Matt Abrahams: Think about your closest friends.
Not the virtual online ones, but the people you see in your everyday real life.
How did you meet?
I bet at least one or more of your friends you first met through small talk.
Through small talk, big things happen.
Yet many of us dread these conversations.
Today we're going to open up the vault and explore interpersonal
communication and conversations that allow us to connect, learn, and
grow, with my guest Rachel Greenwald.
Rachel teaches us valuable, practical skills, like how to focus on being
interested, not interesting, along with how to exit small talk gracefully.
I invite you to enjoy this Think Fast Talk Smart Rethinks episode.
Forming relationships can be very challenging.
At work, in our personal lives, in our romantic lives.
Today, let's learn some skills to help us.
I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford
Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
I am super excited today to speak with Rachel Greenwald.
Rachel is an executive fellow at Harvard Business School, and interestingly, a
professional matchmaker and dating coach.
She's an expert on communication and relationship building
in work, love, and life.
At Stanford University, she's co-taught a seminar with past guest Tina Seelig at
the d.school called Designing for Love.
She also guest lectures with two of our other previous guests, Alison
Wood Brooks and Naomi Bagdonas.
Welcome Rachel, thanks for being here.
Rachel Greenwald: Hi Matt.
I am so excited for our conversation today.
Matt Abrahams: I am too.
Let's go ahead and jump right in.
You help people build relationships in two very different arenas.
You coach executives in the business world, and you coach
singles in the dating world.
What have you learned about one of the most challenging aspects
of relationship building, small talk, that applies to both worlds?
And how do you make small talk feel more comfortable when meeting
someone at work or on a date?
Rachel Greenwald: One big thing that I've learned about creating successful
small talk, both at work and on dates, is simply this, don't be a data collector.
So what I mean by that is like asking where are you from?
What do you do?
How many siblings do you have?
That is all so boring to ask and boring to answer.
Well, in all my research, I just really discovered again and again that
boredom is the enemy of small talk.
So many people default to those predictable data exchange
topics, so no wonder everybody hates small talk or dreads it.
So your goal instead should just try to be intriguing so that someone
wants to lean in and get to know you.
I always say that in the space between the expected and the unexpected lies intrigue.
If you wanna be intriguing, you have to ask better questions, and you
have to give better answers when someone asks you a boring question.
So I'll try to think of an example here.
Like if you're on a first date and someone asks you a boring data
collection question, like what do you do?
Always what everybody asks the first thing.
So instead of just stating the facts like I'm an engineer, you could turn it
into an intriguing guessing game that could sound something like, what do I do?
Well, let me give you two clues and see if you can guess.
I had to get a master's degree for it, and it usually involves avocados.
So that's a very unexpected answer, right?
It's intriguing, and what I like best about it is that it immediately
signals to the other person this is not going to be your standard,
boring, small talk exchange.
It's gonna be much more enjoyable and, and memorable.
It's just a better conversation for both people.
Matt Abrahams: I wanna know what kind of engineer uses avocados.
You've definitely got me intrigued.
But this notion of engaging and building intrigue applies not
just in the dating world, but I think in all of our interactions.
When we talk at work about a project we're on, rather than just giving the facts as
you suggest, we could make it intriguing.
We could share the potential value it brings.
I really, really like that idea.
And it helps us, as communicators, reframe the whole purpose.
Because as you said, so many of us dread small talk and if, if it
becomes an opportunity to engage and intrigue someone that all of a
sudden makes it much more interesting.
Rachel Greenwald: Yeah, absolutely.
Just don't try to collect data about the other person.
Just try to think that, how would I like to spend these next few minutes myself?
I'm sure the other person feels the same way.
Let's try to make this fun and intriguing.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
When it comes to small talk, Rachel, in particular, I find it, and I
know many people find the initiation of the small talk and how you get
out of the small talk, how you end it, to be really challenging.
Can you share ways you coach people to start and end small talk?
Rachel Greenwald: Sure.
Absolutely.
The, the start and the, the ending are the toughest part.
So if you're someone that struggles with initiating small talk, it's
probably because you're worried about finding that intriguing question
like we were just talking about.
So if that's your obstacle, then I'd say just forget about asking
a question entirely, take that pressure away, and instead think
about simply making an observation about something in your environment.
So an observation is essentially a bid for connection, and it can create
a feeling of instant familiarity, like sort of a conspiratorial
vibe, just between two people.
So what's an example?
Like you could say to someone standing next to you at a networking event, you
know, hey, that brownie over there on the buffet should have a big sign that
comes with it that says, this requires seventy-five minutes on the Peloton.
You know something, just any observation.
It doesn't have to be funny, but just something about your mutual environment
can create a space where the two of you can smile about something right in
front of you before launching into the business of getting to know each other.
So that's the beginning of the small talk exchange that I
would suggest to make it easier.
And that ending is super important also.
I use actually in, in coaching both my daters and my executives at work, I use
this technique that I call the white flag.
And the white flag is something that people who know, race car
driving will probably recognize.
The white flag in a race car situation is where somebody stands at the finish
line as the cars are going around and around, and the person with a white
flag, right before the last lap of the race, will throw down the white flag.
And that says the race is almost over, but there's one more lap.
So, for example, like if you're at a function, a party, whatever, you could
say to somebody towards the end as you're trying to wrap up your conversation, you
could say, before I go get a drink, I have one last question because it was so
great hearing about your trip to Alaska.
I wonder if you have a favorite hike to recommend in Anchorage, just
in case I get out there one day.
So then you listen to what they recommend, their favorite hike, and then as
you're walking away, you say something like, I really enjoyed talking to you,
and by the way, I love your shoes.
So this is something that's important to remember.
That ending small talk is something in social psychology that is called the
recency effect, where people will rate and experience more positively if the
last part of the experience is pleasant.
So ending your conversation with this tactic, like I have one last
question and then giving a compliment, a sincere compliment of course, as
you're walking away, it just makes someone feel like you were genuinely
listening to them, and oh, by the way, you admired something about them.
Matt Abrahams: When you first said white flag, I thought you meant
surrendering, like I'm giving up.
But, but I, I do know auto racing and I do know the white flag analogy.
I really like that idea.
I, I can totally see how I could use that in conversation to
say, I need to go over there.
I need to go do this, but before I do, I'd like to learn one more thing.
I think that's a wonderful technique, and really reminding everybody of the
recency effect that is how we feel at the end of an interaction really matters.
So doing something at the end that's positive, I think is great, rather than
that awkwardness that many of us feel where we just say I need something more
to drink and step away from the person.
I really appreciate that advice and I have an upcoming social event for work and
I'm gonna use that technique right away.
In terms of starting, I like that idea of finding some kind of
common ground or common connection.
I can imagine at a work function, talking about a keynote speaker or, or
a certain goal that was just discussed as a way of getting people to initiate
that conversation and together be working towards getting the conversation moving.
So very, very helpful.
I took copious notes on what you just said and, and hope to put them into
practice in the very near future.
I know you and I talked about this once when we first met each other, Rachel, when
I was in grad school, I published research on flirtation and relationship initiation.
This is a topic that really fascinated me then and still fascinates me
now, and it was also really helpful because I met my wife while I was
studying flirtation in grad school.
Now, as a matchmaker, you help many people initiate and start relationships.
What advice do you give daters about effective communication?
And is there different advice you give people who are seeking romantic
partners versus those who are looking for platonic and professional relationships?
Rachel Greenwald: Matt, it is exactly the same advice in
romantic or professional context.
It's not different at all, and the advice is simply to focus on how you
make someone feel more than you focus on the words that you're saying.
So that's reminiscent of that Maya Angelou quote where everyone knows this
quote, I'm sure, but people will forget what you said, forget what you did, but
never forget how you made them feel.
So instead of, for example, trying to impress someone with your own stories
or your credentials, you wanna lean into their stories, their credentials,
and make them feel smart or feel funny, or even just feel accepted
instead of judged, which is how most people walk around feeling every
day, is that everyone's judging them.
So you could have comments like somebody tells you something and say
something, I don't know, like, wow, I never would've thought of doing that.
How'd you come up with that idea?
So comments have to be genuine though, like that's really important.
You can't fake interest in someone.
People can smell a fake, a mile away.
So try to have in your head this mantra that in every gathering, every person
in this room has something to teach me, and then your interest and leaning into
their stories will feel more genuine.
You mentioned the word flirtation in your question and whether you use the
word flirtation in a dating context or whether you label it something different
in a work context like relationship initiation, it's basically the same thing.
You're demonstrating that you're interested in someone and that you
like them, and it's the universal truth that most people will
like you if you like them first.
Matt Abrahams: I really like that advice, and as I was listening to
you, I was reminded of my, my late mother-in-law was an expert at small
talk and getting to know people.
When she would come to visit, she would have to fly and the first half hour
of our conversations when she would arrive would be about all the new
friends she made on the flight over.
And she had used, what I heard, one of the techniques you were
talking about was genuine curiosity.
She was very interested in people and really liked getting to know
people, and you could feel that.
And her superpower was being able to ask the question, tell me more.
I'd like to learn more.
What more can you tell me about that?
And she would use that all the time to really get conversations going and to
signal that she was really interested.
So I really appreciate what you said and, and I wish we would've
known each other back when I was in grad school studying this.
You would've helped me really hone in on the things I was interested in studying.
You work closely at times with some of our most popular previous guests,
Alison Wood Brooks, and Naomi Bagdonas.
My interviews with them looked into humor and I'm curious to get your take
on using humor in conversations, in our personal lives and our professional lives.
Rachel Greenwald: To me, the word humor is always stressful, and
I think it is to a lot of people too, because it feels daunting.
Like there's this pressure to be funny.
So I, and, and I don't think of myself as a funny person, so I
try to rephrase that word humor and I coach people on specifically
using light banter in conversation.
Which to me, it just sounds much easier, less pressure felt, and
it really accomplishes the same goal, which is to lighten the mood.
So for example, we talked earlier about finding observations in your
environment that are unexpected or playful, and I think that's a great
starting point for light banter.
Observations, it could be something like standing in a crowded room and
you turn to the person next to you and you say something like, I'm, I'm
loving that woman's sweater over there.
It's so Madonna circa 1985.
Or just something, it doesn't have to be funny.
It's just sort of a light comment.
But as you bring up humor, I also wanna caution people that there's a dark
side to using humor in conversations.
Most people don't think about humor in any negative way, but it really
can be if it's used incorrectly.
So I conducted a ten year dating research project where I compiled a list
of thirteen bad conversation habits.
And one of the bad habits I found I called the comedian.
And the comedian is someone in conversation who gets a lot of
laughs 'cause they have jokes or they are self-deprecating.
And at first that's fun, but soon your conversation partner might crave a deeper
connection than just all the laughs.
And someone who's the comedian can use their humor like a shield,
and your conversation partner can't penetrate that shield, which
will feel frustrating to them.
You sort of feel like as the conversation partner, you're an audience kept
to a distance from the performer.
And the comedian always reminds me of crashing after a sugar high
if you eat too much chocolate.
You might just suddenly afterwards feel tired or unsatisfied.
And so you have to remember that the goal of communication is to create connection
and make a favorable impression.
So obviously you don't want someone to feel like talking to you is
exhausting because you're using humor too much in your communication style.
Matt Abrahams: I find the first point you made to be really true.
When we try to be funny, it just invokes so much stress.
So I like your reframing of, hey, this is just light banter,
and that takes pressure off.
And by taking pressure off, I think it frees us up to actually
be funnier and more connecting.
I am really curious to know, you said you found thirteen bad conversation habits.
Can you just share with us two or three more beyond the comedian?
Rachel Greenwald: Yeah, absolutely.
One of the most common bad habits people have was something I called the mirror,
and the mirror is the dynamic where whatever you say, the other person has
a similar story to mirror back to you.
Like, oh wow, same thing happened to me.
Just waiting their turn politely until you stop speaking so they can reflect
on their own relatable experience.
And that's understandable 'cause, I think, we're taught when you're younger or
maybe even in some kind of sales training programs, they teach you that you're
supposed to find a point of connection where you can relate to somebody.
But actually I find it to be the opposite.
I find that the mirror habit can deflate conversational energy or make
it feel choppy so the exchange can feel superficial and you don't feel heard.
There's all sorts of other ones like the interrupter, somebody who's
just interrupting you before you can finish your sentence and they
try to finish your sentence for you.
They're sure they already know what they're gonna say, so they
have that dirty four letter word dynamic going on, the KNOW.
And the other person just feels annoyed.
They don't feel heard.
So all these conversation bad habits are really about the feeling you
create in your conversation partner.
So whether you're trying to be the one upper or you're the humble bragger,
or any of these thirteen types that I found, you are doing yourself a
disservice because you're almost trying to impress the other person.
Like I can understand why they're behaving the way they are, but the
end result is that your conversation partner doesn't feel good talking to you.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for sharing those.
And as you were going through each of those bad communication behaviors,
I saw in my mind's eye people who do those skills and how they make me feel.
And the, the meta message of what I heard you share, Rachel, is that we
constantly have to be thinking about how we're making our conversation
partners, our coworkers, the people we're interested in dating, feel.
And not so much focus on our particular goal in that moment, which is to share
my story as soon as you share yours, and that is a wonderful reminder of
what makes for effective communication.
Be focused on the needs of the person you're talking to.
Before we end, I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask everyone.
Are you up for that, Rachel?
Rachel Greenwald: Yeah, I'd love it.
Matt Abrahams: Excellent.
I'm excited to hear your answers.
If you were to capture the best communication advice you've ever received
as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be?
Rachel Greenwald: I would call this slide title, everyone knows it but you.
What I mean by that is that you have a communication blind spot,
but you don't know what it is.
Everyone else knows and you don't.
So maybe you even have more than one blind spot, but people are terrible
judges of their own communication skills.
They either overestimate or underestimate them.
They have no idea how someone feels when talking to you.
So you're the last to know unless you ask for feedback.
So this advice is all about trying to get feedback, and it's true in dating
and friendship and business, anything.
Matt Abrahams: I didn't know where you were gonna take your slide
title, but I love the point that we have to seek out feedback.
We are not the best observers of our own communication.
So for question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Rachel Greenwald: For that question, I am going to pick someone kind of out
of the standard communication arena and point to someone named Priya Parker, who
some of you may know, others may not.
She's the author of a book that is one of my all time favorites
called The Art of Gathering.
And her work focuses on reimagining how we spend our time
together to create more meaning.
So she's not specifically in the field of communication, but she talks
a lot about setting the tone for a gathering before it even begins.
And this is a point on the continuum of communication that I think
doesn't get enough attention.
And I call that point the pre-communicating point, which is
the idea that communication actually begins in subtle ways, even before
you're in the same space with someone.
And space could be in person, or like you mentioned earlier, it
could be a digital space like Zoom.
And even email or text.
So space is broadly defined, but Priya Parker advocates that
it's important to set the tone before you interact with someone.
So is your upcoming conversation or your meeting going to be fun, or do you want
it to be serious, or is the emphasis on being productive, whatever it is.
So if you think about all the communication that happens before a
business meeting, like calendar invites, or even the first few minutes in a
Zoom window as people are logging on before the meeting begins, what if
you created a clever title for the calendar invite, or what if you played
a theme song on Zoom for the first sixty seconds that reflects whatever
your intended mood is for this meeting.
I really like her because I think in the big picture, you can have
the best communication skills on the planet, but if people aren't primed
to come in being receptive to you, it's just really a missed opportunity.
Matt Abrahams: I really like Priya's work.
I've read the book, I've heard her speak, and this notion of
setting the table, if you will, priming people is really important.
We had a wonderful discussion with Robert Cialdini about what he calls
pre-suasion, how you actually get people in the right space for you then to make
the influence requests that you have.
We don't spend enough time thinking about the context for the communication
that we're about to have and highlighting Priya Parker's work
reminds us that we need to do that.
Rachel Greenwald: We are going back to social psychology again, and if
you think about the primacy effect.
So the primacy effect is that people remember the first piece of information
they encounter, and that is better than information presented later on.
So pre-communication is difficult to master, but Priya Parker knows
how to set up future conversations for success by communicating in
advance what she hopes to accomplish.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
Question number three, what are the first three ingredients that go into
a successful communication recipe?
Rachel Greenwald: Ooh, I love that question.
The first thing that comes to mind is the expression I'm
gonna steal from real estate.
So in real estate, you probably know the advice for buying a valuable property
is location, location, location.
So I am gonna say the same as, it's similar in communication,
which is listen, listen, listen.
That is so important that it bears repeating three times.
So people, whether it's business or dating, they put so much emphasis
and communication on what to say.
But really successful communication is about active listening.
And I use the word active intentionally 'cause I don't mean just listening,
like stop talking or be quiet or let the other person speak.
But actively listening, means things like, don't plan your next response.
Don't be listening to what somebody's saying and secretly thinking about
what, how you're gonna respond.
And active listening means ask follow up questions instead of
shifting the topic back to yourself.
And probably most of all, active listening is about encouraging someone to elaborate.
Matt Abrahams: Love those ingredients.
You know, Rachel, I really thank you for taking time to be with us and give
us very specific advice on how we can connect better with coworkers, potential
romantic partners, and platonic friends.
I appreciate your time.
I appreciate your input.
Thank you.
Rachel Greenwald: Oh, you're so welcome.
Matt Abrahams: Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think
Fast Talk Smart, the podcast This episode was produced by Jenny Luna,
Ryan Campos, and me Matt Abraham's.
Our music was provided by Floyd Wonder.
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