WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:50.915 --> 00:00:52.025 Duke: Hey everyone. 00:00:52.025 --> 00:00:54.215 Welcome to another episode of CJ and the Duke. 00:00:54.215 --> 00:00:56.765 As always, I am a co-host Robert the Duke Fedor. 00:00:57.275 --> 00:00:59.075 And I am Corey, CJ Wesley. 00:00:59.075 --> 00:01:01.115 This episode is brought to you by Clear Sky. 00:01:01.235 --> 00:01:04.695 Clear Sky is the only identity governance and security solution 00:01:04.700 --> 00:01:06.535 built natively on ServiceNow. 00:01:06.875 --> 00:01:11.655 It optimizes enterprise identity and risk management with a platform first approach. 00:01:12.245 --> 00:01:16.415 Look, we have built a great digital world where we can plug and play people into 00:01:16.415 --> 00:01:18.515 our applications and information globally. 00:01:18.785 --> 00:01:22.715 Great for speedy operations, but can be a real nightmare for risk 00:01:22.715 --> 00:01:26.795 and security and governance who are left asking who has access to what? 00:01:26.975 --> 00:01:28.295 Who authorized that? 00:01:28.475 --> 00:01:29.735 Should they still have it? 00:01:29.885 --> 00:01:31.565 When's the last time we checked? 00:01:31.940 --> 00:01:36.710 This is why CJ and the Duke love Clear Sky, all of the benefit of a company 00:01:36.710 --> 00:01:41.570 with decades worth of I L M and I g A experience with a solution that's built 00:01:41.570 --> 00:01:48.920 natively on ServiceNow, the platform that we all trust, clear sky optimized identity 00:01:48.980 --> 00:01:51.310 management built natively on ServiceNow. 00:01:51.770 --> 00:01:55.430 Check the description below for an episode, CJ and I did on Clear Sky 00:01:55.610 --> 00:01:57.170 as well as how to contact them. 00:01:58.015 --> 00:01:59.606 CJ: What the goes on here? 00:02:00.986 --> 00:02:09.536 Duke: We're keeping that one in yeah, so for those of you just joining us, 00:02:09.541 --> 00:02:11.876 Corey and I have been here for an hour, scratching our heads, trying to figure 00:02:11.876 --> 00:02:13.286 out what episode we're gonna do today. 00:02:13.376 --> 00:02:14.786 Not, not to say we're not prepared. 00:02:14.786 --> 00:02:18.036 We have a huge library, a potential episodes, but we just 00:02:18.036 --> 00:02:20.916 didn't feel like we didn't have enough gas in the tank on all on. 00:02:21.566 --> 00:02:21.986 CJ: Yeah, man. 00:02:21.986 --> 00:02:24.056 You know, sometimes it's a thing that calls you, right? 00:02:24.056 --> 00:02:26.696 Like you go through these things and something's, calls out to you. 00:02:26.696 --> 00:02:28.826 You feel something in your soul about it, right? 00:02:28.826 --> 00:02:32.506 And, and, and we, and we jump in on it and we, and we, you know, knock out like some 00:02:32.506 --> 00:02:35.816 bullet points and then we proceed to start recording and ignoring all the bullet. 00:02:36.021 --> 00:02:40.998 Points and . and you know, this time, like we went through our extensive backlog 00:02:40.998 --> 00:02:42.678 of, you know, I love backlog, right? 00:02:42.678 --> 00:02:45.468 Like, we're gonna talk about this, like we're doing stories in agile development. 00:02:45.678 --> 00:02:45.858 Yeah. 00:02:45.858 --> 00:02:48.201 We went through our backlog and none of this stuff really just, 00:02:48.201 --> 00:02:49.476 called out to either of us. 00:02:49.481 --> 00:02:53.855 And so here we are now, just kind of, uh, we're shooting really 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:54.660 Duke: There we go. 00:02:55.530 --> 00:02:56.130 Yeah. 00:02:56.340 --> 00:03:01.250 So, um, what do you struggle with this week, bud? 00:03:01.531 --> 00:03:04.651 CJ: testing actually, testing and documentation. 00:03:04.666 --> 00:03:07.101 were on the agenda for this week and. 00:03:07.421 --> 00:03:11.021 You know, neither one of those are typically a struggle to this week 00:03:11.021 --> 00:03:14.051 though, they were a struggle, and maybe it was, maybe they were a 00:03:14.051 --> 00:03:17.411 struggle because I just kind of hit my flow state on the theme that I was 00:03:17.411 --> 00:03:21.971 building last week and which led to me completing it, which was great, right? 00:03:22.021 --> 00:03:25.262 , but it was, but I felt like I had a little bit of flow state left over and I had, 00:03:25.267 --> 00:03:26.471 I didn't have anything to use it on. 00:03:26.798 --> 00:03:30.248 and so now when it comes to like testing and, writing a documentation like that 00:03:30.248 --> 00:03:34.058 doesn't really, for me anyway, doesn't really require or utilize Flow state. 00:03:34.308 --> 00:03:35.268 , for like documentation. 00:03:35.268 --> 00:03:38.808 I do other kinds of writing that I do need the, flow state for, but 00:03:38.885 --> 00:03:42.338 those sorts of things are a little bit more, , they're a little less, I 00:03:42.338 --> 00:03:43.358 don't know where you want to call it. 00:03:43.358 --> 00:03:43.568 Right. 00:03:43.568 --> 00:03:44.528 But in the zone. 00:03:44.528 --> 00:03:44.738 Yeah. 00:03:44.738 --> 00:03:46.328 They're a little less in the zone when I do it. 00:03:46.328 --> 00:03:46.568 Right. 00:03:46.568 --> 00:03:48.518 So it's just been a little bit of a struggle to get 00:03:48.518 --> 00:03:49.628 through that stuff this week. 00:03:49.958 --> 00:03:50.438 What about you? 00:03:50.618 --> 00:03:52.508 Duke: I can totally riff on that actually. 00:03:52.915 --> 00:03:55.001 I relearned another important lesson. 00:03:55.001 --> 00:03:58.085 You know, those lessons that you just like relearn every, two years for 10 years, 00:03:58.685 --> 00:03:59.585 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:03:59.585 --> 00:03:59.705 Right. 00:03:59.705 --> 00:04:02.425 One of those things that you say I, I'm never going to make this mistake 00:04:02.425 --> 00:04:03.375 again, and then you proceed to. 00:04:03.805 --> 00:04:04.885 Duke: Or it's not just a mistake. 00:04:04.885 --> 00:04:05.845 It's just a truth. 00:04:05.875 --> 00:04:06.295 Right. 00:04:06.355 --> 00:04:10.595 And I'm developing an, gosh, I'm developing several custom apps right 00:04:10.595 --> 00:04:15.721 now, but one app in particular is it's kind of a mutation of something that 00:04:15.721 --> 00:04:19.671 they do very primitive, but it's like, what would level three of this look like? 00:04:19.911 --> 00:04:21.681 And so we're basically going all, all in. 00:04:22.115 --> 00:04:24.145 Functionality ServiceNow doesn't normally do. 00:04:24.545 --> 00:04:28.025 , they don't have the funds to get stuff that actually does this, 00:04:28.115 --> 00:04:29.165 so we're doing it in ServiceNow. 00:04:29.405 --> 00:04:30.425 It's a lot of fun. 00:04:30.845 --> 00:04:35.158 But what I'm relearning is that when you do something like that, 00:04:35.158 --> 00:04:41.141 it's so, so difficult to get the full picture of what the thing 00:04:41.141 --> 00:04:43.978 is gonna be without having tests. 00:04:44.668 --> 00:04:45.298 CJ: Okay. 00:04:45.298 --> 00:04:45.928 Duke: You know what I mean? 00:04:45.928 --> 00:04:48.988 And I guess, I guess it's just iterative development, agile development, 00:04:48.988 --> 00:04:50.068 whatever you want to call it. 00:04:50.458 --> 00:04:53.301 But look at this thing in the beginning, you're like, this is like a four week job. 00:04:53.301 --> 00:04:59.325 And it's just like a long time later, you're still like adding new stuff and 00:04:59.378 --> 00:05:03.745 stuff that is quote unquote simple, just pops out as being missing. 00:05:04.075 --> 00:05:05.245 Like, how could we forget that? 00:05:05.275 --> 00:05:07.075 Well it's, it's like a brand new thing. 00:05:07.115 --> 00:05:08.416 how should we have remembered that 00:05:09.365 --> 00:05:09.875 CJ: Right. 00:05:10.101 --> 00:05:13.601 Duke: that's what I'm kind of relearning is that the newer and more novel, the 00:05:13.601 --> 00:05:18.118 thing that you're putting on ServiceNow, the more absolutely critical it is to just 00:05:18.118 --> 00:05:23.155 have jam sessions with your stakeholders and just like, how do you feel about this? 00:05:23.793 --> 00:05:25.113 CJ: I mean, that's a really good point, right? 00:05:25.136 --> 00:05:27.206 when you're doing that iterative development, the sooner you 00:05:27.206 --> 00:05:30.086 can get stuff in front of your stakeholders and have them tell 00:05:30.091 --> 00:05:31.676 you yay or nay, essentially, right? 00:05:31.676 --> 00:05:32.026 Like the better. 00:05:32.156 --> 00:05:36.236 Off the project is like, developing inside of a vacuum is never a good idea. 00:05:36.236 --> 00:05:39.956 You gotta, you gotta let that thing get in the hands of the client, let somebody 00:05:39.961 --> 00:05:44.620 deal with it and somebody bust through the vacuum Of, of your own preconceptions. 00:05:44.980 --> 00:05:47.230 Duke: And like literally nobody's used this before, 00:05:47.590 --> 00:05:48.130 CJ: Yeah. 00:05:48.190 --> 00:05:48.490 Duke: right? 00:05:48.490 --> 00:05:51.880 So it's like, how do you even know at the start, did we even ask all the right 00:05:52.330 --> 00:05:54.610 questions to get the fullness of this app? 00:05:54.910 --> 00:05:57.550 And it's not like we're developing like Angry Birds or something on the 00:05:57.550 --> 00:06:02.170 mobile phone where it's like it does one thing exquisitely, no, everything in 00:06:02.170 --> 00:06:04.476 ServiceNow does like, five to 10 things. 00:06:04.673 --> 00:06:05.723 how do you even know you've. 00:06:06.320 --> 00:06:07.580 The fullness defined. 00:06:08.238 --> 00:06:12.388 CJ: So, uh, James Altucher has this, , concept he calls idea sex, right? 00:06:12.388 --> 00:06:16.348 And it's basically when you got two different or multiple different ideas 00:06:16.558 --> 00:06:21.748 that exists separately, and you combine them on some sort of intersectionality 00:06:21.748 --> 00:06:25.678 and that, and the intersection of those ideas form something great, right? 00:06:25.678 --> 00:06:28.111 So I look at this, what you're, what we're talking about here. 00:06:28.616 --> 00:06:32.996 From the perspective of you got this process and you have this technology, and 00:06:32.996 --> 00:06:38.366 now we combine them and they're, and in, in certain circumstances, like Nirvana 00:06:38.366 --> 00:06:40.736 happens with that combination, right? 00:06:40.736 --> 00:06:44.666 And you and the folks who are now looking at the product and understanding 00:06:44.671 --> 00:06:47.846 the product more and understanding their process and understanding 00:06:47.846 --> 00:06:49.586 now the technology more start. 00:06:50.136 --> 00:06:55.686 All of these huge ideas about what can be done and what should be done. 00:06:55.836 --> 00:06:59.796 And so maybe you had all of this ironed out and buttoned up before you guys 00:06:59.796 --> 00:07:01.716 started, but now they know right. 00:07:01.716 --> 00:07:06.680 Click everything and it changed the world and so I, that, that's how 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:07.926 I look at something like this too. 00:07:07.926 --> 00:07:11.946 Well, in terms of like making sure that you get your code, your product, your app 00:07:11.946 --> 00:07:13.686 in front of your, customer, as soon as. 00:07:14.465 --> 00:07:18.778 Duke: Man, that idea sex thing I did at Knowledge 15, I did a present 00:07:18.778 --> 00:07:22.918 presentation on innovation is Not Alchemy, and one of the things I 00:07:22.918 --> 00:07:28.888 talked about is having a repository to, to put all of your ideas in, right? 00:07:28.888 --> 00:07:32.928 Or concepts you wanna research, and then after that, like regularly 00:07:33.448 --> 00:07:35.548 recombine all of those things. 00:07:35.968 --> 00:07:36.388 CJ: Right. 00:07:37.648 --> 00:07:41.731 Duke: And I remember at the time it was, Michael SL Robotnik, you remember? 00:07:42.340 --> 00:07:42.760 CJ: I do 00:07:43.060 --> 00:07:44.200 Duke: Actually not past tense. 00:07:44.200 --> 00:07:46.810 The guy's still around, but I remember at 00:07:46.930 --> 00:07:48.010 CJ: one out for Michael. 00:07:50.333 --> 00:07:51.233 Duke: Hey, Michael's back. 00:07:51.233 --> 00:07:56.963 We can pour another one to celebrate Uh, good. 00:07:57.683 --> 00:07:58.133 All right. 00:07:58.138 --> 00:07:58.943 Cheers to Michael. 00:07:58.966 --> 00:08:02.836 he came from a customer and they had, basically, it was just at the point 00:08:02.836 --> 00:08:06.686 where I'm thinking like, what could Xbox achievements combined with ServiceNow? 00:08:07.591 --> 00:08:11.191 Does anything useful come outta that and then sure enough, a day later, Michael 00:08:11.191 --> 00:08:17.041 Snicks, like doing this case study where they gamified their IT support and they 00:08:17.041 --> 00:08:21.841 had points and badges and levels and stuff for your contributions it, or 00:08:21.846 --> 00:08:23.491 like revolutionized their help desk, 00:08:24.106 --> 00:08:24.316 CJ: kick 00:08:24.391 --> 00:08:28.761 Duke: was really cool because with these stuffy corporate attitudes and aesthetics 00:08:28.761 --> 00:08:30.411 and frameworks, like who would've. 00:08:31.176 --> 00:08:35.690 To even say, Hey, what can, video gaming teach us about our performance? 00:08:35.973 --> 00:08:36.603 CJ: Yeah. 00:08:36.693 --> 00:08:39.453 Duke: would've been laughed out of the room until somebody actually has 00:08:39.453 --> 00:08:41.253 the guts to do that recombination. 00:08:41.958 --> 00:08:46.368 CJ: Which, you know, in hindsight seems pretty obvious because when 00:08:46.368 --> 00:08:49.848 you think about it, like how many casinos are there in the world, right? 00:08:49.848 --> 00:08:50.808 Like there are a ton of them. 00:08:50.813 --> 00:08:52.818 And people love gambling, right? 00:08:52.818 --> 00:08:54.528 And people love playing, and that's gaming. 00:08:55.013 --> 00:08:56.603 it's called the gaming industry. 00:08:56.783 --> 00:09:01.723 Like how many, gaming consoles has, you know, Microsoft, Sony, uh, Nintendo sold 00:09:01.723 --> 00:09:04.183 over the past like 30, 40 years, right? 00:09:04.188 --> 00:09:05.563 Atari, all of them, right? 00:09:05.803 --> 00:09:07.423 So many games, right? 00:09:07.443 --> 00:09:08.703 like these things sell. 00:09:08.741 --> 00:09:10.391 by the boatload for a reason. 00:09:10.391 --> 00:09:13.818 And you know, ignoring them, I think society, has made a huge 00:09:13.818 --> 00:09:19.488 mistake in ignoring gaming as like a kids sing for far too long. 00:09:20.038 --> 00:09:22.168 Duke: it's what keeps us glued to our iPhones, right? 00:09:22.488 --> 00:09:23.448 CJ: Yeah, exactly. 00:09:23.453 --> 00:09:24.498 It's the same mechanism. 00:09:24.498 --> 00:09:25.548 Social media too. 00:09:26.808 --> 00:09:29.578 Duke: somebody's using that to ex, you know, to exploit your attention. 00:09:29.578 --> 00:09:29.818 So, 00:09:30.523 --> 00:09:32.233 CJ: Oh man, absolutely. 00:09:32.233 --> 00:09:33.733 I just read a great book on this. 00:09:33.770 --> 00:09:34.520 I will figure it out. 00:09:34.520 --> 00:09:36.440 We can put it in the show, in the show notes. 00:09:36.540 --> 00:09:39.510 , but it was about habit and oh, the Power of Habit by, uh, 00:09:39.780 --> 00:09:41.250 char Charles, uh, duh, hick. 00:09:41.490 --> 00:09:43.135 So I wrote for the, , New York Times. 00:09:43.355 --> 00:09:47.318 , it talks about like why we do what we do and how to change those things 00:09:47.318 --> 00:09:49.718 that we do with, that we're doing without, no, without thinking. 00:09:50.648 --> 00:09:50.888 Right. 00:09:50.888 --> 00:09:52.718 Like it's, oh, it's a phenomenal book. 00:09:52.718 --> 00:09:56.228 And once you read it and understand like what's driving you, you know, 00:09:56.228 --> 00:09:59.528 you can kind of use that to, to build better habits and get more productive. 00:09:59.618 --> 00:09:59.948 Awesome. 00:09:59.953 --> 00:10:00.968 But we should put it in show notes. 00:10:01.583 --> 00:10:02.833 Duke: For sure you got a link to it. 00:10:03.038 --> 00:10:03.308 CJ: Yep. 00:10:03.338 --> 00:10:03.908 Absolutely. 00:10:04.148 --> 00:10:04.958 So what about you, duke? 00:10:05.436 --> 00:10:09.061 Duke: Um, this week, I guess it's less about ServiceNow specifically and 00:10:09.061 --> 00:10:12.367 more about, personal performance and, 00:10:12.682 --> 00:10:13.172 CJ: Okay. 00:10:13.344 --> 00:10:17.844 Duke: and how context switching is just the ruin of performance 00:10:19.434 --> 00:10:20.454 CJ: Yeah, go on 00:10:23.154 --> 00:10:24.984 Duke: And I kind of got into one of those things, right? 00:10:24.984 --> 00:10:27.774 Where it's, it's the big thing about being an independent consultant, right? 00:10:27.774 --> 00:10:31.924 It's like things don't slot in 40 hour intervals really nicely. 00:10:32.314 --> 00:10:35.464 And so I'm in the process of like wrapping some up and ramping some on, 00:10:35.464 --> 00:10:39.851 and on paper it's just like I have to do x number of things in a day, right? 00:10:39.851 --> 00:10:42.221 But if the X things are from completely. 00:10:43.106 --> 00:10:48.836 Ends of the spectrum, it's way heavier than just four things. 00:10:48.836 --> 00:10:49.736 Does that make sense? 00:10:50.696 --> 00:10:51.056 CJ: It. 00:10:51.236 --> 00:10:52.646 Yes, absolutely. 00:10:52.826 --> 00:10:57.956 Duke: Like if I work for customer X and I have 1, 2, 3, 4 things to do, or 00:10:57.956 --> 00:11:02.396 I have four customers and one things to do for each, the one to do for each 00:11:02.396 --> 00:11:06.506 of the cust that like, that's second scenario I'd say is more than double the 00:11:06.506 --> 00:11:11.936 amount of like mental fuel to manage. 00:11:12.851 --> 00:11:13.631 That make sense? 00:11:13.921 --> 00:11:15.061 CJ: It absolutely does. 00:11:15.061 --> 00:11:15.331 Right? 00:11:15.361 --> 00:11:17.644 Because you're now in this context, right? 00:11:17.674 --> 00:11:19.954 Of this dealing with this one customer. 00:11:20.104 --> 00:11:22.365 And you might have five things, but you can peel 'em off 00:11:22.370 --> 00:11:24.394 because there is a next right? 00:11:24.394 --> 00:11:25.894 The, it's the power of next. 00:11:25.894 --> 00:11:26.074 Right? 00:11:26.074 --> 00:11:28.504 And maybe I should coin this, but somebody probably smarter 00:11:28.504 --> 00:11:29.704 than me probably already has. 00:11:29.914 --> 00:11:32.571 But what I've noticed too, and I, I, you know, I, I've mentioned before 00:11:32.571 --> 00:11:34.041 on I show I have d h, D, right? 00:11:34.041 --> 00:11:35.691 And so one of the things. 00:11:35.886 --> 00:11:41.646 For me, it's like the power of next is something that I try to weaponize is by 00:11:41.706 --> 00:11:46.926 having a stack of readily available tasks that I can draw upon in the context that 00:11:46.926 --> 00:11:49.266 I'm in and which will keep me going. 00:11:49.536 --> 00:11:52.836 But if that stack is empty, right, if there's nothing to draw on and that 00:11:52.836 --> 00:11:57.596 next queue, that's when I find myself spacing and finding it hard to go 00:11:57.596 --> 00:12:01.796 to the next task, whatever, and even decide what the next task is, right? 00:12:01.801 --> 00:12:03.026 Or know what that is. 00:12:03.741 --> 00:12:06.771 and you know, and it sounds a lot like what you're talking about now. 00:12:06.921 --> 00:12:08.121 Sorry, I didn't mean I jumped in there. 00:12:08.121 --> 00:12:12.111 I kind of , you know, but, you know, it resonates really, really hard with me. 00:12:12.301 --> 00:12:15.764 Really, uh, really strongly with me because, that whole context shifting 00:12:15.764 --> 00:12:20.804 thing for me is, is really, one things that sa SAPs a lot of my, productivity. 00:12:22.089 --> 00:12:24.869 Duke: Yeah, I just, I'm gonna be just like commit to being way 00:12:24.869 --> 00:12:26.489 more careful about it this year. 00:12:26.939 --> 00:12:31.259 . And this is just a lesson too, because this week, like three or four people 00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:35.146 have asked me to like, Hey, connect me with recruiters cuz I'm really 00:12:35.146 --> 00:12:39.646 interested in, hyper flexible part-time work that I could do after hours. 00:12:40.021 --> 00:12:40.681 CJ: Okay guys. 00:12:40.756 --> 00:12:47.442 Duke: And it's just like, but it isn't Or at least like, I don't know if I, if I'm 00:12:47.442 --> 00:12:50.742 the one of the blind spot here, but I'm just like, do those even really exist? 00:12:50.802 --> 00:12:52.076 Those, feel like unicorns. 00:12:52.472 --> 00:12:54.542 CJ: So I, you know, I feel like they should exist. 00:12:54.547 --> 00:12:57.482 I think that they don't exist because people are still kind 00:12:57.487 --> 00:12:59.792 of glued even in 2023, right? 00:12:59.792 --> 00:13:02.912 People are still glued a little bit to the boots in the seat 00:13:02.912 --> 00:13:04.292 kind of methodology, right? 00:13:04.292 --> 00:13:05.792 and not, and even if boots in this. 00:13:05.912 --> 00:13:08.462 Seat is, seat is now in your home office. 00:13:08.462 --> 00:13:11.852 People are still glued to nine to five business hours, right? 00:13:11.882 --> 00:13:15.842 Where you should be available during the conventional time when business 00:13:15.842 --> 00:13:22.652 is done, except that what we do in a lot of cases can be flexed outside of 00:13:22.772 --> 00:13:24.662 conventional business hours, right? 00:13:24.842 --> 00:13:28.682 So if you have somebody who's working a day job and instead of them starting 00:13:28.682 --> 00:13:32.852 a side project, would just like to take up some additional ServiceNow work, to 00:13:32.852 --> 00:13:34.412 me, that makes a whole lot of sense. 00:13:34.412 --> 00:13:34.682 But I. 00:13:35.082 --> 00:13:40.482 Find that, and I have found this too, from just talking to potential clients and 00:13:40.912 --> 00:13:44.802 existing clients over the years is really difficult to make that work in practice. 00:13:45.862 --> 00:13:46.492 Duke: Yeah. 00:13:46.552 --> 00:13:50.692 And the more I struggle with things like my own context switching fatigue, 00:13:51.292 --> 00:13:57.472 the more I, the more it underscores my idea that these unicorn, I'm not 00:13:57.472 --> 00:14:00.472 saying they don't exist, I'm just saying they are, they're unicorns. 00:14:00.472 --> 00:14:02.152 They're, they're super rare. 00:14:02.762 --> 00:14:03.092 CJ: Right. 00:14:03.492 --> 00:14:08.317 Duke: it's just because, If they could see you at the time of day you choose to 00:14:08.317 --> 00:14:10.087 work, would they want to pay the money? 00:14:10.417 --> 00:14:10.657 Right. 00:14:10.662 --> 00:14:16.274 So I just finished an eight hour day at my day job and then, I got dinner ready. 00:14:16.364 --> 00:14:20.887 I helped the kids with their homework, took a breath, family time, got my 00:14:20.887 --> 00:14:24.347 kids tucked in, and it's 8:39 PM. 00:14:25.882 --> 00:14:30.862 And am I like rough and ready to go and do some like real significant 00:14:30.862 --> 00:14:36.322 troubleshooting or are we like being real here, maybe being a bit 00:14:36.322 --> 00:14:41.902 antagonistic or am I just trying to monetize my least valuable hours? 00:14:44.482 --> 00:14:47.242 my very, very least monitor, you know what I mean? 00:14:47.767 --> 00:14:48.277 CJ: I do. 00:14:48.307 --> 00:14:49.207 I do, but I think it. 00:14:49.412 --> 00:14:54.277 Duke: and if the, and if the work could be, at that time with that, after the, 00:14:54.277 --> 00:14:59.557 you know, in that time by somebody whose mind has already gone through a full day's 00:14:59.562 --> 00:15:04.567 worth of cognitive work, why wouldn't they just ship that offshore immediately? 00:15:04.929 --> 00:15:08.062 CJ: What I say is because everybody's different, I'm an early bird, 00:15:08.092 --> 00:15:11.062 I'm up at four o'clock in the morning in the wintertime, right? 00:15:11.062 --> 00:15:14.599 And, the work that I do from four to seven, it's just as valuable as 00:15:14.599 --> 00:15:17.819 if I had done it from 10 to one, and yet it ain't, you know, and it 00:15:17.819 --> 00:15:19.229 got done and the client is happy. 00:15:19.499 --> 00:15:25.459 , So I, I'd say that, if you can manage to deliver quality work by doing it in 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:30.079 unconventional times of the day, then I think, there should be a market for that. 00:15:30.289 --> 00:15:35.839 But the hack that I'm thinking that probably exists is maybe folks should 00:15:35.839 --> 00:15:39.919 be looking to consider themselves offshore to other countries, right? 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:44.484 We're working hours are dovetailing with those, , late night 00:15:44.484 --> 00:15:45.924 hours or early morning hours. 00:15:46.984 --> 00:15:47.109 , right? 00:15:47.109 --> 00:15:48.849 Like maybe you need a European client. 00:15:50.014 --> 00:15:53.304 where you can then, you know, at 10 o'clock at night, maybe you're now, 00:15:54.204 --> 00:15:56.964 and forgive me on the time zones, I don't feel like doing the middle maths. 00:15:56.964 --> 00:15:59.574 I'm figuring out what times people are open, but you know what I mean, right? 00:15:59.574 --> 00:16:02.394 so in AsiaPac, right, like three o'clock in the afternoon, it's 00:16:02.574 --> 00:16:05.484 typically about the time that they're starting to get up and get online. 00:16:05.694 --> 00:16:09.804 So like 7, 8, 9 in the evening, if you're doing work there, you're still 00:16:09.804 --> 00:16:11.154 in the middle of their business day. 00:16:11.624 --> 00:16:11.954 Right. 00:16:11.954 --> 00:16:15.704 And so if you're doing work for an Asia Pac company, maybe that's how you 00:16:15.704 --> 00:16:20.044 align that, those few hours of, off cycle time that you want to monetize, 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.789 Duke: I'm glad we did this jam session thing because I think we can riff on this 00:16:23.789 --> 00:16:25.589 one seriously, and I'll play the bad guy 00:16:26.074 --> 00:16:26.694 CJ: go for it. 00:16:27.079 --> 00:16:31.769 Duke: Uh, Because this, like, this actually scratches a lot of the 00:16:32.199 --> 00:16:33.539 questions that I get asked, right? 00:16:33.539 --> 00:16:39.059 So number one is, can you connect me with jobs where I can basically sign 00:16:39.059 --> 00:16:43.109 in whenever I want, do as much hours as I want, whenever you know what I mean? 00:16:43.199 --> 00:16:44.789 The, the unicorn customers. 00:16:45.059 --> 00:16:48.059 And I don't, I don't believe that those exist at scale. 00:16:48.359 --> 00:16:51.269 And I think it's a bad idea, even in your case where it's like, okay, you 00:16:51.269 --> 00:16:55.259 get up at six, but now you're given, or whatever, you start work at six. 00:16:57.164 --> 00:16:58.844 Five to seven, you get 00:16:59.349 --> 00:16:59.839 CJ: Yeah. 00:16:59.864 --> 00:17:02.444 Duke: two solid hours of, but those are your best times. 00:17:02.444 --> 00:17:03.854 So you're taking it from somewhere. 00:17:04.244 --> 00:17:07.484 That means another one of your accounts gets your ass hours. 00:17:08.999 --> 00:17:09.539 CJ: Okay. 00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:10.409 That's a, that's an interesting 00:17:10.484 --> 00:17:10.904 Duke: what I mean? 00:17:10.904 --> 00:17:14.444 It's like, okay, you, you put 'em in the morning, but I just go on this principle. 00:17:14.444 --> 00:17:17.984 Like you, you have some amount of cognitive load in a day. 00:17:18.104 --> 00:17:19.754 that's your maximum cognitive load. 00:17:19.754 --> 00:17:20.054 Never. 00:17:20.054 --> 00:17:24.794 And , at a specific point, say it's six hours, eight hours, whatever, four hours, 00:17:24.794 --> 00:17:28.994 maybe even, all other work diminishes after that if you're doing cognitive work. 00:17:29.834 --> 00:17:31.104 And why shouldn't we believe that? 00:17:31.104 --> 00:17:34.524 lumberjacks only have a certain amount of time, they can strain their body 00:17:34.524 --> 00:17:36.834 doing lumberjack works, oil rig workers. 00:17:37.464 --> 00:17:39.654 Our brains are no different than that. 00:17:39.744 --> 00:17:41.814 you can't flex that muscle all day long. 00:17:42.234 --> 00:17:42.684 CJ: Right. 00:17:42.984 --> 00:17:46.737 Duke: And so let's say there's leftover hours somewhere, who are 00:17:46.737 --> 00:17:48.357 you given the leftover hours to? 00:17:49.977 --> 00:17:50.427 CJ: Yeah. 00:17:50.427 --> 00:17:50.697 I'm 00:17:51.447 --> 00:17:53.127 Duke: And there's another point you just made too. 00:17:53.127 --> 00:17:56.382 It was like, Oh, the internationalness, right? 00:17:56.412 --> 00:17:58.092 Like, oh, I'll just get a customer somewhere else. 00:17:58.092 --> 00:18:01.932 Because a lot of people wanna just say, I wanna live over here and 00:18:01.932 --> 00:18:06.942 I wanna do contract work and bill US rates to us customers, but I 00:18:06.942 --> 00:18:09.312 wanna live in like wherever, right? 00:18:10.062 --> 00:18:11.562 Cheapest cost of living in the entire world. 00:18:11.726 --> 00:18:12.776 you can't just do. 00:18:13.622 --> 00:18:13.922 CJ: Why not? 00:18:14.382 --> 00:18:17.122 Duke: Well, because it's the same as working for like, I, think the 00:18:17.122 --> 00:18:21.186 companies that want to, the companies that want to offshore, right? 00:18:21.186 --> 00:18:23.286 There's no question companies want to offshore. 00:18:23.826 --> 00:18:27.599 Um, but when they do it, they don't say, oh, find five a hundred, find a 00:18:27.604 --> 00:18:31.159 hundred independent people for us to, connect with and build contracts with. 00:18:31.159 --> 00:18:36.469 No, they pick one like vendor of offshore resources. 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:39.169 Then it's basically like one interaction they have to. 00:18:40.429 --> 00:18:42.499 Your people aren't doing good enough, great. 00:18:42.499 --> 00:18:45.349 We'll add five more or we'll crack the whip harder or whatever. 00:18:45.769 --> 00:18:49.669 And so, but they don't go and say, find me one person to do this. 00:18:49.729 --> 00:18:50.779 I just don't think they think like that. 00:18:51.242 --> 00:18:53.822 CJ: yes, I could probably agree with you that I don't think they think like that, 00:18:53.822 --> 00:18:57.242 but I wouldn't, wouldn't you think they'd have a much better experience if they did? 00:18:57.746 --> 00:19:01.586 , when you think about like, and, and I, and I'm speaking from, from the 00:19:01.586 --> 00:19:03.386 entirety of the IT experience, right? 00:19:03.386 --> 00:19:07.046 Because not just, you know, all shoring from the ServiceNow perspective, 00:19:07.051 --> 00:19:10.676 but I, you know, general IT as well, and I've been, I've been in 00:19:10.676 --> 00:19:14.276 situations where, you know, a all shoring company has been brought in 00:19:14.539 --> 00:19:16.429 and the quality is often different. 00:19:16.632 --> 00:19:21.882 even when we, um, when I've seen like some of the better offshoring companies 00:19:21.882 --> 00:19:25.896 get brought in, , you know, there's, there's still like a difference between, 00:19:26.286 --> 00:19:30.246 you know, your permanent folks and the ssha folks, or a communications 00:19:30.246 --> 00:19:34.116 barrier sometimes, or, you know, other, other things that contribute to a, a 00:19:34.116 --> 00:19:38.226 less than baseline experience of the people that you might be replacing. 00:19:38.509 --> 00:19:40.459 and so in those situations, right? 00:19:40.832 --> 00:19:44.824 why do you need to actually why continue to throw the throw? 00:19:44.824 --> 00:19:48.421 Why continue to follow the same existing paradigm that's not working and why can't 00:19:48.421 --> 00:19:53.147 I see, and I I think this way because I'm independent consultant, right? 00:19:53.147 --> 00:19:56.564 And, my, what I'm selling is value, right? 00:19:56.672 --> 00:19:57.897 I, I'm not selling hours. 00:19:58.097 --> 00:19:59.867 You know, like that's how I get paid. 00:20:00.842 --> 00:20:04.322 Duke: Yeah, I'm, I think you're a different cat though, right? 00:20:04.322 --> 00:20:07.642 Like you, you've reached a certain point in your career where you can't 00:20:07.642 --> 00:20:09.532 pitch it that way, but even so, okay. 00:20:09.877 --> 00:20:10.237 CJ: Okay. 00:20:10.912 --> 00:20:14.422 Duke: like the companies that can afford ServiceNow on 00:20:14.422 --> 00:20:15.622 average are larger companies. 00:20:15.622 --> 00:20:16.672 We can agree on this, right? 00:20:17.647 --> 00:20:17.917 Okay. 00:20:17.917 --> 00:20:23.467 And like when you decide, like let's say the ServiceNow owner is really open and 00:20:23.467 --> 00:20:28.057 says, I need to do X, and there's one person that's all the way across the, 00:20:28.057 --> 00:20:32.437 the world in this other country, and I want to pick them to get this stuff done. 00:20:33.967 --> 00:20:37.537 Okay, so now you're at like a Fortune 500, fortune 100 company 00:20:38.024 --> 00:20:42.624 and, and they're like, okay, do they just, they don't mail cash to that. 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:48.369 You know, so how do you get this person paid? 00:20:48.369 --> 00:20:54.189 Well, we have to know exactly how their country allows them to get paid, right? 00:20:54.189 --> 00:20:56.866 So this person's like, this person's out in the Ivory Coast. 00:20:57.016 --> 00:21:00.429 What do I know about the Ivory Coast and what, what tax? 00:21:00.489 --> 00:21:01.899 How much do I have to send to their government? 00:21:02.199 --> 00:21:03.669 Do I have to send anything to the state that they. 00:21:04.794 --> 00:21:07.224 Do I have, do I have to provide some kind of benefit because 00:21:07.224 --> 00:21:08.334 I'm paying them a certain way? 00:21:08.507 --> 00:21:13.187 they basically have to adopt another country's legal way of paying you 00:21:13.587 --> 00:21:14.697 CJ: Why, why would they know? 00:21:15.507 --> 00:21:15.747 Right? 00:21:15.747 --> 00:21:15.927 Like 00:21:15.957 --> 00:21:17.487 Duke: well, they probably won't. 00:21:17.487 --> 00:21:18.207 That's the thing. 00:21:18.207 --> 00:21:23.037 So it's basically like you, you know, you're in the Ivory coast and somebody 00:21:23.037 --> 00:21:28.167 says, and the US says, okay, Corey like, 'em and stack 'em, do all this work. 00:21:28.227 --> 00:21:30.267 And then you're like, great, how do I get paid for my a hundred hours? 00:21:30.267 --> 00:21:34.902 And I'm like, uh, I don't know, maybe their co their vendor management 00:21:34.982 --> 00:21:36.032 part of the company doesn't know. 00:21:36.512 --> 00:21:41.012 And furthermore, they're basically filling out contracts for like massive right? 00:21:41.792 --> 00:21:43.262 A hundred thousand dollars at a time. 00:21:43.262 --> 00:21:46.082 And then your contract might be a rounding error for that. 00:21:46.082 --> 00:21:50.012 And so basically just for somebody to buy you, you personally 00:21:50.282 --> 00:21:52.112 might not be worth the effort. 00:21:52.682 --> 00:21:56.192 Cause procurement's gonna put at the bottom of the list just to get 00:21:56.192 --> 00:21:57.472 you in a position where they can. 00:21:58.577 --> 00:21:59.057 CJ: Yeah. 00:21:59.057 --> 00:22:00.107 And that's the problem, right? 00:22:00.167 --> 00:22:05.704 and, and that's why there's a typically a difference in quality too, right? 00:22:05.704 --> 00:22:06.844 Like, you know, when you. 00:22:07.124 --> 00:22:07.874 for me, right? 00:22:07.874 --> 00:22:12.884 Like any company hiring me, I make it really easy for 00:22:12.884 --> 00:22:14.114 them to hire me, number one. 00:22:14.294 --> 00:22:17.747 But, you know, there's also the, um, let me think on this one. 00:22:17.837 --> 00:22:21.107 So it's a, so if a company wants to hire me, so let me 00:22:21.107 --> 00:22:22.277 put it to you this way, right? 00:22:22.327 --> 00:22:26.797 , I'm more valuable than a team of most offshore resources, right? 00:22:26.797 --> 00:22:28.507 I didn't notice, I didn't say one person, right? 00:22:28.512 --> 00:22:29.167 I said a team. 00:22:29.344 --> 00:22:31.581 and that's both from a, development standpoint and an 00:22:31.581 --> 00:22:32.901 architectural standpoint, right? 00:22:32.901 --> 00:22:35.781 , but if you're looking for that and I happen to just be 00:22:35.781 --> 00:22:37.731 working outta Jamaica, right? 00:22:37.731 --> 00:22:42.576 Like, and you, and you rob yourself of that experience like, To me that , that's 00:22:42.576 --> 00:22:44.166 a negative on the company, right? 00:22:44.166 --> 00:22:48.196 Like you're losing, , you're losing value there, or you losing generated 00:22:48.196 --> 00:22:49.906 value for the company, right? 00:22:49.906 --> 00:22:52.366 Because you're inflexible with the way that you do business. 00:22:52.366 --> 00:22:54.016 Now, that's the theory. 00:22:54.046 --> 00:22:57.526 The reality of this is you would absolutely not know I'm in Jamaica, right? 00:22:57.526 --> 00:23:00.046 Or you might know that I'm in Jamaica, but you wouldn't know 00:23:00.051 --> 00:23:01.156 that I work outta Jamaica. 00:23:01.506 --> 00:23:03.996 You might just happen to know I'm on vacation and I'm, 00:23:04.116 --> 00:23:05.466 and it's a working vacation. 00:23:05.706 --> 00:23:09.036 The my bank account would be a US bank account in the US Bank. 00:23:09.366 --> 00:23:14.206 All of my, , tax information would be all US information, . And I might not even 00:23:14.211 --> 00:23:16.732 be in Jamaica long for, for a long time. 00:23:16.737 --> 00:23:19.372 I might be happy to be there for a month and I might be going 00:23:19.372 --> 00:23:21.592 to like Antigua a month later. 00:23:21.592 --> 00:23:24.322 And it, and that just might be my lifestyle, right? 00:23:24.322 --> 00:23:25.942 Like a more digital nomad. 00:23:26.167 --> 00:23:29.137 Travel the world, stay in these places where the cost of living 00:23:29.137 --> 00:23:30.667 is a lot lower than the us. 00:23:31.177 --> 00:23:33.217 All I need is an internet connection, right? 00:23:33.247 --> 00:23:40.087 And you pay me what, uh, whatever we negotiate you, you send it to me as 00:23:40.087 --> 00:23:44.617 if I still, because I maintain the US address, you send it to me as if I still 00:23:44.797 --> 00:23:46.627 live in the US and everybody's happy. 00:23:47.102 --> 00:23:50.102 Duke: Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying it doesn't happen or can't happen, 00:23:51.002 --> 00:23:53.809 I'm just saying like, like I'm dealing with this right now. 00:23:54.399 --> 00:23:57.606 Somebody wants me to come in and do kind of a, uh, prepare them for a 00:23:57.606 --> 00:23:59.226 greenfield re architecture, right? 00:23:59.226 --> 00:24:01.986 They got the seven year rich, let's just trash this thing and start over. 00:24:02.271 --> 00:24:02.781 CJ: Kick ass. 00:24:03.036 --> 00:24:05.376 Duke: And, but they're basically right out front. 00:24:05.376 --> 00:24:06.726 They're like, yeah, we want you. 00:24:06.786 --> 00:24:07.866 Who can you work through? 00:24:08.256 --> 00:24:13.146 Because their procurement is not gonna st is not gonna take one second to 00:24:13.146 --> 00:24:18.382 like, sign a contract with, Robert Fedor of Chicago, Illinois, 66 30 00:24:19.176 --> 00:24:19.626 CJ: Right. 00:24:19.866 --> 00:24:20.646 Duke: You know what I mean? 00:24:20.826 --> 00:24:21.336 CJ: I do. 00:24:21.396 --> 00:24:22.626 I do absolutely know what you mean. 00:24:22.626 --> 00:24:22.956 Yeah. 00:24:23.676 --> 00:24:26.826 Duke: Even if they did take the time, I would never pass their 00:24:26.826 --> 00:24:28.429 vendor standards to be this. 00:24:28.429 --> 00:24:31.279 So basically they're telling me like, align yourself with some big 00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:36.799 company whose paper you can reside on, or this thing is a wash even 00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:38.539 though you know we really want you. 00:24:39.484 --> 00:24:39.814 CJ: Yeah. 00:24:41.449 --> 00:24:43.339 Duke: So it's just, 00:24:44.434 --> 00:24:44.944 CJ: I agree. 00:24:45.214 --> 00:24:48.394 Like those, those companies, you know, and a lot of companies really, it's 00:24:48.394 --> 00:24:50.614 not just those companies, you're right. 00:24:50.614 --> 00:24:53.524 There's a lot of companies who are not gonna take the time out. 00:24:53.524 --> 00:24:57.904 once they understand that, the nature of what's going on to, to deal with it. 00:24:58.234 --> 00:25:00.394 So that's a good, that's a good, that's a good point. 00:25:00.474 --> 00:25:03.894 , I don't know, but I, I do feel like it's a missed opportunity. 00:25:04.194 --> 00:25:04.584 Right. 00:25:05.979 --> 00:25:09.469 Yeah, I can keep it working for, for individuals. 00:25:09.739 --> 00:25:11.329 Maybe this isn't a scalable idea. 00:25:11.569 --> 00:25:16.099 Maybe this doesn't work for like thousands or tens of thousands of people, right? 00:25:16.099 --> 00:25:18.409 But it can certainly work for 10 or a hundred people, 00:25:19.684 --> 00:25:19.894 Duke: Yeah. 00:25:19.894 --> 00:25:25.414 To me it's like, I wish it could be different, but then it's like, maybe 00:25:25.414 --> 00:25:26.914 it's not different for a reason. 00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:28.489 CJ: right? 00:25:28.654 --> 00:25:28.954 , Duke: yeah. 00:25:28.954 --> 00:25:32.794 Anyways, it's an interesting thought process anyway. 00:25:33.649 --> 00:25:34.189 CJ: Yeah. 00:25:34.249 --> 00:25:34.489 Yeah. 00:25:35.029 --> 00:25:35.749 You know, and. 00:25:35.859 --> 00:25:39.416 I think it works for, individuals who are out there listening to the show 00:25:39.416 --> 00:25:43.072 right now, maybe it doesn't work for a thousand or an ecosystem, right? 00:25:43.072 --> 00:25:46.672 So maybe you can't build an ecosystem off the back of this idea. 00:25:46.677 --> 00:25:51.431 But if you one person is listen or are listening to this, And you're 00:25:51.436 --> 00:25:54.731 thinking, I would like to pick up a few extra hours in my off cycles. 00:25:54.731 --> 00:25:55.031 Right? 00:25:55.031 --> 00:25:59.201 And those off off cycles happen to align with prime European 00:25:59.201 --> 00:26:00.281 business working hours. 00:26:00.286 --> 00:26:03.071 And I say European as if it's one time zone as many of them. 00:26:03.191 --> 00:26:06.941 But pick a country and then pick a time zone and you happen to align 00:26:06.946 --> 00:26:10.691 with one of those and they happen to need ServiceNow work, right? 00:26:10.691 --> 00:26:13.661 Then boom, Bob's your uncle and do it. 00:26:14.021 --> 00:26:15.371 And I think you could make it work. 00:26:15.411 --> 00:26:18.801 what I probably wouldn't try to build a career on it though, and, but maybe you. 00:26:19.639 --> 00:26:20.269 Duke: Yeah. 00:26:20.329 --> 00:26:23.689 Um, yeah, I just, I hate being the bear of bad news, right? 00:26:23.689 --> 00:26:26.179 Like, cuz people ask me this all the time and I'm like, I wish you well. 00:26:26.179 --> 00:26:28.309 It's just like, this is not how things work, right? 00:26:28.309 --> 00:26:30.319 Or not how things are optimized to work. 00:26:31.244 --> 00:26:31.604 CJ: Yeah. 00:26:31.784 --> 00:26:34.634 Well, you know, let me, and let me ran on this a little bit too, right? 00:26:34.634 --> 00:26:37.964 Because this has exposed this to me, like the lack of understanding 00:26:37.964 --> 00:26:41.944 of, business value that's inherent in the IT space, right? 00:26:41.949 --> 00:26:46.809 Like so when companies are hiring consultants, and say a in, in a 00:26:46.809 --> 00:26:50.619 lot of different spaces when a company brings in a Accenture right? 00:26:50.829 --> 00:26:57.919 They're not expecting Accenture to sit in a cubicle 40 hours a week, and 00:26:57.919 --> 00:27:02.899 have that green line button going from eight to four, eight to five, right? 00:27:02.899 --> 00:27:03.919 that's not happening. 00:27:04.392 --> 00:27:07.452 I mean, and when it is happening, that's like negotiated upfront. 00:27:07.722 --> 00:27:11.112 Most of the time, Accenture's telling them this is gonna be the output. 00:27:11.617 --> 00:27:14.778 Of this project that we're signing up for, and the company's just 00:27:14.783 --> 00:27:18.007 waiting on that output because they appreciate and understand the value 00:27:18.247 --> 00:27:19.957 that Accenture brings to the table. 00:27:20.167 --> 00:27:20.527 Right. 00:27:21.377 --> 00:27:26.427 , you know, and I think what we see a lot is that con that companies don't hire 00:27:26.427 --> 00:27:30.207 service down resources and understand the value that's being generated 00:27:30.207 --> 00:27:31.887 by the, for the business, right? 00:27:31.887 --> 00:27:36.377 They still think of this as almost, you know, staff ag butts in seats, right? 00:27:36.567 --> 00:27:37.577 I need to see your green. 00:27:37.917 --> 00:27:41.307 teams icon lit up to make sure that I know that you're actually doing something. 00:27:41.307 --> 00:27:44.247 It's like, no, you know that I'm doing something, you know, the valuable I'm 00:27:44.247 --> 00:27:47.997 doing because you actually see the code and somebody can use it and it works. 00:27:48.327 --> 00:27:51.837 And the process that you have trouble with after you hire me, you 00:27:51.867 --> 00:27:53.577 no longer have any trouble with it. 00:27:54.582 --> 00:27:58.859 Duke: Yeah, that's, I like, I gotta underscore that that is not the 00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:01.326 most common type of ServiceNow work. 00:28:02.051 --> 00:28:02.541 CJ: Yeah. 00:28:02.586 --> 00:28:07.656 Duke: That that whole, like I'm providing a business outcome to you is kind of a, 00:28:08.089 --> 00:28:10.279 it's a solution consultant mentality. 00:28:11.629 --> 00:28:14.689 And it's best leverage when you can say like, I don't know how to do this 00:28:14.689 --> 00:28:17.029 so well, like an almost fixed rate it, 00:28:17.609 --> 00:28:18.749 CJ: Well, that's kind of what it is. 00:28:18.869 --> 00:28:24.379 Like it is, it is almost that it's, it is a, , fixed rate, , project that 00:28:24.379 --> 00:28:28.429 you happen to break up , and bill as like time and materials or hourly. 00:28:28.434 --> 00:28:28.729 Right. 00:28:28.766 --> 00:28:33.206 and because again, the mentality of the industry in general is one that 00:28:33.206 --> 00:28:37.959 doesn't necessarily tolerate the value billing sort of, um, uh, method. 00:28:38.749 --> 00:28:38.929 right? 00:28:38.929 --> 00:28:41.209 Like , there it isn't aligned to outcomes. 00:28:41.329 --> 00:28:43.489 It's aligned to bust seats, right? 00:28:43.489 --> 00:28:46.909 Like, you know, you spent six hours in this business rule, right? 00:28:47.329 --> 00:28:49.039 Who cares about the business rule? 00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:51.806 Duke, like you didn't hire me. 00:28:51.806 --> 00:28:54.716 Like I think you think like companies, I think they think they 00:28:54.716 --> 00:28:56.126 hired me to build a business rule. 00:28:57.181 --> 00:28:59.131 But that's not really what they hired me for. 00:28:59.131 --> 00:29:02.281 They hired me to take ServiceNow and make money with it for them. 00:29:02.611 --> 00:29:02.881 Right? 00:29:02.881 --> 00:29:04.201 that's why they hire me. 00:29:04.681 --> 00:29:07.981 So it's like whatever that process is, you know, asset 00:29:07.981 --> 00:29:09.931 management, for example, right? 00:29:09.931 --> 00:29:12.241 Like they didn't hire me to come in here and build business 00:29:12.246 --> 00:29:13.591 rules around asset management. 00:29:13.741 --> 00:29:16.921 They hired me to build a really consistent, efficient, and 00:29:16.921 --> 00:29:19.771 scalable process for them in asset management that's gonna. 00:29:20.136 --> 00:29:24.906 Take their as management staff and to a certain degree, their op degree, their 00:29:24.906 --> 00:29:26.976 operational staff internally, right. 00:29:27.156 --> 00:29:31.716 And make them more efficient so that they lose less ac, ac, assets, right? 00:29:31.716 --> 00:29:35.526 So that they are, they stay on, time with, um, returning their leases, right? 00:29:35.526 --> 00:29:37.992 And, and get new, hardware and software in as they. 00:29:38.317 --> 00:29:41.047 They cut down on the amount of, uh, software asset license 00:29:41.047 --> 00:29:42.097 spending they're doing. 00:29:42.097 --> 00:29:46.867 . Because maybe, you know, you, your, um, licensed for 15,000 windows installed 00:29:46.867 --> 00:29:50.827 and you really only got 5,000 people since 2008, but you didn't know. 00:29:51.052 --> 00:29:55.072 Duke: they gotta, they have to have, like, they have to have a way to gauge 00:29:55.282 --> 00:29:56.872 the cost and the work though, right? 00:29:56.872 --> 00:30:00.682 So you can either come in and say, I do this for a hundred thousand flat rate, 00:30:01.117 --> 00:30:01.507 CJ: Yeah. 00:30:01.942 --> 00:30:03.082 Duke: And they're down for that. 00:30:03.612 --> 00:30:07.392 , or like the only other alternative like that is to count hours. 00:30:08.232 --> 00:30:11.692 CJ: Yeah, well, I, I think it's in intrinsic upon the, , the 00:30:11.692 --> 00:30:14.812 consultant also to know the value that you bring to the, uh, project. 00:30:14.872 --> 00:30:16.822 Duke: and here's another thing that I learned through s SPM 00:30:17.692 --> 00:30:21.762 is that the different types of labor matter to finance. 00:30:22.747 --> 00:30:26.217 So Robert Fedor, building the business rule is a different 00:30:26.217 --> 00:30:30.657 financial transaction than Robert Fedor training a room full of people 00:30:31.802 --> 00:30:32.492 CJ: Fair enough. 00:30:32.547 --> 00:30:34.587 Duke: because that business rule is a thing that exists now. 00:30:34.587 --> 00:30:35.337 It's an asset, 00:30:35.772 --> 00:30:36.192 CJ: Right. 00:30:36.447 --> 00:30:40.587 Duke: abstract sense, it's an asset and therefore like they can depreciate 00:30:40.617 --> 00:30:42.897 the labor on that part of the project. 00:30:43.557 --> 00:30:46.741 So I have some sympathy to like, well, what? 00:30:46.771 --> 00:30:48.661 What are you spending your hours on? 00:30:49.291 --> 00:30:50.941 Even if it is the components, 00:30:52.426 --> 00:30:53.086 CJ: Yeah. 00:30:53.086 --> 00:30:58.429 I think we, I think we will, we will have to disagree on that dude, cuz I, I, , I, 00:30:58.434 --> 00:30:59.929 because I really don't think it matters. 00:30:59.929 --> 00:31:00.139 Right. 00:31:00.144 --> 00:31:01.329 For me, it's all coms. 00:31:01.536 --> 00:31:03.306 It's like, what did I deliver for you? 00:31:03.456 --> 00:31:04.506 Did it meet the thing? 00:31:04.536 --> 00:31:07.446 Did it enable you to do the thing you were trying to do? 00:31:07.506 --> 00:31:07.896 Right. 00:31:08.256 --> 00:31:12.426 And if it did and it did, it, did it successfully, then we, everyone 00:31:12.431 --> 00:31:14.256 should consider that a win. 00:31:14.556 --> 00:31:16.356 , I mean, way back in the battle days, right. 00:31:16.596 --> 00:31:18.226 Of, of, , accelerators, right? 00:31:18.231 --> 00:31:19.306 That's what this was. 00:31:20.006 --> 00:31:20.081 , right? 00:31:20.081 --> 00:31:20.411 Excel. 00:31:20.441 --> 00:31:22.361 This is the accelerator methodology. 00:31:22.361 --> 00:31:26.321 You go in and you hire, you know, partner A and they come in with their way of doing 00:31:26.321 --> 00:31:29.321 things and they, they kinda, you know, they sung a dance shoe about like why 00:31:29.321 --> 00:31:32.771 they have an accelerator, but honestly they have an accelerator so they can 00:31:32.771 --> 00:31:35.076 write once and, and build many, right? 00:31:35.076 --> 00:31:38.709 It's scale, it's just scaling hours that they invested in it, right? 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:42.939 For me and, and, and abstracting those hours away from their hourly cost. 00:31:43.624 --> 00:31:46.474 That's exactly why you had, well, you had accelerators. 00:31:46.684 --> 00:31:48.034 To me, it's the same thing, right? 00:31:48.034 --> 00:31:53.314 Like, I wanna scale the hours that I put into, um, that I put into the, 00:31:53.344 --> 00:31:57.891 in, into, the, the relationship with my client as well, and that as long 00:31:57.891 --> 00:31:59.061 as that value is there for them. 00:31:59.861 --> 00:32:00.221 Right. 00:32:00.221 --> 00:32:04.524 And, in the startup world, and if you listen to folks who are like, you know, 00:32:04.524 --> 00:32:08.424 selling SaaS services, um, they'll come in with a service and they'll 00:32:08.424 --> 00:32:10.404 sell it to an individual or small team. 00:32:10.674 --> 00:32:13.759 And that service might be $15 a user, per month. 00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:14.089 Right. 00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:15.109 Reasonable. 00:32:15.409 --> 00:32:15.649 Right. 00:32:15.679 --> 00:32:18.469 But then IBM comes in and they wanna buy it, right. 00:32:18.469 --> 00:32:21.469 And they want to be a subscriber and they, they've got a team of 00:32:21.469 --> 00:32:23.659 like, I dunno, 50,000 people, right. 00:32:24.469 --> 00:32:28.912 Is that company charging it ibm, $15 a month, per user? 00:32:29.092 --> 00:32:32.362 Or is that company now charging b m $50 a month per user? 00:32:32.362 --> 00:32:35.542 Because they gotta deal with all the enterprise bullshit, right? 00:32:35.542 --> 00:32:37.522 That comes with b m, right? 00:32:37.522 --> 00:32:41.662 Like you gotta go through like compliant certifications and you 00:32:41.662 --> 00:32:43.852 gotta deal with, you know, ibm. 00:32:43.917 --> 00:32:47.937 Purchasing team and proc processing and blah, blah, blah. 00:32:47.937 --> 00:32:50.247 All the stuff that comes with dealing with big organizations, right? 00:32:50.247 --> 00:32:53.197 Like the, you've gotta build more resilience in your product because 00:32:53.197 --> 00:32:54.787 they can't afford to be down, right? 00:32:54.787 --> 00:32:56.947 Like, there's a lot more that comes into it when you start 00:32:56.947 --> 00:32:58.177 dealing with big organizations. 00:32:58.182 --> 00:33:01.657 And the value that IBM's gonna get outta your product is different than the 00:33:01.657 --> 00:33:05.767 value that small mom and pop business is gonna get outta your product, right? 00:33:05.767 --> 00:33:05.917 And. 00:33:06.602 --> 00:33:09.572 Sell them to sell that to them in two different value, points. 00:33:09.572 --> 00:33:13.412 Now, the question is, is like, is that wrong, right, for acknowledging 00:33:13.622 --> 00:33:16.952 the customer gets more value out of your, um, service than the other one? 00:33:17.432 --> 00:33:20.222 And if so, then should you just sell it always at the 00:33:20.222 --> 00:33:21.472 same, , the same price point? 00:33:22.087 --> 00:33:25.837 And I'll tell you the answer is go to any software, , any SaaS app 00:33:25.837 --> 00:33:29.077 and look for enterprise sales, and you'll, you'll see two words there. 00:33:29.497 --> 00:33:30.637 You know, contact us, 00:33:34.547 --> 00:33:36.697 and, and that's kind of where we are with this, right? 00:33:36.697 --> 00:33:40.627 Like, you know, it's the, it's, it is the, it's the thought behind it that. 00:33:40.984 --> 00:33:44.781 And, and this is aimed at, the consultants who are at this, this 00:33:44.961 --> 00:33:46.461 have, this ability to sell, right? 00:33:46.461 --> 00:33:48.561 And the, and the ability to deliver, right? 00:33:48.561 --> 00:33:51.291 Like, you have to think about the value that you create for client, right? 00:33:51.291 --> 00:33:56.332 And so, don't charge mom and prop pop, rates to, Microsoft, they can afford it, 00:33:58.102 --> 00:34:01.042 , and they're gonna get way more value outta whatever you're gonna deliver for them. 00:34:01.252 --> 00:34:02.872 So that's how I look at it. 00:34:04.327 --> 00:34:07.237 Duke: Yeah, it's, uh, there's definitely a lot of merit in there too. 00:34:07.767 --> 00:34:08.067 , wow. 00:34:08.067 --> 00:34:10.287 We are at 36 minutes of record and I didn't 00:34:12.237 --> 00:34:14.097 CJ: We had nothing to talk about, dude. 00:34:14.442 --> 00:34:14.922 Duke: Nothing. 00:34:15.192 --> 00:34:18.342 We're coming up blanks and we've talked about shoot, iterative 00:34:18.342 --> 00:34:23.802 development, testing, recombination and innovation, attention and context. 00:34:23.802 --> 00:34:27.882 Switching the unicorn project offshoring and internationalizing 00:34:27.882 --> 00:34:29.532 consulting and shoot what? 00:34:29.532 --> 00:34:30.222 Pricing our work. 00:34:30.837 --> 00:34:32.577 CJ: And pri Yeah, and pricing our work. 00:34:32.577 --> 00:34:33.327 Absolutely. 00:34:33.672 --> 00:34:34.332 Duke: There you go folks. 00:34:34.332 --> 00:34:35.892 You got six in one episode. 00:34:38.142 --> 00:34:39.552 tell us we never do anything for you, 00:34:41.097 --> 00:34:43.827 CJ: and, and, and on this one, I would love to hear your feedback folks. 00:34:43.827 --> 00:34:46.397 So if you do have any takeaways on this one, , do leave us a 00:34:46.397 --> 00:34:47.657 comment when we post about it. 00:34:47.822 --> 00:34:48.302 Duke: Yeah, man. 00:34:48.302 --> 00:34:49.142 Argue with us. 00:34:49.142 --> 00:34:50.102 It's gonna be awesome, 00:34:50.627 --> 00:34:51.227 CJ: Yeah, no doubt. 00:34:51.227 --> 00:34:52.127 Love arguments, right? 00:34:52.127 --> 00:34:54.797 Like how else do you know if you're right or wrong, unless people tell you 00:34:54.797 --> 00:34:56.117 that they agree or disagree with you. 00:34:56.462 --> 00:34:57.062 Duke: That's right. 00:34:57.272 --> 00:35:00.012 So thanks everybody for listening, and we will see you on the next one. 00:35:00.214 --> 00:35:00.754 CJ: Bye-bye. 00:35:01.009 --> 00:35:05.269 Duke: CJ and the Duke is hosted by Robert the Duke, Fedor, and Corey CJ Wesley. 00:35:05.329 --> 00:35:09.259 We are both freelance vendor agnostic, ServiceNow experts who can 00:35:09.259 --> 00:35:10.909 help you in three different ways. 00:35:11.179 --> 00:35:14.779 If you want a true consigliere in your corner for your ServiceNow implementation. 00:35:14.989 --> 00:35:19.009 If you want to tell your customer story on CJ and the Duke, or if you want your 00:35:19.009 --> 00:35:22.879 brand in front of the largest independent ServiceNow podcast community, check 00:35:22.879 --> 00:35:24.709 the links below for how to contact us. 00:35:24.799 --> 00:35:26.569 Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.