, but I've made them stop and they there's something that they're drawn to here. I like that. I need I need Audrey Woulard (24:43) You got it. You got it. That's ex that's exactly it. Audrey Woulard (24:49) can I ask you can I add one tiny thing to that? Meg (24:52) Yeah. Audrey Woulard (24:53) Think of for if anyone who's listening. Audrey Woulard (24:55) Think about all of the really silly AI videos out there now, like dogs Meg (25:01) Mm. Audrey Woulard (25:01) riding bicycles. We don't comment on that stuff. We just keep scrolling. Do you see what I mean? So if someone really says, your pictures are fake, they're AI. Well, guess how many pictures they're saying like that that really are AI? So they kind of like know yours isn't. They just want to be moved. Do you see? So it's like it's enough, Meg (25:20) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (25:20) it's enough stuff out there that they scroll by that they scroll past. Audrey Woulard (25:24) really fake looking so anyway I just wanted to throw that in there. Meg (25:27) That's true. That's very Meg (25:28) true. So something I've been thinking about a lot lately is how easy it is for photographers to get caught up in settings and recipes in general, right? So what aperture did you use? what lens? Where exactly were you standing? and I get these questions too. with your work, especially, people Meg (25:49) can become very focused, right, on the technical ingredients. So how do you teach, Audrey Woulard (25:52) Yeah. Meg (25:53) how do you teach someone the technical side of what you do without teaching them to simply like imitate what you do? Audrey Woulard (26:02) You know what's funny is I on certain platforms I would share my settings really just because I don't want people to keep asking me. That's like like that's kind of the main main reason. Meg (26:13) Yeah. Audrey Woulard (26:14) but the my settings are completely wrapped up in my intent for the shot. So remember when Meg (26:21) Mm. Audrey Woulard (26:21) we started earlier, we said, do you envision it before you take it? my settings are wrapped up 100% in that. So like Audrey Woulard (26:28) For example, I may use an 8,000 shutter, right? But I may be I may take a picture that I want to introduce like a tiny bit of movement, but in the final shot, but to get the shot, there had to be a lot of movement. So what would look like a very static pose was not. Like I may want a little bit of hair moving and I have no wind to get it. So I would tell them to like move a certain way. Audrey Woulard (26:56) But then people will see my settings and they'll say, well, why is your shutter speed so high with no one moving? And I'm like, well, you don't even know the intent in order that I did to get a specific shot. And Meg (27:07) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (27:07) what looks like someone just standing there, I can direct like a bunch of different things just to get it to look natural, but it was a lot of movement. So in terms of like teaching in person, it's super easy for me to teach that because then they understand the intent. Audrey Woulard (27:22) If I record something and I tell the intent, then it makes sense. But some people will just copy the settings and then wonder why they're not getting the results that they wanted. And I always tell them, and I did a whole class on that. I'm like, the intent on the light that I chose, why and what I was going for, you can't reverse engineer that at all. It's the the intent if they can find someone to teach intent, that's a Audrey Woulard (27:50) gold mine. So I try to teach intent. in terms of just sharing work, it's impossible to like teach intent. You know, can I say one little tiny thing? I've noticed. Meg (27:59) Right. No, yeah. Audrey Woulard (28:03) So I would shoot it like one two, right? Audrey Woulard (28:05) Sometimes Meg (28:06) Right. Audrey Woulard (28:06) I'll dial my aperture higher for whatever reason, but then if I'm moving real fast, I won't have it on one two, it'll land on 1.3, right? And that's Meg (28:16) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (28:17) simply because I didn't dial it all the way down, right? No one knows that. I've seen people now use 1.3 because I'll share my settings and it'll say 1.3 and it's not done because I Meg (28:29) Mm. Audrey Woulard (28:29) found some super secret. I just forgot to dial it all the way to one. Audrey Woulard (28:35) two but I've now seen people copy that and I'm like wow no one shoots at one three except me who forgot to dial their camera all the way down literally so the whole like people have to like understand the intent I think Meg (28:47) this so clearly j just answers answered my next question, which was, you know, is understanding why you made a decision more valuable than knowing the exact Audrey Woulard (28:55) Well. Meg (28:57) setting and that that answers it, right? So Audrey Woulard (29:00) Yep. Meg (29:00) I guess, you know, what do you wish photographers would pay attention to before asking for someone's settings? What do you think they should be looking at instead of technical stuff? Audrey Woulard (29:09) Honestly, lighting. I think if if I I think if I were to look at someone's work and really want to know the mechanics about, I would always ask about direction of light. Meg (29:22) Mm. Audrey Woulard (29:23) I mean even if it's like, hey, is your light on the right or were you going for having the light on, you know? Audrey Woulard (29:30) I would study it that way because that that tells a lot about what they were looking for. Do you know what I mean? What and then direction of lighting also can tell a story, the mood. So I would I I do that with movies. I always like study like where the key light is coming from. Do you do that? Meg (29:46) Yes. I do that. I guess Meg (29:48) I do that. And I will take pictures sometimes with my cell phone. If I'm like, I tell my husband to stop, pause the movie so I can take a picture because I like really love the light in that scene. Audrey Woulard (29:58) Yeah. Meg (29:59) but yeah, I always tell my students too, if you're wondering about lighting, if you can zoom in, study the catch lights, and that usually gives gives it away, you know, what what type of lighting is being used and where the lights are. Audrey Woulard (30:13) Mm-hmm. The light under the chin. What's along the side of the Meg (30:14) So that is great advice. Yes. Audrey Woulard (30:17) face? Like to me, that is the to me that's like the gold mine. It you know, even if it's like very flat, that still tells the story. Like, you know, the Barbie movie? Do you remember how like Meg (30:30) Yes. Audrey Woulard (30:30) flat all of that told the story? And and I actually like like studied the the director director of photography's entire body of work after that movie, like like completely. Meg (30:41) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (30:42) But Audrey Woulard (30:42) that's the Audrey Woulard (30:43) direction of light, that's the key, I think, before any settings. Meg (30:47) Yeah. Yeah, I can see that with your with your work. I'm and I know light is really important and you just create like the most beautiful light in again the some of the trickiest like situations. wrapping things up here, just a a few more questions for you. Audrey Woulard (31:01) Sure. Meg (31:02) you know, you've been doing this for a long time, and photography has of course changed enormously Audrey Woulard (31:07) Mm-hmm. Meg (31:08) both the industry itself and the way you're constantly consuming. Meg (31:11) other people's work online because it is again very heavily saturated. again, your work is so recognizable. So how do you continue evolving creatively without losing the things that made your work yours in the first place? Audrey Woulard (31:27) Wow. I gosh, I think I'm still like learning. You know, for me I always find Audrey Woulard (31:37) creative ruts to be like the best time to like evolve to the next you. They are horrible. Horrible, horrible, where you think everything you create is boring, you don't like everything you know that you're doing, and you know that there's something want to do differently, but you just don't know what it is. I change lenses so that I can see Meg (32:00) Mm. Audrey Woulard (32:00) the world differently. I will pull out like the kit a kit lens and put that on my camera. Audrey Woulard (32:05) a a wide angle even though i'm always using my 85 i actually Meg (32:09) Mm. Audrey Woulard (32:09) will use other lenses too but i put on a different lens so that i can see the world like completely different and so like now i'm pulling out my 20 millimeter a lot and then just kinda you know seeing what's that's what i do Meg (32:23) That's yeah. And you Meg (32:26) you every year, correct me if I'm wrong, but you take a break every year as well, right? at a good solid maybe month off where you do like a reset. Audrey Woulard (32:33) Yeah. Audrey Woulard (32:34) Two months actually. So yeah, December Meg (32:36) Two months, okay. Audrey Woulard (32:38) nothing. January nothing. February only if conference season, you know, says that there's a conference that's Meg (32:44) Mm Audrey Woulard (32:45) going on. Audrey Woulard (32:46) But other than that, I, you know, take breaks. I try to take breaks from certain conferences just so that you can just reset and you know, and cause it's really easy to overexpose yourself. It's super easy Meg (32:59) Right. Yeah. Audrey Woulard (33:00) to do. Overexpose, ha. It's pun. But yeah, I would totally just like take a break. So people sometimes may wonder like where I'm at, and I'm like, you know, just gotta reset it. Cause it's like you said, it's so easy to get overexposed. So I try to take like little breaks. Audrey Woulard (33:14) And then come back. Meg (33:15) Okay. Yeah, Meg (33:16) that's good advice. I I think you hear so many times like people in the industry being like, You gotta push through, you gotta keep shooting. And the older I get, the more I realize how important it is to have like a reset, to have a break and just to maybe step away from I don't know, all the the things that I think we're constantly ob absorbing. So breaks are healthy. Yeah. Audrey Woulard (33:39) I think so. Audrey Woulard (33:40) And it keeps things fresh too. Yep. Meg (33:42) Yeah. Yeah. Meg (33:44) So last question for you here. What Audrey Woulard (33:47) Yeah. Meg (33:48) is exciting you creatively right now? Do you have anything like coming up that you're really excited about? Audrey Woulard (33:54) honestly I think I'm excited about pulling out the wide angle more. I mean, Meg (34:00) Yeah. Audrey Woulard (34:00) if already be honest, yeah. I'm I'm liking, I mean I've I've done it, you know, a few times, but I'm Meg (34:06) Hm? Audrey Woulard (34:06) I'm very creature of habit type of a person. Yeah, Meg (34:09) I am too. Audrey Woulard (34:10) I mean I don't like changing routines, but I was using I was using the wide angle, the 20 millimeter. Audrey Woulard (34:17) but I couldn't like in I couldn't bring it into my workflow. D do you know what I mean? I would have it in my bag. But knowing that all right, this is the type of shot I'm going for. Let me pull this out. It took it took a solid year for me to like Audrey Woulard (34:32) bring it in, But now I'm excited Meg (34:33) Mm-hmm. Audrey Woulard (34:34) about having a more kind of like editorial type of look. Like I don't want it to be the stereotypical senior shot where they've got a big huge foot and everybody's squatting down. Like I don't want to like use it that. So I'm trying Meg (34:46) Yeah. Audrey Woulard (34:47) to find a different, more fashion way to use it. But I think I think I got it. So that'll be heavily 2027. Meg (34:55) There's a shot that lives rent-free in my head from WPPI that you took with a wide angle. Am I wrong? You you did one with a wide angle. You got really low at Was it Audrey Woulard (35:06) Was it one person Audrey Woulard (35:07) or two? Meg (35:11) I can't remember if it was one person or it was two, but all of your shots that you created, WPPI like, my gosh, Audrey Woulard (35:14) I know you hack me out. Meg (35:15) I I wish I would have been at your workshop because it's like this blew me away. Yeah. Audrey Woulard (35:18) I know what you're talking about. Yeah, Audrey Woulard (35:20) it was I took it and I incorporated the ceiling lights in the convention because it was Meg (35:25) Yes, yes. Audrey Woulard (35:27) like they matched the tone. So yeah, I shot like over the the the whole set that they built and just put this you know, I'm I'm good for doing stuff like that. But yeah, so that's Meg (35:37) Yeah. Audrey Woulard (35:37) kind of like what I wanna do more of for twenty twenty-seven. Meg (35:40) Yeah, that Meg (35:41) I remember that shot. I was like, my God, that was so good. Like, and you got Audrey Woulard (35:45) Thank you. Meg (35:46) you got really low. And yeah, I I noticed that, you know, that was a little bit different for you because of the wide angle, but like so good. So, so good. Audrey Woulard (35:54) Thanks. Okay. Meg (35:55) yeah, yeah, of course. So thank you for joining me. I really appreciate you. I really love getting to talk, you know, through just not only like how you create your work, but how you learn to see. Meg (36:06) the possibility of light and locations, that often I think other people overlook. where is the best place for people to find you to learn more about your work and your education? Because you have education too, correct? Audrey Woulard (36:19) Yeah, I've got an educational site. so the two places that I'm at the most would be my Facebook page, which is Audrey Woulard Photography, and then Instagram, which is just my name, Audrey Woulard And those are the two places I'm at the most. Every place else, you I'm not I'm it's just wasting time. But yeah, so those are the two places Meg (36:40) Yep. I get that. Audrey Woulard (36:42) that you could definitely find me. Meg (36:45) Okay. I get that. Well, thank you so much for for joining me today. And again, I loved getting to talk with you. Audrey Woulard (36:51) You too. Always a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. Meg (36:55) Thank you.