WEBVTT 00:00:03.180 --> 00:00:05.220 Matt Abrahams: Think about your closest friends. 00:00:05.610 --> 00:00:10.680 Not the virtual online ones, but the people you see in your everyday real life. 00:00:10.920 --> 00:00:11.879 How did you meet? 00:00:12.210 --> 00:00:15.750 I bet at least one or more of your friends you first met through small talk. 00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:18.630 Through small talk, big things happen. 00:00:19.080 --> 00:00:21.860 Yet many of us dread these conversations. 00:00:22.170 --> 00:00:25.120 Today we're going to open up the vault and explore interpersonal 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:29.350 communication and conversations that allow us to connect, learn, and 00:00:29.350 --> 00:00:32.140 grow, with my guest Rachel Greenwald. 00:00:32.590 --> 00:00:37.300 Rachel teaches us valuable, practical skills, like how to focus on being 00:00:37.300 --> 00:00:43.090 interested, not interesting, along with how to exit small talk gracefully. 00:00:43.710 --> 00:00:48.720 I invite you to enjoy this Think Fast Talk Smart Rethinks episode. 00:00:50.370 --> 00:00:53.700 Forming relationships can be very challenging. 00:00:54.090 --> 00:00:58.050 At work, in our personal lives, in our romantic lives. 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:01.605 Today, let's learn some skills to help us. 00:01:02.955 --> 00:01:07.035 I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford 00:01:07.035 --> 00:01:08.565 Graduate School of Business. 00:01:08.955 --> 00:01:13.125 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:01:15.285 --> 00:01:18.675 I am super excited today to speak with Rachel Greenwald. 00:01:19.100 --> 00:01:23.089 Rachel is an executive fellow at Harvard Business School, and interestingly, a 00:01:23.089 --> 00:01:25.669 professional matchmaker and dating coach. 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:29.119 She's an expert on communication and relationship building 00:01:29.119 --> 00:01:31.729 in work, love, and life. 00:01:31.789 --> 00:01:36.440 At Stanford University, she's co-taught a seminar with past guest Tina Seelig at 00:01:36.440 --> 00:01:39.410 the d.school called Designing for Love. 00:01:39.710 --> 00:01:43.850 She also guest lectures with two of our other previous guests, Alison 00:01:43.850 --> 00:01:46.109 Wood Brooks and Naomi Bagdonas. 00:01:46.429 --> 00:01:48.229 Welcome Rachel, thanks for being here. 00:01:48.990 --> 00:01:49.530 Rachel Greenwald: Hi Matt. 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:51.869 I am so excited for our conversation today. 00:01:52.575 --> 00:01:53.595 Matt Abrahams: I am too. 00:01:53.625 --> 00:01:55.275 Let's go ahead and jump right in. 00:01:55.635 --> 00:01:59.475 You help people build relationships in two very different arenas. 00:01:59.535 --> 00:02:02.865 You coach executives in the business world, and you coach 00:02:02.865 --> 00:02:04.785 singles in the dating world. 00:02:05.115 --> 00:02:09.014 What have you learned about one of the most challenging aspects 00:02:09.014 --> 00:02:14.355 of relationship building, small talk, that applies to both worlds? 00:02:14.835 --> 00:02:18.405 And how do you make small talk feel more comfortable when meeting 00:02:18.405 --> 00:02:20.985 someone at work or on a date? 00:02:21.870 --> 00:02:25.170 Rachel Greenwald: One big thing that I've learned about creating successful 00:02:25.170 --> 00:02:32.489 small talk, both at work and on dates, is simply this, don't be a data collector. 00:02:33.119 --> 00:02:37.679 So what I mean by that is like asking where are you from? 00:02:37.679 --> 00:02:38.609 What do you do? 00:02:38.609 --> 00:02:40.560 How many siblings do you have? 00:02:40.920 --> 00:02:45.420 That is all so boring to ask and boring to answer. 00:02:46.109 --> 00:02:49.935 Well, in all my research, I just really discovered again and again that 00:02:50.025 --> 00:02:52.155 boredom is the enemy of small talk. 00:02:52.455 --> 00:02:57.795 So many people default to those predictable data exchange 00:02:57.855 --> 00:03:02.715 topics, so no wonder everybody hates small talk or dreads it. 00:03:02.950 --> 00:03:09.130 So your goal instead should just try to be intriguing so that someone 00:03:09.130 --> 00:03:11.410 wants to lean in and get to know you. 00:03:11.590 --> 00:03:19.060 I always say that in the space between the expected and the unexpected lies intrigue. 00:03:19.720 --> 00:03:24.550 If you wanna be intriguing, you have to ask better questions, and you 00:03:24.550 --> 00:03:28.900 have to give better answers when someone asks you a boring question. 00:03:29.540 --> 00:03:31.430 So I'll try to think of an example here. 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:35.570 Like if you're on a first date and someone asks you a boring data 00:03:35.570 --> 00:03:38.450 collection question, like what do you do? 00:03:38.600 --> 00:03:40.579 Always what everybody asks the first thing. 00:03:41.180 --> 00:03:46.100 So instead of just stating the facts like I'm an engineer, you could turn it 00:03:46.100 --> 00:03:52.550 into an intriguing guessing game that could sound something like, what do I do? 00:03:52.640 --> 00:03:57.350 Well, let me give you two clues and see if you can guess. 00:03:57.815 --> 00:04:03.155 I had to get a master's degree for it, and it usually involves avocados. 00:04:04.204 --> 00:04:07.234 So that's a very unexpected answer, right? 00:04:07.265 --> 00:04:12.005 It's intriguing, and what I like best about it is that it immediately 00:04:12.005 --> 00:04:16.115 signals to the other person this is not going to be your standard, 00:04:16.204 --> 00:04:17.914 boring, small talk exchange. 00:04:18.185 --> 00:04:21.185 It's gonna be much more enjoyable and, and memorable. 00:04:21.245 --> 00:04:23.795 It's just a better conversation for both people. 00:04:24.225 --> 00:04:26.805 Matt Abrahams: I wanna know what kind of engineer uses avocados. 00:04:26.805 --> 00:04:28.155 You've definitely got me intrigued. 00:04:28.335 --> 00:04:34.125 But this notion of engaging and building intrigue applies not 00:04:34.125 --> 00:04:37.035 just in the dating world, but I think in all of our interactions. 00:04:37.035 --> 00:04:41.325 When we talk at work about a project we're on, rather than just giving the facts as 00:04:41.325 --> 00:04:43.125 you suggest, we could make it intriguing. 00:04:43.125 --> 00:04:45.315 We could share the potential value it brings. 00:04:45.315 --> 00:04:47.505 I really, really like that idea. 00:04:47.505 --> 00:04:51.645 And it helps us, as communicators, reframe the whole purpose. 00:04:51.645 --> 00:04:55.605 Because as you said, so many of us dread small talk and if, if it 00:04:55.605 --> 00:04:59.535 becomes an opportunity to engage and intrigue someone that all of a 00:04:59.535 --> 00:05:01.845 sudden makes it much more interesting. 00:05:02.415 --> 00:05:03.495 Rachel Greenwald: Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:03.495 --> 00:05:07.095 Just don't try to collect data about the other person. 00:05:07.185 --> 00:05:13.305 Just try to think that, how would I like to spend these next few minutes myself? 00:05:13.305 --> 00:05:15.405 I'm sure the other person feels the same way. 00:05:15.675 --> 00:05:17.805 Let's try to make this fun and intriguing. 00:05:18.450 --> 00:05:19.380 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:05:19.470 --> 00:05:20.250 Absolutely. 00:05:20.670 --> 00:05:24.750 When it comes to small talk, Rachel, in particular, I find it, and I 00:05:24.750 --> 00:05:30.060 know many people find the initiation of the small talk and how you get 00:05:30.060 --> 00:05:33.570 out of the small talk, how you end it, to be really challenging. 00:05:33.690 --> 00:05:37.920 Can you share ways you coach people to start and end small talk? 00:05:38.650 --> 00:05:39.010 Rachel Greenwald: Sure. 00:05:39.010 --> 00:05:39.760 Absolutely. 00:05:39.760 --> 00:05:43.120 The, the start and the, the ending are the toughest part. 00:05:43.299 --> 00:05:47.260 So if you're someone that struggles with initiating small talk, it's 00:05:47.320 --> 00:05:50.890 probably because you're worried about finding that intriguing question 00:05:50.890 --> 00:05:52.599 like we were just talking about. 00:05:52.989 --> 00:05:58.300 So if that's your obstacle, then I'd say just forget about asking 00:05:58.300 --> 00:06:03.310 a question entirely, take that pressure away, and instead think 00:06:03.310 --> 00:06:06.880 about simply making an observation about something in your environment. 00:06:06.940 --> 00:06:13.000 So an observation is essentially a bid for connection, and it can create 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:18.520 a feeling of instant familiarity, like sort of a conspiratorial 00:06:18.520 --> 00:06:20.830 vibe, just between two people. 00:06:21.220 --> 00:06:22.810 So what's an example? 00:06:22.810 --> 00:06:26.830 Like you could say to someone standing next to you at a networking event, you 00:06:26.830 --> 00:06:31.170 know, hey, that brownie over there on the buffet should have a big sign that 00:06:31.170 --> 00:06:35.730 comes with it that says, this requires seventy-five minutes on the Peloton. 00:06:35.880 --> 00:06:39.000 You know something, just any observation. 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:43.200 It doesn't have to be funny, but just something about your mutual environment 00:06:43.695 --> 00:06:47.955 can create a space where the two of you can smile about something right in 00:06:47.955 --> 00:06:52.455 front of you before launching into the business of getting to know each other. 00:06:52.724 --> 00:06:55.724 So that's the beginning of the small talk exchange that I 00:06:55.724 --> 00:06:58.155 would suggest to make it easier. 00:06:58.784 --> 00:07:01.365 And that ending is super important also. 00:07:02.205 --> 00:07:08.805 I use actually in, in coaching both my daters and my executives at work, I use 00:07:08.805 --> 00:07:10.934 this technique that I call the white flag. 00:07:11.684 --> 00:07:15.645 And the white flag is something that people who know, race car 00:07:15.645 --> 00:07:18.104 driving will probably recognize. 00:07:18.585 --> 00:07:25.909 The white flag in a race car situation is where somebody stands at the finish 00:07:25.909 --> 00:07:30.020 line as the cars are going around and around, and the person with a white 00:07:30.020 --> 00:07:35.479 flag, right before the last lap of the race, will throw down the white flag. 00:07:35.570 --> 00:07:39.140 And that says the race is almost over, but there's one more lap. 00:07:39.440 --> 00:07:44.925 So, for example, like if you're at a function, a party, whatever, you could 00:07:44.925 --> 00:07:48.915 say to somebody towards the end as you're trying to wrap up your conversation, you 00:07:48.915 --> 00:07:54.075 could say, before I go get a drink, I have one last question because it was so 00:07:54.075 --> 00:07:56.445 great hearing about your trip to Alaska. 00:07:56.955 --> 00:08:00.645 I wonder if you have a favorite hike to recommend in Anchorage, just 00:08:00.645 --> 00:08:02.055 in case I get out there one day. 00:08:02.175 --> 00:08:06.975 So then you listen to what they recommend, their favorite hike, and then as 00:08:06.975 --> 00:08:11.025 you're walking away, you say something like, I really enjoyed talking to you, 00:08:11.115 --> 00:08:13.755 and by the way, I love your shoes. 00:08:14.265 --> 00:08:18.045 So this is something that's important to remember. 00:08:18.195 --> 00:08:25.275 That ending small talk is something in social psychology that is called the 00:08:25.275 --> 00:08:31.275 recency effect, where people will rate and experience more positively if the 00:08:31.275 --> 00:08:33.795 last part of the experience is pleasant. 00:08:34.365 --> 00:08:38.745 So ending your conversation with this tactic, like I have one last 00:08:38.745 --> 00:08:43.630 question and then giving a compliment, a sincere compliment of course, as 00:08:43.630 --> 00:08:46.810 you're walking away, it just makes someone feel like you were genuinely 00:08:46.989 --> 00:08:50.920 listening to them, and oh, by the way, you admired something about them. 00:08:51.489 --> 00:08:53.709 Matt Abrahams: When you first said white flag, I thought you meant 00:08:53.709 --> 00:08:55.510 surrendering, like I'm giving up. 00:08:55.510 --> 00:08:59.439 But, but I, I do know auto racing and I do know the white flag analogy. 00:08:59.709 --> 00:09:01.510 I really like that idea. 00:09:01.660 --> 00:09:05.795 I, I can totally see how I could use that in conversation to 00:09:05.795 --> 00:09:07.295 say, I need to go over there. 00:09:07.295 --> 00:09:10.955 I need to go do this, but before I do, I'd like to learn one more thing. 00:09:10.955 --> 00:09:15.335 I think that's a wonderful technique, and really reminding everybody of the 00:09:15.335 --> 00:09:19.895 recency effect that is how we feel at the end of an interaction really matters. 00:09:20.195 --> 00:09:24.305 So doing something at the end that's positive, I think is great, rather than 00:09:24.425 --> 00:09:27.795 that awkwardness that many of us feel where we just say I need something more 00:09:27.795 --> 00:09:29.685 to drink and step away from the person. 00:09:29.895 --> 00:09:34.725 I really appreciate that advice and I have an upcoming social event for work and 00:09:34.725 --> 00:09:36.465 I'm gonna use that technique right away. 00:09:36.825 --> 00:09:40.575 In terms of starting, I like that idea of finding some kind of 00:09:40.575 --> 00:09:42.555 common ground or common connection. 00:09:42.555 --> 00:09:47.415 I can imagine at a work function, talking about a keynote speaker or, or 00:09:47.415 --> 00:09:51.855 a certain goal that was just discussed as a way of getting people to initiate 00:09:51.880 --> 00:09:57.310 that conversation and together be working towards getting the conversation moving. 00:09:57.310 --> 00:09:58.990 So very, very helpful. 00:09:58.990 --> 00:10:02.980 I took copious notes on what you just said and, and hope to put them into 00:10:02.980 --> 00:10:04.960 practice in the very near future. 00:10:05.594 --> 00:10:09.495 I know you and I talked about this once when we first met each other, Rachel, when 00:10:09.495 --> 00:10:15.104 I was in grad school, I published research on flirtation and relationship initiation. 00:10:15.464 --> 00:10:18.765 This is a topic that really fascinated me then and still fascinates me 00:10:18.765 --> 00:10:22.635 now, and it was also really helpful because I met my wife while I was 00:10:22.635 --> 00:10:24.735 studying flirtation in grad school. 00:10:24.915 --> 00:10:30.285 Now, as a matchmaker, you help many people initiate and start relationships. 00:10:30.735 --> 00:10:34.935 What advice do you give daters about effective communication? 00:10:35.380 --> 00:10:39.160 And is there different advice you give people who are seeking romantic 00:10:39.160 --> 00:10:43.600 partners versus those who are looking for platonic and professional relationships? 00:10:44.079 --> 00:10:47.020 Rachel Greenwald: Matt, it is exactly the same advice in 00:10:47.050 --> 00:10:48.910 romantic or professional context. 00:10:48.910 --> 00:10:54.699 It's not different at all, and the advice is simply to focus on how you 00:10:54.699 --> 00:10:59.400 make someone feel more than you focus on the words that you're saying. 00:10:59.729 --> 00:11:03.810 So that's reminiscent of that Maya Angelou quote where everyone knows this 00:11:03.810 --> 00:11:07.619 quote, I'm sure, but people will forget what you said, forget what you did, but 00:11:07.680 --> 00:11:09.750 never forget how you made them feel. 00:11:10.319 --> 00:11:15.660 So instead of, for example, trying to impress someone with your own stories 00:11:15.660 --> 00:11:20.459 or your credentials, you wanna lean into their stories, their credentials, 00:11:20.520 --> 00:11:25.770 and make them feel smart or feel funny, or even just feel accepted 00:11:25.770 --> 00:11:29.699 instead of judged, which is how most people walk around feeling every 00:11:29.699 --> 00:11:31.230 day, is that everyone's judging them. 00:11:31.230 --> 00:11:36.030 So you could have comments like somebody tells you something and say 00:11:36.030 --> 00:11:39.150 something, I don't know, like, wow, I never would've thought of doing that. 00:11:39.150 --> 00:11:40.620 How'd you come up with that idea? 00:11:41.160 --> 00:11:43.949 So comments have to be genuine though, like that's really important. 00:11:44.010 --> 00:11:46.140 You can't fake interest in someone. 00:11:46.140 --> 00:11:48.270 People can smell a fake, a mile away. 00:11:48.859 --> 00:11:55.130 So try to have in your head this mantra that in every gathering, every person 00:11:55.130 --> 00:12:01.880 in this room has something to teach me, and then your interest and leaning into 00:12:01.880 --> 00:12:04.310 their stories will feel more genuine. 00:12:04.880 --> 00:12:09.135 You mentioned the word flirtation in your question and whether you use the 00:12:09.135 --> 00:12:13.185 word flirtation in a dating context or whether you label it something different 00:12:13.215 --> 00:12:17.625 in a work context like relationship initiation, it's basically the same thing. 00:12:17.925 --> 00:12:21.645 You're demonstrating that you're interested in someone and that you 00:12:21.645 --> 00:12:26.055 like them, and it's the universal truth that most people will 00:12:26.055 --> 00:12:28.590 like you if you like them first. 00:12:29.325 --> 00:12:31.965 Matt Abrahams: I really like that advice, and as I was listening to 00:12:31.965 --> 00:12:36.795 you, I was reminded of my, my late mother-in-law was an expert at small 00:12:36.795 --> 00:12:38.445 talk and getting to know people. 00:12:38.745 --> 00:12:43.485 When she would come to visit, she would have to fly and the first half hour 00:12:43.485 --> 00:12:46.575 of our conversations when she would arrive would be about all the new 00:12:46.575 --> 00:12:48.915 friends she made on the flight over. 00:12:48.915 --> 00:12:52.305 And she had used, what I heard, one of the techniques you were 00:12:52.305 --> 00:12:54.705 talking about was genuine curiosity. 00:12:54.705 --> 00:12:58.725 She was very interested in people and really liked getting to know 00:12:58.725 --> 00:13:00.255 people, and you could feel that. 00:13:00.525 --> 00:13:07.185 And her superpower was being able to ask the question, tell me more. 00:13:07.605 --> 00:13:08.455 I'd like to learn more. 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:10.040 What more can you tell me about that? 00:13:10.040 --> 00:13:14.060 And she would use that all the time to really get conversations going and to 00:13:14.060 --> 00:13:15.680 signal that she was really interested. 00:13:15.680 --> 00:13:19.730 So I really appreciate what you said and, and I wish we would've 00:13:19.730 --> 00:13:22.100 known each other back when I was in grad school studying this. 00:13:22.100 --> 00:13:26.000 You would've helped me really hone in on the things I was interested in studying. 00:13:26.540 --> 00:13:30.380 You work closely at times with some of our most popular previous guests, 00:13:30.439 --> 00:13:32.680 Alison Wood Brooks, and Naomi Bagdonas. 00:13:33.050 --> 00:13:38.050 My interviews with them looked into humor and I'm curious to get your take 00:13:38.110 --> 00:13:43.150 on using humor in conversations, in our personal lives and our professional lives. 00:13:43.575 --> 00:13:46.245 Rachel Greenwald: To me, the word humor is always stressful, and 00:13:46.245 --> 00:13:49.575 I think it is to a lot of people too, because it feels daunting. 00:13:49.575 --> 00:13:51.645 Like there's this pressure to be funny. 00:13:52.095 --> 00:13:56.085 So I, and, and I don't think of myself as a funny person, so I 00:13:56.175 --> 00:14:01.455 try to rephrase that word humor and I coach people on specifically 00:14:01.695 --> 00:14:04.515 using light banter in conversation. 00:14:04.545 --> 00:14:09.070 Which to me, it just sounds much easier, less pressure felt, and 00:14:09.070 --> 00:14:11.980 it really accomplishes the same goal, which is to lighten the mood. 00:14:12.820 --> 00:14:16.930 So for example, we talked earlier about finding observations in your 00:14:16.930 --> 00:14:23.410 environment that are unexpected or playful, and I think that's a great 00:14:23.560 --> 00:14:25.930 starting point for light banter. 00:14:25.990 --> 00:14:30.265 Observations, it could be something like standing in a crowded room and 00:14:30.265 --> 00:14:34.045 you turn to the person next to you and you say something like, I'm, I'm 00:14:34.045 --> 00:14:35.694 loving that woman's sweater over there. 00:14:35.694 --> 00:14:38.354 It's so Madonna circa 1985. 00:14:38.714 --> 00:14:41.064 Or just something, it doesn't have to be funny. 00:14:41.064 --> 00:14:43.615 It's just sort of a light comment. 00:14:44.425 --> 00:14:48.385 But as you bring up humor, I also wanna caution people that there's a dark 00:14:48.385 --> 00:14:50.665 side to using humor in conversations. 00:14:50.665 --> 00:14:54.475 Most people don't think about humor in any negative way, but it really 00:14:54.505 --> 00:14:56.725 can be if it's used incorrectly. 00:14:57.235 --> 00:15:02.635 So I conducted a ten year dating research project where I compiled a list 00:15:02.695 --> 00:15:06.055 of thirteen bad conversation habits. 00:15:06.595 --> 00:15:11.125 And one of the bad habits I found I called the comedian. 00:15:11.485 --> 00:15:14.425 And the comedian is someone in conversation who gets a lot of 00:15:14.425 --> 00:15:17.815 laughs 'cause they have jokes or they are self-deprecating. 00:15:18.415 --> 00:15:24.660 And at first that's fun, but soon your conversation partner might crave a deeper 00:15:24.660 --> 00:15:26.970 connection than just all the laughs. 00:15:27.030 --> 00:15:31.020 And someone who's the comedian can use their humor like a shield, 00:15:31.530 --> 00:15:35.280 and your conversation partner can't penetrate that shield, which 00:15:35.280 --> 00:15:36.840 will feel frustrating to them. 00:15:37.260 --> 00:15:41.640 You sort of feel like as the conversation partner, you're an audience kept 00:15:41.640 --> 00:15:43.470 to a distance from the performer. 00:15:44.160 --> 00:15:49.220 And the comedian always reminds me of crashing after a sugar high 00:15:49.250 --> 00:15:50.570 if you eat too much chocolate. 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:55.410 You might just suddenly afterwards feel tired or unsatisfied. 00:15:56.010 --> 00:16:01.635 And so you have to remember that the goal of communication is to create connection 00:16:01.635 --> 00:16:03.225 and make a favorable impression. 00:16:03.555 --> 00:16:06.765 So obviously you don't want someone to feel like talking to you is 00:16:06.765 --> 00:16:12.405 exhausting because you're using humor too much in your communication style. 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:17.070 Matt Abrahams: I find the first point you made to be really true. 00:16:17.280 --> 00:16:21.660 When we try to be funny, it just invokes so much stress. 00:16:21.990 --> 00:16:25.500 So I like your reframing of, hey, this is just light banter, 00:16:25.500 --> 00:16:27.150 and that takes pressure off. 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.420 And by taking pressure off, I think it frees us up to actually 00:16:30.420 --> 00:16:33.175 be funnier and more connecting. 00:16:33.834 --> 00:16:38.964 I am really curious to know, you said you found thirteen bad conversation habits. 00:16:39.204 --> 00:16:43.015 Can you just share with us two or three more beyond the comedian? 00:16:43.435 --> 00:16:44.425 Rachel Greenwald: Yeah, absolutely. 00:16:44.425 --> 00:16:49.285 One of the most common bad habits people have was something I called the mirror, 00:16:49.885 --> 00:16:54.474 and the mirror is the dynamic where whatever you say, the other person has 00:16:54.474 --> 00:16:57.265 a similar story to mirror back to you. 00:16:57.265 --> 00:16:59.755 Like, oh wow, same thing happened to me. 00:16:59.939 --> 00:17:04.200 Just waiting their turn politely until you stop speaking so they can reflect 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:06.839 on their own relatable experience. 00:17:07.409 --> 00:17:11.970 And that's understandable 'cause, I think, we're taught when you're younger or 00:17:11.970 --> 00:17:16.710 maybe even in some kind of sales training programs, they teach you that you're 00:17:16.710 --> 00:17:20.220 supposed to find a point of connection where you can relate to somebody. 00:17:20.579 --> 00:17:22.920 But actually I find it to be the opposite. 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:28.100 I find that the mirror habit can deflate conversational energy or make 00:17:28.100 --> 00:17:33.650 it feel choppy so the exchange can feel superficial and you don't feel heard. 00:17:34.130 --> 00:17:38.570 There's all sorts of other ones like the interrupter, somebody who's 00:17:38.660 --> 00:17:42.320 just interrupting you before you can finish your sentence and they 00:17:42.500 --> 00:17:44.720 try to finish your sentence for you. 00:17:45.050 --> 00:17:47.900 They're sure they already know what they're gonna say, so they 00:17:47.900 --> 00:17:51.740 have that dirty four letter word dynamic going on, the KNOW. 00:17:52.650 --> 00:17:54.780 And the other person just feels annoyed. 00:17:54.780 --> 00:17:55.800 They don't feel heard. 00:17:56.190 --> 00:18:01.260 So all these conversation bad habits are really about the feeling you 00:18:01.260 --> 00:18:03.750 create in your conversation partner. 00:18:04.110 --> 00:18:08.550 So whether you're trying to be the one upper or you're the humble bragger, 00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:15.930 or any of these thirteen types that I found, you are doing yourself a 00:18:15.930 --> 00:18:21.150 disservice because you're almost trying to impress the other person. 00:18:21.150 --> 00:18:25.590 Like I can understand why they're behaving the way they are, but the 00:18:25.590 --> 00:18:30.180 end result is that your conversation partner doesn't feel good talking to you. 00:18:30.780 --> 00:18:32.310 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for sharing those. 00:18:32.310 --> 00:18:36.600 And as you were going through each of those bad communication behaviors, 00:18:36.990 --> 00:18:41.910 I saw in my mind's eye people who do those skills and how they make me feel. 00:18:42.270 --> 00:18:46.110 And the, the meta message of what I heard you share, Rachel, is that we 00:18:46.110 --> 00:18:50.010 constantly have to be thinking about how we're making our conversation 00:18:50.010 --> 00:18:54.550 partners, our coworkers, the people we're interested in dating, feel. 00:18:54.840 --> 00:18:59.409 And not so much focus on our particular goal in that moment, which is to share 00:18:59.409 --> 00:19:03.879 my story as soon as you share yours, and that is a wonderful reminder of 00:19:03.879 --> 00:19:05.979 what makes for effective communication. 00:19:05.979 --> 00:19:09.520 Be focused on the needs of the person you're talking to. 00:19:10.050 --> 00:19:14.429 Before we end, I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask everyone. 00:19:14.429 --> 00:19:15.389 Are you up for that, Rachel? 00:19:15.750 --> 00:19:16.500 Rachel Greenwald: Yeah, I'd love it. 00:19:16.919 --> 00:19:17.340 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:19:17.340 --> 00:19:18.750 I'm excited to hear your answers. 00:19:19.110 --> 00:19:23.669 If you were to capture the best communication advice you've ever received 00:19:23.669 --> 00:19:29.010 as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be? 00:19:29.820 --> 00:19:34.900 Rachel Greenwald: I would call this slide title, everyone knows it but you. 00:19:36.330 --> 00:19:41.610 What I mean by that is that you have a communication blind spot, 00:19:41.909 --> 00:19:43.200 but you don't know what it is. 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:44.850 Everyone else knows and you don't. 00:19:45.360 --> 00:19:49.350 So maybe you even have more than one blind spot, but people are terrible 00:19:49.350 --> 00:19:51.930 judges of their own communication skills. 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:54.899 They either overestimate or underestimate them. 00:19:55.105 --> 00:19:59.550 They have no idea how someone feels when talking to you. 00:19:59.980 --> 00:20:04.545 So you're the last to know unless you ask for feedback. 00:20:04.965 --> 00:20:09.764 So this advice is all about trying to get feedback, and it's true in dating 00:20:09.764 --> 00:20:11.504 and friendship and business, anything. 00:20:12.345 --> 00:20:14.205 Matt Abrahams: I didn't know where you were gonna take your slide 00:20:14.205 --> 00:20:18.254 title, but I love the point that we have to seek out feedback. 00:20:18.525 --> 00:20:21.675 We are not the best observers of our own communication. 00:20:22.035 --> 00:20:27.045 So for question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:20:27.570 --> 00:20:32.070 Rachel Greenwald: For that question, I am going to pick someone kind of out 00:20:32.070 --> 00:20:39.929 of the standard communication arena and point to someone named Priya Parker, who 00:20:39.959 --> 00:20:41.699 some of you may know, others may not. 00:20:41.699 --> 00:20:46.495 She's the author of a book that is one of my all time favorites 00:20:46.495 --> 00:20:48.325 called The Art of Gathering. 00:20:48.955 --> 00:20:52.405 And her work focuses on reimagining how we spend our time 00:20:52.405 --> 00:20:53.834 together to create more meaning. 00:20:53.965 --> 00:20:57.895 So she's not specifically in the field of communication, but she talks 00:20:57.895 --> 00:21:02.725 a lot about setting the tone for a gathering before it even begins. 00:21:03.355 --> 00:21:08.385 And this is a point on the continuum of communication that I think 00:21:08.795 --> 00:21:10.065 doesn't get enough attention. 00:21:10.080 --> 00:21:14.640 And I call that point the pre-communicating point, which is 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:18.570 the idea that communication actually begins in subtle ways, even before 00:21:18.570 --> 00:21:20.160 you're in the same space with someone. 00:21:20.610 --> 00:21:24.000 And space could be in person, or like you mentioned earlier, it 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.400 could be a digital space like Zoom. 00:21:27.105 --> 00:21:28.725 And even email or text. 00:21:28.725 --> 00:21:32.865 So space is broadly defined, but Priya Parker advocates that 00:21:32.865 --> 00:21:35.565 it's important to set the tone before you interact with someone. 00:21:35.565 --> 00:21:41.835 So is your upcoming conversation or your meeting going to be fun, or do you want 00:21:41.835 --> 00:21:45.795 it to be serious, or is the emphasis on being productive, whatever it is. 00:21:46.485 --> 00:21:49.485 So if you think about all the communication that happens before a 00:21:49.485 --> 00:21:54.195 business meeting, like calendar invites, or even the first few minutes in a 00:21:54.195 --> 00:21:57.975 Zoom window as people are logging on before the meeting begins, what if 00:21:57.975 --> 00:22:02.264 you created a clever title for the calendar invite, or what if you played 00:22:02.264 --> 00:22:06.074 a theme song on Zoom for the first sixty seconds that reflects whatever 00:22:06.074 --> 00:22:08.564 your intended mood is for this meeting. 00:22:08.865 --> 00:22:12.314 I really like her because I think in the big picture, you can have 00:22:12.314 --> 00:22:16.034 the best communication skills on the planet, but if people aren't primed 00:22:16.034 --> 00:22:20.745 to come in being receptive to you, it's just really a missed opportunity. 00:22:21.149 --> 00:22:22.980 Matt Abrahams: I really like Priya's work. 00:22:23.010 --> 00:22:26.490 I've read the book, I've heard her speak, and this notion of 00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:30.060 setting the table, if you will, priming people is really important. 00:22:30.060 --> 00:22:34.200 We had a wonderful discussion with Robert Cialdini about what he calls 00:22:34.250 --> 00:22:40.485 pre-suasion, how you actually get people in the right space for you then to make 00:22:40.485 --> 00:22:42.375 the influence requests that you have. 00:22:42.555 --> 00:22:46.995 We don't spend enough time thinking about the context for the communication 00:22:46.995 --> 00:22:49.995 that we're about to have and highlighting Priya Parker's work 00:22:50.025 --> 00:22:51.885 reminds us that we need to do that. 00:22:52.290 --> 00:22:55.530 Rachel Greenwald: We are going back to social psychology again, and if 00:22:55.530 --> 00:22:57.180 you think about the primacy effect. 00:22:57.750 --> 00:23:01.680 So the primacy effect is that people remember the first piece of information 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:06.150 they encounter, and that is better than information presented later on. 00:23:06.150 --> 00:23:10.860 So pre-communication is difficult to master, but Priya Parker knows 00:23:10.860 --> 00:23:15.300 how to set up future conversations for success by communicating in 00:23:15.300 --> 00:23:17.040 advance what she hopes to accomplish. 00:23:17.370 --> 00:23:18.210 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:23:18.659 --> 00:23:22.470 Question number three, what are the first three ingredients that go into 00:23:22.470 --> 00:23:25.050 a successful communication recipe? 00:23:25.409 --> 00:23:26.970 Rachel Greenwald: Ooh, I love that question. 00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:30.600 The first thing that comes to mind is the expression I'm 00:23:30.600 --> 00:23:32.220 gonna steal from real estate. 00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:36.450 So in real estate, you probably know the advice for buying a valuable property 00:23:36.450 --> 00:23:38.070 is location, location, location. 00:23:38.610 --> 00:23:43.600 So I am gonna say the same as, it's similar in communication, 00:23:43.620 --> 00:23:45.419 which is listen, listen, listen. 00:23:45.840 --> 00:23:49.560 That is so important that it bears repeating three times. 00:23:49.949 --> 00:23:53.909 So people, whether it's business or dating, they put so much emphasis 00:23:53.909 --> 00:23:55.800 and communication on what to say. 00:23:56.159 --> 00:24:00.179 But really successful communication is about active listening. 00:24:00.629 --> 00:24:04.649 And I use the word active intentionally 'cause I don't mean just listening, 00:24:04.649 --> 00:24:08.459 like stop talking or be quiet or let the other person speak. 00:24:08.459 --> 00:24:15.054 But actively listening, means things like, don't plan your next response. 00:24:15.054 --> 00:24:18.594 Don't be listening to what somebody's saying and secretly thinking about 00:24:18.594 --> 00:24:19.945 what, how you're gonna respond. 00:24:20.605 --> 00:24:24.745 And active listening means ask follow up questions instead of 00:24:24.745 --> 00:24:26.574 shifting the topic back to yourself. 00:24:27.235 --> 00:24:32.985 And probably most of all, active listening is about encouraging someone to elaborate. 00:24:33.465 --> 00:24:36.465 Matt Abrahams: Love those ingredients. 00:24:36.765 --> 00:24:41.715 You know, Rachel, I really thank you for taking time to be with us and give 00:24:41.715 --> 00:24:48.855 us very specific advice on how we can connect better with coworkers, potential 00:24:48.855 --> 00:24:51.465 romantic partners, and platonic friends. 00:24:51.615 --> 00:24:53.055 I appreciate your time. 00:24:53.145 --> 00:24:54.315 I appreciate your input. 00:24:54.405 --> 00:24:55.005 Thank you. 00:24:55.335 --> 00:24:56.385 Rachel Greenwald: Oh, you're so welcome. 00:24:58.330 --> 00:25:00.490 Matt Abrahams: Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think 00:25:00.490 --> 00:25:04.949 Fast Talk Smart, the podcast This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, 00:25:05.340 --> 00:25:08.129 Ryan Campos, and me Matt Abraham's. 00:25:08.580 --> 00:25:11.310 Our music was provided by Floyd Wonder. 00:25:11.760 --> 00:25:15.510 For more information and episodes, find us on YouTube or 00:25:15.510 --> 00:25:17.580 wherever you get your podcasts. 00:25:17.879 --> 00:25:22.290 Thank you, and please make sure to subscribe and follow us on LinkedIn.